Newsgroups: fj.soc.politics, alt.war, alt.politics, alt.politics.bush
From: SteveL <Ste...@stevelon.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 15:10:28 GMT
Local: Fri, Nov 9 2001 10:10 am
Subject: Re: Chomsky attacks US double standards on terrorism
On 8 Nov 2001 18:43:33 -0800, polstuf...@yahoo.com (Francisco Mendoza)
I could say the same thing. I was a USAF brat all my childhood.
>Good, if you're willing to examine other opinions, there is hope for
Un-thinking pro-America was instilled in me. The US never did
anything wrong in the world etc... I've lived a lot of my adult life
overseas. That has taught me that some non-American views have merit -
even some which are seen as anti-American by people in the same state
of ignorance I was kept in before. If you've "been where I once was"
and moved further on then you have my respect because at least it
shows that you're opinions aren't just determined by upbringing. Too
many people in this group sharing your view are just borderline
fascists who've never been open to argument and probably never will.
Sorry you think I lowered the tone of the argument. Maybe I got my cue
>> many people defending Chomsky's linguistics credentials as attacking
>> >You could say that about Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc. Yasser Arafat win
>> Wow, I'll remember that the next time I see someone given an accolade.
>My none too subtly implied point was that not all accolades are
from your equally sweeping dissmissive comment that the conservative
Financial Times's respect for Chomsky was "scary for Britain". You're
quite the bobber and weaver. You start off trivializing Chomsky, I
respond with an indication of the respect in which he's held by
others. You then trivialize that implying that praise for Chomsky
falls into the same realm as praise for Stalin and the like (and you
*were*- despite your softer follow-up), and accuse me of using weak
tactics when I satirize *your* tone. You setup the straw man, not me.
Well I saw one your posts too, where you try to compare this current
>Or maybe I read your whole response and looked at some of your other
situation with the threat of Hitler. Don't agree at all. Sept 11th was
a *terrorist* act. Not an act of war by Afghanistan. Yet we fall into
the trap of behaving as though our argument is with a government -
because we don't know how to respond any differently.
We've gone to war with people who won't turn over a criminal suspect
Now the transmogrification is complete, with Tony Blair's unilateral
Drawing specious analogies of the current situation with appeasement
It is a fact of the time, by the way, that Hitler initially saw
A group of people commandeering civilian aircraft and flying them into
Whether 80-90% of Americans either ignore or just don't know that this
>> >> There are many, many people who have excellent reasons to hate the US.
>> >That is a disingenuous, indirect way of saying that the attack on the
>> Alleging cause and effect doesn't imply approval for the effect. The
>Would that be the 80-90% of Americans who understand what we have to
whole thing has a real cause, is neither here nor there. The very idea
of it is never mentioned in the mainstream US media, so it comes as no
surprise. It's accepted outside of the US, even by right wingers. In
fact, just last night Peter Hitchens (Christopher's loony right-wing
anti-brother) declared his complete astonishment at the conduct of the
war with Afghanistan on the BBC's Question Time program. He's as
pro-American as you'll get anywhere outside the US and even he has
doubts about this.
I'm precisely making the point that nothing is cut and dried. It's the
>> Pointing that out isn't being an apologist for terrorism. Wilfully
>I think you're implying that the blame you place on America somehow
simplistic "they started it. let's finish it - all other
considerations recinded" theme where everything *is* cut and dried.
You think that it's just down to a new virulant brand of Islam that's
It was an honestly taken inference that you were taking the (commonly
>> Well, I suppose genocidally elliminating any possible threat is
>"when the smoke has cleared" is admittedly vague, but assigning the
expressed) line advocating we just wade in and lay waste to the
region. If it's not what you really implied then sorry. Regardless,
it isn't *me* who trivializes genocide.
>> In that case I'd be interested in whether or not you agree that USYou imply this new Islam has designs of worldwide aggression. I say
>> policy in the Middle-East has helped create the current crisis.
>Not nearly to the extent that you seem to believe. I'd be interested
Arabs are reacting to *our* foreign policy aggression, and religious
fundamentalists are carrying the torch and rallying support for
themselves because they openly stand against it. If I'm right then
stopping the aggression *is* a sensible way forward and not naive
appeasement of a threat to us (that wouldn't exist were it not for our
Sept 11th was an act of hatred against the US committed by a group of
Perhaps actions such as backing the mujahadeen against Russia
Perhaps the sum of those things (and others) is a better explanation
It's easy for you to caricature British appeasers to Hitler discussing
>Do you believe thoseHmm, a loaded question if ever there was one. "Appeasing" "them". Who
>who hate us will stop hating us if we do what they say they want us to
>do (i.e. appease them)? Do you believe they are not trying hard to get
exactly?. I'm saying that America's foreign policy has negatively
impacted on literally millions of families in the Middle-East. I don't
consider myself as appeasing them. Out of those millions of people,
perhaps a few thousand at most are terrorists the US should be worried
about. Bombing the shit out of Afghanistan (and Iraq for that
matter), will only add to that figure. And since you don't agree with
genocidally elliminating all possible threats (as mentioned above),
then this should concern you.
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