Bush Administration To Kill Tookie Williams
Ryd
clemency request by Tookie Williams, a children's book author and Nobel
Prize nominee.
Bush and Cheney are behind this miscarriage of justice.
They both must be impeached. Now!
While there is still time.
Rydaa
Bert Hyman
news:1134421173....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> George W. Bush's agent, Gov. Schwarzenegger of California has
> denied a clemency request by Tookie Williams, a children's book
> author and Nobel Prize nominee.
You seem to have left out "convicted murderer of four people"; how'd
that happen?
Should all members of the California Supreme Court be impeached too?
How about the members of the Ninth U. S. Circuit Court of Appeals?
Are they all in on it? Are they all Bush's agents?
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN | be...@iphouse.com
john fernbach
Schwarznegger is their agent.
The GOP is not completely monolithic, and Arnold's brand of
Republicanism is at odds with Bush's brand in many different ways.
Like abortion, to begin with. And global warming, also, and several
other issues as well. Some Californians I've talked to argue that
Arnold could even be a threat to Bush's presidency, though I think
that's stretching it.
So Ryd - aren't you just making up stuff here, in order to attack Bush?
And to the extent that you are, how are you any better than Bush was,
when he made up "facts" about Saddam's weapons to justify the Iraq War?
If you want to do something good for the world, try checking your
statements for accuracy the next time before you issue them in print.
Writing things that make no sense, and that don't hold up to scrutiny,
is no favor to the Democrats, or "the left," (whatever that is), or the
USA or the planet.
J
"Ryd" <ryd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134421173....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Uuuhhhh -- yes, well, there is that little matter of four murdered people.
Allanondarkadept
Tookie Williams is a good man. He might have been a bad man at some
point but he has left that so far behind him he was nearly given a
Nobel Peace Prize. Alfred Noble to was responsible for many deaths, but
repentantly left a large sum of money from the invention and sale of
dynamite to increase the peace. We dishonor everything that Mr. Nobel
stood for in his life if we are to put this man to death. I personally
believe he should be released and be allowed a quick visit with his
family to offer them the choice to move with before being deported form
the United States. I believe that there are alot of rich people (Snoop
to name one) that would be more than happy to financially set him up
wherever he might want to move to.It's amazing how how some leaders
think that they know a man by reading his rap-sheet. Tookie Williams
grew up on the streets and started the Crips. He is a hero of anti-big
government and the over bearing control that they weigh down upon us,
their neighbors on a daily basis that the laws and policies they
support and enforce are for the good of the people. All the while the
government ignores the poverty stricken ghettos for the purpose of
driving a wedge between the rich and the poor thus elavating
theirselves out of their own selfish desires. Tookie Williams doesn't
represent all that is wrong with this country, Bush does. Green Day
wrote a song aply asking when September will end, referring to
nine-eleven. His push for Tookie to die is just another tool of
distraction to keep our mind off of a larger injustice. But that
doesn't make it any less wrong.
john fernbach
matter
of whether Schwarznegger is really the "agent" of Bush and Cheney.
Why not blame Bush and Cheney for the misdeeds of every Republican
dogcatcher, every Republican sheriff, every Republican mayor in the
country?
This is absurd; this is stupid.
There are plenty of very good reasons to want Bush and Cheney out of
office,
and the GOP no longer in control of Congress --
For exampe: the failed war in Iraq, the torture scandal, the lies over
Saddam's WMD, the Bush
White House's attack on the environment, the Valerie Plame case,
the Bush administration's huge debts, the incompetent federal response
to Hurricane Katrina, the latest
influence-peddling scandals involving Tom Delay and Jack Abramoff.
But the execution of Tookie Williams is not something that Bush and
Cheney
control.
And Arnold is NOT Bush's "agent" -- not if Arnold has anything to
say about it, anyway. Ryd needs to be more careful with the truth.
Allanondarkadept
wonder if this will get the reaction that they were looking for or will
this turn into the new civl war for a just cause? Who knows? I know
that everything the government has stood for in all these years is
ignorance, a belief in a flowery world where there isn't a poverty
problem in the ghettos but a drug problem, those bitches in Washington
D.C. got it coming one day, not from me but they've had some shit
coming for a long time.
J.C.
"john fernbach" <fernba...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134423333.6...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ryd did what he intended. Get a reaction from a sucker.
--
My fervent hope is that the American people will
adopt a government in which there are two four
year term limits for everybody, no contributions of
any kind to anyone that the contributor can NOT
vote for, no retirement plan for politicians and no
taxpayer money to anyone that has not voted in
3 of the past 4 elections and no taxpayer funded
grants to anyone, only loans that must be paid
back at the private sector rate of interest.
Criticism is easy and takes no intelligence at all.
Offerring a valid, different solution takes brains.
J. C.
inkyb...@yahoo.com
decision, blame the Terminator. I mean, what did you expect from a
"Terminator?"
Personally, I am against capital punishment for practical reasons which
are far too obvious to list. But if the people vote for it I believe
it is the governor's job to uphold the law and the people's wishes.
The guy caused his own death by starting a violent gang and killing
people. I do not believe murderers or even rapists deserve any second
chances.
IB
Allanon dark adept
decision, blame the Terminator. I mean, what did you expect from a
"Terminator?"
inkybla...@yahoo.com wrote:
>Personally, I am against capital punishment for practical reasons which
>are far too obvious to list. But if the people vote for it I believe
>it is the governor's job to uphold the law and the people's wishes.
>The guy caused his own death by starting a violent gang and killing
>people. I do not believe murderers or even rapists deserve any second
>chances.
It depends on your point of view. I personally also believe that
rapists should not be given second chances. However Tookie Williams
started a war against priveleged rich bitches in nice houses that would
come to his neighborhood looking for drugs and people from other blocks
that were trying to sell the same products in what was essentially his
store. On the subject of rich bitches it would upset you if someone was
trying to make whatever you do for a living illegal or in his case keep
it that way. And on the subjct of those selling in his terrritory the
government is the same way. Back in the 1920's the government couldn't
compete with the production of marijuana in Mexico and the quality of
production in Canada, and Southeast Asia, so they simply made it
illegal and slapped ant-marijauana propaganda posters everywhere.
Tookie Williams is a good man and I would really like to see the
collection of evidence in this case so that I can make a informed
decision on whether I believe the poor man should even be in jail. It
seems to me that the government loves to get rid of those who try and
effect change outside of their control. In short, I believe it is
probable that he was framed.
Ryd
- And to the extent that you are, how are you any better than
- Bush was, when he made up "facts" about Saddam's weapons
- to justify the Iraq War?
Bush LIED! Kids DIED!
- Writing things that make no sense, and that don't hold up to
- scrutiny, is no favor to the Democrats, or "the left,"...
How could anyone possibly tell?
Rydaa
Chris Morton
>
>George W. Bush's agent, Gov. Schwarzenegger of California has denied a
>clemency request by Tookie Williams, a children's book author and Nobel
>Prize nominee.
While the Bush Administration deserves praise in a lot of areas, they can't
really take credit for this. It's a local California matter. Schwarzenneger
alone deserves credit for this decision.
When the 9th Circuit thinks you need to die, you REALLY need to die! :)
--
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women should have to fistfight with 210lb.
rapists.
Bjorn Frei
>I despise the Bush administration, but I see no indication that Arnold
> Schwarznegger is their agent.
It's election year in California. Girly-Man Arnold bent over for the Pugs.
mordacp...@hotmail.com
Tookie should have voted Republican and given to Bush's campaign fund.
It kept the Cuban terrorist Orlando Bosch from being executed and he
was pardoned by Bush Sr.
Pizen
> Uuuhhhh -- yes, well, there is that little matter of four murdered
> people.
Shux - Ryd doesn't care about four murdered people. It's much better
to bash Bush. Remember - Bush lied! Kids died!
J.C.
"Chris Morton" <cmo...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:dnkrm...@drn.newsguy.com...
> In article <1134421173....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Ryd
> says...
>>
>>George W. Bush's agent, Gov. Schwarzenegger of California has denied a
>>clemency request by Tookie Williams, a children's book author and Nobel
>>Prize nominee.
>
> While the Bush Administration deserves praise in a lot of areas, they
> can't
> really take credit for this. It's a local California matter.
> Schwarzenneger
> alone deserves credit for this decision.
>
> When the 9th Circuit thinks you need to die, you REALLY need to die! :)
It would seem that the crip crapped out, wouldn't it?
Joseph Welch
> George W. Bush's agent, Gov. Schwarzenegger of California has denied a
> clemency request by Tookie Williams, a children's book author and Nobel
> Prize nominee.
And a murderer.
> Bush and Cheney are behind this miscarriage of justice.
Hardly. It was the people of the state of California who reinstated the
death penalty there. Williams' guilt is not in question. He committed a
capital crime - he shall suffer the appropriate punishment.
> They both must be impeached. Now!
Yes, but not for anything to do with Tookie Williams.
--
JW
***************
"You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have
you left no sense of decency?"
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/welch-mccarthy.html
Saggy
Maybe not by you.... but it seems to me anyone examining the case with
an impartial eye should have serious reservations.....
Here's one example.... Williams had a shotgun..... a shell casing was
recovered at the crime scene.... analysis of the shell markings were
first reported as inconclusive vis a vis coming from Williams' gun...
and then the results were amended to say that the shell was from
Williams gun to the exclusion of all others.... OK, we would expect to
see photographs of the shell, shells test fired, etc., it is apparently
standard procedure.... yet wasn't done in this case... there are no
photographs .. no detailed analysis..... just the word of the
analyst.... OK... the evidence still exists.... it should be
reexamined.
Also, there is not one untainted witness with direct testimony against
Williams.... and by untainted I mean who didn't have very serious
pending raps at the time of the trial....
This is a terrible case....and the sentence should have been stayed at
least.
Joseph Welch
"Saggy" <namma...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1134434540....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>Williams' guilt is not in question.
>
> Maybe not by you....
Nor by the juries who convicted him, and the multiple courts who heard his
appeals over the last 27 years.
> but it seems to me anyone examining the case with an impartial eye should
> have serious reservations.....
There are multiple cases, multiple murders. All have been reviewed and
re-reviewed by "impartial eyes".
> Here's one example.... Williams had a shotgun..... a shell casing was
> recovered at the crime scene....
There was more than one crime scene; more than one crime.
> This is a terrible case....and the sentence should have been stayed at
> least.
The man is a murderer who helped found an organization for whom murder was a
rite of initiation. I don't care how many kiddie books or PSA's the guy
did - if there's a poster child for capital punishment - Williams is it.
RIP, "Tookie", and may the families whose lives you destroyed finally find
some peace.
Gandalf Grey
Saggy
Williams....big surprise...but you're wrong when you write "if there's
a poster child for capital punishment - Williams is it." I'm for
capital punishment.... but if they're going to execute people based on
this miserable evidence...it will be stopped.....you can't execute
people because you don't like their color, politics.. etc., it has to
be based on a specific crime and the evidence has to be solid... not
2nd hand 'jailhouse confessions'.. which played a part in Williams
conviction.
Captain Compassion
Tookie the sensitive soul.
http://tinypic.com/ih76o5.jpg
--
"The president and I cannot prevent certain politicians from losing
their memory, or their backbone, but we're not going to sit by and
let them rewrite history." -- Dick Cheney 11/16/2005
"War is God's way of teaching Americans geography" -- Ambrose Bierce
"America is a vast conspiracy to make you happy." -- John Updike
"Long term commitment in relationships is only necessary because it takes
so damn long to raise children. Marriage may well be some kind of trick
to keep the males around beyond sexual satiation." -- Captain Compassion
"Progress is the increasing control of the environment by life.
--Will Durant
Joseph R. Darancette
dar...@NOSPAMverizon.net
Joseph Welch
> OK you don't want to discuss the nature of the evidence againt
> Williams....big surprise
Why would I? It's been discussed over and over and over again. 25 years of
appeals for crying out loud - and the best fleet of both paid and pro bono
anti-death penalty lawyers money (and good intentions) could buy. The guy's
case has been reviewed, re-reviewed, re-re-reviewed and
re-re-re-re-reviewed. The man did the crimes that he was convicted of.
Period. He's guily as hell.
California has a death penalty and it's going to be carried out - as it
should be.
>...but you're wrong when you write "if there's a poster child for capital
>punishment - Williams is it."
No, I'm actually NOT wrong about that.
> I'm for capital punishment....
And I'm against it. Chew on that.
> you can't execute people because you don't like their color, politics..
> etc.
That isn't why Williams is being executed. He's being executed because he
violently murdered four people - three of whom were members of the same
family.
> it has to be based on a specific crime and the evidence has to be solid...
In his case, it is based on four specific crimes - all with solid evidence.
Many, many, many courts have reviewed it all, and come to the same
conclusion.
Why is that so hard for you to accept?
Saggy
I looked at the evidence.
Even a cursory look at the case against Williams reveals that it is not
solid. Why can't you spend 15 minutes reading about it?
There is also a 'free Mumia' movement.... I looked at the evidence....
it is solid.... Mumia is guilty without question. ....
Williams was convicted on suspect evidence. There have, according to a
radio report, recently been 14 capital cases reversed, mainly on DNA
evidence. So, the fact that he is scheduled for execution, and appeals
have failed, is not, unfortunately, conclusive. Why can't you accept
that he might be not guilty, at least to the extent of examining the
case against?
This guy is going to turn out to be a poster boy for the 'end the death
penalty' movement. I'll guarantee it.
Joseph Welch
>>>>>Why is that so hard for you to accept?
>
> I looked at the evidence.
And yet you continue to disagree with the small army of lawyers, judges and
jurists who also looked at the evidence and find no room for reasonable
doubt.
I hope you'll pardon me (excuse the pun) if I take their word over yours.
> Even a cursory look at the case against Williams reveals that it is not
> solid.
Were that the case, the small army of lawyers, judges and jurists would have
come to the same conclusion that you have.
And yet they have not.
> Why can't you spend 15 minutes reading about it?
I have. I agree with the small army of lawyers, judges and jurists who
looked at the evidence and find no room for reasonable doubt.
> There is also a 'free Mumia' movement....
Yeah. That's bullshit too.
> Mumia is guilty without question. ....
As is Williams.
Here's hoping that his death brings the families of his victims some peace.
Personally I'd rather see him rot in jail for the rest of his life, but it
wasn't my family that was victimized by him.
> This guy is going to turn out to be a poster boy for the 'end the death
> penalty' movement. I'll guarantee it.
I won't hold my breath. There are plenty of folks who have been freed while
awaiting execution after new evidence (such as DNA testing that didn't exist
at the time of their trials) has come forward. They do just fine.
Rick Hohensee
He admitted to founding the Crips. Not good.
--
Rick (Richard Allen) Hohensee Party of one
candidate, President of the United States of America
humb...@smart.net Maryland, USA
Ground troops out of Iraq Put the CIA under INS
Semi-legalize drugs Prosecute Bush Tighten the borders
Isolate Israel Tax churches halve military aquisitions
platform http://www.smart.net/~humbubba/platform
Hohensee-Feingold Amendment http://www.smart.net/~humbubba
hopeUslide
Tookie will be terminated. California has spoken, dig him up and take
him to a taxidermist would be my advice.
--
hopeUslide
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Saggy
And yet you are sure of Williams guilt without seeing the case against.
There apears to be a disconnect in your brain as you are incapable of
drawing even an insecapable conclusion.
tnbr...@yahoo.com
Ryd wrote:
> George W. Bush's agent, Gov. Schwarzenegger of California has denied a
> clemency request by Tookie Williams, a children's book author and Nobel
> Prize nominee.
>
> Bush and Cheney are behind this miscarriage of justice.
>
> They both must be impeached. Now!
>
> While there is still time.
>
Rydaa great news I saved a shitload of money on my car insurance.Wait
that wasn't it oh yeah...
Tookie just died man the way the media is covering it you'd think it
was the Pope.
But there is good news I was talking to old joe a close personal friend
of mine and he believes Mr. Williams got a raw deal.
So when Tookie gets to hell he assured me he will have Alfred
personally present him with the Nobel Peace prize.
You've seen Little Nickey and know what that means.
Hope that little good news cheered you up.
traveler
Joseph Welch wrote:
> ...I agree with the small army of lawyers, judges and jurists who
> looked at the evidence and find no room for reasonable doubt.
> ...There are plenty of folks who have been freed while
> awaiting execution after new evidence (such as DNA testing that didn't exist
> at the time of their trials) has come forward.
You mean to say the "small army of lawyers, judges, and jurists" were
wrong?
B1ackwater
>George W. Bush's agent, Gov. Schwarzenegger of California has denied a
>clemency request by Tookie Williams, a children's book author and Nobel
>Prize nominee.
>
>Bush and Cheney are behind this miscarriage of justice.
>
>They both must be impeached. Now!
>
>While there is still time.
Ah, I was waiting for that - the "Tookie killed to cover-up
dealings with Bush CrimeCult" propaganda ...
Good old American 'liberals', they didn't disappoint.
Joseph Welch
>>>> There are plenty of folks who have been freed while awaiting execution
>>>> after new evidence (such as DNA testing that didn't exist at the time
>>>> of their trials) has come forward.
>
> And yet you are sure of Williams guilt without seeing the case against.
I've seen as much as is available to the public through the internet.
> There apears to be a disconnect in your brain as you are incapable of
> drawing even an insecapable conclusion.
Again - if it were an "inescapable conclusion" then it would have been
arrived at by the small army of lawyers, judges, and jurists who heard the
case and all of the appeals.
I don't think you really know what that word "inescapable" means.
Joseph Welch
"traveler" <Vall...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1134474463.3...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
No, in those cases the small army of lawyers, judges and jurists were
*right* - that's how the convicted wound up being released.
alanm...@yahoo.com
john fernbach wrote:
> I despise the Bush administration, but I see no indication that Arnold
> Schwarznegger is their agent.
>
> Republicanism is at odds with Bush's brand in many different ways.
> Like abortion, to begin with. And global warming, also, and several
> other issues as well. Some Californians I've talked to argue that
> Arnold could even be a threat to Bush's presidency, though I think
> that's stretching it.
>
> So Ryd - aren't you just making up stuff here, in order to attack Bush?
>
>
I think Ryd is a Republican troll trying to make Democrats look
stupid. All of his posts
consist of over the top ridiculous charges.- A. McIntire
Chris Morton
>> There is also a 'free Mumia' movement....
>
>Yeah. That's bullshit too.
It's got more going for it than the Tookie Show did.
Ryd
tnbr...@yahoo.com wrote:
- Rydaa great news I saved a shitload of money on my car insurance.Wait
that wasn't it oh yeah...
>
- Tookie just died man the way the media is covering it you'd think it
- was the Pope.
Ha, ha, you big sacriligious joke.
Bush killed Tookie. Bush SHOULD HAVE PARDONED Tookie Williams instead!
Bush pardons billionaires and cocaine dealers with ease. He just
doesn't care about poor black gangbangers.
Rydaa
Ryd
* look stupid.
Impossible! They need no assistance.
* All of his posts consist of over the top ridiculous charges.
And the Democrats do what, again?
Ryd
Joseph Welch wrote:
* I don't think you really know what that word "inescapable" means.
Tookie Williams does. He didn't wanna die this morning and was going
to bust out, but he was inescapable.
Impeach BUSH!
NOW!
Ryda
Michael Ejercito
Ryd wrote:
> George W. Bush's agent, Gov. Schwarzenegger of California has denied a
> clemency request by Tookie Williams, a children's book author and Nobel
> Prize nominee.
>
> Bush and Cheney are behind this miscarriage of justice.
>
death, right?
Michael
Pizen
Consider this. He lost appeal after appeal, review after review, in
one of this country's more liberal states (although admittedly the
state criminal courts have become more conservative over time) wherein
the evidence and other material was evaluated over a 24-year period.
Setting aside the issue whether you believe the death penalty is
appropriate in any event, surely the Williams case has received about
as much scrutiny as is possible.
Saggy
the persons who participated in the robberies and was granted complete
immunity from prosecution. There was no testimony linking Willliams to
the crime that didn't come from career type criminals. One of the
other perpetrators also fingered Williams but wasn't granted immunitiy
and didn't testify in Williams trial. It doesn't seem like the kind of
evidence you want to use to ice someone.
smutt butt
Ryd Wrote:
> George W. Bush's agent, Gov. Schwarzenegger of California has denied a
> clemency request by Tookie Williams, a children's book author and
> Nobel
> Prize nominee.
>
> Bush and Cheney are behind this miscarriage of justice.
>
>
> While there is still time.
>
hitler was a peace prize nominee also.
--
smutt butt
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Michael Ejercito
Ryd wrote:
> tnbr...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> - Rydaa great news I saved a shitload of money on my car insurance.Wait
> that wasn't it oh yeah...
> >
> - Tookie just died man the way the media is covering it you'd think it
> - was the Pope.
>
>
> Ha, ha, you big sacriligious joke.
>
> Bush killed Tookie. Bush SHOULD HAVE PARDONED Tookie Williams instead!
>
Michael
allanond...@gmail.com
>Consider this. He lost appeal after appeal, review after review, in
>one of this country's more liberal states (although admittedly the
>state criminal courts have become more conservative over time) wherein
>the evidence and other material was evaluated over a 24-year period.
>Setting aside the issue whether you believe the death penalty is
>appropriate in any event, surely the Williams case has received about
>as much scrutiny as is possible
Take it from someone who has been in and out of jail (for rather stupid
laws I might add) at least four times. Having had a chance to talk to a
wide variety of criminals let me just tell you what an appeal really is
and how it's fucked off. First and most importantly an appeal is always
to the same district of court unless you're triyng to take the case
higher and higher for instance the supreme court is the top. Now unlike
jurors who are forbidden to speak of the case out of court, judges
might very well belong to the same country club, you feel me? And
there's nothing in the law that states that they can not talk at
lengths about their cases... to other judges. So many times the judge
has already made the decision before (s)he reaches the courtroom.
Secondly,almost no effort is made in gathering new evidence for an
appeal. Especially as the defense often exhausts any obvious sources in
the first trial. An appeal is just like it sounds, an appeal to the
judge's decision and/or verdict and really can't be considered as a
re-trial. Thirdly, there is a very good chance that Tookie Williams was
framed. Anyone in history that has ever stirred up dust has ended up
eating it. Back thousands of years through history this has been one of
the historical reoccurences that brought us the death of Julius Ceasar,
Jesus Christ, JFK, Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King Jr., John
Lennon, Bruce Lee, Sam Kinnison, Princess Diana, William Wallace, etc.
just to name a few. We will never know for sure. We can be sure however
that they killed a man that denied until he died that he committed
those murders and died believing he was going to heaven which in a way
were his last words. But more than that in his death he gave true light
to the fact that there is no forgiveness in the system, in light of all
that he has done for humanity. And I'm not talking about him starting
the crips as he grew from his past to a man that wrote anti-gang
children's books. How many gang-bangers over the years would have seen
an act of clemency and redemption given on his part as an inspiration
to get out of their gangs and engage in civil society? And how many now
(especially in the crips) will hate the police and the system even more
having denied him and left him to his gruesome fate? Even when a
criminal changes his life to do good in his community his past will
haunt him for the rest of his days...unforgiving and unrelenting of
consequences. There is nothing more I can say except that it must be
nice to have grown up in a nice neighborhood where violence, gangs,
man-made drugs and prostitution weren't present. It would be nice if
the rich people (alot are republicans) would take they ass to the other
side of the tracks for at least three weeks out of the year as their
minds would be so profoundly changed that you would literally notice
the way this government worked overnight. However this is not the case
and it is doubtful they would ever have the guts anyway. Tookie
Williams was raised on the streets that our government has created
through it's continually biased contribution of funds to where they
need it most and the war on drugs. There is alot of sympathy to be had
for Tookie Williams even if he did kill those people Yes it must be
nice to sit from upon a pedestal and proclaim thyself perfect. Judge
not, Lest ye be judged.
Ryd
** Bush and Cheney are behind this miscarriage of justice.
*It is not as if Tookie actually DID anything to deserve to be
* put to death, right?
Tookie wrote books for children. He counseled kids to avoid gangs. He
won a Nobel Prize. He lifted. And he had no credit card debt to speak
of.
HE WAS REDEEMED!
Bush, using the Terminator lackey of his in California, murdered
Tookie Williams, a man of peace.
Bush and Cheney must be IMPEACHED for his crimes.
Ryda
Michael Ejercito
Ryd wrote:
> ** Bush and Cheney are behind this miscarriage of justice.
>
>
> *It is not as if Tookie actually DID anything to deserve to be
> * put to death, right?
>
>
> Tookie wrote books for children. He counseled kids to avoid gangs. He
> won a Nobel Prize. He lifted. And he had no credit card debt to speak
> of.
>
> HE WAS REDEEMED!
>
> Bush, using the Terminator lackey of his in California, murdered
> Tookie Williams, a man of peace.
George Jackson.
Michael
Captain Compassion
>
>** Bush and Cheney are behind this miscarriage of justice.
>
>
>*It is not as if Tookie actually DID anything to deserve to be
>* put to death, right?
>
>
>Tookie wrote books for children. He counseled kids to avoid gangs. He
>won a Nobel Prize. He lifted. And he had no credit card debt to speak
>of.
>
He won a Nobel Prize?
>HE WAS REDEEMED!
>
>Bush, using the Terminator lackey of his in California, murdered
>Tookie Williams, a man of peace.
>
>Bush and Cheney must be IMPEACHED for his crimes.
>
>Ryda
--
Chris Morton
>
>
>** Bush and Cheney are behind this miscarriage of justice.
Unfortunately not.
They've done lots of other good things though.
>Tookie wrote books for children. He counseled kids to avoid gangs. He
>won a Nobel Prize. He lifted. And he had no credit card debt to speak
>of.
He shot four people to death.
>HE WAS REDEEMED!
He was TERMINATED!
>Bush, using the Terminator lackey of his in California, murdered
>Tookie Williams, a man of peace.
If he was a "man of peace", Ted Bundy must have been a pacifistic feminist.
>Bush and Cheney must be IMPEACHED for his crimes.
<snicker!>
omare...@aol.com
Saggy wrote:
> >>>>Why is that so hard for you to accept?
>
> I looked at the evidence.
>
> Even a cursory look at the case against Williams reveals that it is not
> solid.
Sure it is. But it must kill you that your hero was executed for
murdering four people. Anyway, continue sobbing hysterically, idiot.
Pizen
> Pizen wrote:
>> Consider this. He lost appeal after appeal, review after review,
>> in
>> one of this country's more liberal states (although admittedly the
>> state criminal courts have become more conservative over time)
>> wherein the evidence and other material was evaluated over a
>> 24-year
>> period. Setting aside the issue whether you believe the death
>> penalty is appropriate in any event, surely the Williams case has
>> received about as much scrutiny as is possible
>
>But more than that in his death he gave true light to the fact
> that there is no forgiveness in the system, in light of all that he
> has done for humanity.
A couple of children's books counters the brutal and savage murder of
four people? And the system does not forgive - it attempts to exact
justice. Big difference.
So the devil made him do it. That worked for Flip Wilson - it
apparently didn't work for Mr. Williams, and I doubt that's of any
solace to the four dead victims and their families. Poor bastard
laying there on the floor with the back of his head blown off - didn't
he know that Tookie grew up in a tough neighborhood? Crips hating
cops isn't anything new, and I don't think the justice system should
concern itself very much what the Crips think about much of anything.
And your hyperbole that by me pointing out that Mr. Williams' case
went through everything the justice system could offer for over 24
years and yet come up snake-eyes has somhow put me on a pedestal or
made me perfect is ludicrous. But you probably already knew that,
didn't you?
Saggy
It's a pity, but I'm not up for a game of dumb and dumber at present.
Besides, I've got a gut feeling you'd win.
john fernbach
that's foolish.
And I'm not sure how I feel about Tookie's execution.
I think I'm against it because
of the long time he had to change his act, and because of the good work
he
apparently did in fighting gangs while on Death Row. On the other
hand, I'm not sure the
death penalty for people who launch gang wars is such a bad idea.
I wonder, though - Will Bush and Cheney look any better 100 years from
now than Tookie does now?
Tookie may have killed 4 people himself, which is bad; he founded the
Crips, which to my
view was awful, terrible, grossly immoral.
But Bush launched a war, arguably a war that went against international
law (such as it is), and a war that is now based on what Bush says was
"bad intelligence." He took out a horrible, bloody, disgusting tyrant,
true -- Saddam Hussein's regime was a nightmare. But in the process,
Bush helped to kill 30,000 Iraqis and 2,000 Americans, and started
fighting that left much of Iraq in shambles.
Compare for a moment the lawlessness and bloodshed that Bush's war
helped to create in Iraq, versus
the lawlessness and bloodshed that Tookie Williams and the Crips and
the Bloods have brought to American cities.
Now Bush says he's sorry about the "bad intelligence" that went into
his invasion decision, just as Tookie said in recent years that he was
sorry to have founded the Crips.
And yes, some real good may eventually come out of Bush's war, just as
real good may come out of the books that Tookie wrote later in life.
Very probably, both men have thought of themselves in recent years as
standing for good - even for peace and justice for all.
But in terms of killing and being responsible for large-scale killing,
how different are they, really?
But I want to make it a little more personal than that.
Forget about Bush and Tookie for a moment,
and think about their followers, their admirers -- including many of
us.
How many people in this talk group who defend Tookie's memories
actually kind of think that
gangs and gansters are "cool," so that they're perpetuating the kind of
cultural view that helps the Crips to recruit new members and peddle
their drugs and commit their murders?
And how many defenders of Bush in this news group are not really
concerned about Saddam and his tyranny, even though that's what they
say?
How many defenders of the Iraq invasion in here are young men who have
been influenced by TV and the movies and electronic fantasy games, with
their endless, endless glorification of war and warriers, to think that
for the US to invade other countries is "cool" -- regardless of the
supposed excuses the president puts forward for the fighting?
How many of us on the left and the right think of "heroism" mostly in
terms of being efficient and brave in inflicting violence on other
people?
Regardless of whether the violence is done in the context of the
gangsta culture, or in the context of "patriotic" war, or in the
context of "people's" revolution, or in the context of some magical
fantasy universe where you're fighting demons and dragons?
How many of us are a lot like Bush and Tookie and Arnold "the
Terminator" Schwarznegger, in being charmed by the idea of killing?
allanond...@gmail.com
>A couple of children's books counters the brutal and savage murder of
>four people? And the system does not forgive - it attempts to exact
>And I'm not talking about him starting the
>apparently didn't work for Mr. Williams, and I doubt that's of any
>solace to the four dead victims and their families. Poor bastard
>laying there on the floor with the back of his head blown off - didn't
>he know that Tookie grew up in a tough neighborhood? Crips hating
>cops isn't anything new, and I don't think the justice system should
>concern itself very much what the Crips think about much of anything.
>And your hyperbole that by me pointing out that Mr. Williams' case
>went through everything the justice system could offer for over 24
>years and yet come up snake-eyes has somhow put me on a pedestal or
>made me perfect is ludicrous. But you probably already knew that,
>didn't you?
$#@! I
write. You weaved through the most important and relevant parts of my
posting and only mentioned the parts (that seemed by your posting) to
be
personally insulting to yourself. I said nothing about you and only
replied
to the fact that the %@#*&*#$ government doesn't care about justice
they
are happy as long as main-stream reporters don't slam them for doing
their
job wrong. And Isaid nothing about "you at all," the government has
declared
war on impoverishedAmericans. If you can't see this then the lack of
sum
of your life's experiencesin this matter and of this matter is little.
Don't put
words in my mouth. And visit your neighborhood ghetto some time if one
exists anywhere near you so that you can see for yourself what a
corrupt
Judicial system has reduced those poor people to. I was referring to
the
government about the whole perfection thing.
allanond...@gmail.com
poor part of my city though have a lot of experience with the kind of
oppression, ruthlessness, focus and disdain visited upon the very
people I grew up with (which I might add are non-violent people) under
the judiciary system and by the local police department. So to an
extent I personally believe that gangs were meant to draw attention to
the neighborhoods and the corrupt system of laws and bookkeeping in
America that say that once you commit a crime we will make sure you
never get a well paying job again. I do not believe that they expected
to start a war with American government but they did. Personally, given
the choice between slinging dope for a sizeable income and flipping
burgers at two or three different jobs for just enough money on payday
to be broke, well, for me it's common sense. I would sling drugs. They
give the people no choice. And I have never and will never believe that
Bush is a good president. He is one who cries war on drugs and that if
you buy them you support terrorism, yet fights hard to keep them
illegal so that people almost have to go out of country to get the
stuff. He still fighting a battle against terrorism that he can't win.
When you kill a terrorist's father all you do is create a gap in that
childs life that pushes him to gain respect from other male role models
and many of them are terrorists. And he's carrying on this war in a
country where the wife of the deceased is likely to push them into a
life of violence against those that killed his father. I truly believe
this is kin to a modern crusade from our point of orgins, to them it is
a Jihad. A holy war declaration against all that is christian,
especially those that would invade their land. I say that the National
Army is now big enough and several elections have been held, so let
them fight it amoungst themselves as they might one day stop fighting
eachother. Now about us, hell, they still sing stories to the children,
the preists do, of the Crusades hundreds of years ago when the first
cry of Jihad rang through a bustling city and about how they came to
arms and eventually pushed the Europeans out of their cities and their
land. They sing new songs now and how long will they sing them? I
detest violence and believe the Arab Nations will once again push us
from their lands. We are the worst terrorists of all time I will say as
well. The firebombing we did in Germany, the nucleur attacks on
Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the extinction of many races of Native
Americans that will never walk the earth having been butchered by the
millions and poisoned with biological warfare, the list goes on. Isn't
our government at the very least hypocritcal?
allanond...@gmail.com
No, not the pope. Just a formerly walking advertisement that the man
truly can and does keep you down. But he left an anti-government legacy
in his youth that may last forever.
allanond...@gmail.com
>doesn't care about poor black gangbangers
allanond...@gmail.com
Perhaps he wasn't killed to cover up anything but I will tell you that
Bush is the worst president we've had in over fourty years. Everytime a
republican gets in office we get so screwed up that it takes a man of
Bill Clinton's genius to pull us out. I don't know what is so wrong
with the working class of America that we keep bringing these *ssholes
into office. I know that if Reverand Al Sharpton makes the democratic
ticket in this upcoming election and actually beats all the replublican
and racist votes that we will see more productive change in this
country in one year that we have seen since Clinton and I actually
believe he could do better for this country. And yes, I am a liberal
and believe that we don't have enough freedoms in this country. And
some laws are downright unconstitutional. Say I am convicted of a
felony, I may never own, possess or buy another gun again in my life.
And many people are forced to commit felonies in order to support their
families having to live in poor communities, with near zero job
oppertunities, decline of assistance for education, poor schools, etc.
This is a never-ending cycle and a cycle that Tookie Williams was a
victim of. This oppression is legal for it is the very laws that govern
this country that are selfish and oppressive. When you have one option
to provide a life for yourself you either take it or die thinking
about. Tookie Williams was a hero to the kind of people conservitives
will never understand.
allanond...@gmail.com
>Bush and Cheney must be IMPEACHED for his crimes.
>><snicker!>
Bush does deserve more than any body that has ever attained his office
to be impeached. The second he lied about the weapons of mass
destruction they should have dealt him an impeachment. After all, lying
and blaming it on bad intelligence was pretty bad. Not to mention he is
responsible for thousands of our military's dead, personally! What will
he have to say when the death toll in Iraq is greater than 9/11 which
is the root cause of this war? What is Green Day sings? When will
September end?
allanond...@gmail.com
ever been killed before by any one person? Did he take ove the Nobel
Peace Prize organization or something? You must be kidding me and there
is no comparison or excuse for what that man did. Tookie Williams gang
grew out of his control, he never wanted to see it stretch beyond his
neighborhood. He merely wanted to make money the only way a man,
especially a black man could in the area in which he lived. And his
gang was his IRA, a way to insure that his investments would see a
return. As far as the murdered family it is not at all beyond this
country to kill a man for his ability to affect change, no not at all.
I would imagine that they would have found him hard to kill in his own
neighborhood and would have likely brought down the local Crips of the
time on the local law enforcement and rightly so. I don't condone
violence in the least and if he truly did kill those people he deserves
to have died. But we live in a system that is more evil than the
streets. If you mind your own business in the streets and wear nuetral
colors you'll be more than fine, you could be the homey. The police
will hunt you down and trow you to the ground for doing what you will
to your own body with a natural plant. Hitler was a nobel peace
nominee, my @ss!!!
Pizen
The government hasn't declared war on impoverished people - the
government has laid down and bared its backside for them. Half the
country doesn't pay federal income tax; there are more housing and
food and medical programs than you can shake a stick at; and there's
no way you could convince anyone other than some brain-dead socialist
that the government has somehow forced you to drop out of school and
download children you can't afford. There are exceptions for people
who are mentally deficient or are physically challenged and cannot
provide for themselves, but by and large, poverty is a mental disease.
And it's not like I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth either -
I came from a poor family from the wrong side of the tracks. But
unlike your heroes, killing and robbing and slinging dope weren't
options for me, and I didn't whine all day about how I wasn't getting
my fair share. Understand this concept - when you say "government",
you are really saying American citizens. For when you bemoan the fact
that somehow you don't seem to have a dollar in your pockets and you
think it's the government's fault that you don't, you're really saying
that it is the duty of productive American citizens to work and
produce and then give you the fruits of their labors when you've done
nothing to deserve it. I agree with you that there are too few
freedoms for folks, and I also think that some of the legitimate
functions of government are to combat racism in the schools and in the
workplace because it is unreasonable to expect people to perform with
a boot on their necks. We also need to figure out a way to make sure
that working folks have medical insurance of some kind that's
guaranteed. But I don't care how bad you think you have it -
regardless of who you are or where you're from, you can stay in
school; you can become educated; you can further your education or
learn a trade, and odds are likely someone else will pick up the tab
for that. It can be done if you want it to be done, and using the
"the man's keeping me down" excuse only means that you're more likely
to lay around all day watching Jerry Springer than not. And if you
want to lay around all day and watch Jerry Springer, that's fine.
This is America and you have the freedom to do that. Just don't
expect me to support your habit.
allanond...@gmail.com
>government has laid down and bared its backside for them.
because they cannot track it to profit from it is holding them down.
>I came from a poor family from the wrong side of the tracks.
doubt you come from anywhere near as underpriveleged as Tookie
Williams.
>But
>unlike your heroes, killing and robbing and slinging dope weren't
>options for me, and I didn't whine all day about how I wasn't getting
>my fair share
history you can find on the American side of the Revolutionary war in a
school textbook. Second, this is all inspiration for books and poems I
am writing against the way the system is run, I'm working to change
this bullshit, Whining?
>when you say "government",
>you are really saying American citizens
pipe, they take away rights every day, watch the news.
>I agree with you that there are too few
>freedoms for folks
agreement.
>But I don't care how bad you think you have it -
>regardless of who you are or where you're from, you can stay in
>school; you can become educated; you can further your education or
>learn a trade, and odds are likely someone else will pick up the tab
>for that
neighborhood in which Tookie Williams grew up is probably far from your
imagination being able to comprehend. You can get shot while you're
getting shot in most gang neighborhoods. There is too much concern with
survival to worry about education. And the only business that build in
bad neighborhoods are fast food crap jobs. By the way, You have to make
a very sizable amount of money to go to school on your own resources
and having personally applied for school loans and grants I can tell
you that I was not even considered and did extraordinarily well on my
placing tests. Education is a serious problem in this country, I hope
you realize.
>It can be done if you want it to be done, and using the
>"the man's keeping me down" excuse only means that you're more likely
>to lay around all day watching Jerry Springer than not.
know me maaaan!!! And you know nothing of the hood and of the kind of
life that Tookie lived, walk outside your comfort zone before
criticizing my opinions.
allanond...@gmail.com
> dealings with Bush CrimeCult" propaganda ...
Good old American 'liberals', they didn't disappoint.
Prisoners per 100,000 population, 2002:
United States 700
Russia 680
Belarus 550
South Africa 410
Thailand 350
England and Wales 135
China 110
Canada 100
Italy 90
France 80
Japan 50
In 2001, nearly 6.6 million people were on probation, in jail or
prison, or on parole at year end. That number represents 3.1% of all
U.S. adult residents or one in every 32 adults.