apc16: The traditional questions
Pat Kight
Copied from the version DejaGoogle suggests was posted last year by
TigerSpot. As I understand it, the questions originated with former
poster Jennie D-O'C.; they've accreted and mutated a bit over the years
(this version includes contributions from RJ, serene and MoragR, I
believe), but they're still a nice assist for those who can't get past
the "Ooh, shiny! Fun! People!" stage of reminiscence.
Answer what you please. Or don't - this is, of course, an entirely
optional exercise. But some of us are sitting here pining for our
vacarious apc fixes...
THE QUESTIONS:
* What did you hear or see during the con that made you think?
* What happened during the con that made you laugh?
* What happened during the con that touched you (and maybe even made
you cry)?
* What was a moment during the con where you felt included or desired?
Tell about it if you want.
* What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
* Was there a moment during the con where you felt wistful? Tell
about it if you want.
* Was there a moment during the con where you felt bowled over by
another attendee's beauty or eloquence? Tell about it if you want.
* Was there a question you wanted to ask during the weekend that you
didn't get a chance to ask? Tell what it was if you want.
* Tell about a piece of relationship advice (that you or another
attendee shared) that felt really useful to you.
* What did you like most/least about Las Vegas?
* Tell about someone you met that you hadn't met before.
* Tell about a time that fed you socially/emotionally.
* Tell about a time that drained you socially/emotionally.
* Did you get a new sweetie (or more than one) at the con? (Remember,
all questions are optional.)
* Tell about someone who was just as you expected them to be in
person.
* Tell about someone who was very different from what you expected to
be in person.
* Did you make a new friend or meet anyone you'd like to be friends
with?
And finally, my addition:
* Are you planning to attend the next alt.polycon?
--
Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Lissa McCollum
>
> THE QUESTIONS:
I left a few out, because I didn't have an answer right away.
I might go back and take a stab at them later.
> * What did you hear or see during the con that made you think?
The final panel that I went to, on Chosen Family. I'm still
mulling over what my various definitions of family are.
Slippery word, that. I'd still like to hear what people
use as markers of who is family and who isn't. (My examples
at the time, off the top of my head: family is granted some
authority over my children, is welcome at my Thanksgiving
table and Christmas morning, is someone who I'll travel
cross country for a funeral, even if I haven't seen
them for years and years...anyone have more?)
>
> * What happened during the con that made you laugh?
So many things! Starting with going to midnight pancakes
at IHOP with Cheryl and Jay soon after the guys and I got
there on Friday night. The two of them are a hoot,
and our waitress was an instigator of the best kind. We
wanted to scoop her up and take her back to the con with us.
>
> * What happened during the con that touched you (and maybe even made
> you cry)?
Listening to the discussion of badly wanting children,
not being able to, and the troubles that being poly
bring when talking to potential adoption agencies.
>
> * What was a moment during the con where you felt included or desired?
> Tell about it if you want.
Several times, but the one that comes to mind first
was at the Decadent Brunch on Sunday. The guys and I
chose to sit at an otherwise empty table...and when I
turned around it was full of people who chose to sit
with us. Thanks folks!
>
> * What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
"You *are* the evil twin!" (Theresa & I get mistaken for each
other pretty regularly. Which one of us is the evil one is
left as an exercise for the student.) Followed closely by
Aahz ordering me, "You! Up against the wall!" (For my
calendar picture. But it made me giggle and wiggle.)
>
> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt wistful? Tell
> about it if you want.
When we were leaving, and hugging folks, not knowing when
or even if I would ever see all of you again. And seeing
all the people who I didn't get to talk to nearly enough if
at all, because there just wasn't enough *time*.
>
> * What did you like most/least about Las Vegas?
Vegas is a busy busy place that is determined to
have fun in spite of itself. I love people watching
there. I love watching my guys get whiplash people
watching there. :) But I am very very glad that I have
never tried to get behind the wheel in that town.
>
> * Tell about someone you met that you hadn't met before.
sio is a beautiful, gracious, sweet spoken and thoughtful
lady, with the most wonderful voice, and an open friendliness
that makes you feel at home.
>
> * Tell about a time that fed you socially/emotionally.
I dressed up for our outing to Zumanity on Saturday night.
Several people went out of their way to compliment me on
the dress and shawl, which made me feel all fuzzy glowy.
>
> * Tell about a time that drained you socially/emotionally.
Being in the con suite when the hotel staff chastised us for
cooking and putting tape on the wall. I felt like I was getting
scolded by my parents, or a teacher. Have I ever mentioned that
I hate any kind of confrontation?
>
> * Did you get a new sweetie (or more than one) at the con? (Remember,
> all questions are optional.)
Nope. Confirmed that I do indeed have a crush, though.
Anyone have a working transporter yet?
> * Tell about someone who was just as you expected them to be in
person.
* Tell about someone who was very different from what you expected to
be in person.
> * Did you make a new friend or meet anyone you'd like to be friends
> with?
Combining these...I am horrendously bad with attaching
names to identities, so I try not to have preconceptions.
There was a lot of 'oh, *that* is who that is. Cool!' going
on for me. But I was able to re-connect with some of the folks
from the San Diego con, which was wonderful fun. Good
people. And I met some of the folks from here (and on
my LJ) that I hadn't been able to talk to in person
before. Sparkly. And there are some people who fascinated
me, but I still have no idea who exactly they are. Maybe
I'll figure it out as I go along.
>
>
> And finally, my addition:
>
> * Are you planning to attend the next alt.polycon?
I'm hoping to, but it depends on what dates are chosen,
and what our finances look like next time around. But I
have a sister in Atlanta, and a niece I haven't met yet,
so it would be a good excuse to go visit, no?
-Lissa
Phoenix
> Because somebody's got to do it. (-:
So let me be the first to reply. And the short form of getting home
horrors: left brunch EARLY to go to airport. Shoulda stayed! Coulda had
another kind of cake. Or more coffee. Or more kisses. <g> Waited 2.5
hours (1.5 in airport, 1 on the tarmac in line for takeoff). Got to PDX
about 6pm and my Portland honey and her son picked me up, then she fed
me, let me burble and go goo-goo, and put me to bed early.
And got me up at 5:30am to go to work. Urg! 10 hours at work (I *do*
love my job, but oy...) and came home to my Yamhill honey, lots of cats
and a dog who missed me, a Poirot episode on DVD and KFC for din-din. I
probably have to go shopping soon. I'm not sure there's anything in the
house except liverwurst. Which is the consequence of leaving He Who Eats
Weird Food home alone for 3 days.
Onward...
> * What did you hear or see during the con that made you think?
Good heavens, nearly all of it. I heard so many thoughtful things about
poly and aging, and poly and mental health, and poly and parenting. And
well, poly and almost everything.
I think the one that brought me up especially short was Guy's comment
about people asking about his disability.
The one that got made my brain and mouth both start going was the
discussion of politics/privilege/poverty/racism/all-that-other-stuff in
the consuite.
The one that made me go "oh!!" was RJ's idea for pod-based "ideal poly
home" coupled with Michael's idea for a sort of walled compound thing.
That could work together. Geodesic domes!
> * What happened during the con that made you laugh?
Too many things to recount. There was MUCH laughter!
> * What happened during the con that touched you (and maybe even made
> you cry)?
Sharing my own experience with having wanted a dozen babies and never
being able to carry to term. Remembering the pain of those years.
> * What was a moment during the con where you felt included or desired?
> Tell about it if you want.
Way too many to recount, again. I think I spent most of this con with my
head doing a Sally Field impression. "They like me. They LIKE me! Why in
the world do they like me??" sio seeking me out to sit next to me. Goo
goo eyes. Hugs from Aahz. Invitations, conversations, unexpected hugs
when I had to leave.
I SO had a lovely time, and felt so much a "part of". Which, in my life,
is a real rare experience. And one of the reasons I treasure this group.
> * What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
Unfortunately, I cannot recall specific quotes. Oh, except for: "OK.
*Now* what?" And "Could you please do that to me again?" <G>
> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt wistful? Tell
> about it if you want.
I don't recall a lot of wist. There's a sense I should say I missed my
Portland area sweeties, but you know? neither of them enjoys these sorts
of things and they were much happier where they were. Which is kinda the
point of poly, eh?
> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt bowled over by
> another attendee's beauty or eloquence? Tell about it if you want.
Meeting sio in person; she's SO lovely and warm and smart and funny. And
geez! she speaks English better than I do half the time....
Oh yes. And Betsy. "Dipstick!". That was one of the most eloquent
comments, in context, that I heard.
> * Was there a question you wanted to ask during the weekend that you
> didn't get a chance to ask? Tell what it was if you want.
I wanted to ask Guy about his disability, but didn't dare :-) Or just
didn't have a chance.
> * Tell about a piece of relationship advice (that you or another
> attendee shared) that felt really useful to you.
Don't recall any, per se. I remember going "Oh! That's a good idea"
several times. But I didn't write it down in my external brain, so it
slipped away again.
> * What did you like most/least about Las Vegas?
I confess (and no offense to the LV residents who were there), I really
really dislike Las Vegas. I don't much like desert. I really don't like
glitz and neon and billboards and almost everything that makes up Las
Vegas. So what I liked least about Las Vegas was....almost all of it.
What did I like most about Las Vegas? Roxanne and Maureen :-) (and their
spouses).
> * Tell about someone you met that you hadn't met before.
So many of them! Roxanne...such a lovely, sweet woman and so helpful.
sio...beautiful and AWFULLY useful...she was helping me with things
before I even realized I needed to ask for help (the joy of submissives
who are well-trained, I guess...). LisaG, just about as I'd expected
her really, and hey, her husband's ex-wife moved to the town where my
first boyfriend Rich the Bastard was born, you, ya know, we have, like,
stuff in common. So many others, and so many of them wonderful.
Can you get Disney Chemicals for a whole GROUP of folks?
> * Tell about a time that fed you socially/emotionally.
Many, but Aahz and sio taking care of moving me from the first (smelly,
smoking) room to the second (nice, non-smoking) room. I only had to
carry my cane, I think. And chatting quietly and intensely with Michael
in the corner of the lobby.
> * Tell about a time that drained you socially/emotionally.
There wasn't one. I would note that I made sure to have some alone/down
time for myself both days, though.
> * Did you get a new sweetie (or more than one) at the con? (Remember,
> all questions are optional.)
Hee hee! Well, I have begun at least discussions of "what next, then?"
with a new Poing Object, who I am sorely tempted to name a sweetie but
think it may be a bit premature at the moment to do that. Yes, this is
the Goo-Goo Eye Object. Michael and I were a bit, um, obvious I guess.
And I think I may have been completely oblivious to flirting by another,
if the goodbye kisses were any indication. Did I miss the clue-by-four,
dear sio?
> * Tell about someone who was just as you expected them to be in
> person.
Those I already knew...well, of course. The others? Golly. Lisa G, I
think, the most. Solid, to the point, sweet, cheerful in the face of
extreme tired, and wise. It may be that raising all those boys does that
to a person...
> * Tell about someone who was very different from what you expected to
> be in person.
I thought Brooks would be...taller, somehow. And older. A bit more of a
distinguished professor-type, than the cute young thing he is.
And Lissa. I'm really not sure WHAT I expected, but it wasn't what was
there. And what was there was....magnificent. Especially in that dress
for Zumanity. <fans face quickly, then remembers Oksana and HER
outfit...oh dear, I won't be needing the heat on tonight, will I?>
> * Did you make a new friend or meet anyone you'd like to be friends
> with?
See "sweeties" :-) And Roxanne. And Tiger Spot. And Ruth Anne (although
I'd met her before). And...oh heck, ALL of 'em.
> * Are you planning to attend the next alt.polycon?
I am going to do my double darned damnedest to do so. Even if it IS in
Atlanta. I might even (gasp!) volunteer for sumthin...
Deborah
who now has to really really go to bed because she is really really
tired and the cat is asleep across the back of my chair and the dog is
asleep on the couch and she doesn't want to hang up, er, sign off...
Tiger Spot
wrote:
>Pat Kight wrote:
>> * What did you hear or see during the con that made you think?
>
>The final panel that I went to, on Chosen Family. I'm still
>mulling over what my various definitions of family are.
>Slippery word, that.
I thought of a better way to phrase the distinction I was trying to
make with "Traditional family is transitive": Traditional family is
opt-out and chosen family is opt-in.
> I'd still like to hear what people
>use as markers of who is family and who isn't.
I have no idea. Someone in that panel mentioned something like "We all
know who's in our family, however we define it," and I realized that I
really don't. It's very fuzzy for me.
>My examples
>at the time, off the top of my head: family is granted some
>authority over my children,
Actually, I was curious what you meant by that. I would assume that a
teacher would have some authority over the children, but not count as
family. Is there a more specific kind of authority that you meant?
--Theresa
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
> THE QUESTIONS:
>
> * What did you hear or see during the con that made you think?
Ian had a comment about the persistenece of labelling wherein he used me
as an example and said that if he decides that I'm a cyclist and applies
that label to me, it's going to take a lot for me to make him decide
otherwise. That made me think both about labelling and the labels that
other people come up for you, but also about my relationship with
cycling of late.
> * What happened during the con that made you laugh?
I laughed a fair bit throughout the con, as I always do. My recall is
poorer than usual this time, because I experimented with sleep aids and
didn't take any multivitamins, both of which really affected my brain's
ability to do its thing. Oh, probably the memorable quote moment below
and people climbing all over the furniture to get a photo of Oksana's
decadent brunch outfit.
> * What happened during the con that touched you (and maybe even made
> you cry)?
I got to spend a lot of time in groups that included Sio, and she
spoke a whole lot about her partners HMM and K. She spoke about them
with a great deal of tenderness and openness, and I was touched not so
much by the specific words as how they were said.
> * What was a moment during the con where you felt included or desired?
I think I felt included on the last day when I spent quite a while in
the consuite -- more time than I can usually manage to spend in the
consuite without getting really anxious -- and felt happy and
comfortable the whole time.
All three of my partners were in attendance, so of course they always
help me to feel desired. Out in general conspace, I don't know if that
was a feeling I had, but I'm also not sure how much I open myself up for
that.
> * What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
"Just so you know, if you ever decide to change your mind, I'd be up for
it!"
- Guy to Sarah during the Monogamous Partners of Poly People panel
:)
> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt wistful?
When I was feeling introverted and out of place and I took some time to
myself in my room to find a bunch of my friends from home posting photos
of all the new snow.
> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt bowled over by
> another attendee's beauty or eloquence?
Eloquence: Lisa G. reading a portion of her novel in progress in the
consuite. (It's very good.) Ian and Debbie N. in the panels on several
occasions, especially when they got going between them.
Beauty: All my partners at various times. I am very lucky. Lisa G. in
her Zumanity dress. Various expressive moments on people's faces,
especially Phoenix and Debbie N. whenever they smiled and Lissa when she
was showing off her new dress. Betsy waiting for Sarah to show up so
they could go swimming. *ahem*
> * Was there a question you wanted to ask during the weekend that you
> didn't get a chance to ask?
Not that I can think of.
> * Tell about a piece of relationship advice (that you or another
> attendee shared) that felt really useful to you.
There was a pretty interesting / practical discussion (which technically
occurred before the con started while out shopping) about constructing
your own custom bed and bedding. I think that there was some good
advice given about your partners choosing you, taking their word for it
that they want to be with you and that even if they can't have all of
you, they may prefer some of you to none of you. However, it was worded
better than that, and I'm not trying to toot my own horn here -- I did
my usual "try to add an illustrative analogy" thing, but I think I
picked a particularly crappy analogy. (Also, I'm not sure that I felt
that the advice wound up being hugely useful *to the person asking* --
just that I felt that it was useful stuff to have in the relationship
advice cabinet.)
> * What did you like most/least about Las Vegas?
Liked most: A bunch of awesome people temporarily there (a few awesome
people permanently there). Outback Steak house able to provide a
surprisingly satsifying vegetarian sandwich for surprisingly little
money.
Liked least: Getting an instant headache and congestion from the smell
of stale smoke in the airport. Almost everything being only accessible
by car. Profusion of constant construction rendering our GPS' maps
often inaccurate. Driving, despite being totally necessary, was often a
big hassle (lots of U-turns necessary to get anywhere, lots of traffic).
> * Tell about someone you met that you hadn't met before.
Helen-Louise's Mom made me set aside a whole lot of my preconceptions
about what someone-in-my-peer-group's-Mom might conceivably be like
within moments. A lot of her stories contained a much higher density of
hanging out with punk rock vocalists and going to Rammstein concerts
than I was initially prepared for. (This is a good thing -- I like
having my preconceptions highlighted and challenged.)
> * Tell about a time that fed you socially/emotionally.
I spent very little time in the consuite, but I enjoyed the time spent
there when there were only a small number of people there and they all
formed a large social unit that was easy to join in with. In those
times, I felt like part of a community in a way that was very helpful.
> * Tell about a time that drained you socially/emotionally.
Anytime when there were enough people in a room (mostly a couple of
times when I went into the consuite or wandered by the lobby) that they
formed several very small units instead of one big one and I didn't feel
comfortable joining in. Also, after one panel when a bunch of people I
really like and respect said a lot of interesting things and then I saw
them out in the lobby immediately afterward, I think continuing the
discussion, and I desperately wanted to join but couldn't bring myself
to. I want to explicitly say that all of these situations were about my
own demons and had nothing to do with anything the people did -- I often
came to these conclusions when I was still far enough away that they
didn't even see me. These were usually clues that I needed to take some
downtime. That they were so stressful was largely a function of not
*wanting* to take downtime because I knew I wouldn't have much time with
these people.
> * Did you get a new sweetie (or more than one) at the con?
No. But as I mentioned above, I don't know that I put myself out there
in a way that creates this kind of opportunity. Plus, while I didn't
sticker my badge at all this con, I've been stickering as "not looking"
for many cons in a row now.
> * Tell about someone who was just as you expected them to be in
> person.
Sio was pretty much exactly as I pictured her. Her accent wasn't as
strong as I expected, but when it came out, it was just as I imagined
her sounding, and she speaks in ways that remind me of her here.
> * Tell about someone who was very different from what you expected to
> be in person.
I've mentioned the two examples that jump to my mind already, I think.
> * Did you make a new friend or meet anyone you'd like to be friends
> with?
I think the entire con constituted people I'd like to be friends with.
On the other hands, I already think of most of them as my friends. I
enjoyed listening to local-Vegas-Michael-who-I-don't-think-posts-here
talk about his move to Vegas. He seemed like an interesting an fun guy,
who I didn't really get to talk to very much. The trip to get groceries
with Joe was fun, too. I'd seen Joe before, but never met him. He's a
fun person.
> * Are you planning to attend the next alt.polycon?
This is as yet unknown. Our travel plans may not permit it, but we'll
figure that out when it's closer and the dates are firmly set.
Miche
Lissa McCollum <liss...@cox.net> wrote:
> Anyone have a working transporter yet?
If fscking Customs will ever let me have the beta field generator I
bought from the Russians, I might have a fighting chance.
Miche
--
Electricians do it in three phases
Vron McIntyre
> Can you get Disney Chemicals for a whole GROUP of folks?
Oh yes. :-)
Vron, looking forward to APC18
rmj...@gmail.com
> Because somebody's got to do it. (-:
Very true!
> THE QUESTIONS:
>
> * What did you hear or see during the con that made you think?
The discussion about chosen family and trying to be considerate of
people who *don't* wish to support my family choices. Also, the
"Design your poly house" panel where everyone reached the same
conclusion: the perfect house has a communal bathing area.
> * What happened during the con that made you laugh?
Just one?
My favorite is outside of the con, when Oksana and I discovered quite
by accident my artistic namesake (he's even from Chicago!).
> * What happened during the con that touched you (and maybe even made
> you cry)?
Seeing how much astral alice's mom enjoyed herself.
> * What was a moment during the con where you felt included or desired?
> Tell about it if you want.
Just that people remembered me even though I haven't posted to the
newsgroup in Internet eons.
> * What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
"I didn't know there was a level of excess beyond 'wretched.'" --me
about Las Vegas architecture.
"Your mother's breasts are positively Rivkanian." --me to astral alice
and her mom after dinner Sunday night.
> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt wistful? Tell
> about it if you want.
No wisting for me.
> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt bowled over by
> another attendee's beauty or eloquence? Tell about it if you want.
Seeing Guy and Carol at the brunch together, with him in his natty hat
and bowling shirt, looking like quite the Vegas poker dude and she
beaming on his arm. I actually have a photo of them like that,
too. :-)
> * Was there a question you wanted to ask during the weekend that you
> didn't get a chance to ask? Tell what it was if you want.
Nope, all questions asked (and received favorable replies, even!).
> * Tell about a piece of relationship advice (that you or another
> attendee shared) that felt really useful to you.
"Are you helping them to help them or to satisfy your own fucking
ego."
> * What did you like most/least about Las Vegas?
Most: this is the most aggressively customer service oriented place
I've ever visited, as exemplified by the drivers, waitstaff, poker
dealers and other people who answered my Vegas newbie questions with
charm and thoroughness.
Least: this is the most aggressively customer service oriented place
I've ever visited, as exemplified by the human spamming of the "Girls
To Your Door in 20 Minutes" business.
> * Tell about someone you met that you hadn't met before.
astral alice's mom is a nifty, grey haired woman with a bright smile,
clear eye and (yes) Rivkanian architecture. More importantly she seems
to have a zest for life that I rarely see in people a third her age.
If she lived on this side of the Atlantic, I'd have been sorely
tempted to chat her up rather than just chatting with her.
> * Tell about a time that fed you socially/emotionally.
RA looking up the info on The Fashionistas show. she knows I like
dance and burlesque and fetish-y stuff and this show was right down my
alley; I know that some of this isn't that big a thing for her. She
found it and helped make arrangements for us to get tickets. Thanks,
love!
> * Tell about a time that drained you socially/emotionally.
Being asked to be funny on the spot.
> * Did you make a new friend or meet anyone you'd like to be friends
> with?
Yes.
> And finally, my addition:
>
> * Are you planning to attend the next alt.polycon?
No, money and timing will be working against me. I'm hoping to make
the 2009 APC.
RJ
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
>> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt bowled over by
>> another attendee's beauty or eloquence? Tell about it if you want.
>
> Seeing Guy and Carol at the brunch together, with him in his natty hat
> and bowling shirt, looking like quite the Vegas poker dude and she
> beaming on his arm. I actually have a photo of them like that,
> too. :-)
I saw someone else's photo, probably taken at the same time, and it was
lovely. I forgot to put it in my summary, but I had meant when I was
thinking this over in my head to mention both Guy and Carol together and
Guy and Carol individually as having been quite cute, dashing and
lovely, respectively.
This is what happens when you're asked to recognize people's beauty at
an entire con of beautiful people.
Stef
Tiger Spot <tiger...@mapache.org> wrote:
>I thought of a better way to phrase the distinction I was trying to
>make with "Traditional family is transitive": Traditional family is
>opt-out and chosen family is opt-in.
I agree with this phrasing, and I want to add that for me, part of what
makes someone family is that the option that I opted-in for becomes
fixed. I mean, there's a tie between us that can't be broken casually,
even if we stop getting along as well as we originally did when I opted
in.
>> I'd still like to hear what people
>>use as markers of who is family and who isn't.
>
>I have no idea. Someone in that panel mentioned something like "We all
>know who's in our family, however we define it," and I realized that I
>really don't. It's very fuzzy for me.
I know who I think is in my family, but sometimes people surprise me
(mostly in a positive way, by showing up to help with some unpleasant
circumstance where I didn't expect them to show up).
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef
**
Would you harbor me? would I harbor you?
Would you harbor me? would I harbor you?
Would you harbor a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew? A heretic, convict, or spy?
Would you harbor a runaway woman or child? A poet, a prophet, a king?
Would you harbor an exile or a refugee? A person living with AIDS?
Would you harbor a tubman, a garrett, a Truth? A fugitive or a slave?
Would you harbor a Haitian, Korean, or Czech? A lesbian or a gay?
-- Ysaye M. Barnwell
Serene
that aren't just "Awwwww!", but I'm really enjoying reading them.
Serene
Serene
>> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt bowled over by
>> another attendee's beauty or eloquence? Tell about it if you want.
>
> Seeing Guy and Carol at the brunch together, with him in his natty hat
> and bowling shirt, looking like quite the Vegas poker dude and she
> beaming on his arm. I actually have a photo of them like that,
> too. :-)
Want!!
:-)
Serene
Lissa McCollum
> Pat Kight wrote:
>
>
> Can you get Disney Chemicals for a whole GROUP of folks?
I did!
>
> And Lissa. I'm really not sure WHAT I expected, but it wasn't what was
> there. And what was there was....magnificent. Especially in that dress
> for Zumanity. <fans face quickly, then remembers Oksana and HER
> outfit...oh dear, I won't be needing the heat on tonight, will I?>
>
*blush*
Thanks. I'm still riding on the high from that evening. :)
-Lissa
Aqua
> Keep these coming, folks. I don't have much in the way of responses that
> aren't just "Awwwww!", but I'm really enjoying reading them.
Seconded.
Aqua
Phoenix
> Mon, 04 Feb 2008 10:18:32 -0800 tikte dan wel citeerde Pat Kight:
>>* Tell about a piece of relationship advice (that you or another
>>attendee shared) that felt really useful to you.
> Phoenix about a priority basket for laundry that really, really,
> really needs doing TODAY. Or at least needs doing first.
Much as I would love to take credit for that, I can't. It wasn't
me...though I think you were sitting next to me at the time. And I can
point to "where in the circle relative to where we were sitting" the
answer came from but I am unable to put a face to it! Ruth Anne,
perhaps, or Joanna?
>>* Tell about someone you met that you hadn't met before.
> Ehm... I met 40 georgeous new friends. And mentioning a few of those
> would not do the others justice.
> But I am gonna make one exemption: I'm really glad to have met
> Phoenix.
Aw shucks.....thanks! (And I'm hoping it's not the same mix-up as above
<g> 'cause this one I *want* the credit for...) Likewise, my dear. You
were a very bright spot in an already bright weekend for me.
Deborah
Lissa McCollum
> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:17:53 -0700, Lissa McCollum <liss...@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Pat Kight wrote:
>
>
>>>* What did you hear or see during the con that made you think?
>>
>>The final panel that I went to, on Chosen Family. I'm still
>>mulling over what my various definitions of family are.
>>Slippery word, that.
>
>
> I thought of a better way to phrase the distinction I was trying to
> make with "Traditional family is transitive": Traditional family is
> opt-out and chosen family is opt-in.
Yes...and yet no? I chose Shane. We're not married, can't
get married as long as I'm married to Eric, etc. But we
have blended in a way that is very similar to traditional
family. Once his folks accepted us as Shane's chosen family, the
rest of his kinfolk came along for the ride. And now there
are his grandmothers and sister and sister's fiance and cousins
and uncles and and...and somehow they are all my family, even
though we have no legal ties. And I wouldn't have thought
to choose most of these folks for myself.
So there can be a murky middle ground there. Yes, if Shane
& I split up the rest of this family tree would probably
disappear, so in that sense they are opt-out-able. And I
didn't have to claim them as mine. But they are his kin, and
he is my family, so in some sense that makes them mine.
Shane is chosen family. The rest of his kinfolk just appeared.
Still murky in my thoughts. Working on it.
>
>
>>I'd still like to hear what people
>>use as markers of who is family and who isn't.
>
>
> I have no idea. Someone in that panel mentioned something like "We all
> know who's in our family, however we define it," and I realized that I
> really don't. It's very fuzzy for me.
>
*nod* Which is why I started noodling over what marks
people as family in my mind.
>
>>My examples
>>at the time, off the top of my head: family is granted some
>>authority over my children,
>
>
> Actually, I was curious what you meant by that. I would assume that a
> teacher would have some authority over the children, but not count as
> family. Is there a more specific kind of authority that you meant?
Lets see if I can get this into words...
A teacher, a doctor, a policeman...these all have limited authority
in certain circumstances. That is an official society role, and not
exactly what I was talking about. Let me see if I can talk my
way into this.
I'll start with this: I am very protective of my children. I take
primary responsibility for them. I gave up my social work career
so I could be the stay at home mother, and guide them and
give them a solid foundation. I take this job very seriously.
I noticed when the kids were younger that if there were too many
adults trying to tell them what to do, they would get to the point
that all the corrections were just so much noise. It all got blocked
out, and they wouldn't obey anyone--including me and Eric. So I
had to be pretty specific about who they had to listen to, and
who they didn't. We often had a house full of friends over, and
some of them just assumed they could tell the kids what to do and
what not to do. I had to step in many times and ask them to stop
doing that, unless the kids were in danger or were going to do
something that endangered others, or were invading their space.
"Kevin, don't!," coming constantly from 7 different directions
is the opposite of useful, you know?
So. Say the kids wanted another cookie. Eric or I could tell them
no, and they would need to mind us. A random friend doesn't have
the authority to tell them yes or no, however. But what about their
Grandmother? Or Aunt? Hmmm. Final authority rests with me, but
they should listen to their Aunt. And if Grandma asks them not
to swear, they should listen to that, too. Family members have, in
my mind, an abbreviated set of parenting rights. That comes
with the territory, but may be revoked (by me) if those rights are
abused.
When Shane moved in with us, one of the things we all had to
adjust to was the fact that he was granted parenting rights.
The kids now had three parents who had to be obeyed. The fact
that I trusted him with my most precious responsibility was
a huge step for us.
Oh! I just had a memory bubble to the top. I just figured
out where this one came from for me, and the perfect example
of what I mean. When I was growing up, my family was very
close to another family. Both couples had gone to high school
together. They were in each other's weddings. We had
Thanksgiving together every year. We went on summer
vacations together (hey, another 'family' marker!). And early
on, one of the mothers told one of the other family's kids
not to do something. It might have been wanting a cookie
actually. :) The little girl smarted back, "You're not
my mother!" At just that moment, her own mom came around
the corner and replied, "Yes, but she's Becky. Do what you're
told." That story is retold regularly by my parents, cementing
the fact that we are all chosen family.
-Lissa
Phoenix
> Tue, 05 Feb 2008 14:28:42 -0800 tikte dan wel citeerde Phoenix:
> Oops...
> But you mentioned you had some tips to share with me about organising
> and 'herding' my clan didn't you? We probably take that to email?
Yes, that's a good idea. By the end of the panel I had forgotten that
I'd offered. Having two partners and a son with ADD, and much
cat-herding experience (of the feline and the human varieties), I think
I have some good tips to share. Look for an email at my next work break
(really, I AM supposed to be working today).
>>Aw shucks.....thanks! (And I'm hoping it's not the same mix-up as above
>><g> 'cause this one I *want* the credit for...) Likewise, my dear. You
>>were a very bright spot in an already bright weekend for me.
> Nope this is definitely no mixup :)
<grin!>
Now I really wish I'd gone to dinner Saturday with the bunch of you. And
I way hope I can pull things together to go to the Netherlands next May.
Guess a passport would help, perhaps?
Deborah
still Disney-fied
David Weinshenker
> [...] one panel where some one asked whether
> it was ok to tell friends "I love you"
Well, is it? :)
(Did the panel reach anything like a consensus on that?)
-dave w
(who often wants to tell friends that but is usually too shy!)
Lissa McCollum
> Tue, 05 Feb 2008 23:44:28 +0100 tikte dan wel citeerde sio:
>
>
>>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:38:12 -0700 tikte dan wel citeerde Lissa McCollum:
>>
>>
>>>When Shane moved in with us, one of the things we all had to
>>>adjust to was the fact that he was granted parenting rights.
>>>The kids now had three parents who had to be obeyed. The fact
>>>that I trusted him with my most precious responsibility was
>>>a huge step for us.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> (which reminds me of one panel where some one asked whether it was ok
> to tell friends "I love you")
>
>
I hope so. Because I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy, and
have a big grin on my face right now. :)
-Lissa
Cheryl Martin
sio <sio-a...@polderdom.nl> wrote:
>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:15:55 +0000 tikte dan wel citeerde Irfon-Kim
>Ahmad:
>
>>
>>
>>This is what happens when you're asked to recognize people's beauty at
>>an entire con of beautiful people.
>
>
Very much agreed!
Cheryl
(still awed)
--
*Moderator: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated ,sci.space.moderated *
*http://www.grumpywitch.org http://dragonnette.livejournal.com *
*I am grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are grey. *
*We stand between the darkness and the light. ---JMS *
Cheryl Martin
sio <sio-a...@polderdom.nl> wrote:
>
>But then: I really need to come to Phoenix (both the city and the
>person <grin>).
>
>I'm gonna work out travelling plans that include New York, Phoenix,
>Vegas (HMM insists) and the SF/Bay-area.
We would come up from Tucson to say hello!
Cheryl
(enjoyed meeting sio and Phoenix very, very much)
Lissa McCollum
>
> Yep a passport would help.
>
> But then: I really need to come to Phoenix (both the city and the
> person <grin>).
>
> I'm gonna work out travelling plans that include New York, Phoenix,
> Vegas (HMM insists) and the SF/Bay-area.
>
>
Let me know if and when you get to the Phoenix area.
(The city, that is.) I'd love to take you out to dinner,
if it fit into your plans.
-Lissa
Oksana
* What did you hear or see during the con that made you think?
I'm afraid that my brain was on auto-pilot for much of the con. Not
much thinking took place.
* What happened during the con that made you laugh?
When RJ and Alan stuffed money into my bustier during the brunch. I
think that was the most I've laughed in a while. :)
* What happened during the con that touched you (and maybe even made
you cry)?
How helpful everyone was throughout the con - pitching in wherever they
could - cleaning the consuite, picking up stuff for the con, offering
to help out. :)
* What was a moment during the con where you felt included or desired?
Tell about it if you want.
I'd probably say the moment when I offered to pose in the bustier and
skirt (I had had a top overtop of the bustier) and suddenly a fleet
of cameras appeared out of nowhere. That was actually quite fun.
* What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
I kept meaning to write them down..there were a few good ones. Alas,
my memory - she ain't so good anymore.
* Was there a moment during the con where you felt wistful? Tell
about it if you want.
Other than wanting to take everyone home with me? Not really.
* Was there a moment during the con where you felt bowled over by
another attendee's beauty or eloquence? Tell about it if you want.
Lisa G always bowls me over whenever I see her. Her bright eyes, open
manner. I always feel instantly comfortable in her presence.
* Was there a question you wanted to ask during the weekend that you
didn't get a chance to ask? Tell what it was if you want.
I kept wanting to ask "is everything going okay?" "are you enjoying the
con?" "is there anything I could have done to make it better?" but I
really didn't want to look too worried.
* Tell about a piece of relationship advice (that you or another
attendee shared) that felt really useful to you.
I think that the best relationship advice actually came through my LJ
as the result of a local casual relationship thing that kind of reared
its head during the con (backstory - very conveniently located boytoy
suddenly decides that me having sex with other men makes me not "clean"
enough for him and tells me that he's going to go look for a
monogamous girl - two weeks later he suddenly texts me begging me to
come over).
Some good quotes:
"He insults you, then decides he's horny and you're, what? Convenient?
You don't need that."
"Great sex isn't worth this much drama, largely because you can get
great sex without the drama if you keep looking."
"Does he think you are 7-11? Open all night?"
"Desperation is so sexy."
"His idea of "making sure u were practising safe sex" is to call you
unclean, not to just talk to you about his worries. You have plenty of
respectful people in your life. You don't need that."
And while I did enjoy him while it lasted, I really can't get past
the initial dumping. I have some great friends who are good at helping
me see straight.
* What did you like most/least about Las Vegas?
Having everyone who came there be there. Being able to be the Las Vegas
sherpa for at least a little while on Sunday so that people could get a
taste of the strip.
What I liked least - how chapped my lips got. No matter how much water
I drank or how much lip balm I put on (and I *HATE* lip balm) you'd
think
that all of the moisture had been sucked out of me.
* Tell about someone you met that you hadn't met before.
There were a few people that I was meeting for the very first time and
didn't want to leave anyone out.
helen-louise's mum was an absolutely wonderful and fascinating woman - I
enjoyed every moment that I got to spend with her.
Sio was a wonderful person I'm glad that we had a chance to spend so
much time together shopping and hanging around.
Roxanne and Michael were absolutely fantastic and did so much work
locally to get food and stuff for the consuite without having met any
of us (well other than Aahz and Stef) beforehand. They were great
people to hang out with and chat with too. I wish I'd had more time.
Alan, Judy & Tony I didn't get to spend too much time with, but they
were all very friendly. I'm glad I got to meet them.
Kirsten was an absolute diva in purple! Again, didn't get enough time
with her, but hopefully will get a chance to get to know here better.
I was incredibly glad that Michael R could make it to the con. I'd
hoped he could and was definitely not disappointed. :)
* Tell about a time that fed you socially/emotionally.
Too many to count?
* Tell about a time that drained you socially/emotionally.
Too many to count? I didn't make it to hardly any panels because the
con/running of the con/stress about the con had me wanting to just
sit and stay in one place. Next time I'm going to manage to not
volunteer for anything, or if I do volunteer for anything, it will be
something that doesn't require me to do *anything* at the con.
* Did you get a new sweetie (or more than one) at the con? (Remember,
all questions are optional.)
Not a new sweetie, no.
* Tell about someone who was just as you expected them to be in
person.
I'm afraid that I didn't have any expectations going in.
* Tell about someone who was very different from what you expected to
be in person.
I suppose I expected Sio to have a much thicker accent than she did.
* Did you make a new friend or meet anyone you'd like to be friends
with?
Everyone?
And finally, my addition:
* Are you planning to attend the next alt.polycon?
I had not been planning to attend as it didn't look like we'd be able
to do the flights without a big financial windfall. However, it was
pointed out that Atlanta is only a 15 hour drive from Toronto. Suddenly
the trip is looking much more likely. :)
-Oksana
Tiger Spot
>THE QUESTIONS:
>
>* What did you hear or see during the con that made you think?
Many things. Among them:
A particular social situation is not what I thought it was. Lots of
thinking during the con.
What I said at the geek communication panel about there being things
in relationships that feel like punishments but aren't meant that way.
I need to think about that one some more. Talk about it, too.
The startling popularity of communal bathing in the Poly Dream Home
panel. (I didn't say these were *deep* thoughts.)
>* What happened during the con that made you laugh?
Deciding that flan counted as a cultural experience, so it was okay to
stay at the lunch restaurant for dessert instead of going to the
Cultural Differences panel (although I would like to hear a summary of
that one, because it sounded interesting). Among other things.
>* What happened during the con that touched you (and maybe even made
>you cry)?
Some of the stories that were shared at the Poly Parenting panel about
difficult times.
>* What was a moment during the con where you felt included or desired?
>Tell about it if you want.
I am Lissa's evil twin!
>* What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
I am hoping that helen-louise's notes make it somewhere I can see them
soon, because my memory was basically not working but I know there
were neat things being recorded.
>* Was there a moment during the con where you felt wistful? Tell
>about it if you want.
I brought my nice new bathing suit and there was no suitably warm
water to test it in. :(
Also, having so many people need to leave during those after-brunch
panels, or during brunch.
>* Was there a moment during the con where you felt bowled over by
>another attendee's beauty or eloquence? Tell about it if you want.
Beauty: At some point after a panel, I was standing around chatting
and happened to look up as Aahz was taking If's picture for the
theoretical calendar. I already knew If was good-looking, but that was
kind of a "whoa" moment.
>* Was there a question you wanted to ask during the weekend that you
>didn't get a chance to ask? Tell what it was if you want.
This is a question I didn't get to ask *in a panel I moderated*,
because we ran out of time. In the poly parenting panel, people were
sharing their expectations around how they and their parters would be
involved in their children's lives, and how sometimes those didn't
match up. What I wanted to ask after that was at what point one should
start discussing those expectations. First date? When pregnant? When
making a formal commitment?
>* What did you like most/least about Las Vegas?
Oh God the BLINKING. I muffed the directions for getting us to the
hotel, so we wound up driving the entire length of the Strip plus
some, because the address we went to was 70 blocks north of the
correct address. (Copy/paste error into Google maps. I felt dumb. I'm
glad one of the other people in the car had the *right* address.) By
the time we got to the right place, I was just so happy to be able to
look at the hotel from the parking lot and not have anything flashing
at me.
On the "most" end, some of the interior, non-blinking casino
decorations are really quite nifty in a kind of alternate-universe
way, but the only time I was in one this trip was after my partner and
I rescued his wife from the airport after her flight was canceled. We
were trying to get back to the restaurants by the hotel, but wound up
on some weird access road. I asked "What's this big gray building to
our right?"
"Mandalay Bay."
"The one with 23 restaurants in it? Right, we're stopping here."
And we wandered around a bit looking at statuary and fountains and
things, and eventually found a decent restaurant.
>* Tell about a time that fed you socially/emotionally.
Gosh, the whole con. I was particularly pleased when someone stopped
by at the brunch to say they thought I'd done a good job moderating a
panel; I was pretty nervous about that, so it was nice to hear
somebody liked it.
>* Tell about a time that drained you socially/emotionally.
I didn't really have any. I didn't go to all the panels this time, and
there were usually fewer people in the consuite when I was there than
at the last apc I went to, so that time was more relaxing.
>* Did you make a new friend or meet anyone you'd like to be friends
>with?
There are definitely several people I would like to get to know
better. Most of those weren't first meetings, but rather reminders of
just how awesome you people are.
>* Are you planning to attend the next alt.polycon?
Depends on the timing.
--Theresa
Tiger Spot
<drup...@clearspringlabs.com> wrote:
>Pat Kight wrote:
>> * Tell about someone who was very different from what you expected to
>> be in person.
>
>I thought Brooks would be...taller, somehow. And older. A bit more of a
>distinguished professor-type, than the cute young thing he is.
Isn't he, though? :)
>> * Did you make a new friend or meet anyone you'd like to be friends
>> with?
>
>See "sweeties" :-) And Roxanne. And Tiger Spot. And Ruth Anne (although
>I'd met her before). And...oh heck, ALL of 'em.
Aww. Yay!
(No content here. Clearly I have not recovered yet.)
--Theresa
Lissa McCollum
> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 22:44:40 -0800, Phoenix
> <drup...@clearspringlabs.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Pat Kight wrote:
>
>
>>>* Tell about someone who was very different from what you expected to
>>>be in person.
>>
>>I thought Brooks would be...taller, somehow. And older. A bit more of a
>>distinguished professor-type, than the cute young thing he is.
>
>
> Isn't he, though? :)
Yup. With rather impressive eyes, too.
-Lissa
Pat Kight
> Keep these coming, folks. I don't have much in the way of responses that
> aren't just "Awwwww!", but I'm really enjoying reading them.
Me, too. And I think my enjoyment is qualitatively heightened by having
attended the last few apcs - even though I had to miss this one, I can
mentally insert myself into the picture easily enough that I'm getting
great vicarious pleasure from reading everyone's reports. It sounds like
a wonderful con, and I'm glad you all had such lovely times!
--
Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Lissa McCollum
> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 10:18:32 -0800, Pat Kight <kig...@peak.org> wrote:
>
>
>>* Was there a question you wanted to ask during the weekend that you
>>didn't get a chance to ask? Tell what it was if you want.
>
>
> This is a question I didn't get to ask *in a panel I moderated*,
> because we ran out of time. In the poly parenting panel, people were
> sharing their expectations around how they and their parters would be
> involved in their children's lives, and how sometimes those didn't
> match up. What I wanted to ask after that was at what point one should
> start discussing those expectations. First date? When pregnant? When
> making a formal commitment?
>
My default expectation is that my non-primary
partners simply have a 'friend of the family' role
in my children's lives. The only times I've discussed
that expectation with a partner is either a) when they
assumed more authority over my children than I was
comfortable with, or b) when that non-primary status
seemed to be changing. In the one case of b, I remember
talking it over with my kids first.
I don't know. Would it be better to lay it out more
explicitly earlier in the game? Probably. But this
method of dealing with it as the question arose
seems to have worked so far.
What do other folk do?
-Lissa
Guy W. Thomas
<snip>
> I think the one that brought me up especially short was Guy's comment
> about people asking about his disability.
I do want to make it clear that my issue about people asking me about my
disability is mostly timing. It bothers me when the second or third
question out of someone's mouth is: So what's wrong with you? or why do
you use a wheelchair? I'm fine with people asking after they know me a
while and in the appropriate circumstances.
<snip>
>
> I wanted to ask Guy about his disability, but didn't dare :-) Or just
> didn't have a chance.
Ask me whatever you like.
--
Guy W. Thomas
San Leandro, CA
http://www.xango.org http://stonebender.livejournal.com/
"I have no discernible guilt about having het privilege. I have it, but
it's not my fault that I do. It is, however, my perception that I'm
responsible for trying to spread the privilege around a bit."
— Serene Vannoy, on being out as bi, poly and atheist
Guy W. Thomas
> rmj...@gmail.com <rmj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt bowled over by
>>> another attendee's beauty or eloquence? Tell about it if you want.
>> and bowling shirt, looking like quite the Vegas poker dude and she
>> beaming on his arm. I actually have a photo of them like that,
>> too. :-)
>
> I saw someone else's photo, probably taken at the same time, and it was
> lovely. I forgot to put it in my summary, but I had meant when I was
> thinking this over in my head to mention both Guy and Carol together and
> Guy and Carol individually as having been quite cute, dashing and
> lovely, respectively.
*blush* thank you. :-) We have an awfully cute picture of you and Serah
snuggling. We will be posting them once Carol gets them out of the camera.
>
> This is what happens when you're asked to recognize people's beauty at
> an entire con of beautiful people.
It is difficult (not that I mind struggling with this abundance).
Guy W. Thomas
<snip>
>> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt bowled over by
>> another attendee's beauty or eloquence? Tell about it if you want.
>
> Seeing Guy and Carol at the brunch together, with him in his natty hat
> and bowling shirt, looking like quite the Vegas poker dude and she
> beaming on his arm. I actually have a photo of them like that,
> too. :-)
Aww thank you sir. Oh, and as promised the URL for the shirts.
http://www.daddyos.com/index.html
Aahz Maruch
Lissa McCollum <liss...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>Oh! I just had a memory bubble to the top. I just figured out where
>this one came from for me, and the perfect example of what I mean. When
>I was growing up, my family was very close to another family. Both
>couples had gone to high school together. They were in each other's
>weddings. We had Thanksgiving together every year. We went on summer
>vacations together (hey, another 'family' marker!). And early on,
>one of the mothers told one of the other family's kids not to do
>something. It might have been wanting a cookie actually. :) The little
>girl smarted back, "You're not my mother!" At just that moment, her own
>mom came around the corner and replied, "Yes, but she's Becky. Do what
>you're told." That story is retold regularly by my parents, cementing
>the fact that we are all chosen family.
That's a neat story!
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
"Peer pressure is what you do to people who are not, in your opinion, peers."
--Dogbert
Aahz Maruch
>Vegas (HMM insists) and the SF/Bay-area.
Make sure to keep us informed!
Aahz Maruch
Oksana <okoshun @ ambienautica . com> wrote:
>
>Roxanne and Michael were absolutely fantastic and did so much work
>locally to get food and stuff for the consuite without having met any
> of us (well other than Aahz and Stef) beforehand. They were great
>people to hang out with and chat with too. I wish I'd had more time.
Actually, Michael & Roxanne had previously met several other attendees,
including Maureen/Chris and Jay/Cheryl.
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
> Beauty: At some point after a panel, I was standing around chatting
> and happened to look up as Aahz was taking If's picture for the
> theoretical calendar. I already knew If was good-looking, but that was
> kind of a "whoa" moment.
*blush*
Guy W. Thomas
> THE QUESTIONS:
>
> * What did you hear or see during the con that made you think?
Usually lots of things, this time I think the panel on poly cultural
assumptions morphed into a pretty interesting discussion that I'm still
thinking about.
>
> * What happened during the con that made you laugh?
I remember laughing quite a bit but I don't remember about what. RJ gets
me laughing. Debbie turning purple laughing at a random comment gave me
quite a laugh as well.
> * What happened during the con that touched you (and maybe even made
> you cry)?
Betsy bravely talking about some hard stuff. I also got quite choked up
talking about the difficult year my family and I had around health
stuff. Specifically my recent hospital stay with pneumonia, Serene's
thyroid operation and Carol's gall bladder surgery. The past year has
been really difficult for all of us and very hard on my self image.
I've said often that this year was my most emotionally difficult year
and yet it was the year that I felt most loved. I found myself crying
and was very comforted by sio, Teresa, Roxanne and even Aahz.
> * What was a moment during the con where you felt included or desired?
> Tell about it if you want.
Along with the kind reaction folks had to my crying. Michael Rosen made
some follow up comments on things I'd said that made me feel understood.
Holding hands with Sio. Getting a hug from Laura and Robert. It felt
so good to have so many people seem to be genuinely happy to see me.
> * What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
Oh dear, I'm not going to get this right, but I was talking about how I
don't really think of myself as attractive and when somebody complements
me on my looks I don't really believe them. Stef suggested that I think
about what it would be like, if a person complimenting me actually
thought I was attractive. What would that mean?
> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt wistful? Tell
> about it if you want.
Sure, when the con ended and I realized I wouldn't be seeing these folk
for a while and how few of them I'd been able to talk to as much as I
would've liked.
> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt bowled over by
> another attendee's beauty or eloquence? Tell about it if you want.
Ian Hagemann (I know I'm not spelling his name correctly) had a way of
verbalizing things I was thinking at the time. I very much enjoyed
seeing many attendees dressing up. Specifically, Oksana at the brunch,
Astral Alice in the plasticy thing with the pink ribbons, Teresa in the
purple-ish velour looking top with long sleeves made me want to stroke
her back. Sio at the brunch. Sarah in her purple outfit. Although it
wasn't exactly dressing up Lisa Geoffrion in a robe just out of a
Jacuzzi looks pretty darn good. As does Betsy in a bathing suit.
> * Was there a question you wanted to ask during the weekend that you
> didn't get a chance to ask? Tell what it was if you want.
Oh sure but that would have necessitated I be much more forward than my
natural shyness would allow.
> * Tell about a piece of relationship advice (that you or another
> attendee shared) that felt really useful to you.
I can't think of anything specific, but some of the things discussed in
the geek in poly panel was helpful.
> * What did you like most/least about Las Vegas?
So often I would assume that my being disabled would add complication to
playing poker or buying half-price tickets or whatever. Vegas really
makes a lot of the disability stuff non-issues. I love how everything
is just different. Nothing is on a normal scale. Lights are brighter,
blocks are bigger, casinos are huge. In a perverse way everything I
love about Vegas is also what I hate about Vegas.
> * Tell about someone you met that you hadn't met before.
Astral Alice is very charming. She was very supportive in all the panels
I attended. Making her unofficial support staff to programming in my
mind. On the panel I cochaired, she helped me keep track of the time
without my even asking. She's a real cutie and I love her accent.
> * Tell about a time that fed you socially/emotionally.
Many things I can't think of anything specific.
> * Tell about a time that drained you socially/emotionally.
Most conventions are socially and emotionally draining for me. APC 16
was less draining than most
> * Did you get a new sweetie (or more than one) at the con? (Remember,
> all questions are optional.)
Lots of old crushes, lots of new crushes but no new sweetie.
> * Tell about someone who was just as you expected them to be in
> person.
Sio was pretty much as I expected her to be.
> * Tell about someone who was very different from what you expected to
> be in person.
I can't think of anyone who was different from my online impression of
them, but I'm not great at forming opinions of how people will be in
person from knowing them online.
>
> * Did you make a new friend or meet anyone you'd like to be friends
> with?
Not that I can think of.
> And finally, my addition:
>
> * Are you planning to attend the next alt.polycon?
Probably not, unfortunately. I'm also not sure I will make the
Netherlands, but I'm going to try.
--
Guy W. Thomas
San Leandro, CA
http://www.xango.org http://stonebender.livejournal.com/
"I have no discernible guilt about having het privilege. I have it, but
it's not my fault that I do. It is, however, my perception that I'm
responsible for trying to spread the privilege around a bit."
? Serene Vannoy, on being out as bi, poly and atheist
Oksana
>> * What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
>
> Oh dear, I'm not going to get this right, but I was talking about how I
> don't really think of myself as attractive and when somebody complements
> me on my looks I don't really believe them. Stef suggested that I think
> about what it would be like, if a person complimenting me actually
> thought I was attractive. What would that mean?
I had a similar conversation with someone about attractiveness and
finding someone attractive and the response from the person that they
found to be attractive.
They had mentioned how hurt and sad they felt when the person who they
had told was attracted refused to believe that they were attractive.
I remember sitting back and putting myself in the other persons shoes
and thinking about how my rejection of their statement felt. That they
truly believed that I was attractive and I would bat away their
statement without a second thought because I didn't see myself as being
attractive.
And then I looked at the person that I was with, how much I loved their
body, their entire person and thought that it was impossible that
this person couldn't see the beauty that I saw in them.
I'm not explaining it well, but it was a realization that sunk in. Not
that I'm not still working on it, but it was a start.
-Oksana
Aahz Maruch
Phoenix <drup...@clearspringlabs.com> wrote:
>
>What did I like most about Las Vegas? Roxanne and Maureen :-) (and their
>spouses).
Roxanne doesn't have a spouse, she has a not-a-boyfriend.
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
>
>> * What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
>
> Oh dear, I'm not going to get this right, but I was talking about how I
> don't really think of myself as attractive and when somebody complements
> me on my looks I don't really believe them. Stef suggested that I think
> about what it would be like, if a person complimenting me actually
> thought I was attractive. What would that mean?
Before I get to the rest of this response, I'd like to say that I think
you're a truly gorgeous man. Now, that out of the way...
I had an exchange with someone once. I don't know if they want to be
identified in this context, but it was a post-alt.polycon exchange, so
if they do, they can pipe up. It was a really revelatory exchange,
though.
In it, they said that they hoped that I didn't mind them telling me that
they think I'm very attractive, or something to that effect.
I responded in my usual defense-mechanism way of saying that I don't
mind at all, but it might mean that I'd have to think them crazy.
They were really upset by that (and I felt really bad for hurting
someone who was trying to say something nice to me). They explained to
me that it was actually very insulting to their taste and their judgment
to have me respond that way. They explained it in a lot greater detail,
and better than I'm doing here, but it did sink in and made me think a
lot. Thereafter, I spent a long time trying to make sure to just say,
"Thank you."
I've fallen into my old ways of late, partly because I've been in a bit
of a low ebb, self-image wise, but also just because bad habits can
sometimes return if you're not vigilant. However, this post reminds me
that I need to work on that, because I think it's important. (And thank
you to the person who taught me that.)
Stephen Fry made a blog entry on fame, in which he recounts an exchange
that he had with John Cleese which I think is tremendously relevant.
You can read the entire (fascinating) blog entry here:
http://www.stephenfry.com/blog/?p=19
...but here is the relevant bit, reproduced without permission:
Compliments
The entire interaction works better if there's a little understanding on
each side. You might be the fortieth person that day to approach your
sleb. They might have just heard that their favourite aunt has been
diagnosed with cancer. On the other hand, the famous person should
remember that it takes courage to approach a stranger, especially one
you've only seen on TV or at the movies. They could so easily squash
you. Many newly made slebs fall down especially in the area of
compliments. It's perhaps a very English thing to find it hard to accept
kind words about oneself. If anyone praised me in my early days as a
comedy performer I would say, 'Oh, nonsense. Shut up. No really, I was
dreadful.' I remember going through this red-faced shuffle in the
presence of the mighty John Cleese who upbraided me the moment we were
alone.
"You genuinely think you're being polite and modest, don't you?"
"Well, you know ..."
"Don't you see that when someone hears their compliments contradicted
they naturally assume that you must think them a fool? Suppose you went
up to a pianist after a recital and told him how much you had enjoyed
his performance and he replied, 'rubbish, I was awful!' You would go
away thinking you were a poor judge of musicianship and that he thought
you an idiot."
"Yes, but I can't agree with someone if they praise me, that would sound
so cocky. And anyway, suppose I do think I was awful?" (which most of
the time performers do think of themselves, of course.)
"It's so simple. You just say thank you. You just thank them. How hard
is that?"
You must think me the completest kind of arse to have needed to be told
how to take a compliment, but it was an important lesson that I
(clearly) never forgot. So bound up with not wanting to look smug and
pleased with ourselves are we that we forget how mortifying it is to
have compliments thrown back in one's face.
Kai Jones
On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 20:41:55 +0000, Oksana <oko...@ambienautica.com>
published this:
When I started working on this, the way I framed it to myself was that
failing to accept a compliment as true and at face value means that I
am disrespecting the person who gave it to me. Sometimes that's
okay--random strangers' compliments may not deserve respect, or I
might know a person well enough to be biased against their judgment.
But most people I know at all would not give an insincere compliment,
so if I respect them as people I have to respect their judgment of me
to some extent.
--
Kai Jones sni...@pacifier.com
Alt.polyamory Newsgroupie
Make a small loan, Make a big difference - Kiva.org
Guy W. Thomas
> Guy W. Thomas <gu...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>> Pat Kight wrote:
>>
>>> * What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
>> Oh dear, I'm not going to get this right, but I was talking about how I
>> don't really think of myself as attractive and when somebody complements
>> me on my looks I don't really believe them. Stef suggested that I think
>> about what it would be like, if a person complimenting me actually
>> thought I was attractive. What would that mean?
>
> Before I get to the rest of this response, I'd like to say that I think
> you're a truly gorgeous man. Now, that out of the way...
In my continuing effort to work on this, thank you.
> I had an exchange with someone once. I don't know if they want to be
> identified in this context, but it was a post-alt.polycon exchange, so
> if they do, they can pipe up. It was a really revelatory exchange,
> though.
>
> In it, they said that they hoped that I didn't mind them telling me that
> they think I'm very attractive, or something to that effect.
>
> I responded in my usual defense-mechanism way of saying that I don't
> mind at all, but it might mean that I'd have to think them crazy.
>
> They were really upset by that (and I felt really bad for hurting
> someone who was trying to say something nice to me). They explained to
> me that it was actually very insulting to their taste and their judgment
> to have me respond that way. They explained it in a lot greater detail,
> and better than I'm doing here, but it did sink in and made me think a
> lot. Thereafter, I spent a long time trying to make sure to just say,
> "Thank you."
Yeah I often respond in similar ways. Thinking I'm just making little
joke at my expense, but you're right.
> I've fallen into my old ways of late, partly because I've been in a bit
> of a low ebb, self-image wise, but also just because bad habits can
> sometimes return if you're not vigilant. However, this post reminds me
> that I need to work on that, because I think it's important. (And thank
> you to the person who taught me that.)
Same here. It's not like I don't know this stuff, I just need to be
reminded on occasion. I mean I have some pretty incredible, beautiful,
intelligent women in my life and they seem to think I look all right. I
just need to work on believing them.
> Stephen Fry made a blog entry on fame, in which he recounts an exchange
> that he had with John Cleese which I think is tremendously relevant.
> You can read the entire (fascinating) blog entry here:
>
> http://www.stephenfry.com/blog/?p=19
Thanks for the link.
I'm not snipping the rest of your message in the hopes that people will
reread. It never hurts to hear this stuff again. For what it's worth,
I've always thought you were a very good looking man and from what I
hear I'm not alone in this opinion.
--
Guy W. Thomas
San Leandro, CA
http://www.xango.org http://stonebender.livejournal.com/
"I have no discernible guilt about having het privilege. I have it, but
it's not my fault that I do. It is, however, my perception that I'm
responsible for trying to spread the privilege around a bit."
— Serene Vannoy, on being out as bi, poly and atheist
Teal
> Guy W. Thomas <gu...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
> > Pat Kight wrote:
> >
> >> * What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
> >
> > Oh dear, I'm not going to get this right, but I was talking about how I
> > don't really think of myself as attractive and when somebody complements
> > me on my looks I don't really believe them. Stef suggested that I think
> > about what it would be like, if a person complimenting me actually
> > thought I was attractive. What would that mean?
>
> Before I get to the rest of this response, I'd like to say that I think
> you're a truly gorgeous man. Now, that out of the way...
>
> I had an exchange with someone once. I don't know if they want to be
> identified in this context, but it was a post-alt.polycon exchange, so
> if they do, they can pipe up. It was a really revelatory exchange,
> though.
Um, I seem to recall having a conversation related to
this topic with you once. I dunno if it's me you're
thinking if, but if by chance it is, I'm fine with being
identified.
If it's someone else you're thinking of... well, um,
never mind. :-)
Teal
--
Mock him not for a heap of eels; speculate never on the
unfortunate
experiences with smurf puppets, boiled Listerine,
squeaky toys,
badly attached electrodes, and anchovy marmalade that
have made him
his present self... - Graydon Saunders
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
Thank you. :)
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
> Irfon-Kim Ahmad wrote...
>> Guy W. Thomas <gu...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>> > Pat Kight wrote:
>> >
>> >> * What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
>> >
>> > Oh dear, I'm not going to get this right, but I was talking about how I
>> > don't really think of myself as attractive and when somebody complements
>> > me on my looks I don't really believe them. Stef suggested that I think
>> > about what it would be like, if a person complimenting me actually
>> > thought I was attractive. What would that mean?
>>
>> Before I get to the rest of this response, I'd like to say that I think
>> you're a truly gorgeous man. Now, that out of the way...
>>
>> I had an exchange with someone once. I don't know if they want to be
>> identified in this context, but it was a post-alt.polycon exchange, so
>> if they do, they can pipe up. It was a really revelatory exchange,
>> though.
><snip discussion about accepting compliments gracefully>
>
> Um, I seem to recall having a conversation related to
> this topic with you once. I dunno if it's me you're
> thinking if, but if by chance it is, I'm fine with being
> identified.
>
> If it's someone else you're thinking of... well, um,
> never mind. :-)
:) In this specific case, it wasn't you I was thinking of, but I do
remember talking to you about this as well, and I do thank you for it
also. Sometimes it takes a lot of repetition to sink in.
Serene
> Guy W. Thomas <gu...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>> Pat Kight wrote:
>>
>>> * What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
>> Oh dear, I'm not going to get this right, but I was talking about how I
>> don't really think of myself as attractive and when somebody complements
>> me on my looks I don't really believe them. Stef suggested that I think
>> about what it would be like, if a person complimenting me actually
>> thought I was attractive. What would that mean?
>
> Before I get to the rest of this response, I'd like to say that I think
> you're a truly gorgeous man.
Usually, when I say "pot, kettle", I'm being snarky.
Serene, *doubleswoon*ing
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
Hee. :) *blush*
Vicki Rosenzweig
-0700:
>Tiger Spot wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:17:53 -0700, Lissa McCollum <liss...@cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Pat Kight wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>* What did you hear or see during the con that made you think?
>>>
>>>The final panel that I went to, on Chosen Family. I'm still
>>>mulling over what my various definitions of family are.
>>>Slippery word, that.
>>
>>
>> I thought of a better way to phrase the distinction I was trying to
>> make with "Traditional family is transitive": Traditional family is
>> opt-out and chosen family is opt-in.
>
>Yes...and yet no? I chose Shane. We're not married, can't
>get married as long as I'm married to Eric, etc. But we
>have blended in a way that is very similar to traditional
>family. Once his folks accepted us as Shane's chosen family, the
>rest of his kinfolk came along for the ride. And now there
>are his grandmothers and sister and sister's fiance and cousins
>and uncles and and...and somehow they are all my family, even
>though we have no legal ties. And I wouldn't have thought
>to choose most of these folks for myself.
Transitivity is weird, too. Adrian's other partner isn't someone
I'm that close to--but he's family in some senses, and if he's
sick or stressed, that may affect me, at least as much as
if her blood kin were sick or in similar levels of stress. (And
it diminishes as one goes further along the web. Andy cares
about Adrian and is affected to some extent by things in her
life, but not really in her other partner's.)
And when I chose Adrian, that came with her attachment
to specific children (who are not her kin legally, but she is
and wants to be involved in their lives). It's not the same
as having, in choosing (and being chosen by) Adrian, getting
the specific career, or the being from the midwest and now
settled happily in Boston. But neither are these things
separable from the totality of the person.
>
>So there can be a murky middle ground there. Yes, if Shane
>& I split up the rest of this family tree would probably
>disappear, so in that sense they are opt-out-able. And I
>didn't have to claim them as mine. But they are his kin, and
>he is my family, so in some sense that makes them mine.
>Shane is chosen family. The rest of his kinfolk just appeared.
>
>Still murky in my thoughts. Working on it.
>
>>
>>
>>>I'd still like to hear what people
>>>use as markers of who is family and who isn't.
>>
>>
>> I have no idea. Someone in that panel mentioned something like "We all
>> know who's in our family, however we define it," and I realized that I
>> really don't. It's very fuzzy for me.
>>
>*nod* Which is why I started noodling over what marks
>people as family in my mind.
>>
>>>My examples
>>>at the time, off the top of my head: family is granted some
>>>authority over my children,
>>
>>
>> Actually, I was curious what you meant by that. I would assume that a
>> teacher would have some authority over the children, but not count as
>> family. Is there a more specific kind of authority that you meant?
>
>Lets see if I can get this into words...
>
>A teacher, a doctor, a policeman...these all have limited authority
>in certain circumstances. That is an official society role, and not
>exactly what I was talking about. Let me see if I can talk my
>way into this.
>
>I'll start with this: I am very protective of my children. I take
>primary responsibility for them. I gave up my social work career
>so I could be the stay at home mother, and guide them and
>give them a solid foundation. I take this job very seriously.
>
>I noticed when the kids were younger that if there were too many
>adults trying to tell them what to do, they would get to the point
>that all the corrections were just so much noise. It all got blocked
>out, and they wouldn't obey anyone--including me and Eric. So I
>had to be pretty specific about who they had to listen to, and
>who they didn't. We often had a house full of friends over, and
>some of them just assumed they could tell the kids what to do and
>what not to do. I had to step in many times and ask them to stop
>doing that, unless the kids were in danger or were going to do
>something that endangered others, or were invading their space.
>"Kevin, don't!," coming constantly from 7 different directions
>is the opposite of useful, you know?
>
>So. Say the kids wanted another cookie. Eric or I could tell them
>no, and they would need to mind us. A random friend doesn't have
>the authority to tell them yes or no, however. But what about their
>Grandmother? Or Aunt? Hmmm. Final authority rests with me, but
>they should listen to their Aunt. And if Grandma asks them not
>to swear, they should listen to that, too. Family members have, in
>my mind, an abbreviated set of parenting rights. That comes
>with the territory, but may be revoked (by me) if those rights are
>abused.
>
>When Shane moved in with us, one of the things we all had to
>adjust to was the fact that he was granted parenting rights.
>The kids now had three parents who had to be obeyed. The fact
>that I trusted him with my most precious responsibility was
>a huge step for us.
>
>Oh! I just had a memory bubble to the top. I just figured
>out where this one came from for me, and the perfect example
>of what I mean. When I was growing up, my family was very
>close to another family. Both couples had gone to high school
>together. They were in each other's weddings. We had
>Thanksgiving together every year. We went on summer
>vacations together (hey, another 'family' marker!). And early
>on, one of the mothers told one of the other family's kids
>not to do something. It might have been wanting a cookie
>actually. :) The little girl smarted back, "You're not
>my mother!" At just that moment, her own mom came around
>the corner and replied, "Yes, but she's Becky. Do what you're
>told." That story is retold regularly by my parents, cementing
>the fact that we are all chosen family.
>
>-Lissa
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
"Heat death or cold, in randomness or Cause,
It is not how it ends, but what it was." --John M. Ford
Phoenix
> In article <13qg1eq...@corp.supernews.com>,
> Phoenix <drup...@clearspringlabs.com> wrote:
>>What did I like most about Las Vegas? Roxanne and Maureen :-) (and their
>>spouses).
> Roxanne doesn't have a spouse, she has a not-a-boyfriend.
'Scuse me, Roxanne. /spouse/spouse-equivalent/
betsy
> Because somebody's got to do it. (-:
we love you because you are willing to step up to the plate in
situations like these. :)
> THE QUESTIONS:
>
> * What happened during the con that made you laugh?
um, there were parts where i was asleep. i wasn't laughing much while i
was asleep.
> * What happened during the con that touched you (and maybe even made
> you cry)?
at introductions: "hi, i'm [name redacted] and i'm feeling better". i
was glad.
> * What was a moment during the con where you felt included or desired?
> Tell about it if you want.
people saying woohooo at me in my swimsuit. :)
> * What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
carol's line about her domestic partner and her wild partner.
> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt wistful? Tell
> about it if you want.
well, it's a little challenging going to a convention that is about
relationship geeking and about celebrating happy relationships while
entirely single. there was a bit of wistfulness on that subject
occasionally.
it's not like i spent the entire convention thinking about it, though,
because it was so great to see everyone, and i was so happy to be doing so.
> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt bowled over by
> another attendee's beauty or eloquence? Tell about it if you want.
clawfoot looked totally stunning in her purple brunch outfit.
past that, there was the traditional reminding myself that it's bad form
to drag people off to a corner, throw them to the ground, and start
nibbling on them. bad form! tempting in at least a few cases, though.
> * Was there a question you wanted to ask during the weekend that you
> didn't get a chance to ask? Tell what it was if you want.
um, so, since i was busy packing while it was going on, anyone want to
recap the poly parenting panel for me?
> * Tell about a piece of relationship advice (that you or another
> attendee shared) that felt really useful to you.
debbie and ianh (as usual) said a bunch of things that made me think. in
particular, i continue to ruminate on the scarcity model and if there's
any way to break my brain out of it.
> * What did you like most/least about Las Vegas?
it's very blinky. i don't like blinky.
i did like the mountains, though.
> * Tell about someone you met that you hadn't met before.
sio! who was a perfectly fabulous roommate. sleep with this woman if you
get a chance, everyone. ;)
> * Tell about a time that fed you socially/emotionally.
when i said at the end of the chosen family panel that we were going to
end it by joanna and i standing in the middle and everyone else hugging
us, and then everyone did. woo!
> * Tell about a time that drained you socially/emotionally.
thursday night was hard. i got there early, but felt out of sorts for
most of thursday.
> * Did you get a new sweetie (or more than one) at the con? (Remember,
> all questions are optional.)
nope. although if anyone who was there wanted to move to minnesota and
raise babies with me, you have my email address so we can discuss it. ;)
> * Tell about someone who was just as you expected them to be in
> person.
no one new. all the people i'd already met were just as i expected.
> * Tell about someone who was very different from what you expected to
> be in person.
i had no idea what sio would be like! so i was surprised, but in a good
way. she's neat. oh, and patrice! did not look like i had thought, was
not at all as i had thought. very surprising.
> * Did you make a new friend or meet anyone you'd like to be friends
> with?
i had not previously met k'shandra, and would have liked to spend more
time talking with her. michael rosen was also a new person to me and
more time talking with him would have been very nice. all the rest of
you who i already knew, you already know i'd have liked to spend more
time with you!
> And finally, my addition:
>
> * Are you planning to attend the next alt.polycon?
i am very much hoping to.
betsy.
Lisa Geoffrion
> Pat Kight wrote:
> > Because somebody's got to do it. (-:
>
> we love you because you are willing to step up to the plate in
> situations like these. :)
Okay! Posted on groups.google, so some people won't see this. Gonna
get a newsreader ... tomorrow? Sometime soon.
THE QUESTIONS:
* What did you hear or see during the con that made you think?
In the poly-kids panel, when Ruthanne and RJ were talking about the
adoption agency. I do not do well with rules. "It is better to ask
for forgiveness than permission" has always been one of my mottos.
But I greatly admired Ruthanne's decision to be very upfront about
being poly and about there being three adults who would parent their
children.
* What happened during the con that made you laugh?
RJ, at the Decadent Brunch, on seeing the dollar bill tucked under
Oksana's strap: Shaking his head, "That won't do!" and fishing out a
much larger denomination.
* What happened during the con that touched you (and maybe even made
you cry)?
I was so tired on Friday, and my partner Joe was so very sweet and
nurturing to me.
Also, I have been so touched by Pete's help in getting me back and
forth from the airport. Pete rocks.
* What was a moment during the con where you felt included or
desired?
When Aahz sat beside me in the consuite, and then moved to sit across
from me so he could see/hear what I was saying. I have no idea what
the group was talking about, but it was so cool to know that someone
wanted to hear *me*.
Also, when folks in the consuite agreed to listen to the WIP. If
settled himself and closed his eyes and I felt very much that he was
making a special space within himself for my words.
* What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you? *
Several, but damned if I can remember them.
* Was there a moment during the con where you felt wistful?*
A moment on Sunday when I realized that there were people that I
hadn't made the time to talk to - because I am superwoman, and Master
of Time, and should have *made* it all fit.
But Joe and I are making plans for a California coast trip...
* Was there a moment during the con where you felt bowled over by
another attendee's beauty or eloquence?*
I was pretty blown away by everybody. If is very beautiful. I could
stare at If for... a really long time. Aahz gives the most snuggly
hugs. There is something about Sara's perky little nose that is so
cute, and I keep smiling when I remember how Lissa bounced on her toes
as she showed off her lovely dress. I loved watching the interaction
amongst the different partners and all of the wonderful oh-there-you-
are! hugs and smiles.
* Tell about a piece of relationship advice (that you or another
attendee shared) that felt really useful to you.*
At the Decadent Brunch, I asked for some more personal advice and
Ruthanne, If, Sara and Oksana were very helpful.
* What did you like most/least about Las Vegas?
For me, Las Vegas had no sense of community; no this-is-my-town
feeling.
* Tell about someone you met that you hadn't met before. *
It was lovely to meet Sio. We did not talk tete-a-tete, but it was
very nice to hear her in the panels.
* Tell about a time that fed you socially/emotionally. *
Oh, everything. It was wonderful to reconnect with Joe.
* Tell about a time that drained you socially/emotionally. *
The sleep deprivation was pretty significant.
* Did you get a new sweetie (or more than one) at the con?*
No new sweeties. (grin) I think that all of our dance cards are
pretty full.
* Tell about someone who was just as you expected them to be in
person.*
Guy. Witty, smart and dashing.
* Tell about someone who was very different from what you expected to
be in person. *
Even though I've met them before, both Aahz and Stef still surprise me
- Stef because she is so quiet and Aahz because I've never met a
curmudgeon that giggled so much.
* Did you make a new friend or meet anyone you'd like to be friends
with?*
Yes! Everyone should come to Negaunee! There's lots of room and
though the neighbors might be curious at times, they mostly mind their
own business. Global warming is moderating the climate, and I think
that the whole area will start booming around 2020. Of course, I'll
be in the Northwest Territories by then...
And finally, my addition:
* Are you planning to attend the next alt.polycon?
Yep.
Tiger Spot
<gu...@speakeasy.net> wrote:
>Pat Kight wrote:
>> * Was there a moment during the con where you felt bowled over by
>> another attendee's beauty or eloquence? Tell about it if you want.
>I very much enjoyed
>seeing many attendees dressing up. Specifically, Oksana at the brunch,
>Astral Alice in the plasticy thing with the pink ribbons, Teresa in the
>purple-ish velour looking top with long sleeves made me want to stroke
>her back.
Thank you!
I liked the shirt you were wearing that day, too, with the spiffy red
stripe. Very distinguished.
--Theresa
Serene
> Irfon-Kim Ahmad wrote:
>> I've fallen into my old ways of late, partly because I've been in a
>> bit of a low ebb, self-image wise, but also just because bad habits
>> can sometimes return if you're not vigilant. However, this post
>> reminds me that I need to work on that, because I think it's
>> important. (And thank you to the person who taught me that.)
>
> Same here. It's not like I don't know this stuff, I just need to be
> reminded on occasion. I mean I have some pretty incredible, beautiful,
> intelligent women in my life
*beam*
> and they seem to think I look all right.
*grumble, grumble* All right. Hmph. *grumble, grumble*
> I
> just need to work on believing them.
Lots of thoughts come to mind here, none of which is meant to
criticize you, only to give some examples from the other side of
this not-believing-compliments thing:
1) I really am quite picky about partners, and if I wanted a partner
who was not my cup of tea physically, I could have one. I chose you.
2) What do I gain by telling you you look great to me if it's not
true? I get to have sex with you, true, but if I thought you
weren't hot, why would I *want* to?
3) In order to believe that I think you are really hot, it's not
necessary for you to believe that you ARE hot. That is to say, even
if you're not your own type, you can say to yourself, (as you indeed
appear to have done -- I'm just musing here) "Hm. I must be Carol
and Serene's type."
4) You look enough like my other partner and several of my crushes,
that it's fairly obvious to anyone who sees you that you're my type,
physically. :-)
>> Stephen Fry made a blog entry on fame, in which he recounts an
>> exchange that he had with John Cleese which I think is tremendously
>> relevant. You can read the entire (fascinating) blog entry here:
>>
>> http://www.stephenfry.com/blog/?p=19
>
> Thanks for the link.
Thanks from me, too. I really enjoyed this story.
> I'm not snipping the rest of your message in the hopes that people will
> reread. It never hurts to hear this stuff again. For what it's worth,
> I've always thought you were a very good looking man and from what I
> hear I'm not alone in this opinion.
If you weren't such a hetboy, you'd think he was scorching hot, I'm
betting. ;-)
Serene
Serene
> On Feb 6, 11:31 pm, betsy <be...@mooseparty.org> wrote:
>> Pat Kight wrote:
>>> Because somebody's got to do it. (-:
>> we love you because you are willing to step up to the plate in
>> situations like these. :)
>
> Okay! Posted on groups.google, so some people won't see this. Gonna
> get a newsreader ... tomorrow? Sometime soon.
I'm reposting so everyone can see:
Pat Kight
> But Joe and I are making plans for a California coast trip...
YOu know, I trust, that I'm situated conveniently between Joe and the
California Coast. And I have a cozy guest room. And a hot tub.
Helpfully,
--
Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Guy W. Thomas
Thank you! I just bought it recently. It was the first time I'd worn it
out. I really like it.
--
Guy W. Thomas
San Leandro, CA
http://www.xango.org http://stonebender.livejournal.com/
"I have no discernible guilt about having het privilege. I have it, but
it's not my fault that I do. It is, however, my perception that I'm
responsible for trying to spread the privilege around a bit."
— Serene Vannoy, on being out as bi, poly and atheist
Guy W. Thomas
>
> * Tell about someone who was just as you expected them to be in
> person.*
>
> Guy. Witty, smart and dashing.
*blush* Lisa thinks I'm dashing! *grin*
rmj...@gmail.com
> Aww thank you sir. Oh, and as promised the URL for the shirts.
>
> http://www.daddyos.com/index.html
*snap*snap* The dude abides.
Thank you, fellow hipster!
RJ
Brooks Moses
It was really nifty how you were so clearly enjoying playing for the
camera. I hope the pictures captured a bit of it.
- Brooks
--
The "bmoses-nospam" address is valid; no unmunging needed.
Brooks Moses
> Pat Kight wrote:
>> * What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
>
> Oh dear, I'm not going to get this right, but I was talking about how I
> don't really think of myself as attractive and when somebody complements
> me on my looks I don't really believe them. Stef suggested that I think
> about what it would be like, if a person complimenting me actually
> thought I was attractive. What would that mean?
I remember that conversation. There was something about ... oh, I don't
remember the words, but something like inherent compliments and specific
compliments. An inherent compliment is something that's inherently
about you: You have good taste in hats. A specific compliment is
something that's specific to the circumstance: You're wearing a nice hat.
And one of the things that people do, sometimes, is interpret one sort
of thing as the other -- for instance, I say you look nice, but maybe
you tell yourself it's just that you're wearing a nice hat, and so you
don't hear the compliment that's really inherently about you. (And this
can happen with criticism, too; someone tells me I'm late with a
project, and I might hear that I'm a failure and always late, for instance.)
Brooks Moses
> Lisa Geoffrion wrote:
>> On Feb 6, 11:31 pm, betsy <be...@mooseparty.org> wrote:
> <snip>
>> * Tell about someone who was just as you expected them to be in
>> person.*
>>
>> Guy. Witty, smart and dashing.
>
> *blush* Lisa thinks I'm dashing! *grin*
And she's right, too.
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
>> you cry)?
>
> at introductions: "hi, i'm [name redacted] and i'm feeling better". i
> was glad.
Yes!
Cheryl Martin
Lisa Geoffrion <ljg...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Also, when folks in the consuite agreed to listen to the WIP.
Jay would like to send you feedback though we didn't get to stay for
the entire reading. He's not a fan of fantasy but he was
impressed. May I pass along your email to him?
Cheryl
--
*Moderator: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated ,sci.space.moderated *
*http://www.grumpywitch.org http://dragonnette.livejournal.com *
*I am grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are grey. *
*We stand between the darkness and the light. ---JMS *
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
> Also, when folks in the consuite agreed to listen to the WIP. If
> settled himself and closed his eyes and I felt very much that he was
> making a special space within himself for my words.
:) I tend to be very critical in my feedback and I'm not good at
balancing it with positive feedback, so I'm never sure if my tacked-on,
"But I really liked it!" notes seem genuine. However, I really liked
it! I'd definitely buy the final book in a store.
> I was pretty blown away by everybody. If is very beautiful. I could
> stare at If for... a really long time.
*huge blush* Thank you. :) The sentiment is mutual!
> There is something about Sara's perky little nose that is so
> cute,
If you poke the tip, she scrunches it up in the cutest fashion
imaginable. :) (Also, she has a trailing 'h' on her name. :) )
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
> Irfon-Kim Ahmad wrote:
>> Tiger Spot <tiger...@mapache.org> wrote:
>>> Beauty: At some point after a panel, I was standing around chatting
>>> and happened to look up as Aahz was taking If's picture for the
>>> theoretical calendar. I already knew If was good-looking, but that was
>>> kind of a "whoa" moment.
>>
>> *blush*
>
> It was really nifty how you were so clearly enjoying playing for the
> camera. I hope the pictures captured a bit of it.
*hehe* Surprisingly, given by sometimes body issues, I do actually like
being photographed. I've had a few chances to pose for professional
photographers (a couple of times for newspaper articles and once for a
calendar shoot) and I had a lot of fun. I was a little frazzled when we
took those shots or I'd have tried some more poses. It only occurred to
me later that I should have rolled over and done at least one with my
head and hair over the edge of the settee thingy. :)
I have this constant war in me, where on the one hand I do have a lot of
self image issues (these days especially I have many more about the fur
than about being fat) but on the other hand I have a strong sense that
if someone doesn't step up and show themselves for the camera with these
out-of-the-mainstream-beauty-spectrum bodies then the people promoting
those issues win that round and other people like me feel less
represented and might be more afraid to appear themselves. Usually the
tie breaker is that I know some people I really like like to see
pictures of me. :)
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
When I say to Sarah, "See? So and so said you looked great!" she often
says, "They're just being polite," which is sort of a third kind of
translation that I think a lot of us do -- turning a positive thing
about us into a positive thing about the complimenting person, in our
heads. "Oh, it's not that I'm good looking, it's just that they're SO
nice that they." So I think that arguments that it's not actually a
nice thing to do to someone to deflect their compliment are especially
effective there.
Aahz Maruch
Irfon-Kim Ahmad <ir...@ambienautica.com> wrote:
>Lisa Geoffrion <ljg...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> There is something about Sara's perky little nose that is so
>> cute,
>
>If you poke the tip, she scrunches it up in the cutest fashion
>imaginable. :) (Also, she has a trailing 'h' on her name. :) )
Is it a silent 'h'?
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
"Peer pressure is what you do to people who are not, in your opinion, peers."
--Dogbert
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
> In article <23d0$47ab25d2$cef88b0b$20...@TEKSAVVY.COM>,
> Irfon-Kim Ahmad <ir...@ambienautica.com> wrote:
>>Lisa Geoffrion <ljg...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> There is something about Sara's perky little nose that is so
>>> cute,
>>
>>If you poke the tip, she scrunches it up in the cutest fashion
>>imaginable. :) (Also, she has a trailing 'h' on her name. :) )
>
> Is it a silent 'h'?
I believe so, but I'm having a hard time modelling how you would
pronounce "Sarah" with a non-silent final 'h'.
Pat Kight
> Wed, 06 Feb 2008 22:31:48 -0600 tikte dan wel citeerde betsy:
>
>
>>sio! who was a perfectly fabulous roommate. sleep with this woman if you
>>get a chance, everyone. ;)
>
>
>
> <giggle>
> Yes please, do.
Clearly, you need to reserve a *much* bigger bed for the next
alt.polycon. (-:
--
Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Guy W. Thomas
Just so Sarah knows, I'm not that nice. :)
Lisa Geoffrion
> In article <0ae65151-d627-4ace-a118-1416e33e8...@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> Lisa Geoffrion <ljge...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Also, when folks in the consuite agreed to listen to the WIP.
>
> Jay would like to send you feedback though we didn't get to stay for
> the entire reading. He's not a fan of fantasy but he was
> impressed. May I pass along your email to him?
>
> Cheryl
> --
> *Moderator: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated ,sci.space.moderated *
> *http://www.grumpywitch.org http://dragonnette.livejournal.com *
> *I am grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are grey. *
> *We stand between the darkness and the light. ---JMS *
Sure!
LJG
Stef
Brooks Moses <bmoses...@mail.dpdx.net> wrote:
>Guy W. Thomas wrote:
>> Pat Kight wrote:
>>> * What was the most memorable quote of the weekend for you?
>>
>> Oh dear, I'm not going to get this right, but I was talking about how I
>> don't really think of myself as attractive and when somebody complements
>> me on my looks I don't really believe them. Stef suggested that I think
>> about what it would be like, if a person complimenting me actually
>> thought I was attractive. What would that mean?
>
>I remember that conversation. There was something about ... oh, I don't
>remember the words, but something like inherent compliments and specific
>compliments. An inherent compliment is something that's inherently
>about you: You have good taste in hats. A specific compliment is
>something that's specific to the circumstance: You're wearing a nice hat.
There is cognitive psychology jargon about this. I couldn't remember the
terminology at the con, but Google just reminded me. It is called
attribution theory. When you explain something to yourself, you can
ascribe reasons that fit into the following categories:
External (it's due to something I have no control over) vs Internal
(it's due to something I did)
Situational (a specific occurrence) vs Persistent (a personality trait)
(not quite sure the last two are the correct terms).
So if the event is someone saying to you that you are attractive, you
can attribute it in any of the following ways:
"They're being polite" (external, situational)
"I picked a spiffy outfit" (internal, situational)
"They are a kind person." (external, persistent)
"I am an attractive person." (internal, persistent)
Attribution theory claims that people have tendencies to go for
particular kinds of attributions in particular cases. I find that if I'm
not happy with something that happened or my reaction to it, it can be
useful to try on different attributions.
I also find it's useful to blend them, and to drill down a bit. I am
very chary of using a superficial internal persistent most of the time
(except for "I am smart") but if I combine, say, "I have found some
friends who think I'm attractive, and who are willing to compliment me,
and I wore the sort of outfit that would please them, because I like
those sorts of interactions," I can feel good about my influence on the
event without making blanket pronouncements about my personality.
>And one of the things that people do, sometimes, is interpret one sort
>of thing as the other -- for instance, I say you look nice, but maybe
>you tell yourself it's just that you're wearing a nice hat, and so you
>don't hear the compliment that's really inherently about you. (And this
>can happen with criticism, too; someone tells me I'm late with a
>project, and I might hear that I'm a failure and always late, for instance.)
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef
**
"If I had known you were a virgin, I'd have taken more time."
"If I had known you had more time, I'd have taken off my pantyhose."
Serene
> Brooks Moses <bmoses...@mail.dpdx.net> wrote:
>> Irfon-Kim Ahmad wrote:
>>> Tiger Spot <tiger...@mapache.org> wrote:
>>>> Beauty: At some point after a panel, I was standing around chatting
>>>> and happened to look up as Aahz was taking If's picture for the
>>>> theoretical calendar. I already knew If was good-looking, but that was
>>>> kind of a "whoa" moment.
>>> *blush*
>> It was really nifty how you were so clearly enjoying playing for the
>> camera. I hope the pictures captured a bit of it.
>
> *hehe* Surprisingly, given by sometimes body issues, I do actually like
> being photographed.
I've always liked being photographed, but strangely, I rarely like
the photos that result, not because I think I look ugly or anything,
but because they don't look like me to me. There are some
exceptions, like the photo Lisa Cohen took of me at the San Diego
alt.polycon, which is so far my very favorite photo of myself.
> I have this constant war in me, where on the one hand I do have a lot of
> self image issues (these days especially I have many more about the fur
> than about being fat)
Fur is hot. Just sayin'. (My mom made some comment about the hair on
one of my partners' backs, and I just made yummy-growly noises, and
she said "Fine, never mind." ;-)
> but on the other hand I have a strong sense that
> if someone doesn't step up and show themselves for the camera with these
> out-of-the-mainstream-beauty-spectrum bodies then the people promoting
> those issues win that round and other people like me feel less
> represented and might be more afraid to appear themselves.
Just another reason why you rock. I told folks elsewhere about the
belly picture I have of myself that's up on a networking site, and
sparked a dozen or so of its members to post their hot pics of
themselves. Almost all of them talked about it being one of the most
terrifying things they'd done. Even the ones who I think are WAY
closer to conventional beauty than I am. It felt good to just add
that to the dialogue, you know?
> Usually the
> tie breaker is that I know some people I really like like to see
> pictures of me. :)
Oh. Yeah.
Serene
Serene
> Irfon-Kim Ahmad wrote:
>> When I say to Sarah, "See? So and so said you looked great!" she often
>> says, "They're just being polite," which is sort of a third kind of
>> translation that I think a lot of us do -- turning a positive thing
>> about us into a positive thing about the complimenting person, in our
>> heads. "Oh, it's not that I'm good looking, it's just that they're SO
>> nice that they." So I think that arguments that it's not actually a
>> nice thing to do to someone to deflect their compliment are especially
>> effective there.
>
> Just so Sarah knows, I'm not that nice. :)
>
He's totally not. ;-)
Serene
Serene
> Thu, 07 Feb 2008 00:42:58 -0800 tikte dan wel citeerde Brooks Moses:
>
>> Guy W. Thomas wrote:
>>> Lisa Geoffrion wrote:
>>>> On Feb 6, 11:31 pm, betsy <be...@mooseparty.org> wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>> * Tell about someone who was just as you expected them to be in
>>>> person.*
>>>>
>>>> Guy. Witty, smart and dashing.
>>> *blush* Lisa thinks I'm dashing! *grin*
>> And she's right, too.
>>
>
>
Yep. :-) Also, it's been making me happy that Guy has taken to
buying himself clothes that really suit his sense of style. He just
totally makes that retro look work, doesn't he?
Serene
Serene
> Wed, 06 Feb 2008 22:31:48 -0600 tikte dan wel citeerde betsy:
>
>> sio! who was a perfectly fabulous roommate. sleep with this woman if you
>> get a chance, everyone. ;)
>
>
> <giggle>
> Yes please, do.
Yay! I was only waiting for consent. :-)
Serene
Teal
> Brooks Moses <bmoses...@mail.dpdx.net> wrote:
> > Irfon-Kim Ahmad wrote:
> >> Tiger Spot <tiger...@mapache.org> wrote:
> >>> Beauty: At some point after a panel, I was standing around chatting
> >>> and happened to look up as Aahz was taking If's picture for the
> >>> theoretical calendar. I already knew If was good-looking, but that was
> >>> kind of a "whoa" moment.
> >>
> >> *blush*
> >
> > It was really nifty how you were so clearly enjoying playing for the
> > camera. I hope the pictures captured a bit of it.
>
> pictures of me. :)
Me, for example. Jpg! Jpg!
Teal, helpfully
--
Mock him not for a heap of eels; speculate never on the
unfortunate
experiences with smurf puppets, boiled Listerine,
squeaky toys,
badly attached electrodes, and anchovy marmalade that
have made him
his present self... - Graydon Saunders
betsy
> I have this constant war in me, where on the one hand I do have a lot of
> self image issues (these days especially I have many more about the fur
> than about being fat)
i kinda like fuzzy. fuzzy can be good. an ex of mine used to get all
weird when i petted his fur, but i liked it.
betsy.
Aahz Maruch
betsy <be...@mooseparty.org> wrote:
>
>i kinda like fuzzy. fuzzy can be good. an ex of mine used to get all
>weird when i petted his fur, but i liked it.
<bats eyelashes> I like getting petted....
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
"A newsgroup thread is like a child. You put your heart into it, but it
still grows up the way it wants." --Michael Wileman
Pat Kight
> I have this constant war in me, where on the one hand I do have a lot of
> self image issues (these days especially I have many more about the fur
> than about being fat) ...
Mmmmmm, fur ...
Uh, I mean: You do realize that some people find hirsute men exceedingly
sexy, don't you?
--
Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Tiger Spot
Emphasize the second syllable, maybe? sa-RAH, with the first a a schwa
and the second as in "open your mouth and say 'ah'"?
--Theresa
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
> Irfon-Kim Ahmad wrote...
>> Brooks Moses <bmoses...@mail.dpdx.net> wrote:
>> > Irfon-Kim Ahmad wrote:
>> >> Tiger Spot <tiger...@mapache.org> wrote:
>> >>> Beauty: At some point after a panel, I was standing around chatting
>> >>> and happened to look up as Aahz was taking If's picture for the
>> >>> theoretical calendar. I already knew If was good-looking, but that was
>> >>> kind of a "whoa" moment.
>> >>
>> >> *blush*
>> >
>> > It was really nifty how you were so clearly enjoying playing for the
>> > camera. I hope the pictures captured a bit of it.
>>
><snip stuff> Usually the
>> tie breaker is that I know some people I really like like to see
>> pictures of me. :)
>
> Me, for example. Jpg! Jpg!
*hehe* I think I post links to all the pictures of me that seem to fit
the tenor of this newsgroup in my livejournal, which you've seen.
For links to pictures of me which may not necessarily fit the tenor of
this newsgroup, you're more than welcome to e-mail me (although for some
reason I thought I'd gotten a bunch of those to you already). :)
Phoenix
Works for me!
Deborah
gosh, Nederland is so far away...
Teal
True, true. I was actually referring to pics of you
taken at APC while you were hamming it up for the
camera, which I gather you don't have copies of but I
imagine some folk who might be reading this do.
Hmmm. I wonder if that counts as "indirect
communication", since I did enthuse pretty explicitly
about the desirability of viewing said pics, even if not
to the people who presumably took said pics. Heh. Life
is full of these interesting little conundra, isn't it?
:-7
Teal