Modeling
rmusi...@mac.com
newsgroups these days. Here you will find no advertisements or
promotions, no desperate person seeking help, just someone who has
been involved in NLP for over 20 years who is looking to dialog with
others with a similar interest. The question that I wish to raise is,
" Has NLP as a method of modeling human excellence failed? In the
beginning, and today to some extent, there is the claim that NLP is
really about modeling excellence. If this is true, then where are the
models? Read most books on NLP, and what you see are the same things
you could have found in Frogs Into Princes and Using Your Brain For a
Change. What I would have thought would be books about how to learn
music, learn a foreign language, play poker etc, which would allows us
to master these skills quicker and easier than before NLP. The fact is
that very little of this, "human excellence" has actually been modeled
and shared. Perhaps the reason is that NLP has failed to deliver on
its original promise. If talent can really be modeled, how come NLP
people don't model how to write a novel, write a best seller, then use
the power selling skills that they have mastered to make it into a
best seller?
SnIcK
I am not as familiar with NLP as you have. Although NLP consider as the
"human excellence" it requires to be "listened" and for even better results
to be individual specific to achieve excellence. I am sure you can model
successful books and write a book about excelling sales or any other desire,
however, this will be effective for the person who writes the book, not to
those who reads it.
I am sure talent can be modeled and NLP did not failed in that. However am
not sure you can implement a desired talent via a book - not for a majority
that is.
<rmusi...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1190943516.3...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
John
That's a good question and you might want to ask it again over at
It is a forum used by a whole range of people and a good number of NLP
Trainers and therapists.
Most NLP'ers don't use this group anymore.
--
John
joeg...@hotmail.co.uk
>
> - Show quoted text -
far better to try some NLP yahoo groups which don't have extensive
bias towards just SNLP whooping
John
Joe
Certainly if one has the time then go to as many different lists as
possible.
I must say having been on NLP Connections for over a year now I
wouldn't describe it as SNLP Whooping although I may have missed those
post.
I am not over keen on Whooping myself so if you could give me a few
examples I will go back and do some serious piss taking out of them.
You could have done as well if you didn't like the style.
Pop the examples on here or PM them if you like.
Thanks
--
John
Venus
Actually I think you've got a pretty good question hidden there
amongst all your wondering. The important question to me right now
about what you're asking is whether, in fact, NLP can be used to model
talent. I'm not sure that I think so. I know NLP can be used to model
"skills" and, perhaps, when someone without skills is looking at
someone sufficiently skilled it might "seem" like talent. But I think
true talent is something else -- something people are born with and
that probably can't be modeled.
I'd be curious to know what others may think about this.
Tom Vizzini
> " Has NLP as a method of modeling human excellence failed? In the
> beginning, and today to some extent, there is the claim that NLP is
> really about modeling excellence. If this is true, then where are the
> models?
Was NLP ever about human excellence? Was it ever about modeling?
No.....
Those were things that were added later by well meaning but misguided
followers.
Then it was promoted by poorly educated NLP trainers, who had learned nlp in
ony 2 or 3 weeks, to sell trainings.
The LAST thing NLP stands for is excellence.
Of it did then there would be a hint of it in the NLP training process.
Unfortunately the biggest test of knowledge to become on NLP trainer is one
simple test. Did the CHECK CLEAR?
I have been aroung NLP for 15 years or so now. I have never once seen an NLP
test. I have never once seen anyone examined for the ability to apply any
skill.
Frankly, there is no modeling in NLP at all.
If anything NLP stands for this:
It is the model that allows the ignorant to feel smart by giving them a
useless slip of paper at the end of a seminar that taught them nothing.
Then the can become master trainers of nothing and give certificates to
other ignoant people.
Great system of learning huh?
So what is NLP? It is the model of how to get people to believe that the
structure of nothing is the structure of everything.
Kind of like a really good con man.
Have fun
Tom
--
Real Skills for the Real World
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TomVizzini
www.essential-skills.com
Gold Members Area
www.essential-skils-members.com
3D Mind
Bla
>
> Actually I think you've got a pretty good question hidden there
> amongst all your wondering. The important question to me right now
> about what you're asking is whether, in fact, NLP can be used to model
> talent. I'm not sure that I think so. I know NLP can be used to model
> "skills" and, perhaps, when someone without skills is looking at
> someone sufficiently skilled it might "seem" like talent. But I think
> true talent is something else -- something people are born with and
> that probably can't be modeled.
>
> I'd be curious to know what others may think about this.
>
What is 'talent'?
Are you more talented to think in english language than me because I was
not born in english speaking country?
People usualy think of 'talent' as 'some special, over-averaged skill
that some people are born with and which can not be learned'. I don't
believe there is such thing as 'not learnable skill'. I believe there
are strategies which help to make a change in person's approach to the
skill so the skill becomes learnable to the person.
I would say that 'talents' are 'the most unconscious skills people
posess'. We are all talented in so many skills.
John
Ah Tom V, sitting on the fence as always.
One day you'll tell us what you really think about NLP.
--
John
Nic
>
> Was NLP ever about human excellence? Was it ever about modeling?
>
> No.....
>
Not quite true as Bandler and Grinder spent some time modeling Fritz
Perls, Virginia Satir and Milton Erickson.
> Those were things that were added later by well meaning but misguided
> followers.
As I recall, Dilts was into modelling from very early days as waws
Anthony Robbins
>
> Then it was promoted by poorly educated NLP trainers, who had learned nlp in
> ony 2 or 3 weeks, to sell trainings.
That is certainly true!
>
> The LAST thing NLP stands for is excellence.
That's harsh - it may be the case with some NLP trainers, but vertainly
not all. Having trained with McKenna and Breen, there was a strong
emphasis on excellence. Seems you had an unfortunate experience with the
trainers you experienced.
>
> Of it did then there would be a hint of it in the NLP training process.
> Unfortunately the biggest test of knowledge to become on NLP trainer is one
> simple test. Did the CHECK CLEAR?
Again, depends so much on the organisation you are referring to.
>
>
> So what is NLP? It is the model of how to get people to believe that the
> structure of nothing is the structure of everything.
One has to distinguish between the way it is taught in some quarters
(one of whom who uses sock puppets to post here for example) and the
original content. Unfortunately, there is a huge mismatch, but that is
no reaason to dismiss NLP.
As an analogy, many crimes have been committed by the Christian church
and its followers. That does not in any way undermine the power of
Christ's teachings. Unfortunately, as is so often the case, one has to
differentiate between the behaviours of followers/leapers onto
bandwagons and the original intent.
The benefit of NLP, in my opinion, is that it draws together, and makes
accessible to the lay person, linguistics, social anthropology of people
like Gregory Bateson, the work of Milton E, Satir and Perls etc, all
under one umbrella.
There is little that is original in NLP, rather it is a synthesis, and
it does, or at least did, include modelling.
Nick Kemp
>
> The benefit of NLP, in my opinion, is that it draws together, and makes
> accessible to the lay person, linguistics, social anthropology of people
> like Gregory Bateson, the work of Milton E, Satir and Perls etc, all
> under one umbrella.
>
> There is little that is original in NLP, rather it is a synthesis, and
> it does, or at least did, include modelling.
Lets also add Frank Farrelly to the list, who was a big influence on
Bandler and Grinder and mentioned in Frogs into Princes and whom
Bandler videod extensivelly in the early 1980s. I include modules on
his influence in current trainings
Regards
Tom Vizzini
"Nic" <nico...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:-pednReGXZ_xYZza...@bt.com...
> Tom Vizzini wrote:
>
> >
> > Was NLP ever about human excellence? Was it ever about modeling?
> >
> > No.....
> >
> Not quite true as Bandler and Grinder spent some time modeling Fritz
> Perls, Virginia Satir and Milton Erickson.
There is a difference. NLP is not about modeling. B and G claim to have USED
modeling to research and learn from people. Even at that point...what
modeling they used is never explained.
>
> > Those were things that were added later by well meaning but misguided
> > followers.
>
> As I recall, Dilts was into modelling from very early days as waws
> Anthony Robbins
Thanks, That is my point. Modeling has been around for a very long time. B
and G act as if they invented it yet.....neither has ever really taught it.
> >
> > Then it was promoted by poorly educated NLP trainers, who had learned
nlp in
> > ony 2 or 3 weeks, to sell trainings.
>
> That is certainly true!
> >
> > The LAST thing NLP stands for is excellence.
>
> That's harsh - it may be the case with some NLP trainers, but vertainly
> not all. Having trained with McKenna and Breen, there was a strong
> emphasis on excellence. Seems you had an unfortunate experience with the
> trainers you experienced.
Oh come on Nic..... 600 person seminars and no test....where was the
excellence?
> >
> > Of it did then there would be a hint of it in the NLP training process.
> > Unfortunately the biggest test of knowledge to become on NLP trainer is
one
> > simple test. Did the CHECK CLEAR?
>
> Again, depends so much on the organisation you are referring to.
I would love you to post or refer me to the NLP practitioner test.
> >
>
> >
> > So what is NLP? It is the model of how to get people to believe that the
> > structure of nothing is the structure of everything.
>
> One has to distinguish between the way it is taught in some quarters
> (one of whom who uses sock puppets to post here for example) and the
> original content. Unfortunately, there is a huge mismatch, but that is
> no reaason to dismiss NLP.
I disagree. NLP has failed to live up to the hype and promises.
Keep in mind I was very excited about NLP for many years. I ignored the
cracks in the veneer. I looked past the underlying stench. O pretended that
I was being educated instead of indoctrinated.
The ugly truth is this. At its core NLP has some ok stuff. The examination
of lingustics and structure are interesting. That ended in around 1975 and
has not moved forward one bit. That is OK.
Then the promoters got inoved and NLP turned into a circus sideshow.
>
> As an analogy, many crimes have been committed by the Christian church
> and its followers. That does not in any way undermine the power of
> Christ's teachings. Unfortunately, as is so often the case, one has to
> differentiate between the behaviours of followers/leapers onto
> bandwagons and the original intent.
I can agree with that. I fits with what I would like to believe. All fo that
os 30 years in the past and here we are now.
We have a ulti level marketing scheme that creates a pyramind of
certificates with zero quality.
>
> The benefit of NLP, in my opinion, is that it draws together, and makes
> accessible to the lay person, linguistics, social anthropology of people
> like Gregory Bateson, the work of Milton E, Satir and Perls etc, all
> under one umbrella.
I used to beleive that. What I now believe is that what we have ais a
watered down version of those people's ideas and tools. In todays' model of
NLP you can barely find any of them.
>
> There is little that is original in NLP, rather it is a synthesis, and
> it does, or at least did, include modelling.
That is the problem. My opinion is that happened because uneducated people
where give certifications and set up as authorities. Then they fucked the
whole thing up..AND...it was only really just ok in the first place.
Tom Vizzini
"Nick Kemp" <nickke...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191314914.6...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Lets also add Frank Farrelly to the list, who was a big influence on
> Bandler and Grinder and mentioned in Frogs into Princes and whom
> Bandler videod extensivelly in the early 1980s. I include modules on
> his influence in current trainings
Nick.......you are an example of everything that is wrong with NLP.
You are an uneducated hanger on who tries to benefit by association.
You are a liar and a con man due to you dishonest promotion antics.
Clear enough.
Nick Kemp
> "Nick Kemp" <nickkemp2...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Dear Tom
Once again thanks for your kind comments
Good luck with your and Kim's trainings
Warm Regards
Nick Kemp
see www.nlpmp3.com which freely promotes different schools of NLP and
a variety of NLP trainers with a range of views
rmusi...@mac.com
So, Nick why are there the lack of new models if NLP is capable of
modeling. I actually wish the original premise of NLP was true, but I
can't find much evidence. There are a number of books on modeling by
authors such as Robert Dilts, and David Gordon. Grinder claims to
teach his version of modeling, yet so few new models exist.
Nick Kemp
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have no idea of how many models there are on the planet that have
been created through NLP, "new" or otherwise.
Both the individuals you mention have IMO done good work, but I don't
have any personal experience of training with Grinder so
I can't comment on what he has done
Nick Kemp
>
> - Show quoted text -
BTW I am interviewing Steve Andreas later this month for NLP and
modelling is one of the areas we will be discussiing. The interview
will appear on www.nlpmp3.com in due course
Venus
Certainly I am not more talented than you because I was born in an
English-speaking country and you were not. However, I *would* hazard a
guess that you are more skilled in learning languages than I am
because you have demonstrated by your post that you have learned to
communicate in (at least) a second language while I have not (yet!).
I will agree with you that any skill one human can learn another can
learn as well. And I'll even agree with you that the strategies that a
person uses to learn a skill can be learned by another. Heck, I'd even
go so far as to say that *most* talents are unconscious skills. But,
there is a limit to that.
Nowadays many folks can run a 4-minute mile and probably many more
*could* with the proper training. But there are lots of other folks
out there ... due to age or physical limitations or who-knows-what
could *never* learn to run a 4-minute mile, no matter if they adopted
the learning strategies of someone who has mastered it.
For instance, I've been told that if I really wanted to I could learn
to master the guitar, but I doubt it. (And I'm not just talking about
strumming along here, folks, but actually mastering the instrument.
Like say Eric Clapton or Henry Garza.) Maybe because my brain wasn't
"turned on" to learning music at a critical stage in my development.
Maybe because I'm just not wired right to ever become that co-
ordinated with my hands. Who knows?
And even if were to learn the strategies of a Mozart to create music,
or a Picasso or Van Gogh to create art, there would undoubtedly be
something missing in the mix inside of me to be able to actually pull
those creations out of the ether like they did.
And let's not even talk about math, or engineering or architecture. My
brain just doesn't work that way.
Now, that's not to say I couldn't apply the learning strategies of
folks who've mastered those fields to learn to become *better* at
them. I'm certain that I could. But for most of us, it's just not
likely we'll ever become that accomplished.
Because even if I learn Eric Clapton's strategies for mastering the
guitar, I'm still not going to have the luxury of putting in the years
and years of practice or of having the other experiences that Eric has
had that allowed him to become who he is.
But the truth of the matter is that *I don't want to be like those
people!*
After all, I'm me. I want to master being me. And if i got side-
tracked into mastering them (like copying Richard or John, for
instance) well, then, I wouldn't be true to who I AM.
Hey, I don't want to be Virginia Satir or Fritz Perls fer cryin' out
loud. I want to be ME. The best ME I can be.
I know it flies in the face of some of the NLP presuppositions, but I
have a little saying I like to use. It goes "Everybody can't do
everything." Because, let's face it, even if I *could* learn to hear
and write music like Mozart, I couldn't learn to be Van Gogh and
Picasso and Fritz Perls and Virginia Satir and Richard Feynman and
Albert Einstein (and any other genius you can think of) at the same
time. I just wouldn't have time in this life to do it.
But, back to my point. When it comes to talent I think perhaps there
might be something more in the mix than even nature and nurture.
Clearly it's something I can't put my finger on right now. But that
doesn't mean it's not real. It just means a little more exploration is
called for.
But I leave that up to some other genius to figure out. Me, I mostly
just like to think about things.
Venus
Nic
> Snip
>
> Thanks, That is my point. Modeling has been around for a very long time. B
> and G act as if they invented it yet.....neither has ever really taught it.
>
We were taught it on a MAster Prac run by Bandler, McKenna and Breen in
2004.
>
>>
>>That's harsh - it may be the case with some NLP trainers, but vertainly
>>not all. Having trained with McKenna and Breen, there was a strong
>>emphasis on excellence. Seems you had an unfortunate experience with the
>>trainers you experienced.
>
>
> Oh come on Nic..... 600 person seminars and no test....where was the
> excellence?
How does testing equate with excellence? Testing may, if done correctly,
act as quality assurance - on the other hand, I have been to shocking
training where testing was fixed to preserve the trainer's reputation
(they had to dramatically lower the pass mark to get enough people to
pass!) I have also been to some very good training with no testing.
Where I do believe there should be independently scrutinised testing is
in training trainers.
>
>
>
>
> I disagree. NLP has failed to live up to the hype and promises.
NLP as it was in the earky days had a lot of good content.
Unfortunately, a lot of it is complex and requires hard studying. A lot
of teh linguistics material of Korbyski (Spelling), for example.
Because people are lazy, much of this has been left out by many training
organisations, partly I suspect because teh trainers didn't understand it!
>
>
> The ugly truth is this. At its core NLP has some ok stuff. The examination
> of lingustics and structure are interesting. That ended in around 1975 and
> has not moved forward one bit. That is OK.
>
>
>
>>As an analogy, many crimes have been committed by the Christian church
>>and its followers. That does not in any way undermine the power of
>>Christ's teachings. Unfortunately, as is so often the case, one has to
>>differentiate between the behaviours of followers/leapers onto
>>bandwagons and the original intent.
>
>
> I can agree with that. I fits with what I would like to believe. All fo that
> os 30 years in the past and here we are now.
But the material is still around, for those who want to search it out
and doa little work themselves.
>
> We have a ulti level marketing scheme that creates a pyramind of
> certificates with zero quality.
That is certainly true.
>
>
>>The benefit of NLP, in my opinion, is that it draws together, and makes
>>accessible to the lay person, linguistics, social anthropology of people
>>like Gregory Bateson, the work of Milton E, Satir and Perls etc, all
>>under one umbrella.
>
>
> I used to beleive that. What I now believe is that what we have ais a
> watered down version of those people's ideas and tools. In todays' model of
> NLP you can barely find any of them.
True, and as I have written above, much of the early material is still
available. I can accept that things evolve but when I look at the early
material and look at a lot of the training that is offered, I shudder.
For example, how many, McKenna apart, include much of Milton Erickson's
material in their training? How many include any meaningful linguistics,
other than the superficial material on generalisations, distortions and
deletions? How many include meta-programs in any depth?
And how many actually understand what they are teaching? I hear trainers
talk about people carrying out 'state changes'; how is that useful
unless the underlying drivers are dealt with. Transactionl Analysis
(another area polluted by the bandwagon jumping opportunists) cottoned
on to this in the late '70s.
And why, when toild by a student 'I can't make pictures', do trainers
parrot the same response 'Of course you can, you just can't see them!'
That is both utter crap and very patronising; what it really menas is
that most NLP training is geared to visuals and many trainers cant deal
with the other sub-modalities
>
>
> That is the problem. My opinion is that happened because uneducated people
> where give certifications and set up as authorities. Then they fucked the
> whole thing up..AND...it was only really just ok in the first place.
>
I don't disagree with you, on much of what you write - just trying to
be objective about it.
All the very best
Nic
Tom Vizzini
> Tom Vizzini wrote:
>
> > Snip
> >
> > Thanks, That is my point. Modeling has been around for a very long time.
B
> > and G act as if they invented it yet.....neither has ever really taught
it.
> >
> We were taught it on a MAster Prac run by Bandler, McKenna and Breen in
> 2004.
OK on a master prac.....so you spent an hour on it tops. That is time to
talk 'about' it but not to teach it.
My point is that modeling has gotten no more than lip service in NLP.
> How does testing equate with excellence?
And there is the problem. Tests are not perfect. Even trainers can cheat
using them. They are a way to at least verify some standard knowledge.
Testing may, if done correctly,
> act as quality assurance - on the other hand, I have been to shocking
> training where testing was fixed to preserve the trainer's reputation
> (they had to dramatically lower the pass mark to get enough people to
> pass!) I have also been to some very good training with no testing.
>
> Where I do believe there should be independently scrutinised testing is
> in training trainers.
Lousy teachers need to fix tests. Tha is about the lousy teachers not about
the test itself. You do validate what I have been saying though. If the
check clears then they get certified.
>
> True, and as I have written above, much of the early material is still
> available. I can accept that things evolve but when I look at the early
> material and look at a lot of the training that is offered, I shudder.
> For example, how many, McKenna apart, include much of Milton Erickson's
> material in their training? How many include any meaningful linguistics,
> other than the superficial material on generalisations, distortions and
> deletions? How many include meta-programs in any depth?
I think that is a whole other problem. The truth is that your can't SELL
linguistics. It is boring. It is the old " Follow the money trail" motive.
Ask those who have just learned NLP in the last 10 years and you get a much
different definition of NLP. NLP is everything. That is what they are told.
>
> And how many actually understand what they are teaching? I hear trainers
> talk about people carrying out 'state changes'; how is that useful
> unless the underlying drivers are dealt with. Transactionl Analysis
> (another area polluted by the bandwagon jumping opportunists) cottoned
> on to this in the late '70s.
>
> And why, when toild by a student 'I can't make pictures', do trainers
> parrot the same response 'Of course you can, you just can't see them!'
> That is both utter crap and very patronising; what it really menas is
> that most NLP training is geared to visuals and many trainers cant deal
> with the other sub-modalities
It sounds like we are on the same page here. This is the exact reason that
no one takes NLP seriously outside of the NLP students or promoters.
> >
> >
> > That is the problem. My opinion is that happened because uneducated
people
> > where give certifications and set up as authorities. Then they fucked
the
> > whole thing up..AND...it was only really just ok in the first place.
> >
> I don't disagree with you, on much of what you write - just trying to
> be objective about it.
All of the things you bring up are the reasons that I don't want to be
associated with NLP anymore. After 15 years I am ashamed that I was ever
associate with it.
I wonder if there is any hope for the future or if we can look forward to
more outlandish claims and less actual learning and quality.
Take care
joeg...@hotmail.co.uk
> "Nic" <nicoli...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
maybe you could explore modelling a good website design and check for
typos and broken links?
Tom Vizzini
<joeg...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1191505408....@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> maybe you could explore modelling a good website design and check for
> typos and broken links?
Maybe you could tell me what you found and then I could fix it.
Yes my website sucks. It has plenty of flaws. It also has plenty of free
information for anyone to get.
I guess it depends on your focus
aHve fun
Tom
--
joeg...@hotmail.co.uk
> <joegor...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:1191505408....@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > maybe you could explore modelling a good website design and check for
> > typos and broken links?
>
> Maybe you could tell me what you found and then I could fix it.
>
> Yes my website sucks. It has plenty of flaws. It also has plenty of free
> information for anyone to get.
>
> I guess it depends on your focus
>
> aHve fun
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Gold Members Areawww.essential-skils-members.com
> 3D Mind
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Many professionals focus on good clear presentations that suggest a
degree of quality. The quality of your site and interactions here will
no doubt send a message to potential customers that either you don't
care about detail or you don't have the requisite skills to affect
good presentations. No doubt you will retort with some response that
its of no significance and you really don't care about such matters
Tom Vizzini
<joeg...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1191511989.3...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 4, 3:18 pm, "Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote:
>
> Many professionals focus on good clear presentations that suggest a
> degree of quality.
How many?
The quality of your site and interactions here will
> no doubt send a message to potential customers that either you don't
> care about detail or you don't have the requisite skills to affect
> good presentations.
Opinions differ.
No doubt you will retort with some response that
> its of no significance and you really don't care about such matters
And yet here you are reponding.
Again....it all depends where your focus is.
--
Nic
> no doubt send a message to potential customers that either you don't
> care about detail or you don't have the requisite skills to affect
> good presentations. No doubt you will retort with some response that
> its of no significance and you really don't care about such matters
>
Shouldn't that be effect, not affect? The former means to impact upon,
the latter to create or bring about.
joeg...@hotmail.co.uk
without also those typos Tom may have avoided having his " 3D Mind
research credibility" called into serious question and saved a him lot
of embarassment
IMO No excuses for sloppiness, but I'll leave the bickering to you
guys as I have real work to attend to
Tom Vizzini
LOL!!!! I guess we should use his own standards on him.....
Tom Vizzini
<joeg...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1191515705.1...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> without also those typos Tom may have avoided having his " 3D Mind
> research credibility" called into serious question and saved a him lot
> of embarassment
Funny.....I don't remember any enbarrassment....Did I miss out?
joeg...@hotmail.co.uk
> <joegor...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
Ok I get you believe how good you are and don't want any feedback that
conflicts with your current perceptions
I'll therefore leave you to add to your 1149 posts that you have made
here to date, mostly attacking nlp and those associated with it.
and yes you are missing out, but are just not sharp enough to know
about it
Nic
Yes there are flaws in NLP: but it has also helped people.
Yes there are flaws in 3D Mind: but it has also helped people.
There is no modality that is a cure-all, otherwise we'd all do it and
everyone would be healed; hmmm... then we'd have no clients!
All the best
Nic
joeg...@hotmail.co.uk
> <joegor...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:1191505408....@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > maybe you could explore modelling a good website design and check for
> > typos and broken links?
>
> Maybe you could tell me what you found and then I could fix it.
>
> Yes my website sucks. It has plenty of flaws. It also has plenty of free
> information for anyone to get.
>
> I guess it depends on your focus
>
> aHve fun
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Gold Members Areawww.essential-skils-members.com
> 3D Mind
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Interestingly most of the site's main links don't e work - calendar,
articles,forums etc
but of course the paypal link to pay $60 every 90 days to learn "Tom's
wisdom" works absolutely fine.
joeg...@hotmail.co.uk
>
> - Show quoted text -
PS Here is a 3D Mind site where the links do actually work with better
graphics too - http://3dmind.org
gnr
Tom Vizzini
<joeg...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1191654709....@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 4, 3:18 pm, "Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote:
> > <joegor...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> >
> Interestingly most of the site's main links don't e work - calendar,
> articles,forums etc
> but of course the paypal link to pay $60 every 90 days to learn "Tom's
> wisdom" works absolutely fine.
LOL! The site was in the middle fof being upgraded. All links work
perfectly.
Of course this has nothing to do with the subject being discussed but it
seems you really don't have any knowledge to add to that.
Tom
--
joeg...@hotmail.co.uk
> <joegor...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:1191654709....@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Oct 4, 3:18 pm, "Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote:
> > > <joegor...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> > Interestingly most of the site's main links don't e work - calendar,
> > articles,forums etc
> > but of course the paypal link to pay $60 every 90 days to learn "Tom's
> > wisdom" works absolutely fine.
>
> LOL! The site was in the middle fof being upgraded. All links work
> perfectly.
>
> Of course this has nothing to do with the subject being discussed but it
> seems you really don't have any knowledge to add to that.
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Gold Members Areawww.essential-skils-members.com
> 3D Mind
>
>
>
> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Unless the links are to this page which says
"Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage
Most likely causes:
You are not connected to the Internet.
The website is encountering problems.
There might be a typing error in the address.
What you can try:
Diagnose Connection Problems
More information
This problem can be caused by a variety of issues, including:
Internet connectivity has been lost.
The website is temporarily unavailable.
The Domain Name Server (DNS) is not reachable.
The Domain Name Server (DNS) does not have a listing for the website's
domain.
If this is an HTTPS (secure) address, click Tools, click Internet
Options, click Advanced, and check to be sure the SSL and TLS
protocols are enabled under the security section. "
5 out of 7 primary links don't work and report error messages. Perhaps
need need some essential skills in basic website creation?
lol
Tom Vizzini
LOL! You are a complete fucktard..... Now try thinking....Look at this link
www.essential-skils-members.com
See anything wrong?
Now try this link
www.essential-skills-members.com
Geeze one thing I do have to do is spot my typos better. Any reasonable
person would have spotted the typo. most fucktards might miss it.
have fun
Tom
--
Real Skills for the Real World
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TomVizzini
www.essential-skills.com
Gold Members Area
www.essential-skills-members.com
3D Mind
<joeg...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
joeg...@hotmail.co.uk
> LOL! You are a complete fucktard..... Now try thinking....Look at this link
>
> www.essential-skils-members.com
>
> See anything wrong?
>
> Now try this link
>
> www.essential-skills-members.com
>
> Geeze one thing I do have to do is spot my typos better. Any reasonable
> person would have spotted the typo. most fucktards might miss it.
>
> have fun
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Real Skills for the Real Worldhttp://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TomVizziniwww.essential-skills.com
> Gold Members Areawww.essential-skills-members.com
> 3D Mind
>
>
>
>
> > > - Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Unless the links are to this page which says
>
> > "Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage
>
> > Most likely causes:
> > You are not connected to the Internet.
> > The website is encountering problems.
> > There might be a typing error in the address.
>
> > What you can try:
> > Diagnose Connection Problems
>
> > More information
>
> > This problem can be caused by a variety of issues, including:
>
> > Internet connectivity has been lost.
> > The website is temporarily unavailable.
> > The Domain Name Server (DNS) is not reachable.
> > The Domain Name Server (DNS) does not have a listing for the website's
> > domain.
> > If this is an HTTPS (secure) address, click Tools, click Internet
> > Options, click Advanced, and check to be sure the SSL and TLS
> > protocols are enabled under the security section. "
>
> > 5 out of 7 primary links don't work and report error messages. Perhaps
> > need need some essential skills in basic website creation?
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Your domain http://www.essential-skills.com/ has numerous broken
links. Yes http://www.essential-skils-members.com/ does work, but why
not take the time to properly fix your site?
Is the swearing part of your attempted rapport skills you advertise?
Also little wonder previous 3DMinders are reported as having "gone
religious" and totally lost the plot!
Tom Vizzini
<joeg...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1191854997.8...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Your domain http://www.essential-skills.com/ has numerous broken
> links. Yes http://www.essential-skils-members.com/ does work, but why
> not take the time to properly fix your site?
>
> Is the swearing part of your attempted rapport skills you advertise?
Why would I want rapport with a fucktard? Bottom line is that you just want
something to complain about. Since you are a fucktard, you can't really come
up with much. So you whine about broken links on a website.
You can't even manage to trim you posts down to a readable size....
>
> Also little wonder previous 3DMinders are reported as having "gone
> religious" and totally lost the plot!
LOL! Here is what people using the 3D mind are doing...Getting results. I
notice that there are RARELY any NLP results posted anywhere by people who
claim to be using NLP.
I belong to 4 NLP lists. In the last 30 days there has not been one post on
any of them by people USING NLP to accomplish anything. Lots of talking
ABOUT NLP but no stories of success.
On the other hand. The 3D mind list is packed full of posts from people
USING the skill instead of just talking ABOUT the skill.
Our other list have post about USING rapport and USING anchoring and USING
embedded commands to get their outcomes.
Here...well there was the porn spam that was interesting.....
You can have the last word fucktard.
I am not sure whay I like that word so much :)
Tom
--
Real Skills for the Real World
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TomVizzini
joeg...@hotmail.co.uk
> <joegor...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:1191854997.8...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Your domainhttp://www.essential-skills.com/has numerous broken
> > not take the time to properly fix your site?
>
> > Is the swearing part of your attempted rapport skills you advertise?
>
> Why would I want rapport with a fucktard? Bottom line is that you just want
> something to complain about. Since you are a fucktard, you can't really come
> up with much. So you whine about broken links on a website.
>
> You can't even manage to trim you posts down to a readable size....
>
>
>
> > Also little wonder previous 3DMinders are reported as having "gone
> > religious" and totally lost the plot!
>
> LOL! Here is what people using the 3D mind are doing...Getting results. I
> notice that there are RARELY any NLP results posted anywhere by people who
> claim to be using NLP.
>
> I belong to 4 NLP lists. In the last 30 days there has not been one post on
> any of them by people USING NLP to accomplish anything. Lots of talking
> ABOUT NLP but no stories of success.
>
> On the other hand. The 3D mind list is packed full of posts from people
> USING the skill instead of just talking ABOUT the skill.
>
> Our other list have post about USING rapport and USING anchoring and USING
> embedded commands to get their outcomes.
>
> Here...well there was the porn spam that was interesting.....
>
> You can have the last word fucktard.
>
> I am not sure whay I like that word so much :)
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Real Skills for the Real Worldhttp://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TomVizziniwww.essential-skillls.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I do get that it is all about USING NLP forums to promote a single DVD
which is poorly recorded and can be bought of a poorly designed site!
It says absolutely all we need to know about you and the hundreds of
posts here from you show endless whining about NLP in an attempt to
flog the hapless miracle 3D Mind cure!
Truly hysterical, but just a little sad...
Tom Vizzini
<joeg...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1191857886.0...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Thanks for making my point..........This make the porn spam look on topic.
So wher eis your NLP success story??? Nevermind......You would have to
make one up.
Tom
--
joeg...@hotmail.co.uk
> <joegor...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:1191857886.0...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Oct 8, 4:30 pm, "Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote:
>
> > I do get that it is all about USING NLP forums to promote a single DVD
> > which is poorly recorded and can be bought of a poorly designed site!
> > It says absolutely all we need to know about you and the hundreds of
> > posts here from you show endless whining about NLP in an attempt to
> > flog the hapless miracle 3D Mind cure!
>
> > Truly hysterical, but just a little sad...
>
> Thanks for making my point..........This make the porn spam look on topic.
>
> So wher eis your NLP success story??? Nevermind......You would have to
> make one up.
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Gold Members Areawww.essential-skils-members.com
> 3D Mind
I took a brief look at the hundreds and hundreds of posts you have
made here and on other newsgroups, nuff said...
Tom Vizzini
<joeg...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1191863583.7...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 8, 6:08 pm, "Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote:
>
> I took a brief look at the hundreds and hundreds of posts you have
> made here and on other newsgroups, nuff said...
You really are a fucktard. Here is what I asked
" So where is your NLP success story??? Nevermind......You would have to
make one up."
Then you prove it by avoiding the question completely.
You lose....next...
--
joeg...@hotmail.co.uk
> <joegor...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:1191863583.7...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Oct 8, 6:08 pm, "Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote:
>
> > I took a brief look at the hundreds and hundreds of posts you have
> > made here and on other newsgroups, nuff said...
>
> You really are a fucktard. Here is what I asked
>
> " So where is your NLP success story??? Nevermind......You would have to
> make one up."
>
> Then you prove it by avoiding the question completely.
>
> You lose....next...
>
> --
> Gold Members Areawww.essential-skils-members.com
> 3D Mind
yawn, yawn 3D Yawn
BTW no need for anyone to answer any of your questions, which is why
most people and now myself will simply ignore you...
So much obsession about winning and losing,...
Tom Vizzini
<joeg...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1191878815.5...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> yawn, yawn 3D Yawn
>
> BTW no need for anyone to answer any of your questions, which is why
> most people and now myself will simply ignore you...
> So much obsession about winning and losing,...
Again...you ducked the question and that is very telling
here is is again
" So where is your NLP success story???
Let me offer you this that I recieved today:
I could tell you twenty stories of how your work has changed my life and
that of those around me. I went out with a girl this weekend. 25 gorgeous. I
knew there was something there. I stayed neutral while I waited for it to
surface just like you guys taught me. She told me she had been raped when
she was 6. I knew exactly what to say to her. Later that weekend I
disassociated sex and pain for her. Thamkyou for everything my friend. You
gave me permission to live again with that wonderfully playful hand of
yours.
Andrew
You might not like me but Kim and I have taught poeple from all over the
world amazing skills to improve their livesAND the lives of the people
around them.
What have you done?
Nothing but whine about web site links
Tom
--
troll318666
Poke 'im with that stick again and see what else he says...! XD
joeg...@hotmail.co.uk
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks but its a waste of time, I suspect he actually has a clinical
condition that contributes to his behaviour
also it wouldn't surprise me if all these "convenient testimonials"
that appear, are also not what they seem...
He knows nothing about me or "what I have done" in business,,,
The lack of care to detail on the site and on his youtube material
really tells as much of a tale as the fact that he doesn't even
realise how poor he presents himself and how most people seem to now
take him (or the ludicrous claims about the wonder DVD) seriously!
as someone once said "wrestle with pigs and you get dirty" so I leave
him to continue his lamentable trail of hundreds of postings trying to
sell the DVD and hook people into actually paying for his words of
wisdom.
Its hysterical that somebody who is trying to sell rapport workshops
has a total inability to create rapport as evidenced by years and
years of posting online.
Now that is FUNNY!
I've got a conference to organise, so thats me out of here for a
while
lol
troll318666
someone has legitimate constructive criticism he goes on the offensive
spewing profanities. His marketing plan reminds me of a car with the
gas pedal floored yet the parking brake is on...(Doh!)... 8P
joeg...@hotmail.co.uk
>
> - Show quoted text -
The tragedy is that he will probably never change judging from his
online behaviour. I asked around and I can't find anyone across any
school of NLP or Hypnosis who has any regard for Tom or 3D Mind. There
is little point responding to his attempts to draw people into
conversation either as there really is not linguistic awareness or
sensory acuity as demonstrated by his product, web posting and
dreadful website.
Andrew T. Austin
an American oceanographer.
For the past 15 years Curtis Ebbesmeyer has been tracking nearly 30,000
plastic bath toys that were released into the Pacific Ocean when a container
was washed off a cargo ship.
Some of the ducks, known as Friendly Floatees, are expected to reach Britain
after a journey of nearly 17,000 miles, having crossed the Arctic Ocean
frozen into pack ice, bobbed the length of Greenland and been carried down
the eastern seaboard of the United States.
Mr Ebbesmeyer, who is based in Seattle, said yesterday that those that had
not been trapped in circulating currents in the North Pacific, crushed by
icebergs or blown ashore in Japan are bobbing across the Atlantic on the
Gulf Stream...
...The ducks began life in a Chinese factory and were being shipped to the
US from Hong Kong when three 40ft containers fell into the Pacific during a
storm on January 29, 1992. Two thirds of them floated south through the
tropics, landing months later on the shores of Indonesia, Australia and
South America. But 10,000 headed north and by the end of the year were off
Alaska and heading back westwards. It took three years for the ducks to
circle east to Japan, past the original drop site and then back to Alaska on
a current known as the North Pacific Gyre before continuing north towards
the Arctic..."
More of this here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1996553.ece
And also:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=464768&in_page_id=1770
(watch out for that word wrap)
Regards,
Andrew T. Austin
http://www.integraleyemovementtherapy.com
http://www.23NLPeople.com
"Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:h4SdnUulPI9K_5fa...@adelphia.com...
Tom Vizzini
14 of 15 posts off topic and containing nothing but flaming and complaining.
<joeg...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1191953694.7...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...