Unk's wisdom for the day.
Cameron
"Cameron and the rest of this group, I must apologize for my behavior. I
took a long nap this afternoon and got a personal visit from God, he
was quite mad to say the least.
He admonished me to quit being abusive and apologize to all I have
offended. So I will offer my sincerest apology and just hope that you
can find it in your hearts to forgive me.
Well I certainly feel so much better now and think I might just go out
and celebrate, I'm rather light in the wallet these days so Cameron,
how much does your grandmother charge?
*LOL* and just when you thought it couldn't get any worst. I won't be
back for about 4 days so have at it. I'm giving a seminar on how to be
rude and obnoxious and how to pick up lonely grandmothers"
DBC
why botheer corresponding with these people? They are jsut not worth it
"Cameron" <cbrow...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4407d27f$0$1276$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Cameron
"DBC" <d...@dbc.com> wrote in message news:du8jt0$k3l$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> cameron,
> why bother corresponding with these people? They are jsut not worth it
Motly because they seem to believe that it hurts my feelings, and since I've
started they havent been abusing anyone else.
On topic posts have been up the last few days, their trolling time has been
wasted in deep threads towards me which are easily ignorable by others, and
we havent had anything like Unks "NLP's greatest flaw exposed the miners are
alive pattern" troll since he's been ranting in my direction.
Which leaves the question, why did I cut and paste his post to a new thread?
Phil is the only sane 3-d mind person I've encountered, he handles
objections with a continued non inflamatory restatement of his position and
ignores any questions that could draw him into debate. He also adds valuable
on toppic information.
Unk, whatever his real name is, and Tom seem to believe that abusing anyone
who questions them will be an effective strategy to drive people away who
question them. Not being the weak willed moron they keep ranting that I am,
I do enjoy the occasional vitriolic assult, and it's public airing.
That a belief system which is allegedly great for balancing the mind it's an
amazingly unbalanced performance, before anyone sends in their $70 I thought
they should see the results that it produces, at lest in Unk and Tom's case.
Tom Vizzini
"Cameron" <cbrow...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4407d27f$0$1276$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Wrong dumb ass...... The 3D mind is not a commuication sklls model.
Is there anything you can get right?
phill_coxon
> who questions them will be an effective strategy to drive people away who
> question them.
Now that's just nonsense really isn't it Cameron? Tom & Unka aren't
trying to drive anyone away.
Maybe they're just tired of some people who jump up and down making
accusations and demanding proof who haven't appeared to make any real
effort to look at the facts.
Out of interest I've just spent 10 minutes looking through the 3D Brain
archive. In this quick glance I've found 42 separate posts by Dr Ken
that document various physical and chemical processes in the brain.
Many of these articles directly and indirectly discuss these brain
processes in relation to Dr Ken's 3D Brain model and the 3D Mind
process.
For example, searching for articles by Ken with subjects including
"Factoid", "Brain Structure 101", "Cortex: Brain 101" will turn up
some relevant material.
So before you jump up and down claiming that Tom and Unkah simply abuse
anyone who questions them, please tell me how many of these articles
have you've actually taken the time to read as Tom has repeatedly
suggested?
> That a belief system which is allegedly great for balancing the mind it's an
> amazingly unbalanced performance, before anyone sends in their $70 I thought
> they should see the results that it produces, at lest in Unk and Tom's case.
Another misleading claim Cameron, which I don't appreciate.
Feel free to question Tom & Unkah's attitude, but please don't start
making baseless claims about the effectiveness of 3D Mind.
You have consistently failed to make an effort to discuss or examine
the issue of 3D Mind's effectiveness, even when I have encouraged you
to do so and have given provided you plenty of reference information.
Taking the phrase "balancing the mind" out of context and associating
it with your *perception* of Tom & Unkah's "unbalanced performance" and
"the results it produces" is simply your opinion and has nothing to do
with fact. Such an claim has no correlation with the effectiveness of
3D Mind. None. Period.
If you want to discuss the effectiveness of 3D Mind - let's do that.
In fact, I'd welcome that.
But please, don't make claims about the process simply because of your
personal dislike of Tom and Unkah's responses to your posts.
Fair enough?
John
wrote:
>> Unk, whatever his real name is, and Tom seem to believe that abusing anyone
>> who questions them will be an effective strategy to drive people away who
>> question them.
>
>Now that's just nonsense really isn't it Cameron? Tom & Unka aren't
>trying to drive anyone away.
I'm afraid that is actually incorrect Phil. Unka has stated on this
group - (Quote "I am here to drive away NLP trainers"). You might want
to confirm his current intent on this group when you next talk to him.
If that has changed he may want to take the opportunity to let us
know.
Tom has not stated AFAIK, that but there cannot be more than 1 in 500
of his posts that do not either promote or defend the product he has
on sale.
>Maybe they're just tired of some people who jump up and down making
>accusations and demanding proof who haven't appeared to make any real
>effort to look at the facts.
>
>Out of interest I've just spent 10 minutes looking through the 3D Brain
>archive. In this quick glance I've found 42 separate posts by Dr Ken
>that document various physical and chemical processes in the brain.
>Many of these articles directly and indirectly discuss these brain
>processes in relation to Dr Ken's 3D Brain model and the 3D Mind
>process.
>
>For example, searching for articles by Ken with subjects including
>"Factoid", "Brain Structure 101", "Cortex: Brain 101" will turn up
>some relevant material.
OK I did a search on "Brain Structure 101 ken" and found no reference
to the 3DMind except for this question which I couldn't see an answer
for.
"So you're saying that it's the prefrontal region that mediates
whether we run purely on reactivity or use creative/adaptive
responses in any given moment? So would practices like meditation or
3D Mind lead to strengthening this area of the brain? If so, what
other kinds of practices might do the same? What other kinds of
activity, mental or otherwise, is the prefrontal cortex involved in?
And can ya give any more specifics about how the prefrontal cortex is
involved in 3D Mind? :)" from someone called Dave Foris
What a great question.
There is also this from hedleystjohnwilson - "Also as I've said what's
interesting is the anecdotal evidence I've come across where people
who aren't ill take anti-depressents because for them they claim the
pills make them feel better than good.
I'd be also interrested whether 3dmind does the same thing with the
brain."
And the response from Neo - "a controlled study comparing the two
would be hard to design but interesting..."
Phil, are you seriously suggesting that part of my education process
should be ploughing through hundreds of posts like this about the 3D
Brain, which nobody here has refuted, going up endless blind alleys
and flames looking for text from Ken with a reference to the 3D mind
in it.
If you have something concrete from Ken the supports the 3D Mind why
not simply put it up here instead of continuing to refer to it
tangentially.
What is also interesting is that there appear to be just as many
arguments going on along the same lines as in this group. The
difference being that dissenters there are thrown out with some
satisfaction. Thank God for the anarchy of the newsgroup I guess
>So before you jump up and down claiming that Tom and Unkah simply abuse
>anyone who questions them, please tell me how many of these articles
>have you've actually taken the time to read as Tom has repeatedly
>suggested?
>
>> That a belief system which is allegedly great for balancing the mind it's an
>> amazingly unbalanced performance, before anyone sends in their $70 I thought
>> they should see the results that it produces, at lest in Unk and Tom's case.
>
>Another misleading claim Cameron, which I don't appreciate.
>
>Feel free to question Tom & Unkah's attitude, but please don't start
>making baseless claims about the effectiveness of 3D Mind.
Not attitude Phil but behaviour.
You're right though. Nothing to do with facts that would hold up in a
scientific laboratory or a court of law. Unfortunately for the 3D mind
group that is not the way people think.
We do equate the results claimed about the 3D Mind with observations
of the behaviour of those that use it. Are you really saying there is
absolutely NO LINK between those two.
Our models of the world are created through our belief systems which
continually receives data that confirms or adjust those models or
sometimes may even throw them out altogether.
What we are told is that, for example from Harun "So balance basically
means, [as delivered through the 3D Mind process presumably] no button
that people or events can push, which results in you having the choice
to do anything you want."
What we are now able to do, admittedly on a small an unrepresentative
group is observe responses to posts examples of which have been quoted
before including this from Tom about a year ago - "If you are going to
personally attack me I am going to have a unfavourable reaction".
If I am looking for something to deal with a phobia I might have
should I not take this into account?
>You have consistently failed to make an effort to discuss or examine
>the issue of 3D Mind's effectiveness, even when I have encouraged you
>to do so and have given provided you plenty of reference information.
>
>Taking the phrase "balancing the mind" out of context and associating
>it with your *perception* of Tom & Unkah's "unbalanced performance" and
> "the results it produces" is simply your opinion and has nothing to do
>with fact. Such an claim has no correlation with the effectiveness of
>3D Mind. None. Period.
>
>If you want to discuss the effectiveness of 3D Mind - let's do that.
>In fact, I'd welcome that.
I thought you said you were done with marketing the effectiveness of
the 3D Mind here.
NLP has a lot to do with processes. Why don't you tell us about some
of the processes used in the 3D Mind system. That would be more
interesting instead endless streams along the lines of
"I was depressed and suicidal and then I found the 3D Mind and now I
am married with 2 kids and a job and a dog and a cat and my life as of
2 weeks ago is now permanently wonderful. Thank you Tom and Kim"
One of these is more than enough for anybody don't you agree?
--
John
Cameron
"phill_coxon" <ph...@getresults.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1141452133.3...@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> Unk, whatever his real name is, and Tom seem to believe that abusing
>> anyone
>> who questions them will be an effective strategy to drive people away who
>> question them.
>
> Now that's just nonsense really isn't it Cameron? Tom & Unka aren't
> trying to drive anyone away.
Actually phil, it was only a week before you turned up when he was bragging
that he had driven away some NLP trainers.
It might be an over vivid imagination, but it's his.
Maybe they're just tired of some people who jump up and down making
> accusations and demanding proof who haven't appeared to make any >real
> effort to look at the facts.
Or even to go to the effort to find some real facts to present?
Besides what the hell in your opinion does my grandmother have to do with
it?
> So before you jump up and down claiming that Tom and Unkah simply >abuse
> anyone who questions them, please tell me how many of these >articles have
> you've actually taken the time to read as Tom has repeatedly
> suggested?
I have taken the time, and as I have pointed out several times Ken has
described the list in appropriately negative terms.
I have asked for relevant links or details on where in the 1400 or so posts
I might find something relevant. I've been asking for a while now.
your responce here has been the first that has suggested decent search
terms. Tom just called me a moron because I spent half an hour reading
various abuse on the list.
You have read it phil? you have noticed the abuse there too?
>> That a belief system which is allegedly great for balancing the mind it's
>> >>an amazingly unbalanced performance, before anyone sends in their $70
>> >>I thought they should see the results that it produces, at lest in Unk
>> and >>Tom's case.
> Another misleading claim Cameron, which I don't appreciate.
what was it again that I claimed there? and how was that claim misleading.
Unk's troll "the miners are alive" is not a troll?
He hasn't claimed credit for driving away nlp trainers from what is a nlp
news group?
Offering to rent out someone's grandmother for sex isn't unbalanced?
It might be part of your normal communication strategy, I do think that in
unk's case from what I've seen it is part of his.
> Feel free to question Tom & Unkah's attitude, but please don't start
> making baseless claims about the effectiveness of 3D Mind.
Umm, Phil, you missed the place where I commented that you do add usefull
information, just fail to answer questions that could lead you into debate,
did you last post alter the pattern?
> You have consistently failed to make an effort to discuss or examine
> the issue of 3D Mind's effectiveness, even when I have encouraged you
> to do so and have given provided you plenty of reference information.
Because, Phil, as you know from having read my posts, I am not disputing
that, and as you have read me say before, the main exposure to the 3-d mind
that I have had is Tom, Unk and the 3-d brain list. The web sites are full
of sales pitch and testmonials, the rest are full of abuse.
> Taking the phrase "balancing the mind" out of context and associating
> it with your *perception* of Tom & Unkah's "unbalanced performance" >and
> "the results it produces" is simply your opinion and has nothing to do
> with fact. Such an claim has no correlation with the effectiveness of
> 3D Mind. None. Period.
So unk calling ritchard bandler a Coked up alcho with a shady past and
smearing all of NLP with that observationis relevant. Tom having wobblies in
public and Unk (mosterbrat) threatening to molest my grandmother is
irrelevant?
> If you want to discuss the effectiveness of 3D Mind - let's do that.
>
> In fact, I'd welcome that.
We have already discussed in other threads that it's not an option. The only
results that I see of 3-d mind are what I've been showen and referd to here.
I've seen a real neuroscientist rip up Ken on the 3-d mind list.
I've seen Unk scrape the bottom of the barrel both in communication with me
and even before I was posting here.
And I've seen Tom engage in name calling that a ten year old would be
ashamed of.
You, with a few exceptions have avoided name calling, and as I have said
haev added valuable content (mostly about nlp) in threads.
> But please, don't make claims about the process simply because of your
> personal dislike of Tom and Unkah's responses to your posts.
>
> Fair enough?
No Phil, not fair at all.
You do remember, do you not, my comments that a motor mower manufacturers
public communication is not relevant to the value of the mowers they sell,
but in the case of model of the world effecting training
Prehaps people would be better served training with a system that was
founded by someone who can maintain their cool adn communicate effectively?
Why then do you ask me if your suggestion is fair? you know I reject it?
Just in case you answer a question, rather than restating your position
again why is it fair to ignore a 56? year old who posts from an account
called monsterbrat and sounds more like someone who suffers from tourettes
than someone who is a close associate and very admiring of the great system
that helped him get over all his problems in only 3 minutes?
Why is it fair to ignore the fact that Tom is openly abusive of a great many
individuals, some he has never met?
Why do you suggest that is fair?
phill_coxon
> to the 3DMind except for this question which I couldn't see an answer
> for.
Oh come on. I didn't suggest search for a subject "Brain Structure 101
ken" did I? I gave you three search topics and one of them was "Brain
Structure 101". Ken isn't about to put his own name in a post subject
randomly is he?
>And can ya give any more specifics about how the prefrontal cortex is
> involved in 3D Mind? :)" from someone called Dave Foris
Dave Foris is one of the best 3D Mind students in the world. He
recently graduated with a psychology degree. From what I remember he
was at the New York seminar where Dr Ken gave a 3 hour presentation on
the 3D Brain model. What I do know for sure is that Dave doesn't have
a problem with the 3D Brain model. He researched it against his
training and asked good questions like the one you've found.
Now if you read the archive you'll see that Ken answers his questions
in another thread and if you actually refer to the subjects I gave you
to you're going to get a bunch of related information and more.
> I thought you said you were done with marketing the effectiveness of
> the 3D Mind here.
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I was fine until Cameron started
to make silly claims just because he has a pet peeve with Tom and
Unkah. I simply asked that he separate his feelings towards Unkah and
Tom from claims about the effectiveness.
phill_coxon
I only asked that you stop making suggestions that your perception of
Tom and Unkah have anything to do with the effectiveness or worthiness
of 3D Mind.
Instead both John and yourself felt you had to come back and post the
same old stuff again. While one of your key points seems to be Tom and
Unkah's behaviour and how "reactive' they are, you just can't help
being reactive yourself.
And so all we get is this ongoing slugfest which is of no value to
anybody.
The net summary is this:
You want evidence. You're not going to get what you want unless you
get of your butt and really read what's in the 3D Brain list. Or wait
for the evidence that is going to be released soon.
It's clear Tom and Unkah don't care whether you believe what they say
or not.
About the best you can do is agree to disagree and wait.
Every person reading this list will have to make a decision for
themselves about 3D Mind.
If you feel it's important to jump up and down out of some need to
protect others from the possibility of being ripped off, then I guess
you'll have to continue. Or if your motivation to continue is simply
because lack of scientific "evidence" is your pet peeve, or you just
don't like Tom & Unkah fine.
Hopefully at some point the discussion in this group will get to useful
discussion rather than just ego's at play.
Cameron
technology resort to name calling irrelevant to this discussion?
"phill_coxon" <ph...@getresults.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1141501685.2...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> You know what Cameron, I give up.
Probably a wise move,
To quote a woman from the east bank "we will not stop, because they will not
stop because we will not stop"
I have agreed with you repeatedly that this is a futile endeavour.
> I only asked that you stop making suggestions that your perception of
> Tom and Unkah have anything to do with the effectiveness or worthiness
> of 3D Mind.
Tom founded it? his behaviour is perhaps relevant?
> Instead both John and yourself felt you had to come back and post the
> same old stuff again. While one of your key points seems to be Tom and
> Unkah's behaviour and how "reactive' they are, you just can't help
> being reactive yourself.
Yes, I agree, both sides are locked in irreconcilable conflict, John and I
have exchanged a few e-mails Tom and Unk (whatever his real name is) are
closely associated in real life.
Speaking for myself, I'me not selling a "non reactive" technology or selling
anything at all so reacting doesn't leave me in hypocrisy or making a bad
public example of a technology I founded or sell.
Not sure why Tom continues this way. This is the relevance between his
behaviuor and his alleged technology that I keep drawing yoru attention to.
Glad to see you got my point.
<phils summary>
> You want evidence. You're not going to get what you want unless you
> get of your butt and really read what's in the 3D Brain list. Or wait
> for the evidence that is going to be released soon.
Waiting, have been waiting since I first asked the question, have offered to
shut up in the face of evidence. Have shut up and revised my position as new
facts have became available before.
The 3-d Brain list, as I've pointed out to you 6? times already is mostly an
abuse fest. It's not laziness, incompetence or inability to read that has
stoped me finding the details, it is the fact that Ken describes the list as
a sorry excuse, People not toeing the line there get abused than thrown out.
My experience of the list, including posts from someone who has much more
academic credibility than the medical doctor Ken who was belittled ridiculed
tand then throwen out.
The issue I raise, and keep raising is.
WHY
IF 3-D MIND IS SO GOOD AT CREATING NON REACTIVE PATTERNS
DO ALL (except mostly yourself) THE 3-D MIND MATERIALS I SEE CONTAIN
MASSIVELY REACTIVE RESPONSES TO ANY QUESTIONING?
You have read the list, you have seen the abuse, what is your position on
this situation?
Do you accept it ?
Do you ignore it?
Do you justify it?
> It's clear Tom and Unkah don't care whether you believe what they say
> or not.
They have ignored and belittled people who are better educated than me.
Tom usually compares himself to Einstein or Freud when faced with academic
criticism.
Unk retreats into "what do I care college boy" or something similar.
Along with lashings of "weak willed moron" from both parties.
Not a great role model to follow? Not material I wish to expose myself to?
> About the best you can do is agree to disagree and wait.
Depends on my aims. Read the third post in this thread for more explanation
of them.
Besides you and I agreed to this a while ago, why are you still poking at
me? Why are the vast majority of yoru posts restating your position rather
than either discussing or ignoring irrelevant material?
> Every person reading this list will have to make a decision for
> themselves about 3D Mind.
And decisions are best made with information no?
I am actually looking forward to those recorded sessions that you mentioned
you were hoping to provide. That is evidence that I could accept, a real
event to sink my teeth into and real results to respect.
In the mean time I will continue to request information on why Tom considers
his model to be backed by science.
I will continue to watch his reactive and abusive response to people who
dare question his revealed truth.
And I will continue to point out that it is not just me that he abuses, he
does abuse people he has not met yet as well.
> If you feel it's important to jump up and down out of some need to
> protect others from the possibility of being ripped off, then I guess
> you'll have to continue.
Read the 3rd post in this thread, I spelt out my motivations there.
> Or if your motivation to continue is simply
> because lack of scientific "evidence" is your pet peeve,
Only from those that claim to have it, and offer to sell to people based on
that.
It's only a small section of the population who have bothered to educated
themselves in science, no problem there it hasn't made me any happier. When
someone claims backing of science then yes I will ask for the proof, it's a
con mans tatic if it is not verifiable.
>or you just
> don't like Tom & Unkah fine.
I don't appreciate Unks repeated comments about my grandmother.
I worry about a trainer who stoops to name calling.
I honestly read some of the posts to a eleven year old who is living here at
the moment, he suggested posts in a similar style, It struck me as he
reacted to unks comments that his communication style was very similar to
Unk's, now unk is over 50 <shrugs>
(quote from Daniel)
"Hello unk this is Daniel, Cameron's friend, Now, if you are so stupid you
cant see Cameron is waving the red flag in front of your face, you are
acting like a 5 year old, are you really 55? you are very very stupid unk"
(he added that he is not stupid so don't play any tricks with him)
Looking at that, he's probably actually displaying more maturity than a 50
year old with all the benefits of the 3-d mind, it's not his vocabulary that
is lacking he just has basic politeness.
(admittedly the song he advised me to sing had a few more choice words in it
and was almost as repetitive as unks postings.)
You dont comment on much, care to comment on that?
> Hopefully at some point the discussion in this group will get to useful
> discussion rather than just ego's at play.
The group seems (again see the third post in this thread) to manage to
discuss usefully without name calling or abuse.
When I gave up cigs I did get a little on the aggressive side, having made
it past that, and repeatedly referring to that time as two morons head
butting one another in public, I wonder why even then I still stayed within
the bounds of decency and quickly rectified my behaviour.
It seems typical of unk and Tom's communication.
It might be as you say an ego battle, they seem to get involved in a lot of
them. I think of it more as waving a red flag in front of a bull to see how
calm it is.
Again the motor mower manufacturer metaphor.
Mechanics have been known to have dodgy cars (because they can repair them
if they fail) why is Tom selling a non reactive technology when being
publicly embarrassingly reactive?
DBC
"Cameron" <cbrow...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:440a422f$0$1145$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Tom Vizzini
> Why is observing a trainer who claims to have wonderfull non reactive
> technology resort to name calling irrelevant to this discussion?
Because you fucking moron.....I just thought that would be fun.
Camoron just becuase someone responds to your namecalling and insults with
their own namecalling and insults is no reason to feel like a victim.
If you can't handle being calling an idtion then don't insult people. Time
and timagain you have personally insulted people on this list who disagree
with you.
For me.....I have the FREEDOM to call you a dumb ass without feeling like I
am not allowed to notice it. If by some chance you ever write a civil
post...you might get a civil reponse.
Until then asshole, you are just another whiney shit thrower.....yes that
does kinda feel good :)
Have fun
Tom
UnKa
Boy oh Boy did you get it wrong again. John stated that I am here to
drive NLP trainers away, which is fully untrue.
I am here to drive away bunk NLP trainers who promote bunk NLP, Like
DHE.
Good Old Nicky Kemp the hemp smoker being a prime example.
He has pictures of him and Richard posted on his web site, with a short
quote from Richard?? The thing Bandler does is allow anyone who has
been to one of his training to use him as promotion. I am sure Richard
Never wrote that quote, because why would Richard, God almighty, want
to attend Kemps seminar and if he was a guest speaker, I'm betting he
never stuck around to hear the rest of the presentation, which would be
congruent with is behavior patterns. So how could he say those things
he was supposed to have said on Nick's site? So is this honesty? Does
this say, integrity?
Draw your own conclusions.
Then it also has been proven that Nick Kemp had sock puppets, so he
could vent his anger without it being him, but he was caught red
handed. It this honesty? Is this integrity?
Yet, not a word is said about that, why because you seem to link
diciplines to personalities. And that would destroy NLP credability. (
like it really had much in the first place )
Do you really think I am abusive or am I just fulfilling one of your
fantasy's, do you have some kind of fetish for abuse?
Johanathan Altfield is yet another NLP trainer piece of shit.
Thinks nothing of cheating on his wife, with a phoney british accent.
He is a fat ass slob, obese son of a bitch.
Ask him if he got his certifications to teach NLP and DHE? And if he
has paid for them.
He went from a nobody to NLP trainer in only 6 months time..WOW.
Ask him if all his cob-trainers to date have been paid?
NLP is brimming full of honesty and integrity.
And your God and Mentor Richard,
Coke head
murder
alcoholic
Diabetic
Unhealthy
Wow, yet one more shinning example of the greatness of NLP and he is
one of the founders of NLP.
Haven't you noticed why all other reputable NLP trainers have nothing
to do with him any more?
If Robert Dilts was on this NG, I am sure we would be having a
delightful conversation, I don't fully agree with all his stuff but he
is sincere, honest and has nothing but integrity.
So Cameron, John, you don't annoy me or distract me from anything, I
come here as I please and post as I please, how ever I please. You are
stuck in your patterns, you know of only one way to respond, because
your ignorance filter is your primary filter, followed closely by
stupidity.
Tom, Phil and I have been down the NLP road, we know it is very limited
in its' applications, Tom has been through the practioners and Masters
NLP, so has Phil, Tom has been through the DHE and the PE seminars and
lots of Robert Dilts seminars. I have been through the practioners
course and have read just about every book on the subject of NLP ever
written before the year 2000. So we all came to the same conclusion, so
between the 3 of us we all have lots of experience in NLP and all came
to the same conclusion, it is not a system worth learning for the price
and time you need to spend learning it, and there is so much more
better out there.
So you John and Cammy can keep on ranting and raving all about your
opinions but the bottom line is, we get results, time and time again,
you guys can't say the same thing, so suffer.
You rat bastard mother fuckers, wait a sec. Time to feel guilty, ok,
done.
As I said to either Cammy or John, anytime you want to test your skills
against mine, bring it the fuck on, then we can show everyone on this
list who's got the stuff and who is full of shit. Results are what
count and the rest is just theory about results.
So go fondle your genitals while you ponder that and maybe the extra
blood circulation will help.
UnKa
>I don't appreciate Unks repeated comments about my grandmother.
>I worry about a trainer who stoops to name calling.
Do bother you, so then by your own admission you are a liar because you
said they don't bother you.
Why should you worry about what we do? Can you at all prove the 3-D
Mind doesn't work or invalid? Of course you can't because your too
fucken lazy to even read anything posted to you and when and if you do
read it, then you dismiss it because it doesn't fall into your crappy
NLP belief system.
You've added nothing to any discussion exept what you deem childish
behavior on our part, ignoring facts presented to you, ignoring posts
that demonstrate the results of the 3-D Mind, so then one must ask who
is the childish behavior really assigned to?
If you were half a man, you would have said, please don't make remarks
about my grandmother, and I would have respected that and stopped. But
just because your an overly sensensitive man bitch, don't try to force
your crappy beliefs on to me about what should and shouldn't be.
Let me tell you something that happened this weekend, I was sitting in
the bar at the hotel where the seminar was taking place and next to me
was a 59 year old Russian guy who served two tours in Afghanistan, he
was clearly dealing heavily with PTSD.
So as we talked, I could clearly see him going into state and a
reliving some bullshit.
So I asked him, do you want to get over it. Then he began this long
story about...blah blah blah...and I said Stop, do you want to get over
it, long story short, he said he it's not possible, then wanted to
continue with his story, I said stop, I am not going to sit here and
listen to a drunk tell me about shit that happened years ago because I
don't care. Now to sit and listen to him go on and on about shit that
happened years ago, and drag me into his crappy reality isn't going to
happen, been there done that.
So was it cruel the way I handled him, you may say yes and you would
have sat there because of your social conditioning and listened to him
all the while screaming inside that you want to leave.
Listening to someone like him rant about all that shit doesn't help him
or anyone listening because it is over but he chose to live in that.
Bottom line is, I don't want to hear about your problems, I want to
know if you want to get past them so you can move on, content is yours,
and I don't care.
I am results oriented, everything else is bullshit. And if you learned
nothing else from NLP, you should know that. Content is theirs and
isn't important to you, except to get only what you need to effect a
change. To sit and listen to them complain, bitch and moan isn't going
to help them or you.
So your constant bitching and moaning about our behavior isn't
important, what is important is that you need to get a sense of humor.
If you would have called my grandmother a hooker, I would have said,
and she is a good one too and charges more if she has to take her teeth
out of her mouth to give you a blowjob.
You can't hurt my feelings or direct me in any way because from where I
sit, all I see are a bunch of pansy ass overly emotional pussies.
If you want to continue to harp about our behavior, go fuck yourself
because I really don't care, neither does Tom or Phil.
You have been given more then enough information with links and books
and even access to the neuroscientist who told them the scientific
facts how the 3-D Mind works.
Did you ask questions?
I even invite John and Cameron down to Atlanta to view the video of Dr.
Ken demonstrating the visual imagines of the 3-D Mind and how it works.
But Cameron always has excuses, the cheap bastard wanted to me pay for
his plane ticket, knowing I wouldn't, so he was let off the hook, but
in fact it just goes to show what a real coward cameron really is, duh
no rocket science there.
So as far as you are concerned Cameron, your a buffoon not worth
talking too because you've to date not supplied any facts of any kind
yet like the bandler camp, just ignore facts and go on your merry way
expounding the myths about NLP.
So have at it buster, blast, write to your hearts content, condemn but
we are secure in the knowledge and can boast we get results, and your
clue less.
John on the other hand seem to have some intelligence, so I may yet
read what he posts.
Cameron
of word usage, it'll just be a bit more pointelss than usual.
>>I don't appreciate Unks repeated comments about my grandmother.
>
>>I worry about a trainer who stoops to name calling.
>
>
> Do bother you, so then by your own admission you are a liar because >you
> said they don't bother you.
Lets see, look up bother, worry and appreciate in a dictionary. enough
subtle differences there that perhaps I'me not lieing on that point?
> Why should you worry about what we do? Can you at all prove the 3-D
> Mind doesn't work or invalid? Of course you can't because your too
> fucken lazy to even read anything posted to you and when and if you do
> read it, then you dismiss it because it doesn't fall into your crappy
> NLP belief system.
Here we see the polarisation that Ton denies. Not 3-d therefore NLP therfore
bad.
Ever considered Unk that I read, understand, question, get abused then then
reject testmonials, abuse filled yahoo groups, and psudoscientific
ranmblings?
> You've added nothing to any discussion exept what you deem childish
> behavior on our part, ignoring facts presented to you, ignoring posts
> that demonstrate the results of the 3-D Mind, so then one must ask who
> is the childish behavior really assigned to?
You are right <giggle> never put a single post on this board about NLP, that
depresson thread, the time line thread, the smoking thread, all products of
my imagination.
Given your stated intention to drive NLP'ers away from alt.psychology.nlp
and the fact that the last usefull words I saw from you were in that weight
controll thread some weeks back.
Throw in some name calling references to your fathers penis size and
challanges that you issue but dont seem to be able to follow up.
<shrugs> I agree it is idiotic to pretend that we are having a discussion,
I'me made my aims clear, and thechildishness I'ld say you are winning 90/10
against me there.
Cameron
>> Why is observing a trainer who claims to have wonderfull non reactive
>> technology resort to name calling irrelevant to this discussion?
>
> Because you fucking moron.....I just thought that would be fun.
<looks at question, looks at response>
another one of those "every question I have asked" that has been answered?
> Camoron just becuase someone responds to your namecalling and insults
> >with their own namecalling and insults is no reason to feel like a
> victim.
Hmm, when was the last time I called you a moron? If I listed all the times
that you've used abuse and all the times I've dont the same would you still
think it is fair to call it my name calling against yours?
Or is it a technique that you use often with different people, irrespective
of your knowledge of them?
I dont feel like a victim, apart from the fact that you have driven away
some NLP trainers who could have had something to usefull to say, I'me not
holding up your aggresive and abusive behaviour in some hope that the net
cops will drag you away, just pointing out that you do look, at least to me
like a reactive abusive sales bot.
> If you can't handle being calling an idtion then don't insult people. Time
> and timagain you have personally insulted people on this list who disagree
> with you.
<watches the mad scramble for the moral high ground>
> For me.....I have the FREEDOM to call you a dumb ass without feeling >like
> I am not allowed to notice it. If by some chance you ever write a civil
> post...you might get a civil reponse.
Try using a SMD push to shift your concept of me from something big and
threatening and worth your time to something small insignificant and
realising you could be doing something better if you wanted to.
Then you would have the freedom to to have to call me all the lovely things
you come up with.
In the mean time, keep swearing abusing and feeling justified.
Cameron
"UnKa" <monste...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1141668789....@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> Cammy and John:
Lovely of you to use first names while hiding behind UNK and monsterbrat.
> Boy oh Boy did you get it wrong again. John stated that I am here to
> drive NLP trainers away, which is fully untrue.
Nope, I said you said you had driven away nlp trainers, Phil said I got it
so wrong, John and I independantly pointed out that it was your own claim.
> So go fondle your genitals while you ponder that and maybe the extra
> blood circulation will help.
With well reasoned debate like that, how can you go wrong?
3-d mind to rule the world...........
Tom Vizzini
>
> I dont feel like a victim, apart from the fact that you have driven away
> some NLP trainers who could have had something to usefull to say,
Ahh the cloud clears and the real agenda pops out.
Look....No NLP trainers have been driven away. They RAN away for a variety
of reasons. The biggest reason was that their claims could not stand up to
their results.
They first tried to bash the 3D Mind as well. Well not completely true. They
first tried to claim the 3D Mind WAS NLP and nothing new. Having lost those
claims they then attacked me personally. Then they attacked Kim personally.
Then they went back to claiming 3D Mind was NLP. Then they started posting
under assumed names and making stupid attacks.
Let me add that there are some really good people in the NLP world.
I'me not
> holding up your aggresive and abusive behaviour in some hope that the net
> cops will drag you away, just pointing out that you do look, at least to
me
> like a reactive abusive sales bot.
Point one...I have not been aggressive. I very passively think you are an
idiot.
>
> Try using a SMD push to shift your concept of me from something big and
> threatening and worth your time to something small insignificant and
> realising you could be doing something better if you wanted to.
I am doing what is best. Having fun trapping you into a corner where all you
have is claims of abuse. It is a great study in stupidity.
>
> Then you would have the freedom to to have to call me all the lovely
things
> you come up with.
>
> In the mean time, keep swearing abusing and feeling justified.
I feel fine.....If this is the best you have then I think I am done.
Cameron
>> some NLP trainers who could have had something to usefull to say,
>
> Ahh the cloud clears and the real agenda pops out.
<holds hands up zombie like and murmers "brains fresh brains!">
This aspect of my agenda was made very clear early in the flamewar, I
pointed out repeatedly that I think it is abhorant to enter a group and spam
with off toppic abuse. I likened it to going into a christian church and
preaching the word of Allah.
On the 3-d brain list people who introduce material that you fel is
irrelevant get banned, on the 3-d mind list they have to pay to enter, here
in the real world no one can make you shut up, but you react so agressively
and churlishly you will slavishly follow deep threads and keep out of others
faces.
> Look....No NLP trainers have been driven away. They RAN away for a variety
> of reasons. The biggest reason was that their claims could not stand up to
> their results.
>
> They first tried to bash the 3D Mind as well. Well not completely true.
> They
> first tried to claim the 3D Mind WAS NLP and nothing new. Having lost
> >those claims they then attacked me personally. Then they attacked Kim
> >personally.
Never met Kim so I cant say much on that. I would agree that a lot of what I
have been able to glean from your web site that, though 3-d mind may not be
NLP it uses a lot of the same techniques, or at least techniques by the same
name.
In my praticioner intergration questions I suggested (amongst other things)
that NLP was theft. If you haev taken NLP techniques and are selling them
off cheaper with support than I applaud that.
If you could re state the "science" behind 3-d mind I could even agree with
you there.
but from my experience of your communication, if you are complaining about
personal attacks, I just think how many of your posts have started with Cam
moron and invite you to take the log out of yoru eye before you go looking
for specks in anyone elses.
The unique claim that I have seen made for 3-d mind is that it quickly and
easily relieves reactive states.
Given your and unk's behaviour, and the 3-d brain list I dont see much
evidence to support that claim. Phil handled conflict well but no sooner
than he calmed down the fire more gas was poured on the conflict.
I really do not understand how you see your name calling and abuse reflects
well on your technology. I have the luxury, as you pointed out and I
acknowledged repeatedly of not standing for anything, but calling things how
I see them.
You are involved in selling 3-d mind, in a farily agressive way on this
list. As it's founder prehpas you would be better served in actually staying
on the high moreal ground rather than claiming it?
> Point one...I have not been aggressive. I very passively think you are an
> idiot.
Prehaps you should look at some of yoruposts before you send them?
>
>
>>
>> Try using a SMD push to shift your concept of me from something big and
>> threatening and worth your time to something small insignificant and
>> realising you could be doing something better if you wanted to.
>
> I am doing what is best. Having fun trapping you into a corner where all
> you have is claims of abuse. It is a great study in stupidity.
I feel much the same way about you, looks like we will be flaming one
another for ever, I wont loose any sales or sleep over it.
And the abusive behaviour you engage in is not a personal affront, just the
reason why I dobut your claims to be sucessfull or non reactive.
Except of course when you are abusive it is just because you enjoy it and
unk is abusive because he sees it as brutal honesty.
>> In the mean time, keep swearing abusing and feeling justified.
>
> I feel fine.....If this is the best you have then I think I am done.
dude, I'ld really have wasted thetime I spent inNLP if I didn't realise you
feel more than just fine, you think you are fighting the good fight. And
again, saying you are done is your third favourite gambit,
See you tomorow.
John
wrote:
>> OK I did a search on "Brain Structure 101 ken" and found no reference
>> to the 3DMind except for this question which I couldn't see an answer
>> for.
>
>Oh come on. I didn't suggest search for a subject "Brain Structure 101
>ken" did I? I gave you three search topics and one of them was "Brain
>Structure 101". Ken isn't about to put his own name in a post subject
>randomly is he?
You are right you didn't.
And that is precisely the problem with the approach you all seem to be
suggesting whereby we go and find the proof for ourselves when we
don't know where to look. Why give us search keywords to plug in a
then say here is some stuff on the subject and here is some more
stuff. It is a situation whereby the result can never be confirmed.
Lets assume for a moment that there was no basis in science for the 3D
mind, that is was simply a set of useful and effective processes
adapted from other sources by Tom. Then every time we fail to find the
proof we care called lazy and told to look harder. Hardly a robust way
of showing whether something is correct or not is it?
I am beginning to wonder if we are talking at cross purposes here
especially when Tom comes up with comments like -
"That is because in all the time I have been explaining this....You
were not looking for linkage"
What else would it be if you are attempting to prove that a
psychological process is based in science?
I put Kens name on the string because I was under the impression that
he was your scientific expert on the 3D Brain that could confirm the
basis of the 3D Mind for you. I then looked for references to the 3D
Mind in his posts. There was little or none. If that is wrong then so
be it, I am sure you will put me right. However the only references I
have seen are comments from him like "it would interesting to explore
this further". Hardly support form the scientific community is it.
>>And can ya give any more specifics about how the prefrontal cortex is
>> involved in 3D Mind? :)" from someone called Dave Foris
>
>Dave Foris is one of the best 3D Mind students in the world. He
>recently graduated with a psychology degree. From what I remember he
>was at the New York seminar where Dr Ken gave a 3 hour presentation on
>the 3D Brain model.
Did he mention 3D Mind at in that seminar? If so can we have access to
his notes please?
>What I do know for sure is that Dave doesn't have
>a problem with the 3D Brain model. He researched it against his
>training and asked good questions like the one you've found.
And what were the answers please (no references to group again I hope
- just post the answer thats all?
I have now problem with the 3D Brain model. I presume better qualified
minds than mine would have already said if it were a load of poo or
not.
>Now if you read the archive you'll see that Ken answers his questions
>in another thread and if you actually refer to the subjects I gave you
>to you're going to get a bunch of related information and more.
Threads on Yahoo groups are not easy to follow since there is no
structure. Can you give me the message number please and I will go
look. Or is it necessary that I go and find it for myself.
Alternatively you could cut the relevant part and post it on this
group or am I missing something here?
I am not looking for a "bunch of relevant information" just some
simple logical steps that anyone here can follow or then look deeper
elsewhere if they need to.
>> I thought you said you were done with marketing the effectiveness of
>> the 3D Mind here.
>
>Now you're putting words in my mouth. I was fine until Cameron started
>to make silly claims just because he has a pet peeve with Tom and
>Unkah.
I was referring to your desire to continue the discussion around the
results of the product which is pure marketing since we cannot then
get involved in disusing how the product works which does then provide
fruitful threads.
> I simply asked that he separate his feelings towards Unkah and
>Tom from claims about the effectiveness.
A far as I can see Cameron, like me has never queried the
effectiveness of the product other than recently making a
circumstantial link to the behaviour of its owner and some of his
cohorts in this group which is highly relevant to the discussion.
--
John