Relationships shifting...
Granola Fish
I am new to the list. I am not new to poly or nonmonagamy though. I
have been actively both for about 12 years. My legal husband & I are
both involved with 2 wonderful people. I am involved with his best
friend, J and he has a lovely lover, A for the last 6 months. We ( my
husband & I) recently acknowledged that our extra-marital lovers are
our "primaries" ( for lack of a better word.)
This is a new experience for both of us. Part of me, left over from
societally encouraged monogamous upbringing, is feel a bit sad for the
dynamic changing in our marriage. However, both of us are both still
full swing in NRE with the new dears and deeply in love with each
other. Due to the fact that we are all happy & feeling that our needs
are being met, we have determined that the change isn't a negative
one. I was just wondering if anyone has any tips or ideas on how to
ease my left over feelings.
I recently read an absolutely awesome book by Anthony Ravenscroft,
Polyamory:roadmaps for the clueless & hopeful. I highly recommend it.
well, i hope to meet some new people here as well.
Aahz Maruch
Welcome to alt.poly!
>I am not new to poly or nonmonagamy though. I
>have been actively both for about 12 years. My legal husband & I are
>both involved with 2 wonderful people. I am involved with his best
>friend, J and he has a lovely lover, A for the last 6 months. We ( my
>husband & I) recently acknowledged that our extra-marital lovers are
>our "primaries" ( for lack of a better word.)
Does this mean that your spouses are now not primary? There's no reason
not to have multiple primaries.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Ben Franklin
Todd Michel McComb
>Does this mean that your spouses are now not primary? There's no
>reason not to have multiple primaries.
What would that mean to you?
I didn't notice the OP, since I've been traveling (I am writing
this from Labrador), but it does resonate with me quite a bit now.
My wife and I have 3 children together, and live together (and
that's a big part of why), but in other ways, I don't feel like she
is my primary partner. I guess I could say I have 2 primary partners
(and another partner), but the two relationships are so different,
it would seem strange to say it like that.
Aahz Maruch
Todd Michel McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
>In article <h1o0hl$igo$1...@panix3.panix.com>, Aahz Maruch <aa...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>Does this mean that your spouses are now not primary? There's no
>>reason not to have multiple primaries.
>
>What would that mean to you?
Pronoun with ambiguous reference.
JK
> Hello All,
Hi and welcome.
[snippers]
> I recently read an absolutely awesome book by Anthony Ravenscroft,
> Polyamory:roadmaps for the clueless & hopeful. I highly recommend it.
I read that book a couple months ago, and it left me rather cold.
So much talk about threesomes. I suppose that's what some people
think "polyamory" is all about, but IMO he does the whole subject
a disservice by playing into that preconception. Also I found the
tone a bit off-putting.
I also read (most of) Jenny Block's "Open", which also didn't do
much for me. I can't quite put my finger on exactly why, though.
I put it down after reading about 3/4 and haven't felt compelled
to pick it up again, for several months now.
I wish I had some book about poly to positively recommend, but
I don't :-(
Hmm, actually Sheila Kitzinger's "Woman's Experience of Sex", which
I'm reading right now, seems very poly-friendly and useful to
readers of any gender, though it's not directly on-topic. It's
about cultural constraints on relationships; assertiveness;
communication; and forging emotional connections (as well as
other things, probably. I'm only half through it).
-- JK
--
(declare (antichrist i) (anarchist i)) ; -- the sexp-pistols
Stef
>Granola Fish wrote:
>> I recently read an absolutely awesome book by Anthony Ravenscroft,
>> Polyamory:roadmaps for the clueless & hopeful. I highly recommend it.
>I read that book a couple months ago, and it left me rather cold.
>So much talk about threesomes.
[...]
>Hmm, actually Sheila Kitzinger's "Woman's Experience of Sex", which
>I'm reading right now, seems very poly-friendly and useful to
>readers of any gender, though it's not directly on-topic. It's
>about cultural constraints on relationships; assertiveness;
>communication; and forging emotional connections (as well as
>other things, probably. I'm only half through it).
I am finding it amusing that apparently books about relationships are
really about sex, and books about sex are really about relationships.
--
Stef ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com **
** cat-and-dragon.com/stef ** firecat.livejournal.com **
**
The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three
elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest. -- BABYLON 5
santa
> In article <h26tdf$dp...@aioe.org>, JK <jk.use...@kneuro.net> wrote:
> >Granola Fish wrote:
> >> I recently read an absolutely awesome book by Anthony Ravenscroft,
> >> Polyamory:roadmaps for the clueless & hopeful. I highly recommend it.
> >I read that book a couple months ago, and it left me rather cold.
> >So much talk about threesomes.
>
> [...]
>
> >Hmm, actually Sheila Kitzinger's "Woman's Experience of Sex", which
> >I'm reading right now, seems very poly-friendly and useful to
> >readers of any gender, though it's not directly on-topic. It's
> >about cultural constraints on relationships; assertiveness;
> >communication; and forging emotional connections (as well as
> >other things, probably. I'm only half through it).
>
> I am finding it amusing that apparently books about relationships are
> really about sex, and books about sex are really about relationships.
> --
> ** cat-and-dragon.com/stef ** firecat.livejournal.com **
> **
> The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three
> elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest. -- BABYLON 5
Hello I'm John and new to the concept of poly, but i did read
The Ethical Slut: A Guide to Infinite Sexual Possibilities (Paperback)
by Dossie Easton and
Catherine A. Liszt
I found them to be fairly good at least as an introduction. As far as
sex\relationship goes I guess sex with out relationship would be like
eating an icecream cone except you don't eat the cone or ordering a
sunday with out the nuts, syrup, and sprinlkes just vanila. Which
makes you scratch your head and wonder why anyone would do that. Then
to your amasement you find that people do; otherwise why would there
be so many books on sex that are really about relationship.
Miche
<86e363c1-a743-4744...@r33g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
santa <mypo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
In my case it's because I'm allergic to the cone.
Miche
--
Electricians do it in three phases
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
You've never eaten just one or more scoops of ice cream in a dish,
without a cone, nuts, syrup or sprinkles? Honestly, people do that all
the time and enjoy it.
Dan Abel
Irfon-Kim Ahmad <ir...@ambienautica.com> wrote:
> santa <mypo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I found them to be fairly good at least as an introduction. As far as
> > sex\relationship goes I guess sex with out relationship would be like
> > eating an icecream cone except you don't eat the cone or ordering a
> > sunday with out the nuts, syrup, and sprinlkes just vanila. Which
> > makes you scratch your head and wonder why anyone would do that. Then
> > to your amasement you find that people do; otherwise why would there
> > be so many books on sex that are really about relationship.
>
> You've never eaten just one or more scoops of ice cream in a dish,
> without a cone, nuts, syrup or sprinkles? Honestly, people do that all
> the time and enjoy it.
One of us missed the point. People eat a dish of ice cream all the
time, but they don't call it a sundae. By definition, a sundae is a
dish of ice cream with stuff added. An "ice cream cone" is a cone with
ice cream in it.
--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA
da...@sonic.net
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
And people who have sex without a relationship don't necessarily call
the person or people they're sleeping with their boyfriend / girlfriend
/ partner / whatever, nor refer to it as a relationship. I think this
is less a case of not getting the point and more a case of thinking that
that's a really terrible analogy.
Kai Jones
<ir...@ambienautica.com> published this:
>santa <mypo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>As far as
>> sex\relationship goes I guess sex with out relationship would be like
>> eating an icecream cone except you don't eat the cone or ordering a
>> sunday with out the nuts, syrup, and sprinlkes just vanila.
Disparaging people who have different preferences from you for the
win!
Nope, it's not a bit like that. It's like having sex without
emotional attachment, which is a lot of fun (for me and for a lot of
other people). Sex is a pleasurable physical activity; some people
even do it by themselves! There's no relationship when you're having
solo sex, and yet lots of people like it. Other pleasurable physical
activities that can be done alone or with others include bowling,
massage, and dancing. Why do you think sex is the one that is only
good with a relationship added?
And yes, it is kinda like that. Did you know vanilla ice cream is the
most popular flavor in the US? Apparently a lot of people like
vanilla ice cream.
>You've never eaten just one or more scoops of ice cream in a dish,
>without a cone, nuts, syrup or sprinkles? Honestly, people do that all
>the time and enjoy it.
In fact I hardly ever eat ice cream with a cone, nuts, syrup, or
sprinkles at home. In the first place the ice cream tastes good by
itself--maybe the OP is eating ice cream that needs all that stuff to
make it good? In the second place I don't usually want that
stuff--maybe the OP is just has different preferences for ice cream
than I do?
--
Kai Jones sni...@panix.com
Smartass by nurture as well as nature. Oh yeah, and I'm contrary, too.
"If you are going through hell, keep going." Winston Churchill
Miche
Irfon-Kim Ahmad <ir...@ambienautica.com> wrote:
> santa <mypo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello I'm John and new to the concept of poly, but i did read
> > The Ethical Slut: A Guide to Infinite Sexual Possibilities (Paperback)
> > by Dossie Easton and
> > Catherine A. Liszt
> > I found them to be fairly good at least as an introduction. As far as
> > sex\relationship goes I guess sex with out relationship would be like
> > eating an icecream cone except you don't eat the cone or ordering a
> > sunday with out the nuts, syrup, and sprinlkes just vanila. Which
> > makes you scratch your head and wonder why anyone would do that. Then
> > to your amasement you find that people do; otherwise why would there
> > be so many books on sex that are really about relationship.
>
> You've never eaten just one or more scoops of ice cream in a dish,
> without a cone, nuts, syrup or sprinkles? Honestly, people do that all
> the time and enjoy it.
Did it last night my very self.
And oh man, was it good.
Dan Abel
Irfon-Kim Ahmad <ir...@ambienautica.com> wrote:
Sounds like I just didn't get the point.
Thanks for the reply, I really appreciated it.
Ed
news:jjqe55he83b2vcqdo...@4ax.com:
> There's no relationship when you're having
> solo sex,
Speak for yourself. :)
--
Ed
Rob Wynne
Like my old college buddy Robert used to say, "Remember kids, masturbation
is sex with someone you love."
--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
http://www.autographedcat.com/ / http://autographedcat.livejournal.com/
Gafilk 2010: Jan 8-10, 2010 - Atlanta, GA - http://www.gafilk.org/
Aphelion - Original SF&F since 1997 - http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/
PolyGirl
> On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:56:14 +0000, Irfon-Kim Ahmad
> <ir...@ambienautica.com> published this:
>
all the talk of ice cream has made me hungry. O.o
Aahz Maruch
Now you've learned one of the secrets of polyamory: it's not about the
sex, it's about the food.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
"It's 106 miles to Chicago. We have a full tank of gas, a half-pack of
cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." "Hit it."
Pat Kight
> In article <f37f6b28-d4a5-4594...@o36g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
> PolyGirl <newatp...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> all the talk of ice cream has made me hungry. O.o
>
> Now you've learned one of the secrets of polyamory: it's not about the
> sex, it's about the food.
And one of the secrets about alt.polyamory: No subject is so serious,
arcane or complex that it can't become a food thread.
(It's berry season where I live. Yesterday alone I consumed a pint of
raspberries, several handfuls of fat blueberries, and a bowl of enormous
blackberries with creme fraiche. I also pitted a quart or so of overripe
cherries and packed them in sugar and brandy for future use. Oh, and
peaches: The first peaches of the season, halved, brushed with honey and
ginger and grilled...)
--
Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Guy W. Thomas
Actually yesterday Serene filled 23 half pint jars with amber colored
plum preserves made from my very own plum tree (and a little extra that
is in my refrigerator since we ran out of jars). I just had some for
breakfast on a buttered English muffin and it is mighty tasty if I do
say so myself. We may if we feel up to it can some of my more
traditionally colored plums from the same tree this coming weekend.
I had a really wonderful day yesterday having bacon and coffee for
breakfast made by Carol. Spending most of the rest of the day with
Serene. gathering equipment for canning. Buying a Jamba Juice Peanut
Butter Moo'd (something I can't seem to get enough of lately) on the
way. Watched a little Battlestar Galactica and Buffy on DVD. Had some
"kinky sex" with Serene (because sex between a person with a disability
and the fat woman is by definition kinky :) Had a an egg, potato and
cheese thing that Serene used to eat when she lived in Spain. Really yummy!
I got to confirm that the dumb thing I did trying to get my trackball to
work on my new laptop wasn't disastrous. However the workaround I
thought would get the trackball working properly didn't work which is
frustrating. I have used a Kensington trackball of one stripe or other
for almost as long as I have used computers and apparently Kensington is
abandoning software support for their new trackballs because Vista
supposedly (not!) supports the new trackball. Which I bought
specifically because it was advertised as being Vista compliant. Grrrr!
Planning on installing Unbuntu sometime this week, wish me luck!
--
Guy W. Thomas
San Leandro, CA
http://www.xango.org http://stonebender.livejournal.com/
"If you can't believe what you read in comic books, what can you believe?"
-- Bullwinkle J. Moose
Aahz Maruch
Guy W. Thomas <xang...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Planning on installing Unbuntu sometime this week, wish me luck!
Good luck! Ubuntu has been by far the easiest Linux distro I've dealt
with, but it still has its quirks -- you should definitely line up some
local help first if you can. (Unfortunately, this week is not a good
time for me to offer, partly because <tentacles crossed> I'm interviewing
for a job that looks pretty good.)
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
"The volume of a pizza of thickness 'a' and radius 'z' is
given by pi*z*z*a"
Lane
news:ZaGdnerilNpkF8bX...@giganews.com:
> Planning on installing Unbuntu sometime this week, wish me luck!
>
I had no trobule installing Ubuntu, but, to be fair, I installed a pre-
configured image under VMWare, so it's probably an unfair comparison.
Actually, I recommend that configuration (I didn't have a choice,
because I use the same laptop for work as I do for geeking). I like
having a laptop that gives me Windows (which I have to have), a cool
Linux environment and, when I really feel like geeking out, the Hercules
mainframe emulator (I do occassionally have JCL withdrawals). Now if I
could just find a good Vax/VMS emulator....
--
Lane
Ed
> Planning on installing Unbuntu sometime this week, wish me luck!
>
I had no trobule installing Ubuntu, but, to be fair, I installed a pre-
configured image under VMWare, so it's probably an unfair comparison.
Actually, I recommend that configuration (I didn't have a choice,
because I use the same laptop for work as I do for geeking). I like
having a laptop that gives me Windows (which I have to have), a cool
Linux environment and, when I really feel like geeking out, the Hercules
mainframe emulator (I do occassionally have JCL withdrawals). Now if I
could just find a good Vax/VMS emulator....
--
Ed
Ed
news:Xns9C47A1B35A43F...@188.40.43.213:
> --
> Lane
>
>
Sorry. Picked the bad-guy sig. It's me.
--
Ed
Guy W. Thomas
> In article <ZaGdnerilNpkF8bX...@giganews.com>,
> Guy W. Thomas <xang...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Planning on installing Unbuntu sometime this week, wish me luck!
>
> Good luck! Ubuntu has been by far the easiest Linux distro I've dealt
> with, but it still has its quirks -- you should definitely line up some
> local help first if you can. (Unfortunately, this week is not a good
> time for me to offer, partly because <tentacles crossed> I'm interviewing
> for a job that looks pretty good.)
I'm sure I could get James and/or Serene to bail me out if I get into
too much trouble. I'm more worried about getting some of my adaptive
equipment/software running on it, but folks seem to be optimistic that I
should be able to get most of them to work or find substitutes or
workarounds. Good luck on the job interview.
Guy W. Thomas
Not completely sure I know what you're talking about. I only hang out
with geeks. I'm only a geek to people who don't know much about
computers at all. :-) This planned installation and the little bit of
HTML I have learned is about as geeky as I ever get. :-)
Guy W. Thomas
Don't worry I know.
Ed
> Not completely sure I know what you're talking about. I only hang out
> with geeks. I'm only a geek to people who don't know much about
> computers at all. :-) This planned installation and the little bit of
> HTML I have learned is about as geeky as I ever get. :-)
>
And I'm not really geeky when it comes to things that aren't about
computers or technology. I don't do fantasy or sci-fi (well, except for
Star Trek), renfests, gaming or lots of other things that interest some
of my other geeky friends. Not that there's anything wrong with those
things.
--
Ed
Serene Vannoy
> Actually yesterday Serene filled 23 half pint jars
24, but who's counting? :-)
> with amber colored
> plum preserves made from my very own plum tree (and a little extra that
> is in my refrigerator since we ran out of jars). I just had some for
> breakfast on a buttered English muffin and it is mighty tasty if I do
> say so myself.
Yay! I'm so glad it is good. I plan to give away some of it, and if it
were yucky, I'd be slightly less likely to do that. ;-)
> We may if we feel up to it can some of my more
> traditionally colored plums from the same tree this coming weekend.
>
> I had a really wonderful day yesterday having bacon and coffee for
> breakfast made by Carol. Spending most of the rest of the day with
> Serene. gathering equipment for canning. Buying a Jamba Juice Peanut
> Butter Moo'd (something I can't seem to get enough of lately) on the
> way. Watched a little Battlestar Galactica and Buffy on DVD. Had some
> "kinky sex"
*gasp*! ;-)
> with Serene (because sex between a person with a disability
> and the fat woman is by definition kinky :)
Hee! True, true.
> Had a an egg, potato and
> cheese thing that Serene used to eat when she lived in Spain. Really yummy!
Thanks!
>
> I got to confirm that the dumb thing I did trying to get my trackball to
> work on my new laptop wasn't disastrous. However the workaround I
> thought would get the trackball working properly didn't work which is
> frustrating. I have used a Kensington trackball of one stripe or other
> for almost as long as I have used computers and apparently Kensington is
> abandoning software support for their new trackballs because Vista
> supposedly (not!) supports the new trackball. Which I bought
> specifically because it was advertised as being Vista compliant. Grrrr!
>
> Planning on installing Unbuntu sometime this week, wish me luck!
Luck, and we can offer installation tech support on that, since we've
installed it on three or four machines now. Also, the online
user-community support is stellar.
Serene
--
42 Magazine, celebrating life with meaning. Inaugural issue is here!
http://42magazine.com
"But here's a handy hint: if your fabulous theory for ending war and
all other human conflict will not survive an online argument with
humourless feminists who are not afraid to throw rape around as an
example, your theory needs work." -- Aqua, alt.polyamory
Russ Allbery
> I'm sure I could get James and/or Serene to bail me out if I get into
> too much trouble. I'm more worried about getting some of my adaptive
> equipment/software running on it, but folks seem to be optimistic that
> I should be able to get most of them to work or find substitutes or
> workarounds. Good luck on the job interview.
The impression that I've gotten from other people I know who use
adaptive technology is that it's still sometimes trickier and has fewer
options than Windows provides, but there are enough pieces there that
one can generally get the system working. (This is a huge improvement
from where Linux used to be.)
As always with Linux, hardware is usually the hardest part, since the
hardware manufacturers by and large only ever test with Windows and only
bother to write drivers for Windows.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@stanford.edu) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
Guy W. Thomas
> Guy W. Thomas wrote:
>
>> Actually yesterday Serene filled 23 half pint jars
>
> 24, but who's counting? :-)
I thought you ended up not using one of the jars? Oh well, like you say
who's counting? :-)
> > with amber colored
>> plum preserves made from my very own plum tree (and a little extra
>> that is in my refrigerator since we ran out of jars). I just had some
>> for breakfast on a buttered English muffin and it is mighty tasty if I
>> do say so myself.
>
> Yay! I'm so glad it is good. I plan to give away some of it, and if it
> were yucky, I'd be slightly less likely to do that. ;-)
Well I liked it anyway.
It's good to have techies in the family!
fla_sunshine
> > PolyGirl <newatpolyg...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> all the talk of ice cream has made me hungry. O.o
>
> > Now you've learned one of the secrets of polyamory: it's not about the
> > sex, it's about the food.
>
> And one of the secrets about alt.polyamory: No subject is so serious,
> arcane or complex that it can't become a food thread.
>
> (It's berry season where I live. Yesterday alone I consumed a pint of
> raspberries, several handfuls of fat blueberries, and a bowl of enormous
> blackberries with creme fraiche. I also pitted a quart or so of overripe
> cherries and packed them in sugar and brandy for future use. Oh, and
> peaches: The first peaches of the season, halved, brushed with honey and
> ginger and grilled...)
>
blueberry farm. I got about 3.5 lbs. and Terri picked over 5 lbs (not
counting the ones we tasted while picking). That was before the pool
party and gaming day I mentioned in another thread.
Aqua
Whereas I'm largely a geek when it comes to biology. I figure the
variety keeps the world turning.
Aqua
866013149e
>As always with Linux, hardware is usually the hardest part, since the
>hardware manufacturers by and large only ever test with Windows and only
>bother to write drivers for Windows.
Lately I've been having very good luck with hardward and Ubuntu.
Virtully anything that plugs into a USB jack seems to work automagically,
for instance.
umar
Russ Allbery
USB has really been wonderful for the open source community, since
unlike much of the hardware (video cards, for instance), USB devices
have a well-standardized interface and are much more likely to talk
something relatively like what people are already using instead of
requiring a lot of per-device fiddling.
Guy W. Thomas
That would certainly be good news for me and my trackball.
Serene Vannoy
Now, I had heard (and I believed) that would be the case, but so far,
our experience with Ubuntu is that hardware is truly plug-and-play,
often not even requiring driver downloads. So far, there is not one
piece of hardware that's given us any trouble at all.
Serene Vannoy
> Serene Vannoy wrote:
>> Guy W. Thomas wrote:
>>
>>> Actually yesterday Serene filled 23 half pint jars
>>
>> 24, but who's counting? :-)
>
> I thought you ended up not using one of the jars? Oh well, like you say
> who's counting? :-)
:-) (The 24th one is the one I didn't can in boiling water, but just put
in the fridge for you to use. I was worried about the integrity of the
jar and didn't want to risk it.)
>
>> > with amber colored
>>> plum preserves made from my very own plum tree (and a little extra
>>> that is in my refrigerator since we ran out of jars). I just had some
>>> for breakfast on a buttered English muffin and it is mighty tasty if
>>> I do say so myself.
>>
>> Yay! I'm so glad it is good. I plan to give away some of it, and if it
>> were yucky, I'd be slightly less likely to do that. ;-)
>
> Well I liked it anyway.
Me, too. I am very happy with it, and you're right, it's got a citrusy
tang going on.
>>> I got to confirm that the dumb thing I did trying to get my trackball
>>> to work on my new laptop wasn't disastrous. However the workaround I
>>> thought would get the trackball working properly didn't work which is
>>> frustrating. I have used a Kensington trackball of one stripe or
>>> other for almost as long as I have used computers and apparently
>>> Kensington is abandoning software support for their new trackballs
>>> because Vista supposedly (not!) supports the new trackball. Which I
>>> bought specifically because it was advertised as being Vista
>>> compliant. Grrrr!
>>>
>>> Planning on installing Unbuntu sometime this week, wish me luck!
>>
>> Luck, and we can offer installation tech support on that, since we've
>> installed it on three or four machines now. Also, the online
>> user-community support is stellar.
>
> It's good to have techies in the family!
ObPoly: Every one of my partners has been good at something I suck at.
Pat Kight
And I'm a theater geek, with side trips into selective technology (yes
to computers, yes to digital cameras, yes to e-book readers, no to cell
phones, PDAs and high-definition TV ...)
Although many self-identified geeks come from the computer world,
geekery, to me, is about the focused passion more than the subject
matter ...
--
Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Russ Allbery
> Russ Allbery wrote:
>> As always with Linux, hardware is usually the hardest part, since the
>> hardware manufacturers by and large only ever test with Windows and
>> only bother to write drivers for Windows.
> Now, I had heard (and I believed) that would be the case, but so far,
> our experience with Ubuntu is that hardware is truly plug-and-play,
> often not even requiring driver downloads. So far, there is not one
> piece of hardware that's given us any trouble at all.
One nice thing about Linux is that everything that *is* supported just
ships with it, so you rarely have the "need to download external drivers"
failure mode. It generally either just works or you need to build some
development source tree somewhere and pray.
USB peripherals are generally going to just work, although sometimes it
can be a bit hard to get at the really fancy extra features. (Like, for
instance, the basic trackpad functionality on my laptop always worked, but
it was only recently that some of the extra bits like using one side as a
scroll wheel worked without fiddling and extra configuration.)
eilinel
>
> - Show quoted text -
The park where we play has wild blackberries and red raspberries, both
of which are ready to pick. Finding the time, however.....
Eilinel
Ed
news.jamver.id.au:
> Whereas I'm largely a geek when it comes to biology. I figure the
> variety keeps the world turning.
>
Indeed.
--
Ed
Steve Pope
>866013149e <86601...@hippogryph.com> writes:
>> Lately I've been having very good luck with hardward and Ubuntu.
>> Virtully anything that plugs into a USB jack seems to work
>> automagically, for instance.
>USB has really been wonderful for the open source community, since
>unlike much of the hardware (video cards, for instance), USB devices
>have a well-standardized interface and are much more likely to talk
>something relatively like what people are already using instead of
>requiring a lot of per-device fiddling.
So in your experience, have any USB controllers/devices faster
than 2.0 gotten off the ground yet?
Steve
Russ Allbery
> Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> wrote:
>> USB has really been wonderful for the open source community, since
>> unlike much of the hardware (video cards, for instance), USB devices
>> have a well-standardized interface and are much more likely to talk
>> something relatively like what people are already using instead of
>> requiring a lot of per-device fiddling.
> So in your experience, have any USB controllers/devices faster
> than 2.0 gotten off the ground yet?
I'm personally not close enough to the cutting edge to notice. As long as
my digital camera works, I'm happy. :)
Steve Pope
>spo...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) writes:
>> So in your experience, have any USB controllers/devices faster
>> than 2.0 gotten off the ground yet?
>I'm personally not close enough to the cutting edge to notice. As long as
>my digital camera works, I'm happy. :)
Right.
I'm curious because things like wireless adapters are becoming
faster than can be handled by 2.0. But it doesn't seem
3.0 is here just yet.
Steve
Ed
news:h3ikpj$fcr$1...@blue.rahul.net:
Not sure what adapters you're thinking of. USB 2.0 supports up to 480
Mb/s which is far faster than effective transfer rates of any wireless
technology I am familiar with. (Keep in mind that wireless bandwidth in
a spread spectrum technology like 802.11n does not imply effective
throughput, but just total available bandwidth for all devices
communicating within that spectrum. They "typical" throughput for
802.11n, for example is 144 Mb/s and there are very few real world
applications that would even drive that.)
--
Ed
Steve Pope
>spo...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote in
>> I'm curious because things like wireless adapters are becoming
>> faster than can be handled by 2.0. But it doesn't seem
>> 3.0 is here just yet.
>Not sure what adapters you're thinking of. USB 2.0 supports up to 480
>Mb/s which is far faster than effective transfer rates of any wireless
>technology I am familiar with.
Devices which are, or will have faster line rates [see below]
than 480 mbps include WiMedia devices (most have a mode with
a 1 gbps line rate), 802.15.3c devices, and upcoming 802.11ad
devices. 802.11n also has modes with line rates between 500
mbps and 1 Gbps.
>(Keep in mind that wireless bandwidth in
>a spread spectrum technology like 802.11n does not imply effective
>throughput, but just total available bandwidth for all devices
>communicating within that spectrum.
A couple things. For any of these standards, including
USB, the user throughput isn't equal to the line rate
due to a series of protocol overheads. Probably the
overhead is higher in some wireless standards than in
USB, but it is in many cases comparable.
Secondly, no 802.11n modes are spread-spectrum. The
only spread-spectrum modes in the 802.11 family are
the original 1 mbps and 2 mbps modes in 802.11 (no
suffix). Nothing from 802.11a and onwards is
spread-spectrum, although the popular reporting on
the subject is do deficient I am not surprised you
may have gained this impression.
>They "typical" throughput for
>802.11n, for example is 144 Mb/s and there are very few real world
>applications that would even drive that.)
It may improve in newer hardware.
Steve
Ed
@blue.rahul.net:
> Ed <edcomm1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>spo...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote in
>
>>> I'm curious because things like wireless adapters are becoming
>>> faster than can be handled by 2.0. But it doesn't seem
>>> 3.0 is here just yet.
>
>>Not sure what adapters you're thinking of. USB 2.0 supports up to 480
>>Mb/s which is far faster than effective transfer rates of any wireless
>>technology I am familiar with.
>
> Devices which are, or will have faster line rates [see below]
> than 480 mbps include WiMedia devices (most have a mode with
> a 1 gbps line rate), 802.15.3c devices, and upcoming 802.11ad
> devices. 802.11n also has modes with line rates between 500
> mbps and 1 Gbps.
I am not sure if, by line rate, you mean the effective bit rate over the
air or over the USB wire.
>
>>(Keep in mind that wireless bandwidth in
>>a spread spectrum technology like 802.11n does not imply effective
>>throughput, but just total available bandwidth for all devices
>>communicating within that spectrum.
>
> A couple things. For any of these standards, including
> USB, the user throughput isn't equal to the line rate
> due to a series of protocol overheads. Probably the
> overhead is higher in some wireless standards than in
> USB, but it is in many cases comparable.
I don't know the USB protocol either, but it's likely that block sizes
are larger than those over the air, so you're probably right.
>
> Secondly, no 802.11n modes are spread-spectrum. The
> only spread-spectrum modes in the 802.11 family are
> the original 1 mbps and 2 mbps modes in 802.11 (no
> suffix). Nothing from 802.11a and onwards is
> spread-spectrum, although the popular reporting on
> the subject is do deficient I am not surprised you
> may have gained this impression.
You are right. I stand corrected. I had assumed that since the early
specs were SS, the latter ones would be too. It turns out, on
inspection, that the orthogonal frequency division multiplexing (OFDM)
is very similar to a standard near and dear to my heart, DOCSIS, which
is the protocol cable companies use for high-speed data.
>
>>They "typical" throughput for
>>802.11n, for example is 144 Mb/s and there are very few real world
>>applications that would even drive that.)
>
> It may improve in newer hardware.
Always does. My only point was that I think USB 2.0 will probably
support most rational applications for the near future. I suspect USB
3.0 will be available well before most people will need it. Moreover,
the newer standards will likely be built into laptops natively even
before that.
--
Ed
Steve Pope
>spo...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote in news:h3ipec$1rm$1
>> Devices which are, or will have faster line rates [see below]
>> than 480 mbps include [..]
>I am not sure if, by line rate, you mean the effective bit rate over the
>air or over the USB wire.
Line rate (as I use the term) is an unachievable upper limit
on the datarate that would be what you'd get if you could
continuously transmit data-containing bauds on the wire or over
the air, without having to have any overhead from headers,
preambles, or turnaround time, or anything having to do with
MAC or upper layers or lost transmissions. It does however include
error correction overhead. So in terms of line rate, USB is
480 mbps, 802.11g is 54 mbps, and a 2400 baud modem is 2400 bps.
It is often the advertised number for a given technology.
>> Secondly, no 802.11n modes are spread-spectrum. The
>> only spread-spectrum modes in the 802.11 family are
>> the original 1 mbps and 2 mbps modes in 802.11 (no
>> suffix). Nothing from 802.11a and onwards is
>> spread-spectrum, although the popular reporting on
>> the subject is do deficient I am not surprised you
>> may have gained this impression.
>You are right. I stand corrected. I had assumed that since the early
>specs were SS, the latter ones would be too. It turns out, on
>inspection, that the orthogonal frequency division multiplexing (OFDM)
>is very similar to a standard near and dear to my heart, DOCSIS, which
>is the protocol cable companies use for high-speed data.
Part of the confusion stems from the regulatory agencies originally
requiring spreading in some of the bands 802.11 operates in, which
resulted in some participants sort of hedging the question of whether
their systems actually used spreading. But this interval of
obsfucation was at least a decade ago.
Steve
Steve Pope
>And I'm a theater geek, with side trips into selective technology (yes
>to computers, yes to digital cameras, yes to e-book readers, no to cell
>phones, PDAs and high-definition TV ...)
>Although many self-identified geeks come from the computer world,
>geekery, to me, is about the focused passion more than the subject
>matter ...
I feel that a strong social precursor to computer geeks were
the railroad anoraks (a.k.a. trainspotters).
For an interval of time, there was some use of the phrase
"computer anoraks" to refer to early-day computer geeks.
Steve
Todd Michel McComb
Pat Kight <kig...@peak.org> wrote:
>Although many self-identified geeks come from the computer world,
>geekery, to me, is about the focused passion more than the subject
>matter ...
Does it make sense to you to use the term on subjects that are more
about human interaction?
fla_sunshine
Before computers were accessable, both my brother and I were amateur
radio geeks (a,k,a, ham radio enthusiasts).
Tony Parker
Pat Kight
Yep.
I know at least one linguistics geek. You can't get much more "about
human interaction" than talking about language.
--
Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Todd Michel McComb
Pat Kight <kig...@peak.org> wrote:
>I know at least one linguistics geek. You can't get much more
>"about human interaction" than talking about language.
Hmm, you do have a point, but I can certainly envision such a person
who doesn't actually do much interacting with people. My wife and
son are both arguably linguistics geeks, actually.
Ed
@agricola.medieval.org:
It is easy to say no to this but, I'm proud of my geekiness, but I am as
social as anyone I know.
I guess I tend to attribute my geekiness to those interests I have that
I don't share with most of my social friends, but I have a good group of
geeky friends with whom I'm social about those those things that I
consider geeky. They just happen to be different friends.
--
Ed
David Weinshenker
> I do occassionally have JCL withdrawals
Now -that's- kinky!
-dave w
Steve Pope
>My only point was that I think USB 2.0 will probably
>support most rational applications for the near future. I suspect USB
>3.0 will be available well before most people will need it. Moreover,
>the newer standards will likely be built into laptops natively even
>before that.
One more comment... the usefulness of USB adapters for adding
functionality to a laptop or desktop is considerable, and I
think is going to remain with us. And, wireless standards shift
around alot in addition to getting faster. Putting these
together, I would personally like the next computer I personally
own to have USB 3.0 ... that way it's (probably) reasonably
future-proofed against these faster wireless speeds.
However it's going to be a few more months before this
is even possible.
Steve
Pat Kight
I think maybe you're thinking of the *stereotype* of geeks as asocial
loners immersed in [subjectmatter] to the point of avoiding human
interaction. And sure, I know some geeks who fit that stereotype. But
the counter-examples abound, even in "classic" geek culture; one need
only look at the proliferation of cons, which attract thousands of
people who would probably self-identify as geeks, but which are nothing
if not social.
In my experience, social awkwardness and geekery do not map as closely
as the stereotype might suggest. Certainly some geeks get hyperfocused
on [subjectmatter] as a way of avoiding people, but I know just as many
whose geekery is a path to *associating* with people who share their
passions.
--
Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Aahz Maruch
You are conflating awkwardness and loners. IME, geekery *is* often
associated with awkwardness, but as you point out, not so much with lack
of social interest.
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
"The volume of a pizza of thickness 'a' and radius 'z' is
given by pi*z*z*a"
Todd Michel McComb
Yes, I've seen a lot of that too. I was just wondering about a
situation where [subjectmatter] is the people.
Russ Allbery
> You are conflating awkwardness and loners. IME, geekery *is* often
> associated with awkwardness, but as you point out, not so much with lack
> of social interest.
This thread is reinforcing all the reasons why I hate the term "Geek
Answer Syndrome." It seems like people want to be talking about me or
people who think similarly to me when they say "geek," but then they
associate the term with all sorts of behaviors that aren't the way I
interact with the world at all and treat it as a package deal.
The square hole into which the term "geek" shoves people is really
unappealing.
Ed
news:n2ms55hhoc3g2bcj3...@4ax.com:
> In alt.polyamory, (Steve Pope) wrote in <h3ipec$1rm$1
@blue.rahul.net>::
>
>>Secondly, no 802.11n modes are spread-spectrum. The
>>only spread-spectrum modes in the 802.11 family are
>>the original 1 mbps and 2 mbps modes in 802.11 (no
>>suffix). Nothing from 802.11a and onwards is
>>spread-spectrum, although the popular reporting on
>>the subject is do deficient I am not surprised you
>>may have gained this impression.
>
> Off-topic, somewhat, but I think it's a wonderful fact[1] that one of
> the patent-holders for spread-spectrum broadcasting was Hedy Lamarr.
It is one of my favorite stories, and I tell it when I do my cable
technology training class (a form of spread spectrum called Synchronied
Code-Detection Multiple Access is used on the upstream channels for the
newer DOCSIS standards).
--
Ed
Phoenix
> ... one of
> the patent-holders for spread-spectrum broadcasting was Hedy Lamarr.
That's Hedley. HEDLEY.
--
Deborah
"Are we...awake?"
Steve Pope
>Chickpea wrote:
>> ... one of
>> the patent-holders for spread-spectrum broadcasting was Hedy Lamarr.
>That's Hedley. HEDLEY.
Nice one. :-)
Steve
Aahz Maruch
Phoenix <drup...@clearspringlabs.com> wrote:
>Chickpea wrote:
>>
>> ... one of
>> the patent-holders for spread-spectrum broadcasting was Hedy Lamarr.
>
>That's Hedley. HEDLEY.
Deborah, you're always fronking around.
Pat Kight
Perhaps. However, I was responding to what seemed to be Todd's
contention that geeks don't interact with other people. Some don't, but
an awful lot do, awkwardly or not.
--
Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Pat Kight
about geeks are no more accurate than most stereotypes turn out to be.
--
Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
eilinel
"We are...but we're very confused."
One of my favorite films of all time....
Eilinel, whose favorite scene is probably the movie-cowboy pose with
the Gucci saddlebags.
Russ Allbery
> Russ Allbery wrote:
>> This thread is reinforcing all the reasons why I hate the term "Geek
>> Answer Syndrome." It seems like people want to be talking about me or
>> people who think similarly to me when they say "geek," but then they
>> associate the term with all sorts of behaviors that aren't the way I
>> interact with the world at all and treat it as a package deal.
>> The square hole into which the term "geek" shoves people is really
>> unappealing.
> That's kind of the point I was trying to make: That the stereotypes
> about geeks are no more accurate than most stereotypes turn out to be.
Yeah, exactly. Thank you.
Phoenix
Personally, I'm torn between "I Get No Kick From Champagne" and
"Is it twue what they say about... It's TWUE! It's TWUE!"
--
Deborah
but never too soon
Phoenix
> In alt.polyamory, (Phoenix) wrote in
> <7aydnWlC79GhGcPX...@pdx.net>::
>
>> Chickpea wrote:
>>
>>> ... one of
>>> the patent-holders for spread-spectrum broadcasting was Hedy Lamarr.
>> That's Hedley. HEDLEY.
>
Yes, and....?
--
Deborah
adores Gene Wilder, hoo-boy
Rob Wynne
"A man drinks like that and he don't eat, he is going to *die*."
<long thoughtful pause> "When?"
--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
http://www.autographedcat.com/ / http://autographedcat.livejournal.com/
Gafilk 2010: Jan 8-10, 2010 - Atlanta, GA - http://www.gafilk.org/
Aphelion - Original SF&F since 1997 - http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/
Todd Michel McComb
Pat Kight <kig...@peak.org> wrote:
>That's kind of the point I was trying to make: That the stereotypes
>about geeks are no more accurate than most stereotypes turn out to
>be.
When you say most, do you have an example of a stereotype that turns
out to be very accurate? :-)
Todd Michel McComb
Pat Kight <kig...@peak.org> wrote:
>I was responding to what seemed to be Todd's contention that geeks
>don't interact with other people.
Oh, well, I think even the most stereotypical geek interacts with
other people interested in the same subject. I was just wondering
about how far we could tweak the idea of "subject" for some of the
same patterns to apply.
866013149e
>On Jul 14, 7:40=A0pm, spop...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
>> Pat Kight =A0<kig...@peak.org> wrote:
>>
>> >And I'm a theater geek, with side trips into selective technology (yes
>> >to computers, yes to digital cameras, yes to e-book readers, no to cell
>> >phones, PDAs and high-definition TV ...)
>> >Although many self-identified geeks come from the computer world,
>> >geekery, to me, is about the focused passion more than the subject
>> >matter ...
>>
>> I feel that a strong social precursor to computer geeks were
>> the railroad anoraks (a.k.a. trainspotters). =A0
>>
>> For an interval of time, there was some use of the phrase
>> "computer anoraks" to refer to early-day computer geeks.
>Before computers were accessable, both my brother and I were amateur
>radio geeks (a,k,a, ham radio enthusiasts).
As was I, but my introduction to ham radio and computers came more or
less at the same time.
I was a shortwave radio enthusiast before that, and also a model
rocketeer.
umar
Pat Kight
I think some stereotypes (certainly not all of them) are founded in a
grain of truth, or at least observable group behaviors. See the "MAS is
sexist" thread, for example.
--
Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Todd Michel McComb
Pat Kight <kig...@peak.org> wrote:
>I think some stereotypes (certainly not all of them) are founded
>in a grain of truth, or at least observable group behaviors. See
>the "MAS is sexist" thread, for example.
Yeah, and I think we can say something very broadly about "geeks"
(whatever those are, exactly), but most of that stuff doesn't stand
to serious scrutiny.
OTOH, there are some stereotypes that just make *no* sense whatsoever.
The "Mexicans are lazy" one has always perplexed me greatly. Does
anyone even know the history of that?
Russ Allbery
> OTOH, there are some stereotypes that just make *no* sense whatsoever.
> The "Mexicans are lazy" one has always perplexed me greatly. Does
> anyone even know the history of that?
Isn't that a standard working underclass thing? I seem to recall similar
things being said about blacks, Irish, etc. through history. All the
people who the ruling class expect to work hard and not make trouble seem
to get called lazy because they're not working as hard as their masters
want.
Todd Michel McComb
Russ Allbery <r...@stanford.edu> wrote:
>Isn't that a standard working underclass thing? I seem to recall
>similar things being said about blacks, Irish, etc. through history.
Maybe you're right. And calling things exactly the opposite of
what they are is classic marketing.
Pat Kight
> fla_sunshine <t_e_p...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> Before computers were accessable, both my brother and I were amateur
>> radio geeks (a,k,a, ham radio enthusiasts).
>
> As was I, but my introduction to ham radio and computers came more or
> less at the same time.
I sometimes wonder, in an idle sort of way, if the advent of Internet
access has pretty much wiped out the ham radio community. Do you know?
When I was a kid, we had a neighbor who was a ham radio fancier, and
what impressed us all the most was the whole "wow, you can talk to
people *all over the world* right from your own house" aspect of it. The
Internet kind of takes the coolness factor out of that, I'd think.
> I was a shortwave radio enthusiast before that, and also a model
> rocketeer.
A Popular Science geek!
--
Pat Kight
kig...@peak.org
Steve Pope
>I sometimes wonder, in an idle sort of way, if the advent of Internet
>access has pretty much wiped out the ham radio community. Do you know?
Here's what I have picked up on the topic:
It certainly hasn't wiped it out. The shift in technology has
forced and otherwise induced some changes. One no longer needs
to learn Morse Code to be an amateur operator, and the old
restrictions against tranmistting data (which had been disallowed
on the basis of it not containing an obvious call ID) are gone.
The bigger displacement has probably come not from the Internet,
but from cellular technology, which is viewed as having cancelled
out some of amateur's role in things like emergency services.
The amateurs still have a voice in wireless standards and
regulation, and their representatives (the ARRL in the U.S.) still
participate in all the development groups. It is still true
that many aspects of radio systems trace back to something the
amateurs did first.
Steve
Aqua
> 866013149e wrote:
>> fla_sunshine <t_e_p...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>
>>> Before computers were accessable, both my brother and I were amateur
>>> radio geeks (a,k,a, ham radio enthusiasts).
>>
>> As was I, but my introduction to ham radio and computers came more or
>> less at the same time.
>
> I sometimes wonder, in an idle sort of way, if the advent of Internet
> access has pretty much wiped out the ham radio community. Do you know?
I have a friend who is a wireless enthusiast. The larger group (which I
happen to also have met) does tend rather to silver and gray, but
they're lively enough.
There might be parallels with usenet :-).
Aqua
866013149e
>Pat Kight <kig...@peak.org> wrote:
>>I sometimes wonder, in an idle sort of way, if the advent of Internet
>>access has pretty much wiped out the ham radio community. Do you know?
>Here's what I have picked up on the topic:
>It certainly hasn't wiped it out. The shift in technology has
>forced and otherwise induced some changes. One no longer needs
>to learn Morse Code to be an amateur operator, and the old
>restrictions against tranmistting data (which had been disallowed
>on the basis of it not containing an obvious call ID) are gone.
You can transmit data, but you may only use ASCII, Baudot, or Morse, and
at glacial speeds. There are draconian content restrictions, too.
There's almost no one on the air under 50; it's become a club for old
men.
>The bigger displacement has probably come not from the Internet,
>but from cellular technology, which is viewed as having cancelled
>out some of amateur's role in things like emergency services.
In real emergencies cellular service often fails, though, or gets maxed
out. The hams are still useful to have around.
It used to be that they and their frequency spectrum were also a useful
resource for the military. But nowadays the military uses technologies
hams aren't allowed to play with, and it has enough satellite bandwidth
that it no longer needs their spectrum.
>The amateurs still have a voice in wireless standards and
>regulation, and their representatives (the ARRL in the U.S.) still
>participate in all the development groups. It is still true
>that many aspects of radio systems trace back to something the
>amateurs did first.
If hams weren't restricted to a list of approved modulation and encoding
schemes dating from decadees ago, that might still be true today. But
the state of the art has passed them by.
If I were in charge, I'd open up at least the UHF and SHF ham bands to
any sort of modulation or encoding, limited only by the need not to
interfere with other communications. Oh, and get rid of the content
restrictions, too.
umar
Irfon-Kim Ahmad
> In alt.polyamory, (Todd Michel McComb) wrote in
><h3j53i$35p$1...@agricola.medieval.org>::
>
>>In article <lJmdnaGeFfXhQsbX...@scnresearch.com>,
>>Pat Kight <kig...@peak.org> wrote:
>>>Although many self-identified geeks come from the computer world,
>>>geekery, to me, is about the focused passion more than the subject
>>>matter ...
>>
>>about human interaction?
>
> Yes. The essence of geekery is the attention to the detail. Calculating
> word-frequency in Shakespeare plays would geekery.
>
> It doesn't have to be bits'n'bytes. My late brother in law was a
> military-uniform geek: we'd be watching some WWII or Napoleonic epic,
> and he'd say something like: "Those buttons are wrong with that jacket-
> different period altogether."
I got teased relentlessly for complaining that the Yamaha DX7 does not
actually have buttons to play cheesy rhythms of the cheap-home-organ
sort as it's depicted to have in the animated film, "Monsters vs.
Aliens."
Aqua
For the film "Jurassic Park", the microscope supplier (I think Olympus)
ran a competition I only saw advertised in science magazines: tell us
what part of the microscope was removed for the purposes of looking good
on camera, for a chance to win your own!
Aqua
Teal
> For the film "Jurassic Park", the microscope supplier (I think Olympus)
> ran a competition I only saw advertised in science magazines: tell us
> what part of the microscope was removed for the purposes of looking good
> on camera, for a chance to win your own!
Ooo, now I'm going to have to watch it again to find out! My
recently-aquired microscope is an Olympus, so unless it's something
pretty subtle that was removed, I expect I'd be able to pick it. :-)
Teal