There's nothing wrong with "Soyuz's" if you prefer to pronounce it that
way.
>Do I take it that it's now permissible to form a possessive of a word >by adding just an apostrophe to its end, rather than an apostrophe and >an "s"?
Words ending in an "s" sound sometimes have just the apostrophe,
particularly if, as with Soyuz, they are names.
The basic rule is simple enough: a possessive form is spelled with
's at the end. ....
There are three types of exception. First, a plural noun which
already ends in s takes only a following apostrophe:
the girls' excitement my parents' wedding both players' injuries the Klingons' attack the ladies' room two weeks' work
This is reasonable. We don't pronounce these words with two esses,
and so we don't write two esses: nobody says *the girls's
excitement. But note that plurals that don't end in s take the
ordinary form: see the cases of children and women above.
Second, a name ending in s takes only an apostrophe if the
possessive form is not pronounced with an extra s. Hence:
Socrates' philosophy Saint Saens' music Ulysses' companions Aristophanes' plays
Same reason: we don't say *Ulysses's companions, and so we don't
write the extra s.
The final class of exceptions is pronouns.
-- Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe)
In article <gd7j789trjqf0fhp6oqsj5nhjf7h9g1...@4ax.com>,
Peter Duncanson <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
<snip>
> Second, a name ending in s takes only an apostrophe if the
> possessive form is not pronounced with an extra s. Hence:
> Socrates' philosophy > Saint Saens' music > Ulysses' companions > Aristophanes' plays
> Same reason: we don't say *Ulysses's companions, and so we don't
> write the extra s.
Those examples are all polysyllabic, with which I'd expect nearly universal agreement. But there is a grey area among disyllabic names, wherein I suppose the best policy is just to signify one's own pronunciation. S-dropping is sometimes recommended for those of classical and biblical origin -- _Zeus'_, _Moses'_, _Jesus'_, &c. -- but I don't think these are universally so pronounced; indeed some, e.g. _Thomas'_ I think, are less often heard that way than with the final /@z/. And it's my impression that monosyllables almost always get this additional S, as in _James's_.
In article <odysseus1479-at-232585.20070113102...@news.eternal-september.org>, on Sat, 13 Oct 2012, Odysseus <odysseus1479...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote
[]
>/@z/. And it's my impression that monosyllables almost always get this
>additional S, as in _James's_.
Of course, Newcastle United (a football company in north-east England) have found an alternative solution to the problem: their ground has been St. James's Park (with, even locally, variation on whether it's pronounced Jameses or James, and I think similarly varied punctuation) for longer than anyone can remember. (The name comes from the district, which I think got its name from a church in the area.)
Due to a recent sponsorship deal, it is now called, officially, something like "the Sports Direct Stadium". (I may have the name of the company wrong - see next paragraph.)
But, of course, _nobody_ locally refers to it by the new name; the Magpies will remain at St. James's! (With the local accent, in comparison with which such niceties are insignificant: for a start, there's no R in Newcastle, it's a short a.) Much in the same way few New Yorkers refer to Broadway by its numerical name.
P. S. My spell checker suggested James's for Jameses.
-- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
So, Heresy be damned (well, it would be, wouldn't it?).
Radio Times 24-30 July 2010 (page 24)
In article <odysseus1479-at-232585.20070113102...@news.eternal-september.org>,
Odysseus wrote:
> S-dropping is sometimes recommended for those of > classical and biblical origin -- _Zeus'_, _Moses'_, _Jesus'_
I am aware that people do write (and say) Moses' and Jesus' in defiance of the normal rule ... and it is easier to speak those possessives in that way ... but I would always say (and write) Zeus's.
But then, Zeus isn't noted for being all that biblical ...
> ... indeed some, e.g. _Thomas'_ I think, are less often heard that
> way than with the final /@z/.
IME the things belonging to Thomas are invariably referred to in speech with the final "siz" syllable, but often not written that way. Whenever I travel along the embankment at Westminster and look across the river and see "St.Thomas' Hospital" I cringe.
> And it's my impression that monosyllables almost always get this > additional S, as in _James's_.
I have heard people say, for example: "St.James' Park" ... but strangely I don't recall seeing it written that way. James seems to get the opposite treatment from Thomas, in this respect.
In article <VA.000006ca.17106...@me.invalid>,
Daniel James <dan...@me.invalid> wrote:
> In article > <odysseus1479-at-232585.20070113102...@news.eternal-september.org>, > Odysseus wrote:
> > S-dropping is sometimes recommended for those of > > classical and biblical origin -- _Zeus'_, _Moses'_, _Jesus'_
> I am aware that people do write (and say) Moses' and Jesus' in defiance > of the normal rule ... and it is easier to speak those possessives in > that way ... but I would always say (and write) Zeus's.
> But then, Zeus isn't noted for being all that biblical ...
Are you implying that you've seen the above recommendation made for biblical names but not classical ones? It's my impression that they come as a package in this context, but I haven't actually researched the question.
(I note, however, that Wikipedia's Manual of Style mentions Zeus as an exception to the pattern, so it was probably a poor choice as an example: "Possessives of certain classical and biblical names have traditional pronunciations that may be deemed to take precedence: _Jesus' answer_ and _Xerxes' expeditions_, but _Zeus's anger_ ...")
At 21:04:50 on Tue, 16 Oct 2012, Odysseus <odysseus1479...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in <odysseus1479-at-FEA12D.21044316102...@news.eternal-september.org>:
>(I note, however, that Wikipedia's Manual of Style mentions Zeus as an
>exception to the pattern, so it was probably a poor choice as an
>example: "Possessives of certain classical and biblical names have
>traditional pronunciations that may be deemed to take precedence:
>_Jesus' answer_ and _Xerxes' expeditions_, but _Zeus's anger_ ...")
This ties in with what I was taught at school, which was that if there were already two "s" sounds one didn't add a third - so Frances' book, Odysseus' travels, but Roz's house and Glass's Guide.
But I can't find a way for the rule to apply to possessive plural surnames - the Joneses' garden is straightforward enough, but the Smiths' daughter rather than the expected Smiths's daughter.
-- Molly Mockford
Nature loves variety. Unfortunately, society hates it. (Milton Diamond Ph.D.)
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
In article <odysseus1479-at-FEA12D.21044316102...@news.eternal-september.org>,
Odysseus wrote:
> Are you implying that you've seen the above recommendation made for > biblical names but not classical ones?
I think so ... though whether I meant to imply that I'm not sure.
It seems to me that religion is silly, so it's allowed to have silly rules; but the classics are serious and should be expected to conform to the usual guidelines!
In article <+npjZJrAtlfQF...@molly.mockford>, Molly Mockford wrote:
> But I can't find a way for the rule to apply to possessive plural > surnames - the Joneses' garden is straightforward enough, but the > Smiths' daughter rather than the expected Smiths's daughter.
