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The only way the welfare bill is going to fall humanely is through greater private and personal charity.
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Andy Wainwright
Nov 1, 2012, 12:27:50 PM11/1/12
to
I don't think any of the major world leaders have been brave enough to
tell the people this.
For instance, businesses need to invest in disability employment
considerably. The word "invest" is important, because often an employee
who could be a commercial liability as a novice could be valued highly
enough to justify a well paid post if skilled enough.
If charity is going to house people for example instead of the state,
more donations to that charity would be required from the public. It can
work as this country has one of the best lifeboat services and wildlife
and anti-cruelty policing systems in the world.
One of the biggest problems with private charity at the moment is it
often fails to make best use of the time-rich and the cash-rich, for
instance getting donations from those with very low incomes when those
people may well be of more value helping out in their enterprises, such
as staffing a shop, as well as preserving their income from further loss.
There may be further incentives possible to tax relieve philanthropic
endeavors by wealthy people and firms.
Most current spending is necessary, but the problem lies is the lack of
democracy involved in the handing out process. For instance the causes
you think deserve support may be different from the governments.
It's a three way choice for the public. They work harder. They pay more
tax. They do for and give more to charity.
Thing is with this one is it isn't a choice a government alone can make
but rather more one for the citizen
There's people like me who are lazy and other souls who are selfish.
Lazy is in no way better than selfish but it is no worse. If a few more
like me got off their butts, and the others lost their greed, envy and
intolerence, we could have less taxes with more freedom to spend the
remainder but no less cut in social provision.
tell the people this.
For instance, businesses need to invest in disability employment
considerably. The word "invest" is important, because often an employee
who could be a commercial liability as a novice could be valued highly
enough to justify a well paid post if skilled enough.
If charity is going to house people for example instead of the state,
more donations to that charity would be required from the public. It can
work as this country has one of the best lifeboat services and wildlife
and anti-cruelty policing systems in the world.
One of the biggest problems with private charity at the moment is it
often fails to make best use of the time-rich and the cash-rich, for
instance getting donations from those with very low incomes when those
people may well be of more value helping out in their enterprises, such
as staffing a shop, as well as preserving their income from further loss.
There may be further incentives possible to tax relieve philanthropic
endeavors by wealthy people and firms.
Most current spending is necessary, but the problem lies is the lack of
democracy involved in the handing out process. For instance the causes
you think deserve support may be different from the governments.
It's a three way choice for the public. They work harder. They pay more
tax. They do for and give more to charity.
Thing is with this one is it isn't a choice a government alone can make
but rather more one for the citizen
There's people like me who are lazy and other souls who are selfish.
Lazy is in no way better than selfish but it is no worse. If a few more
like me got off their butts, and the others lost their greed, envy and
intolerence, we could have less taxes with more freedom to spend the
remainder but no less cut in social provision.
True Blue
Nov 1, 2012, 1:36:36 PM11/1/12
to
On Nov 1, 4:27 pm, Andy Wainwright
What you describe has been done in the US. It's called "localism" and
it cut the welfare bill dramatically. In an unlikely alliance
between Newt Gingrich and Clinton, the dole system was changed so that
people had to make their welfare claims much nearer the
true source of that money.
Taken to its extreme end, it would see me answering a hesitant knock
at my door, only to see you, Ishy, Blue, Sutartsorric and Gobbler in
a sorry gaggle, staring at the ground, twisting your caps in your
hands. After listening to your pathetic claims to my money, all bar
Gobbler
would be sent back up the drive with arseholes the diameter of my
toecaps. Gobbler would receive from me a proper share of what he
reasonably needs to live, as we true conservatives are fair people:-
the mentally disabled, rather than the merely lazy or terminally
envious,
should receive alms, however ungratefully received.
it cut the welfare bill dramatically. In an unlikely alliance
between Newt Gingrich and Clinton, the dole system was changed so that
people had to make their welfare claims much nearer the
true source of that money.
Taken to its extreme end, it would see me answering a hesitant knock
at my door, only to see you, Ishy, Blue, Sutartsorric and Gobbler in
a sorry gaggle, staring at the ground, twisting your caps in your
hands. After listening to your pathetic claims to my money, all bar
Gobbler
would be sent back up the drive with arseholes the diameter of my
toecaps. Gobbler would receive from me a proper share of what he
reasonably needs to live, as we true conservatives are fair people:-
the mentally disabled, rather than the merely lazy or terminally
envious,
should receive alms, however ungratefully received.
The gods have made us mad
Nov 1, 2012, 1:42:42 PM11/1/12
to
"True Blue" wrote in message
news:1ed6021d-0e2d-4ccf...@l12g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...
Taken to its extreme end, it would see me answering a hesitant knock
at my door, only to see you, Ishy, Blue, Sutartsorric and Gobbler in
a sorry gaggle, staring at the ground, twisting your caps in your
hands. After listening to your pathetic claims to my money, all bar
Gobbler
would be sent back up the drive with arseholes the diameter of my
toecaps. Gobbler would receive from me a proper share of what he
reasonably needs to live, as we true conservatives are fair people:-
the mentally disabled, rather than the merely lazy or terminally
envious,
should receive alms, however ungratefully received<<<<
You'd be continually answering the door, as bankers, Lords, politicians,
councillors, and assorted members of the royal family, all ratted their
respective tins under your nose.
True Blue
Nov 1, 2012, 1:53:48 PM11/1/12
to
On Nov 1, 5:42 pm, "The gods have made us mad"
That's the beauty of localism - your toecaps travel to all the best
sphincters.
sphincters.
Andy Wainwright
Nov 1, 2012, 3:55:17 PM11/1/12
to
actually want. And the answer tends to be that only the severely
disabled are the ones who don't want to work, and that is an issue of
practicality as opposed to morality. People want hand ups, not hand outs.
It's also interesting to note though that a non-ethical business is
actually a bigger liability on a society than any welfare claim. Better
to sit on your arse and get stoned than contribute to the torture and
repression of people and animals for example. That's the Tory moral
problem- they'd often moan more about torture equipment used in
consensual S&M than that sold for use on political prisoners.
The left need to change. Unfortunately a lot on the right don't
recognise their need for change.
True Blue
Nov 1, 2012, 3:58:13 PM11/1/12
to
On Nov 1, 7:55 pm, Andy Wainwright
No - they want hand-outs.
Andy Wainwright
Nov 1, 2012, 4:50:09 PM11/1/12
to
effectively gives homeless people a business that they can make money
with, selling a quality product.
Welfare in the UK is relatively generous, the problem is that state help
is withdrawn to those trying to get themselves out of poverty on their
own backs. Get a part time job, lose your housing benefit. Go to
college, lose your JSA, start a business, lose your income support- all
at a time when that person needs cash more than ever.
Voluntary is a word politicians have a huge problem with. Voluntary
means people making decisions for themselves, not politicians doing so
and enjoying their power. All three main parties are essentially
statist, much of the fringe more so.
An interesting idea may be to offer cash and carry vouchers at greater
face value than a conventional giro. Bundle it with a market traders
licence and straight away some has a proper job.
LebesgueMeasure
Nov 2, 2012, 6:38:06 AM11/2/12
to
"True Blue" <garyb...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1ed6021d-0e2d-4ccf...@l12g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...
>
rely on the charitable impulses of psychotic arseholes like you. The vast
majority of disabled people have worked for decades before they needed to
claim disability benefits, such as my mother, who received DLA for the last
ten years of her life. She paid for her benefits and there will be bloody
hell to pay for Tory louts like you should such people have to go cap it
hand to tax dodging parasites like you.
news:1ed6021d-0e2d-4ccf...@l12g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...
>
> Taken to its extreme end, it would see me answering a hesitant knock
> at my door, only to see you, Ishy, Blue, Sutartsorric and Gobbler in
> a sorry gaggle, staring at the ground, twisting your caps in your
> hands.
>
>
And that's why the welfare state was founded so that people did not have to
> at my door, only to see you, Ishy, Blue, Sutartsorric and Gobbler in
> a sorry gaggle, staring at the ground, twisting your caps in your
> hands.
>
>
rely on the charitable impulses of psychotic arseholes like you. The vast
majority of disabled people have worked for decades before they needed to
claim disability benefits, such as my mother, who received DLA for the last
ten years of her life. She paid for her benefits and there will be bloody
hell to pay for Tory louts like you should such people have to go cap it
hand to tax dodging parasites like you.
Andy Wainwright
Nov 2, 2012, 4:06:06 PM11/2/12
to
pond, you gotta have pondlife, no pondlife, no pond. There's a lot of
people who complain about those who just take a giro from the post
office to the pub, but have the nerve to complain when both shut!
In my experience, almost all of those capable of work will work, paid or
voluntary. Daytime TV is after all pretty damn crap.
There's a big difference though between being able to do some work and
fulfilling a formal employment contract. A guy with bipolar, cancer,
arthritis, likely need three months off a year- who would employ such a
person without some state help?
At the moment the odds of making money honestly are stacked against huge
sections of the community, whilst you'll get rich psychos brokering arms
deals to repressive dictators and spending their earnings on killing
endangered wildlife- are such people any more use to society than the
guy who stays at home, smokes pot and watches Jeremy Kyle. At least the
latter frequents the offy and paper shop, putting his cash into the
local people's ecomomy.
Bert
Nov 2, 2012, 4:13:42 PM11/2/12
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In news:koNks.786$3u1...@en-nntp-02.am2.easynews.com "LebesgueMeasure"
neighbors without the bother of having to look them in the eye.
--
be...@iphouse.com St. Paul, MN
<lebe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> And that's why the welfare state was founded so that people did not
> have to rely on the charitable impulses of psychotic arseholes like
> you.
Much cleaner to have government thugs extort money from their
> And that's why the welfare state was founded so that people did not
> have to rely on the charitable impulses of psychotic arseholes like
> you.
neighbors without the bother of having to look them in the eye.
--
be...@iphouse.com St. Paul, MN
®i©ardo
Nov 2, 2012, 5:23:21 PM11/2/12
to
whether those in genuine need are going to get a look in.
--
Moving things in still pictures
jnugent
Nov 2, 2012, 10:40:56 PM11/2/12
to
On 01/11/2012 16:50, Andy Wainwright wrote:
> One particularly succesful charity is the Big Issue Foundation. This
> effectively gives homeless people a business that they can make money
> with, selling a quality product.
You've never actually read a copy, then?
> One particularly succesful charity is the Big Issue Foundation. This
> effectively gives homeless people a business that they can make money
> with, selling a quality product.
jnugent
Nov 2, 2012, 10:42:30 PM11/2/12
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On 02/11/2012 16:06, Andy Wainwright wrote:
> In my experience, almost all of those capable of work will work, paid
> or voluntary...
> In my experience, almost all of those capable of work will work, paid
... or undeclared.
LebesgueMeasure
Nov 3, 2012, 8:10:52 PM11/3/12
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"Bert" <be...@iphouse.com> wrote in message
news:XnsA0FF9AE9B8F...@216.250.188.141...
When you evade your taxes, do you look your fellow citizens in the eye?
news:XnsA0FF9AE9B8F...@216.250.188.141...
LebesgueMeasure
Nov 3, 2012, 8:14:36 PM11/3/12
to
"®i©ardo" <he...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:57adnUyzpaVbpAnN...@giganews.com...
So you want personal control to see and decide where the money goes? You
want to be part of the decision making process when a disabled person
applies for assistance? Do you also want to make sure that the army spends
you money efficiently? Want a trip to Afganistan to personally oversee it?
And how would you have the time to do all this? You must be a workshy
parasite to have so much time on your hands.
news:57adnUyzpaVbpAnN...@giganews.com...
want to be part of the decision making process when a disabled person
applies for assistance? Do you also want to make sure that the army spends
you money efficiently? Want a trip to Afganistan to personally oversee it?
And how would you have the time to do all this? You must be a workshy
parasite to have so much time on your hands.
®i©ardo
Nov 4, 2012, 5:41:22 AM11/4/12
to
On 04/11/2012 00:14, LebesgueMeasure wrote:
> "展奄rdo" <he...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
Hmm, worried about YOUR rake off being looked at are you? At least you
can be totally counted as being amongst those that have served in the
armed forces.
Having worked for over 50 years, including the armed forces, I've
contributed more than enough to the system and still do. I just don't
like seeing public funds wasted on work-shy tossers who are far more
physically fit than I am.
Unfortunately the founders of the "welfare state", such as Atlee - he of
the "free" milk for every "child" up to the age of 18" - had this
cock-eyed vision that taking money from those who worked and handing it
out willy-nilly to those who didn't was promoting "equality". He also
had this great idea of a universal system of state handouts, regardless
of whether the recipients needed them or not. The trouble is, once you
set up a system like that it is then considered to be a "right" rather
than something that should be strictly restricted to those who need it.
Surely it is common sense for such things to be restricted to those
actually in need? Let's face it, Gordon Brown's bus passes for
millionaire pensioners is part of the same stupidity!
> "展奄rdo" <he...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
can be totally counted as being amongst those that have served in the
armed forces.
Having worked for over 50 years, including the armed forces, I've
contributed more than enough to the system and still do. I just don't
like seeing public funds wasted on work-shy tossers who are far more
physically fit than I am.
Unfortunately the founders of the "welfare state", such as Atlee - he of
the "free" milk for every "child" up to the age of 18" - had this
cock-eyed vision that taking money from those who worked and handing it
out willy-nilly to those who didn't was promoting "equality". He also
had this great idea of a universal system of state handouts, regardless
of whether the recipients needed them or not. The trouble is, once you
set up a system like that it is then considered to be a "right" rather
than something that should be strictly restricted to those who need it.
Surely it is common sense for such things to be restricted to those
actually in need? Let's face it, Gordon Brown's bus passes for
millionaire pensioners is part of the same stupidity!
®i©ardo
Nov 4, 2012, 5:42:53 AM11/4/12
to
Cynic
Nov 5, 2012, 8:11:25 AM11/5/12
to
On Sun, 4 Nov 2012 00:14:36 -0000, "LebesgueMeasure"
<lebe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>So you want personal control to see and decide where the money goes? You
>want to be part of the decision making process when a disabled person
>applies for assistance?
If people were given assistence from their close community rather than
<lebe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>So you want personal control to see and decide where the money goes? You
>want to be part of the decision making process when a disabled person
>applies for assistance?
a government office, that scrutiny happens automatically. In
countries with no state benefits, it is what happens IME. Anyone who
is genuinely down on their luck or unable to work for health or other
reasons will be helped by the people in their immediate community.
*But* they won't get away with swinging the lead, and they will be
expected to return the favour by helping out in ways that they are
able to help.
> Do you also want to make sure that the army spends
>you money efficiently? Want a trip to Afganistan to personally oversee it?
Afghanistan at all, and I believe that anyone who is interested enough
to look up the facts can quite legitimately criticise a great deal of
our defence spending policy.
--
Cynic
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