On Mon, 01 Aug 2011 18:43:37 -0700, David Weinshenker <daz...@earthlink.net> wrote: >Chris Duck wrote: >> That hasn't happened to me, because I've saved >> in real money, not "dollars" or other fiat currencies.
>Isn't any form of money actually a "fiat currency", when >you get right down to it? Neither gold nor dollars would >be "worth anything", except for a cultural convention to >behave as if they are...
Yes, of course all value is subjective. The difference, to oversimplify, is who gets to decide what money is worth something. If it's by government edict, then it's fiat; if it's by the preferences of society in general, then it isn't.
On Mon, 01 Aug 2011 18:42:29 -0700, Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> wrote: >David Weinshenker <daz...@earthlink.net> writes: >> Chris Duck wrote:
>>> That hasn't happened to me, because I've saved in real money, not >>> "dollars" or other fiat currencies.
>> Isn't any form of money actually a "fiat currency", when you get right >> down to it? Neither gold nor dollars would be "worth anything", except >> for a cultural convention to behave as if they are...
>Gold does have some basic underlying value, since it's a useful industrial >metal. However, that underlying value is probably not $1600 an ounce.
>Someone invested in gold has done really well in the last ten years. I >wish them the best of luck with that (seriously -- a lot of the people >invested in gold are people who I think deserve to catch a few economic >breaks). It's not my investment play, since the rampant gold hucksterism >makes me think that it's a hell of a bubble, but it's a bubble that's >lasted a lot longer than I expected so I could be wrong.
If gold is in a bubble, then it would be the first one that the "usual experts" identified while it was in progress.
I think gold may get to bubbly extremes, but 5x in 10 years, with essentially zero public participation, doesn't qualify as a bubble as far as I'm concerned.
In article <60u247pd6o7qqpodrtnvtfg24h0uk7j...@4ax.com>, Chris Duck <chrisd...@coldmail.com> wrote:
>If it's by government edict, then it's fiat; if it's by the >preferences of society in general, then it isn't.
Most people prefer using US dollars to gold. It's easier. In fact, I don't recall ever seeing anyone attempt to make e.g. a food purchase with anything but dollars.
Todd Michel McComb wrote: > In article <60u247pd6o7qqpodrtnvtfg24h0uk7j...@4ax.com>, > Chris Duck <chrisd...@coldmail.com> wrote: >> If it's by government edict, then it's fiat; if it's by the >> preferences of society in general, then it isn't.
> Most people prefer using US dollars to gold. It's easier. In fact, > I don't recall ever seeing anyone attempt to make e.g. a food > purchase with anything but dollars.
If I had some gold, and I wanted to spend it as money, I'd expect I'd probably need to take it to a dealer in precious metals and exchange it for dollars first.
In article <j1s13q$1sj...@pangkur.medieval.org>, mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
> In article <60u247pd6o7qqpodrtnvtfg24h0uk7j...@4ax.com>, > Chris Duck <chrisd...@coldmail.com> wrote: > >If it's by government edict, then it's fiat; if it's by the > >preferences of society in general, then it isn't.
> Most people prefer using US dollars to gold. It's easier. In fact, > I don't recall ever seeing anyone attempt to make e.g. a food > purchase with anything but dollars.
In article <micheinnz-31CC77.19051310082...@dynamic-24-42-201-193.knology.net>,
Miche <michei...@gmail.com> wrote: >In article <j1s13q$1sj...@pangkur.medieval.org>, > mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote: >> Most people prefer using US dollars to gold. It's easier. In fact, >> I don't recall ever seeing anyone attempt to make e.g. a food >> purchase with anything but dollars. >I have. I do it several times per week.
>>> Most people prefer using US dollars to gold. It's easier. In fact, >>> I don't recall ever seeing anyone attempt to make e.g. a food >>> purchase with anything but dollars.
>>I have. I do it several times per week.
>What do you use?
New Zealand dollars? -- Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/ <*> <*> <*> The problem with an ever-changing .sig is that you have to keep changing it
Miche wrote: > In article<j1s13q$1sj...@pangkur.medieval.org>, > mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote: >> Most people prefer using US dollars to gold. It's easier. In fact, >> I don't recall ever seeing anyone attempt to make e.g. a food >> purchase with anything but dollars.
> I have. I do it several times per week.
Ah yes, but Todd's stated he lives in the US, so it would be hard for him to see you doing it.
Deborah figured someone had to do the pedant thing
Chickpea <chick...@gmx.co.uk> writes: > In alt.polyamory, (David Weinshenker) wrote: >> If I had some gold, and I wanted to spend it as money, I'd expect I'd >> probably need to take it to a dealer in precious metals and exchange it >> for dollars first. > Yeah, but wait until the Zombie Apocalypse.
Everyone will invest in gold, and then we'll end up having a Werewolf Apocalypse instead and everyone should have been investing in silver. Whoops.
>Oh, well, $INSERT_LOCAL_FIAT_CURRENCY. Even if it's still dollars. >If the answer is something else, that'd be more interesting (and >certainly not inconceivable).
I would say that most individuals, businesses, and bankers prefer to transact in a national currency (*) rather than a commodity like gold. The reason is the value of the former is (at least in theory) managed and maintained via deliberate policies, whereas the value of the latter is up to the whims of speculators.
Central bankers like their reserves to be mostly in sovereign bonds such as U.S. treasuries, but because there is a chronic shortage of these, they are increasing their amount of gold reserves particularly in the past few weeks, and generally since the Asian/IMF crises of the late 1990's. (The so-called "Mini Bretton Woods" policy.) Whether this means gold is in a bubble is hard to say, but I think you can say that if a bunch of central bankers shifted their policies for whatever reasons, there would be a decline in demand for it.
(*) By national currencies I include Euro and other trans-national currencies. I think these are presently all fiat currencies rather than hard currencies since the Swiss went off their gold reserve requirement, but there could be one or two still lurking out there.
In article <R6ydnUXRKtq-VN_TnZ2dnUVZ_vann...@pdx.net>,
Phoenix <drupp...@munged.clearspringlabs.com> wrote: > Miche wrote: > > In article<j1s13q$1sj...@pangkur.medieval.org>, > > mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote: > >> Most people prefer using US dollars to gold. It's easier. In fact, > >> I don't recall ever seeing anyone attempt to make e.g. a food > >> purchase with anything but dollars.
> > I have. I do it several times per week.
> Ah yes, but Todd's stated he lives in the US, so it would be hard > for him to see you doing it.
That's not what he said, though. He said "Most people," not "most residents of the US."
> figured someone had to do the pedant thing
It does get a bit irritating being constantly sidelined.
In article <j1ua7o$1vf...@pangkur.medieval.org>, mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
> In article > <micheinnz-31CC77.19051310082...@dynamic-24-42-201-193.knology.net>, > Miche <michei...@gmail.com> wrote: > >In article <j1s13q$1sj...@pangkur.medieval.org>, > > mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote: > >> Most people prefer using US dollars to gold. It's easier. In fact, > >> I don't recall ever seeing anyone attempt to make e.g. a food > >> purchase with anything but dollars. > >I have. I do it several times per week.
In article <R6ydnUXRKtq-VN_TnZ2dnUVZ_vann...@pdx.net>,
Phoenix <drupp...@munged.clearspringlabs.com> wrote: > Miche wrote: > > In article<j1s13q$1sj...@pangkur.medieval.org>, > > mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote: > >> Most people prefer using US dollars to gold. It's easier. In fact, > >> I don't recall ever seeing anyone attempt to make e.g. a food > >> purchase with anything but dollars.
> > I have. I do it several times per week.
> Ah yes, but Todd's stated he lives in the US, so it would be hard > for him to see you doing it.
That's not what he said, though. He said "Most people," not "most residents of the US."
> figured someone had to do the pedant thing
It does get a bit irritating being constantly sidelined.
> In article<R6ydnUXRKtq-VN_TnZ2dnUVZ_vann...@pdx.net>, > Phoenix<drupp...@munged.clearspringlabs.com> wrote:
>> Miche wrote: >>> In article<j1s13q$1sj...@pangkur.medieval.org>, >>> mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote: >>>> Most people prefer using US dollars to gold. It's easier. In fact, >>>> I don't recall ever seeing anyone attempt to make e.g. a food >>>> purchase with anything but dollars.
>>> I have. I do it several times per week.
>> Ah yes, but Todd's stated he lives in the US, so it would be hard >> for him to see you doing it.
> That's not what he said, though. He said "Most people," not "most > residents of the US."
>> figured someone had to do the pedant thing
> It does get a bit irritating being constantly sidelined.
I figured since he said "I don't recall ever seeing" that it would only include people in his country, but you're right, it's still annoying that a discussion on currency immediately defaults to US currency.
>>> Miche wrote: >>>> In article<j1s13q$1sj...@pangkur.medieval.org>, >>>> mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote: >>>>> Most people prefer using US dollars to gold. It's easier. In fact, >>>>> I don't recall ever seeing anyone attempt to make e.g. a food >>>>> purchase with anything but dollars.
>>>> I have. I do it several times per week.
>>> Ah yes, but Todd's stated he lives in the US, so it would be hard >>> for him to see you doing it.
>> That's not what he said, though. He said "Most people," not "most >> residents of the US."
>>> figured someone had to do the pedant thing
>> It does get a bit irritating being constantly sidelined.
>I figured since he said "I don't recall ever seeing" that it would only >include people in his country, but you're right, it's still annoying >that a discussion on currency immediately defaults to US currency.
I'm not sure if this is what Todd meant, but it's possible that "Most people [worldwide] prefer using U.S. dollars to gold". I am pretty sure that if I wanted to pay a taxi driver in, say, Moscow, it would be easier to do so in U.S. dollars than in gold.
But I'm sure there are many areas where people are not particularly interested in either.
>On 08/11/2011 01:48 AM, Miche wrote: >> In article<R6ydnUXRKtq-VN_TnZ2dnUVZ_vann...@pdx.net>, >> Phoenix<drupp...@munged.clearspringlabs.com> wrote: >>> Miche wrote: >>>> In article<j1s13q$1sj...@pangkur.medieval.org>, >>>> mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
>>>>> Most people prefer using US dollars to gold. It's easier. In fact, >>>>> I don't recall ever seeing anyone attempt to make e.g. a food >>>>> purchase with anything but dollars.
>>>> I have. I do it several times per week.
>>> Ah yes, but Todd's stated he lives in the US, so it would be hard >>> for him to see you doing it.
>> That's not what he said, though. He said "Most people," not "most >> residents of the US."
>>> figured someone had to do the pedant thing
>> It does get a bit irritating being constantly sidelined.
>I figured since he said "I don't recall ever seeing" that it would only >include people in his country, but you're right, it's still annoying >that a discussion on currency immediately defaults to US currency.
That sentence is separate from, "Most people prefer using US dollars to gold," which is I think what Miche was particularly complaining about. -- Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/ <*> <*> <*> "I used to have a .sig but I found it impossible to please everyone..." --SFJ
Miche wrote: > In article<R6ydnUXRKtq-VN_TnZ2dnUVZ_vann...@pdx.net>, > Phoenix<drupp...@munged.clearspringlabs.com> wrote:
>> Miche wrote: >>> In article<j1s13q$1sj...@pangkur.medieval.org>, >>> mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote: >>>> Most people prefer using US dollars to gold. It's easier. In fact, >>>> I don't recall ever seeing anyone attempt to make e.g. a food >>>> purchase with anything but dollars.
>>> I have. I do it several times per week.
>> Ah yes, but Todd's stated he lives in the US, so it would be hard >> for him to see you doing it.
> That's not what he said, though. He said "Most people," not "most > residents of the US."
Oh, urg. My bad. I read you as responding to the "I don't recall ever seeing..." part, not the "Most people..." part. Apologies. You are quite right.
> It does get a bit irritating being constantly sidelined.
Chickpea <chick...@gmx.co.uk> wrote: >In alt.polyamory, (Steve Pope) wrote in >>I'm not sure if this is what Todd meant, but it's possible that >>"Most people [worldwide] prefer using U.S. dollars to gold". >>I am pretty sure that if I wanted to pay a taxi driver in, >>say, Moscow, it would be easier to do so in U.S. dollars than >>in gold. >>But I'm sure there are many areas where people are not particularly >>interested in either. >I'm equally sure that there are parts of the world where USD have >limited utility, and gold would be preferred.
Maybe. There are certainly periods in history where the average person used gold as currency, such as in California in the 1850's, and probably in antiquity at various times and places.
I confess to not being aware of any such places currently.
> >> Miche wrote: > >>> In article<j1s13q$1sj...@pangkur.medieval.org>, > >>> mcc...@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote: > >>>> Most people prefer using US dollars to gold. It's easier. In fact, > >>>> I don't recall ever seeing anyone attempt to make e.g. a food > >>>> purchase with anything but dollars.
> >>> I have. I do it several times per week.
> >> Ah yes, but Todd's stated he lives in the US, so it would be hard > >> for him to see you doing it.
> > That's not what he said, though. He said "Most people," not "most > > residents of the US."
> Oh, urg. My bad. I read you as responding to the "I don't recall > ever seeing..." part, not the "Most people..." part. Apologies. > You are quite right.
> > It does get a bit irritating being constantly sidelined.
> Not intended...again, apologies.
Oh, you're not the one who did the sidelining. No apology necessary.
> In article<4uOdnWsAhvsflZPTnZ2dnUVZ5rSdn...@giganews.com>, > Guy W. Thomas<xango...@gmail.com> wrote: >> It seems to me discussions of fraud in public assistance is really >> a way to make cutting or eliminating it OK.
> Absolutely. "It's not perfect anyway, so might as well just end it."
>> There will always be people who will try to game any system.
> Yes. Such as the people who claim that public assistance is full > of fraud, because they don't want to make their meager contribution > toward it.
