Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution justifies Zelaya's removal
Matt
> ARTICLE 239. - The citizen who has carried out the ownership of the Executive authority could not be President or Vice-president of the Republic. The one that break this disposition or propose its reform, as well as those supports that it direct or indirectly, will stop immediately in the performance of their respective positions and will be disqualified by ten (10) years for the exercise of all public function.
> ARTICLE 239 .- The citizen who has ownership of the executive branch may not be President or Vice President of the Republic.
>
> Anyone who violates this provision or the proposed reform, and support those who directly or indirectly, immediately cease the discharge of their duties and shall be disqualified for ten (10) years to exercise any public function.
http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Constitutions/Honduras/hond05.html
> ARTICULO 239.- El ciudadano que haya desempe�ado la titularidad del Poder Ejecutivo no podr� ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la Rep�blica.
>
> El que quebrante esta disposici�n o proponga su reforma, as� como aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesar�n de inmediato en el desempe�o de sus respectivos cargos y quedar�n inhabilitados por diez (10) a�os para el ejercicio de toda funci�n p�blica.
Matt
The Honduran constitution requires the revocation of the citizenship of
anyone who promotes the abolition of the presidential term limit:
> ARTICLE 42. - The quality of citizen is lost: ... 5. To urge, to promote or to support the continuismo or the re-election of the President of the Republic;
> ARTICULO 42.- La calidad de ciudadano se pierde: ... 5. Por incitar, promover o apoyar el continuismo o la reelecci�n del Presidente de la Rep�blica; y,
The Honduran constitution may not be changed to abolish the presidential
term limit:
> ARTICLE 374. - They will not be able to reform, in any case, the previous article, the present article, the constitutional articles that talk about the form of government, to the national territory, the presidential period, the prohibition to be again President of the Republic, the citizen has carried out who it under any title and the referring one to those who cannot be Presidents of the Republic by the subsequent period.
> ARTICULO 374.- No podr�n reformarse, en ning�n caso, el art�culo anterior, el presente art�culo, los art�culos constitucionales que se refieren a la forma de gobierno, al territorio nacional, al per�odo presidencial, a la prohibici�n para ser nuevamente Presidente de la Rep�blica, el ciudadano que lo haya desempe�ado bajo cualquier t�tulo y el referente a quienes no pueden ser Presidentes de la Rep�blica por el per�odo subsiguiente.
krp
"Matt" <ma...@themattfella.xxxyyz.com> wrote in message
news:iBB2m.184$IU6...@newsfe05.iad...
> Matt wrote:
>> babelfish translation:
>>
>>> ARTICLE 239. - The citizen who has carried out the ownership of the
>>> Executive authority could not be President or Vice-president of the
>>> Republic. The one that break this disposition or propose its reform, as
>>> well as those supports that it direct or indirectly, will stop
>>> immediately in the performance of their respective positions and will be
>>> disqualified by ten (10) years for the exercise of all public function.
>>
>>
>>> ARTICLE 239 .- The citizen who has ownership of the executive branch may
>>> not be President or Vice President of the Republic.
>>>
>>> Anyone who violates this provision or the proposed reform, and support
>>> those who directly or indirectly, immediately cease the discharge of
>>> their duties and shall be disqualified for ten (10) years to exercise
>>> any public function.
>>
>>
>> http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Constitutions/Honduras/hond05.html
>>
>>> ARTICULO 239.- El ciudadano que haya desempe�ado la titularidad del
>>> Poder Ejecutivo no podr� ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la
>>> Rep�blica.
>>>
>>> El que quebrante esta disposici�n o proponga su reforma, as� como
>>> aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesar�n de inmediato en
>>> el desempe�o de sus respectivos cargos y quedar�n inhabilitados por diez
>>> (10) a�os para el ejercicio de toda funci�n p�blica.
>>
>
>
> The Honduran constitution requires the revocation of the citizenship of
> anyone who promotes the abolition of the presidential term limit:
The issue here is that Zeleya was seeking to follow in the footsteps of his
mentors, Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez to establish themselves as "President
for life." Chavez has suggested that Venezuela will intervene militarily in
Honduras to IMPOSE a permanent socialist government on it. Styled after the
Cuba model.
Paulie Walnutts
> "Matt" <m...@themattfella.xxxyyz.com> wrote in message
>
> news:iBB2m.184$IU6...@newsfe05.iad...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Matt wrote:
> >> babelfish translation:
>
> >>> ARTICLE 239. - The citizen who has carried out the ownership of the
> >>> Executive authority could not be President or Vice-president of the
> >>> Republic. The one that break this disposition or propose its reform, as
> >>> well as those supports that it direct or indirectly, will stop
> >>> immediately in the performance of their respective positions and will be
> >>> disqualified by ten (10) years for the exercise of all public function.
>
> >>> ARTICLE 239 .- The citizen who has ownership of the executive branch may
> >>> not be President or Vice President of the Republic.
>
> >>> Anyone who violates this provision or the proposed reform, and support
> >>> those who directly or indirectly, immediately cease the discharge of
> >>> their duties and shall be disqualified for ten (10) years to exercise
> >>> any public function.
>
> >>http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Constitutions/Honduras/hond05.html
>
> >>> Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la
> >>> República.
>
> >>> El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, así como
> >>> aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de inmediato en
> >>> el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos y quedarán inhabilitados por diez
> >>> (10) años para el ejercicio de toda función pública.
>
> > The Honduran constitution requires the revocation of the citizenship of
> > anyone who promotes the abolition of the presidential term limit:
>
> The issue here is that Zeleya was seeking to follow in the footsteps of his
> mentors, Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez to establish themselves as "President
> for life." Chavez has suggested that Venezuela will intervene militarily in
> Honduras to IMPOSE a permanent socialist government on it. Styled after the
>
> - Show quoted text -
And Obama agrees with Chavez,Castro and Zeleya. Look for Hussein to
attempt the same thing before it's all over with.
Jeff George
news:a578be9d-0788-4129...@s6g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:
> And Obama agrees with Chavez,Castro and Zeleya. Look for Hussein to
> attempt the same thing before it's all over with.
Excellent! And then the purge of the rightards can start legally.
--
JG, former Quarterback and Lt. General SWIFT (Socialist Workers
Infiltrating Federal Targets)
Docky Wocky
'The issue here is that Zeleya was seeking to follow in the footsteps of his
mentors, Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez to establish themselves as "President
for life." Chavez has suggested that Venezuela will intervene militarily in
Honduras to IMPOSE a permanent socialist government on it. Styled after the
Cuba model..."
___________________
So far, Hugo has done exactly what he was predicted to do.
Next phase is kicking his ass, militarily, then the inevitable run down to
being hung on a lamp post by his own boys.
Never fails.
Matt
The Honduran constitution assigns the armed forces to maintain the
alternation of the Presidency:
> ARTICLE 272. - The Armed Forces of Honduras, are a National Institution of permanent, professional, non-political, obedient and essentially nondeliberative character. They are constituted to defend territorial integrity and the sovereignty of the Republic, to maintain La Paz, the public order and the empire of the Constitution, the principles of free suffrage and the alternabilidad in the exercise of the Presidency of the Republic. They will cooperate with the National Police in the Conservation of the public order.
> ARTICULO 272.- Las Fuerzas Armadas de Honduras, son una Instituci�n Nacional de car�cter permanente, esencialmente profesional, apol�tica, obediente y no deliberante.
>
> Se constituyen para defender la integridad territorial y la soberan�a de la Rep�blica, mantener la paz, el orden p�blico y el imperio de la Constituci�n, los principios de libre sufragio y la alternabilidad en el ejercicio de la Presidencia de la Rep�blica.
>
> Cooperar�n con la Polic�a Nacional en la Conservaci�n del orden p�blico.
Obviously there is hardly a greater taboo in the Honduran constitution
than a president serving more than one term.
Jeffrey Turner
> Matt wrote:
>> babelfish translation:
>>
>>> ARTICLE 239. - The citizen who has carried out the ownership of the
>>> Executive authority could not be President or Vice-president of the
>>> Republic. The one that break this disposition or propose its reform,
>>> as well as those supports that it direct or indirectly, will stop
>>> immediately in the performance of their respective positions and will
>>> be disqualified by ten (10) years for the exercise of all public
>>> function.
>>
>>
>>> ARTICLE 239 .- The citizen who has ownership of the executive branch
>>> may not be President or Vice President of the Republic.
>>>
>>> Anyone who violates this provision or the proposed reform, and
>>> support those who directly or indirectly, immediately cease the
>>> discharge of their duties and shall be disqualified for ten (10)
>>> years to exercise any public function.
>>
>>
>> http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Constitutions/Honduras/hond05.html
>>
>>> Poder Ejecutivo no podr� ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la
>>> Rep�blica.
>>>
>>> El que quebrante esta disposici�n o proponga su reforma, as� como
>>> aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesar�n de inmediato
>>> en el desempe�o de sus respectivos cargos y quedar�n inhabilitados
>>> por diez (10) a�os para el ejercicio de toda funci�n p�blica.
>>
>
>
> The Honduran constitution requires the revocation of the citizenship of
> anyone who promotes the abolition of the presidential term limit:
>
>> ARTICLE 42. - The quality of citizen is lost: ... 5. To urge, to
>> promote or to support the continuismo or the re-election of the
>> President of the Republic;
>
>> ARTICULO 42.- La calidad de ciudadano se pierde: ... 5. Por incitar,
>> Rep�blica; y,
>
> The Honduran constitution may not be changed to abolish the presidential
> term limit:
>
>> ARTICLE 374. - They will not be able to reform, in any case, the
>> previous article, the present article, the constitutional articles
>> that talk about the form of government, to the national territory, the
>> presidential period, the prohibition to be again President of the
>> Republic, the citizen has carried out who it under any title and the
>> referring one to those who cannot be Presidents of the Republic by the
>> subsequent period.
>
>> anterior, el presente art�culo, los art�culos constitucionales que se
>> refieren a la forma de gobierno, al territorio nacional, al per�odo
>> presidencial, a la prohibici�n para ser nuevamente Presidente de la
>> Rep�blica, el ciudadano que lo haya desempe�ado bajo cualquier t�tulo
>> y el referente a quienes no pueden ser Presidentes de la Rep�blica por
>> el per�odo subsiguiente.
The odd thing, and a fact that hasn�t made it into a lot of press
accounts or snap judgments about the situation, is that the language in
question is not about re-election, but rather would have asked whether
or not the public wanted to have a referendum in November about whether
or not to call a constitutional convention to write a new constitution.
As such, it is unclear to me at the moment why the accusation was that
Zelaya was seeking immediate re-election, as even if his plebiscite had
been approved, I cannot see how it would have led to be him being on the
ballot in November (which is when the next presidential term, which
starts in January, is set to be filled). I will continue to research
that issue.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/
Once again the wingnuts oppose democracy and the civilized world.
--Jeff
--
The comfort of the wealthy has always
depended upon an abundant supply of
the poor. --Voltaire
George
we'll have to do it in the US when Obama birth certificate is 'leaked'.
Matt
The Honudran Constitution defines infractions against the alternability
of the presidency as treason against the country:
> ARTICLE 4. - The government form is republican, democratic and representative. It is exerted by three powers: Legislative, Executive and Judicial, complementary and independent and without subordination relations. The alternabilidad in the exercise of the Presidency of the Republic is obligatory. The infraction of this norm constitutes crime of treason to the Mother country.
> ARTICULO 4.- La forma de gobierno es republicana, democr�tica y representativa. Se ejerce por tres poderes: Legislativo, Ejecutivo y Judicial, complementarios e independientes y sin relaciones de subordinaci�n.
>
> La alternabilidad en el ejercicio de la Presidencia de la Rep�blica es obligatoria.
>
> La infracci�n de esta norma constituye delito de traici�n a la Patria.
Jeffrey Turner
The plebiscite was perfectly legal. The coup was not.
Ramon F Herrera
> Matt wrote:
> > Matt wrote:
> >> Matt wrote:
> >>> Matt wrote:
> >>>> babelfish translation:
>
> >>>>> ARTICLE 239. - The citizen who has carried out the ownership of the
> >>>>> Executive authority could not be President or Vice-president of the
> >>>>> Republic. The one that break this disposition or propose its
> >>>>> reform, as well as those supports that it direct or indirectly,
> >>>>> will stop immediately in the performance of their respective
> >>>>> positions and will be disqualified by ten (10) years for the
> >>>>> exercise of all public function.
>
> >>>>> ARTICLE 239 .- The citizen who has ownership of the executive
> >>>>> branch may not be President or Vice President of the Republic.
>
> >>>>> Anyone who violates this provision or the proposed reform, and
> >>>>> support those who directly or indirectly, immediately cease the
> >>>>> discharge of their duties and shall be disqualified for ten (10)
> >>>>> years to exercise any public function.
>
> >>>>http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Constitutions/Honduras/hond05.html
>
> >>>>> Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la
> >>>>> República.
>
> >>>>> El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, así como
> >>>>> aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de
> >>>>> inhabilitados por diez (10) años para el ejercicio de toda función
> >>>>> pública.
>
> >>> The Honduran constitution requires the revocation of the citizenship
> >>> of anyone who promotes the abolition of the presidential term limit:
>
> >>>> ARTICLE 42. - The quality of citizen is lost: ... 5. To urge, to
> >>>> promote or to support the continuismo or the re-election of the
> >>>> President of the Republic;
>
> >>>> ARTICULO 42.- La calidad de ciudadano se pierde: ... 5. Por incitar,
> >>>> la República; y,
>
> >>> The Honduran constitution may not be changed to abolish the
> >>> presidential term limit:
>
> >>>> ARTICLE 374. - They will not be able to reform, in any case, the
> >>>> previous article, the present article, the constitutional articles
> >>>> that talk about the form of government, to the national territory,
> >>>> the presidential period, the prohibition to be again President of
> >>>> the Republic, the citizen has carried out who it under any title and
> >>>> the referring one to those who cannot be Presidents of the Republic
> >>>> by the subsequent period.
>
> >>>> anterior, el presente artículo, los artículos constitucionales que
> >>>> se refieren a la forma de gobierno, al territorio nacional, al
> >>>> Presidente de la República, el ciudadano que lo haya desempeñado
> >>>> bajo cualquier título y el referente a quienes no pueden ser
> >>>> Presidentes de la República por el período subsiguiente.
>
> >> The Honduran constitution assigns the armed forces to maintain the
> >> alternation of the Presidency:
>
> >>> ARTICLE 272. - The Armed Forces of Honduras, are a National
> >>> Institution of permanent, professional, non-political, obedient and
> >>> essentially nondeliberative character. They are constituted to defend
> >>> territorial integrity and the sovereignty of the Republic, to
> >>> maintain La Paz, the public order and the empire of the Constitution,
> >>> the principles of free suffrage and the alternabilidad in the
> >>> exercise of the Presidency of the Republic. They will cooperate with
> >>> the National Police in the Conservation of the public order.
>
> >>> Nacional de carácter permanente, esencialmente profesional,
> >>> apolítica, obediente y no deliberante.
>
> >>> Se constituyen para defender la integridad territorial y la soberanía
> >>> de la República, mantener la paz, el orden público y el imperio de la
> >>> Constitución, los principios de libre sufragio y la alternabilidad en
> >>> el ejercicio de la Presidencia de la República.
>
> >>> Cooperarán con la Policía Nacional en la Conservación del orden público.
>
> >> Obviously there is hardly a greater taboo in the Honduran constitution
> >> than a president serving more than one term.
>
> > The Honudran Constitution defines infractions against the alternability
> > of the presidency as treason against the country:
>
> The plebiscite was perfectly legal. The coup was not.
>
> --Jeff
In reference to the plebiscite, you have no idea what you are talking
about, Jeff.
For starters, there was never a plebiscite. Watch CNN en Español.
-Ramon (from Barquisimeto, Venezuela)
krp
"Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:csSdnWspAdRsidDX...@posted.localnet...
> The odd thing, and a fact that hasn�t made it into a lot of press
> accounts or snap judgments about the situation, is that the language in
> question is not about re-election, but rather would have asked whether
> or not the public wanted to have a referendum in November about whether
> or not to call a constitutional convention to write a new constitution.
> As such, it is unclear to me at the moment why the accusation was that
> Zelaya was seeking immediate re-election, as even if his plebiscite had
> been approved, I cannot see how it would have led to be him being on the
> ballot in November (which is when the next presidential term, which
> starts in January, is set to be filled). I will continue to research
> that issue.
>
> http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/
>
> Once again the wingnuts oppose democracy and the civilized world.
Zelaya wanted to follow in the footsteps of his mentors, Castro and
Chavez to seek the office of President for life. I suggest you study Cuba
and Venezuela for a CLUE as to the real significance of what Zelaya was
trying to do. Works when you walk in knowing you have the mechanism to get
98% of the vote. This is "democracy" in your opinion? Ask the people of Cuba
and Venezuela about THEIR democracy. You might get an answer when they stop
laughing at the FOOL who asked the question.
krp
Really Jeff? Illegal? So you are saying that a president CANNOT under
ANY circumstances be IMPEACHED? You conveniently ignore that the Honduran
Supreme Court deemed what Zelaya was doing was criminal, and that the
Honduran legislature IMPEACHED him, the Army just carried out the decision
after Zelaya refused to give up the office. THAT seems legal to me. Unless
you are a fan of people who not only PROCLAIM themselves "PRESIDENT FOR
LIFE" but begin to act in DICTATORIAL ways. Maybe you LIKE living in a
dictatorship. Apparently the people of Honduras DON'T!
Jeffrey Turner
> On Jul 2, 11:20 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>> Matt wrote:
>>> Matt wrote:
>>>> Matt wrote:
>>>>> Matt wrote:
>>>>>> babelfish translation:
>>>>>>> ARTICLE 239. - The citizen who has carried out the ownership of the
>>>>>>> Executive authority could not be President or Vice-president of the
>>>>>>> Republic. The one that break this disposition or propose its
>>>>>>> reform, as well as those supports that it direct or indirectly,
>>>>>>> will stop immediately in the performance of their respective
>>>>>>> positions and will be disqualified by ten (10) years for the
>>>>>>> exercise of all public function.
>>>>>>> ARTICLE 239 .- The citizen who has ownership of the executive
>>>>>>> branch may not be President or Vice President of the Republic.
>>>>>>> Anyone who violates this provision or the proposed reform, and
>>>>>>> support those who directly or indirectly, immediately cease the
>>>>>>> discharge of their duties and shall be disqualified for ten (10)
>>>>>>> years to exercise any public function.
>>>>>> http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Constitutions/Honduras/hond05.html
>>>>>>> Poder Ejecutivo no podr� ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la
>>>>>>> Rep�blica.
>>>>>>> El que quebrante esta disposici�n o proponga su reforma, as� como
>>>>>>> aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesar�n de
>>>>>>> inmediato en el desempe�o de sus respectivos cargos y quedar�n
>>>>>>> p�blica.
>>>>> The Honduran constitution requires the revocation of the citizenship
>>>>> of anyone who promotes the abolition of the presidential term limit:
>>>>>> ARTICLE 42. - The quality of citizen is lost: ... 5. To urge, to
>>>>>> promote or to support the continuismo or the re-election of the
>>>>>> President of the Republic;
>>>>>> ARTICULO 42.- La calidad de ciudadano se pierde: ... 5. Por incitar,
>>>>> The Honduran constitution may not be changed to abolish the
>>>>> presidential term limit:
>>>>>> ARTICLE 374. - They will not be able to reform, in any case, the
>>>>>> previous article, the present article, the constitutional articles
>>>>>> that talk about the form of government, to the national territory,
>>>>>> the presidential period, the prohibition to be again President of
>>>>>> the Republic, the citizen has carried out who it under any title and
>>>>>> the referring one to those who cannot be Presidents of the Republic
>>>>>> by the subsequent period.
>>>>>> se refieren a la forma de gobierno, al territorio nacional, al
>>>>>> Presidente de la Rep�blica, el ciudadano que lo haya desempe�ado
>>>>>> Presidentes de la Rep�blica por el per�odo subsiguiente.
>>>> The Honduran constitution assigns the armed forces to maintain the
>>>> alternation of the Presidency:
>>>>> ARTICLE 272. - The Armed Forces of Honduras, are a National
>>>>> Institution of permanent, professional, non-political, obedient and
>>>>> essentially nondeliberative character. They are constituted to defend
>>>>> territorial integrity and the sovereignty of the Republic, to
>>>>> maintain La Paz, the public order and the empire of the Constitution,
>>>>> the principles of free suffrage and the alternabilidad in the
>>>>> exercise of the Presidency of the Republic. They will cooperate with
>>>>> the National Police in the Conservation of the public order.
>>>>> Nacional de car�cter permanente, esencialmente profesional,
>>>>> apol�tica, obediente y no deliberante.
>>>>> Se constituyen para defender la integridad territorial y la soberan�a
>>>>> Constituci�n, los principios de libre sufragio y la alternabilidad en
>>>>> el ejercicio de la Presidencia de la Rep�blica.
>>>>> Cooperar�n con la Polic�a Nacional en la Conservaci�n del orden p�blico.
>>>> than a president serving more than one term.
>>> The Honudran Constitution defines infractions against the alternability
>>> of the presidency as treason against the country:
>
> > The plebiscite was perfectly legal. The coup was not.
> >
> > --Jeff
>
>
> In reference to the plebiscite, you have no idea what you are talking
> about, Jeff.
>
There wasn't a plbiscite because of the coup.
Jeffrey Turner
A coup isn't impeachment, fascist.
> You conveniently ignore that the
> Honduran Supreme Court deemed what Zelaya was doing was criminal,
No they didn't.
> and
> that the Honduran legislature IMPEACHED him,
No they didn't.
> the Army just carried out
> the decision after Zelaya refused to give up the office. THAT seems
> legal to me. Unless you are a fan of people who not only PROCLAIM
> themselves "PRESIDENT FOR LIFE" but begin to act in DICTATORIAL ways.
> Maybe you LIKE living in a dictatorship. Apparently the people of
> Honduras DON'T!
You're a lying fascist.
Jeffrey Turner
You're delusional.
Matt
> -Ramon (from Barquisimeto, Venezuela)
Curious ... were you born in Venezuela, if you don't mind answering?
krp
>>>> The Honudran Constitution defines infractions against the alternability
>>>> of the presidency as treason against the country:
>>>
>>> The plebiscite was perfectly legal. The coup was not.
>
>> Really Jeff? Illegal? So you are saying that a president CANNOT under
>> ANY circumstances be IMPEACHED?
> A coup isn't impeachment, fascist.
So the VOTE of the Honduran legislature was a "COUP?" The decision of
the Supreme Court of Honduras a "coup?" The court found his actions vilated
the nation's constitution and the Honduran Legislature voted impeachment. He
refused to surrender his office. The military arrested him and booted him
from the country, they COULD HAVE just shot him.
>> You conveniently ignore that the Honduran Supreme Court deemed what
>> Zelaya was doing was criminal,
> No they didn't.
Uh, YES, they did.
"With an arrest warrant from the Honduran Supreme Court (hat tip NYkrinDC),
the Honduran military today removed from office President Manuel Zelaya, a
political protege of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, for proceeding with
an illegal referendum designed to lay the groundwork for an unconstitutional
additional term in office. Zeleya has been sent into exile in Costa Rica.
Zelaya's referendum had been rejected by the Supreme Court, the Congress and
even his own political party. Zelaya had ordered the military to support the
referendum, when Army chief Gen Romeo Vasquez refused, Zelaya attempted to
fire him and subsequently took possession of the ballots by leading a large
crowd of supporters to a military base where they had been impounded."
Is it that YOU v iew using the MILITARY to "ENFORCE" the political will
of "El Presidente" is Democratic? That voting to make him "PRESIDENT FOR
LIFE" under the guns of the military is how YOU see a democratic process
working?
>> and that the Honduran legislature IMPEACHED him,
> No they didn't.
YES they did!
>> the Army just carried out
>> the decision after Zelaya refused to give up the office. THAT seems
>> legal to me. Unless you are a fan of people who not only PROCLAIM
>> themselves "PRESIDENT FOR LIFE" but begin to act in DICTATORIAL ways.
>> Maybe you LIKE living in a dictatorship. Apparently the people of
>> Honduras DON'T!
>
> You're a lying fascist.
Easy to call names. I bet YOU think Chavez and Castro are Democrats too.
There are some people who believe that being "democratically elected"
does NOT confer on a president the mantle of absolute power. Both Fidel
Castro and Hugo Chavez were democratically elected. I might mention that Kim
Il Jung of North Korea also was, as was Josef Stalin, Pol Pot and Adolph
Hitler, with some minor thugs like Saddam Hussein and Iran's Achmadinejad.
Being elected does NOT mean you can get to do whatever you want. Except
perhaps in YOUR beliefs.
krp
>> Zelaya wanted to follow in the footsteps of his mentors, Castro and
>> Chavez to seek the office of President for life. I suggest you study Cuba
>> and Venezuela for a CLUE as to the real significance of what Zelaya was
>> trying to do. Works when you walk in knowing you have the mechanism to
>> get 98% of the vote. This is "democracy" in your opinion? Ask the people
>> of Cuba and Venezuela about THEIR democracy. You might get an answer when
>> they stop laughing at the FOOL who asked the question.
>
> You're delusional.
Really? Be specific. About what? That Zeleya was CLOSE CLOSE buddies
with the Castros and Chavez? Are you claiming that isn't true? Are you
claiming that the "REFERENDUM" that Zeleya sought was to make him "President
for life?" Or do you wish to debate with me that Cuba and Venezuela are
great democracies? PICK one or all to to joust with me about.
Jeffrey Turner
> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>>> The Honudran Constitution defines infractions against the
>>>>> alternability of the presidency as treason against the country:
>>>>
>>>> The plebiscite was perfectly legal. The coup was not.
>>
>>> Really Jeff? Illegal? So you are saying that a president CANNOT
>>> under ANY circumstances be IMPEACHED?
>
>> A coup isn't impeachment, fascist.
>
> So the VOTE of the Honduran legislature was a "COUP?" The decision
> of the Supreme Court of Honduras a "coup?" The court found his actions
> vilated the nation's constitution and the Honduran Legislature voted
> impeachment. He refused to surrender his office. The military arrested
> him and booted him from the country, they COULD HAVE just shot him.
>
>>> You conveniently ignore that the Honduran Supreme Court deemed what
>>> Zelaya was doing was criminal,
>
>> No they didn't.
>
> Uh, YES, they did.
>
> http://zenpundit.com/?cat=583
Sorry, my Spanish isn't that good.
In 1957, Castro also signed the Manifesto of the Sierra Maestra [42] in
which he agreed to call elections under the Electoral Code of 1943
within the first 18 months of his time in power and to restore all of
the provisions of the Constitution of 1940 that had been suspended under
Batista. While he took steps to implement some of the measures in the
Manifesto upon coming into power, Cuba failed to have elections, the
most important part of the program, within the allotted time.
Castro's slogan was "Revolution first, elections later".[47]
On May 1, 1961, Castro declared Cuba as socialist state and officially
abolished elections.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Casto
> and Hugo Chavez were democratically elected. I might mention that
> Kim Il Jung of North Korea also was,
Although Kim is not required to stand for popular election to his key
offices, he is unanimously elected to the Supreme People's Assembly
every five years, representing a military constituency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_jong_il
> as was Josef Stalin,
Lenin and Lev Kamenev helped to have Stalin appointed as General
Secretary in 1922
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Stalin
> Pol Pot and
The newly-established Representative Assembly held its first plenary
meeting on April 11-13, electing a new government with Pol Pot as its
leader.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_pot
Well, "democratically elected" by his cadre of leaders of the Khmer
Rouge. As is typical for you fascists, you think that's enough of an
election.
> Adolph Hitler, with some minor thugs like Saddam Hussein and Iran's
> Achmadinejad. Being elected does NOT mean you can get to do whatever you
> want. Except perhaps in YOUR beliefs.
You're a lying fascist, who is scared of democracy - just like the
Honduran generals.
Ramon F Herrera
> Ramon F Herrera wrote:
> > On Jul 2, 11:20 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
> >> Matt wrote:
> >>> Matt wrote:
> >>>> Matt wrote:
> >>>>> Matt wrote:
> >>>>>> babelfish translation:
> >>>>>>> ARTICLE 239. - The citizen who has carried out the ownership of the
> >>>>>>> Executive authority could not be President or Vice-president of the
> >>>>>>> Republic. The one that break this disposition or propose its
> >>>>>>> reform, as well as those supports that it direct or indirectly,
> >>>>>>> will stop immediately in the performance of their respective
> >>>>>>> positions and will be disqualified by ten (10) years for the
> >>>>>>> exercise of all public function.
> >>>>>>> ARTICLE 239 .- The citizen who has ownership of the executive
> >>>>>>> branch may not be President or Vice President of the Republic.
> >>>>>>> Anyone who violates this provision or the proposed reform, and
> >>>>>>> support those who directly or indirectly, immediately cease the
> >>>>>>> discharge of their duties and shall be disqualified for ten (10)
> >>>>>>> years to exercise any public function.
> >>>>>>http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Constitutions/Honduras/hond05.html
> >>>>>>> Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la
> >>>>>>> República.
> >>>>>>> El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, así como
> >>>>>>> aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de
> >>>>>>> inmediato en el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos y quedarán
> >>>>>>> pública.
> >>>>> The Honduran constitution requires the revocation of the citizenship
> >>>>> of anyone who promotes the abolition of the presidential term limit:
> >>>>>> ARTICLE 42. - The quality of citizen is lost: ... 5. To urge, to
> >>>>>> promote or to support the continuismo or the re-election of the
> >>>>>> President of the Republic;
> >>>>>> ARTICULO 42.- La calidad de ciudadano se pierde: ... 5. Por incitar,
> >>>>> The Honduran constitution may not be changed to abolish the
> >>>>> presidential term limit:
> >>>>>> ARTICLE 374. - They will not be able to reform, in any case, the
> >>>>>> previous article, the present article, the constitutional articles
> >>>>>> that talk about the form of government, to the national territory,
> >>>>>> the presidential period, the prohibition to be again President of
> >>>>>> the Republic, the citizen has carried out who it under any title and
> >>>>>> the referring one to those who cannot be Presidents of the Republic
> >>>>>> by the subsequent period.
> >>>>>> se refieren a la forma de gobierno, al territorio nacional, al
> >>>>>> Presidente de la República, el ciudadano que lo haya desempeñado
> >>>>>> bajo cualquier título y el referente a quienes no pueden ser
> >>>>>> Presidentes de la República por el período subsiguiente.
> >>>> The Honduran constitution assigns the armed forces to maintain the
> >>>> alternation of the Presidency:
> >>>>> ARTICLE 272. - The Armed Forces of Honduras, are a National
> >>>>> Institution of permanent, professional, non-political, obedient and
> >>>>> essentially nondeliberative character. They are constituted to defend
> >>>>> territorial integrity and the sovereignty of the Republic, to
> >>>>> maintain La Paz, the public order and the empire of the Constitution,
> >>>>> the principles of free suffrage and the alternabilidad in the
> >>>>> exercise of the Presidency of the Republic. They will cooperate with
> >>>>> the National Police in the Conservation of the public order.
> >>>>> Nacional de carácter permanente, esencialmente profesional,
> >>>>> apolítica, obediente y no deliberante.
> >>>>> Se constituyen para defender la integridad territorial y la soberanía
> >>>>> de la República, mantener la paz, el orden público y el imperio de la
> >>>>> Constitución, los principios de libre sufragio y la alternabilidad en
> >>>>> el ejercicio de la Presidencia de la República.
> >>>>> Cooperarán con la Policía Nacional en la Conservación del orden público.
> >>>> than a president serving more than one term.
> >>> The Honudran Constitution defines infractions against the alternability
> >>> of the presidency as treason against the country:
>
> > > The plebiscite was perfectly legal. The coup was not.
>
> > > --Jeff
>
> > In reference to the plebiscite, you have no idea what you are talking
> > about, Jeff.
>
>
> There wasn't a plbiscite because of the coup.
Don't you hate it when people, even after being told: "You are WRONG -
Go investigate and learn about the issue", they keep on walking
towards the quicksand?.
Even Zelaya is trying to distance himself from his proposed "4th
electoral urn". He says that he meant nothing by it, that it was
completely innocent.
How the fuck can something (the so-called "referendum") which is
declared illegal by:
- The Honduras Supreme Court
- The Zelaya Political Party
- The Honduras Congress by U-N-A-N-I-M-I-T-Y
be legal?
The Supreme Court and Congress say: "The military was ordered to go
and expel President Zelaya", so this is not your father's 60's and 70s
coup.
This is more like the coup of your beloved (bastard, murderer, thief,
liar) Hugo Chavez who DID perform an armed coup which was later
legitimized by democratic vote.
GO READ, LEARN. Understand that the most important part is not whether
you or I win this discussion. The important part is the TRUTH, as
taught in universities, not in the madrassas that you seem to be
partial to.
-Ramon
Ramon F Herrera
Funny that you ask me whether I mind answering. I doubt that many
Usenet participants have gone to the lengths I have. Right off the top
of my head, I recall posting:
- The Library of Congress reference number of a Venezuelan
genealogical volume where I am mentioned.
- A DNA NatGeo study about the origins of the Herrera family.
- My Venezuelan Cedula (ID) number and the page of the Electoral
office.
(Cedula V-4193047, http://www.cne.gob.ve). You may look me up
there.
- A Google maps image of the home I was born.
and all kinds of stuff like that.
Anywho.. Back to your question, Matt:
I happen to be sitting in Barquisimeto, Venezuela, about 100 Kms. from
the town I was born, Carora in Lara State.
-Ramon
Jeffrey Turner
Only pathetic, anti-democratic fascists were worried that the people of
Honduras would vote themselves a dictator. Venezuela isn't a
dictatorship, despite the fact that they don't want a right-wing
government. The right-wing was worried that the new Honduran
constitution might be more democratic. The right-wing hates democracy.
Ramon F Herrera
> krp wrote:
>
> > "Jeffrey Turner" <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote in message
> Venezuela isn't a dictatorship
Come down here to Venezuela, and -if you have any credibility left-
you will eat your words.
-Ramon
Barquisimeto, Venezuela
Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )
Does the Constitution allow for changes to the Constitution via
popular vote? Because if it doesn't, what you have is a
constitutional crisis since the president was trying to do that.
--
I heard Clinton buried a time capsule at his new presidential
library sized like an overseas shipping container filled with stuff
he didn't want anyone to find till long after his death, the real
deed to Whitewater, the envelope for the Tyson Foods chicken
payoffs, the real gun he used to whack Foster, the keys to the
Exocet missile he took Ron Brown out with, copies of another few
thousand illegally acquired FBI files on his enemies, tickets to
Tahiti from the White House Travel Office, a few more soiled
dresses, a couple of cases of well chewed Cuban cigars, and the
unabridged version of his autobiography. That last one was touch
and go just getting the bugger in.
krp
> krp wrote:
>> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>> The Honudran Constitution defines infractions against the
>>>>>> alternability of the presidency as treason against the country:
>>>>>
>>>>> The plebiscite was perfectly legal. The coup was not.
>>>
>>>> Really Jeff? Illegal? So you are saying that a president CANNOT
>>>> under ANY circumstances be IMPEACHED?
>>
>>> A coup isn't impeachment, fascist.
>>
>> So the VOTE of the Honduran legislature was a "COUP?" The decision of
>> the Supreme Court of Honduras a "coup?" The court found his actions
>> vilated the nation's constitution and the Honduran Legislature voted
>> impeachment. He refused to surrender his office. The military arrested
>> him and booted him from the country, they COULD HAVE just shot him.
>>
>>>> You conveniently ignore that the Honduran Supreme Court deemed what
>>>> Zelaya was doing was criminal,
>>
>>> No they didn't.
>>
>> Uh, YES, they did.
>>
>> http://zenpundit.com/?cat=583
>
> Sorry, my Spanish isn't that good.
NOR your English it appears.
The ISSUE here is that the Honduran Supreme Court mandated Zelaya's attempts
to become a DICTATOR were criminal. The Honduran legislature mandated that
he be removed from power. What you seem NOT to understand is that beling
ELECTED does NOT mean you get to be DICTATOR FOR LIFE.
They DID have elctions and Fidel WON with 100% of the vote. YOUR kind of
DEMOCRACY, right?"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Casto
>> and Hugo Chavez were democratically elected. I might mention that Kim Il
>> Jung of North Korea also was,
>
> Although Kim is not required to stand for popular election to his key
> offices, he is unanimously elected to the Supreme People's Assembly
> every five years, representing a military constituency.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_jong_il
Again - YOUR kind of democracy!
>> as was Josef Stalin,
>
> Lenin and Lev Kamenev helped to have Stalin appointed as General
> Secretary in 1922
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Stalin
Again YOUR kind of PERFECT democracy!
>> Pol Pot and
> The newly-established Representative Assembly held its first plenary
> meeting on April 11-13, electing a new government with Pol Pot as its
> leader.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_pot
> Well, "democratically elected" by his cadre of leaders of the Khmer
> Rouge. As is typical for you fascists, you think that's enough of an
> election.
PERFECT DEMOCRACY in YOUR world.
>> Adolph Hitler, with some minor thugs like Saddam Hussein and Iran's
>> Achmadinejad. Being elected does NOT mean you can get to do whatever you
>> want. Except perhaps in YOUR beliefs.
> You're a lying fascist, who is scared of democracy - just like the
> Honduran generals.
Democracy by DECREE? Yes, I AM afraid of THAT definition of democracy.
You see there are 3 branches of government (checks and balances) in a
democracy. A legislative branch and an INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY. In the case
of Honduras - you had a Marxist who hid what he was until after being
elected, and then TRIED to become DICTATOR FOR LIFE. The two other branches
of government, Legislative and Judiciary said NO. That's the RULE OF LAW
kid. Just because you were elected does NOT mean you can do anything you
want. You love totalitarianism, I don't,
krp
>>>> Zelaya wanted to follow in the footsteps of his mentors, Castro and
>>>> Chavez to seek the office of President for life. I suggest you study
>>>> Cuba and Venezuela for a CLUE as to the real significance of what
>>>> Zelaya was trying to do. Works when you walk in knowing you have the
>>>> mechanism to get 98% of the vote. This is "democracy" in your opinion?
>>>> Ask the people of Cuba and Venezuela about THEIR democracy. You might
>>>> get an answer when they stop laughing at the FOOL who asked the
>>>> question.
>>>
>>> You're delusional.
>>
>> Really? Be specific. About what? That Zeleya was CLOSE CLOSE buddies
>> with the Castros and Chavez? Are you claiming that isn't true? Are you
>> claiming that the "REFERENDUM" that Zeleya sought was to make him
>> "President for life?" Or do you wish to debate with me that Cuba and
>> Venezuela are great democracies? PICK one or all to to joust with me
>> about.
>
> Only pathetic, anti-democratic fascists were worried that the people of
> Honduras would vote themselves a dictator. Venezuela isn't a
> dictatorship, despite the fact that they don't want a right-wing
> government. The right-wing was worried that the new Honduran
> constitution might be more democratic. The right-wing hates democracy.
Oh cut the shit. Zelaya had ORDERED the military to conduct the
referendum WITH GUNS AND TANKS. Venezuela is NOT a dictatorship? What planet
are YOU on? When you make the opposition party "ILLEGAL" arrest its leaders
and SEIZE BY FORCE the media....... Do YOU call THAT a DEMOCRACY? In YOUR
world YES. In YOUR world an elected DICTATOR can rule by decree. He can
alter by FIAT the constitution. He can issue edicts that HE gets to name all
officers above the rank of lieutenant, that ONLY HE can name AND confirm
judges that all judges take an OATH TO HIM and ONLY to him! That is YOUR
idea of a democracy. It ain't mine and given the exodus of people FROM
Venezuela is is not THEIRS either! Interesting that HOOOOOGO held a
plebiscite on having HIM become DICTATOR FOR LIFE and when the people voted
NO.... He decreed it a "SHIT ELECTION" and nullified it and PROCLAIMED
HIMSELF as President for Life. Ink YOUR world THAT is democracy. He
nationalizes private enterprises by his DECREE. And YOU say it is a
"DEMOCRACY!" AMAZING!
Tell me something Jeffy - have you ever BEEN to these countries? Know
many people from them? Before you make a bigger ASS of yourself, consider
some FACTS. I have spent a great deal of time in Cuba. I married my wife in
Cuba. I have a Cuban son in law. I have family over much of the Island. I
have been behind the former Iron Curtain. YOU lecture here like a high
school sophomore who has never been out of his own bathroom. You are TOTALLY
ignorant of the FACTS but you tap anyway and call people who disagree with
your "SILLY SHIT" names like fascists.
There is a process in nations to alter their Constitutions. It is NOT
done by DECREE! The problem here is you are one of those weak minded people
so POORLY educated that they fall for the Marxist line of bullshit. You can
either LEARN or be a robot in a police state.
Matt
> On Jul 3, 4:14 pm, Matt <m...@themattfella.xxxyyz.com> wrote:
>> Ramon F Herrera wrote:
>>> -Ramon (from Barquisimeto, Venezuela)
>> Curious ... were you born in Venezuela, if you don't mind answering?
>
>
> Funny that you ask me whether I mind answering. I doubt that many
> Usenet participants have gone to the lengths I have. Right off the top
> of my head, I recall posting:
>
> - The Library of Congress reference number of a Venezuelan
> genealogical volume where I am mentioned.
>
> - A DNA NatGeo study about the origins of the Herrera family.
>
> - My Venezuelan Cedula (ID) number and the page of the Electoral
> office.
> (Cedula V-4193047, http://www.cne.gob.ve). You may look me up
> there.
>
> - A Google maps image of the home I was born.
>
> and all kinds of stuff like that.
Ha ha, okay, then I guess you don't mind :-) ... I only remember you
from COLA.
> Anywho.. Back to your question, Matt:
>
> I happen to be sitting in Barquisimeto, Venezuela, about 100 Kms. from
> the town I was born, Carora in Lara State.
>
> -Ramon
Your English is great, but I think your use of 'anywho' is nonstandard.
I think it means 'anyone', whereas its homophone 'anyhoo' has the
meaning you intended.
Jeffrey Turner
Just your lying AGAIN.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Casto
>
>>> and Hugo Chavez were democratically elected. I might mention that Kim
>>> Il Jung of North Korea also was,
>>
>> Although Kim is not required to stand for popular election to his key
>> offices, he is unanimously elected to the Supreme People's Assembly
>> every five years, representing a military constituency.
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_jong_il
>
> Again - YOUR kind of democracy!
Again more evidence you're a lying sack of shit.
>>> as was Josef Stalin,
>>
>> Lenin and Lev Kamenev helped to have Stalin appointed as General
>> Secretary in 1922
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Stalin
>
>
> Again YOUR kind of PERFECT democracy!
More like the kind of democracy W and the Busheviks wanted for Iraq
before the insurgency and the chief cleric demanded elections.
And more proof your a lying sack of shit.
>>> Pol Pot and
>
>> The newly-established Representative Assembly held its first plenary
>> meeting on April 11-13, electing a new government with Pol Pot as its
>> leader.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_pot
>
>> Well, "democratically elected" by his cadre of leaders of the Khmer
>> Rouge. As is typical for you fascists, you think that's enough of an
>> election.
>
> PERFECT DEMOCRACY in YOUR world.
More like having five Republican justices of the Supreme Court elect
Bush president.
And still more proof you're a lying sack of shit.
>>> Adolph Hitler, with some minor thugs like Saddam Hussein and Iran's
>>> Achmadinejad. Being elected does NOT mean you can get to do whatever
>>> you want. Except perhaps in YOUR beliefs.
>
>> You're a lying fascist, who is scared of democracy - just like the
>> Honduran generals.
>
> Democracy by DECREE?
No by popular election by all Hondurans.
> Yes, I AM afraid of THAT definition of
> democracy. You see there are 3 branches of government (checks and
> balances) in a democracy.
But the ultimate authority rests with the "demos," the people. That is
the root of demo-cracy.
A legislative branch and an INDEPENDENT
> JUDICIARY. In the case of Honduras - you had a Marxist who hid what he
> was until after being elected, and then TRIED to become DICTATOR FOR
> LIFE. The two other branches of government, Legislative and Judiciary
> said NO. That's the RULE OF LAW kid. Just because you were elected does
> NOT mean you can do anything you want. You love totalitarianism, I don't,
Your hyperventilating claptrap doesn't impress me. You are scared of a
plebiscite, and of democracy.
Jeffrey Turner
The Constitution allows for a National Assembly to change it. That is
what the question was going to be, whether to have an assembly with the
power to change the constitution.
krp
> krp wrote:
>>> On May 1, 1961, Castro declared Cuba as socialist state and officially
>>> abolished elections.[3]
>> They DID have elctions and Fidel WON with 100% of the vote. YOUR kind
>> of DEMOCRACY, right?"
>
> Just your lying AGAIN.
They STILL have elections in Cuba. Now Raul wins with 100% of the vote.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Casto
>>>> and Hugo Chavez were democratically elected. I might mention that Kim
>>>> Il Jung of North Korea also was,
>>>
>>> Although Kim is not required to stand for popular election to his key
>>> offices, he is unanimously elected to the Supreme People's Assembly
>>> every five years, representing a military constituency.
>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_jong_il
>>
>> Again - YOUR kind of democracy!
> Again more evidence you're a lying sack of shit.
Come on Jeff, isn't Kim just YOUR kind of DEMOCRAT?
>>>> as was Josef Stalin,
>>>
>>> Lenin and Lev Kamenev helped to have Stalin appointed as General
>>> Secretary in 1922
>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Stalin
>>
>>
>> Again YOUR kind of PERFECT democracy!
> More like the kind of democracy W and the Busheviks wanted for Iraq
> before the insurgency and the chief cleric demanded elections.
What a fantasy life you have.
>>>> Pol Pot and
>>
>>> The newly-established Representative Assembly held its first plenary
>>> meeting on April 11-13, electing a new government with Pol Pot as its
>>> leader.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_pot
>>
>>> Well, "democratically elected" by his cadre of leaders of the Khmer
>>> Rouge. As is typical for you fascists, you think that's enough of an
>>> election.
>>
>> PERFECT DEMOCRACY in YOUR world.
>
> More like having five Republican justices of the Supreme Court elect
> Bush president.
>
> And still more proof you're a lying sack of shit.
>
>>>> Adolph Hitler, with some minor thugs like Saddam Hussein and Iran's
>>>> Achmadinejad. Being elected does NOT mean you can get to do whatever
>>>> you want. Except perhaps in YOUR beliefs.
>>
>>> You're a lying fascist, who is scared of democracy - just like the
>>> Honduran generals.
>>
>> Democracy by DECREE?
> No by popular election by all Hondurans.
Did the Honduran people vote for a DICTATOR FOR LIFE? Do you believe
that once elected a President gets to rule by DECREE asnd do whatever he
wants?
>> Yes, I AM afraid of THAT definition of democracy. You see there are 3
>> branches of government (checks and balances) in a democracy.
> But the ultimate authority rests with the "demos," the people. That is
> the root of demo-cracy.
Do the PEOPLE elect the legislature? So in YOUR definition, once elected
the President has the power , in YOUR view of DEMOCRACY, to RULE BY DECREE?
He can do anything he wishes because "THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN" and they get
NO further voice in their country? That is YOUR idea of democracy? The
Supreme Court doesn't count. ONLY the elected DICTATOR? It seems from this
end - reading your arguments - that you see the President as a SUPREME
LEADER who is the ONLY one with authority and NOBODY dares challenge his
edicts. Especiall NOT the Congress or courts. HE IS EL SUPREMO! Right?
> A legislative branch and an INDEPENDENT
>> JUDICIARY. In the case of Honduras - you had a Marxist who hid what he
>> was until after being elected, and then TRIED to become DICTATOR FOR
>> LIFE. The two other branches of government, Legislative and Judiciary
>> said NO. That's the RULE OF LAW kid. Just because you were elected does
>> NOT mean you can do anything you want. You love totalitarianism, I don't,
> Your hyperventilating claptrap doesn't impress me. You are scared of a
> plebiscite, and of democracy.
No not a REAL vote. But I have a HUGE HUGE HUGE problem when a would-be
DICTATOR wants the ARMY to conduct the election under GUNPOINT! I have a
problem when EL SUPREMO disregards the Constitution and RULES BY DECREE and
does whatever the hell he wants in complete DISRESPECT to the people, to his
Congress and to the Supreme Court, and when the commander of the Army
REFUSES to have his troops used AGAINST the people, EL SUPREMO, fires him
and appoints somebody who WILL obey his orders.
It is extremely apparent that you and I share vastly different ideas of
a democracy. In MY view the RULE OF LAW is what makes it a democracy. Your
position MIGHT have some merit to it, EXCEPT the FACTS that the Honduran
Congress and Honduran Supreme Court found Zelaya's actions unlawful. He
wished to use FORCE to get his way. Let's see what happens. Let's see in
Venezuela makes good on its promise to intervene with its military.
Hoooooooogo, your hero, has been building it up for 8 years while the
Venezuelan people live in crushing poverty despite the HUGE revenues from
the state owned oil company that goes to military instead of feeding the
people.
krp
NO! That is a LIE! The issue was to extend Zelaya's term FOR LIFE. Let's
cut the happy horseshit here. It was NOT about having the Honduran
legislature do anything. That body was OPPOSED to Zeleya becoming DICTATOR
FOR LIFE and there was NO CHANCE they would authorize such a change, nor the
Honduran Supreme Court. The court had declared Zeleya's move
UNCONSTITUTIONAL, *HE* decided to go ahead and use the ARMY to conduct the
vote AT GUNPOINT! That is YOUR idea of democracy - it is NOT mine!
Matt
Really? Who told you that? Did they tell you exactly where in the
constitution that is stated?
krp
"Matt" <ma...@themattfella.xxxyyz.com> wrote in message
news:OlT3m.6960$R73....@newsfe12.iad...
In his PERFECT DEMOCRACY Constitution, the one that allows an elected
President to APPOINT HIMSELF as DICTATOR FOR LIFE! THAT ONE!
It's all so - - - well DEMOCRATIC isn't it? As long as it is a MARXIST
appointing himself dictator, that is. If it were a right wing dude THEN it
would be bad!
Jeffrey Turner
Sounds more like Bush's signing statements.
> He can do anything he wishes because "THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN"
> and they get NO further voice in their country? That is YOUR idea of
> democracy? The Supreme Court doesn't count. ONLY the elected DICTATOR?
> It seems from this end - reading your arguments - that you see the
> President as a SUPREME LEADER who is the ONLY one with authority and
> NOBODY dares challenge his edicts. Especiall NOT the Congress or courts.
> HE IS EL SUPREMO! Right?
The only arguments you seem to be capable of are against your own
strawmen.
>> A legislative branch and an INDEPENDENT
>>> JUDICIARY. In the case of Honduras - you had a Marxist who hid what
>>> he was until after being elected, and then TRIED to become DICTATOR
>>> FOR LIFE. The two other branches of government, Legislative and
>>> Judiciary said NO. That's the RULE OF LAW kid. Just because you were
>>> elected does NOT mean you can do anything you want. You love
>>> totalitarianism, I don't,
>
>> Your hyperventilating claptrap doesn't impress me. You are scared of a
>> plebiscite, and of democracy.
>
> No not a REAL vote. But I have a HUGE HUGE HUGE problem when a
> would-be DICTATOR wants the ARMY to conduct the election under
> GUNPOINT!
You have problems with your imagination.
The current crisis was sparked on Wednesday when the armed forces
apparently told the president that they wouldn't distribute the ballots
for Sunday's vote, a role the army traditionally plays
http://www.irnnews.com/news.asp?action=detail&article=26342
> I have a problem when EL SUPREMO disregards the Constitution
> and RULES BY DECREE and does whatever the hell he wants in complete
> DISRESPECT to the people, to his Congress and to the Supreme Court, and
> when the commander of the Army REFUSES to have his troops used AGAINST
> the people, EL SUPREMO, fires him and appoints somebody who WILL obey
> his orders.
You've got a hyperactive imagination. Seek psychiatric help. It's not
surprising, though. Wingnuts imagined all sorts of WMDs seven years
ago.
> It is extremely apparent that you and I share vastly different ideas
> of a democracy. In MY view the RULE OF LAW is what makes it a democracy.
Yeah, right.
> Your position MIGHT have some merit to it, EXCEPT the FACTS that the
> Honduran Congress and Honduran Supreme Court found Zelaya's actions
> unlawful.
And the OAS and other international bodies have found the coup to be
illegal.
> He wished to use FORCE to get his way. Let's see what happens.
> Let's see in Venezuela makes good on its promise to intervene with its
> military. Hoooooooogo, your hero, has been building it up for 8 years
> while the Venezuelan people live in crushing poverty despite the HUGE
> revenues from the state owned oil company that goes to military instead
> of feeding the people.
You must be thinking of the capitalist paradise of Equitorial Guinea.
Jeffrey Turner
Take your meds. Even getting re-elected is not "president for life."
Jeffrey Turner
How can I argue with someone who makes shit up as he goes?
Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )
Do you have a cite for this claim? When the legislature, the court
and the military all think you are violating the constitution,
there is a crisis if you continue to act in the way you were
acting. What I'd heard is that all those groups concluded that his
efforts were unconsttional. Where do you get the idea otherwise?
krp
>>>>> On May 1, 1961, Castro declared Cuba as socialist state and officially
>>>>> abolished elections.[3]
>>>> They DID have elctions and Fidel WON with 100% of the vote. YOUR
>>>> kind of DEMOCRACY, right?"
>>>
>>> Just your lying AGAIN.
>> They STILL have elections in Cuba. Now Raul wins with 100% of the
>> vote.
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Casto
Come ON idjit - argue with me about Cuba.
You were mouthing off about HONDURAS, Lefty.
>> He can do anything he wishes because "THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN" and they
>> get NO further voice in their country? That is YOUR idea of democracy?
>> The Supreme Court doesn't count. ONLY the elected DICTATOR? It seems from
>> this end - reading your arguments - that you see the President as a
>> SUPREME LEADER who is the ONLY one with authority and NOBODY dares
>> challenge his edicts. Especiall NOT the Congress or courts. HE IS EL
>> SUPREMO! Right?
>
> The only arguments you seem to be capable of are against your own
> strawmen.
>
>>> A legislative branch and an INDEPENDENT
>>>> JUDICIARY. In the case of Honduras - you had a Marxist who hid what he
>>>> was until after being elected, and then TRIED to become DICTATOR FOR
>>>> LIFE. The two other branches of government, Legislative and Judiciary
>>>> said NO. That's the RULE OF LAW kid. Just because you were elected
>>>> does NOT mean you can do anything you want. You love totalitarianism, I
>>>> don't,
>>
>>> Your hyperventilating claptrap doesn't impress me. You are scared of a
>>> plebiscite, and of democracy.
>>
>> No not a REAL vote. But I have a HUGE HUGE HUGE problem when a
>> would-be DICTATOR wants the ARMY to conduct the election under GUNPOINT!
> You have problems with your imagination.
Really?
> The current crisis was sparked on Wednesday when the armed forces
> apparently told the president that they wouldn't distribute the ballots
> for Sunday's vote, a role the army traditionally plays
You OMIT (and we all really WONDER why) (NOT) that the Honduran
Supreme Court had ruled Zelaya's BALLOT tgo be unconstitutional. Don't
troops have the right to disobey an UNLAWFUL ORDER from a wannabe despot?
> http://www.irnnews.com/news.asp?action=detail&article=26342
>> I have a problem when EL SUPREMO disregards the Constitution and RULES
>> BY DECREE and does whatever the hell he wants in complete DISRESPECT to
>> the people, to his Congress and to the Supreme Court, and when the
>> commander of the Army REFUSES to have his troops used AGAINST the people,
>> EL SUPREMO, fires him and appoints somebody who WILL obey his orders.
> You've got a hyperactive imagination. Seek psychiatric help. It's not
> surprising, though. Wingnuts imagined all sorts of WMDs seven years
> ago.
Is that your best shot left-wingnut? Does the RULE OF LAW count with you
or just LEFT WING DICTATORS?
>> It is extremely apparent that you and I share vastly different ideas
>> of a democracy. In MY view the RULE OF LAW is what makes it a democracy.
> Yeah, right.
That includes the legislature and judiciary.
>> Your position MIGHT have some merit to it, EXCEPT the FACTS that the
>> Honduran Congress and Honduran Supreme Court found Zelaya's actions
>> unlawful.
> And the OAS and other international bodies have found the coup to be
> illegal.
Conside the leftisis who led the pack.
>> He wished to use FORCE to get his way. Let's see what happens. Let's see
>> in Venezuela makes good on its promise to intervene with its military.
>> Hoooooooogo, your hero, has been building it up for 8 years while the
>> Venezuelan people live in crushing poverty despite the HUGE revenues from
>> the state owned oil company that goes to military instead of feeding the
>> people.
> You must be thinking of the capitalist paradise of Equitorial Guinea.
Nope. I confine my comments to YOUR democratic paradises, Cuba,
Venezuela, Bolivia, and Nicaragua. All of which live under MARXIST
DICTATORS. The kind YOU love that rule at gunpoint.
Have you ever been out of your bathroom? Do you have a CLUE as to what life
is like for the people in those places?
krp
>>> The Constitution allows for a National Assembly to change it. That is
>>> what the question was going to be, whether to have an assembly with the
>>> power to change the constitution.
>>
>> NO! That is a LIE! The issue was to extend Zelaya's term FOR LIFE.
> Take your meds. Even getting re-elected is not "president for life."
We'll forget that the Constitution forbids re-election at all. Zelaya is
BEST BUDDIES with the brothers Castro and Hooooooooooooooogo Chaffezzzzz EL
SUPREMO. We'll forget that the Honduran Constitution forbids nationalizing
private property and Zelaya DID just that BY DECREE. The Honduran
Constitution places LIMITS on presidential power and forbids RULE BY
DECREE.
krp
>>>>>> Zelaya wanted to follow in the footsteps of his mentors, Castro
>>>>>> and Chavez to seek the office of President for life. I suggest you
>>>>>> study Cuba and Venezuela for a CLUE as to the real significance of
>>>>>> what Zelaya was trying to do. Works when you walk in knowing you
>>>>>> have the mechanism to get 98% of the vote. This is "democracy" in
>>>>>> your opinion? Ask the people of Cuba and Venezuela about THEIR
>>>>>> democracy. You might get an answer when they stop laughing at the
>>>>>> FOOL who asked the question.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're delusional.
>>>>
>>>> Really? Be specific. About what? That Zeleya was CLOSE CLOSE buddies
>>>> with the Castros and Chavez? Are you claiming that isn't true? Are you
>>>> claiming that the "REFERENDUM" that Zeleya sought was to make him
>>>> "President for life?" Or do you wish to debate with me that Cuba and
>>>> Venezuela are great democracies? PICK one or all to to joust with me
>>>> about.
>>>
>>> Only pathetic, anti-democratic fascists were worried that the people of
>>> Honduras would vote themselves a dictator. Venezuela isn't a
>>> dictatorship, despite the fact that they don't want a right-wing
>>> government. The right-wing was worried that the new Honduran
>>> constitution might be more democratic. The right-wing hates democracy.
>>
>> Oh cut the shit. Zelaya had ORDERED the military to conduct the
>> referendum WITH GUNS AND TANKS.
> How can I argue with someone who makes shit up as he goes?
REALLY? I make it up? You really DO lead a sheltered life, don't you?
CARACAS, Venezuela, Oct. 15 (UPI) -- In 2006 and 2007 Venezuela's air force
purchased 36 Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30 "Flanker-C" fighters, of which 24
already are in service and the remaining 12 will be delivered before the end
of 2009. However, President Hugo Chavez has also placed an order for 24
state-of-the-art Russian Sukhoi Su-35 "Flanker-E" fighters with delivery
starting by 2010.
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Venezuela_buys_more_weapons,_now_from_Spain
Venezuelan President Hugo Ch�vez said that "the weapons are not instruments
of war but instruments of peace". According to Ch�vez, the ships will be
used to step up Venezuela's coastal patrols against the drug trade.
I believe Hoooooooooooooooooooooogo, don't you? GUNS FOR PEACE! Where have
I heard that shit before???
http://www.1913intel.com/2008/04/11/venezuela-buys-russian-arms/
Minister of Defense General-in-Chief Gustavo Rangel was even blunter about
the deleterious effects of Washington�s policies. Speaking at a press
conference on April 8 in the Uruguayan capital of Montevideo, Rangel said
that the U.S. embargo introduced in May 2006 on deliveries to Venezuela of
armaments, military equipment and spare parts had had a ruinous effect on
the country�s military hardware, especially the country�s aging fleet of 21
Lockheed F-16 Flying Falcons, which are no longer produced for the US Air
Force and of which only 10 remain operational (www.aviacion.mil.ve).
http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200509260542
The LOFAN legally enshrines three core missions for the armed forces of
Venezuela (FAN). First, protect the president, his family and his closest
associates at all times. Second, maintain internal order against internal
threats to the president. Third, defend the president against external
threats. Although Chavez routinely rants about the need to strengthen the
country�s FAN to resist a military invasion by the United States , the new
LOFAN explicitly defines the FAN�s primary mission as defending the
stability of the Chavez regime against internal threats and disruptions. It
is a law that essentially empowers the Venezuelan military to legally kill
Venezuelan civilians that Chavez considers a threat.
The Chavez government�s national security and defense doctrine is identical
to Castro�s model. The U.S. is the Bolivarian revolution�s greatest external
threat. The final battle of the Bolivarian revolution against the invading
Yankee foe would occur in Caracas . The �asymmetrical warfare� verbiage
coming from Chavez and his generals is a complete copy of the Cuban model�s
�all people�s war� against the U.S. military invasion. At the same time,
however, the LOFAN and the FAN�s current deployments are also meant to
ensure that Chavez cannot be overthrown by an internal military rebellion or
popular revolt.
Since the end of 2004 the Chavez government has signed a series of contracts
or announced negotiations to acquire new army, air force and navy weapons
systems. Separately, the Chavez government has invested substantial sums in
buying paramilitary equipment (handguns, automatic weapons, body armor) to
strengthen its political and civilian security forces.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,364202,00.html
http://www.geocities.com/kp_diver/index113Frigates-Venezuela.html
krp
"Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
news:4A50D13B...@yahoo.co.uk...
Let's see, as I understand it, the Honduran Supreme Court said that what
Zelaya was doing violated the Constitution, the Honduran Legislature voted
him out and the military refused to OBEY HIM and then on orders from the
high court arrested him and threw him out of the country, But we should side
with Zelaya????? And INVADE Honduras and IMPOSE his rule for LIFE????
Matt
Seems to me that it is against common sense that the constitution would
provide for a special assembly that can change the constitution. The
constitution already provides that the National Congress has the power
to change the constitution. The two bodies might work against each
other---each claiming legitimacy---and the country including the armed
forces could be split.
In other words, the hypothetical National Constituent Assembly is a
recipe for civil war when the National Congress already has a role in
changing the constitution.
Jeffrey Turner
> On Jul 3, 3:23 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>> Ramon F Herrera wrote:
>>> On Jul 2, 11:20 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>>> Matt wrote:
>>>>> Matt wrote:
>>>>>> Matt wrote:
>>>>>>> Matt wrote:
>>>>>>>> babelfish translation:
>>>>>>>>> ARTICLE 239. - The citizen who has carried out the ownership of the
>>>>>>>>> Executive authority could not be President or Vice-president of the
>>>>>>>>> Republic. The one that break this disposition or propose its
>>>>>>>>> reform, as well as those supports that it direct or indirectly,
>>>>>>>>> will stop immediately in the performance of their respective
>>>>>>>>> positions and will be disqualified by ten (10) years for the
>>>>>>>>> exercise of all public function.
>>>>>>>>> ARTICLE 239 .- The citizen who has ownership of the executive
>>>>>>>>> branch may not be President or Vice President of the Republic.
>>>>>>>>> Anyone who violates this provision or the proposed reform, and
>>>>>>>>> support those who directly or indirectly, immediately cease the
>>>>>>>>> discharge of their duties and shall be disqualified for ten (10)
>>>>>>>>> years to exercise any public function.
>>>>>>>> http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Constitutions/Honduras/hond05.html
>>>>>>>>> Poder Ejecutivo no podr� ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la
>>>>>>>>> Rep�blica.
>>>>>>>>> El que quebrante esta disposici�n o proponga su reforma, as� como
>>>>>>>>> aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesar�n de
>>>>>>>>> inmediato en el desempe�o de sus respectivos cargos y quedar�n
>>>>>>>>> p�blica.
>>>>>>> The Honduran constitution requires the revocation of the citizenship
>>>>>>> of anyone who promotes the abolition of the presidential term limit:
>>>>>>>> ARTICLE 42. - The quality of citizen is lost: ... 5. To urge, to
>>>>>>>> promote or to support the continuismo or the re-election of the
>>>>>>>> President of the Republic;
>>>>>>>> ARTICULO 42.- La calidad de ciudadano se pierde: ... 5. Por incitar,
>>>>>>> The Honduran constitution may not be changed to abolish the
>>>>>>> presidential term limit:
>>>>>>>> ARTICLE 374. - They will not be able to reform, in any case, the
>>>>>>>> previous article, the present article, the constitutional articles
>>>>>>>> that talk about the form of government, to the national territory,
>>>>>>>> the presidential period, the prohibition to be again President of
>>>>>>>> the Republic, the citizen has carried out who it under any title and
>>>>>>>> the referring one to those who cannot be Presidents of the Republic
>>>>>>>> by the subsequent period.
>>>>>>>> se refieren a la forma de gobierno, al territorio nacional, al
>>>>>>>> Presidente de la Rep�blica, el ciudadano que lo haya desempe�ado
>>>>>>>> bajo cualquier t�tulo y el referente a quienes no pueden ser
>>>>>> The Honduran constitution assigns the armed forces to maintain the
>>>>>> alternation of the Presidency:
>>>>>>> ARTICLE 272. - The Armed Forces of Honduras, are a National
>>>>>>> Institution of permanent, professional, non-political, obedient and
>>>>>>> essentially nondeliberative character. They are constituted to defend
>>>>>>> territorial integrity and the sovereignty of the Republic, to
>>>>>>> maintain La Paz, the public order and the empire of the Constitution,
>>>>>>> the principles of free suffrage and the alternabilidad in the
>>>>>>> exercise of the Presidency of the Republic. They will cooperate with
>>>>>>> the National Police in the Conservation of the public order.
>>>>>>> Nacional de car�cter permanente, esencialmente profesional,
>>>>>>> apol�tica, obediente y no deliberante.
>>>>>>> Se constituyen para defender la integridad territorial y la soberan�a
>>>>>>> de la Rep�blica, mantener la paz, el orden p�blico y el imperio de la
>>>>>>> Constituci�n, los principios de libre sufragio y la alternabilidad en
>>>>>>> el ejercicio de la Presidencia de la Rep�blica.
>>>>>>> Cooperar�n con la Polic�a Nacional en la Conservaci�n del orden p�blico.
>>>>>> than a president serving more than one term.
>>>>> The Honudran Constitution defines infractions against the alternability
>>>>> of the presidency as treason against the country:
>>> > The plebiscite was perfectly legal. The coup was not.
>>> > --Jeff
>>> In reference to the plebiscite, you have no idea what you are talking
>>> about, Jeff.
>
> > There wasn't a plbiscite because of the coup.
>
> Don't you hate it when people, even after being told: "You are WRONG -
> Go investigate and learn about the issue", they keep on walking
> towards the quicksand?.
>
> Even Zelaya is trying to distance himself from his proposed "4th
> electoral urn". He says that he meant nothing by it, that it was
> completely innocent.
>
> How the fuck can something (the so-called "referendum") which is
> declared illegal by:
>
> - The Honduras Supreme Court
> - The Zelaya Political Party
> - The Honduras Congress by U-N-A-N-I-M-I-T-Y
>
> be legal?
>
> The Supreme Court and Congress say: "The military was ordered to go
> and expel President Zelaya", so this is not your father's 60's and 70s
> coup.
Sure it is. The military has now fired on protesters.
> This is more like the coup of your beloved (bastard, murderer, thief,
> liar) Hugo Chavez who DID perform an armed coup which was later
> legitimized by democratic vote.
More like the coup of you democracy hating right wingers against Chavez.
> GO READ, LEARN. Understand that the most important part is not whether
> you or I win this discussion. The important part is the TRUTH, as
> taught in universities, not in the madrassas that you seem to be
> partial to.
You right-wingers are so pathetic.
Jeffrey Turner
>
> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
> news:qfadnaQPde-uVc3X...@posted.localnet...
>
>>>>>> On May 1, 1961, Castro declared Cuba as socialist state and
>>>>>> officially
>>>>>> abolished elections.[3]
>
>>>>> They DID have elctions and Fidel WON with 100% of the vote. YOUR
>>>>> kind of DEMOCRACY, right?"
>>>>
>>>> Just your lying AGAIN.
>
>>> They STILL have elections in Cuba. Now Raul wins with 100% of the
>>> vote.
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Casto
>
> Come ON idjit - argue with me about Cuba.
Apparently Raul only got 99.37% in the 2008 election.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_legislative_election,_2008
But that's not a democratic election, as there's only one candidate per
seat. In Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil, Nicaragua and probably Honduras if
it is allowed, your right-wingers are losing free and fair elections -
the right wing hates free and fair elections.
>>>>>>> and Hugo Chavez were democratically elected. I might mention that
>>>>>>> Kim Il Jung of North Korea also was,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Although Kim is not required to stand for popular election to his key
>>>>>> offices, he is unanimously elected to the Supreme People's Assembly
>>>>>> every five years, representing a military constituency.
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_jong_il
>>>>>
>>>>> Again - YOUR kind of democracy!
>>>
>>>> Again more evidence you're a lying sack of shit.
>
>>> Come on Jeff, isn't Kim just YOUR kind of DEMOCRAT?
No, he's the perfect right wing candidate. He spends a huge budget on
the military.
Where the court stepped in to stop democracy - kind of like Floriduh.
Followed by a military coup. Just what wingnuts love.
>>> He can do anything he wishes because "THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN" and
>>> they get NO further voice in their country? That is YOUR idea of
>>> democracy? The Supreme Court doesn't count. ONLY the elected
>>> DICTATOR? It seems from this end - reading your arguments - that you
>>> see the President as a SUPREME LEADER who is the ONLY one with
>>> authority and NOBODY dares challenge his edicts. Especiall NOT the
>>> Congress or courts. HE IS EL SUPREMO! Right?
>>
>> The only arguments you seem to be capable of are against your own
>> strawmen.
>>
>>>> A legislative branch and an INDEPENDENT
>>>>> JUDICIARY. In the case of Honduras - you had a Marxist who hid
>>>>> what he was until after being elected, and then TRIED to become
>>>>> DICTATOR FOR LIFE. The two other branches of government,
>>>>> Legislative and Judiciary said NO. That's the RULE OF LAW kid.
>>>>> Just because you were elected does NOT mean you can do anything you
>>>>> want. You love totalitarianism, I don't,
>>>
>>>> Your hyperventilating claptrap doesn't impress me. You are scared of a
>>>> plebiscite, and of democracy.
>>>
>>> No not a REAL vote. But I have a HUGE HUGE HUGE problem when a
>>> would-be DICTATOR wants the ARMY to conduct the election under GUNPOINT!
>
>> You have problems with your imagination.
>
> Really?
The army always distributes the ballot boxes in Honduras.
>> The current crisis was sparked on Wednesday when the armed forces
>> apparently told the president that they wouldn't distribute the ballots
>> for Sunday's vote, a role the army traditionally plays
>
> You OMIT (and we all really WONDER why) (NOT) that the Honduran
> Supreme Court had ruled Zelaya's BALLOT tgo be unconstitutional. Don't
> troops have the right to disobey an UNLAWFUL ORDER from a wannabe despot?
Now the troops are firing on peaceful demonstrations. We've got the
traditional right-wing despot going on here.
http://www.telesurtv.net/solotexto/senal_vivo.php
>> http://www.irnnews.com/news.asp?action=detail&article=26342
>
>>> I have a problem when EL SUPREMO disregards the Constitution and
>>> RULES BY DECREE and does whatever the hell he wants in complete
>>> DISRESPECT to the people, to his Congress and to the Supreme Court,
>>> and when the commander of the Army REFUSES to have his troops used
>>> AGAINST the people, EL SUPREMO, fires him and appoints somebody who
>>> WILL obey his orders.
>
>> You've got a hyperactive imagination. Seek psychiatric help. It's not
>> surprising, though. Wingnuts imagined all sorts of WMDs seven years
>> ago.
>
> Is that your best shot left-wingnut? Does the RULE OF LAW count with
> you or just LEFT WING DICTATORS?
The people have the right to change the law.
>>> It is extremely apparent that you and I share vastly different
>>> ideas of a democracy. In MY view the RULE OF LAW is what makes it a
>>> democracy.
>
>> Yeah, right.
>
> That includes the legislature and judiciary.
And includes coups?
>>> Your position MIGHT have some merit to it, EXCEPT the FACTS that the
>>> Honduran Congress and Honduran Supreme Court found Zelaya's actions
>>> unlawful.
>
>> And the OAS and other international bodies have found the coup to be
>> illegal.
>
> Conside the leftisis who led the pack.
The right orchestrated an illegal coup.
>>> He wished to use FORCE to get his way. Let's see what happens. Let's
>>> see in Venezuela makes good on its promise to intervene with its
>>> military. Hoooooooogo, your hero, has been building it up for 8 years
>>> while the Venezuelan people live in crushing poverty despite the HUGE
>>> revenues from the state owned oil company that goes to military
>>> instead of feeding the people.
>
>> You must be thinking of the capitalist paradise of Equitorial Guinea.
>
> Nope. I confine my comments to YOUR democratic paradises, Cuba,
> Venezuela, Bolivia, and Nicaragua. All of which live under MARXIST
> DICTATORS. The kind YOU love that rule at gunpoint.
More lies from a proven lying sack of shit.
> Have you ever been out of your bathroom? Do you have a CLUE as to what
> life is like for the people in those places?
Says the fascist. Cuba was a wonderful place under Batista, eh?
krp
>>
>>>>>>> On May 1, 1961, Castro declared Cuba as socialist state and
>>>>>>> officially
>>>>>>> abolished elections.[3]
>>
>>>>>> They DID have elctions and Fidel WON with 100% of the vote. YOUR
>>>>>> kind of DEMOCRACY, right?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Just your lying AGAIN.
>>
>>>> They STILL have elections in Cuba. Now Raul wins with 100% of the
>>>> vote.
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Casto
>>
>> Come ON idjit - argue with me about Cuba.
> Apparently Raul only got 99.37% in the 2008 election.
Out of HOW MANY OPOSING CANDIDATES???
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_legislative_election,_2008
> But that's not a democratic election, as there's only one candidate per
> seat. In Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil, Nicaragua and probably Honduras if
> it is allowed, your right-wingers are losing free and fair elections -
> the right wing hates free and fair elections.
BUT he *WAS* elected. In YOUR nook that means he can do anything he
wants. In Venzuela the opposition party has been banned. The leaders jailed.
>>>>>>>> and Hugo Chavez were democratically elected. I might mention that
>>>>>>>> Kim Il Jung of North Korea also was,
>>>>>> Although Kim is not required to stand for popular election to his key
>>>>>>> offices, he is unanimously elected to the Supreme People's Assembly
>>>>>>> every five years, representing a military constituency.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_jong_il
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again - YOUR kind of democracy!
>>>>
>>>>> Again more evidence you're a lying sack of shit.
>>
>>>> Come on Jeff, isn't Kim just YOUR kind of DEMOCRAT?
> No, he's the perfect right wing candidate. He spends a huge budget on
> the military.
So does Chavez and Castro. Do did the USSR right up to the day it
collapsed.
>>>>>>>> as was Josef Stalin,
So we CANNOT trust the legislature or judiciary. ONLY - - EL SUPREMO
because he was elected.
And then STANDS GUARD over the voting?
>>> The current crisis was sparked on Wednesday when the armed forces
>>> apparently told the president that they wouldn't distribute the ballots
>>> for Sunday's vote, a role the army traditionally plays
>>
>> You OMIT (and we all really WONDER why) (NOT) that the Honduran
>> Supreme Court had ruled Zelaya's BALLOT tgo be unconstitutional. Don't
>> troops have the right to disobey an UNLAWFUL ORDER from a wannabe despot?
> Now the troops are firing on peaceful demonstrations. We've got the
> traditional right-wing despot going on here.
Like they do in your Iranian Democracy?
> http://www.telesurtv.net/solotexto/senal_vivo.php
>>> http://www.irnnews.com/news.asp?action=detail&article=26342
>>
>>>> I have a problem when EL SUPREMO disregards the Constitution and RULES
>>>> BY DECREE and does whatever the hell he wants in complete DISRESPECT to
>>>> the people, to his Congress and to the Supreme Court, and when the
>>>> commander of the Army REFUSES to have his troops used AGAINST the
>>>> people, EL SUPREMO, fires him and appoints somebody who WILL obey his
>>>> orders.
>>
>>> You've got a hyperactive imagination. Seek psychiatric help. It's not
>>> surprising, though. Wingnuts imagined all sorts of WMDs seven years
>>> ago.
>>
>> Is that your best shot left-wingnut? Does the RULE OF LAW count with
>> you or just LEFT WING DICTATORS?
> The people have the right to change the law.
BY THE RULE OF LAW, in a proper fashion.
>>>> It is extremely apparent that you and I share vastly different ideas
>>>> of a democracy. In MY view the RULE OF LAW is what makes it a
>>>> democracy.
>>
>>> Yeah, right.
>>
>> That includes the legislature and judiciary.
> And includes coups?
They had one in Italy didn't they with Mousolini?
>>>> Your position MIGHT have some merit to it, EXCEPT the FACTS that the
>>>> Honduran Congress and Honduran Supreme Court found Zelaya's actions
>>>> unlawful.
>>
>>> And the OAS and other international bodies have found the coup to be
>>> illegal.
>> Conside the leftisis who led the pack.
> The right orchestrated an illegal coup.
The "right" as YOU define it. Anybody who opposed Zelaya's attempt to
become president for life.
>>>> He wished to use FORCE to get his way. Let's see what happens. Let's
>>>> see in Venezuela makes good on its promise to intervene with its
>>>> military. Hoooooooogo, your hero, has been building it up for 8 years
>>>> while the Venezuelan people live in crushing poverty despite the HUGE
>>>> revenues from the state owned oil company that goes to military instead
>>>> of feeding the people.
>>
>>> You must be thinking of the capitalist paradise of Equitorial Guinea.
>> Nope. I confine my comments to YOUR democratic paradises, Cuba,
>> Venezuela, Bolivia, and Nicaragua. All of which live under MARXIST
>> DICTATORS. The kind YOU love that rule at gunpoint.
> More lies from a proven lying sack of shit.
So in YOUR WORLD Cuba IS a good democracy?
>> Have you ever been out of your bathroom? Do you have a CLUE as to what
>> life is like for the people in those places?
> Says the fascist. Cuba was a wonderful place under Batista, eh?
Of course not, HOWEVER, the people WERE better off under Batista in many
important ways. The Cuban people had the 3rd highest standard of living in
the Western Hemisphere. Only slightly behind Canada. They actually had MORE
political freedom under Batista than they do now. You are not even well
informed enough about Cuba to have even a WRONG OPINION about it.
Jeffrey Turner
Apparently there are no limits on the illegal government.
OAS Should Press de Facto Leaders to Restore Rights and End Abuse of
Demonstrators
NEW YORK - July 2 - The Organization of American States (OAS), should
press Honduras' de facto government to ensure full respect for human
rights guarantees, Human Rights Watch said in a letter released today to
OAS Secretary-General Jos� Miguel Insulza.
The letter expresses concern over reports of serious abuses against
demonstrators, and the Honduran Congress's approval of an emergency
decree suspending fundamental rights in the aftermath of a military coup
that deposed President Manuel Zelaya early on June 28, 2009.
"[A]ny attempt to suspend non-derogable rights should be categorically
condemned," Jos� Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights
Watch, said in the letter. "The authorities should be clearly reminded
that acts of torture, inhuman and degrading treatment, and enforced
disappearances are absolutely prohibited and subject to prosecution as
international crimes."
The letter cites credible reports of serious abuses committed in recent
days, including arbitrary detentions of close to 100 demonstrators and
censorship of news outlets. Human Rights Watch expressed concern that
the new decree could give rise to further abuse.
"In the absence of some clear threat to public order and security in
Honduras, the existence of peaceful, political demonstrations could not
reasonably be construed as ground for widespread suspension of
fundamental rights guarantees," Vivanco said in the letter.
http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/1960/68/
Typical right wing coup. You fascists are all alike.
Jeffrey Turner
Yeah, you've made up tons of "facts."
> http://www.defenseprocurementnews.com/2008/10/15/venezuela-buys-russian-aircraft-tanks-to-boost-power/
>
>
> CARACAS, Venezuela, Oct. 15 (UPI) -- In 2006 and 2007 Venezuela's air
> force purchased 36 Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30 "Flanker-C" fighters, of
> which 24 already are in service and the remaining 12 will be delivered
> before the end of 2009. However, President Hugo Chavez has also placed
> an order for 24 state-of-the-art Russian Sukhoi Su-35 "Flanker-E"
> fighters with delivery starting by 2010.
>
> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Venezuela_buys_more_weapons,_now_from_Spain
>
> Venezuelan President Hugo Ch�vez said that "the weapons are not
> instruments of war but instruments of peace". According to Ch�vez, the
> ships will be used to step up Venezuela's coastal patrols against the
> drug trade.
>
>
> I believe Hoooooooooooooooooooooogo, don't you? GUNS FOR PEACE! Where
> have I heard that shit before???
George W. Bush as he invaded two countries in the name of seeking peace?
What the hell does any of that verbiage have to do with your lie that
"Zelaya had ORDERED the military to conduct the referendum WITH GUNS AND
TANKS"?
I'm sorry if some countries have to defend themselves from the
well-armed fascists that you support.
Ramon F Herrera
> Ramon F Herrera wrote:
> > On Jul 3, 3:23 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
> >> Ramon F Herrera wrote:
> >>> On Jul 2, 11:20 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
> >>>> Matt wrote:
> >>>>> Matt wrote:
> >>>>>> Matt wrote:
> >>>>>>> Matt wrote:
> >>>>>>>> babelfish translation:
> >>>>>>>>> ARTICLE 239. - The citizen who has carried out the ownership of the
> >>>>>>>>> Executive authority could not be President or Vice-president of the
> >>>>>>>>> Republic. The one that break this disposition or propose its
> >>>>>>>>> reform, as well as those supports that it direct or indirectly,
> >>>>>>>>> will stop immediately in the performance of their respective
> >>>>>>>>> positions and will be disqualified by ten (10) years for the
> >>>>>>>>> exercise of all public function.
> >>>>>>>>> ARTICLE 239 .- The citizen who has ownership of the executive
> >>>>>>>>> branch may not be President or Vice President of the Republic.
> >>>>>>>>> Anyone who violates this provision or the proposed reform, and
> >>>>>>>>> support those who directly or indirectly, immediately cease the
> >>>>>>>>> discharge of their duties and shall be disqualified for ten (10)
> >>>>>>>>> years to exercise any public function.
> >>>>>>>>http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Constitutions/Honduras/hond05.html
> >>>>>>>>> Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la
> >>>>>>>>> República.
> >>>>>>>>> El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, así como
> >>>>>>>>> aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de
> >>>>>>>>> inmediato en el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos y quedarán
> >>>>>>>>> inhabilitados por diez (10) años para el ejercicio de toda función
> >>>>>>>>> pública.
> >>>>>>> The Honduran constitution requires the revocation of the citizenship
> >>>>>>> of anyone who promotes the abolition of the presidential term limit:
> >>>>>>>> ARTICLE 42. - The quality of citizen is lost: ... 5. To urge, to
> >>>>>>>> promote or to support the continuismo or the re-election of the
> >>>>>>>> President of the Republic;
> >>>>>>>> ARTICULO 42.- La calidad de ciudadano se pierde: ... 5. Por incitar,
> >>>>>>>> la República; y,
> >>>>>>> The Honduran constitution may not be changed to abolish the
> >>>>>>> presidential term limit:
> >>>>>>>> ARTICLE 374. - They will not be able to reform, in any case, the
> >>>>>>>> previous article, the present article, the constitutional articles
> >>>>>>>> that talk about the form of government, to the national territory,
> >>>>>>>> the presidential period, the prohibition to be again President of
> >>>>>>>> the Republic, the citizen has carried out who it under any title and
> >>>>>>>> the referring one to those who cannot be Presidents of the Republic
> >>>>>>>> by the subsequent period.
> >>>>>>>> anterior, el presente artículo, los artículos constitucionales que
> >>>>>>>> se refieren a la forma de gobierno, al territorio nacional, al
> >>>>>>>> Presidente de la República, el ciudadano que lo haya desempeñado
> >>>>>>>> bajo cualquier título y el referente a quienes no pueden ser
> >>>>>>>> Presidentes de la República por el período subsiguiente.
> >>>>>> The Honduran constitution assigns the armed forces to maintain the
> >>>>>> alternation of the Presidency:
> >>>>>>> ARTICLE 272. - The Armed Forces of Honduras, are a National
> >>>>>>> Institution of permanent, professional, non-political, obedient and
> >>>>>>> essentially nondeliberative character. They are constituted to defend
> >>>>>>> territorial integrity and the sovereignty of the Republic, to
> >>>>>>> maintain La Paz, the public order and the empire of the Constitution,
> >>>>>>> the principles of free suffrage and the alternabilidad in the
> >>>>>>> exercise of the Presidency of the Republic. They will cooperate with
> >>>>>>> the National Police in the Conservation of the public order.
> >>>>>>> Nacional de carácter permanente, esencialmente profesional,
> >>>>>>> apolítica, obediente y no deliberante.
> >>>>>>> Se constituyen para defender la integridad territorial y la soberanía
> >>>>>>> de la República, mantener la paz, el orden público y el imperio de la
> >>>>>>> Constitución, los principios de libre sufragio y la alternabilidad en
> >>>>>>> el ejercicio de la Presidencia de la República.
> >>>>>>> Cooperarán con la Policía Nacional en la Conservación del orden público.
> >>>>>> Obviously there is hardly a greater taboo in the Honduran constitution
> >>>>>> than a president serving more than one term.
> >>>>> The Honudran Constitution defines infractions against the alternability
> >>>>> of the presidency as treason against the country:
> >>> > The plebiscite was perfectly legal. The coup was not.
> >>> > --Jeff
> >>> In reference to the plebiscite, you have no idea what you are talking
> >>> about, Jeff.
I am a Boston liberal, but that doesn't mean that I condone the
illegitimate regime that is destroying my native country, Venezuela,
where I happen to be as we speak.
We Venezuelans have very little freedoms left. Chavez has stolen
elections. I know the people who worked on the fraud.
The only interest of Chavez and his imitators is to perpetuate
themselves in power, so they can reward its close supporters with all
kinds of government contracts.
You are clearly a resented individual, like most Chavez supporters,
whose only interest is to punish people that you perceive as being
responsible for your failures.
I bet you haven't set foot in Venezuela or Honduras. Your credibility
in those issues is zero.
-Ramon
Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )
You are replying to me with essentially what I claimed as fact
while pretending I said something entirely the opposite.
Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )
How is it a right wing coup if the supreme court, legislature and
military are all on one side against one man trying to rewrite the
constitutional to his whim? A legislature can usually remove the
executive, it's often called "impeachment" and "removal".
Matt
>
> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
> news:SNmdnST0J6nDzczX...@posted.localnet...
>>>>> No not a REAL vote. But I have a HUGE HUGE HUGE problem when a
>>>>> would-be DICTATOR wants the ARMY to conduct the election under
>>>>> GUNPOINT!
>>>
>>>> You have problems with your imagination.
>>>
>>> Really?
>
>> The army always distributes the ballot boxes in Honduras.
>
> And then STANDS GUARD over the voting?
Article 272 seems to authorize both, but the constitution itself doesn't
seem to show the details.
>
>>>> The current crisis was sparked on Wednesday when the armed forces
>>>> apparently told the president that they wouldn't distribute the ballots
>>>> for Sunday's vote, a role the army traditionally plays
>>>
>>> You OMIT (and we all really WONDER why) (NOT) that the Honduran
>>> Supreme Court had ruled Zelaya's BALLOT tgo be unconstitutional.
>>> Don't troops have the right to disobey an UNLAWFUL ORDER from a
>>> wannabe despot?
The constitution requires that they do so. It requires that all
citizens do so.
> ARTICLE 3. - Nobody must to obedience to an usurping government nor to those who assume functions or uses public by the force of the average arms or using or procedures that break or do not know what this Constitution and the laws establish. The acts verified by such authorities are null. the town must right to resort to the insurrection in defense of the constitutional order.
> ARTICULO 3.- Nadie debe obediencia a un gobierno usurpador ni a quienes asuman funciones o empleos p�blicos por la fuerza de las armas o usando medios o procedimientos que quebranten o desconozcan lo que esta Constituci�n y las leyes establecen. Los actos verificados por tales autoridades son nulos. el pueblo tiene derecho a recurrir a la insurrecci�n en defensa del orden constitucional.
Matt
The way I read it, krp was just me-too-ing you.
Ramon F Herrera
> >> Curious ... were you born in Venezuela, if you don't mind answering?
>
> > Funny that you ask me whether I mind answering. I doubt that many
> > Usenet participants have gone to the lengths I have. Right off the top
> > of my head, I recall posting:
>
> > - The Library of Congress reference number of a Venezuelan
> > genealogical volume where I am mentioned.
>
> > - A DNA NatGeo study about the origins of the Herrera family.
>
> > - My Venezuelan Cedula (ID) number and the page of the Electoral
> > office.
> > (Cedula V-4193047,http://www.cne.gob.ve). You may look me up
> > there.
>
> > - A Google maps image of the home I was born.
>
> > and all kinds of stuff like that.
>
> Ha ha, okay, then I guess you don't mind :-) ... I only remember you
> from COLA.
>
> > Anywho.. Back to your question, Matt:
>
> > I happen to be sitting in Barquisimeto, Venezuela, about 100 Kms. from
> > the town I was born, Carora in Lara State.
>
> > -Ramon
>
> Your English is great, but I think your use of 'anywho' is nonstandard.
>
> I think it means 'anyone', whereas its homophone 'anyhoo' has the
> meaning you intended.
Thanks for the tip. Matt. I always wondered where the heck that word
came from.
Gracias,
-Ramon
Jeffrey Turner
>>>>>>>>>>> Poder Ejecutivo no podr� ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la
>>>>>>>>>>> Rep�blica.
>>>>>>>>>>> El que quebrante esta disposici�n o proponga su reforma, as� como
>>>>>>>>>>> aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesar�n de
>>>>>>>>>>> inmediato en el desempe�o de sus respectivos cargos y quedar�n
>>>>>>>>>>> p�blica.
>>>>>>>>> The Honduran constitution requires the revocation of the citizenship
>>>>>>>>> of anyone who promotes the abolition of the presidential term limit:
>>>>>>>>>> ARTICLE 42. - The quality of citizen is lost: ... 5. To urge, to
>>>>>>>>>> promote or to support the continuismo or the re-election of the
>>>>>>>>>> President of the Republic;
>>>>>>>>>> ARTICULO 42.- La calidad de ciudadano se pierde: ... 5. Por incitar,
>>>>>>>>> The Honduran constitution may not be changed to abolish the
>>>>>>>>> presidential term limit:
>>>>>>>>>> ARTICLE 374. - They will not be able to reform, in any case, the
>>>>>>>>>> previous article, the present article, the constitutional articles
>>>>>>>>>> that talk about the form of government, to the national territory,
>>>>>>>>>> the presidential period, the prohibition to be again President of
>>>>>>>>>> the Republic, the citizen has carried out who it under any title and
>>>>>>>>>> the referring one to those who cannot be Presidents of the Republic
>>>>>>>>>> by the subsequent period.
>>>>>>>>>> se refieren a la forma de gobierno, al territorio nacional, al
>>>>>>>>>> Presidente de la Rep�blica, el ciudadano que lo haya desempe�ado
>>>>>>>>>> bajo cualquier t�tulo y el referente a quienes no pueden ser
>>>>>>>> The Honduran constitution assigns the armed forces to maintain the
>>>>>>>> alternation of the Presidency:
>>>>>>>>> ARTICLE 272. - The Armed Forces of Honduras, are a National
>>>>>>>>> Institution of permanent, professional, non-political, obedient and
>>>>>>>>> essentially nondeliberative character. They are constituted to defend
>>>>>>>>> territorial integrity and the sovereignty of the Republic, to
>>>>>>>>> maintain La Paz, the public order and the empire of the Constitution,
>>>>>>>>> the principles of free suffrage and the alternabilidad in the
>>>>>>>>> exercise of the Presidency of the Republic. They will cooperate with
>>>>>>>>> the National Police in the Conservation of the public order.
>>>>>>>>> Nacional de car�cter permanente, esencialmente profesional,
>>>>>>>>> apol�tica, obediente y no deliberante.
>>>>>>>>> Se constituyen para defender la integridad territorial y la soberan�a
>>>>>>>>> de la Rep�blica, mantener la paz, el orden p�blico y el imperio de la
>>>>>>>>> Constituci�n, los principios de libre sufragio y la alternabilidad en
>>>>>>>>> el ejercicio de la Presidencia de la Rep�blica.
>>>>>>>>> Cooperar�n con la Polic�a Nacional en la Conservaci�n del orden p�blico.
>>>>>>>> than a president serving more than one term.
>>>>>>> The Honudran Constitution defines infractions against the alternability
>>>>>>> of the presidency as treason against the country:
>>>>> > The plebiscite was perfectly legal. The coup was not.
>>>>> > --Jeff
>>>>> In reference to the plebiscite, you have no idea what you are talking
>>>>> about, Jeff.
Sure you do. Are you a Venezuelan or a Bostonian? But I'll bet you're
white. Should I trust you or the OAS and Carter Center? Hmmmm.
> The only interest of Chavez and his imitators is to perpetuate
> themselves in power, so they can reward its close supporters with all
> kinds of government contracts.
I'm sure Perez and Caldera were pure as the driven snow, eh? But at
least they gave all the money to the wealthy and middle class, eh?
> You are clearly a resented individual, like most Chavez supporters,
> whose only interest is to punish people that you perceive as being
> responsible for your failures.
You flunked Psych 101 too, eh?
> I bet you haven't set foot in Venezuela or Honduras. Your credibility
> in those issues is zero.
Why don't you go set foot in Honduras? Maybe you can get shot by the
military. For a "Boston liberal" you sure support a lot of coups that
turn on the people.
Jeffrey Turner
>
> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
> news:SNmdnST0J6nDzczX...@posted.localnet...
>
>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 1, 1961, Castro declared Cuba as socialist state and
>>>>>>>> officially
>>>>>>>> abolished elections.[3]
>>>
>>>>>>> They DID have elctions and Fidel WON with 100% of the vote.
>>>>>>> YOUR kind of DEMOCRACY, right?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just your lying AGAIN.
>>>
>>>>> They STILL have elections in Cuba. Now Raul wins with 100% of
>>>>> the vote.
>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Casto
>>>
>>> Come ON idjit - argue with me about Cuba.
>
>> Apparently Raul only got 99.37% in the 2008 election.
>
> Out of HOW MANY OPOSING CANDIDATES???
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_legislative_election,_2008
>
>> But that's not a democratic election, as there's only one candidate per
>> seat. In Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil, Nicaragua and probably Honduras if
>> it is allowed, your right-wingers are losing free and fair elections -
>> the right wing hates free and fair elections.
>
> BUT he *WAS* elected. In YOUR nook that means he can do anything he
> wants. In Venzuela the opposition party has been banned. The leaders
> jailed.
For carrying out a coup that failed. Well, most of the sane world won't
elect idiot right wingers if they have a choice - so you need your coups
and your fixed constitutions.
>>>>>>>>> and Hugo Chavez were democratically elected. I might mention
>>>>>>>>> that Kim Il Jung of North Korea also was,
>
>>>>>>> Although Kim is not required to stand for popular election to his
>>>>>>> key
>>>>>>>> offices, he is unanimously elected to the Supreme People's Assembly
>>>>>>>> every five years, representing a military constituency.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_jong_il
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again - YOUR kind of democracy!
>>>>>
>>>>>> Again more evidence you're a lying sack of shit.
>>>
>>>>> Come on Jeff, isn't Kim just YOUR kind of DEMOCRAT?
>
>> No, he's the perfect right wing candidate. He spends a huge budget on
>> the military.
>
> So does Chavez and Castro. Do did the USSR right up to the day it
> collapsed.
I know you were scared of the Soviets invading. Wingnuts are the champs
of paranoia. The US spends more than the rest of the world combined, so
I can see why you admire Kim.
>>>>>>> Yes, I AM afraid of THAT definition of democracy. You see there
>>>>>>> are 3 branches of government (checks and balances) in a democracy.
>>>>>
>>>>>> But the ultimate authority rests with the "demos," the people.
>>>>>> That is
>>>>>> the root of demo-cracy.
>>>
>>>>> Do the PEOPLE elect the legislature? So in YOUR definition, once
>>>>> elected the President has the power , in YOUR view of DEMOCRACY, to
>>>>> RULE BY DECREE?
>>>
>>>> Sounds more like Bush's signing statements.
>
>>> You were mouthing off about HONDURAS, Lefty.
>
>> Where the court stepped in to stop democracy - kind of like Floriduh.
>> Followed by a military coup. Just what wingnuts love.
>
> So we CANNOT trust the legislature or judiciary. ONLY - - EL
> SUPREMO because he was elected.
Only the military dictator, apparently. The people have the right to
set their own constitution regardless of the opinions of a handful
of right wing jurists.
The military should be independent - obviously the present generalissimo
doesn't see it that way.
>>>> The current crisis was sparked on Wednesday when the armed forces
>>>> apparently told the president that they wouldn't distribute the ballots
>>>> for Sunday's vote, a role the army traditionally plays
>>>
>>> You OMIT (and we all really WONDER why) (NOT) that the Honduran
>>> Supreme Court had ruled Zelaya's BALLOT tgo be unconstitutional.
>>> Don't troops have the right to disobey an UNLAWFUL ORDER from a
>>> wannabe despot?
>
>> Now the troops are firing on peaceful demonstrations. We've got the
>> traditional right-wing despot going on here.
>
> Like they do in your Iranian Democracy?
Like they do in all the right wing dictatorships you love.
>> http://www.telesurtv.net/solotexto/senal_vivo.php
>
>>>> http://www.irnnews.com/news.asp?action=detail&article=26342
>>>
>>>>> I have a problem when EL SUPREMO disregards the Constitution and
>>>>> RULES BY DECREE and does whatever the hell he wants in complete
>>>>> DISRESPECT to the people, to his Congress and to the Supreme Court,
>>>>> and when the commander of the Army REFUSES to have his troops used
>>>>> AGAINST the people, EL SUPREMO, fires him and appoints somebody who
>>>>> WILL obey his orders.
>>>
>>>> You've got a hyperactive imagination. Seek psychiatric help. It's not
>>>> surprising, though. Wingnuts imagined all sorts of WMDs seven years
>>>> ago.
>>>
>>> Is that your best shot left-wingnut? Does the RULE OF LAW count
>>> with you or just LEFT WING DICTATORS?
>
>> The people have the right to change the law.
>
> BY THE RULE OF LAW, in a proper fashion.
At the ballot box. Demos-ocracy.
>>>>> It is extremely apparent that you and I share vastly different
>>>>> ideas of a democracy. In MY view the RULE OF LAW is what makes it a
>>>>> democracy.
>>>
>>>> Yeah, right.
>>>
>>> That includes the legislature and judiciary.
>
>> And includes coups?
>
> They had one in Italy didn't they with Mousolini?
He was a right winger too.
>>>>> Your position MIGHT have some merit to it, EXCEPT the FACTS that
>>>>> the Honduran Congress and Honduran Supreme Court found Zelaya's
>>>>> actions unlawful.
>>>
>>>> And the OAS and other international bodies have found the coup to be
>>>> illegal.
>
>>> Conside the leftisis who led the pack.
>
>> The right orchestrated an illegal coup.
>
> The "right" as YOU define it. Anybody who opposed Zelaya's attempt to
> become president for life.
I love how winning a second term is to become president for life. And
that's only an assumption, as the plebiscite was only to determine if
there would be a ballot for changing the constitution.
>>>>> He wished to use FORCE to get his way. Let's see what happens.
>>>>> Let's see in Venezuela makes good on its promise to intervene with
>>>>> its military. Hoooooooogo, your hero, has been building it up for 8
>>>>> years while the Venezuelan people live in crushing poverty despite
>>>>> the HUGE revenues from the state owned oil company that goes to
>>>>> military instead of feeding the people.
>>>
>>>> You must be thinking of the capitalist paradise of Equitorial Guinea.
>
>>> Nope. I confine my comments to YOUR democratic paradises, Cuba,
>>> Venezuela, Bolivia, and Nicaragua. All of which live under MARXIST
>>> DICTATORS. The kind YOU love that rule at gunpoint.
>
>> More lies from a proven lying sack of shit.
>
> So in YOUR WORLD Cuba IS a good democracy?
Bolivia, Cuba and Nicaragua are democracies. You are a fascist.
>>> Have you ever been out of your bathroom? Do you have a CLUE as to
>>> what life is like for the people in those places?
>
>> Says the fascist. Cuba was a wonderful place under Batista, eh?
>
> Of course not,
No? Isn't your wife pining for the good old days?
> HOWEVER, the people WERE better off under Batista in
> many important ways. The Cuban people had the 3rd highest standard of
> living in the Western Hemisphere.
Which Cuban people, the sugar plantation laborers or the gangsters?
> Only slightly behind Canada. They
> actually had MORE political freedom under Batista than they do now. You
> are not even well informed enough about Cuba to have even a WRONG
> OPINION about it.
You miss having a colony that was a haven for the mob, don't you?
Plato Been
"democrat opposing rightards," is simply a severely Criminal Mind.
'
Criminal Minds want to have everything seen and felt IN REVERSE
3 July 2009
{HRI 20090703-V1.0.1}
(Version 1.0.1
on 5 Jul 2009)
'
Criminal Minds have everything in reverse, and even their conscience
is in reverse:
They have the opposite of a normal conscience
(so, that good "is Evil," and Evil "is good").
'
All Insanity is caused by a refusal or inability to face Criminal
Minds.
Truth is absolute,
and not "a matter of opinion or viewpoint" - but parts of the
truth may have been omitted.
Truth is 'that what happened, caused by whom and with what
intentions.'
Facing the Truth about Criminal Minds, restores Sanity.
'
Koos Nolst Trenite 'Cause Trinity'
human rights philosopher and poet
'Men of all nations came
to listen to Solomon's wisdom,
sent by all the kings of the world,
who had heard of his wisdom.'
1 Kings 4:34
__________
References:
'Definition Of Insane - Relation To Humor' (DOI)
{HRI 20030205-V2.4}
(5 Feb 2003 - Version 2.4 on 1 July 2008)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/msg/020f0c2e172dab3d
'Definition of Peace' (DOP)
{HRI 20070520-V3.7.4}
(20 May 2007 - Version 3.7.4 on 5 June 2009)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.war.vietnam/msg/5ae1a4055a677ab0
'The Rights of Criminal Minds' (RCM)
{HRI 20040108-V2.0}
(8 January 2004 - Version 2.0 on 5 Jul 2009)
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.rights.human/msg/eb5fdc4cad16449b
'
____________
Verification:
http://www.angelfire.com/space/platoworld
Copyright 2009 by Koos Nolst Trenite - human rights philosopher
and poet
This is 'learnware' - it may not be altered, and it is free for
anyone who learns from it and (even if he can not learn from it)
who passes it on unaltered, and with this message included,
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of life and about themselves).
None of my writings may be used, ever, to support any political
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Send free-of-Envy and free-of-Hate, Beautiful e-mails to:
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krp
>>>> Come ON idjit - argue with me about Cuba.
>>
>>> Apparently Raul only got 99.37% in the 2008 election.
>> Out of HOW MANY OPOSING CANDIDATES???
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_legislative_election,_2008
>>> But that's not a democratic election, as there's only one candidate per
>>> seat. In Venezuela, Bolivia, Brazil, Nicaragua and probably Honduras if
>>> it is allowed, your right-wingers are losing free and fair elections -
>>> the right wing hates free and fair elections.
>>
>> BUT he *WAS* elected. In YOUR nook that means he can do anything he
>> wants. In Venzuela the opposition party has been banned. The leaders
>> jailed.
> For carrying out a coup that failed. Well, most of the sane world won't
> elect idiot right wingers if they have a choice - so you need your coups
> and your fixed constitutions.
What coup? Was that decided at a TRIAL, Jeffy? Or did
Oooooooooooooooooogo Chaffffesssss just DECREE it to be? Tell us all about
the COUP. Protest marches are now a COUP attempt?
Like the tea bag parties? Those are ILLEGAL COUP attempts and the ARMY
should shoot them down like dogs? Did they storm the presidential palace
with guns? Bombs? And of course making it a CRIME to criticize EL SUPREMO
is democratic, right? Shutting down ALL media not under STATE control, THAT
also is a PERFFECT DEMOCRACY??
>>>>>>>>>> and Hugo Chavez were democratically elected. I might mention that
>>>>>>>>>> Kim Il Jung of North Korea also was,
>>
>>>>>>>> Although Kim is not required to stand for popular election to his
>>>>>>>> key
>>>>>>>>> offices, he is unanimously elected to the Supreme People's
>>>>>>>>> Assembly
>>>>>>>>> every five years, representing a military constituency.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_jong_il
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again - YOUR kind of democracy!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Again more evidence you're a lying sack of shit.
>>>>
>>>>>> Come on Jeff, isn't Kim just YOUR kind of DEMOCRAT?
>>
>>> No, he's the perfect right wing candidate. He spends a huge budget on
>>> the military.
>>
>> So does Chavez and Castro. Do did the USSR right up to the day it
>> collapsed.
> I know you were scared of the Soviets invading. Wingnuts are the champs
> of paranoia. The US spends more than the rest of the world combined, so
> I can see why you admire Kim.
Admire that despot? He's YOUR boy not mine.
>>>>>>>> Yes, I AM afraid of THAT definition of democracy. You see there are
>>>>>>>> 3 branches of government (checks and balances) in a democracy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But the ultimate authority rests with the "demos," the people. That
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> the root of demo-cracy.
>>>>
>>>>>> Do the PEOPLE elect the legislature? So in YOUR definition, once
>>>>>> elected the President has the power , in YOUR view of DEMOCRACY, to
>>>>>> RULE BY DECREE?
>>>>
>>>>> Sounds more like Bush's signing statements.
>>
>>>> You were mouthing off about HONDURAS, Lefty.
>>
>>> Where the court stepped in to stop democracy - kind of like Floriduh.
>>> Followed by a military coup. Just what wingnuts love.
>>
>> So we CANNOT trust the legislature or judiciary. ONLY - - EL SUPREMO
>> because he was elected.
> Only the military dictator, apparently. The people have the right to
> set their own constitution regardless of the opinions of a handful
> of right wing jurists.
Yes the people DO, Jeffy. The Honduran people already have a
Constitution AND a lawful process to change it. Zelaya tried to circumvent
that process so he could be PRESIDENT FOR LIFE like his buddies the Castro
brothers and Oooooooooooooooooogo Chafffesssss!
The guy who keeps SCREAMING that HE is the ONLY LEGAL comandante en jefe
Is Zeleya. He demanded the Army do things that violated the Constitution,
and when the commanding General of the Army refused to break the law, Zeleya
went and DECREED somebody who would do his bidding to the post despite THAT
ALSO being a violation of the Constitution. Again the FACT rfemains that the
issue was taken to the Supreme Court of Honduras they found Zeleya's actions
to be violating gthe Constitution and ordered him to stop. He refused. The
legislature also acted and he refused. YOU want to pit ONE MAN against all
those that the PEOPLE elected and have constitutional offices. ONE MAN
rule - Jeffy - IS by definition a dictatorship. It sure as hell is NOT
democracy.
>>>>> The current crisis was sparked on Wednesday when the armed forces
>>>>> apparently told the president that they wouldn't distribute the
>>>>> ballots
>>>>> for Sunday's vote, a role the army traditionally plays
>>>>
>>>> You OMIT (and we all really WONDER why) (NOT) that the Honduran
>>>> Supreme Court had ruled Zelaya's BALLOT tgo be unconstitutional. Don't
>>>> troops have the right to disobey an UNLAWFUL ORDER from a wannabe
>>>> despot?
>>> Now the troops are firing on peaceful demonstrations. We've got the
>>> traditional right-wing despot going on here.
>
>> Like they do in your Iranian Democracy?
> Like they do in all the right wing dictatorships you love.
So you see Iran as a right wing dictatorship, as well as North Korea.
Interesting, what of Cuba and Venezuela?
>>> http://www.telesurtv.net/solotexto/senal_vivo.php
>>
>>>>> http://www.irnnews.com/news.asp?action=detail&article=26342
>>>>
>>>>>> I have a problem when EL SUPREMO disregards the Constitution and
>>>>>> RULES BY DECREE and does whatever the hell he wants in complete
>>>>>> DISRESPECT to the people, to his Congress and to the Supreme Court,
>>>>>> and when the commander of the Army REFUSES to have his troops used
>>>>>> AGAINST the people, EL SUPREMO, fires him and appoints somebody who
>>>>>> WILL obey his orders.
>>>>
>>>>> You've got a hyperactive imagination. Seek psychiatric help. It's
>>>>> not
>>>>> surprising, though. Wingnuts imagined all sorts of WMDs seven years
>>>>> ago.
>>>>
>>>> Is that your best shot left-wingnut? Does the RULE OF LAW count with
>>>> you or just LEFT WING DICTATORS?
>>
>>> The people have the right to change the law.
>>
>> BY THE RULE OF LAW, in a proper fashion.
> At the ballot box. Demos-ocracy.
In a LAWFUL and OPEN vote. Even Zeleya's OWN party denounce what he is
trying to do. The Supreme Court found his actions unconstitutional, the
Honduran Legislature did, and the Army refused his orders as
unconstitutional. Jeffy there are ALWAYS militant minority groups in every
country. A country cannot be a democracy under mob rule, under the tyranny
of the minority.
>>>>>> It is extremely apparent that you and I share vastly different
>>>>>> ideas of a democracy. In MY view the RULE OF LAW is what makes it a
>>>>>> democracy.
>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, right.
>>>>
>>>> That includes the legislature and judiciary.
>>
>>> And includes coups?
>> They had one in Italy didn't they with Mousolini?
> He was a right winger too.
But his actions in Italy MIRROR those of Zelaya.
>>>>>> Your position MIGHT have some merit to it, EXCEPT the FACTS that the
>>>>>> Honduran Congress and Honduran Supreme Court found Zelaya's actions
>>>>>> unlawful.
>>>>
>>>>> And the OAS and other international bodies have found the coup to be
>>>>> illegal.
>>
>>>> Conside the leftisis who led the pack.
>>
>>> The right orchestrated an illegal coup.
>>
>> The "right" as YOU define it. Anybody who opposed Zelaya's attempt to
>> become president for life.
> I love how winning a second term is to become president for life. And
> that's only an assumption, as the plebiscite was only to determine if
> there would be a ballot for changing the constitution.
There is a Constitutioanl process Jeff. WHY couldn't he follow it?
krp
>> So in YOUR WORLD Cuba IS a good democracy?
> Bolivia, Cuba and Nicaragua are democracies. You are a fascist.
So you believe Cuba IS a democracy? Please explain.
>>>> Have you ever been out of your bathroom? Do you have a CLUE as to what
>>>> life is like for the people in those places?
>>> Says the fascist. Cuba was a wonderful place under Batista, eh?
>> Of course not,
> No? Isn't your wife pining for the good old days?
Not really, she was born after the Castros came to power in a COUP.
>> HOWEVER, the people WERE better off under Batista in many important ways.
>> The Cuban people had the 3rd highest standard of living in the Western
>> Hemisphere.
> Which Cuban people, the sugar plantation laborers or the gangsters?
The average Cuban. Your ignorance of Cuba is profound. What a tribute to
the educational system you suffered with. Batista was a brutal, criminal
dictator. HOWEVER - the people had food and other necessities of life. Clean
water, and a FREE press. Cuba had many newspapers and radio and TV stations.
There are on the net some before and after photos of Cuba. Before Castro and
after. IF you had even ONE clue, you'd know that the average worker in Cuba
exists on $10 a MONTH. Not an hour, or a week or even a day, but $10 a
MONTH! You have a big mouth little boy but NO knowledge to back it up. The
funny thing IS that those sugar plantations (some owned by Castro's daddy)
paid MORE a week than the Cuban worker of today makes in a couple months
today. People would gripe about the government in public and not get
"detained." Yeah the Mafia was there. However the Cuban economy thrived off
it. Cuba HAD a large middle class. No longer. It has the ELITE and then
everyone else.
Calling Cuba a "democracy" is all the proof anyone with a brain needs
that you are ignorant.
>> Only slightly behind Canada. They actually had MORE political freedom
>> under Batista than they do now. You are not even well informed enough
>> about Cuba to have even a WRONG OPINION about it.
> You miss having a colony that was a haven for the mob, don't you?
As bad as it was, and it WAS bad, it was better than what they have
today. If I had been a bit older I might have gone to Cuba to fight the
revolution, BUT I would have been betrayed as the Cuban people have been.
This is a subject you REALLY don't want to engage me on little boy.
krp
> krp wrote:
>>
>> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
>> news:NoOdnV6Sfs_VVM3X...@posted.localnet...
>>
>>>>> The Constitution allows for a National Assembly to change it. That is
>>>>> what the question was going to be, whether to have an assembly with
>>>>> the
>>>>> power to change the constitution.
>>>>
>>>> NO! That is a LIE! The issue was to extend Zelaya's term FOR LIFE.
>>
>>> Take your meds. Even getting re-elected is not "president for life."
>>
>> We'll forget that the Constitution forbids re-election at all. Zelaya
>> is BEST BUDDIES with the brothers Castro and Hooooooooooooooogo
>> Chaffezzzzz EL SUPREMO. We'll forget that the Honduran Constitution
>> forbids nationalizing private property and Zelaya DID just that BY
>> DECREE. The Honduran Constitution places LIMITS on presidential power
>> and forbids RULE BY DECREE.
>
> Apparently there are no limits on the illegal government.
>
> OAS Should Press de Facto Leaders to Restore Rights and End Abuse of
> Demonstrators
A riot is a riot is a riot.
krp
Funny - *I* seem to be able to support the "facts" you allege I made up.
>>
>> CARACAS, Venezuela, Oct. 15 (UPI) -- In 2006 and 2007 Venezuela's air
>> force purchased 36 Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30 "Flanker-C" fighters, of
>> which 24 already are in service and the remaining 12 will be delivered
>> before the end of 2009. However, President Hugo Chavez has also placed an
>> order for 24 state-of-the-art Russian Sukhoi Su-35 "Flanker-E" fighters
>> with delivery starting by 2010.
>>
>> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Venezuela_buys_more_weapons,_now_from_Spain
>>
>> Venezuelan President Hugo Ch�vez said that "the weapons are not
>> instruments of war but instruments of peace". According to Ch�vez, the
>> ships will be used to step up Venezuela's coastal patrols against the
>> drug trade.
>> I believe Hoooooooooooooooooooooogo, don't you? GUNS FOR PEACE! Where
>> have I heard that shit before???
> George W. Bush as he invaded two countries in the name of seeking peace?
Iraq was one, what is the other?
> I'm sorry if some countries have to defend themselves from the
> well-armed fascists that you support.
Such as WHO?
krp
"Matt" <ma...@themattfella.xxxyyz.com> wrote in message
news:2xe4m.21256$c82....@newsfe08.iad...
I was agreeing with Bill.
Jeffrey Turner
Ah, The Party. Yes, the good citizen must follow the dictates of The
Party. But the party is not the ultimate repository of power in a
democracy.
> The Supreme Court found his actions unconstitutional,
But the people retain the right to change the constitution despite the
opinion of the supreme court.
> the Honduran Legislature did, and the Army refused his orders as
The legislature is subordinate to the people. And the army is never the
final authority in a democracy.
> unconstitutional. Jeffy there are ALWAYS militant minority groups in
> every country. A country cannot be a democracy under mob rule, under the
> tyranny of the minority.
You support the minority. You refuse to allow the majority to have its
say.
>>>>>>> It is extremely apparent that you and I share vastly different
>>>>>>> ideas of a democracy. In MY view the RULE OF LAW is what makes it
>>>>>>> a democracy.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, right.
>>>>>
>>>>> That includes the legislature and judiciary.
>>>
>>>> And includes coups?
>
>>> They had one in Italy didn't they with Mousolini?
>
>> He was a right winger too.
>
> But his actions in Italy MIRROR those of Zelaya.
Did he get elected to a limited term for all his years in power? A
dictator isn't a dictator if he keeps getting elected.
>>>>>>> Your position MIGHT have some merit to it, EXCEPT the FACTS that
>>>>>>> the Honduran Congress and Honduran Supreme Court found Zelaya's
>>>>>>> actions unlawful.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And the OAS and other international bodies have found the coup to be
>>>>>> illegal.
>>>
>>>>> Conside the leftisis who led the pack.
>>>
>>>> The right orchestrated an illegal coup.
>>>
>>> The "right" as YOU define it. Anybody who opposed Zelaya's attempt
>>> to become president for life.
>
>> I love how winning a second term is to become president for life. And
>> that's only an assumption, as the plebiscite was only to determine if
>> there would be a ballot for changing the constitution.
>
> There is a Constitutioanl process Jeff. WHY couldn't he follow it?
There isn't a constitutional process, according to the supreme court.
The people have been forbidden from changing their own rules, and that
violates the principles of democracy. Or outline the process for
changing the whole constitution here ->
Jeffrey Turner
> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
>
>>> So in YOUR WORLD Cuba IS a good democracy?
>
>> Bolivia, Cuba and Nicaragua are democracies. You are a fascist.
>
> So you believe Cuba IS a democracy? Please explain.
I meant to type Bolivia, Venezuela and Nicaragua.
>>>>> Have you ever been out of your bathroom? Do you have a CLUE as to
>>>>> what life is like for the people in those places?
>
>>>> Says the fascist. Cuba was a wonderful place under Batista, eh?
>
>>> Of course not,
>
>> No? Isn't your wife pining for the good old days?
>
> Not really, she was born after the Castros came to power in a COUP.
A coup against a dictator.
>>> HOWEVER, the people WERE better off under Batista in many important
>>> ways. The Cuban people had the 3rd highest standard of living in the
>>> Western Hemisphere.
>
>> Which Cuban people, the sugar plantation laborers or the gangsters?
>
> The average Cuban. Your ignorance of Cuba is profound. What a tribute
> to the educational system you suffered with. Batista was a brutal,
> criminal dictator. HOWEVER - the people had food and other necessities
> of life. Clean water, and a FREE press. Cuba had many newspapers and
> radio and TV stations. There are on the net some before and after photos
> of Cuba. Before Castro and after. IF you had even ONE clue, you'd know
> that the average worker in Cuba exists on $10 a MONTH. Not an hour, or a
> week or even a day, but $10 a MONTH!
The average wage at the end of 2005 was 334 regular pesos per month
($16.70 per month) and the average pension was $9 per month.[145]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba
> You have a big mouth little boy but
> NO knowledge to back it up. The funny thing IS that those sugar
> plantations (some owned by Castro's daddy) paid MORE a week than the
> Cuban worker of today makes in a couple months today. People would gripe
> about the government in public and not get "detained." Yeah the Mafia
> was there. However the Cuban economy thrived off it. Cuba HAD a large
> middle class. No longer. It has the ELITE and then everyone else.
If everything was so good, why did Castro have so much support and
Batista so little? You've gotten the exile history of Cuba.
> Calling Cuba a "democracy" is all the proof anyone with a brain needs
> that you are ignorant.
A mistake. You keep throwing around real democracies that don't like
wingnuts either.
>>> Only slightly behind Canada. They actually had MORE political freedom
>>> under Batista than they do now. You are not even well informed enough
>>> about Cuba to have even a WRONG OPINION about it.
>
>> You miss having a colony that was a haven for the mob, don't you?
>
> As bad as it was, and it WAS bad, it was better than what they have
> today. If I had been a bit older I might have gone to Cuba to fight the
> revolution, BUT I would have been betrayed as the Cuban people have
> been. This is a subject you REALLY don't want to engage me on little boy.
Cuba has too little freedom. But it is also better off than capitalist
paradises like Haiti, where the freedoms include to starve or eat dirt,
and to die young.
Jeffrey Turner
>
One man asking the people if they want to rewrite the constitution.
The people get to decide, not the army or even the court and the
legislature.
Jeffrey Turner
And we're all laughing at you. Those were peaceful demonstrations. Of
course the right wing is afraid of democracy.
Ramon F Herrera
>
> >>> So in YOUR WORLD Cuba IS a good democracy?
>
> >> Bolivia, Cuba and Nicaragua are democracies. You are a fascist.
>
> > So you believe Cuba IS a democracy? Please explain.
>
> I meant to type Bolivia, Venezuela and Nicaragua.
Good grief! I am torn about the following. I am not sure what is more
frustrating and comical:
- A typical gringo who is completely clueless about Latin America.
- Some "half baked" gringo like Jeff Turner, who knows enough to say
the most incredible stupidities.
Should Jeff travel to one of the mentioned countries, his love affair
with the Latin America left will soon cease to exist. I'll give him a
week, tops.
The typical pinko (or not) ignoramus gringo has this simplistic
parallelism:
The right parties in Venezuela (or Honduras, etc.) are like the GOP
while the left parties are like the Democrats. Therefore, I should
support the commies in those countries.
Such naive concept shows great political myopia.
-Ramon
Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )
So to be clear, if Obama "asked the people" to rewrite the
Constitution, you'd be all fine with that?
Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )
Everyone should be afraid of democracy.
Jeffrey Turner
> On Jul 6, 1:30 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>> krp wrote:
>>> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>>>> So in YOUR WORLD Cuba IS a good democracy?
>>>> Bolivia, Cuba and Nicaragua are democracies. You are a fascist.
>>> So you believe Cuba IS a democracy? Please explain.
>
> > I meant to type Bolivia, Venezuela and Nicaragua.
>
> Good grief! I am torn about the following. I am not sure what is more
> frustrating and comical:
>
> - A typical gringo who is completely clueless about Latin America.
Since you support coups and not elections, I'm not terribly offended.
> - Some "half baked" gringo like Jeff Turner, who knows enough to say
> the most incredible stupidities.
>
> Should Jeff travel to one of the mentioned countries, his love affair
> with the Latin America left will soon cease to exist. I'll give him a
> week, tops.
Who knows if I'd live a week in a right wing paradise like Colombia.
You support the real tyrannies.
> The typical pinko (or not) ignoramus gringo has this simplistic
> parallelism:
>
> The right parties in Venezuela (or Honduras, etc.) are like the GOP
> while the left parties are like the Democrats. Therefore, I should
> support the commies in those countries.
>
> Such naive concept shows great political myopia.
The right parties in Latin America have been worse than the Republicans.
Can you say "death squads"? And the left parties are further left than
the Democrats. I get the impression Zelaya's party was like the
Democrats because they deserted him when it came to giving the people a
voice. One article said they were supporters of business.
Jeffrey Turner
The people of the US can rewrite their constitution with enough votes.
Hondurans should have the same opportunity.
Jeffrey Turner
>
I'm afraid of lying demagogues, like Bush. But the solution is more
democracy - a better informed public.
Jeffrey Turner
You've forgotten Afghanistan already?
The paramilitaries. Those who plot and carry out coups. Those who
kill their political opponents. The right wing thinks they have the
right to govern regardless of what most of the people want. And they
are not afraid to use intimidation to do it.
Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )
The Constitution sits in opposition, a check, on democracy.
Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )
There is no process by which a national referendum allows Americans
to change their Constitution.
krp
>>>> So in YOUR WORLD Cuba IS a good democracy?
>>
>>> Bolivia, Cuba and Nicaragua are democracies. You are a fascist.
>
>> So you believe Cuba IS a democracy? Please explain.
> I meant to type Bolivia, Venezuela and Nicaragua.
Alas you SLIPPED and typed in CUBA - knowing it was CUBA I was making an
issue about. Are you now admitting that Cuba is about a FAR freom being a
democracy as you can get? Venezuela is as much a police state as Cuba is.
>>>>>> Have you ever been out of your bathroom? Do you have a CLUE as to
>>>>>> what life is like for the people in those places?
>
>>>>> Says the fascist. Cuba was a wonderful place under Batista, eh?
>>
>>>> Of course not,
>>
>>> No? Isn't your wife pining for the good old days?
>>
>> Not really, she was born after the Castros came to power in a COUP.
> A coup against a dictator.
As Zelaya was a WANNABE dictator.
>>>> HOWEVER, the people WERE better off under Batista in many important
>>>> ways. The Cuban people had the 3rd highest standard of living in the
>>>> Western Hemisphere.
>>> Which Cuban people, the sugar plantation laborers or the gangsters?
>> The average Cuban. Your ignorance of Cuba is profound. What a tribute
>> to the educational system you suffered with. Batista was a brutal,
>> criminal dictator. HOWEVER - the people had food and other necessities of
>> life. Clean water, and a FREE press. Cuba had many newspapers and radio
>> and TV stations. There are on the net some before and after photos of
>> Cuba. Before Castro and after. IF you had even ONE clue, you'd know that
>> the average worker in Cuba exists on $10 a MONTH. Not an hour, or a week
>> or even a day, but $10 a MONTH!
> The average wage at the end of 2005 was 334 regular pesos per month
> ($16.70 per month) and the average pension was $9 per month.[145]
That would come as welcome news to the majority who work for far less.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba
Small problem with Wiki's SINGLE source on that subject. It isn't
accurate. BUT even so $16.70 a month is below the U.N.'s POVERTY wage of
$2.00 a day per month.
>> You have a big mouth little boy but NO knowledge to back it up. The funny
>> thing IS that those sugar plantations (some owned by Castro's daddy) paid
>> MORE a week than the Cuban worker of today makes in a couple months
>> today. People would gripe about the government in public and not get
>> "detained." Yeah the Mafia was there. However the Cuban economy thrived
>> off it. Cuba HAD a large middle class. No longer. It has the ELITE and
>> then everyone else.
> If everything was so good, why did Castro have so much support and
> Batista so little? You've gotten the exile history of Cuba.
Because HE - like so many MARXIST DICTATORS (Chavez) LIED to the people
about his REAL agenda. Actually much of the real force behind the downfall
of Batista came from the University Students in Havana. The PROMISE was to
restore the Constitution of 1942. Castro didn't, and IF it was such a
perfect democracy a land of milk and honey, WHY have almost 4 MILLION people
fled your PARADISE? Best estimates are that over 100,000 a year TRY to
leave. (Balseros etc) and the waiting list for emigration visas to the U.S.
ALONE are 550,000 a YEAR. Hartdly rings of a HUGE popular success, does it?
>> Calling Cuba a "democracy" is all the proof anyone with a brain needs
>> that you are ignorant.
> A mistake. You keep throwing around real democracies that don't like
> wingnuts either.
Not a small mistake. I kept warning you - do NOT engage me on Cuba, I
have spent lots of time there and have family all over the island. The TRUTH
about Cuba is NOT what Washington claims, and not what Havana claims either.
There is plenty of bullshit to go around. The problem between you and I is
that you talk out of your ass about subjects which you know NOTHING about.
>>>> Only slightly behind Canada. They actually had MORE political freedom
>>>> under Batista than they do now. You are not even well informed enough
>>>> about Cuba to have even a WRONG OPINION about it.
>>> You miss having a colony that was a haven for the mob, don't you?
>> As bad as it was, and it WAS bad, it was better than what they have
>> today. If I had been a bit older I might have gone to Cuba to fight the
>> revolution, BUT I would have been betrayed as the Cuban people have been.
>> This is a subject you REALLY don't want to engage me on little boy.
> Cuba has too little freedom. But it is also better off than capitalist
> paradises like Haiti, where the freedoms include to starve or eat dirt,
> and to die young.
Calling Haiti a "capitalist state" is AS absurd as calling Cuba
"DEMOCRACY." In central America I doubt ANY nation could be called
"capitalist." I think the same is true for South America. The problem with
Latin America is its inheritance of CORRUPTION from the Spanish colonials.
Spain's contribution to the Americas was to infest the continent with its
WORST criminal element. Sometime ask the native people's of the America's
about the Spanish and why Columbus et all are so HATED amongst them. The
United States and Canada are the main exceptions to the vast majority of the
Americas with Costa Rica as a bright exception. But you haven't a clue
about Cuba. It's not a democracy by any real standard, but that doesn't make
it all bad. You are the one with the problem of needing to throw the baby
out with the bathwater. But then you are confronted by this REALITY -
socialism doesn't work and cannot long exist outside a POLICE STATE.
Matt
One thing I have seen all over the web is a lot of very
english-articulate people claiming to be Hondurans or at least living in
Honduras. Most of them are arguing very effectively to preserve the
Constitution. I don't suspect much that they are all fakes.
Another thing that really sticks out is the dearth of primary documents
translated into English. For instance I haven't been able to find a
copy of the Constitution in English. I've found only a few copies in
Spanish, and I haven't been convinced that they are current with the
latest amendments. I haven't been able to find any character-based copy
of PCM-020-2009 (the plebiscite ruled illegal) in English or Spanish,
although I found a barely-readable scanned copy in Spanish. Would it
take a day's work to make a passable translation of that into English?
I haven't found the pertinent court rulings or warrants in any form.
It shouldn't be a full-time job to find this stuff.
If the people down there want help, or, more realistically, tolerance
and noninterference from the North, they will have to get their message
out in a practical way to everybody. The primary materials have to be
available to everybody in order to get around the monopolistic selective
international news media. Then the truth could be used to inhibit the
US and EU policies that make things worse for the rule of law in Honduras.
Unfortunately, things like scolding Americans for being monolingual or
advising them to come down and see for themselves aren't as effective as
we might like.
Not to minimize your activity, Ramon, as I know it takes a lot for
somebody to stand up as you have ...
IMO
Orval Fairbairn
Jeffrey Turner <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
No -- it was for opposing the great Hugo!
> >>>>>>>>> and Hugo Chavez were democratically elected. I might mention
> >>>>>>>>> that Kim Il Jung of North Korea also was,
> >
> >>>>>>> Although Kim is not required to stand for popular election to his
> >>>>>>> key
> >>>>>>>> offices, he is unanimously elected to the Supreme People's Assembly
> >>>>>>>> every five years, representing a military constituency.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_jong_il
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Again - YOUR kind of democracy!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Again more evidence you're a lying sack of shit.
> >>>
> >>>>> Come on Jeff, isn't Kim just YOUR kind of DEMOCRAT?
> >
> >> No, he's the perfect right wing candidate. He spends a huge budget on
> >> the military.
> >
> > So does Chavez and Castro. Do did the USSR right up to the day it
> > collapsed.
>
> I know you were scared of the Soviets invading. Wingnuts are the champs
> of paranoia. The US spends more than the rest of the world combined, so
> I can see why you admire Kim.
Lefties are the fools and "useful idiots" whom tyrants love to encourage.
> >>>>>>> Yes, I AM afraid of THAT definition of democracy. You see there
> >>>>>>> are 3 branches of government (checks and balances) in a democracy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> But the ultimate authority rests with the "demos," the people.
> >>>>>> That is
> >>>>>> the root of demo-cracy.
> >>>
> >>>>> Do the PEOPLE elect the legislature? So in YOUR definition, once
> >>>>> elected the President has the power , in YOUR view of DEMOCRACY, to
> >>>>> RULE BY DECREE?
> >>>
> >>>> Sounds more like Bush's signing statements.
> >
> >>> You were mouthing off about HONDURAS, Lefty.
> >
> >> Where the court stepped in to stop democracy - kind of like Floriduh.
> >> Followed by a military coup. Just what wingnuts love.
> >
> > So we CANNOT trust the legislature or judiciary. ONLY - - EL
> > SUPREMO because he was elected.
>
> Only the military dictator, apparently. The people have the right to
> set their own constitution regardless of the opinions of a handful
> of right wing jurists.
The court backed the legislature, which refused to go along with
Zelaya's "special election" using ballots printed in Venezuela.
THey were following the dictates of the court and the legislature.
Right wing, left wing -- they are ALL tyranies!
And anybody who claims that Bolivia, Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua have
anything but authoritarian rule is a fool.
> >>> Have you ever been out of your bathroom? Do you have a CLUE as to
> >>> what life is like for the people in those places?
> >
> >> Says the fascist. Cuba was a wonderful place under Batista, eh?
> >
> > Of course not,
>
> No? Isn't your wife pining for the good old days?
>
> > HOWEVER, the people WERE better off under Batista in
> > many important ways. The Cuban people had the 3rd highest standard of
> > living in the Western Hemisphere.
>
> Which Cuban people, the sugar plantation laborers or the gangsters?
They were better than the Castro gangsters!
> > Only slightly behind Canada. They
> > actually had MORE political freedom under Batista than they do now. You
> > are not even well informed enough about Cuba to have even a WRONG
> > OPINION about it.
>
> You miss having a colony that was a haven for the mob, don't you?
>
> --Jeff
--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
krp
>> In a LAWFUL and OPEN vote. Even Zeleya's OWN party denounce what he is
>> trying to do.
> Ah, The Party. Yes, the good citizen must follow the dictates of The
> Party. But the party is not the ultimate repository of power in a
> democracy.
Of course, butg the point is that other than a FEW people - ALL of the
legitimate insttutions of Hunduras opposed the shit Zelaya was trying to do.
>> The Supreme Court found his actions unconstitutional,
> But the people retain the right to change the constitution despite the
> opinion of the supreme court.
Yes in a PRESCRIBED LEGAL WAY as spelled out BY the Constitution, NOT
thw ay Zelaya was gtrying to do it. He LOST in the courts, he LOST in the
legislature and what YOU argue for is ONE MAN RULE.
>> the Honduran Legislature did, and the Army refused his orders as
> The legislature is subordinate to the people. And the army is never the
> final authority in a democracy.
The legislature and the military and the Supreme Court are institutions.
YOU advocate ONE MAN RULE = DICTATORSHIP!
>> unconstitutional. Jeffy there are ALWAYS militant minority groups in
>> every country. A country cannot be a democracy under mob rule, under the
>> tyranny of the minority.
> You support the minority. You refuse to allow the majority to have its
> say.
Not at all. There IS a Constutional process. Zeleya wanted to rule by
DECREE inbventing his own process with a flawed and dishonest election. And
WITHOUT DEBATE.
>>>>>>>> It is extremely apparent that you and I share vastly different
>>>>>>>> ideas of a democracy. In MY view the RULE OF LAW is what makes it a
>>>>>>>> democracy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That includes the legislature and judiciary.
>>>>
>>>>> And includes coups?
>>
>>>> They had one in Italy didn't they with Mousolini?
>>
>>> He was a right winger too.
>>
>> But his actions in Italy MIRROR those of Zelaya.
> Did he get elected to a limited term for all his years in power? A
> dictator isn't a dictator if he keeps getting elected.
Under Honduran LAW (Constitution) the President cannot run for
reelection much less be President for LIFE. For damn good reasons the
Constitution LIMITS the term to ONE. Zelaya wants to be PRESIDENT FOR LIFE -
EL SUPREMO!
>>>>>>>> Your position MIGHT have some merit to it, EXCEPT the FACTS that
>>>>>>>> the Honduran Congress and Honduran Supreme Court found Zelaya's
>>>>>>>> actions unlawful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the OAS and other international bodies have found the coup to be
>>>>>>> illegal.
>>>>
>>>>>> Conside the leftisis who led the pack.
>>>>
>>>>> The right orchestrated an illegal coup.
>>>>
>>>> The "right" as YOU define it. Anybody who opposed Zelaya's attempt
>>>> to become president for life.
>>
>>> I love how winning a second term is to become president for life. And
>>> that's only an assumption, as the plebiscite was only to determine if
>>> there would be a ballot for changing the constitution.
>>
>> There is a Constitutioanl process Jeff. WHY couldn't he follow it?
> There isn't a constitutional process, according to the supreme court.
> The people have been forbidden from changing their own rules, and that
> violates the principles of democracy. Or outline the process for
> changing the whole constitution here
That's not true. There IS a process for amending the Constitution. It
does not allow for QUICKIE votes with NO informed debate. YOU keep harping
that Zeleya was ELECTED - weren't the legislators elected too? It wasn't
like the l;egislature's vote was close. It was damn near UNANIMOUS. Tell us
WHY is Zelaya's election TRUMP over all the other elected officials?
krp
>>>>
>>>>>>> The Constitution allows for a National Assembly to change it. That
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> what the question was going to be, whether to have an assembly with
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> power to change the constitution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NO! That is a LIE! The issue was to extend Zelaya's term FOR LIFE.
>>>>
>>>>> Take your meds. Even getting re-elected is not "president for life."
>>>>
>>>> We'll forget that the Constitution forbids re-election at all.
>>>> Zelaya is BEST BUDDIES with the brothers Castro and Hooooooooooooooogo
>>>> Chaffezzzzz EL SUPREMO. We'll forget that the Honduran Constitution
>>>> forbids nationalizing private property and Zelaya DID just that BY
>>>> DECREE. The Honduran Constitution places LIMITS on presidential power
>>>> and forbids RULE BY DECREE.
>>>
>>> Apparently there are no limits on the illegal government.
>>>
>>> OAS Should Press de Facto Leaders to Restore Rights and End Abuse of
>>> Demonstrators
>>
>> A riot is a riot is a riot.
>
> And we're all laughing at you. Those were peaceful demonstrations. Of
> course the right wing is afraid of democracy.
"Peaceful demonstrators" throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails. YEAH
RIGHT!
krp
So this was caused by GEORGE W. BUSH? Ding dong, the fries are done.
krp
>>>> How is it a right wing coup if the supreme court, legislature and
>>>> military are all on one side against one man trying to rewrite the
>>>> constitutional to his whim? A legislature can usually remove the
>>>> executive, it's often called "impeachment" and "removal".
>>> One man asking the people if they want to rewrite the constitution.
>>> The people get to decide, not the army or even the court and the
>>> legislature.
>>>
>> So to be clear, if Obama "asked the people" to rewrite the
>> Constitution, you'd be all fine with that?
>
> The people of the US can rewrite their constitution with enough votes.
> Hondurans should have the same opportunity.
Is THAT how it works in the U.S. Jeffy? Obama can just CALL a plebiscite
and change the Constitution? Jesus, you are even MORE pig ignorant than I
though. You have a SMALL excuse for NOT KNOWING the Constitutional amendment
process in Honduras since you have never been out of your own bathroom. But
NOT knowing how the U.S. Constitution is amended is just STUPID!
krp
"Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
news:4A5269C3...@yahoo.co.uk...
Jeff's TOTAL IGNORANCE is something to behold. He has NO IDEA - not
even a glimmer of a clue as to HOW the Constitution is amended much less HOW
a "Constitutional Convention" would be convened. He believes that it should
be by the vote of the people. IF that had been the case there would be NO
black people that survived in the U.S. because lynching would have been the
law of the land, THANK GOD the Constitution protects us from immediate
passions and allows a cooler process that is deliberative instead of fits of
temper tantrums some DICTATOR wants.
krp
>>> George W. Bush as he invaded two countries in the name of seeking peace?
>> Iraq was one, what is the other?
> You've forgotten Afghanistan already?
Don't you recall that the war in Afghanistan had something to do with
the attack on the U.S. on 9-11-01 launched FROM Afghanistan? Seeking peace?
Seeking to end a war THEY started.
(Taliban)
>> Such as WHO?
What paramilitaries are those? The ones in Africa? The ones in the
middle-east run by MULLAHS? How do YOU know what "most of the people want?"
Tell me Jeffy, what do MOST of the people in Cuba want? Honduras? Then tell
us how you KNOW these things to be facts.
krp
"Orval Fairbairn" <o_r_fairbairn@earth_link.net> wrote in message
news:o_r_fairbairn-637...@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net...
Which was made a CRIME in Venezuala by DECREE of EL SUPREMO hisself!
Also banning independent news, TV and radio as well as print and BANNING
things on the internet. That is JEFF'S idea of a DEMOCRACY! Rule by decree.
>> >>>>>>>>> and Hugo Chavez were democratically elected. I might mention
>> >>>>>>>>> that Kim Il Jung of North Korea also was,
>> >
>> >>>>>>> Although Kim is not required to stand for popular election to his
>> >>>>>>> key
>> >>>>>>>> offices, he is unanimously elected to the Supreme People's
>> >>>>>>>> Assembly
>> >>>>>>>> every five years, representing a military constituency.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_jong_il
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Again - YOUR kind of democracy!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Again more evidence you're a lying sack of shit.
>> >>>
>> >>>>> Come on Jeff, isn't Kim just YOUR kind of DEMOCRAT?
>> >
>> >> No, he's the perfect right wing candidate. He spends a huge budget on
>> >> the military.
>> >
>> > So does Chavez and Castro. Do did the USSR right up to the day it
>> > collapsed.
>>
>> I know you were scared of the Soviets invading. Wingnuts are the champs
>> of paranoia. The US spends more than the rest of the world combined, so
>> I can see why you admire Kim.
> Lefties are the fools and "useful idiots" whom tyrants love to encourage.
This guy Jeff is the MOST ignorant ass I have seen in a long time.
>> >>>>>>> Yes, I AM afraid of THAT definition of democracy. You see there
>> >>>>>>> are 3 branches of government (checks and balances) in a
>> >>>>>>> democracy.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> But the ultimate authority rests with the "demos," the people.
>> >>>>>> That is
>> >>>>>> the root of demo-cracy.
>> >>>
>> >>>>> Do the PEOPLE elect the legislature? So in YOUR definition, once
>> >>>>> elected the President has the power , in YOUR view of DEMOCRACY, to
>> >>>>> RULE BY DECREE?
>> >>>
>> >>>> Sounds more like Bush's signing statements.
>> >
>> >>> You were mouthing off about HONDURAS, Lefty.
>> >
>> >> Where the court stepped in to stop democracy - kind of like Floriduh.
>> >> Followed by a military coup. Just what wingnuts love.
>> >
>> > So we CANNOT trust the legislature or judiciary. ONLY - - EL
>> > SUPREMO because he was elected.
>>
>> Only the military dictator, apparently. The people have the right to
>> set their own constitution regardless of the opinions of a handful
>> of right wing jurists.
> The court backed the legislature, which refused to go along with
> Zelaya's "special election" using ballots printed in Venezuela.
SAMPLE BALLOT:
1. To make Zelaya EL SUPREMO.
2. Shoot me right now.
> They were following the dictates of the court and the legislature.
Jeff seems to think the military should be independent of everyone BUT
the dictator.
The extremes sure are.
Ya think????? Are you suggesting that Jeff is an IDIOT?
>> >>> Have you ever been out of your bathroom? Do you have a CLUE as to
>> >>> what life is like for the people in those places?
>> >
>> >> Says the fascist. Cuba was a wonderful place under Batista, eh?
>> >
>> > Of course not,
>> No? Isn't your wife pining for the good old days?
>> > HOWEVER, the people WERE better off under Batista in
>> > many important ways. The Cuban people had the 3rd highest standard of
>> > living in the Western Hemisphere.
>>
>> Which Cuban people, the sugar plantation laborers or the gangsters?
> They were better than the Castro gangsters!
At least they had FOOD under the criminal Batista. Exchanging one
dictator for another is the history of Latin America. Cuba had real
democracy only for a bried period of time before corruption ended it and
brought a succession od dictatorships.
>> > Only slightly behind Canada. They
>> > actually had MORE political freedom under Batista than they do now. You
>> > are not even well informed enough about Cuba to have even a WRONG
>> > OPINION about it.
>> You miss having a colony that was a haven for the mob, don't you?
Jeff seems to NOT realize that all that happened is they got rid of ONE
mob in exchange for another that is even worse.
Orval Fairbairn
Jeffrey Turner <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
WRONG!!! The courts and legislature have to approve both the content of
the referendum and the scheduling of an election. In the USA, we have
established referendum processes, in which the supreme courts in the
states review ballot measures for adherance to constitutionally-set
requirements; the legislatures establish the election processes (whether
to call for a special election or to include the proposed measures in
the next regularly-scheduled election.
From what I have gathered, Zelaya wanted to call ON HIS OWN a special
election, with Venezuelan-printed ballots, contrary to the Honduran
constitution.
He was impeached, convicted and removed from office.
Matt
>>>> Ramon F Herrera wrote:
>>>>> -Ramon (from Barquisimeto, Venezuela)
>>>> Curious ... were you born in Venezuela, if you don't mind answering?
>>> Funny that you ask me whether I mind answering. I doubt that many
>>> Usenet participants have gone to the lengths I have. Right off the top
>>> of my head, I recall posting:
>>> - The Library of Congress reference number of a Venezuelan
>>> genealogical volume where I am mentioned.
>>> - A DNA NatGeo study about the origins of the Herrera family.
>>> - My Venezuelan Cedula (ID) number and the page of the Electoral
>>> office.
>>> (Cedula V-4193047,http://www.cne.gob.ve). You may look me up
>>> there.
>>> - A Google maps image of the home I was born.
>>> and all kinds of stuff like that.
>> Ha ha, okay, then I guess you don't mind :-) ... I only remember you
>> from COLA.
>>
>>> Anywho.. Back to your question, Matt:
>>> I happen to be sitting in Barquisimeto, Venezuela, about 100 Kms. from
>>> the town I was born, Carora in Lara State.
>>> -Ramon
>> Your English is great, but I think your use of 'anywho' is nonstandard.
>>
>
> > I think it means 'anyone', whereas its homophone 'anyhoo' has the
> > meaning you intended.
>
> Thanks for the tip. Matt. I always wondered where the heck that word
> came from.
>
> Gracias,
>
> -Ramon
>
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Anyhoo
>
De nada. I'm glad I could help you with standard vs. non-standard
slang. :-)
Jeffrey Turner
> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
>
>>> In a LAWFUL and OPEN vote. Even Zeleya's OWN party denounce what
>>> he is trying to do.
>
>> Ah, The Party. Yes, the good citizen must follow the dictates of The
>> Party. But the party is not the ultimate repository of power in a
>> democracy.
>
> Of course, butg the point is that other than a FEW people - ALL of
> the legitimate insttutions of Hunduras opposed the shit Zelaya was
> trying to do.
Well then, if the institutions were representing the will of the people
then the plebiscite would have shown that and the issue would have been
settled.
>>> The Supreme Court found his actions unconstitutional,
>
>> But the people retain the right to change the constitution despite the
>> opinion of the supreme court.
>
> Yes in a PRESCRIBED LEGAL WAY as spelled out BY the Constitution, NOT
> thw ay Zelaya was gtrying to do it. He LOST in the courts, he LOST in
> the legislature and what YOU argue for is ONE MAN RULE.
>
>>> the Honduran Legislature did, and the Army refused his orders as
>
>> The legislature is subordinate to the people. And the army is never the
>> final authority in a democracy.
>
> The legislature and the military and the Supreme Court are
> institutions. YOU advocate ONE MAN RULE = DICTATORSHIP!
Your hyperventilating misrepresentations are hilarious, but please don't
throw an embolism.
>>> unconstitutional. Jeffy there are ALWAYS militant minority groups in
>>> every country. A country cannot be a democracy under mob rule, under
>>> the tyranny of the minority.
>
>> You support the minority. You refuse to allow the majority to have
>> its say.
>
> Not at all. There IS a Constutional process. Zeleya wanted to rule by
> DECREE inbventing his own process with a flawed and dishonest election.
> And WITHOUT DEBATE.
What is the process for amending the whole constitution?
>>>>>>>>> It is extremely apparent that you and I share vastly
>>>>>>>>> different ideas of a democracy. In MY view the RULE OF LAW is
>>>>>>>>> what makes it a democracy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That includes the legislature and judiciary.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And includes coups?
>>>
>>>>> They had one in Italy didn't they with Mousolini?
>>>
>>>> He was a right winger too.
>>>
>>> But his actions in Italy MIRROR those of Zelaya.
>
>> Did he get elected to a limited term for all his years in power? A
>> dictator isn't a dictator if he keeps getting elected.
>
> Under Honduran LAW (Constitution) the President cannot run for
> reelection much less be President for LIFE. For damn good reasons the
> Constitution LIMITS the term to ONE. Zelaya wants to be PRESIDENT FOR
> LIFE - EL SUPREMO!
As you have no evidence, all your hyperventilating isn't worth the
electrons it's printer on.
>>>>>>>>> Your position MIGHT have some merit to it, EXCEPT the FACTS
>>>>>>>>> that the Honduran Congress and Honduran Supreme Court found
>>>>>>>>> Zelaya's actions unlawful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And the OAS and other international bodies have found the coup
>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>> illegal.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Conside the leftisis who led the pack.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The right orchestrated an illegal coup.
>>>>>
>>>>> The "right" as YOU define it. Anybody who opposed Zelaya's
>>>>> attempt to become president for life.
>>>
>>>> I love how winning a second term is to become president for life. And
>>>> that's only an assumption, as the plebiscite was only to determine if
>>>> there would be a ballot for changing the constitution.
>>>
>>> There is a Constitutioanl process Jeff. WHY couldn't he follow it?
>
>> There isn't a constitutional process, according to the supreme court.
>> The people have been forbidden from changing their own rules, and that
>> violates the principles of democracy. Or outline the process for
>> changing the whole constitution here
>
> That's not true. There IS a process for amending the Constitution. It
> does not allow for QUICKIE votes with NO informed debate. YOU keep
> harping that Zeleya was ELECTED - weren't the legislators elected too?
> It wasn't like the l;egislature's vote was close. It was damn near
> UNANIMOUS. Tell us WHY is Zelaya's election TRUMP over all the other
> elected officials?
What is the process, and how is it started?
Jeffrey Turner
There was no process at all in Honduras, so they were within their
rights to improvise one.
Jeffrey Turner
>
> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
> news:naGdnShdhPdU9c_X...@posted.localnet...
>
>>>> George W. Bush as he invaded two countries in the name of seeking
>>>> peace?
>
>>> Iraq was one, what is the other?
>
>> You've forgotten Afghanistan already?
>
> Don't you recall that the war in Afghanistan had something to do with
> the attack on the U.S. on 9-11-01 launched FROM Afghanistan? Seeking
> peace? Seeking to end a war THEY started.
> (Taliban)
Sixteen Saudis with Saudi money? The US didn't even have enough
evidence to start extradition.
Most of the people in Honduras must want a plebiscite because the right
wing is trying so hard to stop it. I'm sure the right wing supports
death squads all over the world, but we've been discussing Latin
America.
Jeffrey Turner
> Ramon F Herrera wrote:
>> On Jul 6, 1:30 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>> krp wrote:
>>>> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> So in YOUR WORLD Cuba IS a good democracy?
>>>>> Bolivia, Cuba and Nicaragua are democracies. You are a fascist.
>>>> So you believe Cuba IS a democracy? Please explain.
>>
>> > I meant to type Bolivia, Venezuela and Nicaragua.
>>
>> Good grief! I am torn about the following. I am not sure what is more
>> frustrating and comical:
>>
>> - A typical gringo who is completely clueless about Latin America.
>>
>> - Some "half baked" gringo like Jeff Turner, who knows enough to say
>> the most incredible stupidities.
>>
>> Should Jeff travel to one of the mentioned countries, his love affair
>> with the Latin America left will soon cease to exist. I'll give him a
>> week, tops.
>>
>> The typical pinko (or not) ignoramus gringo has this simplistic
>> parallelism:
>>
>> The right parties in Venezuela (or Honduras, etc.) are like the GOP
>> while the left parties are like the Democrats. Therefore, I should
>> support the commies in those countries.
>>
>> Such naive concept shows great political myopia.
>
> english-articulate people claiming to be Hondurans or at least living in
> Honduras. Most of them are arguing very effectively to preserve the
> Constitution. I don't suspect much that they are all fakes.
That's nice. As soon as you can show where the Honduran constitution
says that it is a country of, by and for the English literate with
internet access, I'll concede the argument.
Matt
That was not an argument. It was an observation.
I don't suppose you would look at any constitution anyway.
krp
>>>> In a LAWFUL and OPEN vote. Even Zeleya's OWN party denounce what he
>>>> is trying to do.
>>
>>> Ah, The Party. Yes, the good citizen must follow the dictates of The
>>> Party. But the party is not the ultimate repository of power in a
>>> democracy.
>>
>> Of course, butg the point is that other than a FEW people - ALL of the
>> legitimate insttutions of Hunduras opposed the shit Zelaya was trying to
>> do.
> Well then, if the institutions were representing the will of the people
> then the plebiscite would have shown that and the issue would have been
> settled.
Hopw do you KNOW the "WILL OF THE PEOPLE?" Because EL SUPREMO said so?
Youj make these grandiose conclusory claims with NO evidnce to back it up.
IF you had asn honest bone in your body you'd admit that the ANTI-Zeleya
demonstrations are 10 times the size of the PRO-Zelaya demonstrations. ALL
of which begs the REAL QUESTION. That is the RULE OF LAW. The Honduran
Constitution spells how the manner in which the Constitution can be changed
to guard against FRAUD, just as the American Consitution does.
>>>> The Supreme Court found his actions unconstitutional,
>>> But the people retain the right to change the constitution despite the
>>> opinion of the supreme court.
>> Yes in a PRESCRIBED LEGAL WAY as spelled out BY the Constitution, NOT
>> thw ay Zelaya was gtrying to do it. He LOST in the courts, he LOST in the
>> legislature and what YOU argue for is ONE MAN RULE.
>>>> the Honduran Legislature did, and the Army refused his orders as
>>> The legislature is subordinate to the people. And the army is never the
>>> final authority in a democracy.
>> The legislature and the military and the Supreme Court are
>> institutions. YOU advocate ONE MAN RULE = DICTATORSHIP!
> Your hyperventilating misrepresentations are hilarious, but please don't
> throw an embolism.
I am presenting FACT - you are the one arguing emotional bullshit.
>>>> unconstitutional. Jeffy there are ALWAYS militant minority groups in
>>>> every country. A country cannot be a democracy under mob rule, under
>>>> the tyranny of the minority.
>>
>>> You support the minority. You refuse to allow the majority to have its
>>> say.
>>
>> Not at all. There IS a Constutional process. Zeleya wanted to rule by
>> DECREE inbventing his own process with a flawed and dishonest election.
>> And WITHOUT DEBATE.
> What is the process for amending the whole constitution?
It has been posted rpeatedly. Ley's not have your game of ignorance. I
can't help if you refuse to read it.
>>>>>>>>>> It is extremely apparent that you and I share vastly different
>>>>>>>>>> ideas of a democracy. In MY view the RULE OF LAW is what makes it
>>>>>>>>>> a democracy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, right.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That includes the legislature and judiciary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And includes coups?
>>>>
>>>>>> They had one in Italy didn't they with Mousolini?
>>>>
>>>>> He was a right winger too.
>>>>
>>>> But his actions in Italy MIRROR those of Zelaya.
>>
>>> Did he get elected to a limited term for all his years in power? A
>>> dictator isn't a dictator if he keeps getting elected.
>> Under Honduran LAW (Constitution) the President cannot run for
>> reelection much less be President for LIFE. For damn good reasons the
>> Constitution LIMITS the term to ONE. Zelaya wants to be PRESIDENT FOR
>> LIFE - EL SUPREMO!
> As you have no evidence, all your hyperventilating isn't worth the
> electrons it's printer on.
Sure I do, the Honduran Constitution which has been posted here
repeatedly. Like a little boy you cover your eyes and put your fingers in
your ears and humm loudly!
>>>>>>>>>> Your position MIGHT have some merit to it, EXCEPT the FACTS that
>>>>>>>>>> the Honduran Congress and Honduran Supreme Court found Zelaya's
>>>>>>>>>> actions unlawful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And the OAS and other international bodies have found the coup to
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> illegal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Conside the leftisis who led the pack.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The right orchestrated an illegal coup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The "right" as YOU define it. Anybody who opposed Zelaya's attempt
>>>>>> to become president for life.
>>>>
>>>>> I love how winning a second term is to become president for life. And
>>>>> that's only an assumption, as the plebiscite was only to determine if
>>>>> there would be a ballot for changing the constitution.
>>>>
>>>> There is a Constitutioanl process Jeff. WHY couldn't he follow it?
>>
>>> There isn't a constitutional process, according to the supreme court.
>>> The people have been forbidden from changing their own rules, and that
>>> violates the principles of democracy. Or outline the process for
>>> changing the whole constitution here
>>
>> That's not true. There IS a process for amending the Constitution. It
>> does not allow for QUICKIE votes with NO informed debate. YOU keep
>> harping that Zeleya was ELECTED - weren't the legislators elected too? It
>> wasn't like the legislature's vote was close. It was damn near UNANIMOUS.
>> Tell us WHY is Zelaya's election TRUMP over all the other elected
>> officials?
> What is the process, and how is it started?
It begins in the legislature, Jeffy BABY! It requires a super-majority
vote. READ you frigging IDIOT!
krp
YOU are a LIAR Jeff. The Honduran Constitution has been posted by Bill and
OTHERS dozens of times. YOU behave like a child, covering your eyes and
putting fingers in your ears and loudly humming so you can say you never saw
it. Don't make US live with your TOTAL IGNORANCE. Read-up and get back to
us when you are an adult.
krp
>>
>>>>> George W. Bush as he invaded two countries in the name of seeking
>>>>> peace?
>>
>>>> Iraq was one, what is the other?
>>
>>> You've forgotten Afghanistan already?
>>
>> Don't you recall that the war in Afghanistan had something to do with
>> the attack on the U.S. on 9-11-01 launched FROM Afghanistan? Seeking
>> peace? Seeking to end a war THEY started.
>> (Taliban)
> Sixteen Saudis with Saudi money? The US didn't even have enough
> evidence to start extradition.
It was an ACT OF WAR not merely a criminal act. And it was PLANNED in
Afghanistan NOT Saudi Arabia. You fail to mention the other nationalities
involved. WHY?
You are full of SHIT! Why do ALL the coverages SHOW conclusively that
the Anti-Zelaya demonstrations in Honduras are 10 times those of the
Pro-Zelaya demonstrations? How come the legislature by an almost unanimous
vote went against Zelaya not just once but THREE TIMES, the last being
impeachment? Because EVERYONE *in* Honduras supports Zeleya? The Honduran
Supreme Court found his actions to be criminal. The military refuse his
ILLEGAL orders. Even the man's own party disavows him. So where the fukkkk
is this GREAT groundswell of support for him? Venezuela, Nicaragua, and
Cuba. WOW! Now THAT is a ringing endorsement of his DEMOCRATIC bent. We can
IGNORE the FACTS that this is all about ILLEGALLY extending his term as EL
SUPREMO!
krp
So Jeff - have you finally submitted to the fact that Cuba is NOT a
democracy? That it is NOT better off than it was under its previous
dictator?
Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )
So the executive can "improvise" against the express rulings of the
supreme court of a country, against the will of the legislature?
Even without reading Honduran law, I think that's an error. Have
you read Honduran law? Can you cite that there is no way to amend
the Honduran constitution?
Docky Wocky
Hondouran Constitution, but so few folks who care a hoot about our own
Constitution?
When do you think Obama will come clean on his birth details?
Democrats basically ignore the Constitution and have gotten away with it
because nobody has seriously challenged them. Now, that will be changing and
the ticket sales for Havana will be going through the roof.
krp
"Bill Bonde { 'by a commodius vicus of recirculation' )"
news:4A5379FA...@yahoo.co.uk...
This clown believes that in the US we should have a plebiscite vote to
replace the Constitution instead of the process spelled out in it. BUT the
ignoramus doesn't even know what it says. I think he's in Junior High
School.