Re: Altfeld eats crow again..3d Mind Comes through
Joe Bloggs
"Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:LZCdnck68O7...@adelphia.com...
> I posted this once but maybe this subject line will get more attention. I
> wouldn't make such a deal of this but Altfeld flamed me for a week over
> this. Do you think he will ever get tired of being wrong? Do you think he
> will ever apologize? I doubt it on both counts.
>
> <mindma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1111260684.0...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > OK I only think it is fair to write about my experience with the 3-d
> > Mind and my original issue, which was about being uncomfortable and
> > anxious around people.
> >
> > I made a statement that the 3-D mind does not work on my problem and
> > that it only offered a temporary patch that lasts only as long as I can
> > think about it.
> >
> > Tom replied saying that I was doing it wrong....
> >
> > He was absolutely correct.
> >
> > So I just thought it was fair to let you know that I was wrong about
> > 3-D mind. Tom... you've made a believer out of me.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > -Mindmagick
>
> Nicely done. To refresh everyone's memory here is the claim I made on
> 2/11/2005:
>
> "Then you are not doing it correctly. This is a perfect example of
> something that the 3-D Mind would work wonderfully on. The reason that
the
> 3-D Mind sometimes does not seem to work is because the symptoms seem more
> easily accessible than the belief that drives them. If all you do is take
> care of symptoms you have not done anything to take care of the problem."
> ..........
>
> The reason it was so easy to make that statement is because I know the 3D
> Mind Process and I know how to trouble shoot it. The 3D Mind is a simple
and
> powerful STRUCTURE that forces the brain to actually work differently. No
> magic dust or hocus pocus. Just easy process.
>
> But wait.....here is the brutal attack from Jon Altfeld:
>
> -Refusing to face the music publically, Tom says the customer is doing it
> wrong...
>
> -A customer stated on this public forum that 3D Mind did not work for
> them. Instead of dealing with this in the public forum that it was
> raised in -- asking good questions of them like you always suggest
> people should do -- you told them they were wrong (That's pathetic).
>
> -However -- I do NOT believe it appropriate for Tom to say "you're doing
> it wrong" without first gathering better information from you (that's an
> incredibly poor behavior to observe in a trainer -- the FIRST thing
> anyone should do in learning more about a problem is to ask better
> questions & gather high quality information).
>
> -Bullshit redirection, Tom, and furthermore, it's a bullshit suggestion.
> Hard for you to give advice? Hard for them to take it? Which do you
> mean? Hard for you to give advice and still get to feel like "you're
> always right?" I think the latter is much more likely.
>
> -3D Mind challenged in public!
> 3D Mind didn't work for customer!
> 3D Mind publically called temporary and useless -- and author refuses
public
> response.
>
> -Apparently it is beyond your ability to spell, let alone communicate
> without obfuscation. Blame it on your voice recognition software if you
> must. You were a poor speller even before you used voice recognition
> software.
> .......
>
> Now lets read again what Mindmagic said :
> "Tom replied saying that I was doing it wrong.... He was absolutely
> correct."
>
> OK Jon...I will accept your public apology now.....Maybe after you swallow
> the crow you just ate. The reframe for this should be hilarious.
I expect Jon Altfucker to come out and publically appologize now too. Step
up Altfucker and face the music. You
started trash talking Tom and accusing him of shying away from a public
complaint, and now that all has been
resolved and the initial customer has been served, when can we expect you to
be a man of your word?
Oh wait, this is the same Altfat that broke his own rules:
http://tinyurl.com/6lhm5
Read all about Altfeld the hypocrite!
Domden W Nallmon
going to come out with next.
Tom Vizzini
Now to gloat.....Here is what Mindmagic also said:
"I've been to several NLP practitioners in the NYC area, and none have
helped so far. The only reason I'm not currently searching for a live
consultation is financial. I've run out of cash and most of these guys
aren't cheap! "
..........
Now take note.....Mindmagic did not have to pay ANY additional money to
anyone to get help. Better than that. After learning the 3D Mind we was able
to fix several other problems ON HIS OWN! He wisely took advantage of the 3D
Mind private forum that every customer who has the 3D Mind tapes is invited
to for...FREE :)
I look forward to his being able to help others on the list now that he has
had this experience and the help of several others on the 3D Mind List.
So the bottom line?
I was right...again :)
Kim and I deliver to our customers....as promised
RESULTS! What were they again?
"After joining the 3-d mind group and re-educating myself on the
process, I have made a deep level change that has held up to this very
day and still continues to grow the more interactions I have with
people."
JUST DAMN! That is a great result. I love when people take charge of their
own life and get results. Even if I don't spell perfectly or type
perfcectly.....the results speak for themselves :)
I wonder how long I will have to wait for that apology Jon?
Now what was the website again?
3D Mind www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043
--
Tom Vizzini
Real Skills for the Real World
www.essential-skills.com
New Gold Members Area www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1056
3D Mind www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043
UnKaH
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
You suck, Hahahahahahahahahahaha.
In coming message, The big giant head says
Alt-bloat-field, YOU SUCK and so do your skills.
You know nothing, rat bastard, son of a bitch.
YOU OWE SOMEONE AN APOLOGY.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Tom Vizzini
"Joe Bloggs" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:By40e.92182$i6.34928@edtnps90...
>
>
> I expect Jon Altfucker to come out and publically appologize now too. Step
> up Altfucker and face the music. You
> started trash talking Tom and accusing him of shying away from a public
> complaint, and now that all has been
> resolved and the initial customer has been served, when can we expect you
to
> be a man of your word?
You know it was not enough for Altfeld to attack me. He had to dredge up
garbage from 10 years ago to attack me. What that means to me is that
Altfeld just waits for opportunities to make personal attacks for his own
personal reasons. He doesn't care about Mindmagic. He just cares about
attacking me.
I have said this before and I will say it again. When I got into this
business I looked forward to meeting some great people who were also
training. Instead I met a group of the most disfunctional people ever.
These masters of NLP were childish backstabbing babies. I never met a group
of more socially retarded people.
Once you are on the inside of this business you get to see and hear the real
stories and actions of these people.
Altfeld is a shining example of this idiocy.
Not all are like this. But the ones who are would shock you.
So yes I do expect an apology from Altfeld. I want an apology for his
treatnment of me and for him to admit that the 3D mind works as promised.
It should be interesting
Tom
Robert
> >
> > He was absolutely correct.
That sums it up for me in my book.
He did it wrong since he didnt get a lasting effect.
Thats also true for a lot of other techniques as from NLP and other
fields.
Tom knows his system, he also knows how it works, he is and was
correct to say that the coustmer did it wrong.
Sell a blender to the kitchen and then they put gravels in it and come
back to the store, I would say, they used the blender wrong.
> -A customer stated on this public forum that 3D Mind did not work for
> them. Instead of dealing with this in the public forum that it was
> raised in -- asking good questions of them like you always suggest
> people should do -- you told them they were wrong (That's pathetic).
There is no need to ask questions if you know whats going on for the
coustoumer in this case.
You need to ask questions if you dont have the proper information, if
you dont have it, you get feedback if you did or did not have it.
In this case Tom was correct to point out, he did it wrong, why wait
asking questions when it is obvious what the answer was?
To always ask questions and good so, do anyone actually do that?
That for me wouldnt suit how people use their minds in everyday
communication.
That did NLP provide me with to spot obvious ill-formed sentences.
GJ Tom.
Your best
/Robert
www.riggiomodel.biz
Tom Vizzini
"Robert" <rob...@svensknlp.nu> wrote in message
news:627ff765.05032...@posting.google.com...
>
> Sell a blender to the kitchen and then they put gravels in it and come
> back to the store, I would say, they used the blender wrong.
>
This is a brilliant point. It is indeed like having someone say that they
cannot make milkshakes with the blender. You know the blender does that.
There can be only a few problems. All of them mean that the blender is not
being used correctly.
Great analogy....
Tom
Elvis Keith Lester
Why don't you just stop with the insults about people in NLP. It is not
attractive or professional.
Again, these are your judgments, coming from your brain. It only shows what
you are thinking and it is a waste of time. Isn't it.
Stop and Think, back to how many apologies you could have or should have
given to those you have "dialogued" with. Let it go and redirect.
"Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:z4udnc6BaOA...@adelphia.com...
terran...@yahoo.com
> I have said this before and I will say it again. When I got into this
> business I looked forward to meeting some great people who were also
> training. Instead I met a group of the most disfunctional people
ever.
> These masters of NLP were childish backstabbing babies. I never met a
group
> of more socially retarded people.
>
> Once you are on the inside of this business you get to see and hear
the real
> stories and actions of these people.
>
I agree. I am always amazed at how many of these people hide behind
their trainers. Tom is out in the public eye creating new things with
no trainer to hide behind. He and Kim are helping people all over the
world but there are so many 'enlightened' trainers who can't stand the
thought of this. At the end of the day it does not matter who you
trained with but rather what can you do. It doesn't matter whether your
training program is 4 days, 7 days or 21 days - it comes down to what
you can do.
Why is this so hard to understand for many in the NLP community?
terran...@yahoo.com
You been involved with NLP for a long time so you know there is a
large degree of truth in what Tom says about the many in the NLP
community. You have had your own problems with Michael Hall ripping off
your material, right?
Tom Vizzini
"Elvis Keith Lester" <lear...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Ioe0e.203811$qB6.1...@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Tom,
> Why don't you just stop with the insults about people in NLP. It is not
> attractive or professional.
Thanks for the perfect example of what I was talking about. I don't need to
be defined by what your idea of proffesional is. If the truth is insulting
then maybe you should focus on the childish behavior of the trainers.
I was not talking about all people in NLP. That is called a generalization.
As for the insults...These ego driven wannabe's should be insulted. Some,
and you know who you are, just try to ride other people's coat tails to gain
credibility. Only to be shunned by these childlike egomaniacs when they are
caught.
I know these guys and most of them need insulted. Hell just your experience
alone with H should have taught you that.
Two who do NOT fall into this catagory are Robert Dilts and John LaValle. I
like Steve Boyley also. He has a very open mind and is a great guy. We talk
from time to time. My friend Wesley Anderson is also a great trainer and
able to deliver a great deal of knowledge.
>
> Again, these are your judgments, coming from your brain. It only shows
what
> you are thinking and it is a waste of time. Isn't it.
Of course my judgements come from my brain. Unlike some other people I know,
I do actually think for myself. Whose brain are my opinions supposed to come
from? People should think for themselves, shouldn't they?
>
> Stop and Think, back to how many apologies you could have or should have
> given to those you have "dialogued" with. Let it go and redirect.
Sorry, that is subjective. If you can find where I made a factual claim
about someone and was wrong...I would be glad to apologize.
You, on the other hand, are constantly on the attack.
Maybe it has something to do with the idea that someone, Mindmagic, went to
2 seminars you provided and did not get the results that one 70 dollars tape
got him. Well one tape and two emails in the 3D Mind Yahoo group..
That is the fun part. I did not do extensive sessions to help him out. I
just showed him where he was doing it wrong and corrected it. Then it worked
fine. Problem gone.
Lets remember the 3 NLP practitioners failed. A couple thousand dollars in
trainings with you failed. One priceless $70 video tape succeeded AND ...he
has also helped HIMSELF with several other issues on his own.
Simple to learn. Easy to use. Powerful UNDENIABLE results.
Is that insulting to say? :)
Tom Vizzini
<terran...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1111585601.3...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> I agree. I am always amazed at how many of these people hide behind
> their trainers. Tom is out in the public eye creating new things with
> no trainer to hide behind. He and Kim are helping people all over the
> world but there are so many 'enlightened' trainers who can't stand the
> thought of this.
Damn this is so true. You would be surprised at how many of them are trying
to find a way to take credit for what we have created. :)
At the end of the day it does not matter who you
> trained with but rather what can you do. It doesn't matter whether your
> training program is 4 days, 7 days or 21 days - it comes down to what
> you can do.
> Why is this so hard to understand for many in the NLP community?
It is because a $70 tape is kicking their ass. It is making $5000 trainings
a thing of the past. It is making the NLP model a thing of the past. To
admit That the 3D Mind works would destroy the community. It would make
large chunks of NLP outdated.
There are some good hearted poeple out there but they are becoming very
rare.
Many of these trainers are in the business for the ego and not for the
people they can help. Look at Altfeld. 3 Speed Seduction Trainings from Ross
Jeffries and he decides he wants to be a trainer. He takes a 3 week course
from Bandler and now, without ever seeing a single client, he begins
teaching NLP. Is that not absurd?
Helping people is what it is about for Kim and I. We spend hours a day
writing to lists and helping people for free. Just yesterday a woman was
able to walk across the millennium bridge in London after a lifetime of
phobia about bridges. After having the 3D Mind tape one day she was able to
save 40 minutes a day by being able to walk over small bridges to get to
work. Amazing.
It blows my mind how many people around the world we have been able to help
with the 3D mind. It is a daily reward that speaks much louder than money ev
er could. I never in my wildest dream imagined I would ever do something
that touched so many poeple world wide.
Thanks for the supprt Terrance,
Elvis Keith Lester
My point exactly.
> Of course my judgements come from my brain. Unlike some other people I
know,
> I do actually think for myself. Whose brain are my opinions supposed to
come
> from? People should think for themselves, shouldn't they?
It's all subjective.
Re: the person you are talking about here, who happens to be a friend of
mine,
you are mis-stating what he said, not that it matters.
> Maybe it has something to do with the idea that someone, Mindmagic, went
to
> 2 seminars you provided and did not get the results that one 70 dollars
tape
> got him. Well one tape and two emails in the 3D Mind Yahoo group..
Hopefully you won't be doing any "Sessions" especially if it deals with
"DEPRESSION".
That would be beyond what you are legally qualified to do.
> That is the fun part. I did not do extensive sessions to help him out. I
> just showed him where he was doing it wrong and corrected it. Then it
worked
> fine. Problem gone.
Here again, you are mis-leading.
"helped HIMSELF". That's one way to get around the legalalities.
As far as your "verifiable results"... why don't you inform as to what you
have you actually verified?
terran...@yahoo.com
Elvis Keith Lester wrote:
>
> Hopefully you won't be doing any "Sessions" especially if it deals
with
> "DEPRESSION".
> That would be beyond what you are legally qualified to do.
He's right Tom. Stop helping people change their life for the better
NOW! You are putting many other people out of business...
Terry
Elvis Keith Lester
Once again, you are truly hallucinating... maybe that is what you'd like to
happen.
Does "your" model use some of those very chunks?
> It is because a $70 tape is kicking their ass. It is making $5000
trainings
> a thing of the past. It is making the NLP model a thing of the past. To
> admit That the 3D Mind works would destroy the community. It would make
> large chunks of NLP outdated.
DESTROY THE COMMUNITY.
You make yourself the Judge - Tom.
You make me laugh. :>)
Load up on the presupps.
> There are some good hearted poeple out there but they are becoming very
> rare.
You seem to denote that to teach NLP, you need to "see clients". That right?
Be careful. You have been warned.
>Look at Altfeld. 3 Speed Seduction Trainings from Ross
> Jeffries and he decides he wants to be a trainer. He takes a 3 week course
> from Bandler and now, without ever seeing a single client, he begins
> teaching NLP. Is that not absurd?
Why is it that Altfeld can jerk your chain so well?
I'd say it is because you are so TRANSPARENT.
Elvis Keith Lester
community.
Hopefully those put out of business are the ones that need to be.
<terran...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1111593937.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Tom Vizzini
> Re: the person you are talking about here, who happens to be a friend of
> mine,
> you are mis-stating what he said, not that it matters.
LOL! By quoting someone it is not mis-stating what he said? On what planet?
Ahh Elfs. I suggest your friend apologize. I suggest you think before you
type.
>
> > Maybe it has something to do with the idea that someone, Mindmagic, went
> to
> > 2 seminars you provided and did not get the results that one 70 dollars
> tape
> > got him. Well one tape and two emails in the 3D Mind Yahoo group..
>
> Hopefully you won't be doing any "Sessions" especially if it deals with
> "DEPRESSION".
> That would be beyond what you are legally qualified to do.
By what LEGAL entity? By what standard? What are my quilifications? I am a
certified clinical hypnotherapist. I could see clients just about anywhere.
In Georgia, where I live, I can see anyone about anything. I don't even need
to be a therapist to do that.
Here let me share this one with you:
"I lifted over 6 1/2 years worth of depression in only 10 minutes the day
after receiving my 3D Mind tapes!"
"I had seen counselors at school, been to a couple of Meta-States trainings
in 1999 & 2000, and even
turned to religion but NOTHING STUCK for the long term."
"I received the 3D Mind tapes on Monday, March 7, 2005 and cleared up my
depression on either Tuesday or Wednesday
gato...@yahoo.com
Two of your seminars and ZERO results. He gets a tape set
and......depression gone with ZERO sessions and one day later IN TEN
MINUTES!
Damn that has to sting.....
Are you getting it yet? It is not about what you think. It is about results.
You failed to get them. I got them. What is so hard to understand?
>
> > That is the fun part. I did not do extensive sessions to help him out. I
> > just showed him where he was doing it wrong and corrected it. Then it
> worked
> > fine. Problem gone.
>
> Here again, you are mis-leading.
>
> "helped HIMSELF". That's one way to get around the legalalities.
What specific legalities are you talking about? Here is the stupid part. You
are stuck on legislation to STOP COMPETITION. What do you suggest
next....clearing out the self help sections of Barnes and Noble? Do you
suggest book burning Elfs?
The difference is this. Kim and I educate people to help themselves. I don't
have to do sessions. Is it now bad to educate people?
>
> As far as your "verifiable results"... why don't you inform as to what you
> have you actually verified?
Uhh....did you read the above from one of you OWN failed attempts?
Now because you failed, you want to try to silence me by waving some
fictitious legality in my face. What is it specifically and how does it
apply to me?
The bottom line is this. 3D mind works. You can't handle that. You would
like to supress it. Too late. It is already headed for research at a very
highly regarded university.
Elfs, you are a shining example of the lack of education in this field. Your
childish behavior and jealousy are now the standard for NLP and Meta-Stinks.
Now because you cannot compete you would try to surpress the information.
So sad
Tom Vizzini
OK one last time for elf boy.
"Elvis Keith Lester" <lear...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ysg0e.204566$qB6....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> DESTROY THE COMMUNITY.
> You make yourself the Judge - Tom.
> You make me laugh. :>)
>
> Load up on the presupps.
> > There are some good hearted poeple out there but they are becoming very
> > rare.
You are again proof of this. Maybe you should stop proving my points.
>
> You seem to denote that to teach NLP, you need to "see clients". That
right?
> Be careful. You have been warned.
Warned about what and by whom? I can legally see anyone I want in Ga. Maybe
you should not make threats. They make you look desperate and stupid. If you
cannot compete then
>
> >Look at Altfeld. 3 Speed Seduction Trainings from Ross
> > Jeffries and he decides he wants to be a trainer. He takes a 3 week
course
> > from Bandler and now, without ever seeing a single client, he begins
> > teaching NLP. Is that not absurd?
>
> Why is it that Altfeld can jerk your chain so well?
> I'd say it is because you are so TRANSPARENT.
Geeze this thread should be changes to " When Trainers Attack"
Altfeld attacked. He made charges. He was proven to be wrong. He should
apologize.
If he stops and thinks before attacking, he would not have his foot so
firmly implanted in his mouth so often.
On the other hand....you seem scared....
Tom Vizzini
Yes Terry.... These constant attacks just prove to me that we are on the
right track. When they can no longer debate the process they are left with
nothing but personal attack and threats.
Very 'proffesional' behavior? I don't think so
Have fun
Tom
--
Tom Vizzini
Real Skills for the Real World
www.essential-skills.com
New Gold Members Area www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1056
3D Mind www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043
>
> Terry
>
Hans Jager
show. People attack you in ways that are just comical and hard to understand
Tom. The ways in which they twist and turn is just not even worth the time
in my opinion. It's part of the business I guess, protecting your work and
efforts.
Hans
"Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> schreef in bericht
news:wNOdnTKpXrg...@adelphia.com...
Elvis Keith Lester
> In Georgia, where I live, I can see anyone about anything. I don't even
need
> to be a therapist to do that.
Keep it that way.
Tom Vizzini
> > In Georgia, where I live, I can see anyone about anything. I don't even
> need
> > to be a therapist to do that.
>
> Keep it that way.
Does this not embarrass you? You have degenerated to threats?
Now how about being specific. What specific LAWS are you threatening me
with? Come on elf. Lets hear it.
You are proving the childishness of this field. Am I the only one who see
this? Little boys throwing empty threats around and puffing up their
pathetic chests.
Here is a measure of things to come. Last year on this group, of the top all
subjects discussed, The 3D mind was discussed on this group more than any
other topic.
Lets get back to FACTS.
-Altfeld made charges about my business that were on the edge of slanderous.
-Altfeld Made charges about the 3D mind and the effectiveness.
-He was wrong and owes me an apology.
-A problem that someone who came to 2 of YOUR seminars with was cured with
10 minutes of 3D mind. That has to sting.
I know these are tough FACTS to face. You were ineffective. I was effective.
The results are what count.
When you don't like the results you threaten pathetic empty threats in hopes
of suppressing the 3D Mind and myself. You can't even muster a coherent
debate. You just threaten more. Even your threats lack specifics.
Again your childish behavour is an example of the NLP trainer attitude that
is a disease on the field. It is what happens when you let wannabe ake
intellectuals into a creativity driven field.
The truth is that you can't keep up. Neither you nor Altfeld can keep up.
You both just spew the same rehashed stuff from 30 years ago. The really
funny thing is that the best stuff from the 3D Mind is not even public yet.
It is only taught in the 3D Mind Prac seminars and will be out on the 3D
Mind Prac videos. But even more than that there is even newer stuff that is
not included in the videos.
The results we are getting that is kicking your ass is the OLDEST 3D Mind
technology. Doesn't that just kick ya in the groin?
You guys are so far behind you will never catch up. You don't even
understand the basic process that is public now. You will never get the full
concept because you are mimicks. Not one original idea between you.
I don't say these things to brag. Just to let you know what the future
holds. Threaten all you want but I will go anywhere I want to teach and help
clients. I am here to stay. The snowball is rolling and growing so it is
best if you get out of the way.
You have made...obsolete.
Tom Vizzini
"Hans Jager" <hansjag...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:d1s8m2$fbe$1...@reader13.wxs.nl...
> What amazes me is how these discussions are so ridiculous it's like a
comedy
> show. People attack you in ways that are just comical and hard to
understand
> Tom. The ways in which they twist and turn is just not even worth the time
> in my opinion. It's part of the business I guess, protecting your work and
> efforts.
>
> Hans
Hi Hans,
Hey....they are the best advertisement I have. The best advertisement for me
us that I am NOT them LOL!!
The reason it is comical is that their attacks are based in fear and envy.
There is no logic to them.
But each time the twist and turn they shorten the rope. Notice that their
posts get shorter and shorter because they have trapped themselves in a
corner. Elfs last post was what...3 words.
It is because the promary fact is that Kim and I succeeded with a $70 one
hour video where he failed with multiple trainings that someone invested
thousands of dollars in.
Facts sting :)
I know these posts seem arrogant but he facts are the facts.
Have fun
Tom
Jonathan Altfeld
>Lets get back to FACTS.
Wish you would actually post even one.
>-Altfeld made charges about my business that were on the edge of slanderous.
Quote, in simple terms, the charges about your business that were on the
edge of slanderous -- WITHOUT your BS twists & turns. Quote my text and
any statutes. I made no slanderous charges. I stated you were not
willing to answer someone's questions in the public forum in which Terry
raised those questions. That was true and remained & remains true. All
you posted was a judgement that he was doing it wrong, followed by yet
another premature judgement that he wasn't your customer, followed by
more posturing and testimonials.
Now THAT'S getting back to facts.
>-Altfeld Made charges about the 3D mind and the effectiveness.
Where specifically? I know it suits your straw man argument to think I
did, but I did not. Anywhere. Show the list exactly, without dancing
around the issue anymore or trying to spin things your own way without a
shred of substance as you so often do. Show the newsgroup EXACTLY where
I made charges about "the 3D Mind and the effectiveness" (i.e., in
general, as opposed to how 3D Mind had been portrayed by Terry,
initially). Show even ONE place where I made any comments about 3D
Mind's effectiveness with your other customers who have gotten any
results at all. You will not be able to do so -- because it didn't
happen. Now YOU'RE on the edge of slanderous.
I said, referencing & quoting your customer's initial comments, that
someone stated 3D Mind did not work for them, and then that you, rather
than gather higher quality data through questions, presumed they did it
wrong without asking any good questions of your customer.
If anything, you were potentially libelous by jumping to the premature
erroneous conclusion -- that Terry was NOT a customer just because he
used an anonymous email account to post his initial question (and
response about having tried 3D Mind to no avail, initially).
If you can't make a good case to show *specific charges* as you've
suggested I made -- then it is YOU who are over the edge of slanderous.
No such charges from me -- on EITHER COUNT -- exist.
Juse more baseless and poorly worded straw-man-arguments.
So now you owe ME an apology.
Regards,
Jonathan Altfeld (jona...@altfeld.com)
http://www.altfeld.com/mastery/index.html
Linguistic Wizardry - Dallas & Tampa, April 2005
http://www.altfeld.com/mastery/seminars/desc-wizardry.html
NLP for Public Speaking: SF Bay Area in May, Australia in July
http://www.altfeld.com/mastery/seminars/desc-holographic.html
Advanced Master Practitioner w/ Doug O'Brien - London, June 2005
FYI: We now have a - New - Business Address:
Mastery InSight Institute, P O Box 26622, Tampa, FL 33622 USA
Tom Vizzini
Damn this has to be embarrasing for the NLP community. I should have
expected the twisting and turning to attack.
"Jonathan Altfeld" <jona...@altfeld.com> wrote in message
news:cvn341pa2b2vdut3a...@4ax.com...
> "Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote:
> >Lets get back to FACTS.
>
> Wish you would actually post even one.
You know...I was going to write a long post detailing you remarks and the
inferences that most people would draw from them but you know, I think your
attitude is obvious. You were just using Mindmagic to try to inflict harm
Nothing more.
The facts are this:
<mindma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1111260684.0...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> OK I only think it is fair to write about my experience with the 3-d
> Mind and my original issue, which was about being uncomfortable and
> anxious around people.
>
> I made a statement that the 3-D mind does not work on my problem and
> that it only offered a temporary patch that lasts only as long as I can
> think about it.
>
> Tom replied saying that I was doing it wrong....
>
> He was absolutely correct.
> So I just thought it was fair to let you know that I was wrong about
> 3-D mind. Tom... you've made a believer out of me.
> MindMagic
Read the full post if you like.
Now just because you don't understand how I could know he was doing it wrong
is unimportant.
Now for a week of flaming and personal attacks you owe me an apology.
If you are not man enough to do it then that says quite a bit about you.
Jonathan Altfeld
embarassing for the "Tom Vizzini" community. I told you not to twist &
turn, and just back up your comments, but no, you're twisting & turning
& avoiding. Your allegations are all MOOT.
>You know...I was going to write a long post detailing you remarks
You would need to do so -- without inferences -- to back up your
allegations of being at the 'edge of slanderous' -- but you can't even
do this.
Go ahead & try. Detail my remarks without inferences. Slanderous does
not involve twisty/turny inferences people might make. Slander is about
direct comments. You will not find them. Your charge is MOOT.
>and the inferences that most people would draw from them
IRRELEVANT.
>but you know, I think your attitude is obvious.
As more than one poster responded, it is not obvious, nor is your
mindreading my attitude relevant. Deal with my posts directly.
>You were just using Mindmagic to try to inflict harm
I was not "just" doing anything. I even offered help to Mindmagic
directly, IN THIS FORUM, which Mindmagic DID say helped.
- - - - - - - - -
Again, since you tried in vain to sweep your vague and irresponsible
commentary under the table:
>-Altfeld made charges about my business that...
>-Altfeld Made charges about the 3D mind and the effectiveness.
You can't seem to back up any of your allegations of "SPECIFIC CHARGES"
that were at the "edge of slanderous" or about "3D mind and the
effectiveness" in general.
If you can't make a good case to show *specific charges* as you've
suggested I made -- then it is YOU who are over the edge of slanderous.
No such charges from me -- on EITHER COUNT -- exist.
Juse more baseless and poorly worded straw-man-arguments.
Elvis Keith Lester
#1 - You posted what my friend did not expect to be posted in the feedback
he wrote to you about his experience with 3D Mind. Nice that you expose
someone's vulnerabilities to your advantage. That makes you look good. I
will get back with you re: what he really said about his experiences at
other events he attended. & I will get back to you on a few other things as
well.
#2 - On your site you have "testimonials" with other people's names, emails,
and potentially sensitive material personally for some. Regardless of what
you say and how you put it, you lack sensitivity to your customers benefit
vs. overzealously pushing the "testimonials" for your own benefit (you
think). You'd do better to get releases from your clients/customers if you
don't already. In your state (and all others), confidentiality is highly
coveted. Your ignorance of breaking it is no excuse. I can understand since
you don't have any formal education on such matters.
#3 - If you are doing changework like you refer to on your site and likely
other forums on problems like "Phobia", Depression, anxiety, etc. you will
be found out. You & no one else are above the State Laws. Georgia is a
Practice Act state & to keep it simple here's a start of education for
you...
If you Do work on issues/problems/"disorders" that are protected and covered
under the Georgia Practice Act you, as a hypnotherapist, are working beyond
your scope of practice. (protected for Psychologists, Social Workers,
Licensed Professional Counselors, Psychiatrists). Let's say - as you refer
to "phobia" (loosely albeit used by "client") that falls outside your
"hypnotherapist" scope. Depression - again - diagnosed vs. loose use -
outside the scope. Regardless if you are doing a demonstration in a
seminar... you are not qualified to do that work. Period. If you deal with
a "medical disorder" through use of hypnotherapy (or whatever related to
behavioral change that is protected by Practice Act, without supervision,
prescription or direction of a medical professional, then, you are outside
the scope of practice.
In Your own words - Vizzini writes:
By what LEGAL entity? By what standard? What are my quilifications? I am a
certified clinical hypnotherapist. I could see clients just about anywhere.
In Georgia, where I live, I can see anyone about anything. I don't even need
to be a therapist to do that. Warned about what and by whom? I can legally
see anyone I want in Ga. Maybe you should not make threats. They make you
look desperate and stupid.
The above is what's STUPID. You as a so-called 'leader' ought to know you
are setting an example AND A BAD ONE AT THAT! That is what gets my goat.
Regarding your comments below, you have no idea what you are foolishly
saying.
One day I hope to get the pleasure of meeting you face to face. I look
forward to that time and when we do let's you and I put our SKILLS to the
test. Kind of like a duel you could say.
--You guys are so far behind you will never catch up. You don't even
understand the basic process that is public now. You will never get the full
concept because you are mimicks. Not one original idea between you.
ELVES
"Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:h8ednUYzpsn...@adelphia.com...
Jonathan Altfeld
>Lets get back to FACTS.
>-Altfeld made charges about my business that were on the edge
> of slanderous.
>-Altfeld Made charges about the 3D mind and the effectiveness.
>-He was wrong and owes me an apology.
Let's get back to *real* facts, not "Vizzini-facts."
I never made any such charges, though it might suit your straw-man
argument to try to paint a picture of persecution by trainers as a way
of drawing attention away from your own vague and silly posturing.
What is wrong -- is you trying to paint an invalid picture of what has
actually taken place in this newsgroup (as part of your marketing
blitz). I was specifically (and repeatedly) criticizing your behavior
online in this newsgroup, not "your business" nor "3D Mind" in general.
And, to invalidate your "allegations" further, on February 14, I posted
this snippet in regards to 3D Mind, and am happy to repost it:
>I'm glad it works when it works. You and other readers will
>note that I have not criticized 3D Mind anywhere when & if
>your customers are getting good results. That's to be
>celebrated. Furthermore, some of my students have heard me
>say as much to them, when they ask me my opinion. Good
>results are good results. Trying in vain to mind-read
>something erroneous that could support your bizarre
>assertions -- is stupid.
>
>What I specifically disliked, was your unwillingness to face
>public customer criticism/ comments of a product not working
>for them, in public.
So if Mindmagic ultimately got good results with your "corrections,"
that's good for him. It doesn't change that you refused to answer your
customers' concerns in the newsgroup in which he raised those concerns.
That was the central point of my criticism of your online behavior back
in February.
And.
You now haven't yet identified for the newsgroup what specific charges
you say you think I made about your business and about 3D Mind. Which
we already know you won't be able to do. So you posture and pout and
spout unsubstantiated allegations about nonexistent charges you'd like
people to think I made. Really laughable.
Your "mind-read" of my intentions (a) isn't right, and (b) doesn't
count, and wouldn't count anyway. Your mind-reads never count.
Where specifically are the SPECIFIC "charges" you say I made about
either your business or 3D Mind? Point to the exact quotes, and
specific statutes. Leave out your interpretations & the BS fluff.
You can't. You're incapable of backing up these allegations with fact.
And we already know that.
Myron lronhubbardisanut@fastmail.to
look
> forward to that time and when we do let's you and I put our SKILLS to
the
> test. Kind of like a duel you could say.
What skills? DHE skills? Do you have a death ray machine installed in
your
mind? Will you turn the power up to full and stare at Vizzini? Will
Vizzini
counter by imagining that you are a little smurf? Will you bore
Vizzini to death by reciting Bandler's Orlando PE seminar -- in full?
Will you turn the muscle strength dial on your hero console to full and
hammer Vizzini into the ground Warner Cartoons style? This is bizarre.
I'm truly fascinated. Really. Do you cast spells like these
http://www.cwpn.org/hhg/index.php?page=Speakers evolutionary
throwbacks?
Rather than swagger, bluster, saber rattle and talk shit -- which
appears to be a prerequisite to to being affiliated with
Bandler/LaValle -- why don't you, Bandler and his bum-boy La Valle (and
the wanker that wants me to fly to NY to debate him) sponsor an
independent investigation into the efficacy of DHE with respect to an
area with which you geniuses think DHE is particularly effective. If
that area is in sports performance then contract a sports physiologist.
If its pain management then contract a physiacian that specializes in
pain management and palliative care. Pick an area, your choice.
Conduct a controlled trial and publish the paper online and optionally
in any journal that will accept it. Set aside some of the filthy lucre
for genuine scientific research. If you have confidence in DHE this
shouldn't be a problem. Positive results will bring you even more
clients.
I'm quite confident that this will never happen. It's highly unlikely
given that no DHE proponent can even present a convincing argument in
defence of DHE on this forum.
The truth -- no not the truth according to me, _the_ truth -- is that
Bandler and his affiliates (including you) are bunch of limp-dick
wusses that peddle nonsense to the gullibe public at exhorbitant
prices. So crass and intellectually impotent is this Bandler circus
side-show that it is unable to
repel _my_ lone intellectual assaults.
Certainly, Vizzini/McFarland are yet to provide high-quality evidence,
there evidence is largely -- if not entirely -- anecdotal. However,
the claims made for 3DMind are -- on the face of it -- modest and
reasonable, the anecdotal evidence is abundant and the product is
cheap. The 3DMind tape-set is no more expensive than a technical book
_and_ there is post-sales support from the very creators. The
post-sales support is an indication of "good faith". Is Bandler or La
Valle accessible to their clients after the seminars are completed? I
think not, it's "hit and run". Instead, they're busy wallowing in
their loot like the bandit fat fuck pigs that they are. Is there a
better image of debauchery and decadence than Bandler (obese, jowled,
bug-eyed, deluded, narcissistic, shit-talking)?
-Myron
Laurenson
> Tom,
> Why don't you just stop with the insults about people in NLP. It is not
> attractive or professional.
He's just saying what he felt was true about the field, and given the recent
debacles of the trainers on this group (Altfeld included) it isn't
surprising. I believe
Tom.
> Again, these are your judgments, coming from your brain.
Wow, that was pretty insightful. Do you really really think they came from
his brain?
> It only shows what
> you are thinking and it is a waste of time. Isn't it.
You missed the "?" at the end of that sentence.
Laurenson
> Re: the person you are talking about here, who happens to be a friend of
> mine,
> you are mis-stating what he said, not that it matters.
Well then you are a poor judge of character if you proclaim Jon Altfeld to
be your friend. His actions on this group for the past several months have
been quite childish and very manipulative. If that's the quality of
trainings he puts out, then I would want nothing to do with them.
> > That is the fun part. I did not do extensive sessions to help him out. I
> > just showed him where he was doing it wrong and corrected it. Then it
> > worked fine. Problem gone.
>
> Here again, you are mis-leading.
>
> "helped HIMSELF". That's one way to get around the legalalities.
Legalities of what may I ask? How many thousands has Bandler claimed to help
get out of depression while all the same condeming professional
psychologists? If you are trying to suggest that Tom is doing something
beyond his scope, then so are you and anyone else that helps someone feel
better.
Wow, you are reaching quite low with this one. How pathetic.
Laurenson
> Elfs, you are a shining example of the lack of education in this field.
Your
> childish behavior and jealousy are now the standard for NLP and
Meta-Stinks.
I was thinking the exact same thing.
Laurenson
> >Lets get back to FACTS.
>
> Wish you would actually post even one.
We all followed your exchange with Tom. You are now trying to backpeddle in
a most pathetic way. Is lying your only talent?
, followed by yet
> another premature judgement that he wasn't your customer, followed by
> more posturing and testimonials.
Nothing premature about stating that the original posting was not an email
address that was in his database nore on his customer yahoo group.
> Now THAT'S getting back to facts.
No it's not, it's lying - plain and simple.
> >-Altfeld Made charges about the 3D mind and the effectiveness.
>
> Where specifically? I know it suits your straw man argument to think I
> did, but I did not. Anywhere. Show the list exactly, without dancing
> around the issue anymore or trying to spin things your own way without a
> shred of substance as you so often do. Show the newsgroup EXACTLY where
> I made charges about "the 3D Mind and the effectiveness" (i.e., in
> general, as opposed to how 3D Mind had been portrayed by Terry,
> initially). Show even ONE place where I made any comments about 3D
> Mind's effectiveness with your other customers who have gotten any
> results at all. You will not be able to do so -- because it didn't
> happen. Now YOU'RE on the edge of slanderous.
Yikes, the old stick and stones argument. How old are you Altfeld?
> I said, referencing & quoting your customer's initial comments, that
> someone stated 3D Mind did not work for them, and then that you, rather
> than gather higher quality data through questions, presumed they did it
> wrong without asking any good questions of your customer.
>
> If anything, you were potentially libelous
And you're completely ignorant of the law too. How sad.
> by jumping to the premature
> erroneous conclusion -- that Terry was NOT a customer just because he
> used an anonymous email account to post his initial question (and
> response about having tried 3D Mind to no avail, initially).
>
> If you can't make a good case to show *specific charges* as you've
> suggested I made -- then it is YOU who are over the edge of slanderous.
>
> No such charges from me -- on EITHER COUNT -- exist.
>
> Juse more baseless and poorly worded straw-man-arguments.
>
> So now you owe ME an apology.
What they say about you on this forum is true. You're a scandelous person.
UnKaH
those testimonies, therefore if you are insinuating that he only does
it to exploit then I suggest you go eat more of Bandlers shit in order
to feel superior.
Only some dim witted stupid fucking mind reader would post stupid ass
shit like that.
I think your mind reading knob on your control panel that you built
with all that DHE knowledge isn't working well as you expected it too,
but then again the faerie's with the magic dust didn't show up either
did they? It might be a little more prudent if you ask a few questions
than assume, like, did you get their permission?
We all know why you don't want to post any success's because you have
to have one first in order to post one.
Tim
Laurenson
about which is why he's chosen to insult and badger Tom instead. I kind of
feel sorry for Elvis.
"UnKaH" <monst...@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:1111651668....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
UnKaH
won't show up to defend his crown, it is left up to the lackeys to
fulfill that role.
You pick the subject.
Do you know what the difference between you and I, well for Blimpy I
suspect 100 pounds or so.
Can you explain why you continually avoid Myron's posts about debate?
If you really had any intelligence what so ever, the two of you could
tag team him and beat the stuffing out of him, how ever, the two of you
together don't have the iq of a bag of hammers.
Elvis, you sit there and self righteously exhort about all the
certificates and diplomas you have, which means you must think your
intelligence, yet you won't come to the table and answer the slap, the
challenge you've been given, neither you or Blimpy.
Now let's talk about your and Blimpy's response.
Number one point, Blimpy, your a lying fucking son of a bitch.
You know in your post you meant to try to hurt Tom's rep.
All the time, insinuating that you were supportive, but careful reading
reveals that your intent was to destroy his credibility because, your
trying to help that young man failed so miserably. So now you write
this long winded post of Fluff, are you and Robert Butt buddies? Which
is content less, but points to you being innocent of what your accused
of. When in fact you are guilty as hell.
Hey debate Myron on fluff, my money would be on you or Robert because
your both professional blowhards.
Deep down, I think Elvis is a good guy, but he got caught up in his own
importance not the mention the snow job Richard blew up his ass.
Why did you leave Hall ? I'm asking an honest question.
Why don't you do a study on DHE? Are you afraid of what you might find?
When all along we know, what you'll find.
Clue, if it looks like bullshit and it smells like bullshit, and tastes
like bullshit, then it must be what?
Tim
maxfishe...@yahoo.co.uk
I actually thought the 3D Mind ads were a spoof, a bit like the
National Enquirer. Surely nobody takes this kind of presentation
seriously these days? Why do you keep refering to DHE on an NLP
newsgroup?
Jonathan Altfeld
>We all followed your exchange with Tom.
>You are now trying to backpeddle in a most pathetic way.
Judging from your own IP's posting history on google.com --
64.59.144.74
LOL.
As for me -- I'm saying the same thing I said back then. Nothing's
changed. I even quoted myself saying if 3D Mind worked for Terry,
great. That's still true. Tom might like to try to paint that
differently, but it just ain't so. My comments stand *precisely* as I
made them in February. And Tom still hasn't detailed those "Charges"
yet, either.
>Nothing premature about stating that the original posting
>was not an email address that was in his database nore on
>his customer yahoo group.
What he first did was quickly jump to the premature conclusion that the
poster (Terry using an anonymous address) wasn't a customer. Tom
doesn't and didn't wait long enough to gather better information. He
makes and made premature judgements -- while we all observed.
Neither I nor anyone else questioned the facts he considered in his
premature conclusion (i.e. that the email address was not in his
database or on his groups).
He even says he emailed Terry's anonymous address and asked if the
poster used another address or if he'd bought the tape directly from
him. That was good.
A smarter individual, indeed anyone USING NLP effectively, would know he
did not YET have sufficient information and he needed to wait longer to
get that, otherwise present his premature conclusion less presumptively,
with less certainty. Unlike Tom, the rest of the newsgroup waited, and
we finally heard from Terry. Tom jumped VERY EARLY without having heard
back from Terry for a few days to the invalid conclusion that Mindmagick
was NOT a customer.
>Yikes, the old stick and stones argument.
Yikes, yet more posturing and avoidance. When will Tom or his
sycophants post the specific charges Tom 'referenced?'
Tom Vizzini
Every testimonial as ever posted have done so with the express permission of
the person who supplied the testimonial.
> The above is what's STUPID. You as a so-called 'leader' ought to know you
> are setting an example AND A BAD ONE AT THAT! That is what gets my goat.
Do I have to apply the metal model to the above statement?
Maybe when you make an accurate post I will respond something you say until
then you are just making a lot of noise about nothing.
Tom
"Elvis Keith Lester" <lear...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:5oo0e.201595$pc5.1...@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Tom,
Elvis Keith Lester
It is clear you have no idea what you are talking about.
Why don't you just shut up and leave. You add nothing but a whine to the
group. Go away.
Elvis
<lronhubb...@fastmail.to> wrote in message
news:1111637008.1...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Elvis Keith Lester
"Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:2PudnTe8Lvv...@adelphia.com...
Elvis Keith Lester
"UnKaH" <monst...@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:1111654455.4...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Elvis Keith Lester
> You keep mentioning that Tom has no formal education which implies that
you
> somehow do? Not that it would be apparent from any of your
> messages though. What the heck are you formally educated on? And don't you
> find it embarrassing that you are engaging in net kiddy affairs as
> a supposedly formally educated person? Maybe you should be the poster boy
> for why formal education doesn't always work?
>
> > Why is it that Altfeld can jerk your chain so well?
> > I'd say it is because you are so TRANSPARENT.
>
> I bet you'll respond to all of Vizzini's messages.
>
> Your buttons say "HI" :-)
>
>
Elvis Keith Lester
> Well then you are a poor judge of character if you proclaim Jon Altfeld to
> be your friend. His actions on this group for the past several months have
> been quite childish and very manipulative. If that's the quality of
> trainings he puts out, then I would want nothing to do with them.
>
> > > That is the fun part. I did not do extensive sessions to help him out.
I
> > > just showed him where he was doing it wrong and corrected it. Then it
> > > worked fine. Problem gone.
> >
> > Here again, you are mis-leading.
> >
> > "helped HIMSELF". That's one way to get around the legalalities.
>
> Legalities of what may I ask? How many thousands has Bandler claimed to
help
> get out of depression while all the same condeming professional
> psychologists? If you are trying to suggest that Tom is doing something
> beyond his scope, then so are you and anyone else that helps someone feel
> better.
>
> Wow, you are reaching quite low with this one. How pathetic.
Is this your breakthrough post to Go #1 on the alt.nlp newsgroup?
Tom Vizzini
"Laurenson" <lar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pTu0e.764322$Xk.528787@pd7tw3no...
> I bet you're right, he probably doesn't have any success stories to brag
> about which is why he's chosen to insult and badger Tom instead. I kind of
> feel sorry for Elvis.
>
Not one testimonial on his entire site.....I think that tells a story
UnKaH
>Nothing premature about stating that the original >posting was not an
email address that was in his >database nore on his customer yahoo
group.
>What he first did was quickly jump to the premature >conclusion that
the poster (Terry using an anonymous >address) wasn't a customer. Tom
doesn't and didn't >wait long enough to gather better information. He
>makes and made premature judgements -- while we all >observed.
>Neither I nor anyone else questioned the facts he >considered in his
premature conclusion (i.e. that the >email address was not in his
database or on his >groups).
>He even says he emailed Terry's anonymous address >and asked if the
poster used another address or if he'd >bought the tape directly from
him. That was good.
If someone attacked his product, it would be reasonable to check to
see if indeed that person had the 3-d Mind product, The simple reason
is that there are a lot of less than ethical trainers on here that
would love to destroy Tom and Kim's reputation. Since he was using a
different e-mail address and it didn't show up in his data base then,
it was reasonable to assume it was written by one of you dim witted
fuckers, posting under yet another false idenitity. Since he just
posted, then left, it was highly suspect of the normal shit talking
you, people like you spew. Given the posting history, false id's and
sock puppets you DHE Bandler fans seem so fond of, yes, he did accuse
him and with good reason.
It wasn't till later he revealed him self, who he was and got needed
help he needed.
>A smarter individual, indeed anyone USING NLP >effectively, would know
he did not YET have sufficient >information and he needed to wait
longer to get that, >otherwise present his premature conclusion less
>presumptively, with less certainty. Unlike Tom, the rest >of the
newsgroup waited, and we finally heard from >Terry. Tom jumped VERY
EARLY without having >heard back from Terry for a few days to the
invalid >conclusion that Mindmagick was NOT a customer.
Wait longer? How long did it take for this guy to post back? A few
days, don't you mean a week? Reframing it into a few days, your trying
to make it sound as if Tom did jump the gun, The man posted and left,
anyone would have done the same thing Tom did. But of course you and
your ilk have to try to turn this around and make it seem as if Tom
over reacted, but even if he did, so fucken what, the problem got
resolved, his customer is happy and your left with egg on you face, but
I am sure it won't remain their long, as soon as the hash browns are
done huh? Nice layering of pre-suppositions suggesting that Tom is not
smart, but then again, what we really have to look at his how much
money you wasted on Bullshit seminars, it only took him once to see,
and still yet you still haven't got a clue, so then who's the real
dumbass?
>Yikes, the old stick and stones argument.
What sticks and stones might break your bones, and they taste good with
ketchup?
>Yikes, yet more posturing and avoidance. When will >Tom or his
sycophants post the specific charges Tom >'referenced?'
The bottom line, regardless of weather Tom jumped the gun or not, this
whole thing got resolved, client is happy.
And your still sitting there looking stupid as usual. Trying to blow a
small thing way out of proportion to discredit Tom. I also see you
DIDN'T help that guy and your bullshit technique sucks as bad as you
do.
Have a great day Blimpy
Tim
UnKaH
Your bitch ass whining, of course you want him to leave, so that you
won't be exposed any more, the truth hurts you and your business.
You said you just came back from a DHE seminar, ok, post something of
value that you learned.
Of course you won't because you know you'll be ripped to shreds.
Of course it is better not to say anything about DHE, because then,
your secrets are safe. Locked away in the secret regions of your brain
where all the rest of your mental masturbation takes place.
My Best Bubba
Tim
UnKaH
>I enjoy dealing with village idiots the likes of you.
You are exactly right, I am the village idiot, I am perhaps one of the
dumbest fuckers on this NG, However, I am still light years ahead of
you.
Anyone, who continually goes to the DHE seminars, thinking there is
something to them, has got to be the stupidest son of a bitch on this
planet. Wake up Elvis, geejus.
Have a great day
Tim
UnKaH
Quit looking at my ass.
Have fun
Tim
Joe Bloggs
liar. You should read his FAQ, just do a search on Jonathan Altfeld +
Hypocrite on google to read the whole story.
"Laurenson" <lar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c6u0e.768072$8l.54606@pd7tw1no...
Joe Bloggs
tactics now, you hypocritical liar.
"Jonathan Altfeld" <jona...@altfeld.com> wrote in message
news:oth541pkh2dire955...@4ax.com...
Joe Bloggs
"Jonathan Altfeld" <jona...@altfeld.com> wrote in message
news:nia4411efhhj32rig...@4ax.com...
Joe Bloggs
> Do you have ADD...
Don't use my material you incredibly uncreative shit talker. Is that the
best you can do? Copy someone else and sell it as your own? Wait, I remember
that Tim actually exposed you as being a parrot of Bandler. I guess,
parotting is your only skill.
Joe Bloggs
> Are you a buddy boy of Tommy Boy?
?
Can you ever respond with something intelligent, and comical? I bet you
slapped your knee when you came up with that one, Elf.
Elf = Parrot...a parotting ELF.
Joe Bloggs
> Myron,
> It is clear you have no idea what you are talking about.
> Why don't you just shut up and leave. You add nothing but a whine to the
> group. Go away.
> Elvis
Wow, so persuasive. Is this an example of what you learned through PE?
Unbelievable...I'm impressed, where do I sign up Elf?
Joe Bloggs
> I enjoy dealing with village idiots the likes of you.
Elvis said this while looking into a mirror. That, I'm positive on.
Joe Bloggs
upgrade. How about taking a seminar outside of the NLP field, Altfat?
"Jonathan Altfeld" <jona...@altfeld.com> wrote in message
news:67s341d07drovpr99...@4ax.com...
Joe Bloggs
>
> "Joe Bloggs" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:By40e.92182$i6.34928@edtnps90...
>
> >
> >
> > I expect Jon Altfucker to come out and publically appologize now too.
Step
> > up Altfucker and face the music. You
> > started trash talking Tom and accusing him of shying away from a public
> > complaint, and now that all has been
> > resolved and the initial customer has been served, when can we expect
you
> to
> > be a man of your word?
>
> You know it was not enough for Altfeld to attack me. He had to dredge up
> garbage from 10 years ago to attack me. What that means to me is that
> Altfeld just waits for opportunities to make personal attacks for his own
> personal reasons. He doesn't care about Mindmagic. He just cares about
> attacking me.
>
> I have said this before and I will say it again. When I got into this
> business I looked forward to meeting some great people who were also
> training. Instead I met a group of the most disfunctional people ever.
> These masters of NLP were childish backstabbing babies. I never met a
group
> of more socially retarded people.
>
> Once you are on the inside of this business you get to see and hear the
real
> stories and actions of these people.
>
> Altfeld is a shining example of this idiocy.
>
> Not all are like this. But the ones who are would shock you.
>
> So yes I do expect an apology from Altfeld. I want an apology for his
> treatnment of me and for him to admit that the 3D mind works as promised.
>
> It should be interesting
As expected Altfeld can just lie and divert from the fact that he was wrong,
and he put his foot in his mouth when he jumped on an opportunity to try and
destroy your reputation. On that basis alone, I'm thinking of ordering your
3D mind tape set, and putting it to the test :-)))))
Joe Bloggs
Tom., you haven't been paying attention have you? I've been saying it all
along - that Jonny Altfat is a liar, a coward, and a hypocrite.
Altfeld's FAQ:
http://tinyurl.com/62fy9
Myron lronhubbardisanut@fastmail.to
>It is clear you have no idea what you are talking about.
No, it isn't. It isn't even apparent. What _is_ emerging clearly is
that
you are trying to make facile appeals to your own putative authority
based
_entirely_ on your credentials. I too have credentials. Unlike you, I
don't expect blind obedience and acceptance on the basis of my
credentials.
Your credentials don't magically imbue your pronouncements with
infallibility
and authority. Your credentials should provide you with the knowledge
and
analytical skills that will permit you to argue a case and establish a
point.
This, it appears, you are unwilling or unable to do.
It seems to me that you have internalized the cultic model of
"knowledge delivery"
that Bandler uses, i.e. I have the knowledge, I deliver the knowledge,
I talk
you listen, no questions.
Unfortunately, this won't fly outside the controlled (and often
stege-managed) milieu of the seminar hall.
>Why don't you just shut up and leave. You add nothing but a whine to
the
>group. Go away.
Why don't you argue a point -- any point -- rather than appeal to your
(putative)
authority. (For you edification, you are committing the informal
logical fallacy of
appealing to authority.)
One of the traits of a truly educated person is a critical mind that
can comprehend,
construct and present arguments. It appears that you managed to slip
through university
without any of these traits "sticking".
Regarding your alleged professionalism and ethicality, I simply don't
see it. An ethical
mental health professional wouldn't be involved in the flim-flam that
DHE is.
I'm curious to know what it is that you believe you bring to this NG.
I've surveyed
your posts and all I can find is product and service promotion.
If you want me to go away then that is feedback that I am doing a good
job of "debunking".
-Myron
Laurenson
> "Laurenson" <lar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >We all followed your exchange with Tom.
> >You are now trying to backpeddle in a most pathetic way.
>
> Judging from your own IP's posting history on google.com --
> 64.59.144.74
>
> LOL.
Is that some sort of private joke or something? Did you have a point to
make?
> As for me -- I'm saying the same thing I said back then. Nothing's
> changed.
You're a sad sad person, that's for sure. You're humorusly backtracking, but
anyone with half a brain will see it for what it is.
Laurenson
> hahaha, even a newbie to this group can see that Altfat is a hypocritical
> liar. You should read his FAQ, just do a search on Jonathan Altfeld +
> Hypocrite on google to read the whole story.
I did, and you're right. Altfeld is certainly a tosser.
Laurenson
> Do you have ADD...
Nope, and if this is the best indication of your assessment of people you
work with, I pray to God that you don't do any permanent damage with them.
Laurenson
> Are you a buddy boy of Tommy Boy?
Another inside joke. You DHE'rs ever so witty.
Laurenson
> I enjoy dealing with village idiots the likes of you.
You're the village idiot by making a statement of this nature, while
avoiding an actual meaningful conversation with Myron.
He's got light years more intelligence in any one of his lines than I've
read in any of your postings to date. Why don't you buck up and take him on,
instead of shying away with your pathetic one liners to Unkah, and you're
legal threats to Tom?
Laurenson
<maxfishe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1111654504....@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Why do you keep refering to DHE on an NLP
> newsgroup?
Maybe because it is, and has been a topic of discussion here for quite some
time?!?
Greg Alexander
> sponsor an independent investigation into the efficacy
> of DHE with respect to an area with which you geniuses
> think DHE is particularly effective. If that area is in sports
> performance then contract a sports physiologist. If its
> pain management then contract a physiacian that
> specializes in pain management and palliative care.
> Pick an area, your choice. Conduct a controlled trial and
> publish the paper
I agree this is an excellent idea. For NLP too.
Naturally this is not an easy thing to do, it's not something that can
be done off the cuff. But I'd love to see this done right.
The only emphasis I would make are 2 controls (which I THINK you are
implying anyway?)
1) The research should be controlled by people in the field to be
improved, NOT the dhe/nlp practitioner.
2) The NLP or DHE practitioners should NOT be chosen by people in the
field under research, that should be done within the NLP or DHE
community.
I've not seen research into NLP done with both these taken into
account.
I've considered giving up a year to research some small area of NLP but
so far I've decided against it (too much of an investment).
> Positive results will bring you even more clients.
It may even discern differently efficacy for specific patterns, leading
to overall improvement.
> I'm quite confident that this will never happen.
I hope you're wrong! :) I'd like to see some great studies.
> It's highly unlikely given that no DHE proponent can even
> present a convincing argument in defence of DHE on this forum.
I won't defend DHE (it's not my area, as you know). I don't know if
this forum has participants representative of the DHE community.
Remember that there are many things which make a good study difficult -
such as the time it takes out of someone's life, and also that people
_successfully_ using any technique in any field are less likely to have
time or feel a need to research what they're doing. Of course there are
people who may make that commitment, but they aren't necessarily in
this forum.
On a related note, I'll say there IS a big difference between
practising NLP and being able to talk about it. Not only is spoken
language a smaller part of most patterns, but it's a different skill.
Like telling someone about driving vs being a great driver....
> The truth -- no not the truth according to me, _the_ truth -- is that
> Bandler and his affiliates (including you) are bunch of limp-dick
> wusses that peddle nonsense to the gullibe public at exhorbitant
> prices.
How can you say that is truth, not just truth according to you?
Personally I wouldn't go to a Bandler training because I don't think it
would be of value to me, but I consider that a personal judgement.
Oh, wouldn't any price be exhorbitant if you were selling nonsense? :)
> So crass and intellectually impotent is this Bandler
> circus side-show that it is unable to repel _my_ lone
> intellectual assaults.
A good argument isn't necessarily harder to answer.
And a good discussion where you can really learn something is one way
of learning, where an assault requiring defense or repelling "the
enemy"(?) is quite different. I've seen you do both well.
> Certainly, Vizzini/McFarland are yet to provide high-quality
> evidence, there evidence is largely -- if not entirely -- anecdotal.
> However, the claims made for 3DMind are -- on the face of it --
> modest and reasonable, the anecdotal evidence is abundant
> and the product is cheap.
Sorry Myron - are you saying anecdotal evidence is of no use, or that
anecdotal evidence is fine if the product claims are reasonable and the
product is cheap... or am I missing something?
> The 3DMind tape-set is no more expensive than a technical
> book _and_ there is post-sales support from the very creators.
> The post-sales support is an indication of "good faith".
Post sales support is important, my trainers always went out of their
way to support me and other students (and they continue to!). Good on
3DMind for doing the same.
Greg
Myron lronhubbardisanut@fastmail.to
that
>> Bandler and his affiliates (including you) are bunch of limp-dick
>> wusses that peddle nonsense to the gullibe public at exhorbitant
>> prices.
>
>
>How can you say that is truth, not just truth according to you?
Because I don't subscribe to a relativistic epistemology. Death
to post-modernism!
<snip>
>A good argument isn't necessarily harder to answer.
I beg to differ.
>And a good discussion where you can really learn something is one way
>of learning, where an assault requiring defense or repelling "the
>enemy"(?) is quite different. I've seen you do both well.
Each has its place.
>> Certainly, Vizzini/McFarland are yet to provide high-quality
>> evidence, there evidence is largely -- if not entirely -- anecdotal.
>> However, the claims made for 3DMind are -- on the face of it --
>> modest and reasonable, the anecdotal evidence is abundant
>> and the product is cheap.
>
>
>Sorry Myron - are you saying anecdotal evidence is of no use, or that
>anecdotal evidence is fine if the product claims are reasonable and
the
>product is cheap... or am I missing something?
Anecdotal evidence is a low quality form of evidence. It is not of
_no_ use but it is no substitute for the evidence that would come
from a controlled trial.
In practical terms, from a consumer perspective, a buying decision
based on anecdotal evidence, where the claims for the product
are realistic and the product is cheap, is not perverse. That is
to say, purchasing a tape-set for US$70.00 is a low-risk decision.
So, no, I'm not saying that anecdotal evidence is "fine if the product
claims are reasonable and the product is cheap". Anecdotal evidence
remains low-quality evidence irrespective of any other variables.
Purchasing
a product on the basis of anecdotal evidence will carry a some risk
that the product doesn't do what was promised. This is inescapable.
However,
the risk is varied by cost/time investment and recovery options.
We can understand risk as a function of
(a) risk impact -- a loss associated with the event;
(b) risk probability -- the likelihood that the event will occur; and
(c) risk control -- the degree to which we can change the outcome.
A simple way to arrive at a risk score is by multiplying (a), (b) and
(c).
For 3DMind tape-set:
(a) risk impact is US$70.00 and opportunity cost of time investment, to
keep things
simple we'll consider only dollar cost;
(b) risk probability is at worst .5 (ie. 50%) because claims are
reasonable and
there is much anecdotal evidence;
(c) risk control is good because tape-set can be sold for about half
price so we'll say .5
This gives us risk score = 70 x .5 x .5 = 17.5
For DHE Seminar:
(a) risk impact is cost of seminar plus cost of lossed earnings during
seminar attendance
and possibly cost of travel and accomodation. We'll say US$5000.
(b) risk probability is high because there is very little anecdotal
evidence, claims
are ambitious and there are reports from dissatified customers so we'll
say .7
(c) risk control is low as no tangible assets have been acquired and
expenses can't
be recovered so we'll say .9
This gives us risk score = 5000 x .7 x .9 = 3150
17.5 vs. 3150 Therefore, in relation to a DHE seminar the 3DMind
tape-set is a good
risk.
For this reason, from a consumer perspective the quality of evidence
presented
in favour of DHE seminar attendance should be much better than
anecdote.
Hopefully this will help some of the mouth-breathers on this NG in
their decision-making.
However, I'm realistic. Analysis is the province of the neocortex.
The reptilian
brain doesn't understand probability, risk, calculation and analysis.
The reptile
wants power and control. Tell the reptile that it can gain control and
power and
simultaenously hush the neocortex and you have sold a DHE seminar.
-Myron
Tom Vizzini
<lronhubb...@fastmail.to> wrote in message
news:1111765801.0...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> In practical terms, from a consumer perspective, a buying decision
> based on anecdotal evidence, where the claims for the product
> are realistic and the product is cheap, is not perverse. That is
> to say, purchasing a tape-set for US$70.00 is a low-risk decision.
Good point. It is straight is further by the author of a 100% moneyback
guarantee.
There is absolutely no risk to the consumer.
> For 3DMind tape-set:
>
> (a) risk impact is US$70.00 and opportunity cost of time investment, to
> keep things
> simple we'll consider only dollar cost;
>
> (b) risk probability is at worst .5 (ie. 50%) because claims are
> reasonable and
> there is much anecdotal evidence;
>
> (c) risk control is good because tape-set can be sold for about half
> price so we'll say .5
>
> This gives us risk score = 70 x .5 x .5 = 17.5
I want a lower score :)
The tape can be returned for full price so the only risk is the shipping.
Tom Vizzini
"Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:1bOdnaiiAfT...@adelphia.com...
>
> <lronhubb...@fastmail.to> wrote in message
> news:1111765801.0...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> >
> > In practical terms, from a consumer perspective, a buying decision
> > based on anecdotal evidence, where the claims for the product
> > are realistic and the product is cheap, is not perverse. That is
> > to say, purchasing a tape-set for US$70.00 is a low-risk decision.
>
> Good point. It is straight is further by the author of a 100% moneyback
> guarantee.
Damn voice-recognition software. What I meant to say is this.
It is strengthened further my the offer of a 100% moneyback guarantee.
Tom
Greg Alexander
Myron lronhubb...@fastmail.to wrote:
> >How can you say that is truth, not just truth according to you?
>
> Because I don't subscribe to a relativistic epistemology. Death
> to post-modernism!
Okay I'll accept that.
Naturally that doesn't prove that what you say is truth, just that you
believe you have found truth.
> >And a good discussion where you can really learn something is
> >one way of learning, where an assault requiring defense or
> >repelling "the enemy"(?) is quite different. I've seen you do both
well.
>
> Each has its place.
Absolutely. And each will result in different responses to whoever
you're interacting with, which will be useful to your intent or not.
> >A good argument isn't necessarily harder to answer.
>
> I beg to differ.
An attack can be harder to answer than a good argument, where there are
valid responses and whether the attack is justifiable or not.
> Anecdotal evidence is a low quality form of evidence. It is not
> of _no_ use but it is no substitute for the evidence that would
> come from a controlled trial.
Sure.
> (b) risk probability is at worst .5 (ie. 50%) because claims are
> reasonable and there is much anecdotal evidence;
I'd make a special note of where the anecdotal evidence comes from. If
you go to a seminar there will be much anecdotal evidence. If you go to
an online support group there will be anecdotal evidence. The quantity
of evidence can reflect either the quality of something or how easy it
is for you to hear the people with the evidence.
> 17.5 vs. 3150 Therefore, in relation to a DHE seminar the 3DMind
> tape-set is a good risk.
I agree 3D Mind is a better risk.
> Hopefully this will help some of the mouth-breathers on
> this NG in their decision-making.
Thanks for the maths approach.
Always be careful of thinking the maths is a quanitified assessment,
when the numbers you are putting in are guesses, and the formula
putting together the numbers is also a guess. It's one of the
"features" of our minds that we can put facts and guesses together but
think it's pretty close to fact at the end.
That said, some guidance is useful. ANY new perspective or position can
give us more flexibility to do what's right for us.
Greg
UnKaH
watching the 3-D Mind, where as how many days for the DHE?
Time is always a risk factor as Myron pointed out, time is a commodity
you can't get back.
Where as you can watch the 3-D Mind any time at your leisure, DHE is an
appointed time, of x amount of days, loss of work, travel, eating out,
hotels, travel and any other incidentals that might incur.
Even if you decided on the CD's for the DHE, cost is 350.00, that is
what I paid, it might be more now, time spent listening, at your
leisure, with no money back guarantee. So the risk factor is very high.
I for one would love to see the 3-D Mind put to the test, under
controlled conditions because they would verify what we all ready know.
Tim
Greg Alexander
factors left out - as long as that is realised they can be useful for
another perspective but only for that.
For instance, Myron's formula (and your addition) totally ignores the
quantity and quality of learnings in his risk. It's based on "if I
learn NOTHING, this is what I would lose from each".
As a general rule, a long course will usually teach more than a short
course. A long course will also cost more. And if you want to calculate
risk of learning nothing (which is what Myron was looking at), a long
course will have greater risk (especially if you add time in as you
have). Of course, a longer course also has greater benefit in general.
John
<gale...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
There is the additional issue of enjoyment of the event or conversely
avoiding pain.
Besides the calculated aspects of the formulas mentioned it seems you
are also touching on the process of learning which will incorporate
learning about learning. A valuable skill to hone in terms of any
future learning we might undertake.
My original practitioner training was 20 days all of which I enjoyed
immensely and couldn't wait to attend to as each block came around and
really getting into my 'homework' on the way. I was disappointed when
it was over. Had someone offered me a video at a fraction of the price
with accelerated learning as a result I don't think I would have
accepted the offer although the cost would have had some influence I'm
sure.
I guess some of this is also about learning without pain or taking the
easy route. Strong and valuable learning may well have an intended or
unintended effect on out belief systems which could be uncomfortable.
So that when someone offers painless and lost cost options for skills
acquisition such as the 'learn while you sleep' packages or even the
ultimate from the Matrix, phone the operator and get him to load the
'Fly a helicopter' software straight into our brains (and our
muscles), there is a temptation to accept. Learning is maximised when
it is fun with disastrous results otherwise as many of our schools can
testify.
The point is that learning and living are not two distinct processes,
they are intimately bound together and each needs the other to achieve
optimal results in terms of our outcomes.
--
John
UnKaH
yet to say anything of substance about DHE, leading one to believe
there is no substance.
So far, what I have heard from the DHE crowd is possibilities and
control panels, and no evidence what so ever that any of this works.
There has not yet been a post about how I used DHE to change this
phobia, eating disorder, nothing.
As Myron so vividly pointed out and I'll quote him.
"Anecdotal evidence is a low quality form of evidence"
There has been NONE coming from the DHE crowd.
How much clearer must the picture be painted?
There has been ample anecdotal evidence against DHE, but none for it,
so where does that conclusion lead you?
Tim
nic
Tim
Trying to be fair about this, I recently approached someone who has been
DHE trained, and is an NLP trainer though I cannot vouch for how
effectively he trains as I've never attended a session delivered by him.
As I've posted before, I find it difficult to visualise and to change
the modalities of pictures that I do see. I understand that this is
bread and butter stuff for DHE people.
I should also point out that I am an easy hypnosis subject, which should
make things easy for achieving the aim: I was curious about this
'console' we hear so much about from DHE people and wanted one installed
so that I could change visual modalities: sliders for brightness, color etc.
The DHE 'expert' said that this would be easy and charged me £30 - he
then set to;
45 mins later I had experienced a mild level of trance, had no 'console'
and refused to pay the £30.
Ok, so maybe it was just me but a. it didn't work amd b. as with a lot
of NLP exercises, the process was very visual. The practitioner seemed
unable to relate to someone who finds it difficult to visualise; I find
this same inability to relate to non-visuals to be present in a lot of
NLP practitioners, too. They have a stock answer 'of course you make
pictures, you just can't see them'! I was asked by one NLP trainer 'so,
you can't make pictures... what colour is your front door?'
'Green'
'There you are, you made pictures to be able to tell me that.'
'No, I remember buying the paint and painting it myself!' was the answer
to which he had no follow up.
Greg Alexander
UnKaH wrote:
> There has been ample anecdotal evidence against DHE, but none for it,
> so where does that conclusion lead you?
The conclusion leads me nowhere.
In fact, I wouldn't make a conclusion. Nice presupposition though :)
I just don't care about DHE, I have other areas I'd far rather learn
about.
All I'm talking about is risk calculation and what is or is not a good
argument.
> There has not yet been a post about how I used DHE to change
> this phobia, eating disorder, nothing.
I noticed that. I wonder why that is.
> As Myron so vividly pointed out and I'll quote him.
>
> "Anecdotal evidence is a low quality form of evidence"
>
> There has been NONE coming from the DHE crowd.
> How much clearer must the picture be painted?
The problem with anecdotal evidence is you take one or two examples
with no indication that it's a representative sample. It also falls
prey to the same problems as quoting out of context.
Remember that if anecdotal evidence is low quality evidence, then it's
low quality evidence that something works and ALSO low quality evidence
that something doesn't work. It is, simply, low quality evidence.
Greg
Greg Alexander
> There is the additional issue of enjoyment of the event or
> conversely avoiding pain.
Thanks for that and your other points John.
There are so many factors that go into deciding if a training is
worthwhile.
The risk of losing money is one way of looking at things, what we gain
and learn is another, then there's our choices in living, and so on.