Poly-gatory
JK
Back again. Sorry for the hit-and-run nature of my last few posts.
I'll try to stick around this time -- and I have motivation to do so.
I am actually *in* a poly relationship, for the first time in, hmm, 17 years,
I think. It's very new, and... good; but feels precarious -- like I don't
really deserve this, and could knock it over at any time with a careless
word or action.
My partners are Anne, my wife of 12 years, from whom I was separated for
over 2 years, and with whom I've recently established a new connection,
quite different than the old; and Aura, a lovely and wonderful person
with whom I became very close during the separation. They don't
particularly like one another :-( But I like and love them both very
much.
I worry all the time that I will hurt someone's feelings by showing
some preference or bias. I hope that's because this is such a new and
really unexpected situation, and that we'll all settle down and be
confident in one another's affections after a while... But I don't know.
I've never been the hinge of a V before, only a wingtip. Anne, especially,
seems somewhat insecure; I am trying to be extremely clear about my
feelings for her, and that they are not temporary. And there's
every possibility one or both of them will establish other relationships,
and I'm not sure how I'll feel about that. I *want* it to be perfectly
OK, but I can't be certain how I'll feel unless/until it happens.
I fear that our friends will come down on me for my "philandering"
ways, and deluge Anne and Aura with "you shouldn't have to put up with
this" messages.
I am giddy and terrified, by turns and sometimes at once. I am doing
my best to be completely honest with everyone involved, and to be fully
present for each of my partners when we're together. It all seems more
complicated than I imagined. Especially the "complete honesty" part.
I am with my distressingly religious family this week, and talking
about my personal affairs as little as possible.
Any encouragement or words of wisdom, about anything, will be appreciated.
I have, on occasion, presumed to give advice here. At the moment I
find that pretty funny.
I hope everyone is doing well.
Hugs for your mom, Serene. I'm visiting with my mom this week,
too; she's on a fairly stable plateau at the moment, after years
of struggling with bipolar disorder. We're going to see "Up"
tomorrow, I think. Haven't seen it yet, but I've heard nothing
but good stuff.
TTFN,
-- JK
--
(declare (antichrist i) (anarchist i)) ; -- the sexp-pistols
Stef
>I worry all the time that I will hurt someone's feelings by showing
>some preference or bias.
If you think your partners might be withholding their negative feelings
from you, one option might be to have a scheduled check-in with each of
your partners where the discussion topic is "Are we happy in the
relationship? Is there anything that happened that we would rather not
again? If so how can we address that?"
>Anne, especially,
>seems somewhat insecure; I am trying to be extremely clear about my
>feelings for her, and that they are not temporary.
It's a new relationship so, as I said in another thread, it's insecure
by definition (as in, patterns of behavior haven't been established). In
my experience, it can help a little to say "My feelings aren't
temporary," but saying it doesn't prove anything, because sometimes
people say it and then leave anyway. The only way to prove it is to
stick around.
>And there's
>every possibility one or both of them will establish other relationships,
>and I'm not sure how I'll feel about that. I *want* it to be perfectly
>OK, but I can't be certain how I'll feel unless/until it happens.
It would probably be best if you could acknowledge that you aren't
certain how you will feel, and then think about it as little as possible
until it *does* happen. It seems like you are "pre-worrying" a bit, if
you know what I mean. (Sometimes one can't help this, but maybe knowing
what it is helps a little.)
>I fear that our friends will come down on me for my "philandering"
>ways, and deluge Anne and Aura with "you shouldn't have to put up with
>this" messages.
That would suck. It is to be hoped that if they do that you would be
able to find better friends.
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com **
** cat-and-dragon.com/stef ** firecat.livejournal.com **
**
I would like to sleep
with you, to enter
your sleep as its smooth dark wave
slides over my head
-- Margaret Atwood, "Variations on the Word Sleep"
JK
Stef wrote:
> In article <h24bub$1vd$1...@aioe.org>, JK <jk.u...@kneuro.net> wrote:
>
>> I worry all the time that I will hurt someone's feelings by showing
>> some preference or bias.
>
> If you think your partners might be withholding their negative feelings
> from you, one option might be to have a scheduled check-in with each of
> your partners where the discussion topic is "Are we happy in the
> relationship? Is there anything that happened that we would rather not
> again? If so how can we address that?"
That is a very good idea. I don't really feel that they are withholding
negative feelings -- they're both pretty up front about them. I just
don't always know how to "fix" things, or if I should.
>> Anne, especially,
>> seems somewhat insecure; I am trying to be extremely clear about my
>> feelings for her, and that they are not temporary.
>
> It's a new relationship so, as I said in another thread, it's insecure
> by definition (as in, patterns of behavior haven't been established). In
> my experience, it can help a little to say "My feelings aren't
> temporary," but saying it doesn't prove anything, because sometimes
> people say it and then leave anyway. The only way to prove it is to
> stick around.
Yeah, I know. I have stuck around through a lot already, though not
always with the "romantic relationship" label in effect. My thinking
is that if we can still have generally positive feelings for one
another after all the stuff we've gone through, those feelings are
probably pretty durable. I've done and said some awfully hurtful
things over the past year while trying hard to convince myself
that I wasn't still in love with her (because my other partner really
didn't want me to be, and I was very conflicted about the whole
situation). When I finally decided to acknowledge that love, *I* felt
a great deal happier, but Anne doesn't trust it yet. I think her
reservations are reasonable, and as you say, all I can do is stay.
>> And there's
>> every possibility one or both of them will establish other relationships,
>> and I'm not sure how I'll feel about that. I *want* it to be perfectly
>> OK, but I can't be certain how I'll feel unless/until it happens.
>
> It would probably be best if you could acknowledge that you aren't
> certain how you will feel, and then think about it as little as possible
> until it *does* happen. It seems like you are "pre-worrying" a bit, if
> you know what I mean. (Sometimes one can't help this, but maybe knowing
> what it is helps a little.)
>
>> I fear that our friends will come down on me for my "philandering"
>> ways, and deluge Anne and Aura with "you shouldn't have to put up with
>> this" messages.
>
> That would suck. It is to be hoped that if they do that you would be
> able to find better friends.
I've got the friends I've got, most of them are pretty steeped in
the dominant monogamous culture. I don't think I should hold that
against them, but on the other hand I need to find a way to publicly
acknowledge both of my partners, and that's a scary prospect.
Finding good friends is very difficult for me, so I'd like to
keep these :-)
Thanks,
-- JK
> I would like to sleep
> with you, to enter
> your sleep as its smooth dark wave
> slides over my head
> -- Margaret Atwood, "Variations on the Word Sleep"
(That is lovely.)
PolyGirl
> >> I worry all the time that I will hurt someone's feelings by showing
> >> some preference or bias.
>
> > If you think your partners might be withholding their negative feelings
> > from you, one option might be to have a scheduled check-in with each of
> > your partners where the discussion topic is "Are we happy in the
> > relationship? Is there anything that happened that we would rather not
> > again? If so how can we address that?"
>
> That is a very good idea. I don't really feel that they are withholding
> negative feelings -- they're both pretty up front about them. I just
> don't always know how to "fix" things, or if I should.
I don't think you're responsible for "fixing" anything. Your partners'
emotions are *their's* to deal with and only they can change how they
feel. What you *are* responsible for though, imo, is to listen and pay
attention to your loved one's feelings and to negotiate with them over
actions (or lack thereof) on your part that would make them feel more
comfortable. (This is not from me, but rather based on something that
was said in another thread that I really liked a lot! ;)
> >> Anne, especially,
> >> seems somewhat insecure; I am trying to be extremely clear about my
> >> feelings for her, and that they are not temporary.
>
> > It's a new relationship so, as I said in another thread, it's insecure
> > by definition (as in, patterns of behavior haven't been established). In
> > my experience, it can help a little to say "My feelings aren't
> > temporary," but saying it doesn't prove anything, because sometimes
> > people say it and then leave anyway. The only way to prove it is to
> > stick around.
>
> Yeah, I know. I have stuck around through a lot already, though not
> always with the "romantic relationship" label in effect. My thinking
> is that if we can still have generally positive feelings for one
> another after all the stuff we've gone through, those feelings are
> probably pretty durable. I've done and said some awfully hurtful
> things over the past year while trying hard to convince myself
> that I wasn't still in love with her (because my other partner really
> didn't want me to be, and I was very conflicted about the whole
> situation). When I finally decided to acknowledge that love, *I* felt
> a great deal happier, but Anne doesn't trust it yet. I think her
> reservations are reasonable, and as you say, all I can do is stay.
While it is true that there aren't guarantees and that relationships
are uncertain and all, personally being reassured about the status quo
(namely that you love her NOW) helps *me* very much. I don't know what
it takes for Anne to trust your love, she may always feel a teeny bit
insecure. Ask her if there is something you could do to make her feel
safe (like for me, as I've said in another post, is my boyfriend
publicly standing by me and our love). What that something is for
Anne, I can't tell you. Maybe she doesn't know it herself just yet.
And coming back to the responsibility issue....if it takes something
you're not willing to give/do? then that's ok too. You don't have to
"fix" her insecurity. YOu can help her with it as much as you are
comfortable with it.
>
>
> >> And there's
> >> every possibility one or both of them will establish other relationships,
> >> and I'm not sure how I'll feel about that. I *want* it to be perfectly
> >> OK, but I can't be certain how I'll feel unless/until it happens.
>
> > It would probably be best if you could acknowledge that you aren't
> > certain how you will feel, and then think about it as little as possible
> > until it *does* happen. It seems like you are "pre-worrying" a bit, if
> > you know what I mean. (Sometimes one can't help this, but maybe knowing
> > what it is helps a little.)
>
> >> I fear that our friends will come down on me for my "philandering"
> >> ways, and deluge Anne and Aura with "you shouldn't have to put up with
> >> this" messages.
>
> > That would suck. It is to be hoped that if they do that you would be
> > able to find better friends.
>
> I've got the friends I've got, most of them are pretty steeped in
> the dominant monogamous culture. I don't think I should hold that
> against them, but on the other hand I need to find a way to publicly
> acknowledge both of my partners, and that's a scary prospect.
> Finding good friends is very difficult for me, so I'd like to
> keep these :-)
The friends issue is one everyone deals with, no? I also have friends,
who give me the "don't put up with this shit" messages, but I wouldn't
want my boyfriend to worry about that. I'm grown up and know how to
deal with that, so I'm sure your partners will find ways to deal with
that too. If someone is really interested, I will explain to them what
I believe in and if they don't really care, they just wanna bitch,
then I ignore them and if they are important to me, I am just discrete
and only tell them as much as they need to know (which isn't much at
all).
Todd Michel McComb
>It is to be hoped that if they do that you would be able to find
>better friends.
As I coincidentally remarked elsewhere, I don't think the friends
issue is really that straightforward. Personally, I've found it
very surprising sometimes how people react... how some people who
are "cool" are totally unsupportive, and others are quite supportive,
for instance.
I am visiting family this week, and really hoping they'll ask about
my girlfriend(s), because I know they know.... I expect they won't
say anything. Maybe next year I'll visit with someone other than
my wife.
Aahz Maruch
Todd Michel McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
>
>I am visiting family this week, and really hoping they'll ask about
>my girlfriend(s), because I know they know.... I expect they won't
>say anything. Maybe next year I'll visit with someone other than
>my wife.
Speaking as someone who has dealt with this, I strongly recommend that
you explicitly request an invitation to bring someone to family events
ahead of time.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Ben Franklin
Todd Michel McComb
>Speaking as someone who has dealt with this, I strongly recommend that
>you explicitly request an invitation to bring someone to family events
>ahead of time.
I would be interested to hear more thoughts on this. I would have
a pretty hard time attending family events, ever again, if such a
request were denied. And I suspect my parents are well aware of
this. Actually, it's inconceivable to me that they'd say no.
Aqua
> Hi Stef,
>
> Stef wrote:
>> In article <h24bub$1vd$1...@aioe.org>, JK <jk.u...@kneuro.net> wrote:
>>> Anne, especially,
>>> seems somewhat insecure; I am trying to be extremely clear about my
>>> feelings for her, and that they are not temporary.
>>
>> It's a new relationship so, as I said in another thread, it's insecure
>> by definition (as in, patterns of behavior haven't been established). In
>> my experience, it can help a little to say "My feelings aren't
>> temporary," but saying it doesn't prove anything, because sometimes
>> people say it and then leave anyway. The only way to prove it is to
>> stick around.
>
> Yeah, I know. I have stuck around through a lot already, though not
> always with the "romantic relationship" label in effect. My thinking
> is that if we can still have generally positive feelings for one
> another after all the stuff we've gone through, those feelings are
> probably pretty durable. I've done and said some awfully hurtful
> things over the past year while trying hard to convince myself
> that I wasn't still in love with her (because my other partner really
> didn't want me to be, and I was very conflicted about the whole
> situation). When I finally decided to acknowledge that love, *I* felt
> a great deal happier, but Anne doesn't trust it yet. I think her
> reservations are reasonable, and as you say, all I can do is stay.
One of the awkward things I've found about saying (or doing) hurtful
things is that while the person who said/did them may realise they
didn't really mean them, or it was all complicated by some other
factors, and generally can "get over it" pretty quickly; it usually
takes much longer for the person who was hurt to "get over it" even if
they understand intellectually the full context of the hurtful things.
The emotional sense of being hurt doesn't respond all that well to
reasons in my experience.
Aqua
Serene Vannoy
Same here, but. (That is, it's inconceivable to me that my family would
deny my request to bring someone to family events, but it's also highly
unlikely that I would take someone new to a family event without letting
my family know first.)
Serene
--
42 Magazine, celebrating life with meaning. Inaugural issue is here!
http://42magazine.com
"But here's a handy hint: if your fabulous theory for ending war and
all other human conflict will not survive an online argument with
humourless feminists who are not afraid to throw rape around as an
example, your theory needs work." -- Aqua, alt.polyamory
Todd Michel McComb
Serene Vannoy <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:
>That is, it's inconceivable to me that my family would deny my
>request to bring someone to family events, but it's also highly
>unlikely that I would take someone new to a family event without
>letting my family know first.
Oh, I would mention it, but it wouldn't be a question.
Aahz Maruch
That makes senese. Nevertheless, you are a guest and it would be rude to
bring someone unexpected without an invitation.
In my case, it took negotiation over time to obtain an invitation, but I
eventually received one and it worked out fairly well. I suggest that
should your parents express discomfort, you might find it worthwhile to
not press the issue immediately; it's similar to the advice we give here
when people talk about introducing polyamory into a previously monogamous
relationship, about giving the other person at least as much time to get
used to the idea as the poly-introducer took in figuring out that
monogamy was no longer working. Obviously, one wouldn't give parents the
same amount of time to get used to it, but patience is often rewarded.
One more thing: lack of invitation issuance is not precisely the same
thing as denial. I recommend being careful to find out which it is.
Todd Michel McComb
>In my case, it took negotiation over time to obtain an invitation,
>but I eventually received one and it worked out fairly well.
Hmmm. I certainly agree with the general advice that patience is
often rewarded, but I don't know if I'd really go to to this much
trouble. I just wouldn't attend until or unless they changed their
minds, and I doubt I'd give it much thought. I've been through
similar issues in the past.
That said, I do prefer pleasant conversations, and don't really
relish my Limbaugh-ite Dad getting to know my communist girlfriend,
but I figure it has to happen eventually.
Serene Vannoy
Right. Same here.
Aahz Maruch
>>
>>In my case, it took negotiation over time to obtain an invitation,
>>but I eventually received one and it worked out fairly well.
>
>Hmmm. I certainly agree with the general advice that patience is often
>rewarded, but I don't know if I'd really go to to this much trouble. I
>just wouldn't attend until or unless they changed their minds, and I
>doubt I'd give it much thought. I've been through similar issues in
>the past.
Fair enough; I think my attitude is partly based on the fact that my
parents are local.
>That said, I do prefer pleasant conversations, and don't really relish
>my Limbaugh-ite Dad getting to know my communist girlfriend, but I
>figure it has to happen eventually.
Can we purchase tickets? ;-) (I'm betting on your girlfriend...)
Stef
>>> I fear that our friends will come down on me for my "philandering"
>>> ways, and deluge Anne and Aura with "you shouldn't have to put up with
>>> this" messages.
>>
>> That would suck. It is to be hoped that if they do that you would be
>> able to find better friends.
>
>I've got the friends I've got, most of them are pretty steeped in
>the dominant monogamous culture. I don't think I should hold that
>against them, but on the other hand I need to find a way to publicly
>acknowledge both of my partners, and that's a scary prospect.
>Finding good friends is very difficult for me, so I'd like to
>keep these :-)
I certainly don't think you should dump your friends just because they
are monogamous. And when you come out to them, if they are initially
taken aback or concerned, there's nothing wrong with that, and it's an
opportunity for a conversation about your choices. And if they disagree
with what you're doing, well, it's certainly possible for friends to
disagree about things gracefully.
But if the disagreement is persistently ungraceful, if they continue to
"come down on" you for actions you did not commit but that they
attributed to you, and if they continue to try to drive wedges between
you and your partners, then in my opinion they are not acting like good
friends.
If they were good friends once, it might be worth it to say "Hey, you've
got the wrong idea" and "Look, we are adults making our own choices."
But if they continue to pick at what you're doing after you say that, I
would think it unacceptable behavior from a friend.
For what it's worth, many of my friends are monogamous, and no one gave
me a hard time when I came out as poly. My parents didn't either. (I was
pretty careful how I came out to my parents, and that helped.) There is
certainly a dominant monogamous culture but there's also a pretty well
defined notion in my culture of "some people live their lives
differently and if you want them in your life, you get to accept that,
or at least act like you do." (Your culture may vary.)
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com **
** cat-and-dragon.com/stef ** firecat.livejournal.com **
**
YOU KNOW YOU ARE ADDICTED TO COFFEE IF ...
You don't sweat, you percolate.
Stef
>>It is to be hoped that if they do that you would be able to find
>>better friends.
>
>As I coincidentally remarked elsewhere, I don't think the friends
>issue is really that straightforward. Personally, I've found it
>very surprising sometimes how people react... how some people who
>are "cool" are totally unsupportive, and others are quite supportive,
>for instance.
I also can't predict exactly how people will react when I come out to
them, but I haven't had any friends be totally unsupportive, and if they
were, I would stop being friends with them. I don't see any other useful
course of action. Do you?
>I am visiting family this week, and really hoping they'll ask about
>my girlfriend(s), because I know they know.... I expect they won't
>say anything. Maybe next year I'll visit with someone other than
>my wife.
I should note that because I come from a reserved culture, I don't
consider "not saying anything" to be "totally unsupportive." Totally
unsupportive would be harrassing me about my choice. In my culture
maintaining silence about things you disagree about is an OK way to
compromise with a friend. (I would not want it for a close friend or a
partner, though.)
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com **
** cat-and-dragon.com/stef ** firecat.livejournal.com **
**
I can please only one person per day.
Today is not your day.
Tomorrow isn't looking good either. -- Dave Morse (via the DNRC)
Todd Michel McComb
>I also can't predict exactly how people will react when I come out
>to them, but I haven't had any friends be totally unsupportive, and
>if they were, I would stop being friends with them. I don't see any
>other useful course of action. Do you?
I generally forgive them, but I do get annoyed sometimes. There's
also the people who claim to be OK with it, but who obviously aren't.
And there are various friends-of-friends that I might see together
with various motley assortments of friends and acquaintances and
all that. There's some people who particularly annoy me who I'd
just as soon not be friends with, but I often see them anyway in
social settings. And then if they have a problem.... None of it
seems simple to me.
>I should note that because I come from a reserved culture, I don't
>consider "not saying anything" to be "totally unsupportive."
Oh, I agree, but I'm pretty talkative -- as you might have noticed
-- and so is my family.
Steve Pope
>Todd Michel McComb wrote:
>><aa...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>> Speaking as someone who has dealt with this, I strongly recommend that
>>> you explicitly request an invitation to bring someone to family events
>>> ahead of time.
>> I would be interested to hear more thoughts on this. I would have
>> a pretty hard time attending family events, ever again, if such a
>> request were denied. And I suspect my parents are well aware of
>> this. Actually, it's inconceivable to me that they'd say no.
>Same here, but. (That is, it's inconceivable to me that my family would
>deny my request to bring someone to family events, but it's also highly
>unlikely that I would take someone new to a family event without letting
>my family know first.)
The way I'm reading this, Todd never suggested that he'd take
any person to a biofamily event on an unannounced basis.
Steve
Vicki Rosenzweig
>In article <h26rma$cij$1...@aioe.org>, JK <jk.u...@kneuro.net> wrote:
>
>>>> I fear that our friends will come down on me for my "philandering"
>>>> ways, and deluge Anne and Aura with "you shouldn't have to put up with
>>>> this" messages.
>>>
>>> That would suck. It is to be hoped that if they do that you would be
>>> able to find better friends.
>>
>>I've got the friends I've got, most of them are pretty steeped in
>>the dominant monogamous culture. I don't think I should hold that
>>against them, but on the other hand I need to find a way to publicly
>>acknowledge both of my partners, and that's a scary prospect.
>>Finding good friends is very difficult for me, so I'd like to
>>keep these :-)
>
>I certainly don't think you should dump your friends just because they
>are monogamous. And when you come out to them, if they are initially
>taken aback or concerned, there's nothing wrong with that, and it's an
>opportunity for a conversation about your choices. And if they disagree
>with what you're doing, well, it's certainly possible for friends to
>disagree about things gracefully.
Yes. There can be places, for various people, where that doesn't work:
but someone here might find that their friends thought poly was weird
and unlikely to work out, but be willing to hang out anyway, but not
prepared to stick with a friend who had very different views on some
other axis (which might be anything from appropriate ways to raise
children to choices of food to economics).
>
>But if the disagreement is persistently ungraceful, if they continue to
>"come down on" you for actions you did not commit but that they
>attributed to you, and if they continue to try to drive wedges between
>you and your partners, then in my opinion they are not acting like good
>friends.
>
>If they were good friends once, it might be worth it to say "Hey, you've
>got the wrong idea" and "Look, we are adults making our own choices."
>But if they continue to pick at what you're doing after you say that, I
>would think it unacceptable behavior from a friend.
>
That makes sense; I don't need my friends or family to understand
poly, as long as they understand that I have thought about what I'm
doing and a bit of what that means.
>For what it's worth, many of my friends are monogamous, and no one gave
>me a hard time when I came out as poly. My parents didn't either. (I was
>pretty careful how I came out to my parents, and that helped.) There is
>certainly a dominant monogamous culture but there's also a pretty well
>defined notion in my culture of "some people live their lives
>differently and if you want them in your life, you get to accept that,
>or at least act like you do." (Your culture may vary.)
I have quite a few monogamous friends. In many cases, I'm far from the
only, or first, poly person they've known, so while I may have needed
to tell them I'm poly, I haven't had to do the basic "hey, this
exists, and we aren't all depraved or miserable" stuff. On the other
hand, I recently got back in touch with someone I hadn't seen in many
years, and when I told her that yes, I'm with the partner she knew and
liked, and also have other romantic complications, the basic response
was "that's cool, I'm going to be in New York with my husband and
kids, can we get together?" Now, maybe she's got a bunch of other poly
friends--but maybe not, given that she teaches at a small college in
rural Florida.
It doesn't always work, but at this stage of my life I'm usually going
to take the chance. But that's from a position of abundance: I don't
have time to see all the people I want to see and who want to see me.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
"Regret, by definition, comes too late;
Say what you mean. Bear witness. Iterate." --John M. Ford
Vicki Rosenzweig
18:08:48 -0700:
>Todd Michel McComb wrote:
>> In article <h2933u$he1$1...@panix3.panix.com>, Aahz Maruch <aa...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>> Speaking as someone who has dealt with this, I strongly recommend that
>>> you explicitly request an invitation to bring someone to family events
>>> ahead of time.
>>
>> I would be interested to hear more thoughts on this. I would have
>> a pretty hard time attending family events, ever again, if such a
>> request were denied. And I suspect my parents are well aware of
>> this. Actually, it's inconceivable to me that they'd say no.
>>
>
>Same here, but. (That is, it's inconceivable to me that my family would
>deny my request to bring someone to family events, but it's also highly
>unlikely that I would take someone new to a family event without letting
>my family know first.)
>
Likewise.
I might or might not be explicit about the relationship, but short of
an emergency, I wouldn't show up at a family event with someone I
hadn't mentioned ahead of time.