State Of The Art Sales Training Invitation (delete if not interested)
Muskateer
Hey All,
Most of us realize acquiring razor edge persuasion skills that will faithfully
and elegantly propel you to your outcome in most persuasion situations requires
an investment of time, money and practice.
Perhaps you'll consider joining me at Michael Hall's META SELLING Workshop in
Charlotte, NC, August 20-22. Friday through Sunday 9am - 5pm
Going Higher
To MODEL the Very Structure of Excellence In Selling
An Advanced Sales Workshop
For Improving Selling Performance & Competence
Using the Modeling/Engineering Tools of
NLP & Meta-States
"If you want to predict the next Sales Representative of the Year,
the next star regional manager,
the next national account executive,
find out which salespeople are analyzing their own Methodology,
which ones are constantly reassessing sales strategy and tactics,
which ones are looking for reliable, repeatable methods
to improve their competitive edge.
An attribute to inner process
as well as to external change
is fundamental to today's (and tomorrow's)
sales leaders."
Stephen Heiman, The New Strategic Selling (1998)
Some of you want to learn persuasion skills simply because it's easier and more
fun to get your outcome with others in social situations Others have a lot more
at stake, because you earn your full-time living in 100% commission sales as do
I.
Perhaps you've noticed as I have over the years, say the last 15, the public
has become much more street wise about the sales (manipulation) process, has
access to much more information therefore decreasing their need for our
expertise, has more vendor choices, takes longer to make decisions (because
they have more options to weigh which leads to choice confusion) and resists
most "Power Closing" techniques?
We are busted! Thanks to the Internet, CNN, MSNBC, Telemarketer's ringing the
public's phones off the hook saying the SAME THING, "Insider Secrets" type
books/shows and the like, the public is well schooled about the manipulation
tricks we have been playing on them over the last 50 years...including some NLP
tricks.
Perhaps it's time for some new, more empowered persuasion options?
SOME OF WHAT YOU WILL GET—
An Elegant & Humane Model for Selling that relies not on pressure, pushing,
controlling, but coaching, consulting, and facilitating a buyer using the
buyers style & values so that you can sell with passion and compassion.
A Clear Sense of The Buying Process (its steps, stages, and loops) as well as a
clear model of The Selling Process to match the buyers style.
Skills for Managing the Selling Processes (Meta-Selling) with precision & power
(meta-communicating, meta-questioning, setting frames, coaching
decision-making, strategical thinking skills, etc.).
State Management Skills for handling your own Selling States to operate from an
optimal resourceful state so that you perform "at your best." How to access
your Ferocious Selling/Coaching State, How to bring states of joy, curiosity,
exploration, respect, fun, etc., to your selling, How to stay motivated and
proactive.
Coaching Skills to effectively elicit resourceful states in a buyer that
thereby empower him or her in buying smart by seeing and appreciating value.
Empowerment Beliefs, insights, values, principles, etc., for engineering your
own personal states of excellence keeping you motivated, ferocious, playful,
able to see opportunities, etc.
The Magic of Reframing, Pre-framing & Outframing to eliminate objections in the
first place, and the magic of deframing and outframing for new elegance and
power over problems and resistance's.
Persuasion Skills through frame-setting and frame-busting. When you learn to
operate at the frame level, you can set frames that enable yourself and others
to operate at one’s best!
A Meta Selling Resource Manual (121 pages), including some Powerful Meta State
Patterns not in print anywhere else.
I've had the pleasure of communicating with Michael over the last 15 or so
months on a multitude of NLP/META STATES subjects as well as owning several of
his books. He assures me this training is NOTHING like anything currently
offered in the NLP Universe. Including Persuasion Engineering by Richard
Bandler/John LaValle and Maximum Persuasion by Kendrick Cleveland. As I
understand it from a source I consider very factual, Kendrick thinks highly
enough of Michael's Meta State Model that he has adopted some pieces of it into
his Influential Spinning Sales Model due out shortly. Michael considers this a
compliment.
Michael asserts this model is about elegant partnering, rather than elegant
manipulation to achieve mutual outcomes. This leads to more and larger sales,
shorter sales cycle with less buyer's remorse and less emotional stress on the
sales rep.
Investment? The Meta Selling Workshop last month in Houston, TX was $450. This
workshop is only $169 for the entire three full day weekend! In my view this is
one of the TOP TRAINING BARGAINS this year. Why such a reasonable price?
Michael Hall like many other NLP Trainers/Presenters, charges his fee to
present the workshop and the local workshop promoter can charge whatever they
want over their expenses to the public. This is an EARLY BIRD SPECIAL rate,
however. Good only until July 31st. Afterward, the bargain rate is $199.
Sam Michael's, the promoter is a successful entrepreneur with a group of sales
reps under him. He's looking at the big picture. His vision is to make the
training available to as many of his reps and others as possible. He'll make
more than enough money in overrides long term from his reps powered up sales
skills, attitudes, actions and RESULTS!.
Meta-States® Developer--
L. Michael Hall, Ph.D., NLP Master Practitioner, NLP Trainer, received his
original training and certification under Richard Bandler. Richard asked
Michael to write the notes to his master practitioner track and trainers
training track, now in books: The Spirit of NLP, Becoming A Ferocious
Presenter. Michael also transcribed and edited other books for Richard,
including working on Time for a Change.
As a prolific author, Michael has teamed up with Dr. Bodenhamer and co-author:
Time-Lining, Figuring Out People, Mind-Lines, Patterns for Renewing the Mind,
etc.
Michael has also written sixteen books that include three Best Sellers in
Europe:
NLP: Going Meta--Advance Modeling Using Meta-Levels, The Secrets of Magic, How
to Do What When (with Barbara Belnap), etc. In 1997, Michael initiated The
Meta-States Journal and also began traveling full time to provide Meta-State
training internationally.
Quoting Michael from one of his many articles:
In this calendar year (1999), we plan to bring out more pieces to highlight and
distinguish Neuro-Semantics from NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) and GS
(General Semantics). The most radical and revolutionary of these will be the
work regarding the so-called "submodality" model. We’ve entitled it,
Meta-Stating Genius: Distinctions of Excellence. It is scheduled for
publication in August, 1999.
Testimonials? Yep. Here's just one of many:
With all the rejection involved in sales, state management stands as one of the
driving deciding factors between attaining sales and professional success and
being forced to find a new line of endeavor. Many managers in an attempt to
control their sales force's state of mind reduce themselves to mere
"cheerleaders". These managers speak of "keeping positive attitudes" and other
fluffy platitudes, but offer no or weak techniques to their salespeople to
accomplish them.
In my opinion, the only way to have a driven, self-propelling sales force is to
install new, effective, reproducible, hands-on techniques to deal with
rejection and the salesperson's overall state of mind. It has been said in
countless books "ATTITUDE IS EVERYTHING". I feel Dr. L Michael Hall in his
Selling Excellence Training has effectively created the ultimate sales
techniques and strategies. He has creatively combined effective techniques for
state management, along with incredibly efficient and subtle hands-on
techniques to "get inside your customer's mind" and "sell the way the customer
likes to buy". The material presented in Dr. Hall's workbook alone could be
considered one of the most comprehensive sales manuals I have ever seen. Anyone
who desires to control their own state and LIVE THE CURIOUS, PLAYFUL, POSITIVE
ATTITUDE others talk about and who desires to have the ability to install that
attitude in others and desires the ability to have your customers BUY from you
instead of you selling them, I RECOMMEND SIGNING UP IMMEDIATELY for the next
"SELLING EXCELLENCE" training.
HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!!
Christopher Tomasulo, CFO
Michael Lester, General Manager
Need More? Hmmmmmm.
As a BONUS, on day three Michael will spend the entire day presenting his
unique twist on an NLP skill set that is talked about a lot in NLP circles, but
little understood by most. Used elegantly by fewer still.
Michael's partner, Dr. Bob Bodenhamer uses this skill set daily in his therapy
practice with massive results. It works just as well in sales.
In order to track interest from this list, I'm asking you contact me at:
musk...@aol.com
I'll forward your email address/fax number to Sam. He'll get back to you
directly.
Hope to meet a few of you there.
Rob Blake
musk...@aol.com
Jerome Kajumba
I liked your post. Long time since I've heard from thee, I to will be
joining you at the training. I will be staying at the Hyatt Park, ( I
guess this job is good for something ) maybe we can get together for
drinks :]]
Jerome S. Kajumba
Ross Jeffries
musk...@aol.com (Muskateer) wrote:
> Hey All,
> Most of us realize acquiring razor edge persuasion skills that will faithfully
> and elegantly propel you to your outcome in most persuasion situations
requires
> an investment of time, money and practice.
>
> (SNIPPAGE)
>
> I've had the pleasure of communicating with Michael over the last 15 or so
> months on a multitude of NLP/META STATES subjects as well as owning several of
> his books. He assures me this training is NOTHING like anything currently
> offered in the NLP Universe. Including Persuasion Engineering by Richard
> Bandler/John LaValle and Maximum Persuasion by Kendrick Cleveland. As I
> understand it from a source I consider very factual, Kendrick thinks highly
> enough of Michael's Meta State Model that he has adopted some pieces of
it into
> his Influential Spinning Sales Model due out shortly. Michael considers this a
> compliment.
Uh, excuse me, but all of the people you mention above have ACTUAL
HANDS-ON SALES EXPERIENCE!
When it comes to this PARTICULIAR subject, you're better off going to
Bandler/Lavalle, or Mr. Cleveland for that matter, IMHO.
P.S. There is no "d" in Mr. Cleveland's first name......
--
Get Laid NOW!
Ask me how!
http://www.seduction.com
Free Newsletters and Real Audio files!
Tom Vizzini
Hi Folks,
Well I guess we have another rip-off by Michael Hall.
I find it hard to imagine a state of the art training from someone
who, to my knowledge, has never been in sales.
I would love to actually read something here on this
group by Hall rather than one ad after another by his flunkies.
One word of warning to those who are enamored by Hall's
books. I have talk to 2 people in the last week that did not
last a day and a half at his seminars. They walked out.
Both of them liked his material in print but said that the seminar
was an awful experience. Hall simply does not do well in front of
a room. One said that you might as well hire someone to read his books
to you out loud and you would have the same experience.
My opinion is clear. I think Hall has simply renamed NLP
and switched some things around to make it more confusing. I have
yet to have the challenge of stating anything new that is contained
in Hall's books, answered by any of his groupies.
The fact that he does not seem to have the balls to even post
for himself only enhances my doubts about him.
Buyer Beware!
Tom
Ross Jeffries wrote:
>
> Uh, excuse me, but all of the people you mention above have ACTUAL
> HANDS-ON SALES EXPERIENCE!
>
>
>
> When it comes to this PARTICULIAR subject, you're better off going to
> Bandler/Lavalle, or Mr. Cleveland for that matter, IMHO.
>
> P.S. There is no "d" in Mr. Cleveland's first name......
>
> --
> Get Laid NOW!
> Ask me how!
> http://www.seduction.com
> Free Newsletters and Real Audio files!
--
Tom Vizzini
Http://www.Essential-Skills.com
10 CD Essential Skills seminar set now available
Elvis Keith Lester
ja...@email.com
In article <7nv2kd$3k9$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
"Elvis Keith Lester" <lear...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> What a butthead!
So, in other words, you have nothing to offer in the way of trying to
refute the issues that Tom has raised about Hall's background and
seminar quality, so your training by Hall has led you to believe that
the best way to handle Tom's post was this response.
How much do I have to spend to get this kind of quality training????
Jake
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Ross Jeffries
<Tviz...@ga.prestige.net> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> Well I guess we have another rip-off by Michael Hall.
>
> My opinion is clear. I think Hall has simply renamed NLP
> and switched some things around to make it more confusing. I have
> yet to have the challenge of stating anything new that is contained
> in Hall's books, answered by any of his groupies.
Tom,
I'm not a Hall groupie and I LOVE his books. I just don't think he has
much right to teach a sales seminar if he's never sold anything in his
life. Then again, maybe he has, in which case I apologize to the guy.
And I have also heard the same things about him as a presenter as you
mention in your post, but no one pleases EVERYONE.
>
> The fact that he does not seem to have the balls to even post
> for himself only enhances my doubts about him.
Maybe he wants to avoid flame wars.
>
> Buyer Beware!
>
> Tom
>
>
That's what Tabby sez too!
Advanced
Russ Alderman
Elvis Keith Lester <lear...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:7nv2kd$3k9$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net...
> What a butthead!
> Elvis
>
> Tom Vizzini wrote in message <37A30AF9...@ga.prestige.net>...
> >
> >Hi Folks,
> >
> > Well I guess we have another rip-off by Michael Hall.
> >I find it hard to imagine a state of the art training from someone
> >who, to my knowledge, has never been in sales.
> >
> > I would love to actually read something here on this
> >group by Hall rather than one ad after another by his flunkies.
> >
> > One word of warning to those who are enamored by Hall's
> >books. I have talk to 2 people in the last week that did not
> >last a day and a half at his seminars. They walked out.
> >
> > Both of them liked his material in print but said that the seminar
> >was an awful experience. Hall simply does not do well in front of
> >a room. One said that you might as well hire someone to read his books
> >to you out loud and you would have the same experience.
> >
> > My opinion is clear. I think Hall has simply renamed NLP
> >and switched some things around to make it more confusing. I have
> >yet to have the challenge of stating anything new that is contained
> >in Hall's books, answered by any of his groupies.
> >
> > The fact that he does not seem to have the balls to even post
> >for himself only enhances my doubts about him.
> >
> >Buyer Beware!
> >
> >Tom
> >
> >
> >Ross Jeffries wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Uh, excuse me, but all of the people you mention above have ACTUAL
> >> HANDS-ON SALES EXPERIENCE!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> When it comes to this PARTICULIAR subject, you're better off going to
> >> Bandler/Lavalle, or Mr. Cleveland for that matter, IMHO.
> >>
> >> P.S. There is no "d" in Mr. Cleveland's first name......
> >>
> >> --
> >> Get Laid NOW!
> >> Ask me how!
> >> http://www.seduction.com
> >> Free Newsletters and Real Audio files!
> >
Tom Vizzini
Ross Jeffries wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I'm not a Hall groupie and I LOVE his books. I just don't think he has
> much right to teach a sales seminar if he's never sold anything in his
> life. Then again, maybe he has, in which case I apologize to the guy.
As we have found out from Elvis, Hall has never sold anything but
seminars and books. He does not even sell his own training. All we get
the hear from is his spokesman. I truly wish Hall would show some of
his selling expertise publicly.
>
> And I have also heard the same things about him as a presenter as you
> mention in your post, but no one pleases EVERYONE.
>
> >
> > The fact that he does not seem to have the balls to even post
> > for himself only enhances my doubts about him.
>
> Maybe he wants to avoid flame wars.
The other option is that he is a paper Tiger.
Ross, I wonder how different it would be if Hall had decided to do
seminar called Rapid Seduction. With his patented Suck Job pattern or
is Significant Other Eliminating pattern.
I imagine you would feel much differently about the subject.
Just a thought,
Tom
Ross Jeffries
<Tviz...@ga.prestige.net> wrote:
> Hi Ross
>
> Ross Jeffries wrote:
>
> > Tom,
> >
> > I'm not a Hall groupie and I LOVE his books. I just don't think he has
> > much right to teach a sales seminar if he's never sold anything in his
> > life. Then again, maybe he has, in which case I apologize to the guy.
>
> As we have found out from Elvis, Hall has never sold anything but
> seminars and books. He does not even sell his own training. All we get
> the hear from is his spokesman. I truly wish Hall would show some of
> his selling expertise publicly.\
That WOULD go a long way to give him some needed credibility on THIS
particuliar issue.
.
>
> Ross, I wonder how different it would be if Hall had decided to do
> seminar called Rapid Seduction. With his patented Suck Job pattern or
> is Significant Other Eliminating pattern.
Ha ha ha! I'd reward him with a fate worse than death...I'd...
SIC THAT TRADEMARK/COPYRIGHT LAWYER ON HIM THAT EVEN
KIMMY IS AFRAID OF!
You know the one I mean.......
BigJiim
1. The ability to build and enter the proper altered state where you
believe that ANYTHING can be possible.
Hello? Hello? Are you wearing polyester pants and a plaid shirt when
you enter this "altered" state?
2. The ability to visualize vividly.
Hello? Hello? Have you visualize vividly shaving off that dweeby goatee
and losing the earring and taking a bath and getting a haircut?
Imagaine yourself without BO! Imagine you don't bite your fingernails
to the quick a la WUSS.
3. The ability to hallucinate kinesthetically. This is the sense of
touch. As I said in a prevous newsletter, this sense should be
developed first.
Hello? Hello? You mean while you are washing your putz real fast in the
shower that you can feel her sucking the Godiva chocolates right out of
your belowme hey_PENIS?
4. The ability to manage and control posture/micromovements of the
body.
Hello? Hello? Do you mean that dweebs have to stand up straight and
hold their rounded shoulders back (unlike WUSS who looks like a typical
guilty Jew)? Do you mean they have to put both feet flat on the floor
and act like a Man? Yes! That is very important.
Hey sandworm`...rich taught you most of this. care to come up with anything
yourself?
i don't fuckin doubt your ability that you did think of much this yourself was
it planted yourself or buy somebody else?
Youre on yor own as rich has taught us. my question is hOW far can you take us?
sdpeed suduction is prehistoric as i'm sure you know.
yore one of my favorites take caRe
big jiim
BigJiim
> big jiim
Ross is holding out on us. His techniques and ideas are
FAR more reaching than most of us imagine. I want you Ross
to stop letting us believe in what you once was and start
directing us into what you are now. Teach us the new material.
Give us the new fish.
Why do you hold back for us at this moment?
Stupid isn't it?...........
guessing
b.
BigJiim
Ross wrote about Micheal Hall,
> That WOULD go a long way to give him some needed credibility on THIS
>particuliar issue.
>
Care to describe what credibility he needs in what issues
in detail? This is not meant as an argument fight or as a
black/white issue. I wonder what others have to say on
the subject.
just curious......
Elvis Keith Lester
People are now just freely giving their feedback to the Neuro-Semantics
eGroup List.
This is a post from that list (posted with permission).
=============
STARTS HERE:
Although I agree somewhat that trainers and writers should "walk their
talk", I personally don't think that this makes a great trainer or a great
writer. I have found many people, in many walks of life that give truly
wonderful advice and coaching and provide wonderful results to the people
they offer it to, while at the same time having problems in their own life.
Most of the time a baseball hitting coach cannot hit the ball even a
fraction as well as a hitter. But, the coach can observe and point out any
flaws in the players stance, swing and focus. I don't know one professional
athlete that doesn't have a coach and with few exceptions I don't know many
coaches that can do what the athlete can do.
That aside. I consider Michael Hall the greatest self-improvement "coach"
in the industry today. I personally paid for him to fly from Colorado to
train myself and several friends and co workers for two days in Fort
Lauderdale. I have never done that with any other trainer. He has produced
more well written and thouroughly researched material than any other writer
on the NLP scene and he continuously improves and updates his work. More
than that, what he writes works (that applies to Bob Bodenhammer as well).
Yes, perfect marriages, lots of wealth, and such are great. Look at Tony
Robbins. He made millions selling self improvement. Now he can say he made
millions and sell more stuff. SO WHAT! The evidence of a great coach comes
from the results they can provide and the improvements they can inspire from
you. READ SOME OF MICHAEL HALL'S BOOKS. APPLY THEM. THEN ASK SOME
QUESTIONS.
Christopher Tomasulo, FLORIDA
Tom Vizzini wrote in message <37A480E9...@ga.prestige.net>...
>Hi Ross
>
>Ross Jeffries wrote:
>
>> Tom,
>>
>> I'm not a Hall groupie and I LOVE his books. I just don't think he has
>> much right to teach a sales seminar if he's never sold anything in his
>> life. Then again, maybe he has, in which case I apologize to the guy.
>
>As we have found out from Elvis, Hall has never sold anything but
>seminars and books. He does not even sell his own training. All we get
>the hear from is his spokesman. I truly wish Hall would show some of
>his selling expertise publicly.
>
>
>>
>> And I have also heard the same things about him as a presenter as you
>> mention in your post, but no one pleases EVERYONE.
>>
>> >
>> > The fact that he does not seem to have the balls to even post
>> > for himself only enhances my doubts about him.
>>
>> Maybe he wants to avoid flame wars.
>
>The other option is that he is a paper Tiger.
>
>Ross, I wonder how different it would be if Hall had decided to do
>seminar called Rapid Seduction. With his patented Suck Job pattern or
>is Significant Other Eliminating pattern.
>
Tom Vizzini
BigJiim wrote:
>
>
> Tom,
>
> Micheal posts quite often through the Neuro-Semantics newsgroup
> as does his partner Bob. I'm sure Elvis has the group address
> if you need.
That is fine but he advertises here. If he does not want
to post then I think he should also cease his ads. I realize that the
Neuro-semantics group is also a Hall friendly group. I would like to see
him make his case in this forum.
Elvis Keith Lester
And if he has achieved the state of " All Knowingness " as he was attempting
to (as recognized by anyone who was there) Meta-States would have produced
quite a miracle.
E
Tom Vizzini wrote in message <37A622E1...@ga.prestige.net>...
>Hi Elvis,
>
> I guess for balance I will post an email that I received the other day.
>I will not include the name of the author but I did think he had great
>insight.
>
>...............
>
>
>Hi Tom,
>
>I also attended Michael Hall's Tampa deal last Sept. His books are
>great,
>in front of a group, however, he models Pee Wee Herman. And he just
>reads
>from the print and takes no feedback "if it takes us off the subject."
>When
>the subject is as boring as he makes it, you want to go off to anywhere
>else.
>
>Elvis Keith Lester has even less personality.
>
>................
>
> This guy must be a big fan!!! LOL! You really impressed him Elvis LOL!
>
> Hey if you want someone to read to you then I guess Hall is you man.
>
> Well believe it or not, this is not something I made up. It is a real
>email. No I will not give the persons name under any circumstances. Like
>me or not I have never lied on this group.
>
>
>
>Elvis Keith Lester wrote:
>>
>> Yet another report of the benefits of the Meta-States trainings.
>> People are now just freely giving their feedback to the Neuro-Semantics
>> eGroup List.
>> This is a post from that list (posted with permission).
>
>
> I would love to have one of these people post here to give us there
>experiences. Besides Elvis, It is an E-group full of E-groupies. What
>else would they say.
>
>
> One more time....Where is MICHAEL HALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would love to
>interview him instead of him hiding behind you Elvis. I have a lot of
>questions that I would love to have answered. If I am wrong about him I
>will publicly apologize.
>
>
>
>Waiting.....
Tom Vizzini
BigJiim
>interview him instead of him hiding behind you Elvis. I have a lot of
>questions that I would love to have answered. If I am wrong about him I
>will publicly apologize.
>
>
>
>Waiting.....
>
>Tom
>
>
>
>--
>Tom Vizzini
>Http://www.Essential-Skills.com
Tom Vizzini
Elvis Keith Lester wrote:
>
> No doubt I know who this person is.
>
> And if he has achieved the state of " All Knowingness " as he was attempting
> to (as recognized by anyone who was there) Meta-States would have produced
> quite a miracle.
> E
>
You know you must be right. It is always the students fault when
that don't "get it" . How dare they expect to actually know what is
being taught. It must be that they expect to understand what they paid
to learn!
Stupid students. How could they possibly expect that???
You are right Elvis. No one should expect to leave any seminar with the
understanding of the subject. That is too much of an expectation! Maybe
they should just send the check and stay home!!!
Tom
--
Tom Vizzini
Http://www.Essential-Skills.com
Elvis Keith Lester
filters you have running you big bad wolf. I am not in the least surprised
at your behavior. You must have nothing else better to do with your time.
I stand by my original post on this string.
You may try to offend students to make your point. That would in your mind
give you a one up position which you must need to support your
overwhelmingly big head. Can't you figure out a better approach than the
one you seem to default to.
You are right Tom. This material is way too complex for you.
Unfortunately, speaking to you like this may make sense but it quite
unbecoming. BTW, What is your day job?
E
Tom Vizzini
--
Kurt Arbuckle
:
: Ross Jeffries wrote:
: >
: > And I have also heard the same things about him as a presenter as you
: > mention in your post, but no one pleases EVERYONE.
I have never been to a Hall training. As he comes to Houston quite often
I did consider it. What I do before I go to anyone's training is I get
videos (or at least audios) of them. I got Hall's videos of one of his
meta states trainings. I have to agree with Tom (although it pains me
to agree with such a blowhard) that Hall is not Mr. Presenter 1999.
Neither is Dilts, in case no one has noticed.
As for who will be pleased and who won't be pleased with the content
of Hall's work, extrapolating from personality research, 20% of the
population will really like it. 80% will think it rather too abstract
(what Tom in his brilliance can't distinguish from "complex"). Many
in that 80% will still think it has value (as does Ross for example).
Tom's pompus dislike for Hall's work is a reflection of what appears to be
a rather extreme example of the hedonic personality. It is really amazing
to read Tom's posts. I am one of those people who thinks that personality
typing should be thought of like v/k/a; no one is really just one or the
other. But Tom is a classic stereotype.
Which means Tom wants to sound good, but has very little to actually
say. He wants to be thought of as good at what he does, and he is
a self promoter. He believes in doing whatever is in his best interests
at the moment, with little regard for what anyone else thinks. Most
importantly, he wonders why anyone else would disagree with him on any
of those ideas.
Tom should appeal to that 80% with his concrete orientation, but his extreme
self centeredness will turn half those people off. Tom's such an extreme
case, that he is too inflexible to see he is pissing off half his potential
customers. He really can't see any other way than his.
So Ross, you know him. How close did I come? He. He.
: > >
: > > The fact that he does not seem to have the balls to even post
: > > for himself only enhances my doubts about him.
: >
: > Maybe he wants to avoid flame wars.
:
: The other option is that he is a paper Tiger.
Classic "Tom." To Tom there are only two options. The possibility
that Hall doesn't care to talk to a blowhard idiot, the possibility
that Hall is too busy, the possibility that Hall gives the people on
this newsgroup credit for being able to judge for themselves, and the
infinite number of other possibilities never occur to Tom.
So I may never go to Hall's training, because he is not very entertaining.
I will never go to one of Tom's trainings, because his own perspective is
so limited that I see no hope that he could ever broaden mine. I don't
go to seminars to learn the stuff that feels right going in. I go to stretch
and fail and experiment and learn. If the trainer is boring, I may or may
not be able to add in the enthusiasm to get something out of the course. I
certainly did that many times to in my formal education so that I would
not fall victim to not getting anything out of all that time.
But if someone has nothing to offer other than their own limited inflexible
view of the world, that "real world" of anchoring waitresses to salt shakers,
there's nothing that can be done. Better to stay home.
As EKL said in another post, what's your day job, Tom, and how do you use
your basic skills in it? I bet you won't answer that question. I bet
you will ignore it or make some snide remark instead of answering it.
I bet I'll remind you if you do. You say Hall has no sales experience.
What's your experience? Are we supposed to think that boating back and
forth on a lake getting your phone wet is "experience?"
Kurt
Elvis Keith Lester
E
Tom Vizzini wrote in message <37A7B40B...@ga.prestige.net>...
Elvis Keith Lester
Kurt I may need to consult with you on a few legal matters.
I like the way you think.
E
Kurt Arbuckle wrote in message ...
Ross Jeffries
<D76DAE6B2EA3E08B.65A82892...@lp.airnews.net>,
k...@neosoft.com (Kurt Arbuckle) wrote:
> So Ross, you know him. How close did I come? He. He.
Not too close. I DO agree that Tom at times can be stubborn and
inflexible and I have, in the past, had my own conflicts with him over
that. But I'm working on him and he's getting better. The rest of what
you said is a load of crap.
>
>
> Classic "Tom." To Tom there are only two options. The possibility
> that Hall doesn't care to talk to a blowhard idiot, the possibility
> that Hall is too busy, the possibility that Hall gives the people on
> this newsgroup credit for being able to judge for themselves, and the
> infinite number of other possibilities never occur to Tom.
I think Tom has a valid point. The man himself ought to at least make a
post or two in his own defense and then disappear. Not saying ANYTHING
doesn't help, but that is MY opinion.
>
> But if someone has nothing to offer other than their own limited inflexible
> view of the world, that "real world" of anchoring waitresses to salt shakers,
> there's nothing that can be done. Better to stay home.
Uh, Kurt..I think Tom's point was about most trainings, wherein folks go,
practice in the seminar room, and then NEVER APPLY IT IN THE REAL WORLD.
>
> As EKL said in another post, what's your day job, Tom, and how do you use
> your basic skills in it? I bet you won't answer that question. I bet
> you will ignore it or make some snide remark instead of answering it.
> I bet I'll remind you if you do. You say Hall has no sales experience.
> What's your experience? Are we supposed to think that boating back and
> forth on a lake getting your phone wet is "experience?"
The boating stuff is metaphoric..but also lots of fun! Just watch Kimmy
do those 360's at 50 mph!
>
> Kurt
Crackpot
Kurt Arbuckle wrote:
>I will never go to one of Tom's trainings, because his own perspective is
>so limited that I see no hope that he could ever broaden mine.
>I don't
>go to seminars to learn the stuff that feels right going in. I go to stretch
>and fail and experiment and learn.
Not to knit-pick, but Tom's doesn't feel right going in, does it? Maybe
you'll try to stretch to see if his narrow perspective could broaden you
and then you'll fail and learn?
--
. . . . . . . . ... . . . . . .
"Disco! Disco! Disco! | Nyla Tenna V.
I'm staring out the window." | shi...@gweep.net
Jessekess
sayes he sold stuff, how do you know he did. I think RB is great for the
record but his expertese is on how the brain works. Neither John nor Richard
ever answer anything on this group. Also just cause two people happen to think
Micheal is boring is their opinon. YOU CAN"T PLEASE EVERBODY! NOTE, Robert
Dilts is boring as hell but his stuff is excellent he is a genius, remember he
is the one who made sleight of mouth explicit, Richard taught it implicitly
and if Dilts wasn't around it wouldn't be as understood as it is. As for
creating something new Hall even says in his books that he is not creating
something new but using a new metaphor and a easier way of sorting the
concepts. Read the books agian and you'll find that he is trying to make NLP
systematic and extend the concepts. . To extend what Robert Dilts did. That
is give it an understandable framework. The NLP model is great up to a point
and then it doesn't explain things Not just a grab bag of tools. He also is
trying to give it some credibility outside the community(note I don't say field
cause its not one). P.S. Tom this is not a slam I think your a good teacher
too. I love your stuff, just don't agree here.
Peace!
Jesse
Tom Vizzini
LOL!!! So....what is your point??? :) Gee you are really scaring me!
Elvis Keith Lester wrote:
>
> It is a result of your arrogance. Want more. Keep giving it.
> E
>
> Tom Vizzini wrote in message <37A7B40B...@ga.prestige.net>...
> > God, is this the result of Meta States training?
> >
Tom Vizzini
Nice to see I am still getting to you :)
Kurt Arbuckle wrote:
I have to agree with Tom (although it pains me
> to agree with such a blowhard) that Hall is not Mr. Presenter 1999.
Stop while I recover from the shock !
> Which means Tom wants to sound good, but has very little to actually
> say. He wants to be thought of as good at what he does, and he is
> a self promoter.
Kurt if all I wanted to do was sound good I would surely not
post half the things I write. I could kiss ass and hug a tree but it
is not my style. I would say that keeping my mouth shut would definately
help my business. I would just be a politically correct butt kisser.
He believes in doing whatever is in his best interests
> at the moment, with little regard for what anyone else thinks.
That is true. I write my opinion. My opinion is not dictated by
what anyone else thinks. If you only write other people opinions
then I suggest you think for yourself :)
>
> Tom should appeal to that 80% with his concrete orientation, but his extreme
> self centeredness will turn half those people off. Tom's such an extreme
> case, that he is too inflexible to see he is pissing off half his potential
> customers. He really can't see any other way than his.
This is true. I do not really care who I piss off. I do not think it is
inflexibility. I prefer the word independence. I do not want 80% of
those who read here. Most of them I would prefer stay home. I want the
20% to 30% that want to learn how to really use NLP in their lives
instead of just talking about it.
>
> So I may never go to Hall's training, because he is not very entertaining.
> I will never go to one of Tom's trainings, because his own perspective is
> so limited that I see no hope that he could ever broaden mine.
Don't worry you would never be allowed to attend.
I want smart people:)
> But if someone has nothing to offer other than their own limited inflexible
> view of the world, that "real world" of anchoring waitresses to salt shakers,
> there's nothing that can be done. Better to stay home.
If that is all you can see from the "example " of anchoring then
I suggest that you are rather limited. If I can anchor to salt shakers,
what else could I anchor to? Product, business cards, my voice, my
state,
my company and at least a few other things. I think if you can anchor
someone who is running hecticly around serving food then what would you
be able to do in a business setting??? Gee, if you added rapport to that
and tonality and embedded commands how powerful could your communication
get??? OH! Sorry I was
just supposed to be talking about waitresses.
How about getting a discount at a hotel????????
At our last seminar there was a misunderstanding with one of the
students. He was going to be kicked from his room a day early and did
not want to pay another 140.00 for another night because he was on a
tight budget.
He was arguing with the front desk girl and getting nowhere. So I
stepped in. First I got rapport with her. Next I anchored confusion.
Next I anchored
the feeling os being lost in a strange town and how that would feel. I
next anchor the good feelings of helping out someone in need. I then
attached all these anchors to the student. The next thing you know she
is offering him the room for 70 dollars!!! The is half off. The cheapest
room he could have hoped for in Buckhead is over a 100.00 night. NO!
there is no other application to anchoring at all....LOL!
>
> As EKL said in another post, what's your day job, Tom, and how do you use
> your basic skills in it? I bet you won't answer that question. I bet
> you will ignore it or make some snide remark instead of answering it.
> I bet I'll remind you if you do.
I bet you lose :)
Sure you have asked twice and if you are really curious I will tell
you. Stock broker for 3 years, real-estate agent for 4 years. I own a
carpet business that has been successful for 10 years. Yes I have to
sell in that business. I even install the carpet sometimes ( I get a
little greedy from time to time). I buy and sell investment property for
the last 6 years. I negotiate for others who are doing real-estate
investments. I buy foreclosures and remodel them. I help others do it
also. BTW Anchoring at a foreclosure auction is VERY profitable. :)
Notice that I do not include seminars and Cds as selling. There is
little face to face contact or even voice to voice. I do not consider
that selling.
I must say that I did screw up last week when negotiating for a house
that the guy did not even want to sell. I noticed that there was a
vacant house
so I called the county to find the owner. I told him that a tree had
fallen in the back yard. He told me that he had just found out that the
tenants had moved out without telling him. It had been vacant for 4
months! So I happened to be there when he came by to look at the house
and the tree.
So I look at him, get rapport, and ask if being a landlord is always
this much trouble...he went back into the state of what he had been
going through with this house....I anchored it!!!
I told him that several people had asked me if it was for sale and if
he...would feel better selling it...or keeping it...fire anchor! I
mention that
if he took 10000 down and owner financed the house that if someone stuck
him by sneaking out...fire anchor!...that he would at least have the ten
grand that
they left behind...waited for that to soak in, he smiled, I anchored :)
I even told him that I had a friend that had sold the same house 4
times in 7 years. Imagine making all that extra money by having someone
walk out on you...fire good anchor. I pointed out that he could hang
onto it
and hope the next renter was better...fire bad anchor:)
Well as you can imagine he decided to sell the house. He even sold
it at 15 grand UNDER the market value just to get rid of it!!! The one
part where I screwed up was that he would not come off the 10 grand
down!!! Oh well
I guess I will know better next time :)
I'm sorry...anchoring is just for waitresses...right?
>You say Hall has no sales experience.
No I said that as far as I knew that he doesn't. Elvis said he didn't
have any experience in sales other than seminars and books. I then
pointed out that I did not comsider that selling.
> What's your experience? Are we supposed to think that boating back and
> forth on a lake getting your phone wet is "experience?"
No I call that being able to AFFORD the boat AND the phone AND the jet
ski!!!! :) How can I do that? Because I USE what I know instead of just
talking about it! I suggest that you give it A try.
I call boating FUN!!!!!!!!
Nevermind it is all bullshit and I never use what I know. :)
BTW Kurt.....what is your day job and how to you USE nlp in it
??????????????????????????????????????????????????
I showed you mine now show me yours :)
Keep happy Kurt,
Tom
Tom Vizzini
Jessekess wrote:
P.S. Tom this is not a slam I think your a good teacher
> too. I love your stuff, just don't agree here.
I appreciate your ability to disagree without being disagreeable.
I do think Dilts does a great job. I have seen him and really enjoyed
myself AND learned a lot! Dilts does very practical applications of NLP.
See ya Jesse,
the_real_...@my-deja.com
s-o-l-d
himself to WUSS' shill/girlfriend in Hawaii at a Sleaze Seduction week-
long event.
Now that's not really all that bad if you have met WUSS in person.
But Tommy Below_me Vizzoni is/was WUSS friend.
Wuss paid his way to Hawaii. Paid for him to stay in Hawaii and had to
watch while everyone knew Tommy was playing Below_me with Kimmy!
Wuss got creamed by Carmine Bafffaled.
Wuss was humiliated and trashed.
WUSS lost all credibility for a week or so.
Then he 'splained what really happened and Tommy Below_me and Kimmy
Outcall McFarland agreed that WUSS AND KIMMY had agreed that they had
an open relationship.
And Kimmy could swallow and WUSS would wear a condom.
It was all agree to.
Nobody lied. NOBODY LIED.
It just looked that way. You have to step back and put a new frame
around your friend getting his cock sucked.
That's what NLP is all about. Deny. Lie. Bullshit others and yourself.
Wuss is about to declare bankruptcy.
The JIG and I do mean JIG is up.
Kiss your ass goodbye anyone and everyone who defrauded, lied,
manipulated and stole money from men.
You are part of the CLASS ACTION.
Say goodnight, now.
HYMIE, AKA Hymen Ross Goldberg, attorney for the defrauded since 1989
Anonymous User
>Wuss is about to declare bankruptcy.
Evidence?
If this is so I hope Ross is reading this:
I have given you some of the best business advice you will ever get.
You have been spiraling down for quite some time.
I warned you that this lawsuit was a stupid stupid stupid move.
You cannot win even if you win if you catch my meaning, which apparently
you don't.
Let me lay it out for you:
Don Steel has nothing worth suing over.
By suing you draw attention to him and his charges.
The anarchy of the net allows your email list privacy to be violated by
ANYONE in a way that you CANNOT STOP short of closing the list from new
members. Winning a lawsuit against a dying old man will not stop it.
Don Steel is your Vietnam.
Not because he is so strong but because he chose a battle where even a
complete retard cannot lose.
hth
Jackie 'Anakin' Tokeman
stop me before i eat again
- steve chaney MUST BE STOPPED!
messageid: <4...@bigbottom.com> [AUTHENTICATION SIGNATURE: 4456438564542]
the snacks must flow. restore cheese production. or live out your life in a
pain amplifier
- steve chaney doesn't take shit from anybody
messageid: <b...@waddlingassmafia.org> [AUTHENTICATION SIGNATURE: 1458205664500]
the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the size of my ass
- steve chaney has a point
messageid: <326...@assmaster.net> [AUTHENTICATION SIGNATURE: 8418201194507]
i am a sinner
Elvis Keith Lester
Actually, in some way I think your intentionss are excellent.
I thought about your posts at a meta-level and recognized some things.
One, that you are seeking more information possibly.
Two, you don't mind voicing your opinions. That is a good thing for me as I
can take the input and build into what I do a response to it beforehand and
counter what it might have caused as a concern or issue.
Three, someone else may have that concern and I have just satisfied another
customer.
The most obvious issue is that you haven't attended a training and probably
won't get the benefit of doing the exercises and using the material as it is
taught to be used.
When you get it it seems to me that it all makes perfect sense. You will
see more posts coming out that indicate how valuable the material is.
The really most important thing is that Michael Hall is a good friend of
mine. I have high positive regard for him. I just plain don't like the way
you badmouth him for no reason other than to satisfy your needs to make a
contribution. In a negative way albeit.
E
Tom Vizzini wrote in message <37A8D8B5...@ga.prestige.net>...
>Hi Elvis,
>
> LOL!!! So....what is your point??? :) Gee you are really scaring me!
>
>Elvis Keith Lester wrote:
>>
>> It is a result of your arrogance. Want more. Keep giving it.
>> E
>>
>> Tom Vizzini wrote in message <37A7B40B...@ga.prestige.net>...
>> > God, is this the result of Meta States training?
>> >
Ross Jeffries
<lear...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> The really most important thing is that Michael Hall is a good friend of
> mine. I have high positive regard for him. I just plain don't like the way
> you badmouth him for no reason other than to satisfy your needs to make a
> contribution. In a negative way albeit.
> E
>
Well, what about me, Elvis? Do you think I'm "badmouthing" Michael? I
constantly recommend his books as being very excellent and have disagreed
publicly with Tom.
Yet I agree with and SHARE Tom's concerns about Michael doing a "sales"
training. I really don't see how someone who has never sold anything face
to face can even understand the real-world issues and situations faced by
people who do this sort of thing. It would be like the Pope teaching a
class on Speed Seduction...how would he even know what real world
situations and problems he has to address?
For the record...I believe the entire concept of MetaStates is a VERY
useful one and Mind-Lines is, for my money, the best book on sleight of
mouth and persuasive languaging I've ever read. And I have serious doubts
about Michael's ability to put on a useful seminar on Sales. Nothing
you've said has resolved those doubts.
I am further troubled by comments that Michael has the goal of
academizing NLP to make it more acceptable to universities, colleges and
other "mainstream" institutions. If indeed that is his agenda, or part of
it, it is NOT a good one for NLP. We need LESS academizing and
jargonizing, NOT more!
Elvis Keith Lester
The tone of your posts is different. It doesn't cut so deep.
It is more, IMO, apparent that you are interested in the response you
receive.
With re: to what Michael is doing with sales, he is continuing to refine the
sales program.
His skills at modeling are excellent. He will eventually be successful with
the program regardless of whether he has experience or not.
MH learns more and more from the students. As many as he can learn from
will be the increase in the value of the program. After a while the
patterns have become very clear. Anyhow, within the domain of sales the
models seem quite limited. So, there is quite a bit of room for growth.
I'm not saying that sales people require less education just that what they
have accepted to date and based their approaches on has very little depth.
That's where the Meta-States model has its power. We can take to new
heights. It won't be "an inch deep and a mile wide". It will be "an inch
wide and a mile deep". No what I mean. Focused and deliberate.
Ross, it won't be what I say that determines the value. It will of course
be the "pudding" that those who attend will find the proof. Time will tell!
Nowhere has MH indicated a desire to academize anything. If anything it is
to appreciate the diversity and utilize it. Or the multi-variate way things
can be done. What he is interested in is "creating a community". The
latest journal has the Mission statement and some guidelines that the
"Society of Neuro-Semantics" will bastian. I will have the information on
the website about the Society, membership, how to achieve certification to
do the trainings as a trainer, become an institute and more. Those who are
fretting about this or that might as well take a long nap and wake up to
realized the explosive development has occurred and a new field has emerged.
It is taking place. E
Rise above NOW!
You really do know HOW!
E
mirro...@webtv.net
stories oh well.
As for Hall, who is he? From my understanding of Elvis, Hall is a guy
who's only sales experience is selling books on selling.
Now if I want a model for typing, I look for a typist who knows how to
type. I don't look for a person who typed a book on how to type.
Seems kind of complex.
Hall's selling experience is selling How to Sell?
I think Tom has better models. That's cuz his models are actually
tested and used.
And I see Tom selling in here AND posting.
I only see Hall's "flunkies" selling him. Or maybe it is Hall under a
pseudonym selling himself by pretending to be one of his students.
And Elvis's opinions and response towards Tom do not make Hall or Elvis
look very good or reputable. Asking questions to make sure you
understand the whole lecture is bad, huh?
Oh oops asked a question I'm probably seeking "all-knowingness".
BTW isn't this "all-knowingness" what your Meta-model state crap is
about? You keep examining how you examine how you examine and it just
keeps looping? No thanks, I don't like broken records.
Speed-boats and jet skis and useful tools with instructions are A LOT
BETTER.
Elvis Keith Lester
>I only see Hall's "flunkies" selling him. Or maybe it is Hall under a
pseudonym selling himself by pretending to be one of his students.
Hey, my name IS Elvis you know. And, I do have a reputation to uphold.
Lighten up.
Do you have any questions?
>And Elvis's opinions and response towards Tom do not make Hall or Elvis
look very good or reputable. Asking questions to make sure you
understand the whole lecture is bad, huh?
You would've had to be there to understand the reference to this. It was
not about being able to ask questions in the training. The person wanted to
run the training and ramrod others with NLP skills that weren't appropriate
as it was a training for Meta-States. He actually thought he could Achieve
All-Knowingness then and there. How arrogant. You think?
>Oh oops asked a question I'm probably seeking "all-knowingness".
No.
Kurt Arbuckle
:
: Kurt Arbuckle wrote:
:
: >I will never go to one of Tom's trainings, because his own perspective is
: >so limited that I see no hope that he could ever broaden mine.
: >I don't
: >go to seminars to learn the stuff that feels right going in. I go to stretch
: >and fail and experiment and learn.
:
: Not to knit-pick, but Tom's doesn't feel right going in, does it? Maybe
: you'll try to stretch to see if his narrow perspective could broaden you
: and then you'll fail and learn?
Touche!!
I too wouldn't want to knit-pick, but you may notice that my statement
about Tom's training is full a visual predicates, not keno. HeHe.
Kurt
Kurt Arbuckle
:
: Yet I agree with and SHARE Tom's concerns about Michael doing a "sales"
: training. I really don't see how someone who has never sold anything face
: to face can even understand the real-world issues and situations faced by
: people who do this sort of thing. It would be like the Pope teaching a
: class on Speed Seduction...how would he even know what real world
: situations and problems he has to address?
experience of the subject to teach the model?
Does Dilts have to do full length
animated movies to teach his Disney pattern? Do you really think
Richard went out and worked at a car dealership? I don't know the
answer to that last question myself, but I know two things. One
is that I don't expect Bandler to have to come in and defend himself
just because somebody raises the question. Two is that Richard
is just as good at teaching persuasion whether he worked as a salesman
or not.
Kurt
Kurt Arbuckle
: Hi Kurt,
:
: Nice to see I am still getting to you :)
It's nice for me too. I'd hate to think I might ever
tolerate your stuff.
: Kurt Arbuckle wrote:
:
: > Which means Tom wants to sound good, but has very little to actually
: > say. He wants to be thought of as good at what he does, and he is
: > a self promoter.
:
: Kurt if all I wanted to do was sound good I would surely not
: post half the things I write. I could kiss ass and hug a tree but it
: is not my style. I would say that keeping my mouth shut would definately
: help my business. I would just be a politically correct butt kisser.
I presume others will know what I mean by you wanting to sound good. It
has nothing to do with hugging trees. In fact your paragraph above is
actually an example of sounding good without saying anything. Potential
students may want to note your inability to make the distinction. If
NLP is anything it includes being able to recognize and make useful
distinctions. Knowing when someone is just talking and when they are
actually saying something is an essential skill. It keeps one from getting
ripped off among other uses.
: He believes in doing whatever is in his best interests
: > at the moment, with little regard for what anyone else thinks.
:
: That is true. I write my opinion. My opinion is not dictated by
: what anyone else thinks. If you only write other people opinions
: then I suggest you think for yourself :)
More sounds good logic rather than good sound logic. Readers will note
that Tom is totally unable to even see the self centeredness.
: > Tom should appeal to that 80% with his concrete orientation, but his extreme
: > self centeredness will turn half those people off. Tom's such an extreme
: > case, that he is too inflexible to see he is pissing off half his potential
: > customers. He really can't see any other way than his.
:
:
: This is true. I do not really care who I piss off. I do not think it is
: inflexibility. I prefer the word independence. I do not want 80% of
: those who read here. Most of them I would prefer stay home. I want the
: 20% to 30% that want to learn how to really use NLP in their lives
: instead of just talking about it.
I leave the presuppositions in the above as an exercise for the 80% who
are smart enough not to buy into Tom's bs.
: > So I may never go to Hall's training, because he is not very entertaining.
: > I will never go to one of Tom's trainings, because his own perspective is
: > so limited that I see no hope that he could ever broaden mine.
:
: Don't worry you would never be allowed to attend.
: I want smart people:)
You *need* smart people, and as soon as possilbe.
: > But if someone has nothing to offer other than their own limited inflexible
: > view of the world, that "real world" of anchoring waitresses to salt shakers,
: > there's nothing that can be done. Better to stay home.
:
: If that is all you can see from the "example " of anchoring then
: I suggest that you are rather limited. If I can anchor to salt shakers,
: what else could I anchor to? Product, business cards, my voice, my
: state,
: my company and at least a few other things. I think if you can anchor
: someone who is running hecticly around serving food then what would you
: be able to do in a business setting??? Gee, if you added rapport to that
: and tonality and embedded commands how powerful could your communication
: get??? OH! Sorry I was
: just supposed to be talking about waitresses.
I have been needling you about the waitress and such as a way of
ridiculing your promotional stuff about the "real world" as if
you have some corner on what is the real world. I should have
quit when I first realized you don't get it.
: > As EKL said in another post, what's your day job, Tom, and how do you use
: > your basic skills in it? I bet you won't answer that question. I bet
: > you will ignore it or make some snide remark instead of answering it.
: > I bet I'll remind you if you do.
:
: I bet you lose :)
I bet you would never think of losing as an intended outcome, such as
to get someone to answer a question. :-)
:
: Sure you have asked twice and if you are really curious I will tell
: you. Stock broker for 3 years, real-estate agent for 4 years. I own a
: carpet business that has been successful for 10 years. Yes I have to
: sell in that business. I even install the carpet sometimes ( I get a
: little greedy from time to time). I buy and sell investment property for
: the last 6 years. I negotiate for others who are doing real-estate
: investments. I buy foreclosures and remodel them. I help others do it
: also. BTW Anchoring at a foreclosure auction is VERY profitable. :)
I hope you find something you can stick with.
: > forth on a lake getting your phone wet is "experience?"
:
: No I call that being able to AFFORD the boat AND the phone AND the jet
: ski!!!! :)
I rather expected that was what you wanted us to know. You
sure had Ross fooled. He thought it was a metaphor.
: BTW Kurt.....what is your day job and how to you USE nlp in it
: ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
: I showed you mine now show me yours :)
I'll tell you, but why don't you try to guess first? Everyone
else who reads this newsgroup already knows what I do, so you
are on your honor (LOL) not to cheat. Don't help him anyone.
Reply soon. Starting Sunday I'll be gone for a couple of weeks.
Kurt
rodger clampitt
>
> Seems kind of complex.
Well a lot of things are probably complex to one who only sees thing
simply.
> Hall's selling experience is selling How to Sell?
He's in good company along with Dilts, Gordon, etc.
> I think Tom has better models. That's cuz his models are actually
> tested and used.
How do you know that? Where is your proof?
> And I see Tom selling in here AND posting.
The only thing I see Tom selling is the "Young Turk" syndrome. He wants
to make a name for himself by attacking and denigrating a well known
and intelligent trainer. Hall has nothing to gain by debating Tom
in this n.g.
> I only see Hall's "flunkies" selling him. Or maybe it is Hall under a
> pseudonym selling himself by pretending to be one of his students.
What about you trollboy - You won't give your name. What are you
afraid of? Are you Tom's flunky?
> BTW isn't this "all-knowingness" what your Meta-model state crap is
> about? You keep examining how you examine how you examine and it just
> keeps looping? No thanks, I don't like broken records.
Hey dummy! it's Meta-State not meta-model. But then again it's from the
same guy who does not even know what the New Behavior Generator
pattern is or what it does. Get a brain and a name.
BigJiim
>useful one and Mind-Lines is, for my money, the best book on sleight of
>mouth and persuasive languaging I've ever read.
Hi Ross.....as you know I am one to respect your opinions and
ideas. Somehow I think we come from the same family. I'm
sure you have some insight into what that is, and yet....I still
have to wonder what it is you find useful about Michhael Hall's
Mind-Lines that isn't taught in most NLP Master Practioner
courses. We go over the patterns. We parrot the phrases (as
does the book ).
What do we learn about the patterns?
Does the book show/tell/let us know how we are supposed
to use Mind-Lines and for what purpose?
Maybe I missed it in my reading's.
"WHEN do I use what pattern to accomplish what?" is the question
I want answered. How does each pattern work and how can I use
this in, let's say business?
Having THE ONLY book on sleight of mouth patterns does not qualify
it as the best book on SOM.
I truely find Ross that we can indeed find many useful frickin'
tools in Michael Hall's writing's on Sleight of Mouth. He is THE one
to bring this concept to the public. He opens the possibility of movement in
language. Directed movement.
Thank you Michael.
Is this the extended works on Sleight of Mouth patterns. A
two pawn check-off where there is only one winner? Black or
white. We need to introduce to the public what and where SOM is. How it happens
and where it happens. What makes each distinction possible? What thought
patterns are running that makes each distinction impossible and maybe somewhat
posible?
How and which patterns do we code these in?
Just my simple stupid thoughts again,
big jim
P.S Ross...I find the meta-states model very useful as well.
take care my friend.....
Elvis Keith Lester
Some Good ideas about introducing to the public a certain way.
Michael is re-writing the Mind-Lines book and is adding many new pieces that
will make it even better including more use of Meta-States Model.
I will send him your comments. Elvis
BigJiim wrote in message <19990807012116...@ng-cb1.aol.com>...
Tom Vizzini
Elvis Keith Lester wrote:
>
> Be nice. You don't know me. One day you may wish you did.
LOL!!! And they call me a self centered arrogant egomaniac!!!!
Keep smilin'
Tom
Tom Vizzini
I suggest you read Welsy Andersons post on flaming. It might help
you with your future attempts. Until then lets take a look at what you
wrote.
rodger clampitt wrote:
>
> Hi Troll,
Nice start. It sets the tone for the rest of your post...adversarial
>
> > Hall's selling experience is selling How to Sell?
>
> He's in good company along with Dilts, Gordon, etc.
Nice classic misdirection but ineffective. Your attempt to
put Hall in the class of Gordon or Dilts is feable. It still
does not address the question about Hall specifically though.
Believe me, This strategy has not gotten me out of one single
traffic ticket :) " Everyboby else was speeding...."
>
> > I think Tom has better models. That's cuz his models are actually
> > tested and used.
>
> How do you know that? Where is your proof?
I posted several instances of when and where I have tested and
used NLP. So if you think I am lying just say so.
>
> > And I see Tom selling in here AND posting.
>
> The only thing I see Tom selling is the "Young Turk" syndrome. He wants
> to make a name for himself by attacking and denigrating a well known
> and intelligent trainer.
No, I started by asking questions that have only been met
with personal attacks. If asking questions is attacking and
denigrating then I am definately guilty. I have been here for
over 6 or 7 years and have always asked these kind of questions
when met with increadible claims.
Elvis made claims that Meta states was a completely new
and would make NLP obsolete. My question was...what specifically is new?
I was met with nothing but hostility and examples of
a bunch of things that were not , in my opinion ...new.
Hall has nothing to gain by debating Tom
> in this n.g.
I disagree, if Hall is going to advertise here and claim that his
meta states model will make nlp obsolete, then he should be willing to
back it up with an open debate. What he has to gain is credibility. I am
still looking for the new part.
>
> > I only see Hall's "flunkies" selling him. Or maybe it is Hall under a
> > pseudonym selling himself by pretending to be one of his students.
>
> What about you trollboy - You won't give your name. What are you
> afraid of? Are you Tom's flunky?
Very intelligent retort. Insults are the last resort of a failing
debate. I again suggest you read Wesley Anderson's post on flamimg if
you want to be able to do it effectively.
Have a day,
Ash Preetam
From what I understand, the new perspective that the Meta-
States model brings is that submodalities are not
the "difference that makes the difference", but it is the
higher levels of consciousness which do. At least that's
what Dr. Bodenhammer says in the Propulsions System video
tapes. I also believe that it's not Dr. Hall saying the
Meta-States is the model which will make NLP obsolete, but
rather other people who are. The exact quote "the model
that ate NLP" comes from a review in Anchor Point magazine
I believe. Also, from what I've seen it's the people who
have hosted Dr. Hall's trainings who have advertised on
this newsgroup, not Dr. Hall himself. If anyone has
questions for DR. Hall, he can be reached at
mic...@neurosemantics.com
Have a great weekend everyone and God Bless.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Elvis Keith Lester
I haven't read or heard anyone call you an egomaniac yet.
Elvis
Tom Vizzini wrote in message <37AC3B3A...@ga.prestige.net>...
>Elvis Keith Lester wrote:
>> Be nice. You don't know me. One day you may wish you did.
> LOL!!! And they call me a self centered arrogant egomaniac!!!!
>
>Keep smilin'
Elvis Keith Lester
> Nice classic misdirection but ineffective. Your attempt to
>put Hall in the class of Gordon or Dilts is feable. It still
>does not address the question about Hall specifically though.
I am sure the tests you refer to were scientific and not contaminated by
experimenter bias. Huh?
BTW, Where did you learn your experimental techniques.
Stock brokerage, real estate or carpet school?
> I posted several instances of when and where I have tested and
>used NLP. So if you think I am lying just say so.
Go back and reread your posts and then go back and reread the tone of my
posts. With you, Both guns were blazing from the get go. With me, I was
making the effort to offer you insights I have/had/made and provide the
information you were asking for.
I posted the "formal" definition as it appears in the "Meta-States Journal"
as written by its author. You didn't like it and proceeded with your
belittling and "no-it-allness" posts.
For instance:
2/28/99
>AAAAAAAHHHH!!!!
Tom Vizzini's writings-
>With that said and the Jargon cleared out of my head Let me condense this
so that real people >might understand it. This definition is the reason that
I am not a fan of Hall and Bodenhammer. >Lots of words and little meaning.
Here is one of your questions I guess you are referring to:
>I know...it makes for a very short book or a very short seminar but it is
all that there is to meta states as far as I can see.
Just not the case. Judgmental and mind made up. You'd read the book or two
(you claim) and already had put your powerful mind to 'ciphering its value
and true meaning:
> No, I started by asking questions that have only been met with personal
attacks. If asking >questions is attacking and denigrating then I am
definately guilty. I have been here for
>over 6 or 7 years and have always asked these kind of questions when met
with increadible >claims.
Again, not true re: "obsolete". What an overgeneralization bent to support
your argument.
I did refer to it as a "new way" to do changework. It does qualify as such
IMO.
> Elvis made claims that Meta states was a completely new
>and would make NLP obsolete.
And, I answered. Go back and reread.
You ignored, as is traditional with your posting style and jumped on to more
belittling.
Key words here are ... ya'll can guess... "IMO".
>My question was...what specifically is new?
>I was met with nothing but hostility and examples of
>a bunch of things that were not , in my opinion ...new.
===============
Here is what I really said:
"Establish a new level and rise above what you thought possible. Raise the
Bar!
Go Meta! Spend your training dollar on achieving EXCELLENCE &
Accessing YOUR personal GENIUS! Nowhere else will you receive
Training in the Meta-States Model & certify in Neuro-Semantics."
AND
"ANNOUNCING Powerful, New way to achieve the highest levels of change
possible with clients? Discover the Meta-States Model for personal and
professional excellence to make profound & pervasive changes in Identity,
Mission, Values, Beliefs, Concepts quickly & easily."
Is this what you were referring to Tom?
======================
Here's what I said others said:
Many have Described it as
the Most Exciting New Development
and New Paradigm in NLP (the Psychology
of Achievement & Excellence) in the 1990's
Meta-States
The Third Meta-Domain of NLP
That Offers To Streamline & Integrate the NLP Model Itself
"The most significant contribution to NLP, 1995"
"The Meta-States Model could end up becoming known as
the model that ate NLP"
All of which are quotes not from my mouth.
I agree 100% here!
> Hall has nothing to gain by debating Tom
>> in this n.g.
Again, Hall is not advertising here. I am. I am a part of the ng, like it
or not. I do promote trainings and will continue to do so. You have a
killfile right?
Hall made no such comment, nor did I. You may be referring to someone
else's quote.
> I disagree, if Hall is going to advertise here and claim that his
>meta states model will make nlp obsolete, then he should be willing to
>back it up with an open debate. What he has to gain is credibility. I am
>still looking for the new part.
Elvis
rodger clampitt
> Hi Roger,
>
> I suggest you read Welsy Andersons post on flaming. It might help
> you with your future attempts. Until then lets take a look at what you
> wrote.
> rodger clampitt wrote:
> >
> > Hi Troll,
>
> Nice start. It sets the tone for the rest of your post...adversarial
Of course I was slamming a troll not you so I was adversarial. I don't
play nice with trolls.
> >
> > > Hall's selling experience is selling How to Sell?
> >
> > He's in good company along with Dilts, Gordon, etc.
>
> Nice classic misdirection but ineffective. Your attempt to
> put Hall in the class of Gordon or Dilts is feable. It still
> does not address the question about Hall specifically though.
> Believe me, This strategy has not gotten me out of one single
> traffic ticket :) " Everyboby else was speeding...."
I elaborate on the context of my remark. Dilts, Gordon, Woodsmall and
others who build models. May not have the capacity to really apply it them
to themselves. Dilts modeled Tesla for example but does that mean since
he can't create something akin to that of Alternating Current that he is
a fraud? I don't think so. The same holds true for Hall.
As far your leadfooting goes ... no comment.
> >
> > > I think Tom has better models. That's cuz his models are actually
> > > tested and used.
> >
> > How do you know that? Where is your proof?
>
> I posted several instances of when and where I have tested and
> used NLP. So if you think I am lying just say so.
How many people have you taught your model to and what was their
results? Preferable I would like them to post to this n.g.
Otherwise I don't really care what you said you did. One persons
supposed success in one specific context does not validate a
model. If you train say a 6 people to successfully apply a model
you designed then you have something really worthwhile.
> >
> > > And I see Tom selling in here AND posting.
> >
> > The only thing I see Tom selling is the "Young Turk" syndrome. He wants
> > to make a name for himself by attacking and denigrating a well known
> > and intelligent trainer.
>
> No, I started by asking questions that have only been met
> with personal attacks. If asking questions is attacking and
> denigrating then I am definately guilty. I have been here for
> over 6 or 7 years and have always asked these kind of questions
> when met with increadible claims.
Can you be specific with who has attacked you over your
opinion on the meta-state issue and show proof?
The only personal attacks I ever read were by you in a indirect
manner against Elvis for example.
> Elvis made claims that Meta states was a completely new
> and would make NLP obsolete. My question was...what specifically is new?
> I was met with nothing but hostility and examples of
> a bunch of things that were not , in my opinion ...new.
Tell me where in Hall's writing where that is stated?
> Hall has nothing to gain by debating Tom
> > in this n.g.
>
> I disagree, if Hall is going to advertise here and claim that his
> meta states model will make nlp obsolete, then he should be willing to
> back it up with an open debate. What he has to gain is credibility. I am
> still looking for the new part.
Again where specifically has Hall stated in anyone of his publications or
articles that Meta-States will make NLP obsolete? Please cite your references.
Hall has nothing to lose by ignoring you. Had his critics been Dilts, Sikes,
Andreas, O'conner or others I would agree that a open discussion might be
relevant. But since you are the lone voice in the wilderness on this I
have to wonder about your real intentions.
> >
> > > I only see Hall's "flunkies" selling him. Or maybe it is Hall under a
> > > pseudonym selling himself by pretending to be one of his students.
> >
> > What about you trollboy - You won't give your name. What are you
> > afraid of? Are you Tom's flunky?
>
> Very intelligent retort. Insults are the last resort of a failing
> debate. I again suggest you read Wesley Anderson's post on flamimg if
> you want to be able to do it effectively.
I couldn't care less what Wesely says.
BTW why are you defending a troll?
> Have a day,
>
> Tom
I always have a good day regardless of what you say :-)
ja...@email.com
In article <37ADD2...@No2Spamqnet.com>,
Kay Pentecost
Elvis Keith Lester wrote in message
<7ocv21$rr4$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>Ross,
>The tone of your posts is different. It doesn't cut so deep.
>It is more, IMO, apparent that you are interested in the response you
>receive.
>
>With re: to what Michael is doing with sales, he is continuing to refine
the
>sales program.
>His skills at modeling are excellent. He will eventually be successful
with
>the program regardless of whether he has experience or not.
I'm not going to comment on the rest of this, but
if he's going to be successful *eventually*,
I think I'd prefer to wait until he *was* successful before I
signed up for the course...
Just my too sense.
Kay
<rest snipped>
mirro...@webtv.net
What's a troll? I've been posting here off and on for a few months I
think. You can deja.com me and see that one of my top related forums is
alt.psychology.nlp
Oh and I'm not a public figure, that's why I don't give out my name. I
also am not selling anything here, if I was you would have my name and
an address to send a check to.
Ofcourse, Hall isn't selling anything here either. Other people are
selling him. At least that's what it looks like to me and a few other
people. If you are giving a workshop on how to sell things, and you
don't sell your own workshop yourself, how good does that make you look?
Wesley Anderson, DCH
<rcla...@No2Spamqnet.com> writes:
> Very intelligent retort. Insults are the last resort of a failing
>> debate. I again suggest you read Wesley Anderson's post on flamimg if
>> you want to be able to do it effectively.
>
> I couldn't care less what Wesely says.
>
Bravo! I couldn't agree more!
Wesely
David Gould
<lear...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Again, Hall is not advertising here. I am. I am a part of the ng, like it
>or not. I do promote trainings and will continue to do so. You have a
>killfile right?
I like your forthrightness, but I'd also like to ask you how you justify
advertising in this ng.
For example, I could probably get paid a reasonable sum of money to fill
this and other newsgroups with adverts. What if I filled your personal
inbox with unsolicited advertising?
This goes for everyone else who shamelessly advertises here.
Dave. ICQ# 41439724
Muskateer
I have a brainstorm of an idea for you to consider. Why don't you just go to
Michael's website and ask your questions, instead of issuing childish Dodge
City at High Noon challenges to him? You clearly pretend much in thinking he
considers anything you say to be a serious challenge to his accomplishments,
credibility and skill. In fact I doubt Michael knows you exist on the planet.
I don't know you, so I don't pretend to know why you continue to rant on and on
about Michael so negatively. I do have a guess or two that serves no useful
purpose here, so I'll keep them to myself. At best it's silly ego indulgence to
think Michael is hiding from you or anyone else on this group. At worst it's
delusional. He's too busy being successful traveling the planet presenting his
Meta States Model and it's powerful and effective applications to give your
attempts to discredit and call him out the time of day.
The market rules and is smarter than you seemingly think Tom. If what Michael
is presenting with his various Meta States Training's is without value worthy
of the markets money and or is a cheap and shameful rip-off of already
available NLP/DHE cognitive technology....the market will find out and Michael
will have to find another way to earn a living.
HOWEVER, if what he's offering does in fact do all he claims it does
(see: http://www.neurosemantics.com for details on the Meta States Model and
it's various applications), the market will also find out, then Michael will
have to figure out how to be in twenty places at once to accept allllllll the
offers to hold Meta States Training's that will rush through his door from all
avenues.
The market will also decide if YOU are Essentially Skilled enough to be worthy
of it's money.......long term. Time will tell on both counts my friend.
Tom, meanwhile, why don't we let the market decide? As if we have a choice. :-)
Regards,
Rob Blake
musk...@aol.com
PS About the person you claim emailed you about not liking the Meta States
Training in FL, Michael's presentation nor Elvis? Let's assume you really did
get such an email. I'll give you that Tom. You don't in your WILDEST
HALLUCINATIONS believe EVERYONE who'll EVER attend one of your Essential Skills
Workshops or buys your ES CD set will be 100% satisfied do you?
Despite his weirdness, Michael Jackson holds the ALL TIME RECORD for the
highest selling album in history, THRILLER, selling somewhere around 65 MILLION
copies over the years and growing each year. With only four months to go to
2000, clearly Michael has a vicegrip hold on having THE GREATEST SELLING ALBUM
OF THE 20th CENTURY! Despite this tremendous achievement, there's still
MILLIONS of people who didn't and won't buy the album, don't like one single
song on the album and wouldn't go see him in concert if they got a FREE ticket
and a limo ride to the stadium.
I read somewhere years ago that Michael negotiated to be paid $5 per unit sold,
plus royalties! What the hell does he care about who DIDN'T BUY OR LIKE his
album?
No Michal Hall isn't Michael Jackson. However, most reading this will get my
meaning. Will they not?
Elvis Keith Lester
I justify it as an added benefit to the ng to find out about key training
events taking place worldwide. Access to this information will help the
readers determine what choices to make and have more options/opportunity to
train in models that advance NLP and the domaine of knowledge.
Since I am not in it for the $$, I am in it for the value it holds and the
tools it provides to those who learn and apply the model. It would be a
travesty if the information was not received by those on the ng IMO. Many
will benefit from the Meta-States Model and neuro-semantics especially as an
addition to the NLP base they already possess. My belief.
Also, there will always be advertising on THIS ng as it is standard practice
now. If we accept it, then we can appreciate it. I make a commitment to
offer something of value when I do advertise or make an announcement.
It is true that I get probably 15-20 ads a day, one reason is I participate
in PlanetALL.
I get these, browse them and sometimes find value within them. If it isn't
what it is offering it may be in the language used, the marketing
strategy/skill, etc.
Anyhow, I will also make offers for information, product here on the ng that
are specific to the ng from time to time. Also, I enjoy the feedback
believe it or not. It is interesting at times and valuable to me to hear
from seasoned and novice buyers, promoters, trainers, readers, etc.
Adaptation is a skill I practice often. Tomorrow I may write a different
response to your post.
E
David Gould wrote in message <37ad9f6f...@news.netgates.co.uk>...
PStuart
>I'd also like to ask you how you justify
>advertising in this ng.
What's wrong with advertising? As long as an ad in a newsgroup is clearly
marked as such in the subject heading, and is on-topic for the group, it's fair
game, as far as I'm concerned. Ads and other kind of announcements are how you
learn about goods and services. It's okay to buy and sell things, you know...
>For example, I could probably get paid a reasonable sum of money to fill
>this and other newsgroups with adverts. What if I filled your personal
>inbox with unsolicited advertising?
There's a big difference between Spam and topical advertising. The key is in
the appropriateness of the posting.
Personally, at least half of all postings in this newsgroup, advertising or
not, are things I have no interest in reading. So I ignore them, delete them,
or whatever. It's easy to do. If you get unsolicited ads in your e-mail, that's
a different story, IMO.
93 93/93
Phil
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Paradigm Shift! -- http://members.aol.com/para93/
Phil's Magick Page -- http://members.aol.com/rbcfpstu/
Or go to keyword.com and enter "magick", "hypnosis", or "paradigm"
David Gould
<lear...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I justify it as an added benefit to the ng to find out about key training
>events taking place worldwide.
If that's the case, what's wrong with:
"Announcing training A with trainers B in area C. Please see website D
for more information".
>Also, there will always be advertising on THIS ng as it is standard practice
>now. If we accept it, then we can appreciate it.
There will always be advertising on this newsgroup, because some people
think there is a possible boost to their bank balance and their image
which is worth more to them than abusing a free and natural resource and
annoying 99% of the readers.
If acceptance is ignoring a few people's selfish actions that interfere
with everyone else's outcomes, then I'm not a very accepting person.
I wonder if there is anyone reading this who doesn't want an open
newsgroup, where people are free to learn and teach without being flamed
or swamped by adverts.
>I make a commitment to offer something of value when I do advertise or make >an announcement.
You have offered little of value to me. Anyone out there want to declare
some value to them?
Again, I am picking on you because you offered that opportunity. Your
own posts are a tiny part of the problem. Hopefully the others out there
know who they are.
Besides, most people don't like being "sold" to. They start feeling bad,
become very tight with money and have an internal frame of reference.
I don't think you want people to associate that state with your product.
I will never buy a training from anyone who advertises on this
newsgroup. And the best trainers don't need to.
Dave. ICQ# 41439724
Elvis Keith Lester
This is my belief and I'll support it.
>>I justify it as an added benefit to the ng to find out about key training
>>events taking place worldwide.
Nothing wrong with a shourt and sweet ad except that it doesn't work well
with those who would like more info. Sounds like none is more to you.
I enjoy writing adverts and seeing what response I get. It is part of a
learning curve I am on. I do admit I have a lot to learn when it comes to
marketing.
Selfish! Interfere with everyone's outcomes?!?
>If acceptance is ignoring a few people's selfish actions that interfere
>with everyone else's outcomes, then I'm not a very accepting person.
This is an open ng and that is why ads are submitted.
>I wonder if there is anyone reading this who doesn't want an open
>newsgroup, where people are free to learn and teach without being flamed
>or swamped by adverts.
What would you like to know that is not an ad. I'll reply to whatever
request you have about Meta-States & Neuro-Semantics and even get you a
reply direct from its developer. How's that for benefit to having someone
around that has this type of access. Is that so bad?
>You have offered little of value to me. Anyone out there want to declare
>some value to them?
I have tough skin. Post away.
>Again, I am picking on you because you offered that opportunity. Your
>own posts are a tiny part of the problem. Hopefully the others out there
>know who they are.
That's why I provide information and try to make it particular to the
individuals I am posting to.
>Besides, most people don't like being "sold" to.
Of course not. Only abundance, prosperity, success, excellence, that's
all.
>I don't think you want people to associate that state with your product.
Well. I have a hunch that that wasn't because of my posting ads here.
>I will never buy a training from anyone who advertises on this
>newsgroup. And the best trainers don't need to.
E
PStuart
>There will always be advertising on this newsgroup, because some people
>think there is a possible boost to their bank balance and their image
And that's wrong in what way?
>I will never buy a training from anyone who advertises on this
>newsgroup. And the best trainers don't need to.
Sheesh... I've seen announcements here for Richard Bandler's seminars... and
many others who are indisputably "best trainers"... You'll never buy a training
from Richard?
David Gould
>What's wrong with advertising?
What's right with it?
>It's okay to buy and sell things, you know...
I agree, but this has nothing to do with advertising, which is mostly
about trying to persuade people they want to waste their money on
something when in fact they actually don't.
There are plenty of people on the Internet who will give you free and
impartial advice if you're want something.
>There's a big difference between Spam and topical advertising.
A blatant plug for luncheon meat ;-}
>Personally, at least half of all postings in this newsgroup, advertising or
>not, are things I have no interest in reading.
If only 50% of the messages were worth reading...
Dave. ICQ# 41439724
PStuart
>>What's wrong with advertising?
>
>What's right with it?
Any number of things... in general, advertising drives a free enterprise
economy.
>I agree, but this has nothing to do with advertising, which is mostly
>about trying to persuade people they want to waste their money on
>something when in fact they actually don't.
You have a rather limited view of advertising. If a product is not advertised,
who will even know about it to purchase it? Do you think all advertising is
dishonest? Do you NEVER buy products that you see advertised in newspapers,
magazines, television? You must have had some bad experience in your youth to
be maintaining this kind of phobia.
>There are plenty of people on the Internet who will give you free and
>impartial advice if you're want something.
Sure... and there are plenty who will give you bullshit for free, too. Either
way, that's not a training.
>If only 50% of the messages were worth reading...
Have you done your part to increase the signal to noise ratio?
David Gould
>>There will always be advertising on this newsgroup, because some people
>>think there is a possible boost to their bank balance and their image
>
>And that's wrong in what way?
I didn't say it was wrong. I just said it was at others' expense (the
bit you snipped).
>>I will never buy a training from anyone who advertises on this
>>newsgroup. And the best trainers don't need to.
>
>Sheesh... I've seen announcements here for Richard Bandler's seminars... and
>many others who are indisputably "best trainers"... You'll never buy a training
>from Richard?
I haven't seen any adverts for Richard's trainings (may have been
filtered out). But he certainly doesn't need to.
The point is that there are so many trainers who are in that league who
don't advertise here.
Despite the garbage, some trainers are still posting great stuff here,
including Steve Andreas and Wesley Anderson, and I've never seen an
advert from them. And I really appreciate it.
Dave. ICQ# 41439724
David Gould
<lear...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I enjoy writing adverts and seeing what response I get.
You got a big response! You started a flame-fest or three..
>Selfish! Interfere with everyone's outcomes?!?
Again, the ad was just a tiny part of the problem, so don't take it too
personally.
There are hundreds of NLPers, mostly trainers, who would like to share
what they know, but don't have the forum to do so. Many of them used to
do it here.
What about the thousands of people who drop by and think "What a load of
crap"?
>What would you like to know that is not an ad. I'll reply to whatever
>request you have about Meta-States & Neuro-Semantics and even get you a
>reply direct from its developer. How's that for benefit to having someone
>around that has this type of access. Is that so bad?
Sounds great! Maybe others will have requests. What I'd like to see is a
demonstration of the application of Meta-States (I don't have a clue
what Neuro-Semantics is).
Maybe an actual transcript of where it was successfully used with
someone, and worked better than other standard NLP techniques might
have.
If it's good enough, I reckon you'll will get more customers from that
than from the ads.
>>Again, I am picking on you because you offered that opportunity. Your
>>own posts are a tiny part of the problem. Hopefully the others out there
>>know who they are.
>
>That's why I provide information and try to make it particular to the
>individuals I am posting to.
Information is one thing. Self-promotion is another.
See, we have this wonderful thing here called the Internet. There are
hundreds of thousands of people who self-lessly give their time,
providing high quality information for free.
I can go on any relevant newsgroup and ask "what is the best X?"
And I always get useful responses.
I can look for X on a search engine or Deja.Com, and half the time,
somebody's already done the work, and written a fair comparison, often
much better than I could do after many hours work.
Hopefully, commercialism won't choke the Internet, but it might.
>>Besides, most people don't like being "sold" to.
>
>Of course not. Only abundance, prosperity, success, excellence, that's
>all.
Seems a wild leap from here. It's usually unsolicited phone calls at
8am, salespeople who make you feel bad for not buying and buyers'
remorse for the rest of your life.
>>I don't think you want people to associate that state with your product.
>
>Well. I have a hunch that that wasn't because of my posting ads here.
Well. You just presupposed that association (for anyone following the
thread)!
Dave. ICQ# 41439724
David Gould
>>I agree, but this has nothing to do with advertising, which is mostly
>>about trying to persuade people they want to waste their money on
>>something when in fact they actually don't.
>
>You have a rather limited view of advertising.
Maybe, but I merely stated a necessarily limited view of advertising
here.
>If a product is not advertised, who will even know about it to purchase it?
A very good question indeed!
Firstly, I don't expect much to change. As long as people's purchasing
decisions are apparently influenced by advertising, then it can be a
very effective way of increasing product sales.
That aside, does anyone have figures on how much is spent on
advertising, globally and annually? My guess is $100+ billion.
Without mentioning all the wonderful things that could instead be done
with money, your contention is that money actually helps the (world)
economy.
There's a deletion there which requires us to fill in what the
alternatives are.
For this to be true (classic economics AFAIK), advertising would, on
average, have to help people make buying decisions.
As you said, without product information widely available, a market
would not work at all well.
OTOH, I don't know what the case in America is, but in the UK, we limit
the amount that prospective Members of Parliament are allowed to spend
on advertising. This is because the best/richest advertisers don't
necessarily make the best government.
Likewise, the best/richest advertisers don't necessarily make the best
product.
We have various regulations on advertising here, such that eg. you're
not allowed to say that drinking alcohol gets you laid more, although
every advert for insipid alcoholic drinks (90% of alcoholic drink
advertising) implies that.
So what's the way to ensure that reliable product information is widely
available, without distorting the public's natural decision making
processes?
Ideally, this is the government's job. But that's never going to work in
the real world.
There are various fee-paying independent services to advise on products
eg. Which? magazine, financial advisers. There's the Internet as I've
already mentioned.
What I'd like to see are competing, fee-based, independent organisations
that give advice on all products.
>Do you think all advertising is dishonest?
Of course not. It's a case of 99% being dishonest and the other 1% being
so associated with that dishonesty as to be indistinguishable.
>Do you NEVER buy products that you see advertised in newspapers,
>magazines, television?
It's probably unavoidable, but I try.
>You must have had some bad experience in your youth to
>be maintaining this kind of phobia.
It's my choosing, based on bad experience *every day*.
>>There are plenty of people on the Internet who will give you free and
>>impartial advice if you're want something.
>
>Sure... and there are plenty who will give you bullshit for free, too. Either
>way, that's not a training.
Actually, AFAIK, I've never been given bad advice via the Internet. Or
if I have, there's been more conflicting good advice.
>>If only 50% of the messages were worth reading...
>
>Have you done your part to increase the signal to noise ratio?
Every single word I post is intended to increase the signal to noise
ratio in alt.psychology.nlp. Not just mine, but those others I can
influence too. I don't dedicate my life to it, but I put in roughly half
an hour a day.
If you (or anyone else) think I can do better, please let me know how.
FWIW, I appreciate your contributions to this newsgroup.
Dave.
(Private feedback on this message appreciated)
PStuart
>Every single word I post is intended to increase the signal to noise
>ratio in alt.psychology.nlp. Not just mine, but those others I can
>influence too. I don't dedicate my life to it, but I put in roughly half
>an hour a day.
>
>If you (or anyone else) think I can do better, please let me know how.
Sure... My personal opinion here is that complaints about other posts remain
noise... That is, complaints about noise are just more noise. If you think the
quality of existing posts is poor, then add signal. Signal begets signal, noise
begets noise.
Complaints about other posts is a pet peeve of mine, and almost always
generates this response from me.