EFT
Ed_Zep
people would have us believe?
Tom Vizzini
"Ed_Zep" <ed_...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1126531743....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Looks crazy to me... but do any NLPers here think it's as good as some
> people would have us believe?
Nope and yes. Her is the problem I have with eft. It is wrapped in energy
meridians and trigger point but they have nothing to do with the process. It
is a straight hypnotic technique and nothing more.
It is collapsomg 2 anchors. One is the problem statement and the other is
the feeling of loving and accepting yourself.
That is it.
It can backfire. I have a friend that used in on a stop smoking client and
she anded up loving and accepting that she smoked.
Tom
>
yo!
"Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:Q_mdnSSz54e...@adelphia.com...
Andi
Ed_Zep <ed_...@ntlworld.com> writes
>Looks crazy to me... but do any NLPers here think it's as good as some
>people would have us believe?
>
If you want to know if I am qualified to answer the question, I am only
a beginner at EFT, and NLP master prac. I have used it and got results.
That is where my qualification ends.
It is a tool, like NLP.
NLP is a tool, and like all tools, they have their uses. NLP is not a
universal tool, it has limitations - you may have discovered this for
yourself.
When a new tool is discovered by NLP people, they tend to claim "It
isn't NLP" and most then attempt to discredit it. Especially those with
a vested interest in selling their own product.
The basic tenet of NLP is to 'use what works, and discard what doesn't'
and it doesn't say anything about discrediting other's work.
Another basic tent of NLP is to find excellence, model it, and transfer
those skills to others.
EFT is one such skill.
No, it isn't NLP, and it isn't like NLP either. Does it matter?
If it took years of study and only got results years later, I would be
unwilling to learn it too. I would want lots of people to give me their
experience before handing over wedges of cash and years of time.
I learnt how to do it in a weekend, completely free from a website
download. If it takes just a few hours to learn and then decide if it
works, does it really matter ?
So... Here are some of my comparisons:
Yes, it is weird, but so are most of the techniques of NLP when you
first started to learn them. Did weirdness stop getting the results?
* Both use the same presupposition "mind a body are part of the same
system" This process uses the body as it's driver rather than the
mind.
* The NLP Timeline process can clear emotional baggage without any
need to delve into those painful experiences that created them. It
is an
unconscious (somatic) process. It is usually a one shot process.
EFT uses content to explore often painful experiences, but gets you
to
deconstruct them into smaller pieces that you deem important. This
process is done with the conscious awareness. It is then repeated
until the whole negative emotion has been released.
* NLP uses visualisation of goals, and looking into the future. It
dissociates you from uncomfortable memories to allow a detached
processing within the mind.
EFT associates you into a past experience.
* NLP is flexible in it's approach - it is different for each person
EFT is a rigid procedure (for the beginner), with shortcuts for the
more
advanced.
My evidence:
I had arthritis since I was 7 years old, with pain so bad that I had to
give up sport. I tried all the techniques that NLP had to offer
(anchors, timeline, sub-modalities, hypnosis, parts integration, parts
negotiation, etc). I had almost given up trying to find a cure.
I gave EFT a go. Where NLP couldn't help, EFT succeeded. It took
several days to notice that I wasn't getting the pain that I usually
get, and I put it down to the EFT. Do I know for sure? No. Then, I am
pain free after so many years - I believe it did the job.
I have added it to my toolbox. NLP is not the *only* answer, and nor is
EFT.
My conclusion - spend a few hours learning it, and make up your own mind
whether it works or not. First hand evidence is far more convincing
than an anonymous and biased post on an Internet newsgroup.
You can get a free EFT manual, and tutorial pages from:
( I am not affiliated with them, only a happy bunny! )
--
Andi
yo!
wondering if there was a difference.
"Andi" <A...@No.reply.back.to.me> wrote in message
news:Xk3w2eE+wcJDFw$A...@apmawds.demon.co.uk...
Andi
>no, not at all, that is not what I meant.
Don't worry, I wasn't referring to you in my last post.
>I am aware of TFT not EFT and was wondering if there was a difference.
I don't know what TFT is.
EFT = Emotional Freedom Techniques. Gary says he developed it from
someone else that used tapping on meridians.
The major difference he mentions is that of diagnosis.
There are 13 meridians on which to tap. It takes a lot of skill and
practice to diagnose.
Diagnosing which meridian to tap can take up to 5 minutes. So Gary
changed this and decided there was no harm done in tapping on every
single meridian in turn, which only takes 1 minute per round.
This then does away with the highly skilled diagnosis, and addresses all
meridians even if there is no effect on all but one. This also makes it
easy for a new-comer to learn it and get immediate results.
I don't know if this is the difference that you were looking for, it is
all I know about it.
--
Andi
yo!
work - I am aware of one case where it cured a diabetic and have seen it
work on National Geographic Channel for phobia cure.
"Andi" <A...@No.reply.back.to.me> wrote in message
news:aBhjffGn...@apmawds.demon.co.uk...
Tom Vizzini
"yo!" <z...@z.com> wrote in message news:dg47ja$dfo$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> eft? how does it compare to TFT?
Eft is a TFT rippoff. They are the same thing.
yo!
i gather that EFT has had the benefits of being marketed with Bandler and
McKenna at the expense of TFT?
"Tom Vizzini" <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote in message
news:ctudnbhTc9G...@adelphia.com...
Nic
> thats what i was trying to establish.
> i gather that EFT has had the benefits of being marketed with Bandler and
> McKenna at the expense of TFT?
>
>
Last year McKenna hosted a workshop with Bandler and Roger Callahan, teh
founder of TFT so I'm not sure that what you say is true.
Nic
Nic
It began with TFT - EFT is based on it, or a rip-off of it, depending on
yout point of view
Nic
>
> There are 13 meridians on which to tap. It takes a lot of skill and
> practice to diagnose.
> Diagnosing which meridian to tap can take up to 5 minutes. So Gary
> changed this and decided there was no harm done in tapping on every
> single meridian in turn, which only takes 1 minute per round.
>
Tradional Chinese Medicine practitioners will tell you that it is stupid
to tap a meridian that does not need it as you can over energise the
meridian.
TFT is based on algorithms - speciic acupoints in specific sequences in
oredr to deal with the alorithm's related conditions.
Algoriths exist for, amongst other things, addictive urges, anger,
anxiety, claustrophobia, trauma, guilt, depression, embarrassment, fear
of spiders, jet lag, fear of flying, physical pain, rage, shame etc.
You can find out more about it from the book, 'Tapping the Healer
Within' by Roger Callahan - ISBN0-8092-9880-5.
Interestingly, a lot of the algorithms involve what Callahan calls the
'Psychological Reversal Point', know to acupuncturists as Small
Intestine 3. In a Traditional Chinese Medicine book I have, one of the
aspects of this point is that it 'strengthens the mind'!
Andi
<nico...@btinternet.com> writes
>Tradional Chinese Medicine practitioners will tell you that it is
>stupid to tap a meridian that does not need it as you can over energise
>the meridian.
And what are the physical symptoms, observable results, or subjective
evidence of an over-energised meridian?
--
Andi
Nic
group of acupoints on a meridian that are overenergised, that we can all
relate to is pain. In Traditional Chinese Medicine, where localised pain
exists after an impact trauma, they sedate the acupoints in the area to
draw out what they call 'over-energy'.
there are lots of books you can read on teh subject; unfortunately, many
only contain half the story or have been badly translated. One reliable
one is called 'Chinese Medical QiGong Therapy' and is written by Dr
Jerry Alan Johnson.
Hope this helps
Nic
glenny
Tom Vizzini wrote
>
> Nope and yes. Her is the problem I have with eft. It is wrapped in energy
> meridians and trigger point but they have nothing to do with the process.
How do you know for certain that energy pathways or points are not
being influenced when tapping and that that influence is not having
some affect on the problem
It
> is a straight hypnotic technique and nothing more.
It may well be an hypnotic technique but it doesnt mean that tapping
points doesnt influence the outcome in some way. As an acupuncturist
and a hypnotist Im open for both.
> It is collapsomg 2 anchors. One is the problem statement and the other is
> the feeling of loving and accepting yourself.
>
> That is it.
And what about those of us who use it without saying anything? No setup
statement, no affirmation, no setting and collapsing of anchors.....
>
> It can backfire. I have a friend that used in on a stop smoking client and
> she anded up loving and accepting that she smoked.
Sounds like your friend used it incorrectly...you are not accepting the
problem you are accepting yourself with the problem....a different
thing
Glenn
Tom Vizzini
"glenny" <lun...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126962597.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tom Vizzini wrote
> >
> > Nope and yes. Her is the problem I have with eft. It is wrapped in
energy
> > meridians and trigger point but they have nothing to do with the
process.
>
> How do you know for certain that energy pathways or points are not
> being influenced when tapping and that that influence is not having
> some affect on the problem
Because I have tested it along with several hypnotherapist froends of mine.
We have people tap the table and get the same results. We had them imagine
tapping and get the same results. So the energy and meridian crap is not
really part of the process. It is marketing hype.
>
> It
> > is a straight hypnotic technique and nothing more.
>
> It may well be an hypnotic technique but it doesnt mean that tapping
> points doesnt influence the outcome in some way. As an acupuncturist
> and a hypnotist Im open for both.
Hey I see an accupuncture practitioner regularly. I like it. I just don't
think EFT has anything to do with energy.
>
> > It is collapsomg 2 anchors. One is the problem statement and the other
is
> > the feeling of loving and accepting yourself.
> >
> > That is it.
>
> And what about those of us who use it without saying anything? No setup
> statement, no affirmation, no setting and collapsing of anchors.....
How would that happen? Exactly what would you say to the person? Exactly
what would you do?
> >
> > It can backfire. I have a friend that used in on a stop smoking client
and
> > she anded up loving and accepting that she smoked.
>
> Sounds like your friend used it incorrectly...you are not accepting the
> problem you are accepting yourself with the problem....a different
> thing
Nope. You are dead wrong on this one. He was very educated in EFT and the
idea of loving an accepting yourself WITH the problem does nothing to stop
the problem. It cause someone to accept herself as a smoker.
>
> Glenn
>
glenny
as far as using "sham" tapping (tapping a desk..imagined tapping etc)
of various kinds and getting a result with it, just because this works
and creates an affect, doesnt necesarily mean that "proper" tapping on
acupuncture points doesnt create an affect within the acupuncture
system that also works on a different level. I view EFT more as
bodywork rather than psychotherapy/hypnosis in much the same way as
various forms of massage (Shiatsu, Acupressure etc) can effect emotions
at a very deep level.
Now a good Shiatsu massage is pretty trance inducing in its own right
but the mechanism I feel is fundamentally different. I feel that
something more akin to this is happening rather than hypnosis when I
use EFT.
As far as intentional tapping is concerned, this is not all that
disimilar to qi kung work. Energy follows intention/attention. And
again qi kung often produces trance like affects but is it just
hypnosis.
As far as not using the I accept statement, I basically bring it back
to the body all the time. For example, a fear of heights, they will
feel this somewhere in their body. Their physiology changes as they
access it. If you calibrate this and tap, the feeling they are feeling,
changes as does their physiology. They dont have to say anything, in
fact the talking usually gets in the way as they attempt to make sense
of what they are experiencing as they describe it.
How I usually do this is by asking them "How can I help you... etc" as
they go into their speal they access the problem state. They hold
themselves in certain ways, touch certain areas of their body etc
essentially tuning in the state which is expressed in their body.
Whatever they do, I use as the starting place for tapping. They dont
need to say anything, just focus on where they are feeling what they
are feeling, which I guess is an anchor now that I think about it. I
tap until there is physiological change.
This change usually brings with it a dramatic change in the problem.
As far as smoking, my apologies for assuming the user in your example
did it wrong. Anything is possible I guess. However I have used EFT on
many smokers and have not had it happen or even heard of it happening
with this or any problem. As with any "condition" I treat, I bring it
back to the body. I no longer work with emotions as such but rather the
physical sensations that are labeled as anger, fear, shame etc No need
for any setup statement. In this case it may have caused this woman to
accept herself as a smoker, although my guess is that she wasnt too
un-accepeting of herself as a smoker in the first place (Im assuming
again I know). In the case of the person using EFT in this case was he
a hypnotist?
Regards
Glenn
Tom Vizzini
> Hi Tom,
>
> as far as using "sham" tapping (tapping a desk..imagined tapping etc)
> of various kinds and getting a result with it, just because this works
> and creates an affect, doesnt necesarily mean that "proper" tapping on
> acupuncture points doesnt create an affect within the acupuncture
> system that also works on a different level.
I disagree. It has all the structure of a hypnotic technique. On a more
basic level that hypnotic technique would be an anchor collapse. You're
taking one state and collapsing it with another state in hopes of making a
change.
I view EFT more as
> bodywork rather than psychotherapy/hypnosis in much the same way as
> various forms of massage (Shiatsu, Acupressure etc) can effect emotions
> at a very deep level.
>
> Now a good Shiatsu massage is pretty trance inducing in its own right
> but the mechanism I feel is fundamentally different. I feel that
> something more akin to this is happening rather than hypnosis when I
> use EFT.
EFT has nothing to do with shiatsu.
>
> As far as intentional tapping is concerned, this is not all that
> disimilar to qi kung work. Energy follows intention/attention. And
> again qi kung often produces trance like affects but is it just
> hypnosis.
This is where things start to bother me. Inducing the names of shiatsu, Qi
Gung, acupuncture and all other types of VALID Chinese medicine and trying
to tie their effectiveness to EFT is nothing more than marketing hype.
>
> As far as not using the I accept statement, I basically bring it back
> to the body all the time. For example, a fear of heights, they will
> feel this somewhere in their body. Their physiology changes as they
> access it. If you calibrate this and tap, the feeling they are feeling,
> changes as does their physiology. They dont have to say anything, in
> fact the talking usually gets in the way as they attempt to make sense
> of what they are experiencing as they describe it.
>
> How I usually do this is by asking them "How can I help you... etc" as
> they go into their speal they access the problem state.
This is a presupposition. The asking the question "how can I help you?"
You're presupposing that no matter what you do next that it is going to
help. If you wrap it up in enough Chinese medicine hype some people will
take that suggestion. Again a straight hypnotic technique.
>
> As far as smoking, my apologies for assuming the user in your example
> did it wrong. Anything is possible I guess. However I have used EFT on
> many smokers and have not had it happen or even heard of it happening
> with this or any problem. As with any "condition" I treat, I bring it
> back to the body. I no longer work with emotions as such but rather the
> physical sensations that are labeled as anger, fear, shame etc No need
> for any setup statement. In this case it may have caused this woman to
> accept herself as a smoker, although my guess is that she wasnt too
> un-accepeting of herself as a smoker in the first place (Im assuming
> again I know).
It doesn't matter what this woman thought. The bottom line is that EFT end
up doing more damage than good.
I don't mind the EFT as a hypnotic technique. Many times and it does get
results in very suggestible people. Trying to suggest that it has anything
to do with valid Chinese medicine or Energy Meridian's is just false. I
example of tapping a table or imagining that someone is tapping and still
getting the SAME results shows that energy meridians have nothing to do with
EFT.
>In the case of the person using EFT in this case was he
> a hypnotist?
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I guess he is a hypnotist.
He's also an educated naturaopath. He is not just a hypnotist.
You're free to believe anything you want. I just disagree
Tom
>
> Regards
>
> Glenn
>
Nic
> "glenny" <lun...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1127020482.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>Hi Tom,
>>
>>as far as using "sham" tapping (tapping a desk..imagined tapping etc)
>>of various kinds and getting a result with it, just because this works
>>and creates an affect, doesnt necesarily mean that "proper" tapping on
>>acupuncture points doesnt create an affect within the acupuncture
>>system that also works on a different level.
>
>
> I disagree. It has all the structure of a hypnotic technique. On a more
> basic level that hypnotic technique would be an anchor collapse. You're
> taking one state and collapsing it with another state in hopes of making a
> change.
>
Tom Vizzini
"Nic" <nico...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dglqcp$jia$1...@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Tom Vizzini wrote:
> > I disagree. It has all the structure of a hypnotic technique. On a
more
> > basic level that hypnotic technique would be an anchor collapse. You're
> > taking one state and collapsing it with another state in hopes of making
a
> > change.
> >
> Do you have the same opinion of TFT?
They are the same thing. The only difference is that TFT uses more
algorithms Where EFT uses only one.
Ironically Craig ( EFT) explains that he developed this theory after
witnessing several interesting phenomena.
(1) TFT therapists would often tap in the wrong positions and still get
positive results.
(2) TFT therapists would apply the wrong algorithms to the problem and still
obtain positive results. This may be anecdotal evidence of placebo
responding or just plain hypnotic suggestion.
Craig (EFT) theorized that the importance of learning to diagnosis and then
apply the correct algorithm to the problem, which Callahan (TFT) adamantly
asserts, is unnecessary.
Both are more easily explained as pattern interupts ot anchoring than
through energy and meridians.
--
Tom Vizzini
Real Skills for the Real World
www.essential-skills.com
New Gold Members Area www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1056
3D Mind www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043
Unknown
<T...@essential-skills.com> wrote:
>
>"glenny" <lun...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> as far as using "sham" tapping (tapping a desk..imagined tapping etc)
>> of various kinds and getting a result with it, just because this works
>> and creates an affect, doesnt necesarily mean that "proper" tapping on
>> acupuncture points doesnt create an affect within the acupuncture
>> system that also works on a different level.
>I disagree. It has all the structure of a hypnotic technique.
So does charismatic Christianity. What does that prove?
> On a more basic level that hypnotic technique would be an anchor collapse.
I agree with that. But that STILL doesn't prove that the energy
meridians are not relevant to the effect of the anchor collapse.
> You're
>taking one state and collapsing it with another state in hopes of making a
>change.
In hopes?
And that is different from 3D Mind how, exactly?
In both cases, you can only take the word of the client IN THE MOMENT
as they are feeling a change, and expect that you were successful. If
you actually take the trouble to watch some of Gary Craig's videos,
you may find that there is a bit more to it than collapsing anchors or
belief change.
>EFT has nothing to do with shiatsu.
On what authority do you say that? You talk as if you KNOW these
things to be true and everyone else who posts on this group should -
for some reason - defer to your greater knowledge.
For a guy who is trying to run a sales enterprise, Tom, you sure do
piss off a lot of your potential clients.
The meaning of the communication is in the response it gets? Then your
meaning is almost certainly not getting the results you want, Tom. At
least with me and those like me.
The map is not the territory? Your experience and what you have HEARD
about EFT gives you certainty about its efficacy and the workings of
its model(s)? Wow. I wish I was that all-knowing.
I dare say, it seldom results in more sales when your only sales tool
is to talk about how shitty the competition is, rather than simply not
commenting if you have nothing good to say about them, and focusing on
selling your OWN product rather than denigrating theirs.
With a name like "Vizzini" I'd expect a Catholic boy to know the
golden rule.
>This is where things start to bother me. Inducing the names of shiatsu, Qi
>Gung, acupuncture and all other types of VALID Chinese medicine and trying
>to tie their effectiveness to EFT is nothing more than marketing hype.
I almost spit out my water as I read that. HAH!
When did you become an expert on eastern medicine?
How do you KNOW that EFT doesn't have a sound foundation of eastern
medicine? Have you ever even watched any of Gary Craig's videos (let
alone been to a seminar)? He has guests on his videos, one of which is
an accupuncture/accupressure expert. He validated Gary's work.
>This is a presupposition.
Let me stop you there...
Geez, Tom. You talk about submodalities, collapsing anchors, and
presuppositions, but you say that NLP pales in comparison to your
awesome 3D Mind? Funny that 3D Mind uses anchors, anchor collapses,
submodalities, and many other aspects of NLP in order to be effective.
Again, I emphasize that trying to sell yourself by denigrating others
is a piss-poor way of doing it.
To Gary Craig's credit, he talks about how much better he is as an EFT
practitioner because he first established a foundation in NLP. He
didn't forget all about NLP and try to sell it repackaged with his
name on it... he simply (generously) says that it helps and is
worthwhile.
Now THAT is a guy I would trust and invest in training with.
>It doesn't matter what this woman thought. The bottom line is that EFT end
>up doing more damage than good.
Sorry, but that story sounds like just so much bullshit to me. Or the
EFT practitioner was a fricking idiot, one or the other.
>I don't mind the EFT as a hypnotic technique. Many times and it does get
>results in very suggestible people. Trying to suggest that it has anything
>to do with valid Chinese medicine or Energy Meridian's is just false.
Again: SAYS WHO!?
Do you even know enough about it to have an OPINION?
>I example of tapping a table or imagining that someone is tapping and still
>getting the SAME results shows that energy meridians have nothing to do with
>EFT.
So one anecdote discredits it? I hope your potential clients give you
more of a benefit of doubt than you gave EFT.
>You're free to believe anything you want. I just disagree
Your words indicate that you would prefer to decide FOR people what
they should believe.
Best,
Tom Eagles
Tom Vizzini
<Thomas Eagles> wrote in message
news:8l3cj1l51kec26fkl...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 09:12:30 -0400, "Tom Vizzini"
> <T...@essential-skills.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"glenny" <lun...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> >> as far as using "sham" tapping (tapping a desk..imagined tapping etc)
> >> of various kinds and getting a result with it, just because this works
> >> and creates an affect, doesnt necesarily mean that "proper" tapping on
> >> acupuncture points doesnt create an affect within the acupuncture
> >> system that also works on a different level.
>
> >I disagree. It has all the structure of a hypnotic technique.
>
>
> So does charismatic Christianity. What does that prove?
Wow, it is absolutely amazing that lengths that someone will go to. I'm not
sure what Christianity has do with this conversation. Comparing anything to
what I have said about EFT is irrelevant.
>
> > an a more basic level that hypnotic technique would be an anchor
collapse.
>
>
> I agree with that. But that STILL doesn't prove that the energy
> meridians are not relevant to the effect of the anchor collapse.
Now anchor collapses have something to do with energy meridians
>
>
> > You're
> >taking one state and collapsing it with another state in hopes of making
a
> >change.
>
>
> In hopes?
>
> And that is different from 3D Mind how, exactly?
How is different is that an anchor collapse hopes to overpower one state
with another. Setting an anchor to do an anchor collapse requires that you
artificially amplify one state in hopes of blowing out another one. That is
not how the 3-D Mind is used.
>
> >EFT has nothing to do with shiatsu.
>
>
> On what authority do you say that? You talk as if you KNOW these
> things to be true and everyone else who posts on this group should -
> for some reason - defer to your greater knowledge.
Nobody should ever defer to anything they read on the Internet. This is my
opinion backed up by my experience. It is also backed up by my research. I
have taken the EFT process and presented it to several Chinese medicine
experts who all seem to find it troubling.
I suggest that anybody do their own research. Of course you suggest that
people should blindly follow you and defer to your knowledge. It seems a
bit hypocritical
>
> For a guy who is trying to run a sales enterprise, Tom, you sure do
> piss off a lot of your potential clients.
>
> The meaning of the communication is in the response it gets? Then your
> meaning is almost certainly not getting the results you want, Tom. At
> least with me and those like me.
It doesn't sound like it takes very much to piss you off.
>
> The map is not the territory? Your experience and what you have HEARD
> about EFT gives you certainty about its efficacy and the workings of
> its model(s)? Wow. I wish I was that all-knowing.
It's not about what I have heard. It's about what I have experienced.
>
> I dare say, it seldom results in more sales when your only sales tool
> is to talk about how shitty the competition is, rather than simply not
> commenting if you have nothing good to say about them, and focusing on
> selling your OWN product rather than denigrating theirs.
I disagree. I am not denigrating anything. As a matter of fact I have
stated that EFT does work. It just doesn't work for the reasons that are
presented.
>
> With a name like "Vizzini" I'd expect a Catholic boy to know the
> golden rule.
What an incredibly racist remark. Why would anybody expect to know what
religion I am based upon my name or nationality? It seems that you make a
lot of leaps in what you think you know without doing any actual research.
>
> Let me stop you there...
>
> Geez, Tom. You talk about submodalities, collapsing anchors, and
> presuppositions, but you say that NLP pales in comparison to your
> awesome 3D Mind? Funny that 3D Mind uses anchors, anchor collapses,
> submodalities, and many other aspects of NLP in order to be effective.
The 3-D mind does not use anchors, anchor collapses nor submodalities. I
suggest you educate yourself more before making statements.
>
> >It doesn't matter what this woman thought. The bottom line is that EFT
end
> >up doing more damage than good.
>
>
> Sorry, but that story sounds like just so much bullshit to me. Or the
> EFT practitioner was a fricking idiot, one or the other.
So it can only be that I am a liar or the practitioner was an idiot? . The
difference between you and me is that when I heard it I ask more questions
about what was done. I asked if this was the only time that it happened. I
asked about the exact command and what the educational level of the
practitioner was. You on the other hand with the only give people two
choices. They can either believe I am a liar or that the practitioner was
an idiot. Interesting.
>
>
> >I don't mind the EFT as a hypnotic technique. Many times and it does get
> >results in very suggestible people. Trying to suggest that it has
anything
> >to do with valid Chinese medicine or Energy Meridian's is just false.
>
>
> Again: SAYS WHO!?
>
> Do you even know enough about it to have an OPINION?
Again the only point is to suggest that I am not educated enough to have an
opinion.
>
>
> >I example of tapping a table or imagining that someone is tapping and
still
> >getting the SAME results shows that energy meridians have nothing to do
with
> >EFT.
>
>
> So one anecdote discredits it? I hope your potential clients give you
> more of a benefit of doubt than you gave EFT.
Again you assume that there is only one.
>
>
> >You're free to believe anything you want. I just disagree
>
>
> Your words indicate that you would prefer to decide FOR people what
> they should believe.
Honestly you're having such an emotional response to this that it's hard to
keep on track. The only thing that I presented was with my experience with
EFT was. I also presented my opinion based upon what the experts in eastern
medicine that I know personally and even those that I have come in contact
with socially, have told me about what they think of the process.
That doesn't mean it does not work.
I could easily market the 3-D Mind as an energetic process. I could
marketed as many things but I prefer to market it as what it really it's.
That is simply a process that balances out the way that the brain works.
If that upsets you it says more about you than it does about me. I suggested
you want me to comment on anything onto say you form an intelligent well put
together post rather than a racist childish rant.
UnKaH
I wonder what would happen is a rapist or child molester stated that, I
love and accept myself for raping or molesting children.
>
> www.essential-skills.com
>
>
> >
UnKaH
the compulsion blowout. You think of your problem, start tapping,
tapping anchors the problem state, then the tapping starts it's
acceleration, to the point where it blows it out and all the anchors
are then collapsed, then pattern interrupts are introduced to take your
attention away from the original problem, while you reframe the problem
state. " I love and accept, blah, blah, blah.
I totally agree with Tom, this has nothing to do with chinese medicine
period. It has nothing to do with tapping meridians except to
accelerate the problem state. Which Tom has explained you can also tap
the table and get the same results.
So now, the hocus pocus of this technique is taken away, and your left
with the facts. This can be a useful technique applied properly, with
out the hype.
UnKaH
As I have read your statement above, what you are typically responding
too, is an emotional decision. You have decided to take away the facts
and let your emotions get involved, so there fore anything said by Mr.
Vizzini is rejected.
Fact One: If I can tap the meridians or tap the table and get the same
results, then the meridians actually have nothing to do with this
process.
Fact Two: You can get any expert to say anything, so the expert that
you quoted above, did he do scientific data on this EFT process to
validate it? Or is he just giving his expert opinion?
Fact Three: Tom is not interested in hype sales, his integrity dictates
that. If it is all about the sales and nothing else then that speaks
loudly for what you stand for.
Fact Four: Give me any scientific data on any of the things you quoted,
Qi Gong, accupunture, or shiatsu which will verify your opinion of EFT.
Fact Five: 3-D Mind is scientifically sound, based on scientific data
supplied by a man who's worked in the brain research business for
better than 20 years and is currently working for John Hopkins, doing
the exact same thing.
If your going to rely on your emotions to dictate your opinions than
maybe you should get some facts behind them.
Nic
Do your concerns about EFT also apply to TFT?
Regards
Nic
Tom Vizzini
> Tom
>
> Do your concerns about EFT also apply to TFT?
I don't really have any concerns about either. They both work but not for
the reasons that are attributed to them.
Anyone with even a little hypnotic training can see that both are hypnotic
techniques rather than an energy or meridian based process.
Have fun
Tom
Nic
>Snip
>
>
> I don't really have any concerns about either. They both work but not for
> the reasons that are attributed to them.
>
> Anyone with even a little hypnotic training can see that both are hypnotic
> techniques rather than an energy or meridian based process.
>
> Have fun
I'm sure you are right concerning EFT which is way too scattergun an
approach to be based on acupoints. I'm not so certain when it comes to
TFT as the algorithms they follow do make sense when you look at the
points they tap and their significance in Traditional Chinese Medicine.
Regards
Nic
glenny
about here Nic. And how do those points specifically make sense when
you match up those acu-points and there fucntions as an "antidote" for
a specific emotional state.
EFT as an approach is far more user freindly than TFT (IMO). Far from
being a scattergun approach (more descriptive of TFT, IMO) it usually
includes all the primary channels, not some algorithm that only
includes a couple of channels.
Without a diagnostic method, how do you know that you are tapping on
the correct points and channels? How do you know that at that point in
time that some other channels are not involved? Do you trust the
clients labelling of their experience, if they say its anger it must be
anger for example.
At least with EFT you stimulate all the primary channels. No need to
diagnose
And Tom, I still havent seen any proof that we are not influencing an
energy system when you tap. Thats just your opinion (one I respect btw)
It may not work the way we think it works, but how can you preclude the
idea that energy is absolutely positively 100% not being influenced?
Tapping a desk or table for example DOES influence acupuncture points
and channels, ask any acupuncturist. This in itself does not prove or
disprove anything. It is just comment on a particular phenomenon.
Glenn
Tom Vizzini
>
> And Tom, I still havent seen any proof that we are not influencing an
> energy system when you tap. Thats just your opinion (one I respect btw)
Here is the proof. If EFT was influencing an energy system then why does
tapping a table work as well as a meridian?
> It may not work the way we think it works, but how can you preclude the
> idea that energy is absolutely positively 100% not being influenced?
> Tapping a desk or table for example DOES influence acupuncture points
> and channels, ask any acupuncturist.
Sorry but this is just not true and counter to the claims of EFT. Lets take
this one step further. Another test was done and the subject just imagined
tapping.....same result.
You see, the claim is that tapping a specific meridian gets the result. If
that is not true then the whole premise is just fluff.
So any claim of a tie to meridians is false. They have no effect.
Now lets play with one part of the technique. It is the measuring of how
intense the problem is. On a scale of 1 to 10 what is the intensity. Ok now
insert any crap in the middle and then ask " how does it feel now?"
The presupposition is that there is going to be a change for the better.
Since that change is presupposed then the subject is lead to answer that it
has decreased. This is a straight hypnotic techique.
I did a test with a completely fake therapy. I called it spin therapy. The
premise was that problems have a physical direction that the pulled the body
and moving the body in the opposite direction would take the feelings away.
So we identified an problem state. I asked which direction that that feeling
pulled the body (presupposition). Then I folowed that with saying " so
moving this way makes it feel worse?" Of course it did. Then I told them to
feel what the intensity of the feeling was on a scale from one to ten. After
we found the level I would say " Ok lets move that feeling in the other
direction by spinning the body the other way" Then I would ask " How does
that feel now?" 8 out of 10 people would tell me that they felt better.
If you set stuff up with the right presuppositions you can have any effect
you want.
Tom
glenny
Tom Vizzini wrote:
> "glenny" <lun...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1128132135.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> >
> > And Tom, I still havent seen any proof that we are not influencing an
> > energy system when you tap. Thats just your opinion (one I respect btw)
>
> Here is the proof. If EFT was influencing an energy system then why does
> tapping a table work as well as a meridian?
>
>
> > It may not work the way we think it works, but how can you preclude the
> > idea that energy is absolutely positively 100% not being influenced?
> > Tapping a desk or table for example DOES influence acupuncture points
> > and channels, ask any acupuncturist.
>
> Sorry but this is just not true and counter to the claims of EFT.
I am making an assupmtion here and assuming that when you tap the table
you are using your fingers to do so. Some alternate point locations for
the ending of certain meridians are the finger tips. Therefore if you
are tapping with your fingers you are in effect tapping acupoints. And
what claims specifically is it counter to EFT?
Lets take
> this one step further. Another test was done and the subject just imagined
> tapping.....same result.
Basic hypnosis stuff...if you imagine your hand getting hotter for
example ....it gets hotter. if you imagine it getting tingly
sensations....that happens. Someone versed in acupuncture/qi gong etc
might look at this as intention creating an affect within the energy
system. Not just the suggestion of the change, but a physical affect
(measurable) in relation to the the suggestion of the change. What
medium allows these physiological changes. If I imagine stimulating a
point, why would it surprise you to have some change. I would be
surprised if it didnt.
>
> You see, the claim is that tapping a specific meridian gets the result.
No this is NOT the claim. Nowhere does EFT claim that tapping a
SPECIFIC meridian gets a result. It claims that tapping all the primary
meridians and a few extra meridians gets the result.TFT claims that
specific meridians get specific results. I am talking about EFT,
specifically.
If
> that is not true then the whole premise is just fluff.
I agree its not true for the above reason, but your premise is based on
in incorrect claim.
>
> So any claim of a tie to meridians is false. They have no effect.
>
> Now lets play with one part of the technique. It is the measuring of how
> intense the problem is. On a scale of 1 to 10 what is the intensity. Ok now
> insert any crap in the middle and then ask " how does it feel now?"
As I mentioned in a previous post, I dont do any talking. I dont
evaluate in the above manner. It still works. I used to evaluate
however, and sometimes I would get people saying it is worse. So I
guess this could swing both ways
>
> The presupposition is that there is going to be a change for the better.
Not neccesarily and in my experience not always.
> Since that change is presupposed then the subject is lead to answer that it
> has decreased. This is a straight hypnotic techique.
I agree. But just because its one thing doesnt preclude that it could
be another, or a hundred other things also. I am not saying it couldnt
be hypnosis, I am just saying that it could be an energy flow
technique. Theoretically,it is very consistent with acupuncture theory.
I called it spin therapy. The
> premise was that problems have a physical direction that the pulled the body
> and moving the body in the opposite direction would take the feelings away.
> So we identified an problem state. I asked which direction that that feeling
> pulled the body (presupposition). Then I folowed that with saying " so
> moving this way makes it feel worse?" Of course it did. Then I told them to
> feel what the intensity of the feeling was on a scale from one to ten. After
> we found the level I would say " Ok lets move that feeling in the other
> direction by spinning the body the other way" Then I would ask " How does
> that feel now?" 8 out of 10 people would tell me that they felt better.
Doesn't sound very fake to me. An 80% success rate. Most therapists
would kill for that kind of success.
>
> If you set stuff up with the right presuppositions you can have any effect
> you want.
Would you say that 3D minds effectiveness is based exclusively on using
the right presuppositions?
I agree 100%. Presuppositions can be incredibly powerful. I agree with
everything you are saying Tom with regard to suggestion and how you
could very easily frame EFT in this light. I just think that its
possible to have more than one explanation for whats happening with EFT
Glenn
Tom Vizzini
>
> >
> > > It may not work the way we think it works, but how can you preclude
the
> > > idea that energy is absolutely positively 100% not being influenced?
> > > Tapping a desk or table for example DOES influence acupuncture points
> > > and channels, ask any acupuncturist.
> >
> > Sorry but this is just not true and counter to the claims of EFT.
>
> I am making an assupmtion here and assuming that when you tap the table
> you are using your fingers to do so. Some alternate point locations for
> the ending of certain meridians are the finger tips. Therefore if you
> are tapping with your fingers you are in effect tapping acupoints. And
> what claims specifically is it counter to EFT?
This is ridiculus. If this is true then why not just tap the tips of you
fingers? It is counter because EFT suggests SPECIFIC acupoints. Anyone even
mildly educated in accupressure or accupuncture understand that meridians
are spcific channel;s of energy. Just tapping any of them does not get the
desired effects. The liver meridian governs specific body systems. If you
ignore that fact and suggest that tapping anywhere on the body is a
suggested acupoint then you are counter to any accupressure or accupunture
teachings. So then you can't suggest that EFT is tied to any of those
processes.
It is just common sense.
>
> Lets take
> > this one step further. Another test was done and the subject just
imagined
> > tapping.....same result.
>
> Basic hypnosis stuff...if you imagine your hand getting hotter for
> example ....it gets hotter. if you imagine it getting tingly
> sensations....that happens.
Yep basic hypnosis when followed with the HYPNOTIC suggestion that you will
feel better. Which is exactly what happens in EFT.
Someone versed in acupuncture/qi gong etc
> might look at this as intention creating an affect within the energy
> system. Not just the suggestion of the change, but a physical affect
> (measurable) in relation to the the suggestion of the change. What
> medium allows these physiological changes. If I imagine stimulating a
> point, why would it surprise you to have some change. I would be
> surprised if it didnt.
So tapping can now be removed from EFT? Is that what you are stating?
Interesting thought.
>
> >
> > You see, the claim is that tapping a specific meridian gets the result.
>
> No this is NOT the claim. Nowhere does EFT claim that tapping a
> SPECIFIC meridian gets a result. It claims that tapping all the primary
> meridians and a few extra meridians gets the result.TFT claims that
> specific meridians get specific results. I am talking about EFT,
> specifically.
Which moves EFT even further fom any chinese medicine at all. No
accupuncture practritioner would ever suggest tapping ALL primary meridians.
If you truly believe in accupressure or accupuncture you would know how
dangerous that would be.
>
> If
> > that is not true then the whole premise is just fluff.
>
> I agree its not true for the above reason, but your premise is based on
> in incorrect claim.
I disagree. I think everything you have stated just makes my points
stronger.
>
> >
> > So any claim of a tie to meridians is false. They have no effect.
> >
> > Now lets play with one part of the technique. It is the measuring of how
> > intense the problem is. On a scale of 1 to 10 what is the intensity. Ok
now
> > insert any crap in the middle and then ask " how does it feel now?"
>
> As I mentioned in a previous post, I dont do any talking. I dont
> evaluate in the above manner. It still works. I used to evaluate
> however, and sometimes I would get people saying it is worse. So I
> guess this could swing both ways
Again proving that tapping is all fluff. If it really worked energetically,
as advertised, then it would always work the same way. Since you admit that
sometimes it made things worse just again proves my point.
>
> >
> > The presupposition is that there is going to be a change for the better.
>
> Not neccesarily and in my experience not always.
Really? What is the language used while tapping again?
>
>
> > Since that change is presupposed then the subject is lead to answer that
it
> > has decreased. This is a straight hypnotic techique.
>
> I agree. But just because its one thing doesnt preclude that it could
> be another, or a hundred other things also. I am not saying it couldnt
> be hypnosis, I am just saying that it could be an energy flow
> technique. Theoretically,it is very consistent with acupuncture theory.
I disagree. Since it is a hypnotic technique and is counter to acupuncture
theory it is not accupunture.
>
>
> I called it spin therapy. The
> > premise was that problems have a physical direction that the pulled the
body
> > and moving the body in the opposite direction would take the feelings
away.
> > So we identified an problem state. I asked which direction that that
feeling
> > pulled the body (presupposition). Then I folowed that with saying " so
> > moving this way makes it feel worse?" Of course it did. Then I told them
to
> > feel what the intensity of the feeling was on a scale from one to ten.
After
> > we found the level I would say " Ok lets move that feeling in the other
> > direction by spinning the body the other way" Then I would ask " How
does
> > that feel now?" 8 out of 10 people would tell me that they felt better.
>
> Doesn't sound very fake to me. An 80% success rate. Most therapists
> would kill for that kind of success.
Yes but how long was the success? Not long. But they did say they felt
better because I lead them to that feeling.
>
> I agree 100%. Presuppositions can be incredibly powerful. I agree with
> everything you are saying Tom with regard to suggestion and how you
> could very easily frame EFT in this light. I just think that its
> possible to have more than one explanation for whats happening with EFT
I would agree if EFT was not counter to any accupunture theory that I have
ever heard of. Add to that the Gary Craig has refused to do any double blind
testing on the process:
" In fact, EFT guru Gary Craig maintains that a control placebo "algorithm"
may be impossible because tapping anywhere on the body would affect the
body's "energy meridians." According to Gaudiano and Herbert, "This position
conveniently renders Craig's theory unfalsifiable and therefore outside the
realm of science." Callahan has also ruled out the possibility of placebo
controls. "
From http://www.csicop.org/list/listarchive/msg00072.html
I suggest you learn more about chinese medicine and do it form a source
other than EFT trainers.
--
Tom Vizzini
Real Skills for the Real World
www.essential-skills.com
New Gold Members Area www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1056
3D Mind www.essential-skills.com/content.php?cid=1043
>
>
> Glenn
>
Tom Vizzini
>
> "glenny" <lun...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1128175174....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
>
> >
> > >
> > > The presupposition is that there is going to be a change for the
better.
> >
> > Not neccesarily and in my experience not always.
>
> Really? What is the language used while tapping again?
I wanted to address this after I looked it up to make sure I was right.
Even though I have this ________, I deeply love and accept myself
So lets take a look:
(Even though)--This presupposes that there is an opposite coming up
( I have this)-- Generates disassociation from the problem as being
something they have and not part of who they are or their identity. Also
this begins a pace of their reality.
(I deeply love and accept myself)--Straight hypnotic command given after a
presupposition and disassiciation. Then leads them in a direction completing
the pace and lead.
Seems simple enough to anyone who has studies hypnotic language techniques.
glenny
better.
> > Not neccesarily and in my experience not always.
> Really? What is the language used while tapping again?
I wanted to address this after I looked it up to make sure I was right.
Even though I have this ________, I deeply love and accept myself
So lets take a look:
(Even though)--This presupposes that there is an opposite coming up
( I have this)-- Generates disassociation from the problem as being
something they have and not part of who they are or their identity.
Also
this begins a pace of their reality.
(I deeply love and accept myself)--Straight hypnotic command given
after a
presupposition and disassiciation. Then leads them in a direction
completing
the pace and lead.
Seems simple enough to anyone who has studies hypnotic language
techniques.
--
Tom Vizzini
I agre with all of the above. However I dont use this statement, I used
to. As far as feelings sometimes getting worse, your example of the
smoker who now loves and accepts their smoking shows that the setup in
and of itself doesnt always create a better feeling. Are we agreeing
here Tom?? :)
Simply shows that hypnotic language patterns dont always deliver the
expected or desired results ..eg your smoker...unless that was the
desired or expected result.
Regards
Glenn
Tom Vizzini
> to. As far as feelings sometimes getting worse, your example of the
> smoker who now loves and accepts their smoking shows that the setup in
> and of itself doesnt always create a better feeling. Are we agreeing
> here Tom?? :)
Yep totally agreeing and thanks again for making my point. No self
respecting hypnotist would ever structure such a destructive command. What
it does prove is that energy meridians have nothing to do with EFT. In your
zeal to prove me wrong on one point you have made the bigger case against
EFT. If it was about merdians and energy then there would never be a
damaging experience.
I think I have made my point here. You may have the last word.
glenny
When dealing just with meridians it is possible to make a condition
worse. If you tonify instead of sedate for example, you can get a
worsening of the condition.
The setup phrase is a focusing tool, if someone was in need of sedating
energetically speaking, then focusing on it may have contributed to an
increase in their experience of the problem state at the time. I think
this is important because in the cases where I have experienced a
worsening of the state, it was in the order of a minute or two (too
long for me so I looked for ways to make it gentler). In all cases, the
problem was resolved. They didnt go home with a love of their problem
(smoker example). They went home having achieved what they wanted.
In the case of people experiencing this I would say that there would
have been less than ten over a 5 year period, On the plus side I have
used EFT on over 1500 people effectively in that time. Effectively
meaning, they got what they wanted.
Also in your second last post you suggested that I learn more about
Chinese Medicine rather than rely on my training from EFters. Well for
what its worth I have a degree in Traditional Chinese Medicine having
recived my training here in Australia as well as serving an internship
in China. I have been in clinical practice for 8 years as a
TCM/acupunturist. Just wanting to get things clear.
Glenn
Nic
> I do believe that EFT is nothing more than the same technique used in
> the compulsion blowout. You think of your problem, start tapping,
> tapping anchors the problem state, then the tapping starts it's
> acceleration, to the point where it blows it out and all the anchors
> are then collapsed, then pattern interrupts are introduced to take your
> attention away from the original problem, while you reframe the problem
> state. " I love and accept, blah, blah, blah.
>
about TFT.
Nic