i'm the "other woman"
dan...@ukans.edu
Hello,
I've been lurking around for a while. I'm fascinated by
the concept of polyamory, especially the "honesty" part of
it.
I've been the "other woman" in a somewhat traditional
affair which has been going on for over two years now. My
lover is not legally married, but has been living with the
same woman for over a decade. He was previously very well
off and had acquired significant assets, which by our state
laws, she owns half of.
When we got together, it was a tumultuous period in his
life and he had lost his income. He and his common-law wife
were not getting along and I (foolishly) believed they were
going to split up. BTW, he is a very gentle, mild-mannered,
sweet person who doesn't have a mean bone in his body. We are
all in our forties.
Anyway, to make a long story short, he hasn't left her, most
likely never will, and I am just beginning to accept that. I can
also accept that he doesn't want to lose his paid-off house in
the country, and some business assets, etc. along with causing
a major emotional upheaval. I also accept that he loves her. I
know he loves me differently, and frankly, I'd rather have three
good hours a week with his undivided, loving attention, than be
the wife he is lying to.
I just hate the dishonesty and the cheating. I wish so much I
could convince him to just tell her about me. (I believe she may have
suspected something about a year ago.) I wouldn't try to "take
him" from her. I would just like to be able to sleep through the
night with him and maybe go somewhere in public without total
paranoia. The worst feeling in the world is when he starts looking at the
clock and has to go. Plus, I'm tired of feeling jealous.
So, if anyone has any words of wisdom, please pass them on. I
truly love this person, but I see myself being objectified--
like I'm in a little box on a shelf that he can take out and
play with and then put back away! I know he doesn't want to
lose me either, but if I gave him an ultimatum, I would lose.
Thanks for any suggestions.
Danette Leighanna
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
'mathochist' Angela Long
In article <8689793...@dejanews.com>, <dan...@ukans.edu> wrote:
> I've been the "other woman" in a somewhat traditional
>affair which has been going on for over two years now. My
>a major emotional upheaval. I also accept that he loves her. I
>know he loves me differently, and frankly, I'd rather have three
>good hours a week with his undivided, loving attention, than be
>the wife he is lying to.
Um. If he'd lie to her, what makes you think he wouldn't
lie to you, too? Last time I let myself be talked into
knowingly doing something behind another partner's back,
it turned out the asshole was cheating on both of us with
a third person as well!
--
-- Angi (angi...@math.washington.edu)
Mwcalab
> I know he doesn't want to
>lose me either, but if I gave him an ultimatum
And what ultimatum do you give yourself? There is
a point where you and your needs have to come first.
It doesn't matter if it is a mono or a poly situation.
You have to ask yourself what do you really want
out of this relationship and what are you willing to
put up with. What he does or thinks is not as
critical as what you feel and think to you.
Swiftie
Jon Sullivan
On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:24:10 -0600, dan...@ukans.edu wrote:
> I've been the "other woman" in a somewhat traditional
>affair which has been going on for over two years now.
>
>sweet person who doesn't have a mean bone in his body.
>
>likely never will,
>
>good hours a week with his undivided, loving attention, than be
>the wife he is lying to.
>
>clock and has to go. Plus, I'm tired of feeling jealous.
I was the cheating husband in a relationship like this about seven
years ago. I've since matured and become more responsible.
Keep in mind that I don't know this guy, but in situations like this I
think men are rather two dimensional. They think with their dicks.
So I'll be making some assumptions I feel comfortable with.
First of all, it sure sucks to be you in this relationship. You might
be getting three hours a week of real quality attention, but I
remember looking at the clock. That's cold, and in my opinion, mean.
He might be sweet and kind to you, but to outside observers he's
dishonest, immature, irresponsible, and manipulative. I can say this
after years of introspection about the affair I had. It was wrong and
I ended up hurting two people I cared about.
I eventually left my wife to be with the woman, but it didn't work
out. The main reason was that our relationship was based on a few
quality hours a week. When it suddenly became a few quality hours
surrounded by lots of normal hours things fell apart. Keep that it
mind. Your relationship with this man is rather superficial. Sorry,
but it is.
I'm ashamed to say that I was objectifying the woman was cheating
with. She was very honest and realistic about things just as you are,
but it's still the same in the end. There's a small piece he can't
get from his wife so he's getting it from you (and possibly others).
"shop lifting the pooty" is a good way to put it.
Bottom line, unless I'm really misinterpreting things, this guy is a
total jerk. If you do get him to tell his wife two things (I'm
simplifying) could happen. Either she figures she can continue giving
up the three hours you're getting , or she decides to cut her losses
and take half his stuff.
In the first case, you're now officially a mistress and that's
probably all you'll ever get. In the second case, you're officially a
home wrecker.
As I said, it sucks to be you. Don't get me wrong, I don't think for
one second you're a bad person. I apologize if I'm being too harsh.
Polyamory means loving many, this guy may not really love either one
of you. If you really enjoy what you're getting from this man then
fine, you're lucky. It sounds to me though that you're not happy.
Think about what the mature, responible thing to do would be.
I'm sorry that I don't have any good straight forward advice to give
you. I just wanted you to get a different perspective.
Jon Sullivan
jo...@compute.com
http://www.ni.net/~jons
Helen Vickers
dan...@ukans.edu wrote:
> Hello,
> I've been lurking around for a while. I'm fascinated by
> the concept of polyamory, especially the "honesty" part of
> it.
> I've been the "other woman" in a somewhat traditional
> affair which has been going on for over two years now. My
> lover is not legally married, but has been living with the
> same woman for over a decade. He was previously very well
> off and had acquired significant assets, which by our state
> laws, she owns half of.
>
<snip>
Well, I have been there myself, although our affair did not last 2 years
(his wife "discovered" us after only a few months) I hated sneaking
around. Although when we first got together, it was simply for the sex.
I am younger than he was, and wanted a teacher, he wanted a mistress. It
was only as our relationship grew, from being based on sex, to being
based on friendship, and confidences, that we realized our nice little
uncommitted relationship was backfiring on both of us. We realized we
loved one another at about that same time, but were in a quandry as to
what to do about it. He wanted to put off telling her until he was set
to go overseas, for a year, and I was pretty sure I wouldn't be able to
handle being secretive about it for that long, not too mention I kept
telling myself, he won't tell her. I was trying to be realistic... I was
about to tell him that I wanted to keep my distance from him, until he
told her, when she called one day, asking me if I was having an affair
with her husband. (There is no worse feeling that I can think of, than
being stuck like that.)
I spent the entire phone conversation telling her she needed to
speak to her husband about it. it was not my place to share that
information with her. (Which was pretty much telling her that, yeah, I
was, but until she spoke to him about it, i was not going to be abused
by her.) I may have been wrong, but she did confront him, found his
Christmas present from me to him (Which had a love letter in it, of
course) and she left him before Christmas that year.
After that, he and I almost became inseperable. We have a lot in
common, and were finally able to marry one another last summer (we just
celebrated our first anniversery, and we have a three month old son.
I was, and am, definitely one of the few lucky ones. And the biggest
reason that I think things will be different with me and him, is because
we are open. If he wants to have sex with another woman, I will gladly
cook them dinner (if I am invited of course... I am no slave, except to
the baby <G>) and I am just as certain that he would drive me to any
rendezvous I wanted to make. (I can't drive right now... cast on my
leg.) The only unforgiveable sin, to cheat (be with someone, without
telling the other partner) because that is an unecessary risk for
disease.
We live with the motto, "honesty and openness". The first year was
wonderful, and we are both looking forward to the rest of them.
Helen
Jester
Both of the previous suggestions (quoted below) involve telling the
*primary* woman. Put yourself in her shoes for a moment, and imagine
her reaction to her husband's lover telling her he is cheating. This
could well put him in an either/or position, i.e. "Either you leave
her, or I leave you."
You could also do this: Tell him that either *he* tells her, or you
discontinue the relationship with him. That should at least
demonstrate to him your discomfort.
You are in a difficult and uncomfortable position, I am sure, but only
you can decide on the course of action which will best relieve your
stress. You must decide what values to place on your relationship and
on your well-being.
Peace and Success,
Jester ;-}
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:41:19 GMT, tims...@netcom.com (Tim Starr)
wrote:
>In article <stefEDD...@netcom.com>,
>Stef Jones <st...@cat-and-dragon.com> wrote:
>> <dan...@ukans.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>I just hate the dishonesty and the cheating. I wish so much I
>>>could convince him to just tell her about me. (I believe she may have
>>>suspected something about a year ago.) I wouldn't try to "take
>>>him" from her. I would just like to be able to sleep through the
>>>night with him and maybe go somewhere in public without total
>>>paranoia. The worst feeling in the world is when he starts looking at the
>>>clock and has to go. Plus, I'm tired of feeling jealous.
>>>
>>>So, if anyone has any words of wisdom, please pass them on. I
>>>truly love this person, but I see myself being objectified--
>>>like I'm in a little box on a shelf that he can take out and
>>>play with and then put back away! I know he doesn't want to
>>>lose me either, but if I gave him an ultimatum, I would lose.
>>
>>Only thing you can do with him, way I see it, is to keep on suggesting that
>>he tell his wife.
>
>No, she could tell his wife herself, too. That might lead to additional
>problems, but so will keeping her in the dark longer & longer. I think it
>would be better for her to know the truth, the sooner the better, no matter
>who she hears it from.
>
>"Other Woman" could give him an ultimatum: "Either you tell your wife about us,
>or I will."
>
>Of course, I have no personal experience with anything like this, because I'd
>never lie to someone like that to begin with. So I could be completely wrong.
>But it is another possibility worth considering.
>
>Tim
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Putting the fun back in dysFUNctional.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
dan...@ukans.edu
In article <33ccbd11...@news.ni.net>,
Thank you, Jon, Terry, Angi, and any others (my newsreader doesn't seem
to capture every post) who have responded to my post. One of you kindly
advised me about being careful what I post as anyone with a web browser
can look up my articles....whew!
Anyway, I need to hear all of this. Especially from those of you who've
been there. I probably won't do anything drastic as far as cutting off
the affair immediately, but I know I need to get my head out of the sand.
Jon, your post (above) is especially poignant to me. The truth hurts but
hopefully it will also "set me free." As I said before, I feel like a
prisoner in this relationship. I have no say...plus I know men hate
clingy women, so I've tried so hard to just act like everything's fine
and that I enjoy his company. But sometimes, I'd start crying when I was
with him. I just couldn't help it. I told him that I thought what we were
doing was sleazy. Then he'd say, "do you want me to stop calling?" and
I'd say "no" b/c I'd remember how I felt when I'd cut it off before.
Do I sound very emotionally immature? As I write this, it seems so.
Take care,
Danette
DnGrUsWmn
Ok Guys and Gals....I'm new here....but I need some help along the same
lines.....
I met a wonderful guy thru the internet/ became friends/ and eventually
met and became lovers.....WE are both married......
We stay in touch every day...sometimes twice a day by phone....and meet
whenever we can (over 1500 miles apart) . We never run out of things to
talk about and seem to be hopelessly in love with each other.....We are
into our 50's / have been married for years and raised our
families.....now getting close to retirement we cannot face the idea of
settling with our mates for the rest of our lives....
HELP.....I need some advice......All I have to do is leave...and him the
same (he says he is ready....and keeps asking when I'm ready)......Anybody
ever been in this situation???
'mathochist' Angela Long
In article <8691694...@dejanews.com>, <dan...@ukans.edu> wrote:
>hopefully it will also "set me free." As I said before, I feel like a
>prisoner in this relationship. I have no say...plus I know men hate
>clingy women, so I've tried so hard to just act like everything's fine
>and that I enjoy his company. But sometimes, I'd start crying when I was
>with him. I just couldn't help it. I told him that I thought what we were
>doing was sleazy. Then he'd say, "do you want me to stop calling?" and
>I'd say "no" b/c I'd remember how I felt when I'd cut it off before.
>Do I sound very emotionally immature? As I write this, it seems so.
No, you just sound human.
Your relationship has been going on for about two years.
Your man has had plenty of time to tell his wife, plenty
of time to change things, if he was going to. If he has
not by now, he won't. This, I'm afraid, is the cold
truth: what you have now is all you will ever have with
him. You will never go out in public together. You
will never spend the night together. You will always
have no say. You will always feel like a prisoner. He
will always look at his watch.
You know how ending it will feel. But what's the alter-
native? How will it feel to be stuck right where you
are, forever?
You don't sound ready to end this. And that's wise,
because if you end it before you're really ready, it's
likely you'll walk right into something similar again.
But something else to think about: you do enjoy his
company. If you end things without too much drama,
there is a chance that after some time to cool off,
you'll be able to enjoy his company again, as friends.
But if you wait until things get maybe even messier,
you might lose that possibility altogether.
Good luck.
--
-- Angi (angi...@math.washington.edu)
Tim Starr
In article <aahzEDH...@netcom.com>, Aahz <aa...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <timstarrE...@netcom.com>,
>Tim Starr <tims...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <stefEDD...@netcom.com>,
>>Stef Jones <st...@cat-and-dragon.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Only thing you can do with him, way I see it, is to keep on suggesting
>>>that he tell his wife.
>>
>>No, she could tell his wife herself, too. That might lead to
>>additional problems, but so will keeping her in the dark longer &
>>longer. I think it would be better for her to know the truth, the
>>sooner the better, no matter who she hears it from.
>>
>>"Other Woman" could give him an ultimatum: "Either you tell your wife
>>about us, or I will."
>
It's unethical to lie to people, to secretly break promises of romantic
exclusivity.
>One should not knowingly pass on a secret to the person being kept out of the
>the loop.
What's so ethical about playing along with such an awful deception?
>At the most, the ultimatum should be, "Either you tell your wife or we break
>up."
That's another alternative, but I don't see what makes it preferable.
Tim
bearpaw
Terri Schurter <schu...@mars.superlink.net> writes:
> ...
>I am also the other woman involved with a married man so I know of what
>I speak. My lover is happy in his relationship and we never believed
>there was a chance that he would leave his wife. He and I discussed the
>difference in the way he handles things as compared to the way I do (I am
>honest with my husband). My lover, J, says that he decided not long
>ago that his philosophy in life is to "choose being kind over being
>right". It would be right to tell his wife about us, but he does not
>believe that it would be kind.
> ...
IMHO, he's rationalizing or mistaken. Or both. Dishonesty is "kind"?
Living a lie with the person one is supposedly in a most intimate
relationship is "kind"? Subjecting them to physical and emotional risks
without their consent is "kind"? Bullshit. It's manipulative and
arrogant and self-serving.
>Her life is
>the same whether I am in his life or not, and that is by design.
> ...
Assuming this were as true as possible, it's not *entirely* true.
It *can't* be. If you are at all important to him, you have some
effect on who he is. And that, necessarily and unavoidably, has
an effect on their relationship.
>IMO There is nothing wrong with your deciding to keep your relationship a
>secret if that is what works for you. It may not be a popular
>decision to make in the poly community, but dare to be different if
>you want.
> ...
"Dare to be different"? By cheating? <snort>
In any case, judging something by whether it's "popular" with the
"poly community" is entirely irrelevant. One would be better off
making an effort to find out *why* so many poly folk think
dishonesty in relationships is a bad idea. I'll volunteer a couple
of reasons myself:
1) It's a temporary solution. The longer the situation lasts, the
more likely it is that someone will slip up. One lie contradicts
another, someone stumbles onto letters, whatever. The "tangled web"
breaks, the shit hits the fan, and the "kindness" is shown for what
it is.
2) Deception is insidious. If one consistantly lies to someone,
then -- as long as the deception lasts -- lying seems like a real
answer. So one is more likely to lie about other things and to
other people. Including oneself. *Bad* habit to get into. One
tangled web is hard enough to keep track of. If one has a life
full of them ...
Bearpaw
+-< beard...@world.std.com >-< http://world.std.com/~bearpaw/ >-+
| "The right to be heard does not include the right to be taken |
| seriously." -- Hubert H. Humphrey |
\ ** Note: Spam-Reduction Characters in Reply-To Address ** /
Aidan Skinner
Aahz <aa...@netcom.com> wrote the following:
>I won't say that I am the poly community ;-), but I think I do speak for
"we are aahz of poly, you will be assimilated"? ;)
- Aidan
--
| "We are not the Gestapo, we simply like their cool uniforms." - Xthlic /|/| |
| website http://www.skinner.demon.co.uk don't e-mail me right now |
| Gonna get the girl, gonna kill the spammers, and save the internet |
| I love the smell of burnt spammer in the morning, smells like... victory |
piranha
In article <33CE52...@mars.superlink.net>,
Terri Schurter <schu...@mars.superlink.net> wrote:
>
>I am also the other woman involved with a married man so I know of what
>I speak. My lover is happy in his relationship and we never believed
>there was a chance that he would leave his wife. He and I discussed the
>difference in the way he handles things as compared to the way I do (I am
>honest with my husband). My lover, J, says that he decided not long
>ago that his philosophy in life is to "choose being kind over being
>right".
you won't like hearing this about your lover, but this sounds
like typical self-serving rationalization to me.
after she finds out, ask her whether she thought it was kind.
i didn't think so when i found out i was being lied to and
cheated on. i would have been ok if i had been told, quite
probably; even after finding out i still tried to work things
out amicably. but the trust that was broken was simply irre-
parable. it was such a betrayal, of what we had promised to
each other (the part about "honour", not the part about "for-
saking all others"; i cared much more about honour), of what
i believed we were to each other, of what i believed he saw
in me. it was shattering to find out.
and it was made much worse by how i found out -- my partner
didn't tell me; i was told by a busybody friend of zirs, i
didn't even believe it, i defended my partner and told the
person off, and then i walked in on them. no, i can't re-
commend the experience.
and anyone who thinks risking this all is "kind" has no con-
cept of honour, trust _or_ kindness. or is very immature and
hasn't thought about such things at all.
>It would be right to tell his wife about us, but he does not
>believe that it would be kind. That works for him,
doesn't work for her. what sort of love is this?
>and I will not criticize him for it,
too bad. i rely on my friends to tell me when i fuck up.
>especially since we both believe that she would
>insist that he not see me,
yeah, that's the rub. pretty self-serving, that "kindness",
isn't it.
>I condider myself poly
i consider you poly because you want to have relationships
with more than one person. i don't have a requirement that
polyamory be open and honest in general (tho i do so for my-
self and my partners), i believe polyamorous people can lie
and cheat and be bastards in relationships just like mono-
gamous people; they just can do it to more than one other
at a time. *half-smiley*
no, that's not a common view in the poly community. they'd
like to keep the term polyamory pure as the white-driven snow.
:-) alas, i've seen too much crap in poly relationships, and
it works better for me to simply define people by what type
of partnerships they envision in their lives.
>It causes me some discomfort at
>times, because I am not considered poly by most of the poly community,
odd. i couldn't care less what the "poly community" thinks
-- doing what you do is unethical in my code of ethics. now,
it's not like i've not done stupid things in my life, and even
unethical ones, and didn't remedy the situation as quickly as
i should have. but i don't think i've ever been blind to the
consequences i was incurring, and to the insiduous damage i
did myself by accepting the role of an accomplice to serious
lies. pretending i was doing somebody a kindness would have
been too much for me to swallow, even in my most self-indulgent
moments, *chortle*.
>IMO There is nothing wrong with your deciding to keep your relationship a
>secret if that is what works for you.
but be pretty damn clear on how you define "works", and try to
be scrupulously honest with yourself. sometimes the path of
least resistance leads directly to hades. what are you doing
to yourself if you support such a big lie? what does that say
about your character? if you were the wife, how would you feel
about such a person? if this was done to you, how would you
react? if a partner of you does this to somebody he allegedly
loves, what does that say about him? what does that say about
his love for you?
>It may not be a popular
>decision to make in the poly community, but dare to be different if
>you want.
daring to be different in this society is honest polyamory,
imagine that. cheating is the common way, every two-bit scam
artist does it. it's less work, no doubt. but i doubt whether
it is ever kind or gives one something to look back on with
pleasure as you get old. i remember being cheated on as a par-
ticularly dark time in my life. and i can't say that when i
was tempted to cheat myself, and came real darn close to doing
so, the memory is terribly bright either. whatever we had is
tainted by the secrecy.
-piranha
------------------------------------------------------------------------
please help fight spam -- http://www.cauce.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Crowley
beard...@world.std.com (bearpaw) writes:
> I'm always a little stumped when someone asks for advice about this
> scenario (usually from the middle). I suppose it's possible to move
> from a cheating situation to a happily and openly poly one with the
> same people, but I have a hard time imagining it.
I would agree, but I'm fortunate enough to have seen it. Quite a turn
of events, which all went far better than I had ever dared hope.
__
\/ o\ pa...@hedonism.demon.co.uk \ /
/\__/ Paul Crowley -+- DATA IS SACRED /~\
Libris Solar
Another possibility might be for the female to inform her lover that she
can no longer in good conscience continue cheating on and encouraging her
lover to cheat on his primary partner.
Sort of an, ouch oriented learning experience. (Sorry, I had no idea that
it would feel like an unbearable burden having a relationship like ours
or how powerful a part of the learning process in an experience like this
it would be.)
Therefore, despite all secrets maintained, the overwhelming urge to make
peace with herself has assumed control of her decision making processes
regarding their relationship. (However, all of this would only be
something I'd recommend to someone who actually believed it and not to
someone looking for an acceptable format with which to initiate a break)
And that (parenthesized text above), despite the possibility it might work
well anyway.
If, then, said female in relationship felt that way she might ask for a
period of 30 days for the revelation to be made known to the primary
lover, seemingly involving his participation in resolving the matter
should it be acceptable to him to approach it in such a way.
Outside of that, I hope the female can find someone to love openly and
without shame or guilt.
That the male should be allowed to take responsibility over revealing any
secrets he holds from his primary partner is a very fair thought and I
might encourage it for males/females (& all others) in similar situations.
Whoa, have to stop. Painting is wearing me out.
libris
Aahz
In article <19970718022...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
DnGrUsWmn <dngr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>We stay in touch every day...sometimes twice a day by phone....and meet
>whenever we can (over 1500 miles apart) . We never run out of things to
>talk about and seem to be hopelessly in love with each other.....We are
>into our 50's / have been married for years and raised our
>families.....now getting close to retirement we cannot face the idea of
>settling with our mates for the rest of our lives....
>
>HELP.....I need some advice......All I have to do is leave...and him the
>same (he says he is ready....and keeps asking when I'm ready)......Anybody
>ever been in this situation???
Haven't been in your situation, but I don't think you've got something
particularly different from situations I've seen before.
First of all, you need to think really hard about whether NRE (New
Relationship Energy aka infatuation) is the source of much of your
feelings about the situation. Even if you've known each other for
several years, the limited contact and pressure caused by secrecy can
cause NRE to live much longer than its natural lifespan.
Also, are you sure this isn't a mid-life crisis?
Given that this *is* alt.poly, you should consider the possibility that
you can have both of your partners.
If you're trying to escape your spouse, make sure this new partner is
someone to run *toward*. You've never lived together; you've never
lived in the same area.
--
--- Aahz (@netcom.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~aahz
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het
"Every flame is sacred, every flame is great." --Orc
deema...@peg.pegasus.oz.au
Dngruswmn (@aol.com) writes:
>Ok Guys and Gals....I'm new here....but I need some help along the
>same lines.....
>
>I met a wonderful guy thru the internet/ became friends/ and
>eventually met and became lovers.....WE are both married......
>
>We stay in touch every day...sometimes twice a day by phone....and
>meet whenever we can (over 1500 miles apart) . We never run out of
>things to talk about and seem to be hopelessly in love with each
>other.....We are into our 50's / have been married for years and
raised
>our families.....now getting close to retirement we cannot face the
idea
>of settling with our mates for the rest of our lives....
>
>HELP.....I need some advice......All I have to do is leave...and him the
>same (he says he is ready....and keeps asking when I'm ready)
>......Anybody ever been in this situation???
Not me. Most of my situations have been poly, where leaving the other
partners was not what we were after in extending our love.
I'd say that what you are considering is a change of partners, rather
than multiple relationships. Advice? Sit down and figure out if you
really don't want to be with your current partner, and why. Is it the
limitiation? Have you grown distant or want something other or
different? If so, and if you can't, or don't want to try to establish this
new thing with your current parter, you should probably leave,
whether or not you move in with your new enamorata. Your new love
may *not* be the answer, but you may find the answer more easily if
you are on your own creating your own reality, your physical and
social environment.
On that front, what do you really know about your new love? I think
there is a huge potential for love built around sharing ideas and
words, but be aware that the reality of a relationship is more than
this. How well suited are you, really? Advice is to go slowly.
On the other hand, have you really contemplated polyamory? Leaving
one partner for another, or having an affair, are not the only options.
Consider retaining your current relationship, and talking with your
current partner about expanding your 'family' to include others, either
as partners you have individually outside your relationship, or as
partners you have within a mutual relationship. Seeing as you are
contemplating leaving your current partners now, there is really
nothing to lose if you still love them and think the poly option is at all
something you might like.
Dhanu River
deema...@peg.pegasus.oz.au
Aahz wrote:
>Terri Schurter <schu...@mars.superlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>I condider myself poly because of the honesty of my relationship
with my
>>husband, but I realize I am involved with someone who considers
>
>Welcome to alt.poly!
Yes, welcome.
>I won't say that I am the poly community ;-), but I think I do speak
for
>the majority in saying that you *are* poly because your husband is
>agreeable to your being poly.
I'd agree with this.
>However, your lover is not IMO poly, and
>neither is your *relationship* with him.
Ummm, I'm not sure about this. I think the relationship *is* poly,
insofar as Terri, her husband and lover are concerned, assuming
*they* all know each other and are accepting of the relationship.
I have to say, I'm of mixed minds on whether it is OK to have a
partner who is not entirely honest with *their* partner. In one sense, I
know it doesn't work, and you, Terri, need to be clear about this. Your
lover's other will *certainly* feel betrayed by both your lover, and by
you, rightly so. So, you've set up a situation where a resolution which
includes you all is *nearly* impossible. The most likely thing is that
either his partner will leave him, or he will leave you, as soon as she
finds out what is really happening. There's likely to be a great deal of
antipathy and distress all round in any likely case.
I suppose I'm ambivalent because love goes where it goes, and I think
some people get into relationships built around insecurity and
ultimatums, and there really is not many ways to 'tell the truth' that
are not destructive of the relationship. While I think that's an awful
situation, and no-one should be in that, I don't think it is necessarily
true that *you* are at fault if your lover is someone who is willing to be
honest, with you and your husband, but confused and unwilling to
lose the relationship with his partner. I do think it's problematic,
however, and not certainly not 'fine' for you to be in such a situation.
It is messy and likely to bring pain, whether or not joy lies on the
other side of the pain. ...And the distribution of pain is unequal, and
revelation of the truth is likely to fall in the most shattering way on
the person who was had their right to choose in the situation taken
away through imposed ignorance of truth.
There is nothing kind about lying. Deciept, designed to get a result
from someone based on creating an incorrect appraisal of a situation
by them through misinforming them (overtly or passively), will
inevitably lead to a sense of both loss/jealousy, and a sense of
betrayal and a big hole in self-esteem where one's faith in one's ability
to accurately assess a situation important to one's emotions has been
destroyed. This is hardly kind. Lying in such a case is really a way of
denying the right of another to make informed decisions about their
life. One has to consider what this says about your partner, and how
they may treat *you*.
Dhanu River
deema...@peg.pegasus.oz.au
Piranha wrote:
>Aahz <aa...@netcom.com> wrote:
>[tell the other woman]
>>I think that's unethical. One should not knowingly pass on a secret
to
>>the person being kept out of the loop.
>
> why in the world would that be unethical, if i didn't promise
> to keep the secret in the first place? in fact it could be
> quite the ethical thing to do, dependent on the situation.
I agree with Piranha. I'll also say, I generally will never agree to keep
secrets. I will say that I will *respect the fact that the person is
speaking in confidence, and let my concern for them dictate my
actions*. I've found that in some cases, a third party may be caused
inordinant and unnecessary pain, because they are excluded from an
understanding of all the facts in the situation. This is particularly true
in poly relationships.
I'm thinking here of one particular case where someone was pregnant,
and asked for that to be kept confidential, particularly from their
partner's other. A whole series of choices were made on the basis of
that fact, which were inexplicable to the third party, in a very complex
and messy situation.
I did, in that case, keep my word and maintain confidentiality. I try
not to beat myself up about it, but from that situation I decided I
really did *not* want to promise to keep secrets. I will, however, agree
to keep information to myself unless, in my opinion, someone else is
likely to be badly hurt.
I also do some counselling, in which *strict* confidentiality is
important. Sometimes people need to share secrets.
> i did that once. i found out i was being lied to, i confron-
> ted the person, zie insisted i was wrong, so i went and had a
> talk with the other person. best thing the both of us could
> have done, because it turned out we were being played against
> each other.
I think it is also different if *you* are being lied to. Where a person is
generally honest, eg, honest with you, with your partners, and so on,
but not with (one of) *their* primary partners, I think the issue is less
one of someone being decietful, than of someone not having resolved
how they feel about someone who has established an ultimatum, or
'ultimatum-like' emotional atmosphere, or who refuses to talk about
something made fairly obvious.
>>At the most, the ultimatum
>>should be, "Either you tell your wife or we break up."
>
> in this case, that seems the more ethical thing to do, since
> she is personally part of the problem, and she _knew_ about
> the situation when she got involved. if she hadn't known,
> that would change the equation for me.
I have a hard time with ultimatums. I might say "I can't live in a
situation that is likely to explode messily and painfully" if that's my
truth, but that's *not* the same as an ultimatum. It is a personal,
unilateral choice.
Here, I'll say that I am currently in a (very) long-distance relationship
with someone who has not told their partner, mainly because their
partner freaked when told of their SS-relationship (which is ongoing)
with someone else (who we are both in relationship with). I said that I
won't lie, and I don't like it, and regret what it may do to my
relationship with their partner, but won't precipitate things, either. My
friend asked that I not tell zir partner, which I don't like, because they
want to sort out the issues around poly and bisexuality first, before
adding fuel to the fire.
The SS-relationship is in the open but my partner's other refuses to
talk about it, and my love simply says, "I'm going to spend time
with...", and it doesn't get talked about. ...Often pointedly.
...and zir partner helps buy presents for me, knows me as openly bi
and poly, and has made several oblique remarks about me, in the
sense of knowing of my relationship with zir partner, but being
unwilling to talk. In many ways, I feel very confident that my beloved
would *rather* thrash things out but wants to do so over time, at
times when there is not also other major pressures on either of them.
Our connection occurred when I went to the States, and we're not
likely to see each other in the flesh in the foreseeable future. As lovers
of a common third person, with a limited time together, and a strong
connection, we decided we would be lovers rather than wait for
resolutions that would mean we might never get together, particularly
as we were both going to spend time together with our common-love.
Life frequently seems to be a bit more complicated than simple moral
dictums can accommodate. I suppose following the moral dictums
would simplify them, but life is hungry. I hate lying, but understand
that my someone-I-love *is* trying to communicate with a partner of
over 20 years that they wish to reamin connected with, and that
partner is just unwilling to take in much information very quickly.
Knowing them both, I think my love *will* keep pushing, and zir other
will eventually have to decide whether ze wants to be with them *as
they are* or not. I know my love is not willing to live in a closeted way,
or put aside zir actual feelings, loves, and drives.
NB. I think this *is* different than the situation of a lover who is
actively lying to a partner, and thinks this is OK.
Dhanu
Ray Dillinger
deema...@peg.pegasus.oz.au wrote:
>
> Piranha wrote:
>
> >Aahz <aa...@netcom.com> wrote:
> >[tell the other woman]
> >>I think that's unethical. One should not knowingly pass on a secret
> to
> >>the person being kept out of the loop.
> >
> > why in the world would that be unethical, if i didn't promise
> > to keep the secret in the first place? in fact it could be
> > quite the ethical thing to do, dependent on the situation.
>
> I agree with Piranha. I'll also say, I generally will never agree to keep
> secrets. I will say that I will *respect the fact that the person is
> speaking in confidence, and let my concern for them dictate my
> actions*. I've found that in some cases, a third party may be caused
> inordinant and unnecessary pain, because they are excluded from an
> understanding of all the facts in the situation. This is particularly true
> in poly relationships.
Oy! He speaks the truth. It is generally against my policy and
expectation to keep secrets about relationships from OSO's of your
partner. Let's face it, they're involved. They're making decisions
every day based on what they beleive about their partner, and if you
don't let them have the truth then you're letting them make those
decisions on the basis of lies. I think of that as grossly
disrespectful to them -- therefore I would *never* promise to keep
a relationship secret from a partner's other partners, nor ask that
a relationship I was in be kept secret from one of my partners.
There are some secrets I keep for free. If it's personal and
doesn't involve anyone else, you ask for it to be a secret and
it's a secret.
There are some secrets I keep for a fee -- but that's business
and not personal, and for people who've earned the right to
have secrets kept -- by doing original intellectual work,
usually.
There are some (a very few) secrets I keep which were revealed
to me as part of counseling or confessions -- which I'm not
really comfortable with, but in those matters I have an oath
to discharge. But my advice to such people is invariably to
come clean with the truth -- it hurts them less than when
they don't.
And there are some secrets I just won't *ever* promise to keep
-- if something puts someone at risk, or affects how they'd
choose to live their lives, and my own actions are part of it,
then I simply don't feel that I have the right to withhold
the information from them. Also, it's a practical matter --
as I said above, keeping such a secret, in the long run,
usually hurts more than telling it.
> Life frequently seems to be a bit more complicated than simple moral
> dictums can accommodate. I suppose following the moral dictums
> would simplify them, but life is hungry.
That's the Truth again. Living by a code can be one of the hardest
things you've ever done. Sometimes you literally don't have the
emotional strength to do what you know ought to be done. But
really, all that high-sounding morality just boils down to a set
of rules for minimizing pain in your life. Telling the truth is
the Right Thing To Do, not because it's a high principle espoused
by any religion, but because keeping secrets wears away at your
self-respect and (in most cases) eventually blows up messily and
painfully. At least, that's how *I* see it. You may think your
mileage varies, but you'd probably have trouble convincing me of
it.
And let's not even get into lies -- that's a whole nother topic....
Bear
---
A good memory is needed after one has lied.
-- Pierre Corneille
Sam Robinson
> Really, I know better than to reserve 'polyamory' for the snow-white
> relationships. But that doesn't mean that I think every form of
> non-monogamy equates to polyamory. Note, once again, that I also think
> that there's a distinction between a 'poly person' and a 'poly
> relationship'.
Interesting distiction!
Particularly relavent to those of us who are more isolated from suitable
like-minded individuals and must instead cope with the traditional
relationship, while still being, at heart, polyamorous... It's difficult,
not getting what you want out of relationships... Having to decide nearly
every day whether your heart or your mind is right: Whether doing the "right
thing" is really right for you, or just easier...
I am simultaneously elated and depressed... I have found others like me.
MolE
Aahz
In article <5r97ln$fjf$1...@gte1.gte.net>, Sam Robinson <mo...@gte.net> wrote:
>
>Bottom line: I feel that you must resolve to either accept the situation as
>it is or not. He cannot (will not?) make this decision for you. Rash
>decisions and actions almost always cause more harm than good. Honsety,
>patience, and self-integrity seem to work well when dealing with people.
>
>...Hope that made sense...
Mostly. Welcome to alt.poly!
Sam Robinson
> you won't like hearing this about your lover, but this sounds
> like typical self-serving rationalization to me.
You're probably right, and he'll probably be made to pay dearly for it if
the truth ever comes out, don't you think?
> i didn't think so when i found out i was being lied to and
> cheated on. i would have been ok if i had been told, quite
> probably; even after finding out i still tried to work things
> out amicably. but the trust that was broken was simply irre-
> parable. it was such a betrayal, of what we had promised to
> each other (the part about "honour", not the part about "for-
> saking all others"; i cared much more about honour), of what
> i believed we were to each other, of what i believed he saw
> in me. it was shattering to find out.
case in point...
BTW: I've been in a very (eerily?) similar situation (I was the one lied to
- just wanted to clarify that). I thought everything was fine one day (we
even had an "open" relationship, as I called it in those days), and the next
day realized I'd been lied to so much I didn't know what to believe... Now I
understand why she did it. I don't think it was right, but I understand why.
Our trust was so shattered that we couldn't even remain friends, which is
difficult at times in a tight social group.
> ticularly dark time in my life. and i can't say that when i
> was tempted to cheat myself, and came real darn close to doing
> so, the memory is terribly bright either. whatever we had is
> tainted by the secrecy.
I see you can understand why as well... People are so... Imperfect...
Isn't it grand?
MolE
Danette Michaels
Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
> deema...@peg.pegasus.oz.au wrote:
> >
> > Piranha wrote:
> >
> > >Aahz <aa...@netcom.com> wrote:
> > >[tell the other woman]
> > >>I think that's unethical. One should not knowingly pass on a secret
> > to
> > >>the person being kept out of the loop.
> > >
> > > why in the world would that be unethical, if i didn't promise
> > > to keep the secret in the first place? in fact it could be
> > > quite the ethical thing to do, dependent on the situation.
> >
> > I agree with Piranha. I'll also say, I generally will never agree to keep
> > secrets. I will say that I will *respect the fact that the person is
> > speaking in confidence, and let my concern for them dictate my
> > actions*. I've found that in some cases, a third party may be caused
> > inordinant and unnecessary pain, because they are excluded from an
> > understanding of all the facts in the situation. This is particularly true
> > in poly relationships.
>
> expectation to keep secrets about relationships from OSO's of your
> partner. Let's face it, they're involved. They're making decisions
> every day based on what they beleive about their partner, and if you
> don't let them have the truth then you're letting them make those
> decisions on the basis of lies. I think of that as grossly
> disrespectful to them -- therefore I would *never* promise to keep
> a relationship secret from a partner's other partners, nor ask that
> a relationship I was in be kept secret from one of my partners.
>
Yes, I think about this all the time. But, (and I know this sounds
heartless) I
don't really care about the "wife" except that I know she is what stands
b/w
me having what I want out of the relationship. Though she is included in
a
large network of "old hippie friends" in our community, I have never had
anything
more than a very superficial conversation with her. And, I feel like it
is my
lover's responsibility, not mine, to tell her. He is the one cheating.
My main question is this: How can I start to talk to him about the idea
of a
poly-relationship without the lies? I already know I'm in one--by
default. And
I do think that if he would just tell her that he won't abandon her but
that
there's someone else he's close to...that would be the best scenario.
Maybe then
I could try to be friendly to her and get to know her.
THe way it stands now, he doesn't even like me to mention anything about
changing
the way things are...which is he comes to my house when my kids aren't
there. PERIOD.
nothing else. He's very loving and affectionate and I know he is happy
to be with me. But if I even say, "I wish we could go somewhere
together," he'll say something to the
effect of "let's not go there...." He just refuses to talk about it. If
I push it,
I'll get emotional. So, I keep my mouth shut. I seethe inside when he
leaves, but
I keep my mouth shut.
>
> > Life frequently seems to be a bit more complicated than simple moral
> > dictums can accommodate. I suppose following the moral dictums
> > would simplify them, but life is hungry.
>
> That's the Truth again. Living by a code can be one of the hardest
> things you've ever done. Sometimes you literally don't have the
> emotional strength to do what you know ought to be done. But
> really, all that high-sounding morality just boils down to a set
> of rules for minimizing pain in your life. Telling the truth is
> the Right Thing To Do, not because it's a high principle espoused
> by any religion, but because keeping secrets wears away at your
> self-respect and (in most cases) eventually blows up messily and
> painfully. At least, that's how *I* see it. You may think your
> mileage varies, but you'd probably have trouble convincing me of
> it.
>
I know what you say about self-respect is true. However, (thanks to
Herman
Hesse's Damian) I feel like there is some glory and bliss in embracing
the forbidden. Does anyone know what I mean?
Danette
Stef Jones
Danette Michaels <dan...@ukans.edu> wrote:
>Yes, I think about this all the time. But, (and I know this sounds
>heartless) I don't really care about the "wife" except that I know she is
>what stands b/w me having what I want out of the relationship. Though she
>is included in a large network of "old hippie friends" in our community, I
>have never had anything more than a very superficial conversation with her.
>And, I feel like it is my lover's responsibility, not mine, to tell her. He
>is the one cheating.
I don't have to know or care about another person in a cheating
relationships to not want to get involved with the cheating. I don't want
to get involved because when it all blows up, I will get hurt, too. Also,
ethically speaking, I don't like to abet someone else's deception, even
though "technically" it's not "my responsibility."
>My main question is this: How can I start to talk to him about the idea of
>a poly-relationship without the lies? I already know I'm in one--by
>default. And I do think that if he would just tell her that he won't
>abandon her but that there's someone else he's close to...that would be the
>best scenario. Maybe then I could try to be friendly to her and get to know
>her.
If you don't want to be friendly with her and get to know her now, what
will make you want to later, when he reveals you're the one who helped him
cheat on her, and she's furious with both of you?
You have your head in the sand. If he tells her, she is likely to be be
angry as hell. It's not just going to be "Oh, you're close to someone else,
and you lied about it for a while, but now you want to be honest. OK dear.
*pat pat* That's fine."
When she finds out, whether it's because he tells her or she finds out some
other way, it is going to affect him and it is going to affect you. A lot.
If you don't give a shit about her now, you for damn sure won't feel
friendly toward her when she's fighting you for your partner.
>THe way it stands now, he doesn't even like me to mention anything about
>changing the way things are...which is he comes to my house when my kids
>aren't there. PERIOD. nothing else. He's very loving and affectionate and I
>know he is happy to be with me. But if I even say, "I wish we could go
>somewhere together," he'll say something to the effect of "let's not go
>there...." He just refuses to talk about it. If I push it, I'll get
>emotional. So, I keep my mouth shut. I seethe inside when he leaves, but I
>keep my mouth shut.
Why do you *want* this relationship? You're nothing more than the dog in
the corner, called over when he wants to play, and otherwise ignored. You
don't get any kind of say in how things happen. Because he wants to cheat
on his wife, he gets to dictate the terms of your relationship. It sounds
like an incredibly lousy deal to me. I would be out of there even if there
weren't any cheating going on.
>I know what you say about self-respect is true. However, (thanks to Herman
>Hesse's Damian) I feel like there is some glory and bliss in embracing the
>forbidden. Does anyone know what I mean?
There are lots of ways to bring glory and bliss into your life. There are
lots of ways to embrace the forbidden. They don't have to involve debasing
yourself to someone. They don't have to involve hurting other people or
trampling on your personal ethics.
If you are going to explore the forbidden, you need imagination,
creativity, and sense. I don't see much of those in evidence in this
situation so far. Well, except for the creative rationalizations.
--
Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
--------------------------------------------------------
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when he is called upon
to act in accordance with the dictates of reason. -- Oscar Wilde
piranha
[reformatted.]
In article <33DB59...@ukans.edu>,
Danette Michaels <dan...@ukans.edu> wrote:
>
>Yes, I think about this all the time. But, (and I know this sounds
>heartless) I don't really care about the "wife" except that I know she
>is what stands b/w me having what I want out of the relationship. Though
>she is included in a large network of "old hippie friends" in our
>community, I have never had anything more than a very superficial
>conversation with her. And, I feel like it is my lover's responsibility,
>not mine, to tell her. He is the one cheating.
i wouldn't call this particularly heartless, and in my code
of ethics it really makes little difference whether i know
and care for the third person in this case. i don't need to
care for somebody to look at myself in the mirror, put my-
self into zir shoes and ask myself "would you want this done
to yourself? no? then stop doing it to somebody else."
that's my code of ethics -- don't do stuff to others that i
would hate having done to myself, unless explicitly asked to
do so and it doesn't violate other ethical considerations.
it needn't be yours. only you can decide whether you want
to be the sort of person who aids others in deception and
the breaking of trust. i can see situations in which i'd
do such a thing; it all depends. but that's what you have
to decide; how you want to live, what you want for yourself,
what sort of a partner you want, what sort of a relation-
ship with your partner and with your community.
>My main question is this: How can I start to talk to him about the idea
>of a poly-relationship without the lies? I already know I'm in one--by
>default. And I do think that if he would just tell her that he won't
>abandon her but that there's someone else he's close to...that would
>be the best scenario. Maybe then I could try to be friendly to her and
>get to know her.
let me disabuse you of spinning fantasies about that -- yes,
it is possible that she'll forgive and forget soon; we have
somebody in this group who has reportedly done exactly that
when confronted with a partner's dishonest affair. but it's
a great deal more likely that she will hate your guts for
your part in the deceit. if you're not friendly with her
now, hoping for her to embrace y'all together is expecting
her to be pretty darn saint-like, and if she _was_ that sort
of person, i imagine your partner would have already told her.
that is, if he is honest with you about her anyway. i've had
the misfortune to encounter a few people in my life who've
been brilliant liars about their partners, to keep anyone else
at a safe distance. something to think about -- what makes
me wonder about him is this:
>THe way it stands now, he doesn't even like me to mention anything about
>changing the way things are...which is he comes to my house when my kids
>aren't there. PERIOD. nothing else.
he sure is taking the easiest possible way out, without show-
ing any consideration for your feelings. heck, if i was with
somebody who's not otherwise involved, and zie behaved in this
manner, i am not sure i'd bother with zir as a partner -- i
_need_ to have communication when things get difficult, i need
to talk thru them, not have them pushed away and ignored.
>He's very loving and affectionate and I know he is happy to be with me.
sure. you're there when he wants it, and you let yourself be
put back into the closet when he's otherwise engaged. who'd
want to give that up?
>But if I even say, "I wish we could go somewhere together," he'll say
>something to the effect of "let's not go there...." He just refuses to
>talk about it. If I push it, I'll get emotional. So, I keep my mouth
>shut. I seethe inside when he leaves, but I keep my mouth shut.
well, so regardless of the cheating and whether you have any
responsibilities for the wife, you're rather unhappy with the
way this relationship is progressing. imagine if there was
no wife, and he was behaving this way about, say, work. how
would you go about it?
i understand getting emotional and how that can be hampering
one. when i get that way, i write instead of talk. i write
down everything i feel about a situation, and then i give
the letter to the person concerned, with a heads-up that i
need to talk about this, not right now, but soon. this works
for me; have you ever tried that? it needs some care in com-
posing the letter because you will likely not be there when
the person reads it, and i usually don't want to accuse when
i write like that, i want to open a new channel of communica-
tion. i use a lot of what people term "weasel words", which
i don't really see as weaseling at all -- i say "i feel hurt"
instead of "you hurt me"; stuff like that.
>I know what you say about self-respect is true. However, (thanks to
>Herman Hesse's Damian) I feel like there is some glory and bliss in
>embracing the forbidden. Does anyone know what I mean?
dunno. depends on the situation. defying a fascist regime
would certainly bring some glory and bliss, but going behind
a trusting wife's back isn't quite the same to me. i get no
pleasure out of this sort of thing at all; it makes me feel
soiled instead. an eye for an eye is acceptable, doing some
gouging of somebody who's never done me any harm isn't -- i
can't find bliss in that; anything i might feel temporarily
will be spoiled by my darned conscience in retrospect.
Aahz
In article <33D6EC...@sonic.net>, Ray Dillinger <be...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>Oy! He speaks the truth. It is generally against my policy and
>expectation to keep secrets about relationships from OSO's of your
>partner. Let's face it, they're involved. They're making decisions
>every day based on what they beleive about their partner, and if you
>don't let them have the truth then you're letting them make those
>decisions on the basis of lies. I think of that as grossly
>disrespectful to them -- therefore I would *never* promise to keep
>a relationship secret from a partner's other partners, nor ask that
>a relationship I was in be kept secret from one of my partners.
I'd almost completely agree with you -- if this were a poly
relationship. But in a cheating relationship, the lover has no
relationship with the other spouse, so I don't see where there's any
responsibility to zir. Remember, again, that we're having this
discussion in the context of the lover specifically going to other
spouse for the purpose of spilling the beans.
dan...@ukans.edu
In article <stefEDz...@netcom.com>,
st...@cat-and-dragon.com wrote:
>
> Danette Michaels <dan...@ukans.edu> wrote:
>
> >Yes, I think about this all the time. But, (and I know this sounds
> >heartless) I don't really care about the "wife" except that I know she is
> >what stands b/w me having what I want out of the relationship. Though she
> >is included in a large network of "old hippie friends" in our community, I
> >have never had anything more than a very superficial conversation with her.
> >And, I feel like it is my lover's responsibility, not mine, to tell her. He
> >is the one cheating.
>
> relationships to not want to get involved with the cheating. I don't want
> to get involved because when it all blows up, I will get hurt, too. Also,
> ethically speaking, I don't like to abet someone else's deception, even
> though "technically" it's not "my responsibility."
>
> >a poly-relationship without the lies? I already know I'm in one--by
> >default. And I do think that if he would just tell her that he won't
> >abandon her but that there's someone else he's close to...that would be the
> >best scenario. Maybe then I could try to be friendly to her and get to know
> >her.
>
> will make you want to later, when he reveals you're the one who helped him
> cheat on her, and she's furious with both of you?
>
> You have your head in the sand. If he tells her, she is likely to be be
> angry as hell. It's not just going to be "Oh, you're close to someone else,
> and you lied about it for a while, but now you want to be honest. OK dear.
> *pat pat* That's fine."
>
You're right, I'm dreaming.
> When she finds out, whether it's because he tells her or she finds out some
> other way, it is going to affect him and it is going to affect you. A lot.
> If you don't give a shit about her now, you for damn sure won't feel
> friendly toward her when she's fighting you for your partner.
>
> >THe way it stands now, he doesn't even like me to mention anything about
> >changing the way things are...which is he comes to my house when my kids
> >aren't there. PERIOD. nothing else. He's very loving and affectionate and I
> >know he is happy to be with me. But if I even say, "I wish we could go
> >somewhere together," he'll say something to the effect of "let's not go
> >there...." He just refuses to talk about it. If I push it, I'll get
> >emotional. So, I keep my mouth shut. I seethe inside when he leaves, but I
> >keep my mouth shut.
>
> Why do you *want* this relationship? You're nothing more than the dog in
> the corner, called over when he wants to play, and otherwise ignored. You
> don't get any kind of say in how things happen. Because he wants to cheat
> on his wife, he gets to dictate the terms of your relationship. It sounds
> like an incredibly lousy deal to me. I would be out of there even if there
> weren't any cheating going on.
I guess it's because I am attached to the affection. My head, my heart
and my body are all speaking separate languages.
> If you are going to explore the forbidden, you need imagination,
> creativity, and sense. I don't see much of those in evidence in this
> situation so far. Well, except for the creative rationalizations.
I know. The truth hurts and I try to hide from it.
Thanks for your 2 cents!--Danette
> --
> Stef ** rational/scientific/philosophical/mystical/magical/kitty **
> ** st...@cat-and-dragon.com <*> http://www.bayarea.net/~stef **
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when he is called upon
> to act in accordance with the dictates of reason. -- Oscar Wilde
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
Ray Dillinger
Danette Michaels wrote:
(erf! Reformatted your writing, dear. The mail system
mangles it when the lines are too long.)
> Ray Dillinger wrote:
> > It is generally against my policy and
> > expectation to keep secrets about relationships from OSO's of your
> > partner. Let's face it, they're involved. They're making decisions
> > every day based on what they beleive about their partner, and if you
> > don't let them have the truth then you're letting them make those
> > decisions on the basis of lies.
> Yes, I think about this all the time. But, (and I know this sounds
> heartless) I don't really care about the "wife" except that I know
> she is what stands b/w me having what I want out of the relationship.
Actually, I think it's more the husband who falls into that role.
Look, you're in a "cheating" relationship with this man -- and he
seems to be okay with that. That has more to do with his own
character than his wife's. He's using her as a reason to not
give you the things you want out of the relationship -- but I see
no assurance that he'd act any different if she were out of the
picture -- would he give you the things you want in the
relationship, or would he just find another reason?
And I hate to point this out, but if "cheating" is okay with this
guy, he won't just cheat *with* you -- he'll cheat *on* you.
Whatever rules you set up for any relationship you ever have
with him, (poly *or* monogamous) you can't ever assume he
won't cheat and break them.
And I don't think it's necessary to respect someone else to care
whether you hurt an innocent human being -- for that, it's only
necessary to respect yourself.
> And, I feel like it is my lover's responsibility, not mine,
> to tell her. He is the one cheating.
Yes, it *is* his responsibility, both to her and to you. And
he shows no signs of any willingness to fulfill it. And you're
upset about that and he shows no signs of any consideration for
or willingness to discuss your distress. Stop me if I'm wrong...
> My main question is this: How can I start to talk to him
> about the idea of a poly-relationship without the lies?
Voice works. Writing a letter works. But you can talk to
him all you want; if he doesn't talk back, it's a waste of
time and energy. The short answer is, if he doesn't want
to talk about it, you can't have a meaningful conversation
about it with him.
The long answer: One good technique for drawing people out
about something is to repeat back what they say as a paraphrase
and then make a guess as to why they said it. So it may go,
"honey, I want to talk about the dishonesty of this situation."
"Let's not go there..."
"You don't want to talk about it? You don't think it'll help?"
and so on...
> I already know I'm in one--by default.
Um, I think you're in a cheating relationship *with* the lies,
by default. You may not have actually done any of the lying
yourself, but you've been allowing him to lie on your behalf.
> And I do think that if he would just tell her that he won't
> abandon her but that there's someone else he's close to...
> that would be the best scenario.
That's a tough thing. You're right, it might be the best
scenario for all three of you. But I wouldn't count on a
continued friendship with either of them afterwards, in your
position.
> Maybe then I could try to be friendly to her and get to
> know her.
It's likely to be very difficult. Remember, she's going
to be feeling very much betrayed and hurt and angry when
she finds out about this. Depending on whether she believes
her husband about never abandoning her (and right after
finding out about a lie of this magnitude, which is not
going to help her believe anything he says), she's likely
also to be scared and hateful.
And as they go through a process of reestablishing trust,
*if* they don't split up, he will almost definitely be
unable to see you without causing the whole thing to blow
sky-high.
> THe way it stands now, he doesn't even like me to mention
> anything about changing the way things are...which is he
> comes to my house when my kids aren't there. PERIOD.
> nothing else.
This sounds less and less like anything his wife has to do
with. I mean, if that's it, the depth and breadth of what
you're missing is far more than can be accounted for by a
fear of his wife finding out. It sounds to me like he just
plain doesn't want a serious relationship.
It also sounds like the sort of neatly-compartmentalized
relationship that he might have five or six of around town
with nobody knowing about.... All the lovers would know
about his wife, but nobody but him would know about them.
I'm not saying for sure that that *is* what's going on,
but there *are* slime who make good money teaching folk
how to set up this kind of situation.... Apparently it's
a learnable technique. See alt.seduction.fast for the
sordid details.
> > Telling the truth is
> > the Right Thing To Do, not because it's a high principle espoused
> > by any religion, but because keeping secrets wears away at your
> > self-respect and (in most cases) eventually blows up messily and
> > painfully.
> I know what you say about self-respect is true. However,
> (thanks to Herman Hesse's Damian) I feel like there is some
> glory and bliss in embracing the forbidden. Does anyone know
> what I mean?
When things that are glorious and blissful have been forbidden
for no good reason, yes. An illicit affair is neither, and the
reason for which illicit affairs are forbidden is human trust --
hardly an insignificant reason IMO. Furthermore, if what you
were doing were in truth glorious and blissful, you wouldn't be
finding it eating away at your self-respect.
Bear
PS. Sorry to be so hard on you, but I'm firmly convinced
that you're allowing yourself to be taken advantage
of. Getting out of the situation of being taken
advantage of (whether or not that means ceasing to
be this guy's lover) is going to hurt, but not as
much as staying in it.
---
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that.
-- J. S. Mill
Libris Solar
On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> Danette Michaels wrote:
> (erf! Reformatted your writing, dear. The mail system
> mangles it when the lines are too long.)
>
>
> > Ray Dillinger wrote:
(Much text removed)
> > I feel like there is some
> > glory and bliss in embracing the forbidden. Does anyone know
> > what I mean?
...She says as yet another Vampiress arrives at the party wiping away
droplets of blood from her lips.
libris
Thida Cornes
dan...@ukans.edu wrote:
>st...@cat-and-dragon.com wrote:
[snip]
> > Why do you *want* this relationship? You're nothing more than the dog in
> > the corner, called over when he wants to play, and otherwise ignored. You
> > don't get any kind of say in how things happen. Because he wants to cheat
> > on his wife, he gets to dictate the terms of your relationship. It sounds
> > like an incredibly lousy deal to me. I would be out of there even if there
> > weren't any cheating going on.
>
> I guess it's because I am attached to the affection. My head, my heart
> and my body are all speaking separate languages.
>
> > If you are going to explore the forbidden, you need imagination,
> > creativity, and sense. I don't see much of those in evidence in this
> > situation so far. Well, except for the creative rationalizations.
>
> I know. The truth hurts and I try to hide from it.
>
> Thanks for your 2 cents!--Danette
>
A lot of folks have responded with good rational advice. I'm just going
to add one thing that's purely emotional, but it slammed me in the gut
when I read your post:
If he can lie so boldly to his wife and rationalise it so nicely, then
what kinds of lies is he telling to you in the name of being "kind"?
His wife is supposedly his nearest and dearest to his heart, and he
wants to 'protect' her by lying. There are probably other truths he
wishes to protect you from.
--
To reply by email, please remove the spam from my email address.
Thida Cornes Email: th...@mandalay.org
HBBC http://www.mandalay.org/
"I'm not going crazy. I'm going sane in an insane world!" - The Tick
MRPLYM
You are in a interesting situation.......to bad he does not feel
comfortable enough with himself, or with her reaction to tell her. Maybe
if you tell him what you wrote in your post if you have not yet, and then
try to get convince him to tell her. it would make life easier for
everyone involved.
Siobhan NiLoughlin
aa...@netcom.com (Aahz) wrote:
>In article <timstarrE...@netcom.com>,
>Tim Starr <tims...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <aahzEDH...@netcom.com>, Aahz <aa...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>>In article <timstarrE...@netcom.com>,
>>>Tim Starr <tims...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>"Other Woman" could give him an ultimatum: "Either you tell your wife
>>>>about us, or I will."
>>>
>>>I think that's unethical.
>>
>>It's unethical to lie to people, to secretly break promises of romantic
>>exclusivity.
>It's also unethical to break a promise. Given that Other Woman has no
>relationship with the wife, and that it would be damaging to her lover
>if she did so unilaterally, I think that the greater lack of ethics
>would be to tell the wife.
I tend to use very situational ethics in cases like these. I have
friends of whom I know that one partner has cheated and I have never
said a word. I have never seen the point in causing pain and breaking
up a perfectly functional relationship over an isolated incident.
I also have aquaintances who are in supposedly monogamous
relationships and who are picking strangers up in bars on a regular
basis. I tend to treat such situations very differently.
These are extremes, and not really relevent to the original
situation, but hey, I have a couple of American pennies left over from
my last visit to the US and I felt like throwing them around.
Siobhan
Siobhan
...Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail...
construction zone {http://www.interlog.com/~siobhan}