> As I write this I am listening to CNN and hearing the sound of a large
> metropolitan city being bombed by the USA. They are saying that the
> bombing is expected to go on for 3 or more days.
> I can't hear the screams of the men women and children who live in this
> city. Maybe Disney (time-warner-cnn) or the millitary.is censoring all
> of that.
> The last time the US did this it caused the deaths of 10's of thousands
> in Baghdad, Stay tuned for more.
> don wheeler-mings
My question is why ?
My protest is the same as it has been since the the 1960's
How do you feel ?
PS,
If any of you object to me posting this kind of off subject message in this
group like you did last time, I want to tell you in advance to go and fuck
your self in your narrow little facist minds.
don wheeler-mings
leonides
Fascinating that the issues of war and death should be too heavy for
surrealists. But not surprising. As pointed out in my first series of
posts most "rebels" seek a safe little haven of topics and issues.
Thus Dale reduces "buttons" (an admittedly unoriginal term which simply
refers to symbols and symbol sets which can evoke feelings including the
erotic (Freudian power)) to those little irritants that he practices so
intensely on Nik. And similarly reduces the notion of wandering Usenet
artists (using mind control as one of their themes) to an experiment in
mind control though my first posts said this was clearly fictional, a
prop designed to force people to think about how they respond to
messages.
Incidently Dale there is no (known) "Mistress Neutopia" Perhaps you
mean Doctress Neutopia. If not you've picked up a teaser and believe me
these people can be rather effective and you are drearily predictable
and easy to rouse. So be careful out there.
Andrea Chen's hand reaching for Nik's Mock Daddy.
Totalitarian tart...
"Mistress Neutopia"...
Wow...
It just snuck in under the wire, but that is without a
doubt *the* single most mind-blowing concept, or phrase,
or button, or what-have-you, of the year 1998.
"Mistress Neutopia"...
Wow...
Scans likes a bat out of hell, don't it? And the
consonance just melts in your mouth. All those
lovely "esses...."
Cocteau would have loved this one--the mysterious
figure of "Mistress Neutopia", all symbols to all
beings, receding, ever receding into an endless
universe of mirrors.
"Mistress Neutopia"...
Wow...
See, it's so cool because it puts *back* that little
element of seduction that's missing from the
"Doctress Neutopia" construct. The truth *should*
be seductive, and should come in more than one
guise, sometimes as Doctress, but oft as Mistress,
lest it become familiar and wearisome.
The owl of Athena flew at dusk. So will Doctress
become Mistress when the sunlight begins to fail.
Wow.
-- Bill Cleere
Thank you, Leo. A noble thought for a night on which
one is ashamed of one's own country.
-- Bill Cleere
> > Incidently Dale there is no (known) "Mistress Neutopia"
>
Maybe so, but (of course) there is no (known) "Andrea Chen"
Maybe the secret's contained in an anagram?
Andrea Chen = near dachau
(oh! no "U' in you and we're missing "en"! No matter; it's a
perfect fit)
Bill Cleere wrote:
>Thank you, Leo. A noble thought for a night on which one is ashamed of one's
own >country.
I've been ashamed of mine for years, and even in the full daylight.
DMH
There's a guy on another newsgroup who has an obsession
with anagramming. He's really quite brilliant, but
is on a mad course to self-destruction because he can't
look at himself honestly, and can't shut his stupid
fucking mouth to save his life.
Sad...
-- Bill Cleere
Brandon:
Actually, Chen is member of the Nuetopians and follows a dictator known as
Libby Hubbard, so calling her a fascist isn't exactly off base.
Rubbish. As the being who *first* brought the Doctress
Neutopia FAQ to a yearning world [note 1], or at least a
yearning Usenet, I can attest that Libby Hubbard is a lot
of things, but a Fascist ain't one of them, and Andrea Chen
is no follower of hers anyway.
Brandon, seriously...When did Surrealism become all snotty
and bogus? I mean, what is *up* with this shit you guys
do? It's way boring and lame, if you want to know the
truth, and I'm sure you're capable of better.
[1] http://www.netizen.org/Howling/Kooks/Neutopia/neutop2.faq
-- Bill Cleere
Wound up a little tight, aren't you? Breton used anagrams to do pretty
much the
same thing to Salvador Dali, so it has its pedigree. I seriously don't
know why I can't
cal someone a nazi if I feel a need to. Others feel no compunction at
flinging names
with even less cleverness. Anyway I used the more general (and more
widely-applicable) term "fascist". From what I've read it is quite
appropriate, and none of Andrea's
machinations to explain how a program of "pushing people's buttons" to
get them to crash can really explain away the fact that it is a program
of manipulation and superiority aimed at some pathetic cyber-domination.
At least the Nazis took over actual space!
The combination of the extra letter "U" and the excluded letters "E"
and "N" give us "NEU" as in neu neu neu neu neutopia.
As you can see, though, I am not obsessed with anagrams or any other
game, and I do know when to shut my
Won't he be jealous when Andrea Chen and I get married and give birth to
mutant goldfish? Our pictures will be in all the magazines, along with
Aquarium Weekly.
Nik
--
"It could be a total disaster, but it could also be the next
best thing to killing and eating a real angel."
--Bill Cleere
Bill:
This has been clearly explained to them several times. It was in that
set of early posts on aps. You recall the sequence that left them
baffled? Where I explained the concept of "buttons" was simply sets of
symbols that evoked certain reactions (eg. such "alien abduction"
leading to comments on "anal probes") and that it was interesting to
study these developments, document them and illustrate them.
Now recall how "Dale" responded with a post comparing me to a
scientologist, of forcing women and children out of their homes etc.
I calmly pointed out that the terms he used were buttons, at which
point he accused me of having a hussy fit.
You were (I recall) in a bit of awe.
This is a further example of what I mean. These individuals can't see
past the "button" of "Doctress Neuopia" (the fascist dictator (Godwin's
law coming into play)) and no matter what it said, no matter what is
shown; they are locked into these rather surrealist perceptions.
Obviously the neu neutopian prop (button) of pretending to control
minds is very effective and if you study those earlier posts and the
*examples* of the kind of reality distortions which occur and the
responses to them you will find them a bit too accurate for my tastes
(even my sick humor) though these had been listed as *examples* of what
had happened in other groups to show the "surrealists" what a powerful
medium this is. But in fact they came a fairly accurate *prediction* of
the response.
It reminds me of the description of a troll followed by "troll begins
here" and the huge response to the troll which completely ignored the
description. It's scary.
The really scary thing is that I can write this, the people in question
can read it and they will still believe that I'm goose stepping after
mein Doctress Libby. Pretty soon we'll get reports that I'm taking
control of their minds in their dreams.
Why do these things always happen to me? I try to explain a somewhat
interesting artistic experiment and next thing I know I've got a bunch
of pompous bozos acting the whole thing out. Brandon, Dale; PLEASE tell
me you're trolling. PLEASE!
Dear Underrenal,
You can "explain" anything you want (it's your right as a mental patient), but
those of us in charge of keeping you away from the scissors and glue know better
than to trust you with reason.
By the way stupid; I didn't compare you to a scientologist, since your letter to me
did not allign your worthless mind with neu neutopia as of yet. I compared neu
neutopia to scientologists, and you took it personally. In other words, it was your
buttons that were pushed, and they were self-pushed by your own aggressive
ignorance. You've been pushing them for yourself ever since, like that monkey they
head-wired to masturbate continually.
Whatever you do, my little machine, don't stain the mental ward furniture, or we'll
make you pay for it.
DMH
Joe
--
_____________________________0__________)___________________________________
--Personally, I don't know what precisely anyone means by "the truth", for example.
-- And whatever happened, it took place some considerable
time before I ever got on this newsgroup.
"The Moderators"
I was? Of what? (I don't say I wasn't--it's just this
memory thing.)
Anyway, I remember it the way you say, but I have to admit
I didn't pay much attention because, to be honest,
there's *nothing* happening here. The negative responses
are just that, negative, without any fructifying elements.
Honest anger can lead to creativity, and wildly
extravagant replies, even if without merit in themselves,
can provoke and enlarge the perspective of others.
Nothing illustrates that better than the initial impact
of Doctress Neutopia herself.
But brattiness is really good for nothing.
> This is a further example of what I mean. These individuals can't see
> past the "button" of "Doctress Neuopia" (the fascist dictator (Godwin's
> law coming into play)) and no matter what it said, no matter what is
> shown; they are locked into these rather surrealist perceptions.
>
> Obviously the neu neutopian prop (button) of pretending to control
> minds is very effective and if you study those earlier posts and the
> *examples* of the kind of reality distortions which occur and the
> responses to them you will find them a bit too accurate for my tastes
> (even my sick humor) though these had been listed as *examples* of what
> had happened in other groups to show the "surrealists" what a powerful
> medium this is. But in fact they came a fairly accurate *prediction* of
> the response.
The response to the "I will control your minds" troll which
makes most sense to me if that of the flame groups. They
go, "We'll *let* if you do it you give us such and such
[followed by requests for pornography and whatnot]." That to me
indicates that they are actually *listening*, and considering
the thing for what it is, rather than applying sterile pre-
packaged categories, such as Brandon pointing out that, while
neu neutopianism has certain acceptable features, it also
contains "incompatibilities" which must be rejected.
I mean, "academic surrealism"? Come on! I know that we
live in the age of the oxymoron, but I would have hoped not
to have seen that one.
"All right, class, put away the stink bombs and stop
passing around 'Exquisite Corpses'. Open to page 324
of your textbooks, and we will being to memorize those
categories which have officially been recognized as
compatible with surrealism."
> It reminds me of the description of a troll followed by "troll begins
> here" and the huge response to the troll which completely ignored the
> description. It's scary.
>
> The really scary thing is that I can write this, the people in question
> can read it and they will still believe that I'm goose stepping after
> mein Doctress Libby. Pretty soon we'll get reports that I'm taking
> control of their minds in their dreams.
The flonks are a little put out because they deposed their own
leader for the sole purpose of having you take control of
their dreams, but you biffed off while they weren't looking.
> Why do these things always happen to me? I try to explain a somewhat
> interesting artistic experiment and next thing I know I've got a bunch
> of pompous bozos acting the whole thing out. Brandon, Dale; PLEASE tell
> me you're trolling. PLEASE!
I told you. They're just brats.
-- Bill Cleere
Status: res. LoyolaNet. Expect.destin. Fumat pro Soc.
*I*?
Heavens, no.
Tired and discouraged is more like it. Believe me,
I'd *welcome* the opportunity to work up a proper
indignatory froth.
> Breton used anagrams to do pretty
> much the
> same thing to Salvador Dali, so it has its pedigree. I seriously don't
> know why I can't
> cal someone a nazi if I feel a need to. Others feel no compunction at
> flinging names
> with even less cleverness.
I don't see how you much more unoriginal than Nazi.
The only time it's worth any style points it when you
stick at somebody on a *completely* irrelevant point,
as, for example:
> I'm getting serious about training for the 10K race
Race!
Racist!
Nazi!
I win...
> Anyway I used the more general (and more
> widely-applicable) term "fascist". From what I've read it is quite
> appropriate, and none of Andrea's
> machinations to explain how a program of "pushing people's buttons" to
> get them to crash
Not to "crash", but to *thrive* and *take wing*.
> can really explain away the fact that it is a program
> of manipulation and superiority aimed at some pathetic cyber-domination.
> At least the Nazis took over actual space!
>
> The combination of the extra letter "U" and the excluded letters "E"
> and "N" give us "NEU" as in neu neu neu neu neutopia.
>
> As you can see, though, I am not obsessed with anagrams or any other
> game, and I do know when to shut my
That, at any rate, speaks well of you.
-- Bill Cleere
> > If any of you object
> I want to tell you in advance .
Boys, boys, boys,
Your futile struggles only serve to tighten the straps on the miniature straight
jackets you wear as thinking caps.
> Fascinating that the issues of war and death should be too heavy for surrealists.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is
for good men to do nothing. "
- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
> But not surprising.
WHERE
O That I was where I would be,
Then would I be where I am not.
But where I am I must be,
And where I would be I cannot.
-- Mother Goose
> "buttons" (an admittedly unoriginal term which simply refers to symbols and
> symbol sets which can evoke feelings including the erotic
Madame Chen Chi-Ciao merely wishes to pick the locks of your shackles with the 9
inch stiletto heels of her velvet boots.
> those little irritants he practices
> intensely on Nik an experiment in
> mind control said this was clearly fictional,
“The Don Juan of knowledge [...] He does not love the things he knows, but has
spirit and appetite for the chase and intrigues of knowledge! - until at last there
remains for him nothing left of knowledge to hunt down except the absolutely
detrimental; he is like the drunkard who ends up drinking absinthe and aqua fortis.
Thus in the end he lusts after Hell - it is the last knowledge that seduces him.
And it too proves a disillusionment, like all knowledge! [...] for the whole
universe has not a single crumb left to this hungry man.”
(Friedrich Nietzsche)
> a prop designed to force people to think about how they respond to
"If men were ever to lose the appetite for
meaning we call thinking, they would lose the
capacity for asking all the unanswerable
questions upon which every civilization is
founded."
Hannah Arendt (1906-1975)
> and believe me
> these people can be rather effective
"I want everything to be explained to me or
nothing. … reason is impotent when it hears this
cry from the heart. … The absurd is born of this
confrontation between the human need and the
unreasonable silence of the world."
Albert Camus (1913-1960)
> and you are drearily predictable
> and easy to rouse
"I think it would be a good idea. "
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948), when asked
what he thought of Western civilization
> . So be careful out there.
"Being on the tightrope is living; everything else is
waiting. "
- Karl Wallenda
Excuse me, But is that my eye that is hurting your elbow ?
don............................
free us from our liberators
true freedom can't be granted
or even inherited
It must always be fought for
generation after generation
moment after moment
But I know you already knew that Leo.
don........
> don........
>
plesa-shackles?
figments
fight?
necessary
memory?
faulty
remind remind remind
RACK that guy!
That was the huge post of the day...nice job, Don.
Very good take.
-- Bill Cleere
> it was interesting to study these developments, document
> them and illustrate them.
I know I'm over eager but Walden books has refused to forward me your
disertation. All my friends are chattering and I feel left out.
Not complaining just complaining.
Bart Frank
be afwaid-be vewry afwaid
Coincidence, *again*...
[Andrea, I apologize for going off on a tangent on this
post, but you know how it is with "coincidences 'r us"]
Extraordinary phrase, "bundle of sticks". I guess that's
what the fasces are, all right, but it immediately brings
to mind the I Ching, with its casting of sticks. And
that brings to mind Philip K. Dick's great book "The Man
in the High Castle", set in an alternate future in which
the Fascists have won World War II and occupied the U.S.
The Pacific Coast, where the story is set, is under the
control of the Japanese, and among the elements of
Japanese culture which have come into use by Americans,
the I Ching is predominant. The whole story revolves
around casting the sticks, and apparently Dick himself
used them to help develop the plot.
There's a thread about this book going on in alt.books.
phil-k-dick as we speak.
-- Bill Cleere
:)One can troll, and not know one is trolling.
no, one cannot.
those who troll know they are trolling, although they
might not know the terminology.
unfortunately, too many people think "troll" means
"flame bait"... or think that "trolling" means "writing
something I hate and want to attack". IF this false
definition were the true one, then yes, people can troll
(flame bait) without realizing they are trolling, since
no statement, no matter how innocent, can be guaranteed
to be uncontroversial.
however, a troll is a carefully-designed statement or
series of statements that looks like an *obvious* joke
to one group (the audience) but like a *serious* but
grossly inaccurate claim to another group (the victim).
Andrea Chen's posts in alt.surrealism, however, are not
trolls, but metatrolls. and the fish are still biting.
--
so long as the clock ticks, our blood remains frozen.
His Most Feathered Eminence, the Ur-Beatle
Talysman wrote:
> in a maze, I beheld re...@usl.edu (Joe Riehl) write in alt.surrealism:
>
> :)One can troll, and not know one is trolling.
>
> no, one cannot.
no, but two can, and tango, too, Mr Talysman, tally me banana.
also, as with everything you fail to listen to yourself say,
how do you know?
oh, you don't know?
then why do you try to act like you know?
oh, you can't help it ...
never mind, then ...
>
> IF this false
> definition were the true one, then yes, people can troll
> (flame bait) without realizing they are trolling, since
> no statement, no matter how innocent, can be guaranteed
> to be uncontroversial.
And just what the HELL are you trying to say there, Mister
Talysman, if that *is* your real name? You're probably just
saying that cause your girlfriend can't [blocked by SurfWatch],
and you know I'm right, too!!!1!
Aaron I. "Got a 26-inch [blocked by Surfwatch]" Allensworth
--
"And your point, if you have one?"
4ND B3 5UR3 T0 V151T MY W3BP4G3!!!! 4 3L33+ #4(K3RZ 0NLY,
D00D!!!
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
OH GREAT!!!
now WebTeeVee-ers think they can ridicule me!
WebTV must have added a "followup one of the Ur-
Beatle's posts and pretend you know what's going
on" button to one of their webpages. I'm honored!
:)Talysman wrote:
:)> in a maze, I beheld re...@usl.edu (Joe Riehl) write in alt.surrealism:
:)> :)One can troll, and not know one is trolling.
:)> no, one cannot.
:)no, but two can, and tango, too, Mr Talysman, tally me banana.
:)also, as with everything you fail to listen to yourself say,
:)how do you know?
Kibo told me so.
oh, and also: I looked it up.
it's funny. I get the feeling this dingbat posted
merely to take up space and/or try out some exciting
new attempts at english grammar. it's obvious here
that Ms. Helena Blavatsky Fante doesn't know what
I'm talking about about.
of course, this means that my previous post was an
unintentional *meta*troll ... experimental proof that
one can metatroll, and not know one is metatrolling.
but ONLY one can, and I AM THAT ONE!
--
dogs of flesh and semen hunt in humanity's night.
In a sense, every post is to some extent a troll, for there is nothing
of less worth than an unresponded-to post.
- Gerry
----------------------------------------------------------
ger...@indigo.ie (Gerry Quinn)
----------------------------------------------------------
Why's that? A piece of RAB folk-wisdom says that some of the best
posts go without a reply. I agree with the RABble. Sure, there's
something to be said for provoking dialogue -- but a good post may also
provoke silence.
-- Moggin
> in a maze, I beheld re...@usl.edu (Joe Riehl) write in alt.surrealism:
>
> :)One can troll, and not know one is trolling.
>
> no, one cannot.
H.B. Fante wrote:
no, but two can, and tango, too, Mr Talysman, tally me banana.
also, as with everything you fail to listen to yourself say,
how do you know?
oh, you don't know?
then why do you try to act like you know?
oh, you can't help it ...
never mind, then ...
the Ur-Beatle (another of Talysman's bottomless pit of genius pseudonyms?)
screamed:
> OH GREAT!!!
>
> now WebTeeVee-ers think they can ridicule me!
> WebTV must have added a "here is another of the Ur-
> Beatle's ur-posts, so respond to him because he is lonely
> in the home" button to one of their webpages. I'm honored!
>
> :)Talysman wrote:
>
> :)> in a maze, I beheld re...@usl.edu (Joe Riehl) write in alt.surrealism:
>
> :)> :)One can troll, and not know one is trolling.
>
> :)> no, one cannot.
>
> :)no, but two can, and tango, too, Mr Talysman, tally me banana.
>
> :)also, as with everything you fail to listen to yourself say,
> :)how do you know?
>
> Kibo told me so.
now if you would only stay this sweet
> oh, and also: I looked it up.
still sweet
> it's funny. I get the feeling this dingbat
dingbat. not sweet. oh, you mean kibo.
> posted merely to take up space and/or try out some exciting
> new attempts at english grammar.
equivocator. which is it
> it's obvious here
> that Ms. Helena Blavatsky Fante doesn't know what
> I'm talking about about.
what you are talking about about?
> of course, this means that my previous post was an
> unintentional *meta*troll ... experimental proof that
> one can metatroll, and not know one is metatrolling.
precisely--as i said previously when you had your tongue sticking out the
corner of your mouth thinking of your response instead of listening to what
you were reading---two can troll, and not know one is trolling. you say
"unintentional" because one of you does not know, but the other does,
experimenting, metatrolling, ur-meta-menting
>
>
> but ONLY one can, and I AM THAT ONE!
if you really believed that, you wouldn't need to scream
>
>
What nonsense! Posting is its own reward.
--
Yours, J. H. McCloskey
=== ... sobie spiewam a Muzom ... ===