End Cuba Embargo

AbelM...@webtv.net

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 4:45:01 AM8/30/03

to

I don't believe in embargoes. I think they are, for the most part,
counterproductive. And this business of regime change, it doesn't help
any either. Look at our government for instance, threatened by Al
Qaeda, we are forced to abandon many of our own freedoms. By
threatening Cuba's government so much, as we tend to do especially when
Republicans are in power, all it does is force them to be more
repressive also. This is not a good situation to be in. And if
repressive governments are supposed to be punished by embargoes and
threats of "regime change", then why aren't we punishing China, the most
repressive government in the world? But instead, China is one of our
largest trading partners and is given "most favored nation" status.
Republican policies are pockmarked with hypocricy.

Abel Malcolm
http://www.democrats.org
_______

Engagement with Cuba? Why not?
By Wayne S. Smith

Friday, August 15, 2003

From The San Francisco Chronicle

The Cold War is over. Cuba is no longer the ally of the Soviet Union
and no longer poses any conceivable threat to the security of the United
States.

It should be noted, moreover, that even in the midst of the Cold War,
the United States had diplomatic and trade relations with the Soviet
Union and with the Eastern European states. American citizens (after
the U.S. Supreme Court ruling of 1967) were free to travel to those
countries. The United States now has diplomatic and trade relations
with other communist states, notably China and Vietnam, and American
citizens travel freely there. Why is this not the case with Cuba?

Certainly it would be in the economic interests of the United States to
trade. American farmers want to sell their products to Cuba -- and
realize that Cuba could buy much more from them if the trade were
two-way, i.e., if the United States were buying agricultural products
from Cuba as well as selling. Cuba also represents an interesting market
for U.S. manufactured goods.

Americans should certainly be able to travel to Cuba. We believe not
only in our right to travel, but that the travel of American citizens
abroad is one of the best means of spreading the message of American
democracy. Why is that not true for Cuba? As Elizardo Sanchez, Cuba's
leading human-rights activist, has often put it: "The more American
citizens on the streets of Cuban cities, the better for the cause of a
more open society. So why do you maintain travel controls?"

An excellent question. Especially because the more American citizens
travel to Cuba, the more hard currency Cuba will have to buy American
products.

But, some will ask, why should we engage with Cuba? It is not a
democracy, after all; on the contrary, its government can be quite
repressive. Yes, all the more reason to engage. The idea is not to
reward Cuba, but to bring about change. The Europeans and Canadians may
trade and travel to Cuba, but that does not have the same effect. For
historical reasons, the United States is key. Since 1898, America has
been the traditional threat to Cuba's independence and sovereignty. The
more the United States threatens to strangle Cuba economically, the more
defensively the Cuban government will react, calling for internal
discipline and ideological unity against the external threat.

The U.S. government could accomplish far more by beginning to reduce
tensions in the following ways:

Negotiate trade agreements: One approach would be to say to the Cubans
that we acknowledge that the Cold War is over and we are prepared to
have a new relationship with them. As a sign of our good faith, we
would remove all restrictions on two-way trade in agricultural goods.

End counterpropaganda: We should also close TV Marti (which is never
seen nor heard anyway and is a total waste of taxpayer money).

Lift travel ban: We also should continue efforts to remove all
restrictions on the travel of American citizens to Cuba. This, however,
should not be done as a condition of engagement; rather, it is something
we should do in any event because it has to do with the rights of U.S.
citizens.

By proposing to the Cubans that we open a dialogue, with a view to
discussing all the various disagreements between us, it is hoped that we
can find ways to ease, if not resolve, most of the disagreements. As
this process moves forward, we would hope to remove more and more of the
sanctions now in place against Cuba. Meanwhile, we would expect to see
gestures of good faith on the Cuban side, such as the release of some of
the 300 political prisoners now held in Cuban prisons.

We would stand to lose nothing from such an approach. Why have we not
tried it -- or something like it? Essentially because of the domestic
political calculation that in order to win Florida, one must maintain a
hard line toward Cuba or risk losing the key swing votes of Cuban
Americans. But if this calculation was ever really hard and fast, it is
no longer. The Cuban-American community has changed, becoming more
moderate and sophisticated in its views of policy toward Cuba. For
example, a recent poll conducted by Hamilton Beattie & Staff (a
Washington strategy firm), indicates that more than 55 percent believe
the embargo has failed and that the United States should be looking for
a new policy. The overwhelming majority also want to continue to send
money to their families on the island and to travel there themselves.
Nor are they opposed to the travel of other Americans.

Change, then, ought now to be politically feasible. If only some
administration had the imagination to break with the past.

URL:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/08/15/ED301668.DTL

Wayne S. Smith is a senior fellow at the Center for International Policy
in Washington and is the former chief of the U.S. Interests Section in
Havana and one of the leading experts on Cuba.

ETERNAL VIGILANCE IS THE PRICE OF LIBERTY

Educate yourself and go to these links:

http://www.buzzflash.com & http://www.moveon.org &
http://www.veteransforpeace.org & http://www.salon.com &
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/LiberalFAQ.htm

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 5:29:59 AM8/30/03

to

Do you believe in dictatorships?

PL

<AbelM...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20002-3F5...@storefull-2178.public.lawson.webtv.net...

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 5:50:18 AM8/30/03

to

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:29:59 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:

>Do you believe in dictatorships?

Do you believe in the right to travel to China?

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 5:52:07 AM8/30/03

to

I agree 1000%! I was fortunate enough to travel legally to Cuba in
January and again in November before the AWOL Bush new draconian
regulations kick in in January 2004.

Cuba is a beautiful country and the people are very kind and love
Americans.

Robert

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:04:54 AM8/30/03

to

"PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:r8_3b.1708$Vz5.39...@hestia.telenet-ops.be...

> Do you believe in dictatorships?
>
> PL
>

\

Why aren't we embargoing China, a much worse offender than Cuba

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:15:40 AM8/30/03

to

I believe in the right of anyone to freely go anywhere he wants to go.
I also believe that that right should be awarded to all at that we should be
willing to contribute to those actions that support the enhancement of that
freedom for all.
I do support not allowing products and services in from countries where the
labor force is abused and where human rights are totally denied.
I don't like footballs stitched by kids and cans made by Cubans that are
undernourished, have no labor rights, have no freedom of speech and have no
freedom of movement.
I don't like to sit in a hotel where the "natives" aren't allowed in. I
never believed in apartheid, not in SA not in Cuba.
I believe we should not support in any way a regime that has abused human
rights for 45 years.

I think it is morally wrong to stay in hotels while the local people are not
allowed in.

Note that the US travel ban is actually not stopping those that want to go
to Cuba from doing so.

The Castro regime is stopping all it's citizens from going anywhere by
requiring (in addition to a passport) and exit and re-entry visa of it's
citizens.

When demanding rights you have to be willing to actively support the rights
of others if not your demands are hypocrite.

So: would you feel happy sipping a mojito while the "natives" are kept out?
Do you feel that the Cuban dictatorship should and how?

I support the point of view of Cuban dissidents that advocate a gradual end
to the trade boycott as Cuba becomes more democratic.
What is wrong with that?

PL

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
news:3f507349.2065166515@news.supernews.com...

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:21:28 AM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
news:3f507349.2065166515@news.supernews.com...

> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:29:59 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> >Do you believe in dictatorships?
>
>
> Do you believe in the right to travel to China?
>

See my other post.

Question:
do you believe in the old ship rule: "women and children first" in
abandoning ship?
That is discrimination in favor of the most vulnerable.
I agree with that.
Do you or are you unwilling to make any concessions on your rights?

PL

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:30:00 AM8/30/03

to

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:15:40 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:

I don't like the idea of Cubans not being allowed in hotel rooms,
although they are in fact allowed in public areas of hotels. If one
choses to boycott Cuba for this reason, that is a rational choice.
But it should not be government policy. I actually have Cuban friends
there. I am not a Cuban, nor do I speak Spanish all that well. I
also communicate with people there regularly. Who benefits from my
not being able to go there? And the idea that you can go to Cuba is
hogwash. There are no scheduled flights and you have the burden of
proving that you didn't spend a dime there. You call that freedom to
travel there?

I answered your question. You only vaguely answered mine. Should
American citizens be prohibited from traveling to China?

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:37:11 AM8/30/03

to

you analogy is ....ahem....a little bit strained

there is no life-or-death emergency

and there is no benefit to anyone as a result of my concession of
rights

Don't you see that the embargo actually gives Fidel Castro political
cover for his government's shortcomings?

Bobito

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 7:23:58 AM8/30/03

to

Americans should be able to travel freely to Cuba when Cubans are able to
travel freely to America

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 7:26:49 AM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f507deb.2067888250@news.supernews.com...

> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:21:28 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> >
> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
> >news:3f507349.2065166515@news.supernews.com...
> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:29:59 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Do you believe in dictatorships?
> >>
> >>
> >> Do you believe in the right to travel to China?
> >>
> >
> >See my other post.
> >
> >Question:
> > do you believe in the old ship rule: "women and children first" in
> >abandoning ship?
> >That is discrimination in favor of the most vulnerable.
> >I agree with that.
> >Do you or are you unwilling to make any concessions on your rights?
> >
> >PL
> >
> >
> you analogy is ....ahem....a little bit strained

OK, a bit extreme in it's wording. BUt the core issue: accepting
restrictions to favor the rights of others (right to life here I admit) is
similar.

>
> there is no life-or-death emergency

14% of Cubans is undernourished.
The Cuban health system is failing.
There is an emergency.

> and there is no benefit to anyone as a result of my concession of
> rights

false. By denying the Cuban elite access to the US markets (which they
desperately want) you are giving the next generation of leadres (Castro
won't budge) an incentive to change instead of giving them a reason to hold
on to the system of Human rights abuses.

> Don't you see that the embargo actually gives Fidel Castro political
> cover for his government's shortcomings?

Most Cubans don't believe that any more by the way.
The trade sanctions (and the EU aid sanctions) provide an incentive for
change.

But on the central issue: do you accept a (very small) limitation of your
rights to support the rights of others.

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 7:29:22 AM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f507b86.2067274937@news.supernews.com...

> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:15:40 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> I don't like the idea of Cubans not being allowed in hotel rooms,
> although they are in fact allowed in public areas of hotels.

Get real.
You won't make it in to the lobby of a place like the Melia Cohiba.
But this is the "petty" part of the Cuban apartheid. The preferential
treatment in medical assistance, transport, ...
It never ends.
You also gloss over the human rights abuses.

> If one
> choses to boycott Cuba for this reason, that is a rational choice.

I would call it an ethical one.

> But it should not be government policy.

again the issue is can solidarty be imposed or should it be voluntary.
Any government system imposes solidarity in one way or another (progressive
tax rates and social security is one widely accepted example).
The extent to which people are willing to accept that varies.

>I actually have Cuban friends
> there. I am not a Cuban, nor do I speak Spanish all that well.

My wife is Cuban. ia m fluent in Spanish.
I am close to the Cuban reality though not Cuban myself.

> I
> also communicate with people there regularly. Who benefits from my
> not being able to go there?

Who benefits from you going there.
If you stay at casas (see my site www.casaparticular.info) and eat at
paladares you can claim some contribution to the income of ordinary people.
If you are at a Melia resort in Varadero Melia, foreign suppliers and the
government benefit in that order. Only the few lucky ones that work there
(often engineers and doctors) benefit.

> And the idea that you can go to Cuba is
> hogwash. There are no scheduled flights and you have the burden of
> proving that you didn't spend a dime there. You call that freedom to
> travel there?

Get real.
Visit any place like the Lonely Planet site and you will see how many US
citizens go via Canada and Mexico.
Very few people have ever had any problems.

>
> I answered your question. You only vaguely answered mine. Should
> American citizens be prohibited from traveling to China?

Nope.
Do you feel you it is unethical to ask of someone not to support dictatorial
regimes?
And by the way:
Do you feel Cuban citizens should be prohibited from travelling ANYWHERE?
Your critcism of a travel ban is very "selective".
Why aren't you saying: listen the USA and Cuba should BOTH drop their travel
restrictions?

Do you feel that the Cuban dictatorship should end and how?
Should we not take it upon us to contribute?

PL

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 10:04:23 AM8/30/03

to

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:29:22 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:

>
><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
>news:3f507b86.2067274937@news.supernews.com...
>> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:15:40 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>>
>> I don't like the idea of Cubans not being allowed in hotel rooms,
>> although they are in fact allowed in public areas of hotels.
>
>Get real.
>You won't make it in to the lobby of a place like the Melia Cohiba.
>But this is the "petty" part of the Cuban apartheid. The preferential
>treatment in medical assistance, transport, ...
>It never ends.
>You also gloss over the human rights abuses.

Get real. You can make it into the lobby of Novotel Miramar which is
every but as good as Meilia Cohiba.

BTW, how many Haitians get to go to Royal Caribbean's Labadee? I
understand the concept of tourist apartheid, but it is not that unique
to Cuba.

>
>> If one
>> choses to boycott Cuba for this reason, that is a rational choice.
>
>I would call it an ethical one.
>

By innuendo it seems that you are calling the decision to travel there
an unethical one. Is that your point?

>> But it should not be government policy.
>
>again the issue is can solidarty be imposed or should it be voluntary.
>Any government system imposes solidarity in one way or another (progressive
>tax rates and social security is one widely accepted example).
>The extent to which people are willing to accept that varies.

Why is there no "imposed solidarity" with respect to China?

>
>>I actually have Cuban friends
>> there. I am not a Cuban, nor do I speak Spanish all that well.
>
>My wife is Cuban. ia m fluent in Spanish.
>I am close to the Cuban reality though not Cuban myself.
>> I
>> also communicate with people there regularly. Who benefits from my
>> not being able to go there?
>
>Who benefits from you going there.

I don't think this question is particularly relevant. Who benefits if
I take a cruise or go to Cancun?

>If you stay at casas (see my site www.casaparticular.info) and eat at
>paladares you can claim some contribution to the income of ordinary people.
>If you are at a Melia resort in Varadero Melia, foreign suppliers and the
>government benefit in that order. Only the few lucky ones that work there
>(often engineers and doctors) benefit.
>
>> And the idea that you can go to Cuba is
>> hogwash. There are no scheduled flights and you have the burden of
>> proving that you didn't spend a dime there. You call that freedom to
>> travel there?
>
>Get real.
>Visit any place like the Lonely Planet site and you will see how many US
>citizens go via Canada and Mexico.
>Very few people have ever had any problems.

So are you saying that you can go on scheduled flights from the US?
Can you use your credit cards issued from US banks? How safe do you
feel with a wad of cash on you while staying in a casa particular?
Do you disclose you've been to Cuba on the Immigration/Customs card?

>
>>
>> I answered your question. You only vaguely answered mine. Should
>> American citizens be prohibited from traveling to China?
>
>Nope.
>Do you feel you it is unethical to ask of someone not to support dictatorial
>regimes?

It is not unethical. But the policy is ineffective and
counterproductive to Cubans and to Americans and provides political
cover for Castro. Other than that the embargo and travel ban it is
wonderful.

>And by the way:
>Do you feel Cuban citizens should be prohibited from travelling ANYWHERE?

No.

>Your critcism of a travel ban is very "selective".
>Why aren't you saying: listen the USA and Cuba should BOTH drop their travel
>restrictions?

Well, I only have (marginal) input into US policy and not being a
Cuban citizen, have none in Cuba.

>
>Do you feel that the Cuban dictatorship should end and how?

Yes. I don't know.

>Should we not take it upon us to contribute?

Not if you're talking about another Iraq or an Operation Mongoose.

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 10:09:58 AM8/30/03

to

If Cubans could travel freely to the US, we would not let them in. We
would apply the standards for legal travel applicable to countries
like Mexico and the Philippines.

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 10:15:16 AM8/30/03

to

l;et me add...

It was nice to talk with you about this, although I disagree with you.

I know you care deeply for Cuba as do I.

I am under no illusion that the government there is good. There's
only a limited amount that we can do as Americans, and the current
policy is a flop.

The last thing those poor people need is an Iraq style liberation.

George Grapman

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 10:31:44 AM8/30/03

to

Bobito wrote:

> Americans should be able to travel freely to Cuba when Cubans are able to
> travel freely to America

Are you opposed to Americans visiting China?
--
To reply via e-mail please delete "NOSPAM" from address.

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 2:44:00 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f50abba.2079614828@news.supernews.com...

> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:29:22 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> >
> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
> >news:3f507b86.2067274937@news.supernews.com...
> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:15:40 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't like the idea of Cubans not being allowed in hotel rooms,
> >> although they are in fact allowed in public areas of hotels.
> >
> >Get real.
> >You won't make it in to the lobby of a place like the Melia Cohiba.
> >But this is the "petty" part of the Cuban apartheid. The preferential
> >treatment in medical assistance, transport, ...
> >It never ends.
> >You also gloss over the human rights abuses.
>
>
> Get real. You can make it into the lobby of Novotel Miramar which is
> every but as good as Meilia Cohiba.

Get real.
You can't make on to the terrace bar (and lobby) of the Casa Granda in
Santiago which is a lot worse.

> BTW, how many Haitians get to go to Royal Caribbean's Labadee?

Haiti is poor. So are most Cubans by the way.
But any person with the dollars to pay himself a beer can do so.

> I understand the concept of tourist apartheid, but it is not that unique
> to Cuba.

Mixing two things here: the poor - rich barrier and the true "tourist
apartheid" of Cuba.
Keep the both quite seperated please. Two different things all together.
The fact that a father with his hungru daughters walks by a hotel and sees
the tourists eat what his daughetr lacks happens in a lot of places.
In very few countries a well dressed (European clothes) middle aged lady
with two well dressed and well behaved kids are denied access to the patio
bar of a middle class hotel where they want to eat an ice cream while they
have the money to pay for them.
That sets Cuba apart. Cubans are second class citizens in their own
countries. They are the "kaffers" of Castro.

> >
> >> If one
> >> choses to boycott Cuba for this reason, that is a rational choice.
> >
> >I would call it an ethical one.
> >
>
>
> By innuendo it seems that you are calling the decision to travel there
> an unethical one. Is that your point?

Nope.
Everyone decides for oneself.
I travel to Cuba to visit my godson and family.
I feel there is nothing unethical about it. I do take over a lot of basic
help (shoes, clothes) and medicines (10kg a person) for my relatives and the
children's hospital in Santiago.

>
>
> >> But it should not be government policy.
> >
> >again the issue is can solidarty be imposed or should it be voluntary.
> >Any government system imposes solidarity in one way or another
(progressive
> >tax rates and social security is one widely accepted example).
> >The extent to which people are willing to accept that varies.
>
> Why is there no "imposed solidarity" with respect to China?

If you feel travel restrictions should be imposed on China you should call
for them.
The issue here is whether travel restrictions to Cuba can be ethically
justified.
I feel that one should be very weary (as you are) of any limitations of the
personal freedom of the individual.
But I don't think that the fact that there are no travel restrictions on all
morally reprehensible regimes means that those in place on Cuba should be
lifted. Those are separate issues. The first is a clear cut ethical and
moral dilemma. The second is an issue of political hypocrisy. The fact that
political hypocrisy and economic considerations stops certain sanctions from
being put in place does not mean that those that are in place should be
lifted.
The lifting should be considered on it's own merits. The fact that Stalin
killed millions of people does not mean that Hitler is "in the clear". One
was a WW2 ally and the other an enemy does not change the fact that morally
both are genocidal maniacs. Your argument could be interpreted as saying why
attack Hitler if you leave Stalin alone.

> >
> >>I actually have Cuban friends
> >> there. I am not a Cuban, nor do I speak Spanish all that well.
> >
> >My wife is Cuban. ia m fluent in Spanish.
> >I am close to the Cuban reality though not Cuban myself.
> >> I
> >> also communicate with people there regularly. Who benefits from my
> >> not being able to go there?
> >
> >Who benefits from you going there.
>
> I don't think this question is particularly relevant. Who benefits if
> I take a cruise or go to Cancun?

what if you going there ends up keeping a morally corrupt regime in place?
Are you saying that in no way you are responsible for the direct
consequences of your actions?
If your money would go to the Montgomery Alabama KKK, would go go on the
cruise to Cancun?

> >If you stay at casas (see my site www.casaparticular.info) and eat at
> >paladares you can claim some contribution to the income of ordinary
people.
> >If you are at a Melia resort in Varadero Melia, foreign suppliers and the
> >government benefit in that order. Only the few lucky ones that work there
> >(often engineers and doctors) benefit.
> >
> >> And the idea that you can go to Cuba is
> >> hogwash. There are no scheduled flights and you have the burden of
> >> proving that you didn't spend a dime there. You call that freedom to
> >> travel there?
> >
> >Get real.
> >Visit any place like the Lonely Planet site and you will see how many US
> >citizens go via Canada and Mexico.
> >Very few people have ever had any problems.
>
> So are you saying that you can go on scheduled flights from the US?

Nope.
I am saying you can go.
I am saying that the travel ban is a leak as a basket for those that really
want.
What I am saying is that it is more the trade embargo on the sale of travel
related services to US clients than the travel ban that is keeping US
citizens from going.
Do your analysis correctly.
Lifting the travel ban without allowing the "free trade" in travel services
would be a dud.

> Can you use your credit cards issued from US banks?

Yep.
Some places do accept them and the transactions are registered as having hap
pened in Mexico.
You can use Mexican of Canadian cards or travelers cheques. I am not saying
it is as easy to go to Cuba as it is to go to Mexico.
But it is very possible and very easy.
The flights and credit card issues are smokescreens. they constitute an
inconvenience, not an impairment.

> How safe do you
> feel with a wad of cash on you while staying in a casa particular?

In some of them very.
Anyway. You can use other means than cash to take money over (canadian
traveller cheques, debit cards, ...)

> Do you disclose you've been to Cuba on the Immigration/Customs card?

Do you disclose you have been to a bar when you are under 21?
Not a major issue. If all US citizens that did not fully disclose everything
on the US customs card would be put in jail it would no longer be "escape
from Manhattan" but escape from 13 of the 52 states if they made a movie.
Mute point.

>
> >
> >>
> >> I answered your question. You only vaguely answered mine. Should
> >> American citizens be prohibited from traveling to China?
> >
> >Nope.
> >Do you feel you it is unethical to ask of someone not to support
dictatorial
> >regimes?
>
> It is not unethical. But the policy is ineffective and
> counterproductive to Cubans

Nope.
It can be very productive if the proposals of Paya and Sanchez are followed
and if the lifting of trade sanctions iw part of a transition process to
democracy.
Remember South Africa?

> and to Americans and provides political
> cover for Castro.

That by the way is no longer believed by anyone (even in Cuba), but you are
right that it is abused as an excuse.

> Other than that the embargo and travel ban it is
> wonderful.
>
> >And by the way:
> >Do you feel Cuban citizens should be prohibited from travelling ANYWHERE?
>
> No.

So why aren't you asking for an end to their "travel" ban.
Not feeling very concerned here?

> >Your critcism of a travel ban is very "selective".
> >Why aren't you saying: listen the USA and Cuba should BOTH drop their
travel
> >restrictions?
>
>
> Well, I only have (marginal) input into US policy and not being a
> Cuban citizen, have none in Cuba.

Maybe via the travel ban and the trade sanctions you also have a "marginal
input" in to the Cuban policy.
Why cherish your "marginal input" in the US and reject the "marginal input"
in Cuba.
Not consistent.

In a consumer boycott those consumers ( and nations in trade boycotts) that
take an certain amount of personal (national) "discomfort" in their stride
as part of "being part of a process of change for the better".
What you are saying is: "I resent the few practical inconveniences I have as
they far outweigh the suffering of the Cuban people as far as I am
concerned".

That is a very selfish point of view. rather isolationist and not extremely
ethical.

I feel that denying the Cuban regime the "red robber barons" profits from
access to the US markets that would insure "no change" in the abusive
situation in Cuba at perpetuity is justified.

Believe me: the "discomfort" Cubans feel under the regime is a lot worse
than not being able to pay with your usual credit card or having to change
planes in Montreal.

> >Do you feel that the Cuban dictatorship should end and how?
>
> Yes. I don't know.

But you categorically state that trade sanctions wont help.
How about South Africa.

> >Should we not take it upon us to contribute?
>
>
> Not if you're talking about another Iraq or an Operation Mongoose.

Maybe boycotting Cuban products and services (including tourism) suffices.
That is all what is being asked.
No "wars" nor "covert action".
I can live with these peaceful means like I could live with a boycott of
sports shoes, clothing, ... made with (virtual) slave labor. You seem to
have a problem with even these peaceful means. The "inconvenience" you have
outweighs their impact for you.
We can differ on the usefulness of the trade sanctions, but keep one thing
in perspective: the trade sanctions indeed were pretty ineffectual as longs
as the SU was "up and running" as subsidies and guaranteed markets were
available.
The true impact of the trade sanctions ara seen from the moment of the
"special period" in Cuba.
Then the subsidies and falsified trade that hid the true economic
performance of Cuba disappeared.
Since then the sale of food, medicines, medical equipment, building
materials, ... has been lifted (and righly so).
What needs to remain in place in the boycott of Cuban products and services.
If that goes Cuba will be reduced to a communist cheap labor camp, a
"maquiladora" country.
Only a democratic Cuba can avoid these abuses.

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 2:48:49 PM8/30/03

to

No hard feelings here.
But to scrap an imperfect policy (with some very good underlying reasoning
if you do the economical analysis correctly) without a true alternative is
not a solution either.

I support the trade sanctions, but have sent by now over 1500 kg of
medicines to Cuba via tourists.
I support aid to the Cuban people via ngo's like MSF, but have seen how the
regime abuses and diverts aid and therefore prefer it not to go via the
government (except the emergency aid like the WFP aid in Oriente).
I don't like the sex tourists and the "playa" tourist, but I support the
Cubans that rent out rooms to them.
There is no 100% solution here, but about anything is better than not doing
anything.

PL

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f50b092....@news.supernews.com...

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 2:49:58 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f50afcb....@news.supernews.com...

> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:23:58 +0000 (UTC), "Bobito"
> <bot...@legover.land> wrote:
>
> >Americans should be able to travel freely to Cuba when Cubans are able to
> >travel freely to America
> >
> >
>
>
> If Cubans could travel freely to the US, we would not let them in.

Who says they would want to stay (the reason to keep them out) if they saw a
future in their own country?

PL

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 4:34:34 PM8/30/03

to

I am talking about US policy, not what Cuban applicants would want.

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 4:56:32 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f510a20...@news.supernews.com...

US policy is based on the premise that all Cubans, Mexicans,... want to
remain in the US (and not return).
If they have a decent country to go back to this premise would be untrue and
like Belgians (before 9/11) they would get a visa waiver.
Note: Cuba was as developed as Belgium in the early 1950's (before Castro).
It was the third developed nation in the Americas.
If it had remained that a "visa waiver" would be no problem (see the nr.2 in
development: Canada)
Castro took it to the status of "third world" country.

PL

Jeffrey Turner

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 4:58:12 PM8/30/03

to

PL wrote:
> <Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote:

> 14% of Cubans is undernourished.
> The Cuban health system is failing.
> There is an emergency.

Cuba has a far better health system than
anywhere else in Latin America, despite
not being allowed to imports medicines from
the US. There are a surprising number of
undernourished people right here in the US.

>>and there is no benefit to anyone as a result of my concession of
>>rights
>
> false. By denying the Cuban elite access to the US markets (which they
> desperately want) you are giving the next generation of leadres (Castro
> won't budge) an incentive to change instead of giving them a reason to hold
> on to the system of Human rights abuses.

To change into what? Another Dominican Republic?

>>Don't you see that the embargo actually gives Fidel Castro political
>>cover for his government's shortcomings?
>
> Most Cubans don't believe that any more by the way.
> The trade sanctions (and the EU aid sanctions) provide an incentive for
> change.
>
> But on the central issue: do you accept a (very small) limitation of your
> rights to support the rights of others.

You're being totally hypocritical. The fact that you own a
computer proves that you don't forego buying items made by
exploited laborers. Your wardrobe would, of necessity, be
very limited also.

--Jeff

--
"an enormous Proportion of Property vested in
a few Individuals is dangerous to the Rights,
and destructive of the Common Happiness, of
Mankind; and therefore every free State hath
a Right by its Laws to discourage the Possession
of such Property."
Ben Franklin

"To delight in war is a merit in the soldier,
a dangerous quality in the captain, and a
positive crime in the statesman."
George Santayana

"Bring them on."
George W. Bush

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 5:23:57 PM8/30/03

to

Stop financing terrorism.
Help collect signatures for the Don't trade with Cuba petition.

Here is the petition : http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

It is printable.
Lillian
http://xld.com/public/cuba/cuba.htm

"Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:3F510FE4...@localnet.com...

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 5:24:00 PM8/30/03

to

"Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:3F510FE4...@localnet.com...

> PL wrote:
> > <Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote:
>
> > 14% of Cubans is undernourished.
> > The Cuban health system is failing.
> > There is an emergency.
>
> Cuba has a far better health system than
> anywhere else in Latin America, despite
> not being allowed to imports medicines from
> the US. There are a surprising number of
> undernourished people right here in the US.
>

Two fallacies here:

1. Cuba has a far better health system than anywhere else in Latin America
See: Cuban doctor visits DeVos Children's Hospital

But you can't imagine how much that means until you've seen Cuba.

"It would be like walking into a hospital in the 50's in the United States,"
says Marc Bohland, Vice President of First-Hand Aid. He says one of the
group's main goals is getting medicine to hospitals and clinics in Cuba.

Medicines like aspirin and cough syrup, which are easy for us to get, are
difficult to obtain there. Instead of private rooms, numerous patients are
kept in a room together. Parents often perform nursing duties. And many
patients who stay overnight bring their own bedding from home. While Bohland
says the doctors are extremely educated, they don't have the tools or
technology.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/7714

But then if you believe Castro's "statistics" there are no prblems.
But then how luch confidence can one have in these "statistics"?

Pax Christi.

"The Ministry of Health does everything in its power to conceal such
evidence, even supplying false figures to the World Health Organization, in
order not to discredit the Cuban health services."

The full quote :

"Jeronimo tells us about the diseases now prevalent in Cuba, due to
malnutrition, lack of infrastructures, medicines, hygiene and safe drinking
water. To admit this in public can cost one his or her job and even a prison
sentence (for the 'crime' of making 'enemy propaganda'). This is what
happened at the beginning of the Nineties to former Sub-Minister of Health
Dr. Terry, 'set to cool' after he presented Castro with a report confirming
the local presence of 'peripheric neuritis' (a form of Beri-beri), an
affliction which affects the nervous system and is due to vitamin
deficiency. People dying from this disease get written off as victims of
something else, a diagnosis that doctors are often forced to endorse, lest
the Revolution's achievements be placed under threat. This is also how the
prominent doctor Desi Mendoza was vanquished sometime ago, jailed in
Santiago de Cuba for warning against the appearance of 'dengue hemorrágico'.
This disease begins with bleeding of the eyes and has caused many deaths
until now. It is transmitted by a fly that thrives on unhygienic conditions
and the lack of adequate medicines. The Ministry of Health does everything
in its power to conceal such evidence, even supplying false figures to the
World Health Organization, in order not to discredit the Cuban health
services.' "

Source : http://www.antenna.nl/paxchristi/cubaenpo.html

(ADS) "AIDS in Cuba"

Lancet (08/26/89) Vol. 2, No. 8661, P. 512
Anderson, William H.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Abstract: William Anderson of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston writes that
he believes Cuba has not been candid in its reporting of HIV infection and
AIDS cases to the World Health Organization. Anderson writes that Cuba's
policy of mandatory universal testing and quarantine of HIV-positive
individuals suggest a major health problem. However, Cuba claims to have a
low level of seroprevalence. Anderson writes that previous studies and
demographic data contradict these claims and suggests that the Cuban program
of testing and quarantine is unreliable. A study of seroprevalence in Cuban
refugees in 1980 indicates a 45-fold greater seroprevalence than the recent
study. The discrepancy is not explained by selection bias because HIV was
much less common then. Cuba has a population of 10.2 million, 12 percent of
whom are men under 30 who have spent extensive periods in central Africa,
and an increasing incidence of syphilis and gonorrhoea. These factors point
to a larger HIV prevalence than Cuba reports, according to Anderson.

Copyright (c) 1989 - Information, Inc., Bethesda, MD. This information is
provided by the Center for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC), National AIDS
Clearinghouse as a public service. Noncommercial reproduction encouraged.

observer

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 5:26:57 PM8/30/03

to

<AbelM...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20002-3F5...@storefull-2178.public.lawson.webtv.net...

> I don't believe in embargoes. I think they are, for the most part,
> counterproductive. And this business of regime change, it doesn't help
> any either. Look at our government for instance, threatened by Al
> Qaeda, we are forced to abandon many of our own freedoms. By
> threatening Cuba's government so much, as we tend to do especially when
> Republicans are in power, all it does is force them to be more
> repressive also. This is not a good situation to be in. And if
> repressive governments are supposed to be punished by embargoes and
> threats of "regime change", then why aren't we punishing China, the most
> repressive government in the world? But instead, China is one of our
> largest trading partners and is given "most favored nation" status.
> Republican policies are pockmarked with hypocricy.
>
> Abel Malcolm
> http://www.democrats.org
> _______

Why blame Repubs? A Dem president initiated the embargo.
An invasion of Cuba was directed by a Dem president.
Didn't you learn that in school?

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 5:33:43 PM8/30/03

to

Could you help to collect signatures on the Don't trade with Cuba petition ?

Here is the petition: http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

It is printable.

Lillian
http://xld.com/public/cuba/cuba.htm

<AbelM...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20002-3F5...@storefull-2178.public.lawson.webtv.net...

observer

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 5:33:20 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f507b86.2067274937@news.supernews.com...

> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:15:40 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> I don't like the idea of Cubans not being allowed in hotel rooms,
> although they are in fact allowed in public areas of hotels. If one
> choses to boycott Cuba for this reason, that is a rational choice.
> But it should not be government policy. I actually have Cuban friends
> there. I am not a Cuban, nor do I speak Spanish all that well. I
> also communicate with people there regularly. Who benefits from my
> not being able to go there? And the idea that you can go to Cuba is
> hogwash. There are no scheduled flights and you have the burden of
> proving that you didn't spend a dime there. You call that freedom to
> travel there?
>
> I answered your question. You only vaguely answered mine. Should
> American citizens be prohibited from traveling to China?
>
>
>
>
>

A young lady I know visited Cuba. The Cuban relatives she came to visit
were not allowed in the lobby of the hotel or any of the rooms.

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 5:44:19 PM8/30/03

to

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:44:00 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:

>
><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
>news:3f50abba.2079614828@news.supernews.com...
>> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:29:22 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
>> >news:3f507b86.2067274937@news.supernews.com...
>> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:15:40 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I don't like the idea of Cubans not being allowed in hotel rooms,
>> >> although they are in fact allowed in public areas of hotels.
>> >
>> >Get real.
>> >You won't make it in to the lobby of a place like the Melia Cohiba.
>> >But this is the "petty" part of the Cuban apartheid. The preferential
>> >treatment in medical assistance, transport, ...
>> >It never ends.
>> >You also gloss over the human rights abuses.
>>
>>
>> Get real. You can make it into the lobby of Novotel Miramar which is
>> every but as good as Meilia Cohiba.
>
>Get real.
>You can't make on to the terrace bar (and lobby) of the Casa Granda in
>Santiago which is a lot worse.

Also...Cubans can enter the lobby of the Hotel Ambos Mundos in Havana.
I have personal experience in both these places, and we had no
problem. That is not to say that I think you are wrong on the
tourist-apartheid issue.

Do you go there legally? If so, why should YOU go and I can't. That
seems like travel apartheid to me. And it is THIS COUNTRY that is
fostering it. If not, then you would seem a little hypocritical.

Hitler was attacked purely for national security reasons. The Cuban
embargo once made sense on these terms, but it doesn't now. The
difference in treatment of China and Cuba is very important. It shows
that the government acts out of malleable principles, or that its
acting on principles is tempered by convenience. "Principles" are
principles only to the extent that they are applied uniformly.
Political hypocrisy is dangerous, because it breeds disrespect for the
law.

National travel restrictions to Cuba "can be ethically justified" as
can a lifting of travel restrictions. Any number of contradictory
policies can be ethically justified.

>
>> >
>> >>I actually have Cuban friends
>> >> there. I am not a Cuban, nor do I speak Spanish all that well.
>> >
>> >My wife is Cuban. ia m fluent in Spanish.
>> >I am close to the Cuban reality though not Cuban myself.
>> >> I
>> >> also communicate with people there regularly. Who benefits from my
>> >> not being able to go there?
>> >
>> >Who benefits from you going there.
>>
>> I don't think this question is particularly relevant. Who benefits if
>> I take a cruise or go to Cancun?
>
>what if you going there ends up keeping a morally corrupt regime in place?
>Are you saying that in no way you are responsible for the direct
>consequences of your actions?
>If your money would go to the Montgomery Alabama KKK, would go go on the
>cruise to Cancun?

Ponder the phrase "If going there ends up keeping a morally corrupt
regime in place." There are alot of assumptions loaded into that
phrase. It implies that not going there, etc., has some chance of
success, which we know from experience is not going to happen. When
you travel to Cuba with your family, you are helping to keep a morally
corrupt regime in place.

Would it be ethical for the US Navy to blockade Cuba and starve the
government (and everybody else) into submission?

As for direct consequences of actions, I am sure you meant to say
"indirect." There are many indirect consequences of our actions. Too
many to fathom.

Is the embargo directly or indirectly responsible for personal
deprivation of the Cuban people? This question's answer tempers the
ethical issues you have raised.

See 18 USC 1001.

> If all US citizens that did not fully disclose everything
>on the US customs card would be put in jail it would no longer be "escape
>from Manhattan" but escape from 13 of the 52 states if they made a movie.
>Mute point.
>
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I answered your question. You only vaguely answered mine. Should
>> >> American citizens be prohibited from traveling to China?
>> >
>> >Nope.
>> >Do you feel you it is unethical to ask of someone not to support
>dictatorial
>> >regimes?
>>
>> It is not unethical. But the policy is ineffective and
>> counterproductive to Cubans
>
>Nope.
>It can be very productive if the proposals of Paya and Sanchez are followed
>and if the lifting of trade sanctions iw part of a transition process to
>democracy.
>Remember South Africa?
>
>> and to Americans and provides political
>> cover for Castro.
>
>That by the way is no longer believed by anyone (even in Cuba), but you are
>right that it is abused as an excuse.

You keep saying this, claiming some sort of omniscience. My
experience tells me otherwise.

>
>> Other than that the embargo and travel ban it is
>> wonderful.
>>
>> >And by the way:
>> >Do you feel Cuban citizens should be prohibited from travelling ANYWHERE?
>>
>> No.
>
>So why aren't you asking for an end to their "travel" ban.
>Not feeling very concerned here?
>
>> >Your critcism of a travel ban is very "selective".
>> >Why aren't you saying: listen the USA and Cuba should BOTH drop their
>travel
>> >restrictions?

I am saying that. Cuba listens to me less than the US.

>>
>>
>> Well, I only have (marginal) input into US policy and not being a
>> Cuban citizen, have none in Cuba.
>
>Maybe via the travel ban and the trade sanctions you also have a "marginal
>input" in to the Cuban policy.
>Why cherish your "marginal input" in the US and reject the "marginal input"
>in Cuba.
>Not consistent.
>
>In a consumer boycott those consumers ( and nations in trade boycotts) that
>take an certain amount of personal (national) "discomfort" in their stride
>as part of "being part of a process of change for the better".
>What you are saying is: "I resent the few practical inconveniences I have as
>they far outweigh the suffering of the Cuban people as far as I am
>concerned".
>
>That is a very selfish point of view. rather isolationist and not extremely
>ethical.

I didn't say it was "extremely ethical," merely ethical. Again, your
argument is that suffering of the Cuban people is somehow alleviated
by the embargo. I think the opposite is true. And I am not saying
inherent inefficiencies of a command economy do not shoulder some
blame. It probably shoulders the lion's share of the blame. But is
your position that the embargo has NO effect on people's suffering?
That makes my case for its inefficacy.

Now, as to my minor inconveniences and selfishness. Travel is
selfish. You enrich yourself, and others help you do it. You don't
really need to be enriched.

I don't need to go to Cuba. I am just interested in that country. I
could listen solely to the CANF and not see things with my eyes, and
anyway, seeing Cuba for a shirt trip is purely superficial. Obtaining
personal observation is not really important.

I can meet some people there and develop life-long friendships, which
I have done. But new friends are not really important.

I love Cuban music. They don't have alot of it here where I live.
Bush is refusing visas for Cuban performers to play here (probably
along some ethical consrtuct with a strong aloy of political
expediency). But then, music is not very important.

We can whittle away at personal freedoms all day long and DEMONSTRATE
quite effectively that they are merely minor inconveniences.

No what would be better about the world had I nver gone to Cuba?
Castro will rule Cuba till he drops dead, and nothing short of an Iwo
Jima style invasion is going to change that.

observer

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 5:39:26 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f50afcb....@news.supernews.com...

A Cuban gymnast at an international meet in Anaheim just defected.
He said the reason he went to the meet was to defect. Things are
terrible in Cuba. The Dictatorship is brutal.

Bobito

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 5:41:14 PM8/30/03

to

i believe anyone should be allowed to travel anywhere.

I've been to Cuba and seen for myself the conditions people live in. If, as
an American you want to go to China, you are free to go there.

Can Cubans go to China, or anywhere else for that matter???

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:04:35 PM8/30/03

to

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:48:49 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:

>No hard feelings here.
>But to scrap an imperfect policy (with some very good underlying reasoning
>if you do the economical analysis correctly) without a true alternative is
>not a solution either.
>
>I support the trade sanctions, but have sent by now over 1500 kg of
>medicines to Cuba via tourists.
>I support aid to the Cuban people via ngo's like MSF, but have seen how the
>regime abuses and diverts aid and therefore prefer it not to go via the
>government (except the emergency aid like the WFP aid in Oriente).
>I don't like the sex tourists and the "playa" tourist, but I support the
>Cubans that rent out rooms to them.
>There is no 100% solution here, but about anything is better than not doing
>anything.
>
>PL

I don't support sex tourism and am not a beach person, although I went
to Varadero on a day excursion with my group. I have since learned
that Cubans can't go there. I don't like that, and I don't want to go
back there.

I went to Cuba in January 2003 as part of a group with a treasury
department license to study Cuban dance and music on a non-degree
basis. I am going again in November. Bush has ended this sort of
visit, claiming its abusive (presumably because we can have fun).

My wife and I befriended several of the Cubans we came in contact
with, especially one of the dance instructors, and we write her
monthly. She has no Miami relatives to send her anything ever. She
doesn't work in a hotel. She has become on the other hand like a
little sister to me. I, a white guy from the South, have a negrita
little sister now. Its a little ironic. I am old enough to
remember the end of apartheid in Louisiana. It was not pretty. I
hate to say, but my family supported apartheid, as did basically
everyone I knew. Even today, you can sense as a white person that
many blacks are not open to you. I had a completely different sense
there. The blacks and the whites there seem to get along with each
other better there than here, although my observation may be a little
superficial.

My visit there has enriched my life. No ifs and or buts about it.

As far as sex tourism, I read before going there, that it was rampant
and that you would be acosted even if you were with your wife. We had
no such scenes. I saw a few hooker-looking types, but I can't say it
was any more flagrant than my native New Orleans.

I really enjoyed these exchanges with you. You know about your
subject, although not everything.

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:08:22 PM8/30/03

to

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:33:20 GMT, "observer" <obse...@privacy.nu>
wrote:

my pesonal experience was different

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:12:33 PM8/30/03

to

Belgium in the early 1950s was a destroyed country. It sounds like a
very misleading comparison.

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:15:49 PM8/30/03

to

You are financing terrorism when you travel there. For more data on this,
see the terrorism link at the end of the petition page:
http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

Lillian
http://xld.com/public/cuba/cuba.htm

"Bobito" <bot...@legover.land> wrote in message
news:bir5lq$380$1...@titan.btinternet.com...

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:18:35 PM8/30/03

to

Observer:

Thank you for your message.

Please help to collect signatures on the petition to stop financing
terrorism in Cuba: http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

Lillian
http://xld.com/public/cuba/cuba.htm

---------------------

"observer" <obse...@privacy.nu> wrote in message
news:iQ84b.1332$gt1.1...@twister.socal.rr.com...

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:25:42 PM8/30/03

to

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:15:49 -0500, "Lillian Martinez" <l...@xld.com>
wrote:

hogwash

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:22:18 PM8/30/03

to

That's not all. Cuban citizens are also not allowed to go fishing at sea,
among other things. The government would lose control over them if they
could feed themselves freely.

Lillian
Petition to stop financing terrorism:
http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

"observer" <obse...@privacy.nu> wrote in message

news:AK84b.1307$gt1.1...@twister.socal.rr.com...

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:24:20 PM8/30/03

to

Observer:

I don't know about China, but Cuba is sponsoring terrorism. Why finance it?

Lillian
Petition: http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

------------------------

"observer" <obse...@privacy.nu> wrote in message

news:BE84b.1279$gt1.1...@twister.socal.rr.com...

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:36:13 PM8/30/03

to

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:26:57 GMT, "observer" <obse...@privacy.nu>
wrote:

yeah, when I was 2

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:36:52 PM8/30/03

to

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:24:20 -0500, "Lillian Martinez" <l...@xld.com>
wrote:

>Observer:

>
>I don't know about China, but Cuba is sponsoring terrorism. Why finance it?

terrorism eh? are they "linked" to Osama bin Laden like Iraq?

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:32:45 PM8/30/03

to

Paul,
Thanks for the info.

Lillian
Petition: http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

----------------------------

"PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:QB84b.9860$tg7.4...@phobos.telenet-ops.be...

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:32:32 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f5110b5...@news.supernews.com...

> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:44:00 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> >
> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
> >news:3f50abba.2079614828@news.supernews.com...
> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:29:22 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
> >> >news:3f507b86.2067274937@news.supernews.com...
> >> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:15:40 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I don't like the idea of Cubans not being allowed in hotel rooms,
> >> >> although they are in fact allowed in public areas of hotels.
> >> >
> >> >Get real.
> >> >You won't make it in to the lobby of a place like the Melia Cohiba.
> >> >But this is the "petty" part of the Cuban apartheid. The preferential
> >> >treatment in medical assistance, transport, ...
> >> >It never ends.
> >> >You also gloss over the human rights abuses.
> >>
> >>
> >> Get real. You can make it into the lobby of Novotel Miramar which is
> >> every but as good as Meilia Cohiba.
> >
> >Get real.
> >You can't make on to the terrace bar (and lobby) of the Casa Granda in
> >Santiago which is a lot worse.
>
>
> Also...Cubans can enter the lobby of the Hotel Ambos Mundos in Havana.
> I have personal experience in both these places, and we had no
> problem. That is not to say that I think you are wrong on the
> tourist-apartheid issue.

Again you show your ignorance about Cuba.
Havan isn't Cuba.
Oriente is a lot worse than Havana.
I had a friend of mine molested in the lobby of the "Havana libre".
A controller of a Cuban mixed company was harrased in the Melia Cohiba.
My mother in law wasn't (at first) allowed to stay in the three bedroom
appartment I rented in the "Villa Panamericana"
Get real.
Your experience is very limited.
Friends of mine raised a scandal to allow my sister in law in to the "san
juan" dump in Havana.

> >
> >> BTW, how many Haitians get to go to Royal Caribbean's Labadee?
> >
> >Haiti is poor. So are most Cubans by the way.
> >But any person with the dollars to pay himself a beer can do so.
> >
> >> I understand the concept of tourist apartheid, but it is not that
unique
> >> to Cuba.
> >
> >Mixing two things here: the poor - rich barrier and the true "tourist
> >apartheid" of Cuba.
> >Keep the both quite seperated please. Two different things all together.
> >The fact that a father with his hungru daughters walks by a hotel and
sees
> >the tourists eat what his daughetr lacks happens in a lot of places.
> >In very few countries a well dressed (European clothes) middle aged lady
> >with two well dressed and well behaved kids are denied access to the
patio
> >bar of a middle class hotel where they want to eat an ice cream while
they
> >have the money to pay for them.
> >That sets Cuba apart. Cubans are second class citizens in their own
> >countries. They are the "kaffers" of Castro.

No comments?

> >> >
> >> >> If one
> >> >> choses to boycott Cuba for this reason, that is a rational choice.
> >> >
> >> >I would call it an ethical one.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> By innuendo it seems that you are calling the decision to travel there
> >> an unethical one. Is that your point?
> >
> >Nope.
> >Everyone decides for oneself.
> >I travel to Cuba to visit my godson and family.
> >I feel there is nothing unethical about it. I do take over a lot of basic
> >help (shoes, clothes) and medicines (10kg a person) for my relatives and
the
> >children's hospital in Santiago.
> >>
> >>
>
> Do you go there legally?

Yes.
I am a EU citizen.

> If so, why should YOU go and I can't.

Fallacy.
I can go using my Visa and getting my passport stamped.
I can't use my American Express.
I have to change flight in Dusseldorf, Paris, Amsterdam or Madrid.
You can't use your visa.
You can change flights in Montreal, Cancun, ...
You can't get your passport stamped.

That is it.

> That
> seems like travel apartheid to me.

Nope.
What stes us apart is that I can use my Visa card and get my passport
stamped.
Small difference.

> And it is THIS COUNTRY that is
> fostering it. If not, then you would seem a little hypocritical.

Remember: Cubans can't travel, have no Visa card and only get passports by
paying 20 times the average monthly wage.
Keep focused.

Nope.
Japan was attcked for security reasons.
International solidarity came in to play in Europe.

>The Cuban
> embargo once made sense on these terms, but it doesn't now.

That is the biggest error you made.
It was irrelevant in the past (the SU aid eliminated the effects).
It is very relevant and very functional now.

> The
> difference in treatment of China and Cuba is very important.

Nope.

> It shows
> that the government acts out of malleable principles, or that its
> acting on principles is tempered by convenience.

It shows that the US government isn't 100% consistent.
But I have been in China and Cuba and China has more freedom than Cuba.
So you are hypocritical in not making that distinction.

> "Principles" are
> principles only to the extent that they are applied uniformly.
> Political hypocrisy is dangerous, because it breeds disrespect for the
> law.

By which you mean that you should let a "100% certified" dictator off the
hook if you do not punish a "86%" certified one.
Sounds stupid to me.
If you feel that strongly about China you should support sanctions against
China.
Not the ending of the trade boycott against Cuba.

> National travel restrictions to Cuba "can be ethically justified" as
> can a lifting of travel restrictions.

Make your case.

> Any number of contradictory
> policies can be ethically justified.

Unlike you I think humand rights are absolute, not "flexible", it seems.

> >
> >> >
> >> >>I actually have Cuban friends
> >> >> there. I am not a Cuban, nor do I speak Spanish all that well.
> >> >
> >> >My wife is Cuban. ia m fluent in Spanish.
> >> >I am close to the Cuban reality though not Cuban myself.
> >> >> I
> >> >> also communicate with people there regularly. Who benefits from my
> >> >> not being able to go there?
> >> >
> >> >Who benefits from you going there.
> >>
> >> I don't think this question is particularly relevant. Who benefits if
> >> I take a cruise or go to Cancun?
> >
> >what if you going there ends up keeping a morally corrupt regime in
place?
> >Are you saying that in no way you are responsible for the direct
> >consequences of your actions?
> >If your money would go to the Montgomery Alabama KKK, would go go on the
> >cruise to Cancun?
>
>
> Ponder the phrase "If going there ends up keeping a morally corrupt
> regime in place." There are alot of assumptions loaded into that
> phrase.

Nope.
A lot of facts:

1. the government has a stake in all travel companies (some are mixed)
2. gaviota (hotels, car rental, ...) is owned by the Cuban military
.......

> It implies that not going there, etc., has some chance of
> success, which we know from experience is not going to happen.

Nope.
It states that denying Cuba access to the US market in "tourism services"
can work as a pressure mechanism.
Please explain why it wouldn't.

> When
> you travel to Cuba with your family, you are helping to keep a morally
> corrupt regime in place.

In a way, yes.
My biggest fault is that I rent a car.
Second is that I buy at state shops.
I do stay at casas, eat at paladares.
I don't fly Cubana.
I try to "atone" for my sins by setting up a website for casas and by taking
over lots of medicines.

> Would it be ethical for the US Navy to blockade Cuba and starve the
> government (and everybody else) into submission?

Nope.
I favor trade of food and medicines.
But I do agree that we should not buy Cuban goods or services.

> As for direct consequences of actions, I am sure you meant to say
> "indirect." There are many indirect consequences of our actions. Too
> many to fathom.

True.
But some are direct consequences.
Stay at a Gaviota hotel and the Cuban army benefits.
Rent that Peugeot 405 of Gaviota and the army benefits.

> Is the embargo directly or indirectly responsible for personal
> deprivation of the Cuban people? This question's answer tempers the
> ethical issues you have raised.

In my opinion: no.
The mismanagement of the Cuban economy by Castro is responsible of the
hardship.
Castro himself admitted that before he took over there was no hunger in
Cuba:

See:

1. Maurice Halperin:

"Castro himself admitted that while there was poverty, there was no
economic
crisis
and no hunger in Cuba before the Revolution. (See Maurice Halperin:
The Rise and Fall of Fidel Castro, University of California, 1972,
pgs. 24, 25, 37)"
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/bright/dolgoff/cubanrevolution/chapter7.html

Here is Halperin's record.

Who was Maurice haplerin?

In 1953 Maurice Halperin was called before the Senate Internal
Security Subcommittee to defend himself on charges of espionage. He was
accused
of having supplied Soviet sources with classified material from the
Office of Strategic Services while he was an employee during World War II.
http://www.system.missouri.edu/upress/spring1995/kirschn.htm

Maurice Halperin, the now 88-year old first visited Cuba in 1935 and
then was deported by the Bautista government, then he returned later as an
adviser for the Castro government. Halperin gives a great insight into
his view of Cuba of the past and the present.
http://historyoftheworld.com/latin/cuba.htm

Professor emeritus and political scientist Maurice Halperin passed
away February 9, due to a stroke. He was one of Simon Fraser University's
best loved and most distinguished professors, and had been with the
University since its infancy in 1968. He would have been 89 on March 3.

Halperin was an authority on Cuba, and wrote several books on its
politics and culture. His most recent publication was **Return to Havana**,
published in 1994.

He was chief of the Latin American Division with the Office of
Strategic Services (OSS) during World War II and chair of Latin American
Studies
at Boston University in 1949. He received Brazil's Order of the Southern
Cross for scholarly contributions.

In 1935, Halperin was part of an abortive mission with the League of
American Writers to investigate human rights abuses in Cuba.
Blacklisted during the "Red Scare" in the US in the 1950s, he and his wife
Edith
left journeyed to Moscow, Mexico, and at the personal invitation of Che
Guevara, to Havana. For six years, Halperin worked as a university lecturer
and
government official in Cuba before leaving for SFU.

"He was a remarkable man and intellect who lived a long full life,"
said Ted Cohn, a colleague in Political Science since1977.

"I have many memories, including his immediate challenge to swim at
least half a mile daily in the university's pool.... "

"He was a wonderful and immensely interesting man," recalls another
long-time SFU colleague and friend Dr. Lenard Cohen.

"He was a treasure of stories of politics and power and how they are
used and should be analysed, and we will miss him a great deal."

http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/95-1/issue9/halp.html

A friend of Che.
Persecuted by Mc Carthy.
Still a "questionable source" for Dan.
Now where does that put this idiot Dan on the political spectrum? (should I
say the "lying spectrum"?)

2. The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations

Even with Russian subsidies people in Cuba were undernourished:

Table 4: Prevalence of undernourishment

Latin America and the Caribbean

Country Number of undernourished

(%)
(million)

1979-81 1990-92 1995-97 1979-81 1990-92 1995-97

Cuba 0.3 0.3 2.1 3 3 19

http://www.fao.org/Regional/Lamerica/LARC/PDFing/006e.pdf

3% of the population EVEN WITH Russian subsidies.

The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations was founded in
1945 with a mandate to raise levels of nutrition and standards of living, to
improve agricultural productivity, and to better the condition of rural
populations.
Today, FAO is one of the largest specialized agencies in the United Nations
system and the lead agency for agriculture, forestry, fisheries and rural
development. An intergovernmental organization, FAO has 183 member countries
plus one member organization, the European Community.

Since its inception, FAO has worked to alleviate poverty and hunger by
promoting agricultural development, improved nutrition and the pursuit of
food security - defined as the access of all people at all times to the food
they need for an active and healthy life.

http://www.fao.org/UNFAO/e/wmain-e.htm

The data quoted comes from:

TWENTY-SIXTH FAO REGIONAL CONFERENCE

FOR LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN

Merida, Mexico, 10 to 14 April 2000

FOLLOW-UP TO THE WORLD FOOD SUMMIT

http://www.fao.org/Regional/Lamerica/LARC/PDFing/006e.pdf

3. Sam Dolgoff

Armando Hart, a member of Castro's innermost ruling group, made the
extremely significant observation that:

. . . it is certain that capitalism had attained high levels of
organization, efficiency and production that declined after the
Revolution. . . (Juventud Rebelde, November 2, 1969; quoted by Rene
Dumont, Is Cuba Socialist?,

Paul A. Baran, an ardent pro-Castroite in the equally ardent Monthly
Review pamphlet, Reflections on the Cuban Revolution (1961)
substantiates what every economist, as well as amateurs like Castro,
has been saying:
...the Cuban Revolution was born with a silver spoon in its mouth. .
.the world renowned French agronomist, Rene Dumont, has estimated that
if properly cultivated as intensively as South China, Cuba could feed
fifty million people. . . the Cuban Revolution is spared the painful,
but ineluctable compulsion that has beset preceding socialist
revolutions: the necessity to force tightening of people's belts in
order to lay the foundations for a better tomorrow. . .(p. 23)

Theodore Draper quotes Anial Escalante, (before he was purged by
Castro) one of the leading communists, who admitted that:
...in reality, Cuba was not one of the countries with the lowest
standard of living of the masses in America, but on the contrary, one
of the highest standards of living, and it was here where the first
great . . . democratic social revolution of the continent burst forth.
. . If the historical development had been dictated by the false axiom
[revolutions come first in poorest countries] the revolution should
have been first produced in Haiti, Colombia or even Chile, countries
of greater poverty for the masses than the Cuba of 1958. . . (quoted
in Draper's Castro's Revolution: Myths and Realities; New York, 1962,
p. 22)

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/dolgoff/cubanrevolution
/chapter7.html

Name of author see:
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/dolgoff/cubanrevolution/toc.html

Sam Dolgoff
Biography

Sam Dolgoff, my old friend who died last week, spoke from sidewalk
soapboxes and in union meeting halls for more than 60 years, and during all
that time, what caught everyone's attention was his tough cocky style, half
New York, half Joe Hill. Flames of mockery and indignation danced above his
head. The man identified with the downtrodden workers, and he shouted "It's
a cryin' shame!" And the way those words bellowed from his mouth, the gruff
rumble of his laughter, the thrust of his bulldog face and his workman's
hands spread in a gesture of sweet reason--every single trait said, in
effect: Sam Dolgoff is [not] for the working class. He is the working class.
And the rest of you goddamned bastards can say anything you please, but your
opinion will not sway him one solitary inch.

He was born in 1902 in Russia, where his uncle later became a
well-known novelist (and died in a Stalinist concentration camp). But most
of his childhood was spent on the Lower East Side and in the Bronx and a
brief childhood it was, because at age 11 or 12 he went into his father's
trade house painting, and stayed there until he retired. He dipped his foot
into the Young People's Socialist League. But Socialism was tepid. So he
went over to the Road to Freedom anarchist group and to the Industrial
Workers of the World (IWW), the Wobblies, and that was home and school.

He rode the rails for the Wobblies, sometimes as a gandy dancer (or
maintenance man), or else hopping boxcars, and he always looked for the
chance to stand in front of a crowd and, in that broken cello of a voice'
pop off, as he liked to say, on the rights of labor. He and a couple of
Wobblies drove from Kansas City to Chicago in a hearse bearing a big
sign--JUSTICE IS DEAD IN CALIFORNIA! FREE TOM MOONEY!--to drum up crowds.
The message never seems to have varied much. He was for grassroots
democratic unions and militant direct action. For absolute equality,
tolerance, and liberty--"the equal right to be different," as he once said.
For the abolition of all authoritarian social relations, beginning with the
state. For the emancipation of humanity. And when the golden sun of the
revolutionary future dawned, he expected the militant rank and file labor
organizations to form One Big Union and take over industry and administer
society in the light of reason. Anarcho-syndicalism--trade unionism with a
libertarian socialist goal in other words--was the name of this doctrine.

At any time, Dolgoff could probably have moved up to a more
comfortable life, either as a painting contractor or as a staffer in the
unions. His talents were obvious. He devoured works of political theory in
half a dozen languages, and he turned himself over the years into an
authentic political intellectual, the author of books and pamphlets on
American labor, the Spanish Civil War, Third World revolution, and the
theories of M. A. Bakunin, the Russian anarchist. But his notion of
egalitarianism would never let him use these talents to rise above the
ranks. He was happy to move up with the working class, but not from it, to
borrow a phrase from Eugene Debs. One of his Wobbly tours took him to
Cleveland where he met his life companion, Esther, standing among the crowd,
and after that, with a family to bring up, he was in no position to roam the
rails. So it was back to house painting, with rabble-rousing on the
side--and no question of a different or more remunerative trade. If the
unions in New York put up cooperative housing for workers, which they did,
he was content to sign up for a good apartment, and in that way live in a
better style. But not in any other way.

Everything he did was opposed by powerful people. There were
racketeers in the painters' union, and still are. His revolutionary efforts
in the town of New Brunswick, New Jersey, led him to describe that benighted
place as, in his inflection, "a bunch a bastards." The New York Red Squad
infiltrated his meetings at the old Labor Temple on 14th Street. And the
Communist Party, USA, was still another bunch a bastards. The Wobblies and
anarchists climbed on their soapboxes to do their public service--and
Communist toughs shouted them down and beat them, too, if they could get
away with it. Even Ralph Chaplin, the Wobbly poet who wrote the anthem of
the American labor movement, "Solidarity Forever," got shouted down by the
commies. When that Kansas City hearse reached Chicago, it was the
Communists, not the police, who tried to steal it away.

News from the old country didn't favor the Communists, either. In the
1920s and '30s, the Wobblies and anarchists had underground ties throughout
the Soviet Union, and they knew that their own comrades, not to mention
millions of other people, were getting shipped to the prison camps. The very
first detailed accounts of the Soviet gulag to reach the United States came
from Dolgoff's circle of comrades, notably from his own personal mentor, the
venerable Russian revolutionary-in-exile, G. P. Maximoff.

So the battle against communism took its place in Dolgoff's
agitational work. As early as 1929, he toured the soft-coke mines of
Illinois organizing the Progressive Miners Union for the IWW and warning the
miners against Bolshevism. During the '30s he set himself up as the American
representative of Spain's largest antifascist organization, the National
Confederation of Labor, anarcho-syndicalist in orientation, and again
reported on Communist as well as Fascist atrocities. And of these, several
campaigns, possibly the noblest, certainly the loneliest, was the one he
took up early in the 1960s on behalf of the persecuted libertarian leftists
and trade unionists of Cuba.

Who, after all, has given a damn during these last 30 years for the
anti-Communist left in Cuba? Fidel Castro came to power in 1959 and sent his
own allies among the libertarians and democrats to "the wall" or to jail or
into exile, more or less as in the Soviet Union--and in middle-class
progressive circles around the world, not many people noticed that Fidelista
firing squads were murdering the good guys along with the bad. The tiny,
aging networks of the anarcho-syndicalist movement in the United States did
notice. They happened to have underground contacts in Cuba. too, and these
contacts smuggled out the news. As far back as 1961, Dolgoff and his
comrades in New York--the hardy souls at the Libertarian League, the Freie
Arbeiter Stimme group of Jewish labor anarchists the Cultura Proletaria
group of antifascist Spanish exiles--began putting out the word. They raised
money for the prisoners in Cuban jails and for the ragged exiles fleeing to
Miami.

The campaign for Cuban labor radicals was not the ticket to left-wing
popularity in the 1960s and '70s. But what the hell, the rest of you
bastards can say anything you please. Sam Dolgoff wasn't in it for the
applause. One of the most beloved leaders of the New Left during the 1960s,
Dave Dellinger, who called himself a libertarian, returned from Cuba and
reported that socialism was alive and free in Castro's hands. And Dolgoff,
furious, organized a few Good Rebels (to use the Wobbly honorific) to stand
outside a meeting of Dellinger's and picket and pop off about the rights of
Cuban labor. Middle-class radicals looked at the old housepainter and called
him--him!--a reactionary. What a joke. Justice Is Dead in Cuba!

Yet--this was his achievement--in his old age, he did pick up a
following, at least in the anti authoritarian wing of the radical movement.
People knocked on Dolgoff s door and for a moment, maybe, given his
crustiness, they had to squint to get him into view. He answered my own
knock, back in my student days, wearing boxer shorts and a sleeveless
T-shirt and clutching a copy of the Yiddish organ of the Jewish Anarchist
Federation of Argentina in his hand. What a first impression! But the image
cleared. He was a man of perfect consistency. He was the spirit of freedom
in its left-wing form. He was the beating heart of the truest American
radicalism, the Wobbly ideal. And the young people and some of the downtown
avant-garde flocked to. him--even if, on cultural issues, he wasn't exactly
hip. Sam Dolgoff and Julian Beck of the Living Theater--there was an odd
couple! (But the avant-garde always did have an affinity for the IWW.)

He was a little rigid, truth be known. The greatest of the
anarcho-syndicalist theoreticians in this century were Rudolf Rocker,
Augustin Souchy, and Diego Abad de Santillan, who were, as Dolgoff happily
acknowledged, his own masters--all of whom came out, after the Second World
War, for democratic reform. They concluded that libertarian goals could fit
within a liberal social democracy. The Guangara Libertaria Miami Cubans and
the Freie Arbeirer Stimme circle in New York reached a similar conclusion.
But not Dolgoff. Purple haired punkers overran his own organizations and
conferences--and even so he clung to the syndicalism of 1910, unbudgeable,
except in lesser ways.

Still, the gist of those old principles, once he'd hammered them into
someone's head. had a way of staying put. In my own case. I reported for the
Voice this past year on Sandinista Nicaragua and on revolutionary
Czechoslovakia, and both times I came back with stories about small groups
of workers organizing to defend themselves and control their own product and
resist oppression. Nicaraguan shoemakers or Czech musicians--the themes were
Dolgoff an either way. He himself recognized my debt to him, once the
articles came out in print. For the gist was this: it doesn't matter whether
a society calls itself capitalist or communist, liberal or conservative. The
measure of progress in all modern societies is the degree to which working
people have the right and the opportunity to fight for their own
improvement.

Sam met a group of us over on St. Marks Place one time. The discussion
turned to questions of success and failure, a delicate issue. you might
suppose, with someone who had devoted himself to building an IWW that has
mostly disappeared. The wine flowed, he drank his fill, and made a little
statement. It summed up his life:

"You always need a left. And within the left, you need a left. And
within the left of the left, you need a left. And in that left, you need a
left. And that left is me!"
Salud, Good Rebel. No one ever fulfilled his own destiny more loyally
and bravely than you.

By Paul Berman: Village Voice, November 13, 1990.

http://www.anarchy-movement.org/anarchist.php?ID=8

Again: how many US citizens do not comply with custom regulations?
This is a non issue.

So you are telling me that you know Cubans that believe that the embargo is
the "source of all evils"?
Get real.
You might know Cubans that say so, but that just shows that they are in
doubt about your allegiance.
I have heard Cubans up to the highest levels saying it was BS.

> >> Other than that the embargo and travel ban it is
> >> wonderful.
> >>
> >> >And by the way:
> >> >Do you feel Cuban citizens should be prohibited from travelling
ANYWHERE?
> >>
> >> No.
> >
> >So why aren't you asking for an end to their "travel" ban.
> >Not feeling very concerned here?
> >
> >> >Your critcism of a travel ban is very "selective".
> >> >Why aren't you saying: listen the USA and Cuba should BOTH drop their
> >travel
> >> >restrictions?
>
>
> I am saying that. Cuba listens to me less than the US.

So "beat up on the little kid and run away from the big bully" is your
philosophy?
I hear a lot of "convenience" here and not very much of "principle".

> >> Well, I only have (marginal) input into US policy and not being a
> >> Cuban citizen, have none in Cuba.
> >
> >Maybe via the travel ban and the trade sanctions you also have a
"marginal
> >input" in to the Cuban policy.
> >Why cherish your "marginal input" in the US and reject the "marginal
input"
> >in Cuba.
> >Not consistent.
> >
> >In a consumer boycott those consumers ( and nations in trade boycotts)
that
> >take an certain amount of personal (national) "discomfort" in their
stride
> >as part of "being part of a process of change for the better".
> >What you are saying is: "I resent the few practical inconveniences I have
as
> >they far outweigh the suffering of the Cuban people as far as I am
> >concerned".
> >
> >That is a very selfish point of view. rather isolationist and not
extremely
> >ethical.
>
> I didn't say it was "extremely ethical," merely ethical. Again, your
> argument is that suffering of the Cuban people is somehow alleviated
> by the embargo.

Nope.
I say that an end to the suffering is dependent on a current continuation
of trade sanctions.
Very different.

> I think the opposite is true. And I am not saying
> inherent inefficiencies of a command economy do not shoulder some
> blame.

The understatement of the millenium.

> It probably shoulders the lion's share of the blame. But is
> your position that the embargo has NO effect on people's suffering?
> That makes my case for its inefficacy.

How about the internal embargo?
Get real.

The disaster is now "irrevocable"

Jul 4th 2002 | HAVANA
From The Economist print edition

A non-working system is enshrined forever

http://www.economist.com/World/la/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1217228

On the "internal embargo that is the root cause:

"Your Excellencies, ｝reak the internal embargo
against the Cuban people!"
You can read the complete letter by Armando Valladares (in Spanish),
by clicking: http://www.angelfire.com/fl/CubDest/

Beatriz Roque:

"If the embargo is lifted, there will be some changes, but not for the
people. Because we do not only have the American embargo, we also
suffer from an internal embargo. The Cubans themselves are being blocked
economically. So, I only can dream of buying a new American car. I
really would like to buy one; they're of good quality. Mine still has the
original engine."
http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/cub020517.html

Paya said

"If the embargo is lifted, there will be some changes, but not for
the people. Because we do not only have the American embargo, we also
suffer from an internal embargo. The Cubans themselves are being blocked
economically."
http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/cub020517.html

> Now, as to my minor inconveniences and selfishness. Travel is
> selfish. You enrich yourself, and others help you do it. You don't
> really need to be enriched.

False;
ravel enriches both parties if they respect each other.
I have made good friend all over.
I have Jewish friends an Palestinian friends.
The issue is respect.
And yes. You do need to be enriched.
I studied at the Thunderbird because I felt stronly about that issue.

> I don't need to go to Cuba.

No family. No pressing reason?
Get real: friends are a pressing reason if they are in need.

> I am just interested in that country.

The country or the people.
What do you want: a selfish experience or human interaction in respect?

>I
> could listen solely to the CANF and not see things with my eyes, and
> anyway, seeing Cuba for a shirt trip is purely superficial.

CANF (in it's extreme form) is part of the problem.
Not part of the solution.
There is a "third way".

> Obtaining
> personal observation is not really important.

False.
Going to a place with an open mind and respect for others is the most
important thing you can do.
As long as you act on it.

> I can meet some people there and develop life-long friendships, which
> I have done. But new friends are not really important.

Get your priorities straight.

> I love Cuban music. They don't have alot of it here where I live.
> Bush is refusing visas for Cuban performers to play here (probably
> along some ethical consrtuct with a strong aloy of political
> expediency). But then, music is not very important.

Ever heard of the internet?

> We can whittle away at personal freedoms all day long and DEMONSTRATE
> quite effectively that they are merely minor inconveniences.

Absense of freedom of speech and freedom of movement seem "major" to me.
Both my grandfathers were in Hitler's camps. One had earlier been in
Stalin's prisons. Quite ironic, no: jailed by two "opposing" dictators for
the same reason: not shutting up. Not giving in.

> No what would be better about the world had I nver gone to Cuba?

Maybe not.
But remember the old "superboy" comics about the kid who said that leaving
one bicycle on the library steps didn't matter much? "Superboy" put 100
bicycles on the steps and showed that if everyone did what the uncaring kid
did, nobody could get in to the library any more.

> Castro will rule Cuba till he drops dead, and nothing short of an Iwo
> Jima style invasion is going to change that.

True.
But he is in bad shape.
God and nature will help.
I am ready to help Cuba to get into shape.
Are you?

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:45:46 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f511abf...@news.supernews.com...

> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:48:49 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> >No hard feelings here.
> >But to scrap an imperfect policy (with some very good underlying
reasoning
> >if you do the economical analysis correctly) without a true alternative
is
> >not a solution either.
> >
> >I support the trade sanctions, but have sent by now over 1500 kg of
> >medicines to Cuba via tourists.
> >I support aid to the Cuban people via ngo's like MSF, but have seen how
the
> >regime abuses and diverts aid and therefore prefer it not to go via the
> >government (except the emergency aid like the WFP aid in Oriente).
> >I don't like the sex tourists and the "playa" tourist, but I support the
> >Cubans that rent out rooms to them.
> >There is no 100% solution here, but about anything is better than not
doing
> >anything.
> >
> >PL
>
>
> I don't support sex tourism and am not a beach person, although I went
> to Varadero on a day excursion with my group. I have since learned
> that Cubans can't go there. I don't like that, and I don't want to go
> back there.

I appreciate and respect that.

> I went to Cuba in January 2003 as part of a group with a treasury
> department license to study Cuban dance and music on a non-degree
> basis. I am going again in November. Bush has ended this sort of
> visit, claiming its abusive (presumably because we can have fun).

Nope.
Because the excuse isn't worth it.
Go via Canada or Mexico without excuse.

> My wife and I befriended several of the Cubans we came in contact
> with, especially one of the dance instructors, and we write her
> monthly. She has no Miami relatives to send her anything ever. She
> doesn't work in a hotel. She has become on the other hand like a
> little sister to me.

OK.
Let's set her up a w"ebpage to advertise her craft and knowlegde.
Lot's op people are searching for decent dance instructors.
Get real and act.

> I, a white guy from the South, have a negrita
> little sister now. Its a little ironic.

Nope;
Normal.

> I am old enough to
> remember the end of apartheid in Louisiana. It was not pretty. I
> hate to say, but my family supported apartheid, as did basically
> everyone I knew. Even today, you can sense as a white person that
> many blacks are not open to you. I had a completely different sense
> there. The blacks and the whites there seem to get along with each
> other better there than here, although my observation may be a little
> superficial.

Ever heard of the Cuba "pasjeswetten". Immigration to Havana has been
stopped.
Too many "darkies" from "Oriente" came overe.
In Cuba "Rosa Parks" would have died in jail.

> My visit there has enriched my life. No ifs and or buts about it.

Great.

> As far as sex tourism, I read before going there, that it was rampant
> and that you would be acosted even if you were with your wife. We had
> no such scenes. I saw a few hooker-looking types, but I can't say it
> was any more flagrant than my native New Orleans.

You travelled in group, didn't you?
I travelled alone. No minders.
I was approached over 150 times in 14 days.
My wife at firts didn't want to be seen in public with a foreigner when we
met as she was afraid to be branded a "jinetera".

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:47:43 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f51210a...@news.supernews.com...

Nope.
Belgium in the late 1950's was reconstructed and on the verge of a boom
(1960-70).
Cuba had more doctors per capita than Belgium.
But then: Cuba had a higher development level than Spain or Portugal.

PL

Stuart Grey

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 6:48:47 PM8/30/03

to

I was against the Cuba Embargo, but now that I
see you are also against it, I am convinced that
I must have been wrong about wanting to lift the
embargo.

AbelM...@webtv.net wrote:

< about his undying love for Fidel Castro and
his contempt and hate for the United States
of America >

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 7:02:43 PM8/30/03

to

Thanks for talking down to me despite my utmost level of respect when
talking to you. Ignorant people such as myself should be granted the
indulgence for our jejeunesse of thinking that Havana was Cuba.

My experience, however limited, is my experience. I can validly
state my experience.

>> >
>> >> BTW, how many Haitians get to go to Royal Caribbean's Labadee?
>> >
>> >Haiti is poor. So are most Cubans by the way.
>> >But any person with the dollars to pay himself a beer can do so.
>> >
>> >> I understand the concept of tourist apartheid, but it is not that
>unique
>> >> to Cuba.
>> >
>> >Mixing two things here: the poor - rich barrier and the true "tourist
>> >apartheid" of Cuba.
>> >Keep the both quite seperated please. Two different things all together.
>> >The fact that a father with his hungru daughters walks by a hotel and
>sees
>> >the tourists eat what his daughetr lacks happens in a lot of places.
>> >In very few countries a well dressed (European clothes) middle aged lady
>> >with two well dressed and well behaved kids are denied access to the
>patio
>> >bar of a middle class hotel where they want to eat an ice cream while
>they
>> >have the money to pay for them.
>> >That sets Cuba apart. Cubans are second class citizens in their own
>> >countries. They are the "kaffers" of Castro.
>
>No comments?

I don't like it. But the benefits of going there outweigh that.

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 7:15:18 PM8/30/03

to

Why are you not pressuring your government to make travel to Cuba
ILLEGAL, a feature you love about mine? You don't see any problem
with this contradicition?

It must be easy as a European to make value judgment about us and
support criminal sanctions for us for behavior which you engage in.

I admire your desire to use your travel dollars in a conscientiously
ethical fashion, but your views on the US embargo and the criminal
exposure to US citizens who engage in the same conduct as you is
hypocritical and UNETHICAL. Yours is not an ethical position. You
want me to go to jail for what you do with impunity. How does that
make you different from Fidel?

>
>> If so, why should YOU go and I can't.
>
>Fallacy.
>I can go using my Visa and getting my passport stamped.
>I can't use my American Express.
>I have to change flight in Dusseldorf, Paris, Amsterdam or Madrid.
>You can't use your visa.
>You can change flights in Montreal, Cancun, ...
>You can't get your passport stamped.
>
>That is it.
>
>
>> That
>> seems like travel apartheid to me.
>
>Nope.
>What stes us apart is that I can use my Visa card and get my passport
>stamped.
>Small difference.

I have to represent on penalty of 18 USC 1001 where I have been.
While you have taken leave to call me ignorant on more than one
occasion, I would like you to read the statute

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=1001

Do you realize that Americans who have done no other criminal acts
have done jail terms on 1001 violations? You can get 5 years.

I am an attorney. If I am caught I lose my livelihood. My wife is a
citizen of the Philippines. She could be deported. It could ruin
our lives. You are IGNORANT of this, right?

Who are you to talk about this as being minor when it doesn't even
apply to you?

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 7:19:25 PM8/30/03

to

sounds like your making some sort of slight

>> As far as sex tourism, I read before going there, that it was rampant
>> and that you would be acosted even if you were with your wife. We had
>> no such scenes. I saw a few hooker-looking types, but I can't say it
>> was any more flagrant than my native New Orleans.
>
>You travelled in group, didn't you?

I travelled in a group on many occasions but with my wife in the city
on many

>I travelled alone. No minders.
>I was approached over 150 times in 14 days.
>My wife at firts didn't want to be seen in public with a foreigner when we
>met as she was afraid to be branded a "jinetera".

I am married to a Filipina and my brother is married to a Japanese.
We have that same shit when we travel in Asia. Thats common and not
unique to Cuba.

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 7:15:11 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f512c47...@news.supernews.com...

You are welcome.
I just have a "chip on my shoulder" when people refer to Havana as Cuba.
It is my experience that Havana is a lot more "liberal" than Oriente.

>Ignorant people such as myself should be granted the
> indulgence for our jejeunesse of thinking that Havana was Cuba.

If you have experience from Oriente then please tell me: was it different
from Havana?

> My experience, however limited, is my experience. I can validly
> state my experience.

I agree.
State your experience.
But if your experience is limited to Havan and a "protocolo tour" in group,
then please say so.
Context is what matters.
I have been on "protocolo tours" to the best part of the "William Soler"
hospital in Havana.
Little did these idiots know that I had also been there in a vain attempt to
get asma medcines (Zarten / Zaditen) for my nephew.

> >> >
> >> >> BTW, how many Haitians get to go to Royal Caribbean's Labadee?
> >> >
> >> >Haiti is poor. So are most Cubans by the way.
> >> >But any person with the dollars to pay himself a beer can do so.
> >> >
> >> >> I understand the concept of tourist apartheid, but it is not that
> >unique
> >> >> to Cuba.
> >> >
> >> >Mixing two things here: the poor - rich barrier and the true "tourist
> >> >apartheid" of Cuba.
> >> >Keep the both quite seperated please. Two different things all
together.
> >> >The fact that a father with his hungru daughters walks by a hotel and
> >sees
> >> >the tourists eat what his daughetr lacks happens in a lot of places.
> >> >In very few countries a well dressed (European clothes) middle aged
lady
> >> >with two well dressed and well behaved kids are denied access to the
> >patio
> >> >bar of a middle class hotel where they want to eat an ice cream while
> >they
> >> >have the money to pay for them.
> >> >That sets Cuba apart. Cubans are second class citizens in their own
> >> >countries. They are the "kaffers" of Castro.
> >
> >No comments?
>
>
>
> I don't like it. But the benefits of going there outweigh that.

I agree that if you went there and have been allowed to absorb the truth the
trip was worth it.
I somehow have doubts that you caught on the true desperate situation.
Maybe you should assist at the birth of a child in the "clinica de los
angeles" in Santiago once to get a "true view".
I was there twice.

In short: I am getting ready to get antibiotics for my godson to send on
Monday.
He needs them as he has pneumonia in Santiago and there are none available.
We pay peso 100 ($4) a month so my relatives can have an "extension" in
Cuba.
That is a "lifeline".

I jus hope DHL is fast.

That sets us apart.
I live Cuba. You talk about it.
Get back to me when you live it.

PL

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 7:24:51 PM8/30/03

to

again, SPain and Portugal were not models of development

If you could say that 1959 Cuba was like 1959 France or Canada, I
think you would have something, but I think you're using some rabbit
trick

Besides, if 2003 US was like 1959 US it would be great.

It may seem like I am being snide. I agree that Castro's revolution
did damage to the Cuban economy. He also did good. But for sake of
argument, lets say he did no ggod at all. You know more than ignorant
me. Times from 1959 to 2003 have changed. It has for us, and not for
the better.

How many dollars of IMF help has Castro received compared to say,
Guatemala, a country renouned for her human rights record?

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 7:26:59 PM8/30/03

to

are you calling me an idiot on purpose or by accident?

You are interestong to talk to, but you should develop a sense of
manners.

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 7:27:04 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f51306e...@news.supernews.com...

Nope.
None at all.
I am a cynical SOB, but not in this case.

> >> As far as sex tourism, I read before going there, that it was rampant
> >> and that you would be acosted even if you were with your wife. We had
> >> no such scenes. I saw a few hooker-looking types, but I can't say it
> >> was any more flagrant than my native New Orleans.
> >
> >You travelled in group, didn't you?
>
>
> I travelled in a group on many occasions but with my wife in the city
> on many

Without speaking the language and without knowing people.
About the opposite of me.

> >I travelled alone. No minders.
> >I was approached over 150 times in 14 days.
> >My wife at firts didn't want to be seen in public with a foreigner when
we
> >met as she was afraid to be branded a "jinetera".
>
> I am married to a Filipina and my brother is married to a Japanese.
> We have that same shit when we travel in Asia. Thats common and not
> unique to Cuba.

I was in Japan (courtesy of NTT). I know the scene.
I used to go to Bangkok (I used to work for a US company with a plant
there).
Beyond the meat markets of Pat Pong road I have to say that Cuba was worse.
Less organized but more widespread.
The "in door" prostitution I saw (guided by a US expat that had lived there
since the late 1960's) was worse. But then I saw what most people will never
see.
In Manila just go to "Heckle and Jeckle". See what happens there and how a
bar can help a community.
http://www.heckleandjeckle.org/
Just say you know Paul, a good friend of Eric. The "ozzie" at the bar should
know.
With respect to Cuba: I went there when the dollar was worth 140 peso.
$1 was more then a month's wages.

PL

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 7:43:37 PM8/30/03

to

Wait...lets examine this pattern. My experiences in Cuba need to be
severely discounted yet your in asia are on par with mine . So tell
me....how many times were you and your middle-age asian spouse treated
casuually as a John-Whore relationship in Asia?

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 7:52:12 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f51311e...@news.supernews.com...

Still Cuba was the third developed nation in the Americas.
Beating areas in the South of the USA.

> If you could say that 1959 Cuba was like 1959 France or Canada, I
> think you would have something, but I think you're using some rabbit
> trick

No "rabbit".
Just facts.
Cuba beat rural Alabama in the late 1950's.
Even Castro admitted there was no hunger.

> Besides, if 2003 US was like 1959 US it would be great.

Tell that to a black guy in Selma Alabama. (Been there, ate there)

> It may seem like I am being snide. I agree that Castro's revolution
> did damage to the Cuban economy. He also did good.

Like what?
Spending SU subsidies (30% of GNP = health and education spending).
A moron can "achieve" that.

> But for sake of
> argument, lets say he did no ggod at all. You know more than ignorant
> me.

How humble thou art.

> Times from 1959 to 2003 have changed. It has for us, and not for
> the better.

So are you saying that the US livings standards have declined?
I will meat you at "K Paul's" over a "Cayun Martini" to debate that one.

>
> How many dollars of IMF help has Castro received compared to say,
> Guatemala, a country renouned for her human rights record?

Fallacy.
Subsidies can come from more than the IMF.
The correct comparison would bee: IMF to Guatemale versus SU to Cuba.

Can you indicate me one year that Guatemala recived 30% of GNP as IMF
subsidies?

Now have a look at the SU subsidies for Cuba.
Not the source, but the amount counts.

The Soviet Breakup

The latest chapter of Cuba's economic history began before the breakup of
the former Soviet Union in 1991. The size of the investment and trade
relationship began to decline as reforms proceeded there. Although it is
usually expressed in muted terms, there is some recognition in Cuba that the
"partnership" with the Soviets led to a highly concentrated industrial
structure that is over-specialized in a few commodities and highly fuel
inefficient. In particular, the sugar industry was operating at a level of
production that was unsustainable at market prices. According to independent
estimates, the real GDP fell by more than 40 percent between 1989 and 1993,
when the special trade and financing arrangements were terminated by the
Soviets.

http://www.infoexport.gc.ca/ie-en/DisplayDocument.jsp?did=214&gid=193#The%20Soviet%20Breakup

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:04:24 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f51360e...@news.supernews.com...

Well I don't speak Thai.
My wife isn't Thai.
I have only been twice to Thailand.
So I think I am better placed to speak on Cuba then Thailand.
I have been to Manila a couple of times.
But weren't we discussing Cuba?

> So tell
> me....how many times were you and your middle-age asian spouse treated
> casuually as a John-Whore relationship in Asia?

Never.
We aren't middle aged yet.
I never travelled with my wife to Asia.
She would also be very clearly recognizable as non-Asian.

But aks me the same question about non-middle-aged couples in Cuba and I can
tell you some stories.
One ended with a written apology from the VP of Melia after a two year
boycott.

The best one:
"in 2002 I rented a 3 bedroom apartment in the "Villa Panamericana" near
Havana. They at first would not allow my mother in law (Cuban female) to
stay in the same apartment with me as "we weren't married". The fact that I
could hardly be marries to my wife and mother-in-law at the same time
without being a warped Muslim (no insult intended) did escape the girl at
the reception."

PL

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:11:35 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f51328c...@news.supernews.com...

Not calling you an idiot.
Just the protocolo team that took me to the "dollar" rooms of William Soler
and wanted me to believe that the average Cuban had access to them as well.
My point was (and is) that if you believe what the "protocolo" tour shows
you is reality for the average Cuban then you are an idiot. You seem to have
a "healthy" sense of scepticism.

> You are interestong to talk to, but you should develop a sense of
> manners.

Maybe you should develop a set of shorter and less sensitive toes.

PL

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:13:07 PM8/30/03

to

Stuart,
It amazes me what makes some people see the light.
Lillian
Petition: http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

-----------------------------------

"Stuart Grey" <us...@example.net> wrote in message
news:3F512B19...@example.net...

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:16:13 PM8/30/03

to

No, they're not linked to Usama. They do their own thing. Check the link
about terrorism at the end of the petition page.
Petition: http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

Lillian
http://xld.com/public/cuba/cuba.htm

-------------------------

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f5126e5...@news.supernews.com...

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:28:13 PM8/30/03

to

Maybe you should not use words like "ignorant."

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:30:35 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f511abf...@news.supernews.com...
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:48:49 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> >No hard feelings here.
> >But to scrap an imperfect policy (with some very good underlying
reasoning
> >if you do the economical analysis correctly) without a true alternative
is
> >not a solution either.
> >
> >I support the trade sanctions, but have sent by now over 1500 kg of
> >medicines to Cuba via tourists.
> >I support aid to the Cuban people via ngo's like MSF, but have seen how
the
> >regime abuses and diverts aid and therefore prefer it not to go via the
> >government (except the emergency aid like the WFP aid in Oriente).
> >I don't like the sex tourists and the "playa" tourist, but I support the
> >Cubans that rent out rooms to them.
> >There is no 100% solution here, but about anything is better than not
doing
> >anything.
> >
> >PL
>

Here's some info about what happens to the medicines that are sent to Cuba.
Castro donates them to another country:
http://xld.com/public/cuba/PIETRI/medicinas.htm

Lillian
http://xld.com/public/cuba/cuba.htm

>
> I don't support sex tourism and am not a beach person, although I went
> to Varadero on a day excursion with my group. I have since learned
> that Cubans can't go there. I don't like that, and I don't want to go
> back there.
>
>

> I went to Cuba in January 2003 as part of a group with a treasury
> department license to study Cuban dance and music on a non-degree
> basis. I am going again in November. Bush has ended this sort of
> visit, claiming its abusive (presumably because we can have fun).
>

> My wife and I befriended several of the Cubans we came in contact
> with, especially one of the dance instructors, and we write her
> monthly. She has no Miami relatives to send her anything ever. She
> doesn't work in a hotel. She has become on the other hand like a

> little sister to me. I, a white guy from the South, have a negrita
> little sister now. Its a little ironic. I am old enough to

> remember the end of apartheid in Louisiana. It was not pretty. I
> hate to say, but my family supported apartheid, as did basically
> everyone I knew. Even today, you can sense as a white person that
> many blacks are not open to you. I had a completely different sense
> there. The blacks and the whites there seem to get along with each
> other better there than here, although my observation may be a little
> superficial.

this is true. We always did have better race relations than South USA.

>
> My visit there has enriched my life. No ifs and or buts about it.
>

This is not a good reason to finance terrorism.

> As far as sex tourism, I read before going there, that it was rampant
> and that you would be acosted even if you were with your wife. We had
> no such scenes. I saw a few hooker-looking types, but I can't say it
> was any more flagrant than my native New Orleans.
>

> I really enjoyed these exchanges with you. You know about your
> subject, although not everything.
>
> >

> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:38:12 PM8/30/03

to

it lookd like my friend PL has failed to anwer the 18 USC 1001 issue.
Why is that?

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:34:01 PM8/30/03

to

You guys, travel is such a puny issue! We're dealing with stopping
financing terrorism!

Lillian
petition: http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

----------------------------------

"George Grapman" <sfge...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3F50B566...@NOSPAMpacbell.net...

>
>
> Bobito wrote:
>
> > Americans should be able to travel freely to Cuba when Cubans are able
to
> > travel freely to America
>

> Are you opposed to Americans visiting China?
> --
> To reply via e-mail please delete "NOSPAM" from address.
>
>

pedro martori

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:35:36 PM8/30/03

to

Sábado, 30 de agosto del 2003

Prisionero de conciencia en huelga de hambre pide asistencia médica

Desde Placetas, Villa Clara, Cuba, Bertha Antúnez Pernet del Movimiento
Nacional de Resistencia Cívica Pedro Luis Boitel hace un llamado urgente en
favor de su hermano, el prisionero de conciencia Jorge Luis García Pérez
"Antúnez", que lleva seis días en huelga de hambre pidiendo se le de
atención médica. García Pérez "Antúnez" sufre de un tumor en uno de sus
pulmones.

Bertha Antúnez denuncia que las autoridades de la prisión de Ariza en
Cienfuegos tienen a su hermano en una celda tapiada, "con mucho frío y
humedad."

Jorge Luis García Pérez "Antúnez" lleva cumpliendo 13 años, cinco meses de
cárcel por "propaganda enemiga." "desde el 15 de marzo de 1990 esta preso"
comenta su hermana.

Agenda cuba se une a este llamado a que las autoridades penitenciarias se
ocupen de darle a este preso la atención médica que necesita.

AGENDA:CUBA
7815 w. Flagler street #220, miami, fl. 33144
tel.: 305-262-2727
fax: 305-828-3783
email: agend...@aol.com

NetforCuba International
http://www.netforcuba.org

CAMPAÑA CUBANA POR LA LIBERTAD DE PRISIONEROS DE CONCIENCIA
http://www.payolibre.com/presos.htm

Acuérdate de los presos como si tú también lo estuviers"

Hebreos 13-3

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

"Llamamiento de Todos Unidos desde el centro de Cuba"

El Todos Unidos en la región central del país, dirige un llamado a la
disidencia interna, para que con sus rubricas expresen el desacuerdo con la
sucia maniobra del gobierno cubano, desatada contra Elizardo Sánchez Santa
Cruz , presidente de la Comisión de Derechos Humanos y Reconciliación
Nacional, al publicar el libro "El Camaján" de sobrado sentido peyorativo.

Es bueno recordar la triste historia de miles de opositores al régimen en
estos 44 años, quienes han sido encarcelados, llevados al paredón, vejados,
chantajeados, etc., como método de sustentación del poder totalitario.

Este año, la diatriba del régimen se a intensificado, mostrando a la opinión
publica nacional e internacional varios capítulos represivos que incluyen el
allanamiento de viviendas, el encarcelamiento de 75 opositores y periodistas
independientes con una condena totalizada que rebasa la cifra de 1450 años
de presidio -el fusilamiento de 3 jóvenes de la raza negra por el simple
delito de intentar llegar a tierras de libertad, la publicación del libro
"Los Disidentes" y esta ultima versión periodística, que con records
públicos torcidos, hacen una sumatoria de agravios, como si fuera el segundo
capitulo de la ola represiva desatada en el mes de marzo.

Presentado como el "empresario de la disidencia" o sencillamente el
"Camaján", se trata de destruir moralmente y por sobre todas las cosas, la
imagen internacional del líder opositor, que no ha sido quemado ni
protegido, sino triturado y expuesto al escándalo público a través de este
libro escrito a "vapor" -extiéndase a "millón"- como parte de la guerra
desatada contra alguien que trabaja incansablemente a favor de los presos
políticos, actividad mirada con recelos por el gobierno en La Habana.

Hermanos: ahora cuando los países del mundo levantan su voz para sancionar
al dictador y la mal llamada revolución cubana que esta en su fase final,
como afirma el propio Elizardo, nosotros como nunca antes debemos estar
unidos, tal como la planteara Vladimiro Roca recientemente: "En Cuba estamos
jugando como en equipo de pelota y no le tenemos miedo al futuro". Esta
nueva acción contra los enemigos políticos del régimen, pretende fusilar
moralmente a nuestros líderes y forma parte del terrorismo de reputación:
como método ultrasensible empleado por la policía de pensamiento para
desacreditarnos y constituye una repetición cíclica de diferentes métodos
con un mismo fin. Es sencillamente un teatro dirigido por un actor sin
escrúpulos, copiador de los métodos más crueles de Alejandro Magno, Fouché,
Stalin o Franco.

No hagamos caso a las calumnias y observemos detenidamente la trayectoria de
Elizardo Sánchez Santa Cruz avalada por varios años de presidio y más de 30
años de lucha no violenta, contra el régimen que subyuga al pueblo cubano;
sirva además este documento de desagravio, a nombre de sus hermanos de lucha
e ideas.

Mario Osvaldo Ruiz Fleites

Miembro permanente del grupo de Relataría de Todos Unidos y su representante
en la Región Central.

CAMPAÑA CUBANA POR LA LIBERTAD DE PRISIONEROS DE CONCIENCIA

http://www.payolibre.com/presos.htm

"Acuérdate de los presos como si tú también lo estuvieras"

Hebreos 13-3

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> a écrit dans le message de news:

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:39:59 PM8/30/03

to

What do you suppose the solution would be?

Certainly, you are aware of the Ladies of Havana episode?

Lillian
Ladies of Havana episode: http://xld.com/public/cuba/STARS/Usind.htm

------------------------------

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:46:02 PM8/30/03

to

we thank you for your misguided passion on this subject

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:45:21 PM8/30/03

to

"PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote in message

news:ZR%3b.8759$J_6.3...@phobos.telenet-ops.be...

>
> <Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

> news:3f507deb.2067888250@news.supernews.com...

> > On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:21:28 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

> > >news:3f507349.2065166515@news.supernews.com...

> > >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:29:59 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >Do you believe in dictatorships?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Do you believe in the right to travel to China?
> > >>
> > >

> > >See my other post.
> > >
> > >Question:
> > > do you believe in the old ship rule: "women and children first" in
> > >abandoning ship?
> > >That is discrimination in favor of the most vulnerable.
> > >I agree with that.
> > >Do you or are you unwilling to make any concessions on your rights?
> > >
> > >PL
> > >
> > >
> > you analogy is ....ahem....a little bit strained
>
> OK, a bit extreme in it's wording. BUt the core issue: accepting
> restrictions to favor the rights of others (right to life here I admit) is
> similar.
>
> >
> > there is no life-or-death emergency

>
> 14% of Cubans is undernourished.
> The Cuban health system is failing.
> There is an emergency.
>

> > and there is no benefit to anyone as a result of my concession of
> > rights
>
> false. By denying the Cuban elite access to the US markets (which they

> desperately want) you are giving the next generation of leadres (Castro

> won't budge) an incentive to change instead of giving them a reason to
hold
> on to the system of Human rights abuses.
>

I say: before free trade, freedom for political prisoners and free
elections. If he never grants these freedoms, then we should never trade.
Simple.

Lillian
petition: http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

>
> > Don't you see that the embargo actually gives Fidel Castro political
> > cover for his government's shortcomings?
>
> Most Cubans don't believe that any more by the way.
> The trade sanctions (and the EU aid sanctions) provide an incentive for
> change.
>
> But on the central issue: do you accept a (very small) limitation of your
> rights to support the rights of others.
>

> PL
>
>

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:47:19 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
news:3f507deb.2067888250@news.supernews.com...
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:21:28 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> >
> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
> >news:3f507349.2065166515@news.supernews.com...
> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:29:59 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Do you believe in dictatorships?
> >>
> >>
> >> Do you believe in the right to travel to China?
> >>
> >
> >See my other post.
> >
> >Question:
> > do you believe in the old ship rule: "women and children first" in
> >abandoning ship?
> >That is discrimination in favor of the most vulnerable.
> >I agree with that.
> >Do you or are you unwilling to make any concessions on your rights?
> >
> >PL
> >
> >
> you analogy is ....ahem....a little bit strained
>
>

> there is no life-or-death emergency
>

> and there is no benefit to anyone as a result of my concession of
> rights
>
>

> Don't you see that the embargo actually gives Fidel Castro political
> cover for his government's shortcomings?

The embargo gives us leverage.

Lillian
http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

Rainer Wolfcastle

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:47:50 PM8/30/03

to

Limbaugh Fart Detector wrote in message news:<3f512049...@news.supernews.com>...
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:33:20 GMT, "observer" <obse...@privacy.nu>

> wrote:
>
> >
> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

> >news:3f507b86.2067274937@news.supernews.com...
> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:15:40 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't like the idea of Cubans not being allowed in hotel rooms,

> >> although they are in fact allowed in public areas of hotels. If one

> >> choses to boycott Cuba for this reason, that is a rational choice.

> >> But it should not be government policy. I actually have Cuban friends
> >> there. I am not a Cuban, nor do I speak Spanish all that well. I

> >> also communicate with people there regularly. Who benefits from my

> >> not being able to go there? And the idea that you can go to Cuba is

> >> hogwash. There are no scheduled flights and you have the burden of
> >> proving that you didn't spend a dime there. You call that freedom to
> >> travel there?
> >>

> >> I answered your question. You only vaguely answered mine. Should
> >> American citizens be prohibited from traveling to China?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>

> >A young lady I know visited Cuba. The Cuban relatives she came to visit
> >were not allowed in the lobby of the hotel or any of the rooms.
> >
> >
> my pesonal experience was different

I am sure you enjoyed Cuba. Cuba is popular with pedophiles and
perverts from the West. The local paper had a story about a defrocked
homosexual priest who moved to Havana. He essentially went their to
get young boys. Eventually the locals got sick of being exploited and
they did the world a favor and murdered him.

I also recall Juminy Carter over there about a year ago and he was
licking Castro's boots as usual. Not too long after Carter left -
Catsro threw a bunch of journalists in jail.

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:50:24 PM8/30/03

to

Cuba holds up its end real well. See the details about the terrorism:
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/dailybreeze/379358151.html?MAC=f3f763fdd8925096d9121e04b9426724&did=379358151&FMT=FT&FMTS=FT&PMID=&printformat=&desc=Castro%27s+new+empire-building+threatens+the+war+on+terrorism

Lillian
http://xld.com/public/cuba/cuba.htm

"Robert" <wayne_s...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aF_3b.1744$KX....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...

>
> "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote in message

> news:r8_3b.1708$Vz5.39...@hestia.telenet-ops.be...

> > Do you believe in dictatorships?
> >

> > PL
> >
> \
>
> Why aren't we embargoing China, a much worse offender than Cuba
>
>

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:58:25 PM8/30/03

to

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:46:02 GMT, Limbaugh Fart Detector wrote:

>we thank you for your misguided passion on this subject
>
>

we thank you for your guided passion on this subject

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 8:58:02 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f51311e...@news.supernews.com...

I don't know, but judging from his debt, why would any US companies want to
trade with Castro? The only way they could get paid is with tax breaks and
subsidies. Maybe they're just after the US taxpayers again?
Castro's debt details: http://xld.com/public/cuba/PIETRI/debt.htm

Lillian
http://xld.com/public/cuba/cuba.htm

>

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 9:06:44 PM8/30/03

to

On 30 Aug 2003 17:47:50 -0700, franzschw...@yahoo.dk (Rainer
Wolfcastle) wrote:

I am sure you are an idiot who talks in a propaganda style at
variance with the truth (i.e., "a lie" to most of us)

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 9:09:01 PM8/30/03

to

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:22:18 -0500, "Lillian Martinez" <l...@xld.com>
wrote:

>That's not all. Cuban citizens are also not allowed to go fishing at sea,
>among other things. The government would lose control over them if they
>could feed themselves freely.
>
Thats not all. Americans cannot even visit CUba unless they spend no
money at all during their stay.

They are not allowed to eat unless Cubans give them food.

>Lillian
>Petition to stop financing terrorism:
>http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

>
>
>
>
>"observer" <obse...@privacy.nu> wrote in message

>news:AK84b.1307$gt1.1...@twister.socal.rr.com...

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 9:11:01 PM8/30/03

to

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:58:02 -0500, "Lillian Martinez" <l...@xld.com>
wrote:

well, my friend, the question was whether the Cuban government should
be able to do certain things, an d youjumped over to say they can't fo
ahything

observer

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 9:33:44 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f514989...@news.supernews.com...

Sounds to me that the Fart Smeller is a fan of Castro and his brutal
dictatorship.

observer

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 9:35:40 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f507deb.2067888250@news.supernews.com...

> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:21:28 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> >
> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

> >news:3f507349.2065166515@news.supernews.com...
> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:29:59 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >>

> >> >Do you believe in dictatorships?
> >>
> >>

> >> Do you believe in the right to travel to China?
> >>
> >
> >See my other post.
> >
> >Question:
> > do you believe in the old ship rule: "women and children first" in
> >abandoning ship?
> >That is discrimination in favor of the most vulnerable.
> >I agree with that.
> >Do you or are you unwilling to make any concessions on your rights?
> >
> >PL
> >
> >
> you analogy is ....ahem....a little bit strained
>
>
> there is no life-or-death emergency
>
> and there is no benefit to anyone as a result of my concession of
> rights
>
>
> Don't you see that the embargo actually gives Fidel Castro political
> cover for his government's shortcomings?

How does it do that?

observer

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 9:38:48 PM8/30/03

to

"Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:3F510FE4...@localnet.com...
> PL wrote:

> > <Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote:
>
> > 14% of Cubans is undernourished.
> > The Cuban health system is failing.
> > There is an emergency.
>

> Cuba has a far better health system than
> anywhere else in Latin America, despite
> not being allowed to imports medicines from
> the US. There are a surprising number of
> undernourished people right here in the US.

Where do you live, San Fransico?

>
> >>and there is no benefit to anyone as a result of my concession of
> >>rights
> >

> > false. By denying the Cuban elite access to the US markets (which they
> > desperately want) you are giving the next generation of leadres (Castro
> > won't budge) an incentive to change instead of giving them a reason to
hold
> > on to the system of Human rights abuses.
>

> To change into what? Another Dominican Republic?

>
> >>Don't you see that the embargo actually gives Fidel Castro political
> >>cover for his government's shortcomings?
> >

> > Most Cubans don't believe that any more by the way.
> > The trade sanctions (and the EU aid sanctions) provide an incentive for
> > change.
> >
> > But on the central issue: do you accept a (very small) limitation of
your
> > rights to support the rights of others.
>

> You're being totally hypocritical. The fact that you own a
> computer proves that you don't forego buying items made by
> exploited laborers. Your wardrobe would, of necessity, be
> very limited also.
>
> --Jeff
>
> --
> "an enormous Proportion of Property vested in
> a few Individuals is dangerous to the Rights,
> and destructive of the Common Happiness, of
> Mankind; and therefore every free State hath
> a Right by its Laws to discourage the Possession
> of such Property."
> Ben Franklin
>
> "To delight in war is a merit in the soldier,
> a dangerous quality in the captain, and a
> positive crime in the statesman."
> George Santayana
>
> "Bring them on."
> George W. Bush
>

observer

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 9:45:09 PM8/30/03

to

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f50735f.2065188687@news.supernews.com...

> I agree 1000%! I was fortunate enough to travel legally to Cuba in
> January and again in November before the AWOL Bush new draconian
> regulations kick in in January 2004.
>
> Cuba is a beautiful country and the people are very kind and love
> Americans.

How do they feel about Castro and the brutal dictatorship?

Jeffrey Turner

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 9:54:45 PM8/30/03

to

PL wrote:
> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
> news:3F510FE4...@localnet.com...
>
>>PL wrote:
>>
>>><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote:
>>
>>>14% of Cubans is undernourished.
>>>The Cuban health system is failing.
>>>There is an emergency.
>>
>>Cuba has a far better health system than
>>anywhere else in Latin America, despite
>>not being allowed to imports medicines from
>>the US. There are a surprising number of
>>undernourished people right here in the US.
>>

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/7714

The original article was from CubaNet, which gets its funding from
USAID and the National Endowment for Democracy. Two truly unbiased
sources within the federal bureaucracy.

>
> But then if you believe Castro's "statistics" there are no prblems.
> But then how luch confidence can one have in these "statistics"?
>
>
> Pax Christi.

Couldn't even get to the web link specified.

> Source : http://www.antenna.nl/paxchristi/cubaenpo.html
>
>
> (ADS) "AIDS in Cuba"
>
> Lancet (08/26/89) Vol. 2, No. 8661, P. 512
> Anderson, William H.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> Abstract: William Anderson of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston writes that
> he believes Cuba has not been candid in its reporting of HIV infection and
> AIDS cases to the World Health Organization. Anderson writes that Cuba's
> policy of mandatory universal testing and quarantine of HIV-positive
> individuals suggest a major health problem. However, Cuba claims to have a
> low level of seroprevalence. Anderson writes that previous studies and
> demographic data contradict these claims and suggests that the Cuban program
> of testing and quarantine is unreliable. A study of seroprevalence in Cuban
> refugees in 1980 indicates a 45-fold greater seroprevalence than the recent
> study. The discrepancy is not explained by selection bias because HIV was
> much less common then. Cuba has a population of 10.2 million, 12 percent of
> whom are men under 30 who have spent extensive periods in central Africa,
> and an increasing incidence of syphilis and gonorrhoea. These factors point
> to a larger HIV prevalence than Cuba reports, according to Anderson.

So What? Cuba MAY have a higher than reported prevalence of HIV
infection because they have actually sent people to help Africans.
Oooooooooooh!

> Copyright (c) 1989 - Information, Inc., Bethesda, MD. This information is
> provided by the Center for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC), National AIDS
> Clearinghouse as a public service. Noncommercial reproduction encouraged.

> Too crude a lie here "jeff".

You have more "crude" lies from CubaNet. According to my National
Geographic Atlas of ten years ago, the life expectancy in Cuba is
the same as in the US.

>>>>and there is no benefit to anyone as a result of my concession of
>>>>rights
>>>
>>>false. By denying the Cuban elite access to the US markets (which they

>>>desperately want) you are giving the next generation of leaders (Castro

>>>won't budge) an incentive to change instead of giving them a reason to
>>
> hold
>
>>>on to the system of Human rights abuses.
>>
>>To change into what? Another Dominican Republic?
>

> Nope.
> Cuba was the third developed nation in the Americas.
> Now it is a third world nation.
> Cuba has the right mix to take up it's place as a "above average" nation.

Baloney. Cuba was another dictatorship run by the mob for
the benefit of a few elite Cubans and Gringos.

>>>>Don't you see that the embargo actually gives Fidel Castro political
>>>>cover for his government's shortcomings?
>>>
>>>Most Cubans don't believe that any more by the way.
>>>The trade sanctions (and the EU aid sanctions) provide an incentive for
>>>change.
>>>
>>>But on the central issue: do you accept a (very small) limitation of
>>> your
>>>rights to support the rights of others.
>>
>>You're being totally hypocritical.
>

> Nope.

>
>
>>The fact that you own a
>>computer proves that you don't forego buying items made by
>>exploited laborers.
>
>

> Well it is pretty hard to post all my purchase vouchers on the web.
> Let's just say that you seem to have a political reason to doubt what I say.
> Again: you have no proof of the contrary.
> You are just "spouting innuendo" in a (badly hidden) personal attack.

>
>
>> Your wardrobe would, of necessity, be
>>very limited also.
>
>

> Italy, France and Belgium make great clothes.
> You can get great T-shirts (love the Castro one) from
> http://www.crazyshirts.com
> They are based in Hawaii.
> I don't need Nike's (better value for money in other places).
> I do have some Raplh Lauren though.
> I can go well dressed and be "ethical".
>
> You are just a hypocrite.
>
> Get real and get informed.

I'm informed. Your "information" is all terribly biased.

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 9:55:36 PM8/30/03

to

You seem to be able to reduce a major problem (terrorism, taxpayer
financing) to an unimportant issue like travelling for pleasure.

Lillian
petition: http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f514ad8...@news.supernews.com...

Jeffrey Turner

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 9:56:03 PM8/30/03

to

Lillian Martinez wrote:

> I say: before free trade, freedom for political prisoners and free
> elections. If he never grants these freedoms, then we should never trade.
> Simple.

What a double standard, cf. China.

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 9:58:09 PM8/30/03

to

Yeah....
Some people like to live in a fantasy world.

Lillian
petition: http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

"observer" <obse...@privacy.nu> wrote in message

news:Yfc4b.2195$gt1.1...@twister.socal.rr.com...

pedro martori

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 10:01:28 PM8/30/03

to

You are financing terrorism when you travel there. For more data on this,
see the terrorism link at the end of the petition page:
http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm

Lillian
http://xld.com/public/cuba/cuba.htm

"Bobito" <bot...@legover.land> wrote in message
news:bir5lq$380$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> i believe anyone should be allowed to travel anywhere.
>
> I've been to Cuba and seen for myself the conditions people live in. If,
as
> an American you want to go to China, you are free to go there.
>
> Can Cubans go to China, or anywhere else for that matter???
>

"George Grapman" <sfge...@NOSPAMpacbell.net> a écrit dans le message de
news: 3F50B566...@NOSPAMpacbell.net...

>
>
> Bobito wrote:
>
> > Americans should be able to travel freely to Cuba when Cubans are able
to
> > travel freely to America
>

Jeffrey Turner

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 10:16:46 PM8/30/03

to

Limbaugh wrote:

> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:15:11 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>> Limbaugh wrote:

>>>Thanks for talking down to me despite my utmost level of respect when
>>>talking to you.
>>
>>You are welcome.

I thought this was a beautiful example. He may speak Spanish but it
doesn't seem that English is one he's fluent in.

>>I just have a "chip on my shoulder" when people refer to Havana as Cuba.
>>It is my experience that Havana is a lot more "liberal" than Oriente.
>>
>>
>>>Ignorant people such as myself should be granted the
>>>indulgence for our jejeunesse of thinking that Havana was Cuba.
>>
>>If you have experience from Oriente then please tell me: was it different
>
>>from Havana?
>
>>>My experience, however limited, is my experience. I can validly
>>>state my experience.
>>
>>I agree.
>>State your experience.
>>But if your experience is limited to Havan and a "protocolo tour" in group,
>>then please say so.
>>Context is what matters.
>>I have been on "protocolo tours" to the best part of the "William Soler"
>>hospital in Havana.
>>Little did these idiots know that I had also been there in a vain attempt to
>>get asma medcines (Zarten / Zaditen) for my nephew.
>
> are you calling me an idiot on purpose or by accident?
>

> You are interestong to talk to, but you should develop a sense of
> manners.

He seems to be a total ignoramus. His concerns about getting into
various hotels don't really seem to me to be serious concerns for
the bulk of the population anywhere in the world. After that, he
just starts quoting propaganda. It's easy to see from his shopping
list that his class interests aren't with the masses.

He keeps assuming that Cuba would be another Sweden and unlike
all the other countries of Latin America. Based on...?

dr_fuji_kamekazi

unread,

Aug 30, 2003, 11:19:56 PM8/30/03

to

Limbaugh Fart Detector wrote in message news:<3f512049...@news.supernews.com>...
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:33:20 GMT, "observer" <obse...@privacy.nu>
> wrote:
>
> >
> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
> >news:3f507b86.2067274937@news.supernews.com...
> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:15:40 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't like the idea of Cubans not being allowed in hotel rooms,
> >> although they are in fact allowed in public areas of hotels. If one
> >> choses to boycott Cuba for this reason, that is a rational choice.
> >> But it should not be government policy. I actually have Cuban friends
> >> there. I am not a Cuban, nor do I speak Spanish all that well. I
> >> also communicate with people there regularly. Who benefits from my
> >> not being able to go there? And the idea that you can go to Cuba is
> >> hogwash. There are no scheduled flights and you have the burden of
> >> proving that you didn't spend a dime there. You call that freedom to
> >> travel there?
> >>
> >> I answered your question. You only vaguely answered mine. Should
> >> American citizens be prohibited from traveling to China?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >A young lady I know visited Cuba. The Cuban relatives she came to visit
> >were not allowed in the lobby of the hotel or any of the rooms.
> >
> >
> my pesonal experience was different

As you are obviously a liberal Democrat and Communist enthusiast, I do not
find your statement at all unusual. Send Charlie Rangle money he is also
an enthusiastic supporter of Fidel Castro and the enlightened Communism he
has brought to the Cuban people who are his slaves and wards.

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 3:04:03 AM8/31/03

to

On 30 Aug 2003 20:19:56 -0700, dr_...@hotmail.com (dr_fuji_kamekazi)
wrote:

You are a fool who takes issue with those who recount from personal
experience, when it doesn't fit your pre-conceived notions.

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 3:34:31 AM8/31/03

to

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:39:59 -0500, "Lillian Martinez" <l...@xld.com>
wrote:

>What do you suppose the solution would be?

>
>Certainly, you are aware of the Ladies of Havana episode?
>
>Lillian
>Ladies of Havana episode: http://xld.com/public/cuba/STARS/Usind.htm
>

I suspect that you won't like my idea of a solution.

The historical problem that Cuba faces is of a type that resolves
itself in the long run. Societies that go crazy eventually come back
around. The United States does not have the power to fix Cuba, absent
an Iraq style invasion.

Castro won't be around in a few years. I am 44 now. The embargo has
lasted almost my whole life. When do we know its working? When I am
130 years old?

limbaugh_fart_detector

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 3:36:25 AM8/31/03

to

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 20:58:09 -0500, "Lillian Martinez" <l...@xld.com>
wrote:

>Yeah....

>Some people like to live in a fantasy world.
>

Did you see what that moron wrote about me? Who are YOU to agree with
him. We can disagree, but you are NOT going to personally attack me,
ok?

ahlahan

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 4:06:22 AM8/31/03

to

His manners are tampered by the pseudo-leftists who know NOTHING about Cuba
but profess absolute understating of the prison that Cuba is.
Dont speak of my troubles till you walk a mile in my shoes. It only makes
you sound ignorant arrogant and stupid.

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f51328c...@news.supernews.com...

> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:15:11 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> >
> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

> >news:3f512c47...@news.supernews.com...

> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:32:32 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

> >> >news:3f5110b5...@news.supernews.com...

> >> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:44:00 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

> >> >> >news:3f50abba.2079614828@news.supernews.com...

> >> >> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:29:22 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
> >> >> >> >news:3f507b86.2067274937@news.supernews.com...
> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:15:40 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I don't like the idea of Cubans not being allowed in hotel
rooms,
> >> >> >> >> although they are in fact allowed in public areas of hotels.
> >> >> >> >

> >> >> >> >Get real.
> >> >> >> >You won't make it in to the lobby of a place like the Melia
Cohiba.
> >> >> >> >But this is the "petty" part of the Cuban apartheid. The
> >preferential
> >> >> >> >treatment in medical assistance, transport, ...
> >> >> >> >It never ends.
> >> >> >> >You also gloss over the human rights abuses.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Get real. You can make it into the lobby of Novotel Miramar
which
> >is
> >> >> >> every but as good as Meilia Cohiba.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Get real.
> >> >> >You can't make on to the terrace bar (and lobby) of the Casa Granda
in
> >> >> >Santiago which is a lot worse.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Also...Cubans can enter the lobby of the Hotel Ambos Mundos in
Havana.
> >> >> I have personal experience in both these places, and we had no
> >> >> problem. That is not to say that I think you are wrong on the
> >> >> tourist-apartheid issue.
> >> >
> >> >Again you show your ignorance about Cuba.
> >> >Havan isn't Cuba.
> >> >Oriente is a lot worse than Havana.
> >> >I had a friend of mine molested in the lobby of the "Havana libre".
> >> >A controller of a Cuban mixed company was harrased in the Melia
Cohiba.
> >> >My mother in law wasn't (at first) allowed to stay in the three
bedroom
> >> >appartment I rented in the "Villa Panamericana"
> >> >Get real.
> >> >Your experience is very limited.
> >> >Friends of mine raised a scandal to allow my sister in law in to the
"san
> >> >juan" dump in Havana.

> >> >
> >>
> >> Thanks for talking down to me despite my utmost level of respect when
> >> talking to you.
> >
> >You are welcome.

> >I just have a "chip on my shoulder" when people refer to Havana as Cuba.
> >It is my experience that Havana is a lot more "liberal" than Oriente.
> >
> >>Ignorant people such as myself should be granted the
> >> indulgence for our jejeunesse of thinking that Havana was Cuba.
> >
> >If you have experience from Oriente then please tell me: was it different
> >from Havana?
> >
> >> My experience, however limited, is my experience. I can validly
> >> state my experience.
> >
> >I agree.
> >State your experience.
> >But if your experience is limited to Havan and a "protocolo tour" in
group,
> >then please say so.
> >Context is what matters.
> >I have been on "protocolo tours" to the best part of the "William Soler"
> >hospital in Havana.
> >Little did these idiots know that I had also been there in a vain attempt
to
> >get asma medcines (Zarten / Zaditen) for my nephew.
>
>
>
> are you calling me an idiot on purpose or by accident?
>
> You are interestong to talk to, but you should develop a sense of
> manners.
>
>
> >
> >> >> >

> >> >> >> BTW, how many Haitians get to go to Royal Caribbean's Labadee?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Haiti is poor. So are most Cubans by the way.
> >> >> >But any person with the dollars to pay himself a beer can do so.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> I understand the concept of tourist apartheid, but it is not that
> >> >unique
> >> >> >> to Cuba.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Mixing two things here: the poor - rich barrier and the true
"tourist
> >> >> >apartheid" of Cuba.
> >> >> >Keep the both quite seperated please. Two different things all
> >together.
> >> >> >The fact that a father with his hungru daughters walks by a hotel
and
> >> >sees
> >> >> >the tourists eat what his daughetr lacks happens in a lot of
places.
> >> >> >In very few countries a well dressed (European clothes) middle aged
> >lady
> >> >> >with two well dressed and well behaved kids are denied access to
the
> >> >patio
> >> >> >bar of a middle class hotel where they want to eat an ice cream
while
> >> >they
> >> >> >have the money to pay for them.
> >> >> >That sets Cuba apart. Cubans are second class citizens in their own
> >> >> >countries. They are the "kaffers" of Castro.
> >> >
> >> >No comments?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't like it. But the benefits of going there outweigh that.
> >
> >I agree that if you went there and have been allowed to absorb the truth
the
> >trip was worth it.
> >I somehow have doubts that you caught on the true desperate situation.
> >Maybe you should assist at the birth of a child in the "clinica de los
> >angeles" in Santiago once to get a "true view".
> >I was there twice.
> >
> >
> >In short: I am getting ready to get antibiotics for my godson to send on
> >Monday.
> >He needs them as he has pneumonia in Santiago and there are none
available.
> >We pay peso 100 ($4) a month so my relatives can have an "extension" in
> >Cuba.
> >That is a "lifeline".
> >
> >I jus hope DHL is fast.
> >
> >That sets us apart.
> >I live Cuba. You talk about it.
> >Get back to me when you live it.
> >
> >PL

> >
> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> If one
> >> >> >> >> choses to boycott Cuba for this reason, that is a rational
> >choice.
> >> >> >> >

> >> >> >> >I would call it an ethical one.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> By innuendo it seems that you are calling the decision to travel
> >there
> >> >> >> an unethical one. Is that your point?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Nope.
> >> >> >Everyone decides for oneself.
> >> >> >I travel to Cuba to visit my godson and family.
> >> >> >I feel there is nothing unethical about it. I do take over a lot of
> >basic
> >> >> >help (shoes, clothes) and medicines (10kg a person) for my
relatives
> >and
> >> >the
> >> >> >children's hospital in Santiago.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Do you go there legally?
> >> >
> >> >Yes.
> >> >I am a EU citizen.
> >> >
> >> >> If so, why should YOU go and I can't.
> >> >
> >> >Fallacy.
> >> >I can go using my Visa and getting my passport stamped.
> >> >I can't use my American Express.
> >> >I have to change flight in Dusseldorf, Paris, Amsterdam or Madrid.
> >> >You can't use your visa.
> >> >You can change flights in Montreal, Cancun, ...
> >> >You can't get your passport stamped.
> >> >
> >> >That is it.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> That
> >> >> seems like travel apartheid to me.
> >> >
> >> >Nope.
> >> >What stes us apart is that I can use my Visa card and get my passport
> >> >stamped.
> >> >Small difference.
> >> >
> >> >> And it is THIS COUNTRY that is
> >> >> fostering it. If not, then you would seem a little hypocritical.
> >> >
> >> >Remember: Cubans can't travel, have no Visa card and only get
passports
> >by
> >> >paying 20 times the average monthly wage.
> >> >Keep focused.

> >> >
> >> >> >> >> But it should not be government policy.
> >> >> >> >

> >> >> >> >again the issue is can solidarty be imposed or should it be
> >voluntary.
> >> >> >> >Any government system imposes solidarity in one way or another
> >> >> >(progressive
> >> >> >> >tax rates and social security is one widely accepted example).
> >> >> >> >The extent to which people are willing to accept that varies.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Why is there no "imposed solidarity" with respect to China?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >If you feel travel restrictions should be imposed on China you
should
> >> >call
> >> >> >for them.
> >> >> >The issue here is whether travel restrictions to Cuba can be
ethically
> >> >> >justified.
> >> >> >I feel that one should be very weary (as you are) of any
limitations
> >of
> >> >the
> >> >> >personal freedom of the individual.
> >> >> >But I don't think that the fact that there are no travel
restrictions
> >on
> >> >all
> >> >> >morally reprehensible regimes means that those in place on Cuba
should
> >be
> >> >> >lifted. Those are separate issues. The first is a clear cut ethical
> >and
> >> >> >moral dilemma. The second is an issue of political hypocrisy. The
fact
> >> >that
> >> >> >political hypocrisy and economic considerations stops certain
> >sanctions
> >> >from
> >> >> >being put in place does not mean that those that are in place
should
> >be
> >> >> >lifted.
> >> >> >The lifting should be considered on it's own merits. The fact that
> >Stalin
> >> >> >killed millions of people does not mean that Hitler is "in the
clear".
> >> >One
> >> >> >was a WW2 ally and the other an enemy does not change the fact that
> >> >morally
> >> >> >both are genocidal maniacs. Your argument could be interpreted as
> >saying
> >> >why
> >> >> >attack Hitler if you leave Stalin alone.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Hitler was attacked purely for national security reasons.
> >> >
> >> >Nope.
> >> >Japan was attcked for security reasons.
> >> >International solidarity came in to play in Europe.
> >> >
> >> >>The Cuban
> >> >> embargo once made sense on these terms, but it doesn't now.
> >> >
> >> >That is the biggest error you made.
> >> >It was irrelevant in the past (the SU aid eliminated the effects).
> >> >It is very relevant and very functional now.
> >> >
> >> >> The
> >> >> difference in treatment of China and Cuba is very important.
> >> >
> >> >Nope.
> >> >
> >> >> It shows
> >> >> that the government acts out of malleable principles, or that its
> >> >> acting on principles is tempered by convenience.
> >> >
> >> >It shows that the US government isn't 100% consistent.
> >> >But I have been in China and Cuba and China has more freedom than
Cuba.
> >> >So you are hypocritical in not making that distinction.
> >> >
> >> >> "Principles" are
> >> >> principles only to the extent that they are applied uniformly.
> >> >> Political hypocrisy is dangerous, because it breeds disrespect for
the
> >> >> law.
> >> >
> >> >By which you mean that you should let a "100% certified" dictator off
the
> >> >hook if you do not punish a "86%" certified one.
> >> >Sounds stupid to me.
> >> >If you feel that strongly about China you should support sanctions
> >against
> >> >China.
> >> >Not the ending of the trade boycott against Cuba.
> >> >
> >> >> National travel restrictions to Cuba "can be ethically justified" as
> >> >> can a lifting of travel restrictions.
> >> >
> >> >Make your case.
> >> >
> >> >> Any number of contradictory
> >> >> policies can be ethically justified.
> >> >
> >> >Unlike you I think humand rights are absolute, not "flexible", it
seems.

> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>I actually have Cuban friends
> >> >> >> >> there. I am not a Cuban, nor do I speak Spanish all that
well.
> >> >> >> >

> >> >> >> >My wife is Cuban. ia m fluent in Spanish.
> >> >> >> >I am close to the Cuban reality though not Cuban myself.

> >> >> >> >> I
> >> >> >> >> also communicate with people there regularly. Who benefits
from
> >my
> >> >> >> >> not being able to go there?
> >> >> >> >

> >> >> >> >Who benefits from you going there.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I don't think this question is particularly relevant. Who
benefits
> >if
> >> >> >> I take a cruise or go to Cancun?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >what if you going there ends up keeping a morally corrupt regime in
> >> >place?
> >> >> >Are you saying that in no way you are responsible for the direct
> >> >> >consequences of your actions?
> >> >> >If your money would go to the Montgomery Alabama KKK, would go go
on
> >the
> >> >> >cruise to Cancun?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Ponder the phrase "If going there ends up keeping a morally corrupt
> >> >> regime in place." There are alot of assumptions loaded into that
> >> >> phrase.
> >> >
> >> >Nope.
> >> >A lot of facts:
> >> >
> >> >1. the government has a stake in all travel companies (some are mixed)
> >> >2. gaviota (hotels, car rental, ...) is owned by the Cuban military
> >> >.......
> >> >
> >> >> It implies that not going there, etc., has some chance of
> >> >> success, which we know from experience is not going to happen.
> >> >
> >> >Nope.
> >> >It states that denying Cuba access to the US market in "tourism
services"
> >> >can work as a pressure mechanism.
> >> >Please explain why it wouldn't.
> >> >
> >> >> When
> >> >> you travel to Cuba with your family, you are helping to keep a
morally
> >> >> corrupt regime in place.
> >> >
> >> >In a way, yes.
> >> >My biggest fault is that I rent a car.
> >> >Second is that I buy at state shops.
> >> >I do stay at casas, eat at paladares.
> >> >I don't fly Cubana.
> >> >I try to "atone" for my sins by setting up a website for casas and by
> >taking
> >> >over lots of medicines.
> >> >
> >> >> Would it be ethical for the US Navy to blockade Cuba and starve the
> >> >> government (and everybody else) into submission?
> >> >
> >> >Nope.
> >> >I favor trade of food and medicines.
> >> >But I do agree that we should not buy Cuban goods or services.
> >> >
> >> >> As for direct consequences of actions, I am sure you meant to say
> >> >> "indirect." There are many indirect consequences of our actions.
Too
> >> >> many to fathom.
> >> >
> >> >True.
> >> >But some are direct consequences.
> >> >Stay at a Gaviota hotel and the Cuban army benefits.
> >> >Rent that Peugeot 405 of Gaviota and the army benefits.
> >> >
> >> >> Is the embargo directly or indirectly responsible for personal
> >> >> deprivation of the Cuban people? This question's answer tempers the
> >> >> ethical issues you have raised.
> >> >
> >> >In my opinion: no.
> >> >The mismanagement of the Cuban economy by Castro is responsible of the
> >> >hardship.
> >> >Castro himself admitted that before he took over there was no hunger
in
> >> >Cuba:
> >> >
> >> >See:
> >> >
> >> >1. Maurice Halperin:
> >> >
> >> >"Castro himself admitted that while there was poverty, there was no
> >> >economic
> >> >crisis
> >> >and no hunger in Cuba before the Revolution. (See Maurice Halperin:
> >> >The Rise and Fall of Fidel Castro, University of California, 1972,
> >> >pgs. 24, 25, 37)"
> >>
>
>>http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/bright/dolgoff/cubanrevoluti
o
> >n/chapter7.html
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Here is Halperin's record.
> >> >
> >> >Who was Maurice haplerin?
> >> >
> >> >In 1953 Maurice Halperin was called before the Senate Internal
> >> >Security Subcommittee to defend himself on charges of espionage. He
was
> >> >accused
> >> >of having supplied Soviet sources with classified material from the
> >> >Office of Strategic Services while he was an employee during World War
> >II.
> >> >http://www.system.missouri.edu/upress/spring1995/kirschn.htm
> >> >
> >> >Maurice Halperin, the now 88-year old first visited Cuba in 1935 and
> >> >then was deported by the Bautista government, then he returned later
as
> >an
> >> >adviser for the Castro government. Halperin gives a great insight into
> >> >his view of Cuba of the past and the present.
> >> >http://historyoftheworld.com/latin/cuba.htm
> >> >
> >> >Professor emeritus and political scientist Maurice Halperin passed
> >> >away February 9, due to a stroke. He was one of Simon Fraser
University's
> >> >best loved and most distinguished professors, and had been with the
> >> >University since its infancy in 1968. He would have been 89 on March
3.
> >> >
> >> >Halperin was an authority on Cuba, and wrote several books on its
> >> >politics and culture. His most recent publication was **Return to
> >Havana**,
> >> >published in 1994.
> >> >
> >> >He was chief of the Latin American Division with the Office of
> >> >Strategic Services (OSS) during World War II and chair of Latin
American
> >> >Studies
> >> >at Boston University in 1949. He received Brazil's Order of the
Southern
> >> >Cross for scholarly contributions.
> >> >
> >> >In 1935, Halperin was part of an abortive mission with the League of
> >> >American Writers to investigate human rights abuses in Cuba.
> >> >Blacklisted during the "Red Scare" in the US in the 1950s, he and his
> >wife
> >> >Edith
> >> >left journeyed to Moscow, Mexico, and at the personal invitation of
Che
> >> >Guevara, to Havana. For six years, Halperin worked as a university
> >lecturer
> >> >and
> >> >government official in Cuba before leaving for SFU.
> >> >
> >> >"He was a remarkable man and intellect who lived a long full life,"
> >> >said Ted Cohn, a colleague in Political Science since1977.
> >> >
> >> >"I have many memories, including his immediate challenge to swim at
> >> >least half a mile daily in the university's pool.... "
> >> >
> >> >"He was a wonderful and immensely interesting man," recalls another
> >> >long-time SFU colleague and friend Dr. Lenard Cohen.
> >> >
> >> >"He was a treasure of stories of politics and power and how they are
> >> >used and should be analysed, and we will miss him a great deal."
> >> >
> >> >http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/95-1/issue9/halp.html
> >> >
> >> >A friend of Che.
> >> >Persecuted by Mc Carthy.
> >> >Still a "questionable source" for Dan.
> >> >Now where does that put this idiot Dan on the political spectrum?
(should
> >I
> >> >say the "lying spectrum"?)
> >> >
> >> >2. The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations
> >> >
> >> >Even with Russian subsidies people in Cuba were undernourished:
> >> >
> >> >Table 4: Prevalence of undernourishment
> >> >
> >> >Latin America and the Caribbean
> >> >
> >> >Country Number of undernourished
> >> >
> >> > (%)
> >> >(million)
> >> >
> >> > 1979-81 1990-92 1995-97 1979-81 1990-92 1995-97
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Cuba 0.3 0.3 2.1 3 3 19
> >> >
> >> >http://www.fao.org/Regional/Lamerica/LARC/PDFing/006e.pdf
> >> >
> >> >3% of the population EVEN WITH Russian subsidies.
> >> >
> >> >The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations was
founded
> >in
> >> >1945 with a mandate to raise levels of nutrition and standards of
living,
> >to
> >> >improve agricultural productivity, and to better the condition of
rural
> >> >populations.
> >> >Today, FAO is one of the largest specialized agencies in the United
> >Nations
> >> >system and the lead agency for agriculture, forestry, fisheries and
rural
> >> >development. An intergovernmental organization, FAO has 183 member
> >countries
> >> >plus one member organization, the European Community.
> >> >
> >> >Since its inception, FAO has worked to alleviate poverty and hunger by
> >> >promoting agricultural development, improved nutrition and the pursuit
of
> >> >food security - defined as the access of all people at all times to
the
> >food
> >> >they need for an active and healthy life.
> >> >
> >> >http://www.fao.org/UNFAO/e/wmain-e.htm
> >> >
> >> >The data quoted comes from:
> >> >
> >> >TWENTY-SIXTH FAO REGIONAL CONFERENCE
> >> >
> >> >FOR LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN
> >> >
> >> >Merida, Mexico, 10 to 14 April 2000
> >> >
> >> >FOLLOW-UP TO THE WORLD FOOD SUMMIT
> >> >
> >> >http://www.fao.org/Regional/Lamerica/LARC/PDFing/006e.pdf
> >> >
> >> >3. Sam Dolgoff
> >> >
> >> >Armando Hart, a member of Castro's innermost ruling group, made the
> >> >extremely significant observation that:
> >> >
> >> >. . . it is certain that capitalism had attained high levels of
> >> >organization, efficiency and production that declined after the
> >> >Revolution. . . (Juventud Rebelde, November 2, 1969; quoted by Rene
> >> >Dumont, Is Cuba Socialist?,
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Paul A. Baran, an ardent pro-Castroite in the equally ardent Monthly
> >> >Review pamphlet, Reflections on the Cuban Revolution (1961)
> >> >substantiates what every economist, as well as amateurs like Castro,
> >> >has been saying:
> >> >...the Cuban Revolution was born with a silver spoon in its mouth. .
> >> >.the world renowned French agronomist, Rene Dumont, has estimated that
> >> >if properly cultivated as intensively as South China, Cuba could feed
> >> >fifty million people. . . the Cuban Revolution is spared the painful,
> >> >but ineluctable compulsion that has beset preceding socialist
> >> >revolutions: the necessity to force tightening of people's belts in
> >> >order to lay the foundations for a better tomorrow. . .(p. 23)
> >> >
> >> >Theodore Draper quotes Anial Escalante, (before he was purged by
> >> >Castro) one of the leading communists, who admitted that:
> >> >...in reality, Cuba was not one of the countries with the lowest
> >> >standard of living of the masses in America, but on the contrary, one
> >> >of the highest standards of living, and it was here where the first
> >> >great . . . democratic social revolution of the continent burst forth.
> >> >. . If the historical development had been dictated by the false axiom
> >> >[revolutions come first in poorest countries] the revolution should
> >> >have been first produced in Haiti, Colombia or even Chile, countries
> >> >of greater poverty for the masses than the Cuba of 1958. . . (quoted
> >> >in Draper's Castro's Revolution: Myths and Realities; New York, 1962,
> >> >p. 22)
> >> >
> >>
>
>>http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/dolgoff/cubanrevoluti
o
> >n
> >> >/chapter7.html
> >> >
> >> >Name of author see:
> >>
>
>>http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/dolgoff/cubanrevoluti
o
> >n/toc.html
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Sam Dolgoff
> >> > Biography
> >> >
> >> > Sam Dolgoff, my old friend who died last week, spoke from
sidewalk
> >> >soapboxes and in union meeting halls for more than 60 years, and
during
> >all
> >> >that time, what caught everyone's attention was his tough cocky style,
> >half
> >> >New York, half Joe Hill. Flames of mockery and indignation danced
above
> >his
> >> >head. The man identified with the downtrodden workers, and he shouted
> >"It's
> >> >a cryin' shame!" And the way those words bellowed from his mouth, the
> >gruff
> >> >rumble of his laughter, the thrust of his bulldog face and his
workman's
> >> >hands spread in a gesture of sweet reason--every single trait said, in
> >> >effect: Sam Dolgoff is [not] for the working class. He is the working
> >class.
> >> >And the rest of you goddamned bastards can say anything you please,
but
> >your
> >> >opinion will not sway him one solitary inch.
> >> >
> >> > He was born in 1902 in Russia, where his uncle later became a
> >> >well-known novelist (and died in a Stalinist concentration camp). But
> >most
> >> >of his childhood was spent on the Lower East Side and in the Bronx and
a
> >> >brief childhood it was, because at age 11 or 12 he went into his
father's
> >> >trade house painting, and stayed there until he retired. He dipped his
> >foot
> >> >into the Young People's Socialist League. But Socialism was tepid. So
he
> >> >went over to the Road to Freedom anarchist group and to the Industrial
> >> >Workers of the World (IWW), the Wobblies, and that was home and
school.
> >> >
> >> > He rode the rails for the Wobblies, sometimes as a gandy dancer
(or
> >> >maintenance man), or else hopping boxcars, and he always looked for
the
> >> >chance to stand in front of a crowd and, in that broken cello of a
voice'
> >> >pop off, as he liked to say, on the rights of labor. He and a couple
of
> >> >Wobblies drove from Kansas City to Chicago in a hearse bearing a big
> >> >sign--JUSTICE IS DEAD IN CALIFORNIA! FREE TOM MOONEY!--to drum up
crowds.
> >> >The message never seems to have varied much. He was for grassroots
> >> >democratic unions and militant direct action. For absolute equality,
> >> >tolerance, and liberty--"the equal right to be different," as he once
> >said.
> >> >For the abolition of all authoritarian social relations, beginning
with
> >the
> >> >state. For the emancipation of humanity. And when the golden sun of
the
> >> >revolutionary future dawned, he expected the militant rank and file
labor
> >> >organizations to form One Big Union and take over industry and
administer
> >> >society in the light of reason. Anarcho-syndicalism--trade unionism
with
> >a
> >> >libertarian socialist goal in other words--was the name of this
doctrine.
> >> >
> >> > At any time, Dolgoff could probably have moved up to a more
> >> >comfortable life, either as a painting contractor or as a staffer in
the
> >> >unions. His talents were obvious. He devoured works of political
theory
> >in
> >> >half a dozen languages, and he turned himself over the years into an
> >> >authentic political intellectual, the author of books and pamphlets on
> >> >American labor, the Spanish Civil War, Third World revolution, and the
> >> >theories of M. A. Bakunin, the Russian anarchist. But his notion of
> >> >egalitarianism would never let him use these talents to rise above the
> >> >ranks. He was happy to move up with the working class, but not from
it,
> >to
> >> >borrow a phrase from Eugene Debs. One of his Wobbly tours took him to
> >> >Cleveland where he met his life companion, Esther, standing among the
> >crowd,
> >> >and after that, with a family to bring up, he was in no position to
roam
> >the
> >> >rails. So it was back to house painting, with rabble-rousing on the
> >> >side--and no question of a different or more remunerative trade. If
the
> >> >unions in New York put up cooperative housing for workers, which they
> >did,
> >> >he was content to sign up for a good apartment, and in that way live
in a
> >> >better style. But not in any other way.
> >> >
> >> > Everything he did was opposed by powerful people. There were
> >> >racketeers in the painters' union, and still are. His revolutionary
> >efforts
> >> >in the town of New Brunswick, New Jersey, led him to describe that
> >benighted
> >> >place as, in his inflection, "a bunch a bastards." The New York Red
Squad
> >> >infiltrated his meetings at the old Labor Temple on 14th Street. And
the
> >> >Communist Party, USA, was still another bunch a bastards. The Wobblies
> >and
> >> >anarchists climbed on their soapboxes to do their public service--and
> >> >Communist toughs shouted them down and beat them, too, if they could
get
> >> >away with it. Even Ralph Chaplin, the Wobbly poet who wrote the anthem
of
> >> >the American labor movement, "Solidarity Forever," got shouted down by
> >the
> >> >commies. When that Kansas City hearse reached Chicago, it was the
> >> >Communists, not the police, who tried to steal it away.
> >> >
> >> > News from the old country didn't favor the Communists, either.
In
> >the
> >> >1920s and '30s, the Wobblies and anarchists had underground ties
> >throughout
> >> >the Soviet Union, and they knew that their own comrades, not to
mention
> >> >millions of other people, were getting shipped to the prison camps.
The
> >very
> >> >first detailed accounts of the Soviet gulag to reach the United States
> >came
> >> >from Dolgoff's circle of comrades, notably from his own personal
mentor,
> >the
> >> >venerable Russian revolutionary-in-exile, G. P. Maximoff.
> >> >
> >> > So the battle against communism took its place in Dolgoff's
> >> >agitational work. As early as 1929, he toured the soft-coke mines of
> >> >Illinois organizing the Progressive Miners Union for the IWW and
warning
> >the
> >> >miners against Bolshevism. During the '30s he set himself up as the
> >American
> >> >representative of Spain's largest antifascist organization, the
National
> >> >Confederation of Labor, anarcho-syndicalist in orientation, and again
> >> >reported on Communist as well as Fascist atrocities. And of these,
> >several
> >> >campaigns, possibly the noblest, certainly the loneliest, was the one
he
> >> >took up early in the 1960s on behalf of the persecuted libertarian
> >leftists
> >> >and trade unionists of Cuba.
> >> >
> >> > Who, after all, has given a damn during these last 30 years for
the
> >> >anti-Communist left in Cuba? Fidel Castro came to power in 1959 and
sent
> >his
> >> >own allies among the libertarians and democrats to "the wall" or to
jail
> >or
> >> >into exile, more or less as in the Soviet Union--and in middle-class
> >> >progressive circles around the world, not many people noticed that
> >Fidelista
> >> >firing squads were murdering the good guys along with the bad. The
tiny,
> >> >aging networks of the anarcho-syndicalist movement in the United
States
> >did
> >> >notice. They happened to have underground contacts in Cuba. too, and
> >these
> >> >contacts smuggled out the news. As far back as 1961, Dolgoff and his
> >> >comrades in New York--the hardy souls at the Libertarian League, the
> >Freie
> >> >Arbeiter Stimme group of Jewish labor anarchists the Cultura
Proletaria
> >> >group of antifascist Spanish exiles--began putting out the word. They
> >raised
> >> >money for the prisoners in Cuban jails and for the ragged exiles
fleeing
> >to
> >> >Miami.
> >> >
> >> > The campaign for Cuban labor radicals was not the ticket to
> >left-wing
> >> >popularity in the 1960s and '70s. But what the hell, the rest of you
> >> >bastards can say anything you please. Sam Dolgoff wasn't in it for the
> >> >applause. One of the most beloved leaders of the New Left during the
> >1960s,
> >> >Dave Dellinger, who called himself a libertarian, returned from Cuba
and
> >> >reported that socialism was alive and free in Castro's hands. And
> >Dolgoff,
> >> >furious, organized a few Good Rebels (to use the Wobbly honorific) to
> >stand
> >> >outside a meeting of Dellinger's and picket and pop off about the
rights
> >of
> >> >Cuban labor. Middle-class radicals looked at the old housepainter and
> >called
> >> >him--him!--a reactionary. What a joke. Justice Is Dead in Cuba!
> >> >
> >> > Yet--this was his achievement--in his old age, he did pick up a
> >> >following, at least in the anti authoritarian wing of the radical
> >movement.
> >> >People knocked on Dolgoff s door and for a moment, maybe, given his
> >> >crustiness, they had to squint to get him into view. He answered my
own
> >> >knock, back in my student days, wearing boxer shorts and a sleeveless
> >> >T-shirt and clutching a copy of the Yiddish organ of the Jewish
Anarchist
> >> >Federation of Argentina in his hand. What a first impression! But the
> >image
> >> >cleared. He was a man of perfect consistency. He was the spirit of
> >freedom
> >> >in its left-wing form. He was the beating heart of the truest American
> >> >radicalism, the Wobbly ideal. And the young people and some of the
> >downtown
> >> >avant-garde flocked to. him--even if, on cultural issues, he wasn't
> >exactly
> >> >hip. Sam Dolgoff and Julian Beck of the Living Theater--there was an
odd
> >> >couple! (But the avant-garde always did have an affinity for the IWW.)
> >> >
> >> > He was a little rigid, truth be known. The greatest of the
> >> >anarcho-syndicalist theoreticians in this century were Rudolf Rocker,
> >> >Augustin Souchy, and Diego Abad de Santillan, who were, as Dolgoff
> >happily
> >> >acknowledged, his own masters--all of whom came out, after the Second
> >World
> >> >War, for democratic reform. They concluded that libertarian goals
could
> >fit
> >> >within a liberal social democracy. The Guangara Libertaria Miami
Cubans
> >and
> >> >the Freie Arbeirer Stimme circle in New York reached a similar
> >conclusion.
> >> >But not Dolgoff. Purple haired punkers overran his own organizations
and
> >> >conferences--and even so he clung to the syndicalism of 1910,
> >unbudgeable,
> >> >except in lesser ways.
> >> >
> >> > Still, the gist of those old principles, once he'd hammered them
> >into
> >> >someone's head. had a way of staying put. In my own case. I reported
for
> >the
> >> >Voice this past year on Sandinista Nicaragua and on revolutionary
> >> >Czechoslovakia, and both times I came back with stories about small
> >groups
> >> >of workers organizing to defend themselves and control their own
product
> >and
> >> >resist oppression. Nicaraguan shoemakers or Czech musicians--the
themes
> >were
> >> >Dolgoff an either way. He himself recognized my debt to him, once the
> >> >articles came out in print. For the gist was this: it doesn't matter
> >whether
> >> >a society calls itself capitalist or communist, liberal or
conservative.
> >The
> >> >measure of progress in all modern societies is the degree to which
> >working
> >> >people have the right and the opportunity to fight for their own
> >> >improvement.
> >> >
> >> > Sam met a group of us over on St. Marks Place one time. The
> >discussion
> >> >turned to questions of success and failure, a delicate issue. you
might
> >> >suppose, with someone who had devoted himself to building an IWW that
has
> >> >mostly disappeared. The wine flowed, he drank his fill, and made a
little
> >> >statement. It summed up his life:
> >> >
> >> > "You always need a left. And within the left, you need a left.
And
> >> >within the left of the left, you need a left. And in that left, you
need
> >a
> >> >left. And that left is me!"
> >> > Salud, Good Rebel. No one ever fulfilled his own destiny more
> >loyally
> >> >and bravely than you.
> >> >
> >> > By Paul Berman: Village Voice, November 13, 1990.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >http://www.anarchy-movement.org/anarchist.php?ID=8
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >If you stay at casas (see my site www.casaparticular.info) and
eat
> >at
> >> >> >> >paladares you can claim some contribution to the income of
ordinary
> >> >> >people.
> >> >> >> >If you are at a Melia resort in Varadero Melia, foreign
suppliers
> >and
> >> >the
> >> >> >> >government benefit in that order. Only the few lucky ones that
work
> >> >there
> >> >> >> >(often engineers and doctors) benefit.

> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> And the idea that you can go to Cuba is
> >> >> >> >> hogwash. There are no scheduled flights and you have the
burden
> >of
> >> >> >> >> proving that you didn't spend a dime there. You call that
> >freedom
> >> >to
> >> >> >> >> travel there?
> >> >> >> >

> >> >> >> >Get real.
> >> >> >> >Visit any place like the Lonely Planet site and you will see how
> >many
> >> >US
> >> >> >> >citizens go via Canada and Mexico.
> >> >> >> >Very few people have ever had any problems.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> So are you saying that you can go on scheduled flights from the
US?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Nope.
> >> >> >I am saying you can go.
> >> >> >I am saying that the travel ban is a leak as a basket for those
that
> >> >really
> >> >> >want.
> >> >> >What I am saying is that it is more the trade embargo on the sale
of
> >> >travel
> >> >> >related services to US clients than the travel ban that is keeping
US
> >> >> >citizens from going.
> >> >> >Do your analysis correctly.
> >> >> >Lifting the travel ban without allowing the "free trade" in travel
> >> >services
> >> >> >would be a dud.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Can you use your credit cards issued from US banks?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Yep.
> >> >> >Some places do accept them and the transactions are registered as
> >having
> >> >hap
> >> >> >pened in Mexico.
> >> >> >You can use Mexican of Canadian cards or travelers cheques. I am
not
> >> >saying
> >> >> >it is as easy to go to Cuba as it is to go to Mexico.
> >> >> >But it is very possible and very easy.
> >> >> >The flights and credit card issues are smokescreens. they
constitute
> >an
> >> >> >inconvenience, not an impairment.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> How safe do you
> >> >> >> feel with a wad of cash on you while staying in a casa
particular?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >In some of them very.
> >> >> >Anyway. You can use other means than cash to take money over
(canadian
> >> >> >traveller cheques, debit cards, ...)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Do you disclose you've been to Cuba on the Immigration/Customs
card?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Do you disclose you have been to a bar when you are under 21?
> >> >> >Not a major issue.
> >> >>
> >> >> See 18 USC 1001.
> >> >
> >> >Again: how many US citizens do not comply with custom regulations?
> >> >This is a non issue.
> >> >
> >> >> > If all US citizens that did not fully disclose everything
> >> >> >on the US customs card would be put in jail it would no longer be
> >"escape
> >> >> >from Manhattan" but escape from 13 of the 52 states if they made a
> >movie.
> >> >> >Mute point.

> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I answered your question. You only vaguely answered mine.
> >Should
> >> >> >> >> American citizens be prohibited from traveling to China?
> >> >> >> >

> >> >> >> >Nope.
> >> >> >> >Do you feel you it is unethical to ask of someone not to support
> >> >> >dictatorial
> >> >> >> >regimes?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> It is not unethical. But the policy is ineffective and
> >> >> >> counterproductive to Cubans
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Nope.
> >> >> >It can be very productive if the proposals of Paya and Sanchez are
> >> >followed
> >> >> >and if the lifting of trade sanctions iw part of a transition
process
> >to
> >> >> >democracy.
> >> >> >Remember South Africa?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> and to Americans and provides political
> >> >> >> cover for Castro.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >That by the way is no longer believed by anyone (even in Cuba), but
> >you
> >> >are
> >> >> >right that it is abused as an excuse.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> You keep saying this, claiming some sort of omniscience. My
> >> >> experience tells me otherwise.
> >> >
> >> >So you are telling me that you know Cubans that believe that the
embargo
> >is
> >> >the "source of all evils"?
> >> >Get real.
> >> >You might know Cubans that say so, but that just shows that they are
in
> >> >doubt about your allegiance.
> >> >I have heard Cubans up to the highest levels saying it was BS.
> >> >
> >> >> >> Other than that the embargo and travel ban it is
> >> >> >> wonderful.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >And by the way:
> >> >> >> >Do you feel Cuban citizens should be prohibited from travelling
> >> >ANYWHERE?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> No.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >So why aren't you asking for an end to their "travel" ban.
> >> >> >Not feeling very concerned here?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Your critcism of a travel ban is very "selective".
> >> >> >> >Why aren't you saying: listen the USA and Cuba should BOTH drop
> >their
> >> >> >travel
> >> >> >> >restrictions?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I am saying that. Cuba listens to me less than the US.
> >> >
> >> >So "beat up on the little kid and run away from the big bully" is your
> >> >philosophy?
> >> >I hear a lot of "convenience" here and not very much of "principle".
> >> >
> >> >> >> Well, I only have (marginal) input into US policy and not being a
> >> >> >> Cuban citizen, have none in Cuba.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Maybe via the travel ban and the trade sanctions you also have a
> >> >"marginal
> >> >> >input" in to the Cuban policy.
> >> >> >Why cherish your "marginal input" in the US and reject the
"marginal
> >> >input"
> >> >> >in Cuba.
> >> >> >Not consistent.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >In a consumer boycott those consumers ( and nations in trade
boycotts)
> >> >that
> >> >> >take an certain amount of personal (national) "discomfort" in their
> >> >stride
> >> >> >as part of "being part of a process of change for the better".
> >> >> >What you are saying is: "I resent the few practical inconveniences
I
> >have
> >> >as
> >> >> >they far outweigh the suffering of the Cuban people as far as I am
> >> >> >concerned".
> >> >> >
> >> >> >That is a very selfish point of view. rather isolationist and not
> >> >extremely
> >> >> >ethical.
> >> >>
> >> >> I didn't say it was "extremely ethical," merely ethical. Again,
your
> >> >> argument is that suffering of the Cuban people is somehow alleviated
> >> >> by the embargo.
> >> >
> >> >Nope.
> >> > I say that an end to the suffering is dependent on a current
> >continuation
> >> >of trade sanctions.
> >> >Very different.
> >> >
> >> >> I think the opposite is true. And I am not saying
> >> >> inherent inefficiencies of a command economy do not shoulder some
> >> >> blame.
> >> >
> >> >The understatement of the millenium.
> >> >
> >> >> It probably shoulders the lion's share of the blame. But is
> >> >> your position that the embargo has NO effect on people's suffering?
> >> >> That makes my case for its inefficacy.
> >> >
> >> >How about the internal embargo?
> >> >Get real.
> >> >
> >> >The disaster is now "irrevocable"
> >> >
> >> >Jul 4th 2002 | HAVANA
> >> >From The Economist print edition
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >A non-working system is enshrined forever
> >> >
> >> >http://www.economist.com/World/la/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1217228
> >> >
> >> >On the "internal embargo that is the root cause:
> >> >
> >> >"Your Excellencies, ｝reak the internal embargo
> >> >against the Cuban people!"
> >> >You can read the complete letter by Armando Valladares (in Spanish),
> >> >by clicking: http://www.angelfire.com/fl/CubDest/
> >> >
> >> >Beatriz Roque:
> >> >
> >> > "If the embargo is lifted, there will be some changes, but not for
the
> >> >people. Because we do not only have the American embargo, we also
> >> >suffer from an internal embargo. The Cubans themselves are being
blocked
> >> >economically. So, I only can dream of buying a new American car. I
> >> >really would like to buy one; they're of good quality. Mine still has
the
> >> >original engine."
> >> >http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/cub020517.html
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Paya said
> >> >
> >> > "If the embargo is lifted, there will be some changes, but not for
> >> >the people. Because we do not only have the American embargo, we also
> >> >suffer from an internal embargo. The Cubans themselves are being
blocked
> >> >economically."
> >> >http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/cub020517.html
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Now, as to my minor inconveniences and selfishness. Travel is
> >> >> selfish. You enrich yourself, and others help you do it. You don't
> >> >> really need to be enriched.
> >> >
> >> >False;
> >> >ravel enriches both parties if they respect each other.
> >> >I have made good friend all over.
> >> >I have Jewish friends an Palestinian friends.
> >> >The issue is respect.
> >> >And yes. You do need to be enriched.
> >> >I studied at the Thunderbird because I felt stronly about that issue.
> >> >
> >> >> I don't need to go to Cuba.
> >> >
> >> >No family. No pressing reason?
> >> >Get real: friends are a pressing reason if they are in need.
> >> >
> >> >> I am just interested in that country.
> >> >
> >> >The country or the people.
> >> >What do you want: a selfish experience or human interaction in
respect?
> >> >
> >> >>I
> >> >> could listen solely to the CANF and not see things with my eyes, and
> >> >> anyway, seeing Cuba for a shirt trip is purely superficial.
> >> >
> >> >CANF (in it's extreme form) is part of the problem.
> >> >Not part of the solution.
> >> >There is a "third way".
> >> >
> >> >> Obtaining
> >> >> personal observation is not really important.
> >> >
> >> >False.
> >> >Going to a place with an open mind and respect for others is the most
> >> >important thing you can do.
> >> >As long as you act on it.
> >> >
> >> >> I can meet some people there and develop life-long friendships,
which
> >> >> I have done. But new friends are not really important.
> >> >
> >> >Get your priorities straight.
> >> >
> >> >> I love Cuban music. They don't have alot of it here where I live.
> >> >> Bush is refusing visas for Cuban performers to play here (probably
> >> >> along some ethical consrtuct with a strong aloy of political
> >> >> expediency). But then, music is not very important.
> >> >
> >> >Ever heard of the internet?
> >> >
> >> >> We can whittle away at personal freedoms all day long and
DEMONSTRATE
> >> >> quite effectively that they are merely minor inconveniences.
> >> >
> >> >Absense of freedom of speech and freedom of movement seem "major" to
me.
> >> >Both my grandfathers were in Hitler's camps. One had earlier been in
> >> >Stalin's prisons. Quite ironic, no: jailed by two "opposing" dictators
> >for
> >> >the same reason: not shutting up. Not giving in.
> >> >
> >> >> No what would be better about the world had I nver gone to Cuba?
> >> >
> >> >Maybe not.
> >> >But remember the old "superboy" comics about the kid who said that
> >leaving
> >> >one bicycle on the library steps didn't matter much? "Superboy" put
100
> >> >bicycles on the steps and showed that if everyone did what the
uncaring
> >kid
> >> >did, nobody could get in to the library any more.
> >> >
> >> >> Castro will rule Cuba till he drops dead, and nothing short of an
Iwo
> >> >> Jima style invasion is going to change that.
> >> >
> >> >True.
> >> >But he is in bad shape.
> >> >God and nature will help.
> >> >I am ready to help Cuba to get into shape.
> >> >Are you?
> >> >
> >> >PL
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> >I feel that denying the Cuban regime the "red robber barons"
profits
> >from
> >> >> >access to the US markets that would insure "no change" in the
abusive
> >> >> >situation in Cuba at perpetuity is justified.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Believe me: the "discomfort" Cubans feel under the regime is a lot
> >worse
> >> >> >than not being able to pay with your usual credit card or having to
> >> >change
> >> >> >planes in Montreal.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Do you feel that the Cuban dictatorship should end and how?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Yes. I don't know.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >But you categorically state that trade sanctions wont help.
> >> >> >How about South Africa.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Should we not take it upon us to contribute?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Not if you're talking about another Iraq or an Operation
Mongoose.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Maybe boycotting Cuban products and services (including tourism)
> >> >suffices.
> >> >> >That is all what is being asked.
> >> >> >No "wars" nor "covert action".
> >> >> >I can live with these peaceful means like I could live with a
boycott
> >of
> >> >> >sports shoes, clothing, ... made with (virtual) slave labor. You
seem
> >to
> >> >> >have a problem with even these peaceful means. The "inconvenience"
you
> >> >have
> >> >> >outweighs their impact for you.
> >> >> >We can differ on the usefulness of the trade sanctions, but keep
one
> >> >thing
> >> >> >in perspective: the trade sanctions indeed were pretty ineffectual
as
> >> >longs
> >> >> >as the SU was "up and running" as subsidies and guaranteed markets
> >were
> >> >> >available.
> >> >> >The true impact of the trade sanctions ara seen from the moment of
the
> >> >> >"special period" in Cuba.
> >> >> >Then the subsidies and falsified trade that hid the true economic
> >> >> >performance of Cuba disappeared.
> >> >> >Since then the sale of food, medicines, medical equipment, building
> >> >> >materials, ... has been lifted (and righly so).
> >> >> >What needs to remain in place in the boycott of Cuban products and
> >> >services.
> >> >> >If that goes Cuba will be reduced to a communist cheap labor camp,
a
> >> >> >"maquiladora" country.
> >> >> >Only a democratic Cuba can avoid these abuses.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >PL
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >PL
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >I believe in the right of anyone to freely go anywhere he
wants
> >to
> >> >go.
> >> >> >> >> >I also believe that that right should be awarded to all at
that
> >we
> >> >> >should
> >> >> >> >be
> >> >> >> >> >willing to contribute to those actions that support the
> >enhancement
> >> >of
> >> >> >> >that
> >> >> >> >> >freedom for all.
> >> >> >> >> >I do support not allowing products and services in from
> >countries
> >> >> >where
> >> >> >> >the
> >> >> >> >> >labor force is abused and where human rights are totally
denied.
> >> >> >> >> >I don't like footballs stitched by kids and cans made by
Cubans
> >> >that
> >> >> >are
> >> >> >> >> >undernourished, have no labor rights, have no freedom of
speech
> >and
> >> >> >have
> >> >> >> >no
> >> >> >> >> >freedom of movement.
> >> >> >> >> >I don't like to sit in a hotel where the "natives" aren't
> >allowed
> >> >in.
> >> >> >I
> >> >> >> >> >never believed in apartheid, not in SA not in Cuba.
> >> >> >> >> >I believe we should not support in any way a regime that has
> >abused
> >> >> >human
> >> >> >> >> >rights for 45 years.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >I think it is morally wrong to stay in hotels while the local
> >> >people
> >> >> >are
> >> >> >> >not
> >> >> >> >> >allowed in.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >Note that the US travel ban is actually not stopping those
that
> >> >want
> >> >> >to
> >> >> >> >go
> >> >> >> >> >to Cuba from doing so.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >The Castro regime is stopping all it's citizens from going
> >anywhere
> >> >by
> >> >> >> >> >requiring (in addition to a passport) and exit and re-entry
visa
> >of
> >> >> >it's
> >> >> >> >> >citizens.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >When demanding rights you have to be willing to actively
support
> >> >the
> >> >> >> >rights
> >> >> >> >> >of others if not your demands are hypocrite.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >So: would you feel happy sipping a mojito while the "natives"
> >are
> >> >kept
> >> >> >> >out?
> >> >> >> >> >Do you feel that the Cuban dictatorship should and how?
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >I support the point of view of Cuban dissidents that advocate
a
> >> >> >gradual
> >> >> >> >end
> >> >> >> >> >to the trade boycott as Cuba becomes more democratic.
> >> >> >> >> >What is wrong with that?
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >PL

> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

> >> >> >> >> >news:3f507349.2065166515@news.supernews.com...
> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:29:59 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be>
wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >Do you believe in dictatorships?
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Do you believe in the right to travel to China?
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >

> >> >> >> >> >> >PL
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> ><AbelM...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>news:20002-3F5...@storefull-2178.public.lawson.webtv.net...

ahlahan

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 4:00:15 AM8/31/03

to

There's NO CITIZENSHIP apartheid in the rest of the world but Cuba , there
is FINANCIAL apartheid in every corner of the world but nationatility
apartheid is a extrictly a Cuban aberration. But to impede a local citizen
to rent a room in hotel just because he is a LOCAL it is beyond
comprehension.

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
news:3f50abba.2079614828@news.supernews.com...
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:29:22 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> >
> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
> >news:3f507b86.2067274937@news.supernews.com...
> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:15:40 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't like the idea of Cubans not being allowed in hotel rooms,
> >> although they are in fact allowed in public areas of hotels.
> >
> >Get real.
> >You won't make it in to the lobby of a place like the Melia Cohiba.
> >But this is the "petty" part of the Cuban apartheid. The preferential
> >treatment in medical assistance, transport, ...
> >It never ends.
> >You also gloss over the human rights abuses.
>
>
> Get real. You can make it into the lobby of Novotel Miramar which is
> every but as good as Meilia Cohiba.
>

> BTW, how many Haitians get to go to Royal Caribbean's Labadee? I

> understand the concept of tourist apartheid, but it is not that unique
> to Cuba.
>
> >

> >> If one
> >> choses to boycott Cuba for this reason, that is a rational choice.
> >
> >I would call it an ethical one.
> >
>
>
> By innuendo it seems that you are calling the decision to travel there
> an unethical one. Is that your point?
>
>

> >> But it should not be government policy.
> >
> >again the issue is can solidarty be imposed or should it be voluntary.
> >Any government system imposes solidarity in one way or another
(progressive
> >tax rates and social security is one widely accepted example).
> >The extent to which people are willing to accept that varies.
>
> Why is there no "imposed solidarity" with respect to China?
>
> >

> >>I actually have Cuban friends
> >> there. I am not a Cuban, nor do I speak Spanish all that well.
> >
> >My wife is Cuban. ia m fluent in Spanish.
> >I am close to the Cuban reality though not Cuban myself.
> >> I
> >> also communicate with people there regularly. Who benefits from my
> >> not being able to go there?
> >
> >Who benefits from you going there.
>
> I don't think this question is particularly relevant. Who benefits if
> I take a cruise or go to Cancun?
>
>

> >If you stay at casas (see my site www.casaparticular.info) and eat at
> >paladares you can claim some contribution to the income of ordinary
people.
> >If you are at a Melia resort in Varadero Melia, foreign suppliers and the
> >government benefit in that order. Only the few lucky ones that work there
> >(often engineers and doctors) benefit.
> >
> >> And the idea that you can go to Cuba is
> >> hogwash. There are no scheduled flights and you have the burden of
> >> proving that you didn't spend a dime there. You call that freedom to
> >> travel there?
> >
> >Get real.
> >Visit any place like the Lonely Planet site and you will see how many US
> >citizens go via Canada and Mexico.
> >Very few people have ever had any problems.
>
> So are you saying that you can go on scheduled flights from the US?

> Can you use your credit cards issued from US banks? How safe do you

> feel with a wad of cash on you while staying in a casa particular?

> Do you disclose you've been to Cuba on the Immigration/Customs card?
>
> >
> >>

> >> I answered your question. You only vaguely answered mine. Should
> >> American citizens be prohibited from traveling to China?
> >
> >Nope.
> >Do you feel you it is unethical to ask of someone not to support
dictatorial
> >regimes?
>
> It is not unethical. But the policy is ineffective and

> counterproductive to Cubans and to Americans and provides political
> cover for Castro. Other than that the embargo and travel ban it is

> wonderful.
>
> >And by the way:
> >Do you feel Cuban citizens should be prohibited from travelling ANYWHERE?
>
> No.
>
>

> >Your critcism of a travel ban is very "selective".
> >Why aren't you saying: listen the USA and Cuba should BOTH drop their
travel
> >restrictions?
>
>

> Well, I only have (marginal) input into US policy and not being a
> Cuban citizen, have none in Cuba.
> >

> >Do you feel that the Cuban dictatorship should end and how?
>
> Yes. I don't know.
>

> >Should we not take it upon us to contribute?
>
>
> Not if you're talking about another Iraq or an Operation Mongoose.
> >
> >
> >
>
>

ahlahan

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 4:10:58 AM8/31/03

to

Excuse me but are you an asshole or just play one on NG
Does FREEDOM ring a bell? does apparteid ring a bell? does racism ring a
bell ?
What would YOU , "you stupid fuck" would say if a black american was not
allowed at the Waldorf Astoria even if he had the money to pay for it ?

"Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message

news:3F515A8E...@localnet.com...

ahlahan

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 4:26:36 AM8/31/03

to

That my dear friend is the de-facto situation in Cuba DESPITE of what the
left-wing communists of this group may say. THAT indeed is the equality the
KaSStro revolution has brought to my country !

"observer" <obse...@privacy.nu> wrote in message

news:AK84b.1307$gt1.1...@twister.socal.rr.com...

>
> <Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
> news:3f507b86.2067274937@news.supernews.com...
> > On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:15:40 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >
> > I don't like the idea of Cubans not being allowed in hotel rooms,

> > although they are in fact allowed in public areas of hotels. If one

> > choses to boycott Cuba for this reason, that is a rational choice.

> > But it should not be government policy. I actually have Cuban friends
> > there. I am not a Cuban, nor do I speak Spanish all that well. I

> > also communicate with people there regularly. Who benefits from my

> > not being able to go there? And the idea that you can go to Cuba is

> > hogwash. There are no scheduled flights and you have the burden of
> > proving that you didn't spend a dime there. You call that freedom to
> > travel there?
> >

> > I answered your question. You only vaguely answered mine. Should
> > American citizens be prohibited from traveling to China?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

ahlahan

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 4:29:31 AM8/31/03

to

Very interesting Lillian! Thank you for the link !

"Lillian Martinez" <l...@xld.com> wrote in message
news:birg4m$cckej$1...@ID-77562.news.uni-berlin.de...

> What do you suppose the solution would be?
>
> Certainly, you are aware of the Ladies of Havana episode?
>
> Lillian
> Ladies of Havana episode: http://xld.com/public/cuba/STARS/Usind.htm
>

> ------------------------------

>
> <Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

ahlahan

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 4:32:42 AM8/31/03

to

Total KaSStrian propaganda unsubstantiated by unbiased observers. You people
are so fucking naive.

"Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message

news:3F510FE4...@localnet.com...
> PL wrote:
> > <Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote:
>
> > 14% of Cubans is undernourished.
> > The Cuban health system is failing.
> > There is an emergency.
>
> Cuba has a far better health system than
> anywhere else in Latin America, despite
> not being allowed to imports medicines from
> the US. There are a surprising number of
> undernourished people right here in the US.
>

> >>and there is no benefit to anyone as a result of my concession of
> >>rights
> >
> > false. By denying the Cuban elite access to the US markets (which they

> > desperately want) you are giving the next generation of leadres (Castro

> > won't budge) an incentive to change instead of giving them a reason to
hold
> > on to the system of Human rights abuses.
>
> To change into what? Another Dominican Republic?
>

> >>Don't you see that the embargo actually gives Fidel Castro political
> >>cover for his government's shortcomings?
> >
> > Most Cubans don't believe that any more by the way.
> > The trade sanctions (and the EU aid sanctions) provide an incentive for
> > change.
> >
> > But on the central issue: do you accept a (very small) limitation of
your
> > rights to support the rights of others.
>

> You're being totally hypocritical. The fact that you own a

> computer proves that you don't forego buying items made by

> exploited laborers. Your wardrobe would, of necessity, be
> very limited also.
>

ahlahan

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 4:39:52 AM8/31/03

to

And this from the best fed elite in Cuba after the goverment echelon.

"observer" <obse...@privacy.nu> wrote in message

news:iQ84b.1332$gt1.1...@twister.socal.rr.com...

>
> <Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

> news:3f50afcb....@news.supernews.com...
> > On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:23:58 +0000 (UTC), "Bobito"

> > <bot...@legover.land> wrote:
> >
> > >Americans should be able to travel freely to Cuba when Cubans are able
to
> > >travel freely to America
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

> > If Cubans could travel freely to the US, we would not let them in. We
> > would apply the standards for legal travel applicable to countries
> > like Mexico and the Philippines.
> >
> A Cuban gymnast at an international meet in Anaheim just defected.
> He said the reason he went to the meet was to defect. Things are
> terrible in Cuba. The Dictatorship is brutal.
>
>

ahlahan

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 4:46:18 AM8/31/03

to

Hogwash ???? how the hell do YOU know ? Who are you to discredit her
statement ? Do you know with any degree of authority what KaSStro does with
"hard currency" ? I DO; as I am deeply associted with a top Cuban
economists. 80% of all hard currency goes toward the "support of the
revolution" you naive leftist. Did you know that KaSStro's personal fortune
is over 500 Million ? Even FORTUNE magazine had it wrong !

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f512460...@news.supernews.com...

> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:15:49 -0500, "Lillian Martinez" <l...@xld.com>
> wrote:
>
> >You are financing terrorism when you travel there. For more data on
this,
> >see the terrorism link at the end of the petition page:
> >http://xld.com/public/cuba/solutions/corpus.htm
> >
> >Lillian
> >http://xld.com/public/cuba/cuba.htm
> >
> >
> >"Bobito" <bot...@legover.land> wrote in message
> >news:bir5lq$380$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> >> i believe anyone should be allowed to travel anywhere.
> >>
> >> I've been to Cuba and seen for myself the conditions people live in.
If,
> >as
> >> an American you want to go to China, you are free to go there.
> >>
> >> Can Cubans go to China, or anywhere else for that matter???
> >>
> >>
> >
> >

> hogwash

PL

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 4:54:10 AM8/31/03

to

"Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message

news:3F515A8E...@localnet.com...

> Limbaugh wrote:
> > On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:15:11 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >> Limbaugh wrote:
>
> >>>Thanks for talking down to me despite my utmost level of respect when
> >>>talking to you.
> >>
> >>You are welcome.
>
> I thought this was a beautiful example. He may speak Spanish but it
> doesn't seem that English is one he's fluent in.

Are you an English teacher?

Well I know very few people that appreciate being second class citizens in
their own country.
But you are correct: getting in to a hotel or bar is part of the "petty
apartheid".
Not having access to the same hospitals and medicines is worse.
Not being allowed to express oneself or to freely moves then moves it to the
realm of human rights.

> After that, he
> just starts quoting propaganda.

You mean to say that stating that Castro is a dictator is "propaganda".

The United Nations seems to agree with me and said in a report on the Cuban
"elections":
"the electoral process is so tightly controlled that the final phase,
the voting itself, could be dispensed with without the final result being
substantially affected"
http://www.hri.ca/fortherecord1998/vol4/cubachr.htm

Some more "propaganda":

See:
Amnesty International;
http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-cub/index

Human Rights Watch
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/
http://www.hrw.org/americas/cuba.php
http://www.hrw.org/wr2k3/americas5.html

Reporters withour frontiers:
http://www.rsf.org/country-47.php3?id_mot=109&Valider=OK

Genocide Watch:
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable.htm

The International Confederation of free trade unions:
http://www.icftu.org/displaydocument.asp?Index=991215640&Language=EN

> It's easy to see from his shopping
> list that his class interests aren't with the masses.

I prefer a "classless" society.
The concept of class is just divisive.
But my interest seems to be with the respect of human rights.
In your eyes this seems to bu subordonated to the comcept of calss struggle.

> He keeps assuming that Cuba would be another Sweden and unlike
> all the other countries of Latin America. Based on...?

I don't assume.
I just see what Cubans tell me and what some of the major dissidents like
Paya advocate.
The system they would like to achieve is closer to a European social
democracy than to an extreme capitalist system.

PL

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 6:12:57 AM8/31/03

to

"Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message

news:3F515565...@localnet.com...

> PL wrote:
> > "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
> > news:3F510FE4...@localnet.com...
> >
> >>PL wrote:
> >>
> >>><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote:
> >>
> >>>14% of Cubans is undernourished.
> >>>The Cuban health system is failing.
> >>>There is an emergency.
> >>
> >>Cuba has a far better health system than
> >>anywhere else in Latin America, despite
> >>not being allowed to imports medicines from
> >>the US. There are a surprising number of
> >>undernourished people right here in the US.
> >>
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/7714
>
> The original article was from CubaNet, which gets its funding from
> USAID and the National Endowment for Democracy. Two truly unbiased
> sources within the federal bureaucracy.

And wood TV in Grand Rapids Michigan is also funded by USAid.
Get real. Here is the link to the story on their site:
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?s=%20%201419891

> >
> > But then if you believe Castro's "statistics" there are no prblems.
> > But then how luch confidence can one have in these "statistics"?
> >
> >
> > Pax Christi.
>
> Couldn't even get to the web link specified.

Report at:
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/pax1.html

Pax Christi.

"The Ministry of Health does everything in its power to conceal such
evidence, even supplying false figures to the World Health Organization, in
order not to discredit the Cuban health services."

The full quote :

"Jeronimo tells us about the diseases now prevalent in Cuba, due to
malnutrition, lack of infrastructures, medicines, hygiene and safe drinking
water. To admit this in public can cost one his or her job and even a prison
sentence (for the 'crime' of making 'enemy propaganda'). This is what
happened at the beginning of the Nineties to former Sub-Minister of Health
Dr. Terry, 'set to cool' after he presented Castro with a report confirming
the local presence of 'peripheric neuritis' (a form of Beri-beri), an
affliction which affects the nervous system and is due to vitamin
deficiency. People dying from this disease get written off as victims of
something else, a diagnosis that doctors are often forced to endorse, lest
the Revolution's achievements be placed under threat. This is also how the
prominent doctor Desi Mendoza was vanquished sometime ago, jailed in
Santiago de Cuba for warning against the appearance of 'dengue hemorrágico'.
This disease begins with bleeding of the eyes and has caused many deaths
until now. It is transmitted by a fly that thrives on unhygienic conditions
and the lack of adequate medicines. The Ministry of Health does everything
in its power to conceal such evidence, even supplying false figures to the
World Health Organization, in order not to discredit the Cuban health
services.' "

Pax Christi Website:
http://www.passievoorvrede.nl/page.php?pag_id=307&PHPSESSID=e194cb5e1953f4b457e3770650211e96

So what: underreporting of diseases.
That is the point.

> > Copyright (c) 1989 - Information, Inc., Bethesda, MD. This information
is
> > provided by the Center for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC), National
AIDS
> > Clearinghouse as a public service. Noncommercial reproduction
encouraged.
>
> > Too crude a lie here "jeff".
>
> You have more "crude" lies from CubaNet.

Another "crude lie". You attacked the article I posted at the top as a
"crude lie" of Cubanet.
The source isn't Cubanet but WoodTV in Grand Rapids Michigan as the link
shows.
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?s=%20%201419891
That was clearly indicated in the article.
Cubanet is completely correct.

> According to my National
> Geographic Atlas of ten years ago, the life expectancy in Cuba is
> the same as in the US.

based on Cuba statistics: that as we know are manipulated for political
reasons.
from www.promedmail.org not Cubanet

The global electronic reporting system for outbreaks
of emerging infectious diseases & toxins,
open to all sources.
ProMED-mail, the Program for Monitoring
Emerging Diseases, is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases

"WHO and the PanAmerican Health
Organization (WHO's Regional Office for the Western Hemisphere) cannot
report
to the world without clearance from the Cuban government. "

Archive Number 19970627.1390
Published Date 27-JUN-1997
Subject PRO/EDR> Dengue/DHF - Cuba (06)

DENGUE/DENGUE HEMORRHAGIC FEVER - CUBA (06)

"People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including international
health
representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban Government
policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban physicians
have confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is
politically
influenced (e.g., if dengue were declared wiped out, then physicians could
report the disease only as influenza-like symptoms). However, lack of
reporting may simply be an understaffing issue.

The Cuban authorities had reported the eradication of two mosquito species
thought by many outside Cuba to be ineradicable. Eradication of both _Ae.
aegypti_ and _Ae. albopictus_ is a difficult, if not impossible task, no
matter the resources applied. Quiet requests by Cuba for additional
insecticide foggers and almost 200 tons of insecticide did not go unnoticed,
but did indicate that neither Aedes mosquitoes nor dengue had been
eradicated
from Cuba. "

This morning's CubaPress reported that the epidemic of dengue is continuing
in Santiago de Cuba, that there have been 10,000 - 30,000 cases, with
perhaps
3 - 15 deaths, depending on who is providing the information. Of course,
this is only a report by a news service. WHO and the PanAmerican Health
Organization (WHO's Regional Office for the Western Hemisphere) cannot
report
to the world without clearance from the Cuban government. Their last
report,
of 18 June 1997, stated: "On 16 June 1997, the Ministry of Health officially
reported that 826 cases of dengue (3 deaths) have occurred in the city of
Santiago de Cuba."

http://www.promedmail.org/pls/askus/f?p=2400:1202:1175928782689624216::NO::F2400_P1202_CHECK_DISPLAY,F2400_P1202_PUB_MAIL_ID:X,2802

> >>>>and there is no benefit to anyone as a result of my concession of
> >>>>rights
> >>>
> >>>false. By denying the Cuban elite access to the US markets (which they
> >>>desperately want) you are giving the next generation of leaders (Castro
> >>>won't budge) an incentive to change instead of giving them a reason to
> >>
> > hold
> >
> >>>on to the system of Human rights abuses.
> >>
> >>To change into what? Another Dominican Republic?
> >
> > Nope.
> > Cuba was the third developed nation in the Americas.
> > Now it is a third world nation.
> > Cuba has the right mix to take up it's place as a "above average"
nation.
>
> Baloney. Cuba was another dictatorship run by the mob for
> the benefit of a few elite Cubans and Gringos.

and a "mob" that included the Communist party that sided with Batista until
late 1957 at least:

In November 1940, the communists supported Batista's candidates in the
elections to the Constituent Assembly. In return for their support,
Batista allowed the communists to organize and control the government
sponsored union, Cuban Confederation of Labor (CTC Confederacion de
Trabajadores de Cuba) The first Secretary General of the CTC was
Lazaro Pena--who, ironically, enough, held the same post in the Castro
regime. In exchange for these favors the communists guaranteed Batista
labor peace. In line with the Communist Party's "Popular Front Against
Fascism" policy, the alliance of the Communist Party with the Batista
was officially consumated when the Party joined the Batista
government. The Communist Party leaders Carlos Rafael Rodriguez and
Juan Marinello (who now hold high posts in the Castro government)
became Ministers Without Portfolio in Batista's Cabinet. To illustrate
the intimate connections between the communists and Batista, we quote
from a letter of Batista to Blas Roca, Secretary of the Communist
Party:

June 13,1944
Dear Blas,
With respect to your letter which our mutual friend, Dr. Carlos Rafael
Rodriguez, Minister Without Portfolio, passed to me, I am happy to
again express my firm unshakeable confidence in the loyal cooperation
the People's Socialist Party [the then official name of the Communist
Party of Cuba] its leaders and members have given and continue to give
myself and my government. . . Believe me, as always,
Your very affectionate and cordial friend,
Fulgencio Batista
In the electoral campaign the Communist candidates won ten seats in
the Cuban parliament and more than a hundred posts in the Municipal
councils.

In line with their pro-Batista policy the communists joined Batista in
condemning Fidel Castro's attack on the Moncada Barracks (July 1953 --
the anniversary of the attack is a national holiday in Castro Cuba)

. . . the life of the People's Socialist Party (communist). . . has
been to combat . . . and unmask the putschists and adventurous
activities of the bourgeois opposition as being against the interests
of the people. . . (reported in Daily Worker, U.S organ of the
Communist Party, August 10, 1953)
Throughout the Batista period the communists pursued two parallel
policies: overtly they criticized Batista and covertly they cooperated
with him.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/dolgoff/cubanrevolution
/chapter6.html

Not from Cubanet. See the Dolgoff bio furtehr down.

In the course of the guerrilla struggle in the Sierra Maestra
mountains, he (Castro) delivered another speech which, once again, stresses
his
distance from the Communists:

"What right does Senor Batista have to speak of Communism? After all,
in the elections of 1940 he was the candidate of the Communist Party ... his
portrait hung next to Blas Roca's and Lazaro Pena's; and half a dozen
ministers and confidants of his are leading members of the CP."
H.M. Enzenburger, Raids and Reconstructions, London, 1976, p.200.

http://www.marxisme.dk/arkiv/binns/80-cucas.htm

Not Cubanet, a danish Marxsist site.

"Although they had been in the previous
period the largest and most influential Communist Party in Latin America,
they were also the most cravenly opportunist, and the most Stalinist,
following every twist and turn in Russian foreign policy and adapting to
their Cuban milieu. They were sectarian in opposing the general strike in
1933 which brought down the dictator Machado. Later their popular front
strategy led them to gain two ministers under Batista after forming an
alliance with him after 1938. They spoke of having a "positive attitude
towards the progressive endeavours" of Batista in his first period in power.
Even into the fifties, though the CP had been repressed by their former
ally, they referred to the July 26th movement as "putschists and sterile".
Although they came to some understanding with Castro from 1957 and sent
cadres to fight with the guerrillas, they were still formally calling for a
bourgeois government to replace Batista into the middle of 1958, only months
before Castro took power. This was hardly the programme or actions of a
revolutionary socialist party that sought to lead the working class to
power."

http://www.workersliberty.org/wlmags/wl54/cuba.htm

and from http://www.workersliberty.org/ at that, not Cubanet

Let's have a look at health:

Cuba's infant mortality rate of 32 per 1,000 live births in 1957 was the
lowest in Latin America and the 13th lowest in the world, according to UN
data. Cuba ranked ahead of France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan,
Austria, Italy, and Spain, all of which would eventually pass Cuba in this
indicator during the following decades[7].

Cuba's comparative world ranking according to data in Table 1 has fallen
from 13th to last out of the 25 countries examined. Also missing from the
conventional analysis of Cuba's infant mortality rates is its staggering
abortion rate of 77.7 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44 in 1996[8] --
which, because of selective termination of "high-risk" pregnancies, yields
lower numbers for infant mortality. Cuba's abortion rate was the 3rd
highest out of the 60 countries studied.

In terms of physicians and dentists per capita, Cuba in 1957 ranked third in
Latin America, behind only Uruguay and Argentina -- both of which were more
advanced than the United States in this measure. Cuba's 128 physicians and
dentists per 100,000 people in 1957 was the same as the Netherlands, and
ahead of the United Kingdom (122 per 100,000 people) and Finland (96).

Unfortunately, the UN statistical yearbook no longer publishes these
statistics, so more recent comparisons are not possible, but it is
completely erroneous to characterize pre-Revolutionary Cuba as backward in
terms of healthcare.

http://www.state.gov/p/wha/ci/14776.htm

Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit
of the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
University of Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent
three months in Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers
on Cuban health care. Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was
only able to get hold of the official statistical data and find them
not especially trustworthy.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html

The AIDS Conference: Critics Say Cuba Hiding HIV Epidemic"
San Francisco Sunday Examiner and Chronicle (06/24/90), P. D14
Krieger, Lisa M.

http://www.aegis.org/news/ads/1990/AD900781.html

Archive Number 19970627.1390
Published Date 27-JUN-1997
Subject PRO/EDR> Dengue/DHF - Cuba (06)

DENGUE/DENGUE HEMORRHAGIC FEVER - CUBA (06)

People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including international health
representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban Government
policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban physicians
have confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is
politically
influenced (e.g., if dengue were declared wiped out, then physicians could
report the disease only as influenza-like symptoms). However, lack of
reporting may simply be an understaffing issue.

The Cuban authorities had reported the eradication of two mosquito species
thought by many outside Cuba to be ineradicable. Eradication of both _Ae.
aegypti_ and _Ae. albopictus_ is a difficult, if not impossible task, no
matter the resources applied. Quiet requests by Cuba for additional
insecticide foggers and almost 200 tons of insecticide did not go unnoticed,
but did indicate that neither Aedes mosquitoes nor dengue had been
eradicated
from Cuba.

http://www.promedmail.org/pls/askus/f?p=2400:1202:1175928782689624216::NO::F2400_P1202_CHECK_DISPLAY,F2400_P1202_PUB_MAIL_ID:X,2802

Nutrition:

1.Maurice Halperin:

Who was Maurice haplerin?

http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/95-1/issue9/halp.html

Also paid by USAID I guess

Country Number of undernourished

(%)
(million)

http://www.fao.org/Regional/Lamerica/LARC/PDFing/006e.pdf

http://www.fao.org/UNFAO/e/wmain-e.htm

TWENTY-SIXTH FAO REGIONAL CONFERENCE

http://www.fao.org/Regional/Lamerica/LARC/PDFing/006e.pdf

3. Sam Dolgoff

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/dolgoff/cubanrevolution
/chapter7.html

Sam Dolgoff
Biography

http://www.anarchy-movement.org/anarchist.php?ID=8

Seeing your attacks above I do agree with you that your information is
exremely biased.
But then now you have quotes from Danish and British Marxist sites and two
experts on Cuba with excellent credentials (Halperin being persecuted by
McCarthy and being a friend of Che should help). There are also quotes from
Cuban leaders like Armando Hart.

PL

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 6:27:03 AM8/31/03

to

Maybe because I am in a different time zone?
Get real.

PL

<Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

news:3f514325...@news.supernews.com...
> it lookd like my friend PL has failed to anwer the 18 USC 1001 issue.
> Why is that?

>
>
>
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:15:18 GMT, Limbaugh Fart Detector wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:32:32 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
> >>news:3f5110b5...@news.supernews.com...

> >>> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:44:00 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
> >>> >news:3f50abba.2079614828@news.supernews.com...

> >>> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:29:22 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message
> >>> >> >news:3f507b86.2067274937@news.supernews.com...
> >>> >> >> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:15:40 GMT, "PL" <P...@pandora.be> wrote:
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> I don't like the idea of Cubans not being allowed in hotel
rooms,
> >>> >> >> although they are in fact allowed in public areas of hotels.
> >>> >> >

> >>> >> >Get real.
> >>> >> >You won't make it in to the lobby of a place like the Melia
Cohiba.
> >>> >> >But this is the "petty" part of the Cuban apartheid. The
preferential
> >>> >> >treatment in medical assistance, transport, ...
> >>> >> >It never ends.
> >>> >> >You also gloss over the human rights abuses.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Get real. You can make it into the lobby of Novotel Miramar which
is
> >>> >> every but as good as Meilia Cohiba.
> >>> >

> >>> >Get real.
> >>> >You can't make on to the terrace bar (and lobby) of the Casa Granda
in
> >>> >Santiago which is a lot worse.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Also...Cubans can enter the lobby of the Hotel Ambos Mundos in Havana.
> >>> I have personal experience in both these places, and we had no
> >>> problem. That is not to say that I think you are wrong on the
> >>> tourist-apartheid issue.
> >>
> >>Again you show your ignorance about Cuba.
> >>Havan isn't Cuba.
> >>Oriente is a lot worse than Havana.
> >>I had a friend of mine molested in the lobby of the "Havana libre".
> >>A controller of a Cuban mixed company was harrased in the Melia Cohiba.
> >>My mother in law wasn't (at first) allowed to stay in the three bedroom
> >>appartment I rented in the "Villa Panamericana"
> >>Get real.
> >>Your experience is very limited.
> >>Friends of mine raised a scandal to allow my sister in law in to the
"san
> >>juan" dump in Havana.
> >>
> >>> >

> >>> >> BTW, how many Haitians get to go to Royal Caribbean's Labadee?
> >>> >

> >>> >Haiti is poor. So are most Cubans by the way.
> >>> >But any person with the dollars to pay himself a beer can do so.
> >>> >

> >>> >> I understand the concept of tourist apartheid, but it is not that
> >>unique
> >>> >> to Cuba.
> >>> >

> >>> >Mixing two things here: the poor - rich barrier and the true "tourist
> >>> >apartheid" of Cuba.
> >>> >Keep the both quite seperated please. Two different things all
together.
> >>> >The fact that a father with his hungru daughters walks by a hotel and
> >>sees
> >>> >the tourists eat what his daughetr lacks happens in a lot of places.
> >>> >In very few countries a well dressed (European clothes) middle aged
lady
> >>> >with two well dressed and well behaved kids are denied access to the
> >>patio
> >>> >bar of a middle class hotel where they want to eat an ice cream while
> >>they
> >>> >have the money to pay for them.
> >>> >That sets Cuba apart. Cubans are second class citizens in their own
> >>> >countries. They are the "kaffers" of Castro.
> >>
> >>No comments?
> >>
> >>> >> >

> >>> >> >> If one
> >>> >> >> choses to boycott Cuba for this reason, that is a rational
choice.
> >>> >> >

> >>> >> >I would call it an ethical one.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> By innuendo it seems that you are calling the decision to travel
there
> >>> >> an unethical one. Is that your point?
> >>> >

> >>> >Nope.
> >>> >Everyone decides for oneself.
> >>> >I travel to Cuba to visit my godson and family.
> >>> >I feel there is nothing unethical about it. I do take over a lot of
basic
> >>> >help (shoes, clothes) and medicines (10kg a person) for my relatives
and
> >>the
> >>> >children's hospital in Santiago.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>>
> >>> Do you go there legally?
> >>
> >>Yes.
> >>I am a EU citizen.
> >
> >
> >

> >Why are you not pressuring your government to make travel to Cuba
> >ILLEGAL, a feature you love about mine? You don't see any problem
> >with this contradicition?
> >
> >It must be easy as a European to make value judgment about us and
> >support criminal sanctions for us for behavior which you engage in.
> >
> >
> >I admire your desire to use your travel dollars in a conscientiously
> >ethical fashion, but your views on the US embargo and the criminal
> >exposure to US citizens who engage in the same conduct as you is
> >hypocritical and UNETHICAL. Yours is not an ethical position. You
> >want me to go to jail for what you do with impunity. How does that
> >make you different from Fidel?

> >
> >
> >>
> >>> If so, why should YOU go and I can't.
> >>
> >>Fallacy.
> >>I can go using my Visa and getting my passport stamped.
> >>I can't use my American Express.
> >>I have to change flight in Dusseldorf, Paris, Amsterdam or Madrid.
> >>You can't use your visa.
> >>You can change flights in Montreal, Cancun, ...
> >>You can't get your passport stamped.
> >>
> >>That is it.
> >>
> >>
> >>> That
> >>> seems like travel apartheid to me.
> >>
> >>Nope.
> >>What stes us apart is that I can use my Visa card and get my passport
> >>stamped.
> >>Small difference.
> >

> >I have to represent on penalty of 18 USC 1001 where I have been.
> >While you have taken leave to call me ignorant on more than one
> >occasion, I would like you to read the statute
> >
> >http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=1001
> >
> >Do you realize that Americans who have done no other criminal acts
> >have done jail terms on 1001 violations? You can get 5 years.
> >
> >I am an attorney. If I am caught I lose my livelihood. My wife is a
> >citizen of the Philippines. She could be deported. It could ruin
> >our lives. You are IGNORANT of this, right?
> >
> >Who are you to talk about this as being minor when it doesn't even
> >apply to you?

> >
> >
> >>
> >>> And it is THIS COUNTRY that is
> >>> fostering it. If not, then you would seem a little hypocritical.
> >>
> >>Remember: Cubans can't travel, have no Visa card and only get passports
by
> >>paying 20 times the average monthly wage.
> >>Keep focused.
> >>

> >>> >> >> But it should not be government policy.
> >>> >> >

> >>> >> >again the issue is can solidarty be imposed or should it be
voluntary.
> >>> >> >Any government system imposes solidarity in one way or another
> >>> >(progressive
> >>> >> >tax rates and social security is one widely accepted example).
> >>> >> >The extent to which people are willing to accept that varies.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Why is there no "imposed solidarity" with respect to China?
> >>> >

> >>> >> >>I actually have Cuban friends
> >>> >> >> there. I am not a Cuban, nor do I speak Spanish all that well.
> >>> >> >

> >>> >> >My wife is Cuban. ia m fluent in Spanish.
> >>> >> >I am close to the Cuban reality though not Cuban myself.

> >>> >> >> I
> >>> >> >> also communicate with people there regularly. Who benefits from
my
> >>> >> >> not being able to go there?
> >>> >> >

> >>> >> >Who benefits from you going there.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I don't think this question is particularly relevant. Who benefits
if
> >>> >> I take a cruise or go to Cancun?
> >>> >

> >>1. Maurice Halperin:

> >>Still a "questionable source" for Dan.
> >>Now where does that put this idiot Dan on the political spectrum?
(should I
> >>say the "lying spectrum"?)
> >>

> >>> >> >If you stay at casas (see my site www.casaparticular.info) and eat
at
> >>> >> >paladares you can claim some contribution to the income of
ordinary
> >>> >people.
> >>> >> >If you are at a Melia resort in Varadero Melia, foreign suppliers
and
> >>the
> >>> >> >government benefit in that order. Only the few lucky ones that
work
> >>there
> >>> >> >(often engineers and doctors) benefit.
> >>> >> >

> >>> >> >> And the idea that you can go to Cuba is
> >>> >> >> hogwash. There are no scheduled flights and you have the burden
of
> >>> >> >> proving that you didn't spend a dime there. You call that
freedom
> >>to
> >>> >> >> travel there?
> >>> >> >

> >>> >> >Get real.
> >>> >> >Visit any place like the Lonely Planet site and you will see how
many
> >>US
> >>> >> >citizens go via Canada and Mexico.
> >>> >> >Very few people have ever had any problems.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> So are you saying that you can go on scheduled flights from the US?
> >>> >

> >>> >Nope.
> >>> >I am saying you can go.
> >>> >I am saying that the travel ban is a leak as a basket for those that
> >>really
> >>> >want.
> >>> >What I am saying is that it is more the trade embargo on the sale of
> >>travel
> >>> >related services to US clients than the travel ban that is keeping US
> >>> >citizens from going.
> >>> >Do your analysis correctly.
> >>> >Lifting the travel ban without allowing the "free trade" in travel
> >>services
> >>> >would be a dud.
> >>> >

> >>> >> Can you use your credit cards issued from US banks?
> >>> >

> >>> >Yep.
> >>> >Some places do accept them and the transactions are registered as
having
> >>hap
> >>> >pened in Mexico.
> >>> >You can use Mexican of Canadian cards or travelers cheques. I am not
> >>saying
> >>> >it is as easy to go to Cuba as it is to go to Mexico.
> >>> >But it is very possible and very easy.
> >>> >The flights and credit card issues are smokescreens. they constitute
an
> >>> >inconvenience, not an impairment.
> >>> >

> >>> >> How safe do you
> >>> >> feel with a wad of cash on you while staying in a casa particular?
> >>> >

> >>> >In some of them very.
> >>> >Anyway. You can use other means than cash to take money over
(canadian
> >>> >traveller cheques, debit cards, ...)
> >>> >

> >>> >> Do you disclose you've been to Cuba on the Immigration/Customs
card?
> >>> >

> >>> >Do you disclose you have been to a bar when you are under 21?
> >>> >Not a major issue.
> >>>
> >>> See 18 USC 1001.
> >>
> >>Again: how many US citizens do not comply with custom regulations?
> >>This is a non issue.
> >>
> >>> > If all US citizens that did not fully disclose everything
> >>> >on the US customs card would be put in jail it would no longer be
"escape
> >>> >from Manhattan" but escape from 13 of the 52 states if they made a
movie.
> >>> >Mute point.
> >>> >
> >>> >>
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >>

> >>> >> >> I answered your question. You only vaguely answered mine.
Should
> >>> >> >> American citizens be prohibited from traveling to China?
> >>> >> >

> >>> >> >Nope.
> >>> >> >Do you feel you it is unethical to ask of someone not to support
> >>> >dictatorial
> >>> >> >regimes?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> It is not unethical. But the policy is ineffective and
> >>> >> counterproductive to Cubans
> >>> >

> >>> >Nope.
> >>> >It can be very productive if the proposals of Paya and Sanchez are
> >>followed
> >>> >and if the lifting of trade sanctions iw part of a transition process
to
> >>> >democracy.
> >>> >Remember South Africa?
> >>> >

> >>> >> and to Americans and provides political
> >>> >> cover for Castro.
> >>> >

> >>> >That by the way is no longer believed by anyone (even in Cuba), but
you
> >>are
> >>> >right that it is abused as an excuse.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You keep saying this, claiming some sort of omniscience. My
> >>> experience tells me otherwise.
> >>
> >>So you are telling me that you know Cubans that believe that the embargo
is
> >>the "source of all evils"?
> >>Get real.
> >>You might know Cubans that say so, but that just shows that they are in
> >>doubt about your allegiance.
> >>I have heard Cubans up to the highest levels saying it was BS.
> >>

> >>> >> Other than that the embargo and travel ban it is
> >>> >> wonderful.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> >And by the way:
> >>> >> >Do you feel Cuban citizens should be prohibited from travelling
> >>ANYWHERE?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> No.
> >>> >

> >>> >So why aren't you asking for an end to their "travel" ban.
> >>> >Not feeling very concerned here?
> >>> >

> >>> >> >Your critcism of a travel ban is very "selective".
> >>> >> >Why aren't you saying: listen the USA and Cuba should BOTH drop
their
> >>> >travel
> >>> >> >restrictions?
> >>>
> >>>

> >>> I am saying that. Cuba listens to me less than the US.
> >>
> >>So "beat up on the little kid and run away from the big bully" is your
> >>philosophy?
> >>I hear a lot of "convenience" here and not very much of "principle".
> >>

> >>> >> Well, I only have (marginal) input into US policy and not being a
> >>> >> Cuban citizen, have none in Cuba.
> >>> >

> >>> >> >Do you feel that the Cuban dictatorship should end and how?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Yes. I don't know.
> >>> >

> >>> >But you categorically state that trade sanctions wont help.
> >>> >How about South Africa.
> >>> >

> >>> >> >Should we not take it upon us to contribute?
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Not if you're talking about another Iraq or an Operation Mongoose.
> >>> >

> >>> >> >> ><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote in message

Lillian Martinez

unread,

Aug 31, 2003, 6:41:54 AM8/31/03

to

"Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message

news:3F515565...@localnet.com...

> PL wrote:
> > "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
> > news:3F510FE4...@localnet.com...
> >
> >>PL wrote:
> >>
> >>><Limbaugh Fart Detector> wrote:
> >>
> >>>14% of Cubans is undernourished.
> >>>The Cuban health system is failing.
> >>>There is an emergency.
> >>
> >>Cuba has a far better health system than
> >>anywhere else in Latin America, despite
> >>not being allowed to imports medicines from
> >>the US. There are a surprising number of
> >>undernourished people right here in the US.
> >>
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/7714
>
> The original article was from CubaNet, which gets its funding from
> USAID and the National Endowment for Democracy. Two truly unbiased
> sources within the federal bureaucracy.
>

It may be a very good article, but I wouldn't say that those organizations
are unbiased. they suport the Declaration of Human Rights which denies the
rights that are granted in the Bill of Rights of the United States
Constitution. This is why the US Congress has rejected the Universal
Declaration. Because several articles in the Declaration cancel human
rights when it is convenient for the United nations.