Music
Van Piercy
In article <hewins-2104...@206.67.5.188>,
Dan Hewins <hew...@cec.wustl.edu> wrote:
>What are your thoughts on what makes postmodern music?
>I have heard that John Zorn is referred to as postmodern.
I have heard the label bandied about shamelessly far and wide. What
exactly is supposed to make music postmodern as opposed to modern? I'd
like to open that question a little here.
Music critics will sometimes talk about music as postmodern that combines
styles, that, for example, integrates pop music with chamber music, e.g.,
Kronos Quartet doing "Purple Haze." Would that be a sensibility that
follows logically as well as chronologically after a modernist
moment--after, say, Schoenberg? Because then Kronos will play something
by Bartok, Webern or Schoenberg. Does Kronos display a postmodern ear in
its commercialism, in its effort at broadening the appeal of chamber music
instruments and sounds?
Is it that eclectic taste in music that is or should be considered
postmodern? How about when Kronos plays Bill Evans' stuff? Or how about
when Terry Riley integrates themes from Indian music and scale and
(a)harmonics? Is it that use of non-western traditional music systems
that seems to bespeak a postmodernist move? What then, to move to another
form, would the impressionists inspired by Japanese woodblock prints, or
the cubists inspired by African sculpture--what then would those typically
"modernist" moments be if not postmodern?
Where is that post anyway?
Van
--
"The scientist has no unique right to ignore the likely consequences of
what he does." --Noam Chomsky. _The Chomsky Reader_. Ed. James Peck. New
York: Pantheon, 1987. 201.
sayan bhattacharyya
Van Piercy <vpi...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>Or how about
>when Terry Riley integrates themes from Indian music and scale and
>(a)harmonics? Is it that use of non-western traditional music systems
>that seems to bespeak a postmodernist move?
For the non-west, what then is a post-modernist move? For a musician
from India, what would be a post-modernist move? Integrating themes
from western music?
G*rd*n
Van Piercy <vpi...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
| >Or how about
| >when Terry Riley integrates themes from Indian music and scale and
| >(a)harmonics? Is it that use of non-western traditional music systems
| >that seems to bespeak a postmodernist move?
bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya):
| For the non-west, what then is a post-modernist move? For a musician
| from India, what would be a post-modernist move? Integrating themes
| from western music?
Does Indian culture recognize a distinct "modern" period,
the way the West does? I had the idea it was thought of as
having a more continuous development, instead of segments
separated by earth-scorching revolutions.
--
}"{ G*rd*n }"{ g...@panix.com }"{
-----------------------------------------------
NOTE: if your ISP permits junkmailing, you will
probably not be able to reach me by email.
-Mammel,L.H.
In article <5jgvq5$mgg$1...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>,
Van Piercy <vpi...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>In article <hewins-2104...@206.67.5.188>,
>Dan Hewins <hew...@cec.wustl.edu> wrote:
>>What are your thoughts on what makes postmodern music?
>>I have heard that John Zorn is referred to as postmodern.
>
>I have heard the label bandied about shamelessly far and wide. What
>exactly is supposed to make music postmodern as opposed to modern? I'd
>like to open that question a little here.
I would say Milli Vanilli, on the grounds that it is excluded,
and yet it won a Grammy. Perfect! Letterman introduced a line
of athletic dolls once: "Banned for life", including Pete Rose
and others whom I forget.
Note also Andy Warhol used to have a stand-in do his lectures
for him. This was actually a form of art, I believe.
Lew Mammel, Jr.
david skreiner
Dan Hewins wrote:
>
> What are your thoughts on what makes postmodern music?
> I have heard that John Zorn is referred to as postmodern.
AFAIK, music would be PoMo if it uses some of
these techniques used in postmodernism - meta-
fiction, destroying the aesthetic illusion,
making the reception of the work a topic,
intertextuality, and so on.
Referring to other pieces of work, quoting or distorting
them: John Zorn does that a lot, especially in those
songs where he keeps switching styles (country to
hardcore to jazz, all in one song).
Turning the reception of the work into a topic of that
work - common in PoMo literature, sounds impossible in
music. I've been wondering whether the Butthole Surfers'
piece "Chewing George Lucas Chocolate" (.wav available on
http://www.buttholesurfers.com/ , sorry for the plug)
can be said to be postmodernist: It has a low-quality
20-second bit of one of their songs, a quick heated
discussion, a surprise gag... and on the CD, it is followed
by the "real" song, the one quoted at the beginning
of "chewing..." (called "Goofy's Concern"). I'd argue
that if it does thematize (germanism?) the reception
of the song, or make fun of the listener, it might
be PoMo.
Ween also do weird things: Apart from "deconstructing"
(?) songs (some start out as normal pop-like songs, then
get more and more "noise" in them until no remnants of
melody remains, for example "And Now I'm Freaking Out",
they also made a rather strange album called "Twelve
Golden Country Greats". Ten songs on it, the music style
is quite definitely Country-based, but the songs have
strange lyrics and titles like "Help Me Scrape The Mucus
Off My Brain", "Japanese Cowboy" or "Piss Up A Rope".
Parody? Nah, not really. Pastiche, parody without humour?
Maybe, but that'd be slightly PoMo again...
dave
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
da...@htu.tu-graz.ac.at David Skreiner
King Matthew A
sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
: For the non-west, what then is a post-modernist move? For a musician
: from India, what would be a post-modernist move? Integrating themes
: from western music?
Seeing as "post-modernism" refers to what comes after _Western_ modernism
(I don't know whether there's any other kind), I don't think it's possible
for a musician in the Indian tradition to make a "post-modernist move".
sayan bhattacharyya
I notice that no one has answered my question.
sayan bhattacharyya <bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu> wrote:
>Van Piercy <vpi...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>>Or how about
>>when Terry Riley integrates themes from Indian music and scale and
>>(a)harmonics? Is it that use of non-western traditional music systems
>>that seems to bespeak a postmodernist move?
>
david skreiner
King Matthew A wrote:
>
> sayan bhattacharyya (bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu) wrote:
> : For the non-west, what then is a post-modernist move? For a musician
> : from India, what would be a post-modernist move? Integrating themes
> : from western music?
>
> Seeing as "post-modernism" refers to what comes after _Western_ modernism
> (I don't know whether there's any other kind), I don't think it's possible
> for a musician in the Indian tradition to make a "post-modernist move".
Why not? If postmodernism is a deeply ideological idea, changing
the ways in which we make sense of the world...
and if postmodernist thinking embraces experimentation, inter-
textuality, the mixing of genres, quoting and playing with
styles and genres...
then why shouldn't experimentation in Indian music be something
like an Indian brand of PoMo?
Van Piercy
In article <5kif2r$suk$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu>,
sayan bhattacharyya <bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu> wrote:
>I notice that no one has answered my question.
I thought I had given an answer.
----
#From vpi...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Apr 26 13:06:29 EST 1997
#Article: 45614 of alt.postmodern
#Newsgroups: alt.postmodern
#Subject: Re: Music
In article <5js95t$31f$1...@news.eecs.umich.edu>,
sayan bhattacharyya <bhat...@skynet.eecs.umich.edu> wrote:
>Van Piercy <vpi...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>>Or how about
>>when Terry Riley integrates themes from Indian music and scale and
>>(a)harmonics? Is it that use of non-western traditional music systems
>>that seems to bespeak a postmodernist move?
>
>For the non-west, what then is a post-modernist move? For a musician
>from India, what would be a post-modernist move? Integrating themes
>from western music?
[Van wrote:]
"Yes," would seem the short answer to the last question.
[...]
A non-western modernity would still be western in the sense that it would
not be possible without the west.
[...]
It may not be immediately helpful then to say this but a non-western
postmodernism would have to be post-western as well.
-----
On this view, postmodernism is an effect and accomplice of postmodernity,
of global systems integration (or degradation, depending on your point of
view and philosophy of nature).