i'm a 21 year old heterosexual man who has been dating a bisexual
woman for about 2 months. she is polyamorous. i have never been in a
relationship of that nature. i have been in only monogamous
relationships and never really challenged them ideologically.

my understanding of monogamy is something that has nothing to do with
ownership or control over the partner, nor does it have to do with
making a commitment to them. for me, when i reach a certain level of
love for another person i have a desire to know them on a deeper
level, to explore and embrace the inner workings of their person and
inversely to open up my own self for them to explore. for this to
happen i need or at least i think i need to stop seeing other people
so that i can be fully present for this partner.

secondly jealousy is a factor. as base an emotion as it is,
practically instinctual, i feel it very strongly knowing that she is
intimate with other people. i don't know what to do because i don't
particularly want to see other people but i feel like jealousy would
be a big factor if i was monogamous in a polyamorous relationship. the
woman i am seeing is an absolutely wonderful person and i don't want
to end things with her because of these differences yet i'm not sure
that it can work. ideologically i think polyamory is probably
evolutionarily more advanced than monogamy, which to my knowledge is
an institution formed subjectively and is used as a mechanism for
social control via sexual oppression. however as much as ive fought
against societies brand on my morality, rethought its doctrine,
discovered my own moral beliefs, and worked to apply them in my life,
this is one i still struggle with. i'm not sure if i should try to put
my moral beliefs over my emotional self and embrace this new type of
relationship, or if this would be a mistake in that i may not be ready
for it.  i'm not sure what i'm hoping for by posting this ive never
posted here before. if you have some insight on the situation i will
be greatly indebted.

You may not be a polyamorous person.  It happens.  It doesn't make you
"less evolved" any more than being heterosexual or liking vanilla does.

It's also quite possible that it's simply that the whole idea is very
new to you.  How long has your partner known about polyamory, and
thought of herself as polyamorous?  Would she be willing to give you the
same amount of time to get comfortable with the idea?   Have you talked
to her about how relationships feel to you emotionally?  Does she accept
that, or is she trying to argue you out of it "ideologically" (which
would make me take a large step backwards)

Even if it turns out you can be polyamorous, there are so many different
kinds of polyamory you and your partner could still be incompatible.

Aqua

In article <1192926907.650608.260...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,

Sounds reasonable. I also tend to want this from my partners.

Why? Why does what your partner does with something else affect how you
present yourself to your partner? Is it a question of not wanting to
make yourself vulnerable to a person who you feel you do not trust,
coupled with a feeling that you can not trust a person who is intimate
with someone else to be there for you? (This is a description I've heard
from a couple of people who identify as monogamous.) Something else
entirely?

In my experience, jealousy is not a simple emotion. It is an emotion
that rises from OTHER emotions, such as fear of being replaced, fear of
loss, a feeling of being threatened, fear of being superseded in your
partners time or affections, or something along those lines.

I have never successfully dealt with, nor personally known anyone who
has dealt with, jealousy without understanding what other emotion it is
rooted in.

Jealousy is not an automatic response, in the sense that it is not
"caused by" your partner's behavior. Rather, it is the result of your
emotional response to your partner's behavior. Your partner does
something, you feel like you might be replaced or you might lose your
partner or something like that, and then your jealousy arises from that
feeling. Ergo, you can't simply will it away; instead, in my experience,
you must understand that emotion that gives rise to the jealousy, and
deal with *it*. Take care of the original emotional reaction, and the
jealousy becomes easier to tame.

In my experience, it does not work that way. If you are jealous of Sue,
and you start relationships with Bettie and Ann and Alice, that will not
in any way eliminate your jealousy of Sue. Jealousy doesn't work that
way; its unique to your emotional response to Sue.

*shrug* There are people who would agree with oyu about polyamory being
more "advanced" and monogamy being about social control. I'm
polyamorous, and I'm not one of them.

I think there are people who are polyamorous by inclination or by nature
or whatever; people who are monogamous by nature or inclination or
whatever; people who can, under the right circumstances and with the
right partner(s) be happy either way; and that all this is just a normal
part of ordinary human variability. Neither is more "advanced" than the
other, evolutionarily or otherwise.

If you are a person who prefers monogamy, why drive yourself nuts or
beat yourself up believing that you "should" be polyamorous because
polyamory is "more advanced"? Go with the relationship model that
maximizes your happiness, and seek partners who prefer a similar
relationship model.

This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the
night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.

--
Photography, kink, polyamory, shareware, and more: all at
http://www.xeromag.com/franklin.html

[I don't have time for a detailed rebuttal, but since tacit is again
spewing disinformation, someone needs to counter it]

In article <tacitr-150C2D.20383721102...@netnews.comcast.net>,

Fear, fear, fear, that's all you ever talk about.  Many people feel
jealousy out of other emotions, and for some people, jealousy is a
simple emotion akin to anger or fear.

You have been told this before: you are wrong, unless you discount people
from alt.poly as "not personally knowing".
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6                        http://rule6.info/
                      <*>           <*>           <*>
"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades
will seriously cramp his style."  --SKZB, PJF

Wow, that's not my experience of it.  

I get jealous when I see what I wanted from my partner (and didn't
get) being given to someone else.  It's not fear of anything, it's
jealousy.  It's "that is supposed to be mine!"  
--
Kai Jones          sni...@pacifier.com  http://snippy.livejournal.com
Smartass by nurture as well as nature.  Oh yeah, and I'm contrary, too.

In article <cl8oh3ph3ta5k93l9j4karlj7i24alp...@4ax.com>,
Kai Jones  <sni...@pacifier.com> wrote:

I'm glad you are using my brain. My sinuses are too stuffed up to make
room for it.
--
Stef  **  s...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef
    **
"The dust in the streets, and the wind. Is it always like this now?"
        -- "And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place," Babylon 5

In article <cl8oh3ph3ta5k93l9j4karlj7i24alp...@4ax.com>,
 Kai Jones <sni...@pacifier.com> wrote:

I've heard that described as "envy" rather than "jealousy."

--
Photography, kink, polyamory, shareware, and more: all at
http://www.xeromag.com/franklin.html

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:33:55 -0400, tacit <tac...@aol.com> published
this:

In my head, envy is "I want that too."  Jealosy is "I want that taken
away from you and given to me" or "You can't have that, it's mine and
mine exclusively."  Is that not how most people use the words?
--
Kai Jones sni...@pacifier.com
"Comme c'est curieux, comme c'est bizarre et quelle coincidence!"  La Cantatrice Chauve by Ionesco

To me, envy parses as "They have that, and I want it, too," as
opposed to jealousy, which parses as "They have that, and I don't
want them to have it -- I want it to be MINE."

Serene

--
Spin the auto-sig generator, and she says:

I do not pretend to be able to prove that there is no God. I
equally cannot prove that Satan is a fiction. The Christian god
may exist; so may the gods of Olympus, or of ancient Egypt, or
of Babylon. But no one of these hypotheses is more probable than
any other: they lie outside the region of even probable
knowledge, and therefore there is no reason to consider any of
them. [Bertrand Russell]

In article <tidqh39q1vm50ffjq4vr9u3o5o9buj9...@4ax.com>,
Kai Jones  <sni...@pacifier.com> wrote:

Nobody knows how "most people" use those words; both ways are common in
the wild, which causes no end of confusion.  But tacit's claim about
definitions doesn't line up with his claim about jealousy being caused by
fear, which leads me to think he's just plain confused.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6                        http://rule6.info/
                      <*>           <*>           <*>
"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades
will seriously cramp his style."  --SKZB, PJF

Dunno about "most", but that's how I use them. And most folks I know,
too. (But my acquaintance circle is generally at the edges of all the
bell curves, so I wouldn't use it as a good statistical sampling technique.)

Deborah
(Explicit Bid for Sympathy: I just had my first (and I hope to Ghu my
LAST!!!) kidney stone. OWOWOWOWOWOWOW. (and some of those pain meds the
hospital can give you are Very Very Nice...))

In article <13hqm4f81v5n...@corp.supernews.com>,

May you heal quickly and continue to receive succor from Better Living
Through Chemistry [tm].
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6                        http://rule6.info/
                      <*>           <*>           <*>
"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades
will seriously cramp his style."  --SKZB, PJF

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:12:31 -0700, Phoenix

*Sympathy*!
--
Kai Jones          sni...@pacifier.com  http://snippy.livejournal.com
Smartass by nurture as well as nature.  Oh yeah, and I'm contrary, too.

<snip>

Oh my! Much sympathy, I can't imagine how much that must hurt.
--

Guy W. Thomas
San Leandro, CA
http://www.xango.org http://stonebender.livejournal.com/

"I have no discernible guilt about having het privilege. I have it, but
it's not my fault that I do.  It is, however, my perception that I'm
responsible for trying to spread the privilege around a bit."
— Serene Vannoy, on being out as bi, poly and atheist

OWWWWW!! All better now, I hope?

Serene
--
Spin the auto-sig generator, and she says:

"Basic Flying Rules: 1. Try to stay in the middle of the air. 2.
Do not go near the edges of it. 3. The edges of the air can be
recognized by the appearance of ground, buildings, sea, trees
and interstellar space. It is much more difficult to fly there." -
- http://safecopter.arc.nasa.gov/

Seems to be, yes...not quite *all* there, but oh my, so much better than
last night.

I deal with pain on a daily basis; it doesn't generally cause great
complaints. But last night I was rocking, crying, and wailing. It Would
NOT Stop. And...and..and...NO endorphins! That's just not fair. If it's
going to hurt that bad (and Tamara, who has had children and who had a
kidney stone two years ago, described it as "way worse than
childbirth"), the least I could get out of it is an endorphin rush. Darn it.

So glad I have honeys to take good care of me and take me to the ER when
needed. I could barely walk; I can't imagine trying to drive myself there.

Deborah
soon to be sassy again

In article <13hqqb8m2f7l...@corp.supernews.com>,

You're going to be a sassy brassy lassie?
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6                        http://rule6.info/
                      <*>           <*>           <*>
"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades
will seriously cramp his style."  --SKZB, PJF

In article <tidqh39q1vm50ffjq4vr9u3o5o9buj9...@4ax.com>,
Kai Jones  <sni...@pacifier.com> wrote:

That's also how I use the words. (Envy could also be "I want something
like that," as opposed to "I want that specific one.")

--
Stef  **  s...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef
    **
If a woman is shunned, it is...oftentimes something as simple as
expressing a slightly different belief or wearing an unapproved
color--small, small things as well as large ones. -- Clarissa Pinkola
Estes, Women Who Run With the Wolves

On Oct 22, 4:47 pm, Kai Jones <sni...@pacifier.com> wrote:

i don't know from "most people"; in the circles in which i talk about
such things your definitions are common, but i occasionally see the
reverse, which is very confusing.

i use envy like you do, but my concept of jealousy is odd.  it doesn't
have the "exclusively mine" connotation, but it definitely has the "i
don't want YOU to have it" undertone -- it is very specific to a
person who i consider a threat, and does not generalize to other
people.  however, most of all it feels like "what was mine is being
taken away from me, it's MINE and i want to KEEP it".

i feel jealous rarely, and i fit into tacit's concept of "there are
underlying emotions".  mine are imminent fear of loss and some anger
associated with that, and sadness.  i usually feel jealousy as a
warning sign, and the loss tends to be underway, if not explicitly
stated (ie. i have felt jealousy when i had the vague notion that a
partner was having something going on with somebody else, but neither
was i told nor was the partner necessarily even aware).

it's not relegated to partners and romantic r'ships either; i've felt
it with friends, and even at work.
--
-piranha

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 01:12:57 -0700, piranha <pleochr...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I have anger and frustration associated with jealousy usually.  But
not fear or sadness.  

Hmm.  I have felt jealous when what happened was not a loss (which I
think of as something I already had being taken away), but a failure
to get something in the first place.  E.g., I am jealous when my boss
asks a different secretary something that I either know or can do--or
when zie does it zirself instead of asking me to.   But the strongest
jealousy for me is when I have made a request of a partner, they have
said what I want isn't available from them at all (not just to me, to
anyone), and then I observe them giving it to someone else.  

So yeah, for me it's possible to be jealous in lots of relationships,
including work.
--
Kai Jones          sni...@pacifier.com  http://snippy.livejournal.com
Smartass by nurture as well as nature.  Oh yeah, and I'm contrary, too.

Ow. Yes, that. (Echoes of Poly Hell coming through here.)

Deborah
definitely perky today

*sympathy*

(My doctor, who's experienced both, says a kidney stone is much worse
than childbearing ...)

--
Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org

"Kai Jones"   wrote

Me neither, excepting that  I can feel a bit down about myself for being
jealous over trivialities.

That's the kind of jealousy to which I, too, am prone.

The boss example is the kind that has me feeling negative about myself.

The partner example is where  I feel angry as well as jealous:  I do so hate
to be messed around, told woppers or manipulated.

Ruth

Quoth Phoenix <drupp...@clearspringlabs.com> on Mon, 22 Oct 2007
19:12:31 -0700:

*explicit sympathy*: Oh dear. yes, I hope it's the last, and
that the hospital has given you enough of the nice pain meds.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
"Regret, by definition, comes too late,
Say what you mean. Bear witness. Iterate." --John M. Ford

Amazing.  My reactions are almost identical.  I cannot bear lying or
deception.  The Giant River Otter can sleep.

jimbat