St Peter's

[Peter Duncanson]

I've just noticed on-screen text during the live TV coverage of the
Pope's departue from the Vatican.

"Bells of St Peter's ring as Pope leaves Vatican City"

I suppose if we get rid of the "of" that could be:

"St Peter's's bells ring as Pope leaves Vatican City"

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe)

[Peter Young]

On 28 Feb 2013 Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

> I've just noticed on-screen text during the live TV coverage of the
> Pope's departue from the Vatican.

> "Bells of St Peter's ring as Pope leaves Vatican City"

> I suppose if we get rid of the "of" that could be:

> "St Peter's's bells ring as Pope leaves Vatican City"

Or St Peter's' bells, for the old-fashioned?

My daughter and family live in the next village, and there's great and
unresolved debate as to whether is should be Bishops Cleeve, Bishop's
Cleeve or Bishops' Cleeve. It was held by the Bishops of Hereford in
the middle ages, so my opinion is that the last of these is correct.

Peter.

--
Peter Young and family
Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
pny...@ormail.co.uk

[Richard Owlett]

Peter Duncanson wrote:
> I've just noticed on-screen text during the live TV coverage of the
> Pope's departue from the Vatican.
>
> "Bells of St Peter's ring as Pope leaves Vatican City"
>
> I suppose if we get rid of the "of" that could be:
>
> "St Peter's's bells ring as Pope leaves Vatican City"
>

I don't think so.
I believe there is an implied noun after "St. Peter's" which
it modifies - as implied by it being in the possessive case.
One would need to know the proper/full/formal/??? name of
"St. Peter's" to be sure.

[Molly Mockford]

At 10:47:00 on Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Richard Owlett <row...@pcnetinc.com>
wrote in <DOidnTORBZGUF7LM...@supernews.com>:

>I don't think so.
>I believe there is an implied noun after "St. Peter's" which it
>modifies - as implied by it being in the possessive case.
>One would need to know the proper/full/formal/??? name of "St. Peter's"
>to be sure.

Ah, in that case it would be the bells of the Papal Basilica of Saint
Peter in the Vatican - or, of course, the Papal Basilica of Saint Peter
in the Vatican's bells. Easy-peasy.
--
Molly Mockford
Nature loves variety. Unfortunately, society hates it. (Milton Diamond Ph.D.)
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

[John M Ward]

In article <lNK1ZfTx$4LR...@molly.mockford>,

Molly Mockford <nospam...@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
> At 10:47:00 on Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Richard Owlett <row...@pcnetinc.com>
> wrote in <DOidnTORBZGUF7LM...@supernews.com>:

> >I don't think so.
> >I believe there is an implied noun after "St. Peter's" which it
> >modifies - as implied by it being in the possessive case. One would
> >need to know the proper/full/formal/??? name of "St. Peter's" to be
> >sure.

> Ah, in that case it would be the bells of the Papal Basilica of Saint
> Peter in the Vatican - or, of course, the Papal Basilica of Saint
> Peter in the Vatican's bells. Easy-peasy.

I think this is all just a load of bells...

--
John M Ward, posting from the Apihna Arms' Comfy Chair
My "Fun with English" web page can now be found at:
www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/english

[Mack A. Damia]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 23:08:52 +0000 (GMT), John M Ward
<jo...@acornusers.org> wrote:

>In article <lNK1ZfTx$4LR...@molly.mockford>,
> Molly Mockford <nospam...@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
>> At 10:47:00 on Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Richard Owlett <row...@pcnetinc.com>
>> wrote in <DOidnTORBZGUF7LM...@supernews.com>:
>
>> >I don't think so.
>> >I believe there is an implied noun after "St. Peter's" which it
>> >modifies - as implied by it being in the possessive case. One would
>> >need to know the proper/full/formal/??? name of "St. Peter's" to be
>> >sure.
>
>> Ah, in that case it would be the bells of the Papal Basilica of Saint
>> Peter in the Vatican - or, of course, the Papal Basilica of Saint
>> Peter in the Vatican's bells. Easy-peasy.
>
>I think this is all just a load of bells...

Another clapper caper?

--

[Robin Bignall]

Is everyone familiar with the nursery rhyme "Oranges and Lemons"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oranges_and_Lemons#Lyrics
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England

[Mack A. Damia]

Is everyone familiar with the fairly well-known (U.S.) 1968 comedy
routine between Jack Webb of Dragnet fame and Johnny Carson of the
Tonight Show?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjquGpmgwOo

--

[Sam Plusnet]

In article <d6cb2a255...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,
pny...@ormail.co.uk says...

>
> On 28 Feb 2013 Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
> > I've just noticed on-screen text during the live TV coverage of the
> > Pope's departue from the Vatican.
>
> > "Bells of St Peter's ring as Pope leaves Vatican City"
>
> > I suppose if we get rid of the "of" that could be:
>
> > "St Peter's's bells ring as Pope leaves Vatican City"
>
> Or St Peter's' bells, for the old-fashioned?
>
> My daughter and family live in the next village, and there's great and
> unresolved debate as to whether is should be Bishops Cleeve, Bishop's
> Cleeve or Bishops' Cleeve. It was held by the Bishops of Hereford in
> the middle ages, so my opinion is that the last of these is correct.
>

But did Hereford have more than one bishop at a time?

However given the current situation in Rome, your conclusion seems the
safest.



--
Sam

[Peter Young]

Serial bishops, rather, but definitely plural, serially.

> However given the current situation in Rome, your conclusion seems the
> safest.

With best wishes,

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In article <cd3ad2255...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, on Fri, 1 Mar
2013, Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote

>On 1 Mar 2013 Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <d6cb2a255...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,
>> pny...@ormail.co.uk says...
>>>
>>> On 28 Feb 2013 Peter Duncanson <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've just noticed on-screen text during the live TV coverage of the
>>>> Pope's departue from the Vatican.
>>>
>>>> "Bells of St Peter's ring as Pope leaves Vatican City"
>>>
>>>> I suppose if we get rid of the "of" that could be:
>>>
>>>> "St Peter's's bells ring as Pope leaves Vatican City"
>>>
>>> Or St Peter's' bells, for the old-fashioned?
>>>
>>> My daughter and family live in the next village, and there's great and
>>> unresolved debate as to whether is should be Bishops Cleeve, Bishop's
>>> Cleeve or Bishops' Cleeve. It was held by the Bishops of Hereford in
>>> the middle ages, so my opinion is that the last of these is correct.
>>>
>> But did Hereford have more than one bishop at a time?
>
>Serial bishops, rather, but definitely plural, serially.
>
>> However given the current situation in Rome, your conclusion seems the
>> safest.
>
>With best wishes,
>
>Peter.
>

Interesting! In genealogy, UK parish records - which are more or less
the only large source of information once you get back before the first
(1841) fullish census - had to be copied out and sent to the local
bishop, usually once a year. [I don't know over what time period.]
(Often, these are the only easily-accessible records: the LDS have
scanned many of them, and make them available free [though they aren't
indexed so are hard to use], whereas the original parish records are
only patchily available, and not always free. The transcripts, though
copies, are _reasonably_ good ones [I have a case where not!], since
they are usually done by the same cleric who filled in the original
register, and within a year or so.)

Where was I? Oh yes - these are generally known as Bishops Transcripts
(though I prefer without capitals). Now, I can't remember whether an
apostrophe is added or not, and if so where it goes; I certainly feel
there should be one, but where? I would argue that in the case of a
single record, it is a bishop's transcript, because it is done for one
bishop. But if referring to the collection as a whole - e. g. "have you
looked in the bishops' transcripts at the LDS?" - it's an interesting
question: obviously there was more than one bishop across the country as
a whole. I _suspect_ that those relating to one see (bishop area) would
be bishop's transcripts*, whereas the whole collection would be the
bishops' transcripts.

*Even within one see, there would be more than one bishop over time. But
- except in the year of handover - an individual transcript (book) would
have been done for just one of them.

Having to constantly think about where to put the apostrophe, depending
on whether one is talking about a single page, book, see, or the whole
corpus, is probably too much for most genealogists, who have more
difficult things to think about (such as actually _reading_ the things!)
- and can probably point out that the rules for apostrophes were
followed no more rigorously in the past than now, and may indeed have
been different (or not existed) anyway at times.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I'm tired of all this nonsense about beauty being only skin-deep. That's deep
enough. What do you want, an adorable pancreas?" - Jean Kerr

[Mike Fleming]

In article <YLhmPTZJ...@soft255.demon.co.uk>, "J. P. Gilliver

(John)" <ju...@soft255.demon.co.uk> writes:

> *Even within one see, there would be more than one bishop over time. But
> - except in the year of handover - an individual transcript (book) would
> have been done for just one of them.

Even in the year of handover, there would only be one occupier of the
bishopric at a time, so the transcript would be done for the singular
bishop rather than the plural occupants of that position.

--
Mike Fleming

[Ian Goddard]

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> In article <cd3ad2255...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, on Fri, 1 Mar
> 2013, Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote
>> On 1 Mar 2013 Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <d6cb2a255...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,

>>>> My daughter and family live in the next village, and there's great and
>>>> unresolved debate as to whether is should be Bishops Cleeve, Bishop's
>>>> Cleeve or Bishops' Cleeve. It was held by the Bishops of Hereford in
>>>> the middle ages, so my opinion is that the last of these is correct.

OS says Bishop's. That seems reasonable. After all there was only one
bishop owning it at any one time. Nevertheless when a description
becomes a proper noun such niceties don't seem to matter hence names
such as Kings Langley and Duntisbourne Abbots.

> Interesting! In genealogy, UK parish records - which are more or less
> the only large source of information once you get back before the first
> (1841) fullish census - had to be copied out and sent to the local

> bishop, usually once a year. %>< these are generally known as Bishops Transcripts

> (though I prefer without capitals).

Possibly the source of your problem, see below.

> Now, I can't remember whether an
> apostrophe is added or not, and if so where it goes; I certainly feel
> there should be one, but where? I would argue that in the case of a
> single record, it is a bishop's transcript, because it is done for one
> bishop. But if referring to the collection as a whole - e. g. "have you
> looked in the bishops' transcripts at the LDS?" - it's an interesting
> question: obviously there was more than one bishop across the country as
> a whole. I _suspect_ that those relating to one see (bishop area) would
> be bishop's transcripts*, whereas the whole collection would be the
> bishops' transcripts.
>
> *Even within one see, there would be more than one bishop over time. But
> - except in the year of handover - an individual transcript (book) would
> have been done for just one of them.
>
> Having to constantly think about where to put the apostrophe, depending
> on whether one is talking about a single page, book, see, or the whole
> corpus, is probably too much for most genealogists, who have more
> difficult things to think about (such as actually _reading_ the things!)
> - and can probably point out that the rules for apostrophes were
> followed no more rigorously in the past than now, and may indeed have
> been different (or not existed) anyway at times.

Normally abbreviated to BTs which avoids the whole problem.

--
Ian

The Hotmail address is my spam-bin. Real mail address is iang
at austonley org uk

[solar penguin]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:11:55 +0000, Peter Duncanson wrote:

> I've just noticed on-screen text during the live TV coverage of the
> Pope's departue from the Vatican.
>
> "Bells of St Peter's ring as Pope leaves Vatican City"
>
> I suppose if we get rid of the "of" that could be:
>
> "St Peter's's bells ring as Pope leaves Vatican City"

Or it could be, that following phrases like "would of", "could of", etc.
"of" has now completely taken over from "have".

"Bells have St Peter's ring as Pope leaves Vatican City"