Existentialism v Nihilism
Gallagher Lawson
<gl>
Gallagher Lawson
James Whitehead
Lawson <gallaghe...@worldnet.att.net> writes
>What are the main differences between existentialism and nihilism?
><gl>
>
>
--
James Whitehead
Brad McCormick, Ed.D.
>
> What are the main differences between existentialism and nihilism?
> <gl>
In many cases, existentialism has been the
endeavor to find a critically defensible way
up and out of nihilism. Although, on the
other hand, existentialism has also endeavored
to thematize
what nihilism *is*, rather than just
unwittingly living nihilistically (e.g.,
being an Investment Banker or an Experimental
Psychologist).
\brad mccormick
--
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thes 5:21)
Brad McCormick, Ed.D. / bra...@cloud9.net
914.238.0788 / 27 Poillon Rd, Chappaqua, NY 10514-3403 USA
-------------------------------------------------------
<![%THINK;[XML]]> Visit my website: http://www.cloud9.net/~bradmcc/
WinnerEJ
>><gl>
>>
>>
>--
>James Whitehead
Part of the endeavor of existentialist philosophers has been to find a way out
of or around certain nihilistic propositions that are difficult to disprove but
impossible to live by. Thus existentialism positions itself against nihilism.
Mr. Whitehead is either unfamiliar with the major texts of existentialism or he
has dismissed the existentialist endeavor as unnecessary and perhaps even
silly. In which case he should say so; his glib comment is simply misleading.
- Winner
James Whitehead
WinnerEJ <winn...@aol.com> writes
Why should the existentialists *try* to do anything-
"find a way out" out of what? there is no escape .... (JPS)
the idea of endeavor - in the GRAND sense of the world seems
strangely romantic-
...and is existentialsm an understanding of some texts...
and not *being*....
wow....
get a life....
--
James Whitehead
Lewis Mammel
> Why should the existentialists *try* to do anything-
> "find a way out" out of what? there is no escape .... (JPS)
Just as men evidently feel that there is a
weight on their minds which wearies with its
oppression, if so they could also recognize from
what causes it comes, and what makes so great a
mountain of misery to lie on their hearts, they would
not so live their lives as now we generally see them do,
each ignorant what he wants, each seeking always to
change his place as if he could drop his burden.
Lucretius, De Rerum Natura, 3.1053
WinnerEJ
Reply:
A. Historically, Existentialism derives from Romanticism.
B. I have a life, and one that includes reading.
C. I prefer discussion to quarrelling
D. Your existence has ceased to be of interest to me, I sincerely it remains of
interest for yourself, no matter how ashoirt a time you spend on this planet.
WinnerEJ
Okay, i finally got the joke, ie., "nothing", and apologize for my snap at you.
However your reply to my missing the punchline was a little harsh.
As for reading the main texts - I do not see that negating living, I'm sorry,
reading is an activity and experience like any other. The Zen buddhists burn
their sutras - but only after having learned them by heart. - Winner
James Whitehead
WinnerEJ <winn...@aol.com> writes
>Further to James Whitehead:
>Okay, i finally got the joke, ie., "nothing", and apologize for my snap at you.
> However your reply to my missing the punchline was a little harsh.
then drinking wine is in the spirit of existentialism if not vital to it)
>As for reading the main texts - I do not see that negating living,
crazy things)
>I'm sorry,
>reading is an activity and experience like any other.
seems posited in the actual dirty business of living- and not just in a set
academic arguments- (I think the existentialist philosopher would
regard the librarian quite differently to how a logical positivist would)
> The Zen buddhists burn
>their sutras - but only after having learned them by heart. - Winner
Having learnt the sutras by heart the monk was no nearer enlightenment,
but did win a new car on a TV quiz show.
--
James Whitehead
Brad McCormick, Ed.D.
[snip]
> Having learnt the sutras by heart the monk was no nearer enlightenment,
> but did win a new car on a TV quiz show.
I have long believed that a good response for a Zen monk trainee
to the fatuous question the Senior Monk who asks: "What is the
sound of one hand clapping?" would be for the trainee to
take a sharp knife and chop off one
of the self-satisfied Senior Monk's hands, so that
the Senior Monk could learn the answer (might be the
first real thing the Senior Monk ever learned
in his life!).
Power and property can only be
justified as trusteeship.
"Enlightenment" is rarely what
the socially credentialled instructional
institution certifies it is.
The nihilism of most concern to most of
us is the "black hole" at the center of
our so-called society, which, among
other phenomena, brought us World Wars 1 and II,
etc. "Paths of glory lead but to
the grave" (See Kubrisk's movie "Paths
of Glory" -- there's real nihilism in action!)
Brad McCormick, Ed.D.
Sounds to me like a dictum which applies differently to
Donald Trump than to the person who cleans the Donald's
toilet. (There is a thoroughly repulsive essay espousing
this kind of "adaptation to life", by Karl Abarham, dated
1907, I believe -- Abraham was an early follower of Freud,
and also a medical doctor responsible for assessing
disability claims of Hungarian miners.)
G*rd*n
| > > Why should the existentialists *try* to do anything-
| > > "find a way out" out of what? there is no escape .... (JPS)
Lewis Mammel wrote:
| > Just as men evidently feel that there is a
| > weight on their minds which wearies with its
| > oppression, if so they could also recognize from
| > what causes it comes, and what makes so great a
| > mountain of misery to lie on their hearts, they would
| > not so live their lives as now we generally see them do,
| > each ignorant what he wants, each seeking always to
| > change his place as if he could drop his burden.
| >
| > Lucretius, De Rerum Natura, 3.1053
| Sounds to me like a dictum which applies differently to
| Donald Trump than to the person who cleans the Donald's
| toilet. (There is a thoroughly repulsive essay espousing
| this kind of "adaptation to life", by Karl Abarham, dated
| 1907, I believe -- Abraham was an early follower of Freud,
| and also a medical doctor responsible for assessing
| disability claims of Hungarian miners.)
Certainly, Lucretius was talking only about the upper classes
of his day. By the time we get to Henry "quiet desperation"
Thoreau, industrialism has made this sort of despair available
to a much wider population. A century later, they're
jammed into Paris cafes.
--
}"{ G*rd*n }"{ g...@panix.com }"{
{ http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 8/14 }
WinnerEJ
>to the fatuous question the Senior Monk who asks: "What is the
>sound of one hand clapping?" would be for the trainee to
>take a sharp knife and chop off one
>of the self-satisfied Senior Monk's hands,
>\brad mccormick
>
Actually, brad, I seem to recall reading that this did happen once around the
15th century Common Era ("AD"), and became a minor legend. I believe the
Senior monk retired, appointing the student in his place as master of the
monastary.
The reson the monks burn their sutras, BTW, is because, having gone through the
rigor of such training, they come to the realization that it was all a waste of
time, as far as their struggle for enlightnement is concerned. But that itself
is the message of the sutras, they are subversively undercoded by hints of
their own senselessness. One of the reasons I find Buddhism fascinating.
Reading cannot take the place of a "living" per se, but it can be a part of
living, an activity of living. I enjoy it, and can learn from it. And I never
bought into it on an institutional basis ( in fact as you are probably aware,
many academics don't read much beyond what they are required to comment on in
journal articles to secure tenure).
I think the conflict I had with James Whitehead on this thread was that we
had different understandings of the original question and the kind of
discussion it seemed to call for, and wrote at each other rather than
discussing, that was largely my fault, and I apologized and James did in his
own way too, so I hope all is well on that matter with James Whitehead, I am
at peace with it. - Winner
WinnerEJ
You're quite right about the nihilism of the present era and its depiction in
the Kubrick 's Paths of Glory - one of those films I can never forget but would
find it difficult sitting through again, and, yes, all too true.- Winner
Brad McCormick, Ed.D.
"If I had the power" I would require every manager to watch
"Paths of Glory" at least once a year, and I would require
it to be studied in MBA schools, etc.
I find it one of the truest things I have ever seen. I've never
worked in a place where I or my coworkers were fired on
from behind (although I've had some not very nice work
related experiences...), but I did have a manager once who
said that he "wanted to see asses and elbows!"
And there is a movie which is the antipode to "Paths of Glory":
Jean Renoir's "The Grand Illusion", the ending of which
is in my opinion one of the high achievements of culture: WWI.
Two escaped French POWs approach the Swiss border. The Germans
detect them, and take aim. But their officer tells his
men to hold their fire: "They're over the border. The war
is over for them And so much the better."
And, while we've on the subject of books and films. I find
the ending of Ingmar Bergman's "The Seventh Seal" to be a
beautiful statement of the *saving* potential of literacy:
The plague finally
arrives to the Knight's home. Unlike most of the
other persons there, the Knight's wife, Karin, is
literate: she has acquired the "technical
communication skill" to create, shape and maintain
conversational space, whereas the others use language,
but only with the naive immediacy of
primary, unreflected orality, of which they are mostly
unaware and cannot consciously deploy as a
resource for shaping their life. Death comes to the
door while the assembled persons are eating
dinner, with Karin reading to them from the Bible.
When Karin sees the new visitor at the door, she
calmly looks at him, and says: "You are welcome in
my house." By this gesture, I propose that this
woman who has just received her husband back from
many years' absence fighting a Crusade, and
told him how she wants to love and play, is not
saying she wants to die, but rather she is expressing
the fact that, in conversation, there is a place
for everything, even for dying [conversation's
negation...], when that cannot be avoided --
whereas, apart from conversation, the horrors of the
world can only overwhelm the disoriented animal
confronted by them, as most of the other
characters in Bergman's film, in one way or another,
"lose it" when Death approaches them.
Brad McCormick, Ed.D.
>
> >I have long believed that a good response for a Zen monk trainee
> >to the fatuous question the Senior Monk who asks: "What is the
> >sound of one hand clapping?" would be for the trainee to
> >take a sharp knife and chop off one
> >of the self-satisfied Senior Monk's hands,
>
> >\brad mccormick
> >
>
> Actually, brad, I seem to recall reading that this did happen once around the
> 15th century Common Era ("AD"), and became a minor legend. I believe the
> Senior monk retired, appointing the student in his place as master of the
> monastary.
This is the most intelligent behavior of a Zen monk I have
ever heard of. Got details?
Your story reminds me of Frank Lloyd Wright: He too once had an idea
which he later found out someone before him had had. At first he was
depressed. Then he realized that he had had his idea "from out of
himself", and felt good about himself again. I think I shall try to
react
to your news similarly.
> The reson the monks burn their sutras, BTW, is because, having gone through the
> rigor of such training, they come to the realization that it was all a waste of
> time, as far as their struggle for enlightnement is concerned. But that itself
> is the message of the sutras, they are subversively undercoded by hints of
> their own senselessness. One of the reasons I find Buddhism fascinating.
Sounds like we have a McLuhanesque problem here -- you know: "The Medium
is the Message". No matter what "truth" the sutras contain,
it sounds like the combination of that truth being *written in a
sutra* and the young person living in his (her?) ethnicity-of-origin
and then monastery rendered that content useless because the
book and the social order and the monastery all taught (Lawrence
Kohlberg's "hidden curriculum" again!) something else.
> Reading cannot take the place of a "living" per se, but it can be a part of
> living, an activity of living. I enjoy it, and can learn from it. And I never
> bought into it on an institutional basis ( in fact as you are probably aware,
> many academics don't read much beyond what they are required to comment on in
> journal articles to secure tenure).
Ah! More "the medium is the message"! The truth of the university, for
junior faculty, is "publish or perish" (well, it used to be -- for I
gather that now there are relatively few junior faculty, but lots
of "adjuncts": the industrial reserve army of the spirit).
My own relationship with books was deeply affected by reading
Hermann Broch's _The Sleepwalkers_: I was struck that some of the
words in this book were "what I would have written if I was who
I wished I was". It was a remarkable experience. Especially
remarkable after growing (but hardly "up"!) in a social milieu
of origin where there were few books and the ones there were were
mainly instruments for testing my ability to function as an
information storage and retrieval device.
[snip]
"Yours in discourse..." (Why do I always place this
in quotes? Because it was somebody else's email signoff,
and I don't wish to pretend to be its author, even
though much like it.)
James Whitehead
Ed.D." <bra...@cloud9.net> writes
>I have long believed that a good response for a Zen monk trainee
>to the fatuous question the Senior Monk who asks: "What is the
>sound of one hand clapping?" would be for the trainee to
>take a sharp knife and chop off one
>the Senior Monk could learn the answer (might be the
>first real thing the Senior Monk ever learned
>in his life!).
response to his questions that there was no virtue in good deeds and
that the holy scriptures were empty- that nothing was holy - retreated to
a cave and sat in meditation for nine years (china was not ready for
him!) Hui-ke visited him- but the master was unimpressed until Hui-ke
cut of his own right arm- at which point he became his teacher...
I cant help thinking about similarities between Buddhism and nihilism- it
seems to me that Gautama whilst waiting for enlightenment under the
bodhi tree realised the stupidity of his quest and smiling became
enlightened- its as if he sees the emptiness of existence and laughs-
rather than fall into the nihilist's despair- with this you could re-write
waiting for Godot with a much more positive outcome!....
and also Satre adopting Marxism - isn't this a sign of compassion?
I met a philosopher at Keele who held the view- that Buddhism offers a
'way out' of nihilist thought.
--
James Whitehead
Peter H.M. Brooks
winn...@aol.com "WinnerEJ" writes:
>Further to James Whitehead:
>Okay, i finally got the joke, ie., "nothing", and apologize for my snap at you.
> However your reply to my missing the punchline was a little harsh.
>
I think it was very kind. I have seldom seen a more obvious joke, to have
so little humour that you don't get it is quite a failing.
--
Peter H.M. Brooks
To be in process of change is not an evil, any more than to be the
product of change is a good.
- Marcus Aurelius.
Peter H.M. Brooks
bra...@cloud9.net "Brad McCormick, Ed.D." writes:
> James Whitehead wrote:
> [snip]
> > Having learnt the sutras by heart the monk was no nearer enlightenment,
> > but did win a new car on a TV quiz show.
>
> I have long believed that a good response for a Zen monk trainee
> to the fatuous question the Senior Monk who asks: "What is the
> sound of one hand clapping?" would be for the trainee to
> take a sharp knife and chop off one
> of the self-satisfied Senior Monk's hands, so that
> the Senior Monk could learn the answer (might be the
> first real thing the Senior Monk ever learned
> in his life!).
>
I have a much better and less painful answer. I can clap with one hand,
it is a technique I learned as a child - it pisses off the hey-wow rather
nicely when I do it.
G*rd*n
| ...
| I have a much better and less painful answer. I can clap with one hand,
| it is a technique I learned as a child - it pisses off the hey-wow rather
| nicely when I do it.
It is done in America by applying the heel of the hand sharply
to the forehead. Allegedly, its practitioners can be often
detected by their markedly sloped foreheads, and are often
said to be of an ethnicity, ancestry, or political party
different from those who make the observation and those to
whom the observation is made. An exception to the last may
sometimes occur in taverns with a highly informal atmosphere
as a preparation for vigorous exercise.
WinnerEJ
>'way out' of nihilist thought.
>
>--
>James Whitehead
Buddhism is certainly a workable alternative to Western Nihilism, since it
assumes that the questions nihilists believe they are answering (raised after
the "death of God", fall of Christendom) are irrelevant to the issues. Certain
Buddhist sects hold to what we would call a metaphysical nihilism, but they do
so as an eradication of the metaphysical problematic - if 'nothing' is
everything, why worry about it?
The Four-fold Truths the Buddha expounded after his own enlightenment are:
1. Life is disappointment (which can also be translated "suffering"); 2.
Disappointment arises from desire (and Buddhist philosophers have developed a
large textual archive of explanation of what precisely constitutes desire); 3.
There is a way not to be controlled by one's desire to the point of
disappointment ( this is a loose translation; some Buddhists tend toward
asceticism, others toward full enjoyment; I've tried to indicate the general
principle that all sects can agree to as an interpretation of the Buddha's
dictum); 4. The way to achieve this is the "Eighfold Path", which is a
prescription of discipline and practice leading to "enlightenment". I won't go
into this, as the Buddha defines it fairly loosely and its interpretation
differs radically from sect to sect.
The point here is that these truths are about human experience, and not
about human existence. Therefore the Western Nihilist dilemma - If nothing
matters, why am I here? - never gets raised. Individual Buddhists may -and do-
certainly think such thoughts and undergo periods of despair, but the primary
teaching of their tradition mitigates against it. In this tradition, the real
despair is in living a life driven by desire to inevitable disappointment.
Since Western Nihilists tend to surrender to living such a life, of course they
will find themselves frequently in despair; and thus does Buddhism offer a
viable alternative. - Winner
Peter H.M. Brooks
> pe...@psyche.demon.co.uk:
> | ...
> | I have a much better and less painful answer. I can clap with one hand,
> | it is a technique I learned as a child - it pisses off the hey-wow rather
> | nicely when I do it.
> | ...
>
> It is done in America by applying the heel of the hand sharply
> to the forehead. Allegedly, its practitioners can be often
> detected by their markedly sloped foreheads, and are often
> said to be of an ethnicity, ancestry, or political party
> different from those who make the observation and those to
> whom the observation is made. An exception to the last may
> sometimes occur in taverns with a highly informal atmosphere
> as a preparation for vigorous exercise.
>
I would contest that this is the sound of one hand clapping, it is
rather the sound of one hand and a head connecting. The trick of
clapping with one hand is to hold the palm back rigidly whilst
relaxing the fingers, as you then wave your arm back and forth the
fingers produce a standard clapping sound on the hand.
WinnerEJ
>so little humour that you don't get it is quite a failing.
AHEM:
>To be in process of change is not an evil,
(...)>- Marcus Aurelius
I not only do not claim perfection, I proclaim my imperfectibility. I try to
learn from my mistakes, and from those of others, too. - Winner
Brad McCormick, Ed.D.
>
> In article <37CE58...@cloud9.net>
> bra...@cloud9.net "Brad McCormick, Ed.D." writes:
>
> > James Whitehead wrote:
> > [snip]
> > > Having learnt the sutras by heart the monk was no nearer enlightenment,
> > > but did win a new car on a TV quiz show.
> >
> > I have long believed that a good response for a Zen monk trainee
> > to the fatuous question the Senior Monk who asks: "What is the
> > sound of one hand clapping?" would be for the trainee to
> > take a sharp knife and chop off one
> > of the self-satisfied Senior Monk's hands, so that
> > the Senior Monk could learn the answer (might be the
> > first real thing the Senior Monk ever learned
> > in his life!).
> >
> it is a technique I learned as a child - it pisses off the hey-wow rather
> nicely when I do it.
I didn't propose mine as the *only* answer. The only thing
I'd be fairly sure of is that the Senior Monk would find some
way to disparage *any answer* a student made -- like
students are humiliated in the West in Psychoanalytic Institutes.
David O'Bedlam
Hash: SHA1
On 2 Sep 1999, G*rd*n wrote:
[...]
> Certainly, Lucretius was talking only about the upper classes
> of his day.
And perhaps their house slaves as well. "Why bother getting an
education myself when I can just go buy a Greek who can read?"
> By the time we get to Henry "quiet desperation" Thoreau,
> industrialism has made this sort of despair available
> to a much wider population. A century later, they're
> jammed into Paris cafes.
And 40 years after that they're living in doss-houses typing
to Usenet newsgroups. "Vive la Rive Gauche Virtuel!"
Actually, the big problem with cafes in California is that
state law forbids one from smoking in them. As with many of
my intellectual forebears on the _real_ Left Bank, I find it
difficult to be "authentic" and/or "brilliant" without my
goddamn Gauloises.
TheDavid
- --
Send Me Money! DAVID, P.O. BOX 236, BERKELEY, CA 94707 (U.S.A.)
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Peter H.M. Brooks
winn...@aol.com "WinnerEJ" writes:
>
> I not only do not claim perfection, I proclaim my imperfectibility. I try to
> learn from my mistakes, and from those of others, too. - Winner
>
Quite right too! It is so much nicer to learn from other people's mistakes,
though, isn't it?
Peter H.M. Brooks
bra...@cloud9.net "Brad McCormick, Ed.D." writes:
> > I have a much better and less painful answer. I can clap with one hand,
> > it is a technique I learned as a child - it pisses off the hey-wow rather
> > nicely when I do it.
> [snip]
>
> I didn't propose mine as the *only* answer. The only thing
> I'd be fairly sure of is that the Senior Monk would find some
> way to disparage *any answer* a student made -- like
> students are humiliated in the West in Psychoanalytic Institutes.
>
He might attempt it. However, in my experience, attempts at gnomic superiority
normally mask ignorance and are fairly easy to puncture.
Brad McCormick, Ed.D.
>
> In article <37D05D...@cloud9.net>
> bra...@cloud9.net "Brad McCormick, Ed.D." writes:
>
> > > I have a much better and less painful answer. I can clap with one hand,
> > > it is a technique I learned as a child - it pisses off the hey-wow rather
> > > nicely when I do it.
> > [snip]
> >
> > I didn't propose mine as the *only* answer. The only thing
> > I'd be fairly sure of is that the Senior Monk would find some
> > way to disparage *any answer* a student made -- like
> > students are humiliated in the West in Psychoanalytic Institutes.
> >
> He might attempt it. However, in my experience, attempts at gnomic superiority
> normally mask ignorance and are fairly easy to puncture.
Not if you are *powerless*! The student monk or psychoanalytic
trainee (or generalized student, worker, child, welfare recipient,
patient, etc.) cannot often win in "fighting City Hall". The
psychoanalytic institute I attended got rid of me (or at least
made it such a "Vietnam" that I left).
\brad mccormick
>
> --
> Peter H.M. Brooks
> To be in process of change is not an evil, any more than to be the
> product of change is a good.
> - Marcus Aurelius.
But a "case study" methodology can often help
in these situations where statistical methods
merely lose truth in averages.
Lewis Mammel
> I would contest that this is the sound of one hand clapping, it is
> rather the sound of one hand and a head connecting. The trick of
> clapping with one hand is to hold the palm back rigidly whilst
> relaxing the fingers, as you then wave your arm back and forth the
> fingers produce a standard clapping sound on the hand.
In a memorable Rockford Files episode, Rockford spends the whole
show trying to convince a naive young girl that the guru she is
devoted to is a criminal and a phony. Of course, at some point she
poses this conundrum to Rockford in her attempt to explain to him the
intricacies of mystical thinking. In the final scene the phony
guru is exposed and the girl reveals that she has been the cause
of his downfall by spilling the beans of some sort. He exclaims
"You stupid little twit!" and slaps her across the face whereupon
Rockford drly remarks, "That's the sound of one hand clapping."
Lew Mammel, Jr.
Peter H.M. Brooks
lhma...@ameritech.net "Lewis Mammel" writes:
I must say one thing for the Zen chaps, they have certainly put their
peculiar handywork into the popular imagination.
Brad McCormick, Ed.D.
>
> Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
>
> > I would contest that this is the sound of one hand clapping, it is
> > rather the sound of one hand and a head connecting. The trick of
> > clapping with one hand is to hold the palm back rigidly whilst
> > relaxing the fingers, as you then wave your arm back and forth the
> > fingers produce a standard clapping sound on the hand.
>
> In a memorable Rockford Files episode, Rockford spends the whole
> show trying to convince a naive young girl that the guru she is
> devoted to is a criminal and a phony. Of course, at some point she
> poses this conundrum to Rockford in her attempt to explain to him the
> intricacies of mystical thinking. In the final scene the phony
> guru is exposed and the girl reveals that she has been the cause
> of his downfall by spilling the beans of some sort. He exclaims
> "You stupid little twit!" and slaps her across the face whereupon
> Rockford drly remarks, "That's the sound of one hand clapping."
Sounds good to me. It would, however, be further
poetic justice if the girl gave the
guru the clap back.
\brad mccormick
Brad McCormick, Ed.D.
>
> In article <37D1EA7B...@ameritech.net>
> lhma...@ameritech.net "Lewis Mammel" writes:
>
> >
> > > I would contest that this is the sound of one hand clapping, it is
> > > rather the sound of one hand and a head connecting. The trick of
> > > clapping with one hand is to hold the palm back rigidly whilst
> > > relaxing the fingers, as you then wave your arm back and forth the
> > > fingers produce a standard clapping sound on the hand.
> >
> > In a memorable Rockford Files episode, Rockford spends the whole
> > show trying to convince a naive young girl that the guru she is
> > devoted to is a criminal and a phony. Of course, at some point she
> > poses this conundrum to Rockford in her attempt to explain to him the
> > intricacies of mystical thinking. In the final scene the phony
> > guru is exposed and the girl reveals that she has been the cause
> > of his downfall by spilling the beans of some sort. He exclaims
> > "You stupid little twit!" and slaps her across the face whereupon
> > Rockford drly remarks, "That's the sound of one hand clapping."
> >
> peculiar handywork into the popular imagination.
By which I presume you mean: the [narrow] *limits* of the popular
imagination?
G*rd*n
| ... He exclaims
| "You stupid little twit!" and slaps her across the face whereupon
| Rockford drly remarks, "That's the sound of one hand clapping."
It is astonishing how Western Man has been bemused and engaged
by this particular _koan_, and has struggled over the decades
to deal with it. Why this one?
Lee Rudolph
>Lewis Mammel <lhma...@ameritech.net>:
>| ... He exclaims
>| "You stupid little twit!" and slaps her across the face whereupon
>| Rockford drly remarks, "That's the sound of one hand clapping."
>
>It is astonishing how Western Man has been bemused and engaged
>by this particular _koan_, and has struggled over the decades
>to deal with it. Why this one?
The repressed fear that, against all odds, one might yet get
the clap single-handedly?
Lee Rudolph
Peter H.M. Brooks
lrud...@panix.com "Lee Rudolph" writes:
Not if you know where your hand has been.
Ned Ludd
>> ... He exclaims
>> "You stupid little twit!" and slaps her across the face whereupon
>> Rockford drly remarks, "That's the sound of one hand clapping."
>
> It is astonishing how Western Man has been bemused and engaged
> by this particular _koan_, and has struggled over the decades
> to deal with it. Why this one?
>
Hey, look what Gordon just asked over on alt.pomo!
Would somebody here please answer this fool? Or at least THIS fool?
Ned
P.S. Lee Rudolph answered as follows, but I'm not sure it's right:
> The repressed fear that, against all odds, one might yet get
> the clap single-handedly?
> Lee Rudolph
Brad McCormick, Ed.D.
>
> Lewis Mammel <lhma...@ameritech.net>:
> | ... He exclaims
> | "You stupid little twit!" and slaps her across the face whereupon
> | Rockford drly remarks, "That's the sound of one hand clapping."
>
> by this particular _koan_, and has struggled over the decades
> to deal with it. Why this one?
>
Well, let's have some other ones.
Here's a proposal for one:
Why is a mouse when it spins?
Here's a real antidote to all this
guru and disciple stuff (quoting from
imperfect memory -- the real woding
may be more *pointed*):
"Early in my life, I had to make a choice
between false modesty and honest pride.
I chose the latter and never had cause to
regret it." (Frank Lloyd Wright)
Following the Biblical dictum to "Leave the
dead to bury the dead", we may also say: "Leave
the disciples to follow their leaders."
G*rd*n
| >> ... He exclaims
| >> "You stupid little twit!" and slaps her across the face whereupon
| >> Rockford drly remarks, "That's the sound of one hand clapping."
Gordon:
| > It is astonishing how Western Man has been bemused and engaged
| > by this particular _koan_, and has struggled over the decades
| > to deal with it. Why this one?
ned...@ix.netcom.com(Ned Ludd):
| Hey, look what Gordon just asked over on alt.pomo!
|
| Would somebody here please answer this fool? Or at least THIS fool?
| ...
| P.S. Lee Rudolph answered as follows, but I'm not sure it's right:
| > The repressed fear that, against all odds, one might yet get
| > the clap single-handedly?
We are talking about clapping one-handedly, not reading
one-handed books.
Lee Rudolph
>We are talking about clapping one-handedly, not reading
>one-handed books.
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne
a book written within and on the backside, sealed with
seven seals.
And I heard, as it were the noise of thunder.
Lee Rudolph
Lewis Mammel
> | "You stupid little twit!" and slaps her across the face whereupon
> | Rockford drly remarks, "That's the sound of one hand clapping."
>
> by this particular _koan_, and has struggled over the decades
> to deal with it. Why this one?
I don't think "struggled" is the right word. It fits into a tradition
of rustic wit that finds amusement in logical impasse. Consider the
title anecdote of Puddin'head Wilson, where young Wilson on arrival
at the river dock hears a dog barking and remarks, "I wish I owned half
of that dog." When asked why he says, "Because I'd kill my half." The
curious crowd engages in a lengthy discussion of which half he might own,
or whether he might own "half of the general dog, so to speak." and concludes
finally that Wilson's utterance is absurd and that he "mus' be a Puddin'head."
Note that a similar question of division is entailed by the koan, so in
both cases the concept of atomicity is invoked, and we needn't be puzzled
about how that fits in the Western tradition, need we?
Then we have "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" and "What's the difference
between a duck?", which breaks syntactic logic - arguably more bewildering
than the semantic difficulties posed by one hand clapping. There is however
a canonical answer, "one of its legs are both the same," which insofar as
it satisfies us shows our willingness to accept intellectual authority.
"Oh Suzanna" is similar to many koans based on simple contradiction, although
here again the expected reaction is amusement rather than bewliderment.
Nevertheless I can testify to the latter reaction on my own part. More
recently, DJ Jazzy Jeff and Fresh Prince added to this tradition with
"Then She Bit Me" where the narrator tells a long tale of wild circumstance
with constant and radical revision. Although this was a popular song, I felt
it achieved a higher significance for which it was never recognized.
Lew Mammel, Jr.
Brad McCormick, Ed.D.
[snip]
> "Oh Suzanna" is similar to many koans based on simple contradiction, although
> here again the expected reaction is amusement rather than bewliderment.
I have often wondered about "Oh Suzanna". The lyrics are
remarkable -- seeming to anticipate surrealism (or whatever of
this and not the 19th century). Perhaps it just expresses
a man's disorientation at being ill-treated by the woman he
loves (is obesessed with). But even then the lyrics are
remarkable for their ability to get beyond
naive realism/mimesis. Nursery rhymes have somewhat
similar elements sometimes, too.
I think it is worth once again repeating something I heard
on a Public Radio program about Stephen Foster. The
commentator said that Foster's native musical genius was
perhaps equal to Bach's, and yet Foster's music was
largely limited to its place and time, whereas Bach's
music is universal. Why the difference? Because Bach
knew the history of music and Foster didn't. As George
Steiner wrote: "Most books are about other books." We
create based on the appropriation of others' creations,
and what we don't know we can't make use of.
G*rd*n
| >We are talking about clapping one-handedly, not reading
| >one-handed books.
lrud...@panix.com (Lee Rudolph):
| And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne
| a book written within and on the backside, sealed with
| seven seals.
|
| And I heard, as it were the noise of thunder.
But was that because he was clapping, or doing something
else?
G*rd*n
| [snip]
| > "Oh Suzanna" is similar to many koans based on simple contradiction, although
| > here again the expected reaction is amusement rather than bewliderment.
| [snip]
| I have often wondered about "Oh Suzanna". The lyrics are
| remarkable -- seeming to anticipate surrealism (or whatever of
| this and not the 19th century). ...
There is a great deal of surrealism and logic play in "folk"
art, as witness "The Arkansas Traveler" or "The Original
Talking Blues" and a good part of the material in the Harry
Smith Anthology of American Folk Music.
If you want to get to Heaven let me tell you what to do,
You got grease your feet with a little mutton stew,
Sliiiide out of the Devil's hand,
And ooooze over to the promised land!
It's not hard to understand why Western Man might be bemused
by Zen Buddhism, in spite of the best efforts of Alan Watts
and other New-Ageists. It is the popularity of the particular
item in question, the one hand clapping, that is not easy for
me to understand. For W.M., this koan has become the
classical example, and allusions to it may be made freely in
the hip media without explanation, as when the music of Simon
and Garfunkle is said to be "the sound of J.D. Salinger
clapping." Why _this_ one?
| ...
| ... Why the difference? Because Bach
| knew the history of music and Foster didn't. ...
Wait 'til they discover the mountain of four- and five-part
fugues Steven Foster wrote and hid away, just tinkering around
with his piano. That'll show those music historians a thing
or two. _Der_Kunst_Der_Old_Virginny_.
Lewis Mammel
> There is a great deal of surrealism and logic play in "folk"
> art, as witness "The Arkansas Traveler" or "The Original
> Talking Blues" and a good part of the material in the Harry
> Smith Anthology of American Folk Music.
>
> If you want to get to Heaven let me tell you what to do,
> You got grease your feet with a little mutton stew,
> Sliiiide out of the Devil's hand,
> And ooooze over to the promised land!
This is merely an extravagant metaphor. I don't see that it
poses any sort of conundrum.
> It's not hard to understand why Western Man might be bemused
> by Zen Buddhism, in spite of the best efforts of Alan Watts
> and other New-Ageists. It is the popularity of the particular
> item in question, the one hand clapping, that is not easy for
> me to understand. For W.M., this koan has become the
> classical example, and allusions to it may be made freely in
> the hip media without explanation, as when the music of Simon
> and Garfunkle is said to be "the sound of J.D. Salinger
> clapping." Why _this_ one?
One might suggest that it relates to the tree falling in the forest,
since it pertains to the nature of sound. Its appeal might also be that
it's concrete, unlike the abstract problem of naming the unnameable.
It seems to pose an objective question, so the reductive machinery finds
something to engage with.
Also, I think you're being a bit obtuse in your rejection of Lee Rudolph's
suggestion. The point is that the imagery involved a hand and a sound, so
there's the connection ipso facto. To object that the imagery is not
necessarily identical to the koan is blockheaded.
Finally, the question "Why THIS one?" may be the problem of contingency
in microcosm. Why me? Why man? Why Morris the Cat?
Lew Mammel, Jr.
Brian Drummond
>g...@panix.com (G*rd*n) writes:
>| >We are talking about clapping one-handedly, not reading
>| >one-handed books.
>
>lrud...@panix.com (Lee Rudolph):
>| And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne
>| a book written within and on the backside, sealed with
>| seven seals.
If the backside was sealed with seven seals, he's gonna be on that
throne for a while. But at least he's got something to read.
>| And I heard, as it were the noise of thunder.
>
>But was that because he was clapping, or doing something
>else?
Like the Second
uh, wait, no. I'm not gonna touch that one.
- Brian
mondrian
<gallaghe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> What are the main differences between existentialism and nihilism?
> <gl>
existentialism comes to grips with the experience of meaninglessness,
which we call nihilism, but was called skepticism - doubt about the
existence/reality/groundedness of experience - as the standing
possibillity of nothingness. Existentialism interprets the claim that
experience makes idealists of us all (Emerson - Nietzsche - Heidegger...)
to mean that the question of life's meaning can only be authentically
answered by the individual for himself, and never once and for all -
Nietzsche's and Emerson's "divine yes!" This is of course a secular vision
of the intention of traditional religious faith, a "yes" to belief in
meaning in the face of uncertainty and absurdity which itself brings
little comfort,.
ROBBIE
Go Whitehead!
James Whitehead wrote in message <9ev4hBAb...@jliat.demon.co.uk>...
>In article <19990902003406...@ng-fj1.aol.com>,
>WinnerEJ <winn...@aol.com> writes
>>Further to James Whitehead:
>>Okay, i finally got the joke, ie., "nothing", and apologize for my snap at
you.
>> However your reply to my missing the punchline was a little harsh.
>Yes agreed- human all to human (and an empty bottle of red wine- but
>then drinking wine is in the spirit of existentialism if not vital to it)
>>As for reading the main texts - I do not see that negating living,
>no agreed - but it can't be a substitute (many 'people of the book' do
>crazy things)
>>I'm sorry,
>>reading is an activity and experience like any other.
>My main point I think was that *i* find existentialism refreshing in that
it
>seems posited in the actual dirty business of living- and not just in a set
>academic arguments- (I think the existentialist philosopher would
>regard the librarian quite differently to how a logical positivist would)
>
>> The Zen buddhists burn
>>their sutras - but only after having learned them by heart. - Winner
>Having learnt the sutras by heart the monk was no nearer enlightenment,
>but did win a new car on a TV quiz show.
>
>--
>James Whitehead
ROBBIE
If you want Nihilism and existentialism and all that old caper , you need
look no further than 'Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid' by Peckinpah
WinnerEJ wrote in message <19990902132237...@ng-fg1.aol.com>...
>oh, and PS to Brad:
>You're quite right about the nihilism of the present era and its depiction
in
>the Kubrick 's Paths of Glory - one of those films I can never forget but
would
>find it difficult sitting through again, and, yes, all too true.- Winner
ROBBIE
Fucking A right. Go Whitehead. Go Go, Go Whitehead Go. Danananana
Danananana.......
James Whitehead wrote in message ...
>In article <19990901114323...@ng-fo1.aol.com>,
>WinnerEJ <winn...@aol.com> writes
>>>>What are the main differences between existentialism and nihilism?
>>>><gl>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>essentially nothing :-)
>>>--
>>>James Whitehead
>>
>>Part of the endeavor of existentialist philosophers has been to find a way
out
>>of or around certain nihilistic propositions that are difficult to
disprove but
>>impossible to live by. Thus existentialism positions itself against
nihilism.
>>Mr. Whitehead is either unfamiliar with the major texts of existentialism
or he
>>has dismissed the existentialist endeavor as unnecessary and perhaps even
>>silly. In which case he should say so; his glib comment is simply
misleading.
>>- Winner
>Glib= Joke
>
>Why should the existentialists *try* to do anything-
>"find a way out" out of what? there is no escape .... (JPS)
>the idea of endeavor - in the GRAND sense of the world seems
>strangely romantic-
>...and is existentialsm an understanding of some texts...
>and not *being*....
>wow....
>get a life....
>--
>James Whitehead
ROBBIE
Cor, this Winner' a stroppy sod inne?
WinnerEJ wrote in message <19990901201740...@ng-bk1.aol.com>...
>to> James Whitehead
>
>Reply:
>A. Historically, Existentialism derives from Romanticism.
>B. I have a life, and one that includes reading.
>C. I prefer discussion to quarrelling
>D. Your existence has ceased to be of interest to me, I sincerely it
remains of
>interest for yourself, no matter how ashoirt a time you spend on this
planet.
ROBBIE
And Brad, while you're on the subject of the excellent 'Grand Illusion' and
it's place in culture, I have to say that it has been suggested that Beckett
got the whole 'Waiting for Godot' riff from the scene where Gabin and the
other escapee argue
Brad McCormick, Ed.D. wrote in message <37CF05...@cloud9.net>...
>WinnerEJ wrote:
>>
>> oh, and PS to Brad:
>> You're quite right about the nihilism of the present era and its
depiction in
>> the Kubrick 's Paths of Glory - one of those films I can never forget but
would
>> find it difficult sitting through again, and, yes, all too true.- Winner
>
>"If I had the power" I would require every manager to watch
>"Paths of Glory" at least once a year, and I would require
>it to be studied in MBA schools, etc.
>
>I find it one of the truest things I have ever seen. I've never
>worked in a place where I or my coworkers were fired on
>from behind (although I've had some not very nice work
>related experiences...), but I did have a manager once who
>said that he "wanted to see asses and elbows!"
>
>And there is a movie which is the antipode to "Paths of Glory":
>Jean Renoir's "The Grand Illusion", the ending of which
>is in my opinion one of the high achievements of culture: WWI.
>Two escaped French POWs approach the Swiss border. The Germans
>detect them, and take aim. But their officer tells his
>men to hold their fire: "They're over the border. The war
>is over for them And so much the better."
>
>And, while we've on the subject of books and films. I find
>the ending of Ingmar Bergman's "The Seventh Seal" to be a
>beautiful statement of the *saving* potential of literacy:
>
>The plague finally
>arrives to the Knight's home. Unlike most of the
>other persons there, the Knight's wife, Karin, is
>literate: she has acquired the "technical
>communication skill" to create, shape and maintain
>conversational space, whereas the others use language,
>but only with the naive immediacy of
>primary, unreflected orality, of which they are mostly
>unaware and cannot consciously deploy as a
>resource for shaping their life. Death comes to the
>door while the assembled persons are eating
>dinner, with Karin reading to them from the Bible.
>When Karin sees the new visitor at the door, she
>calmly looks at him, and says: "You are welcome in
>my house." By this gesture, I propose that this
>woman who has just received her husband back from
>many years' absence fighting a Crusade, and
>told him how she wants to love and play, is not
>saying she wants to die, but rather she is expressing
>the fact that, in conversation, there is a place
>for everything, even for dying [conversation's
>negation...], when that cannot be avoided --
>whereas, apart from conversation, the horrors of the
>world can only overwhelm the disoriented animal
>confronted by them, as most of the other
>characters in Bergman's film, in one way or another,
>"lose it" when Death approaches them.
James Whitehead
NICKBOOTH.FREESERVE.CO.UK> writes
>
>
>
>Fucking A right. Go Whitehead. Go Go, Go Whitehead Go. Danananana
>Danananana.......
>
if so where's my boy (i) wonder?
--
James Whitehead
James Whitehead
NICKBOOTH.FREESERVE.CO.UK> writes
>
>
>Go Whitehead!
>
"any job got the sack monday morning turning back...
oh that magic feeling nowhere to go.....
oh that magic feeling nowhere to go! "...
--
James Whitehead
ROBBIE
Its the guitar intro to any chuck berry toon
James Whitehead wrote in message ...
>In article <7rrhh8$j2k$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, ROBBIE <NICK@
>NICKBOOTH.FREESERVE.CO.UK> writes
>>
>>
>>
ROBBIE
Pick up the bags and get in the limousine.......
James Whitehead wrote in message ...
>In article <7rrhnb$j8d$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, ROBBIE <NICK@
>NICKBOOTH.FREESERVE.CO.UK> writes
>>
>>