Unbelievable?
Use-Author-A...@127.1
In article <MPG.1a32dd986...@news.supernews.com>
Stephen K. Gielda <st...@packetderm-no-spam.com> wrote:
>
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> I received a rather strange non-anonymous e-mail from someone I
> didn't expect to act this way, not mentioning names and it was not
> from a present nor previous subscriber. But the gist of the message
> was that the goal is to make this group so flooded with crap in an
> attempt to banish frog that it didn't matter at all if people
> wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the pro-frog and
> anti-frog crowd because it was their group and frog must be banished.
> This person was angry and claimed I set the cause back immeasurably
> by posting that I saw no difference between the flooding of anti-frog
> posts and the flooding of pro-frog posts. If that is indeed true,
> good, and hopefully this post will set the goal of fighting abuse
> with abuse back even further. Fighting abuse with abuse only makes
> you an abuser too.
>
> It does nothing to address the real frog abuse of adding users who
> complain about abuse from his remailer to his abuse headers and only
> does damage to the remailers and the public perception of them.
> Carrying this vendetta on in apas and into alt.privacy and flooding
> anyone who disagrees with it is pure childish behaviour on both
> sides. It will not result in the banishment of frog nor get him to
> address his abuse and will only result in every possible usenet
> service filtering anonymous messages and solidifying to the general
> public that remailers are only used for abuse. Anyone who floods and
> abuses via the remailers has only one goal, to hurt and demolish the
> remailers. No other goal can be accomplished in this manner so they
> must want the remailers gone.
I'm sorry you found my message unbelivable. I find your retort
believable enough. However, I don't know where you have been for the
last 4 years. Your statement above ignores what we have learned in this
group over and over and over. Many decent individuals have stayed in
this group even when you could not bother because of floods or
whatever. It's very easy for you to say that those returning insults to
frog detract from the real issues. Do you think we have not made
efforts to speak of real issues in these years?
It is very noble, what you speak of, but what about the libel and
slander committed in return? Insults are one thing. Character
assasination is another thing entirely. Many decent people have walked
the high road. Their statements on real issues are lost among the
personal attacks on them at a ratio of thousands to 1. Think about it.
Being a good guy here, fighting the good fight, may well preclude hopes
of future employment opportunities. By just being a good guy and
speaking from time to time on frog's abuse, _you_ could conceivably
watch your business evaporate before your eyes. You have had only the
slightest taste of what it is to fight the good fight here. I dare you
to continue speaking against frog's abuse. I dare you to do it
regularly. Many of us no longer care if the new readers cannot tell the
good guys from the bad. This group belongs to us. When this group
becomes fit for human consumption again it will also be a decent place
for new members. We want that sorry piece of shit frog out of here and
we want that remailer closed forever. We have no one to rely on other
than ourselves. Bluejay is one of us and your public humiliation of him
was uncalled for and unprofessional for a businessman such as yourself.
I know for a fact that previous to this latest flareup you had no
problem whatsoever with Bluejays efforts. That puts you in the same
boat as Bluejay and anyone who else who has posted what you call crap,
to our newsgroup. Once on the hotseat, your tune changes quite a bit.
Regarding your interpretation that I support flooding. I never
suggested that. Anyone bothering to read what goes on here would see
that frog or pro-frog posts generate 1, 2, maybe 3 anti-followups by
what appear to be separate anonymous individuals. That is my honest
evaluation. There are some original articles as well. Certainly less
than a dozen a day on average. Nothing more than Bluejay posted and you
stated yourself that was not flooding or abuse. What some, such as
yourself, may call insults, others might call hitting the nail on the
head or telling it like it is. Is that abuse? Is being sick of the
years of ineffective attempts to stop the real abuse here and deciding
on a lower road necessarily abuse? You have never seen flooding here by
anti-frog members and so had no reason to consider what I espoused as
condoning flooding.
It is as plain as day that no amount of logical discussion will change
anything here. And rants against the xremailer header have been
frequent and vociferous. You probably don't know that. You don't read
here that much--you say. There are those of us who have stayed to fight
for a better group. We don't turn away when it gets ugly, like you do.
We have a right to fight back.
As for carrying a vendetta over to alt.privacy, I have no idea what you
speak of. Could that not have been done by some frog supporter. It
sounds like a frog tactic to discredit you. Whatever the cause, you
have done this yourself with this very article you posted. You have no
room to speak on that issue at all.
One very important fact that you have totally ignored. You tell us that
fighting abuse with abuse is makes one an abuser. You also seem to
narrow the abuse going on here to flooding and frog's placing email
addresses in his X-Remailer-Contact header. I would also assume you
consider frog's putting anti-cotse propaganda in a disclaimer in the
body of every message leaving frog remailer as abuse. I sure do. I see
no one else commiting these abuses. To speak, even in an insulting
manner, is not abuse. It may be unpopular and it may be disruptive but
that is not abuse. You are out of line on that issue. What I see is not
abuse but what you call crap. In an earlier email message the day
before the one we speak of here, I asked you, "Was the Boston Tea Party
crap?" Might I also note that in that case, the good fight eventually
lead to full-scale war because words were ineffective. Please forgive
me for comparing such revered historical events to our current
situation.
What you say above is admirable, but it has not worked. In this group
you either shutup or you pull your hat on tight and get on and ride it
out. There's no choice in the matter and that is not because the good
people of this group want it that way. By necessity, shitbag admin has
to go. He will never see peace in this group again.
You have literally put words in my mouth with your post. You have
called me an abuser when I have not abused nor stated abuse was
necessary or desirable. In our group I have not seen any abuse from
anon or non-anon sources speaking against frog-admin. I have not seen
flooding and I have seen no other remailer operators placing anyone's
email addresses in their message headers. I have seen recent flood
messages with subject 'frog-admin, make your newsserver filters
public'. There is no doubt in my mind those messages were from the
exact same source as the thousands of other flood messages that
accompanied them. I have also seen what you call crap, and you have
hosted what you call crap on your own server and you have said
emphatically that is not abuse.
It was wrong of you to humiliate Bluejay publicly. That point was also
in the message I sent you privately. You didn't address that issue in
your post. Could you explain that omission? I believe you have an
obligation to make things right with him. I don't expect you will.
That's your decision. You just look at a.p.a.s today. That is what
_you_ did to Bluejay. I think it is also fair to point out that now
that Bluejay is out of the picture, no anti-cotse propaganda has
appeared in frog remailer messages.
For the benefit of those who wonder what the hell I said, I'm including
my message to you for their benefit. It was not fear that stopped me
from addressing the issue with you publicly. I simply did not want to
do what you did to Bluejay.
I support what Bluejay has done for us, 100%. I have not always agreed
with what he said. I whinced each time he refered to non-blocking
remops as scumbags. I can understand those remops position as well.
Bluejay he is his own man and I'm quite certain he chose that nick
because of the rowdy nature of the bird. I'm not going to quibble with
him. He has done us too much good. He is our librarian and researcher.
Using google he has exposed what has transpired here over the years. He
has not only connected frog with the ugliness and floods that go on
here, he has connected frog with the same thing in other groups. Among
other things, frog's use of homosexually descriptive speech in other
groups directly ties him to flooding in this group where it is quite
common and recently more often part of the flood than absent. Bluejay
has given us a chronicle of the first attempted hostile takeover of the
anonymous remailer network. If you think the goal is confined to the
domination of this newsgroup, you are sadly uninformed, and that, by
your own choice. Now, that chronicle that Bluejay spent endless hours,
days, weeks, and months on, is gone.
I support Bluejay 100%. For any of you who have supported me in the
past, but now find my position offensive. I'm sorry. We will have to
agree to disagree.
Richard
The email to which you refer:
- ------------------------------------------
From: QuickSilver <quick...@skuz.net>
To: st...@cotse.com
Subject: Bluejay
Hi Steve,
I see Bluejays pages are gone. I don't know if you terminated Bluejays
account or he just took them down. If you had to terminate the account
I'm sure you had no choice. I don't know the specifics.
Today I saw something in the group from Bluejay expressing some pretty
valid feelings. Humiliating Bluejay after you knowingly had allowed
things to go as long and as far as they went was wrong. You should have
communicated with him privately just as he did with you. You had no
business treating a user of your service in that manner.
We need Bluejay. I guess the state of our newsgroup is not of much
importance to you. You just go away when it doesn't suit you. Those of
us with the desire for a better group don't go away. We've tried to
improve our group in nice polite ways for years. You are concerned that
new people will not know the good guys from the bad? Many of us no
longer care if the new readers cannot tell the difference. This group
belongs to us first. When it becomes fit for human consumption again it
will also be a decent place for new members. We want that sorry piece
of shit frog out of our group and we want that remailer closed forever.
You have set our efforts back immeasurably. There was no one who
contributed more. He documented what has transpired. Bluejay was our
front line and he liked it and we liked it. Certainly, I did not like
some things he said, but who am I to tell him what is appropriate and
what is not. I was just so happy he was here. I got him to come back on
a previous occassion. I'm very dissapointed and think you should seek a
means of correcting the damage you have done.
Richard
The email of the previous day:
- -----------------------------------
From: QuickSilver <quick...@skuz.net>
To: st...@cotse.com
> Seems to me that crap comes from both the pro-frog crowd and the
> anti-frog crowd.
Hi Steve,
I was going to post this to the group, but could not seem to find the
right words. I decided instead to send it privately, not wishing to
make things worse for you.
It is unfortunate for you that you have been drawn into this mess. You
have every right and reason to require your users to stay within the
bounds of your TOS. However, your statement above disturbs me. It
doesn't relate to your TOS. I have never seen you post a kind word
toward any named individual who has been under attack for trying to
bring some integrity back to this group. I noticed you said once that
you don't follow this group so much because of the flooding. Is that
the solution you suggest for all of us--go away because of the
flooding? I should I go away bacause of the slander committed against
me?
Do you consider the Boston Tea Party to be crap :) How about the
Federalist Papers :)
Regards,
Richard
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QuickSilver
Richard
Hi Steve,
Richard
Hi Steve,
Regards,
Richard
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Anon
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
[snip excellent explanation of the current sorry state of affairs in apas]
Well done Richard, I think you put that more eloquently than any of us could
have. We are going through a very difficult period here in apas and I think
you have hit the nail RIGHT on the head Re: Bluejay and Steve's behaviour
towards Bluejay.
Please continue to post such stabilized points of view as I think some of us
here are just a bit too worked up over the whole ordeal to post rationally
responses.
lcs Mixmaster Remailer
Great, Richard
We already knew that you still supported Bluejay after everybody else
had understood what a piece of shit it was.
Today, you busted yourself as a person advocating apas flooding and
counterflooding to play your little power games.
You finish the day talking to yourself and self-congratulating, as so
often.
You nailed your own coffin from the inside.
The 4 years of trolling, flooding and intimidation you imposed on apas
are gone.
Bye.
Anon
wrote:
<Yawn>
Goodnight Toad!!!!
Anonymous
monster himself. And when you stare too long into the abyss, the abyss
stares back into you." -- Frederick Nietzsche
Words to keep in mind.
Anonymous
>Is this the Frog header that has everyone up in arms?
>X-Remailer-Contact: http://80.65.224.85/POL/ In case my abuse address is
>unreachable: It is because it has been flooded by <m...@uiuc.edu>, please
>contact <ab...@uiuc.edu>
>If so, it may be justly deserved. In the US, flooding a website where it
>inhibits the site operation is considered a DoS attack (Denial of Service)
>and is a punishable offense under US laws. Since the Frog site is non
>commercial, and lawyers to file suit do not come cheap especially when an
>international incident is involved, this may be a good means to stop the
>attack.
You stupid fucking dipshit. The guy wrote a few abuse complaints, maybe 20
in all. This isn't a "flood," you retard. He made these complaints literally months
ago. Frog has been flooding him for months, because he dared to complain
about abuse from Frog.
Moron.
Nomen Nescio
wrote:
20 complaints? How do you know? First you said 6, then 12, now 20.
How do you know that Frog is flooding Gardner? Are you Gardner?
Since Frog-Admin said that his goal was to have Michael Gardner fired,
methink it's pretty nice from FA to offer MG a lifetime position as
scarecrow. No one deserves the job better than Gardner does, and he is
performing well as nobody was reported flooding Frog-Abuse any more.
Stephen K. Gielda
nob...@dizum.com says...
It doesn't matter. It really doesn't, the end effect of adding that to
the headers can only result in one thing: Giving those against
remailers ammunition and something to point at. It cannot accomplish
anything else. The people complaining about abuse are not going to go
"Oh my! Frog admin did not respond because of this guy, that bastard,
I'm going to now complaint to that edu address." No, they are already
angry and normal human nature will then go "They don't respond to abuse
issues, they even have someone else's address in there, this proves that
remailers are nothing but a hose for abuse, shut them down, filter them,
do something". What's being filtered first? The mail2news gates, there
aren't many of those and it affects every remailer usenet user.
Those filters are going in place now. If remailers want a usenet
existance and do not want to be filtered by every major NSP. Something
must be done. The present course must change. They must make an effort
to demonstrate that they are not just hoses for abuse. There are free
speech advocates in the usenet admin sector. They do understand people
deliberately attacking by using for abuse. But they can't tell recently
because it seems like all sides are doing it and I know they each have
valid reasons for doing it. But it has to stop, it's combined effect
only leads one way.
I can certainly understand why frog may want to do it if m. gardner was
an abusive complainer. Abusive complainers do exist and pretty much
every service has met them, just read the abuse groups and you'll see
them. Even the biggest NSP's have met them. But responding to them in
such a manner can only yield one result. Just look at this result.
Many remailers blocking Frog, 1000's of article floods, posts following
up such posts doubling the floods, and big usenet services filtering
remailers. Who is losing here? Only remailers and remailer users, it's
only hurting them.
Present behavior will not change that, frog, please think about it, I
can tell from what you've done that you are not an unintelligent person.
You have to see that it's only damaging and has no positive effect. And
the people flooding and forging, you simply must be out to destroy the
remailers. There is nothing else that can possibly be accomplished with
that behavior. If you aren't and have some other purpose, think about
it, all that is being accomplished is to double the flooding. Yes, the
people really out to kill the remailers will continue anyway if you
stop, but they'll be more obvious and it won't just look like some
massive flamewar.
/steve
--
Check out Cotse's Privacy Watch.
A comprehensive information resource.
http://www.cotse.net/privacy/
Nomen Nescio
About Frog's abuse
>Present behavior will not change that, frog, please think about it, I
>can tell from what you've done that you are not an unintelligent person.
Maybe he's not unintelligent, but that's not the point. He operates on pure
malice and hate.
>You have to see that it's only damaging and has no positive effect.
He doesn't care. He wants to have a negative effect. That's his only goal.
He's a psychopath.
>And
>the people flooding and forging, you simply must be out to destroy the
>remailers.
That's right. That's what he wants to do. He wanted to rule over them like
a little god, but since he can't have that, he now wants to destroy them.
Some people are just no good. Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Frog.
They are vicious psychotics with no redeeming features whose crimes
must be put to a permanent end.
>There is nothing else that can possibly be accomplished with
>that behavior. If you aren't and have some other purpose, think about
>it, all that is being accomplished is to double the flooding. Yes, the
>people really out to kill the remailers will continue anyway if you
>stop, but they'll be more obvious and it won't just look like some
>massive flamewar.
That's the whole point. He's an evil psychotic. That's all there is
to say about Frog. The sooner he's put back behind bars, the better
everything will be.
George Orwell
You are a liar sir. There has never been a case of thousands of
flood messages being followedup and thereby doubling the flood.
That has never happened. We tell frog to eat shit and die and
you call us flooders. We are not abusers.
Frog-Admin
Not exactly:
mgc.edu will be removed from headers when Gardner is fired.
Hence, he will lose both "jobs" at the same time.
The "Gardner" page relating:
- - the initial abuse (flooding my abuse address)
- - the probable continued abuse (design abuse in rec.air.travel ....)
will remain up forever, though
>No one deserves the job better than Gardner does, and he is
>performing well as nobody was reported flooding Frog-Abuse any more.
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Stephen K. Gielda
Hash: SHA1
In article <3C4O1N1L3795...@Gilgamesh-frog.org>, Anonymous-
Rema...@See.Comment.Header says...
>
> Not exactly:
> mgc.edu will be removed from headers when Gardner is fired.
> Hence, he will lose both "jobs" at the same time.
> The "Gardner" page relating:
> - - the initial abuse (flooding my abuse address)
> - - the probable continued abuse (design abuse in rec.air.travel ....)
> will remain up forever, though
So you really don't have an issue with problems of a proper abuse
address that can handle the flooding and other abuse and it really does
have everything to do with only doing it because you desire to use your
remailer as a weapon. The problem is that if gardner hasn't been fired
by now he's not going to and the only result of the above action left is
the one damaging the remailer system.
It's interesting to hear in your own words that the state of the
remailer system and people's impressions of it are of no concern to you.
/steve
- --
Check out Cotse's Privacy Watch.
A comprehensive information resource.
http://www.cotse.net/privacy/
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