High school teacher suspended for practicing a pagan religion
John Crawford
Updated 7:48 AM ET January 12, 2000
http://news.excite.com/news/r/000112/07/odd-pagan
LAURINBURG, N.C. (Reuters) - A North Carolina high school teacher suspended
after telling administrators she practices a pagan religion associated with
witchcraft said on Tuesday she would fight to get her job back.
Shari Eicher, an 11th-grade English teacher at Scotland High School in
Laurinburg, North Carolina, about 85 miles (135 km) southeast of Charlotte,
said she was escorted off campus by school officials and suspended
indefinitely with pay on Monday because of her religious beliefs.
Eicher and her husband, Richard, are practicing Wiccans, a pagan religion
whose adherents worship nature and focus on positive energy. Although the
religion is associated with witchcraft, Wiccans say the connection is
misunderstood and the faith has nothing to do with devil worship.
"I do my job the way it is supposed to be done," Eicher said. "My students
learn what they're supposed to learn. What I do in my private time and how I
worship my concept of deity are none of their business."
Eicher said she has contacted the North Carolina Education Association for
legal help in appealing her suspension.
Scotland County Schools Superintendent Shirley Prince said an investigation
was under way, but declined further comment.
Eicher said she did not discuss Wicca with students, and disclosed her
religious beliefs to administrators after a reporter asked her about an
Internet Web site maintained by her husband about a local Wicca group
(http://www.witchvox.com).
Eicher said she did not keep her beliefs a secret from administrators at
Scotland High School, where she has taught for three years. She said she was
told it would not be a problem as long as her beliefs did not interfere with
her teaching.
Eicher and her husband said they were ordained Wicca ministers and had been
Wiccans for 16 months.
They said rumors about their beliefs surfaced in their hometown of Wagram,
about 10 miles (15 km) north of Laurinburg in southeastern North Carolina.
On his Web site, Richard Eicher said he also planned to file a lawsuit over
his dismissal from a local company because of his religious beliefs.
aladdinsane
this gross violation of her right to practice any religion she wishes on her own time.
j
>Wiccan Fights Suspension From School
>Updated 7:48 AM ET January 12, 2000
>http://news.excite.com/news/r/000112/07/odd-pagan
>LAURINBURG, N.C. (Reuters) - A North Carolina high school teacher suspended
>after telling administrators she practices a pagan religion associated with
>witchcraft said on Tuesday she would fight to get her job back.
>Shari Eicher, an 11th-grade English teacher at Scotland High School in
>Laurinburg, North Carolina, about 85 miles (135 km) southeast of Charlotte,
>said she was escorted off campus by school officials and suspended
>indefinitely with pay on Monday because of her religious beliefs.
First the "minority" religions, then the christians ...
Don't doubt it for a moment.
As differerent as Wiccans and Christians may be, in this
United States they DO have issues in common - tolerance
being the most important. If it's OK to screw a person
for holding a "minority" religion then it's OK to
screw ANY person for having ANY religion.
-j
Gregory Gadow
> Wiccan Fights Suspension From School
>
> Updated 7:48 AM ET January 12, 2000
>
> http://news.excite.com/news/r/000112/07/odd-pagan
> LAURINBURG, N.C. (Reuters) - A North Carolina high school teacher suspended
> after telling administrators she practices a pagan religion associated with
> witchcraft said on Tuesday she would fight to get her job back.
> Shari Eicher, an 11th-grade English teacher at Scotland High School in
> Laurinburg, North Carolina, about 85 miles (135 km) southeast of Charlotte,
> said she was escorted off campus by school officials and suspended
> indefinitely with pay on Monday because of her religious beliefs.
I have little doubt that Pat Robertson and others of his ilk are rejoicing that
such "heathens" are not in the schools "corrupting" their children. Now, of
course if the teacher had been a Christian and therefor removed from her
teaching position, you can bet that all Hell would be breaking loose.
Religious bigotry is religious bigotry, regardless of the religion.
--
Gregory Gadow
E-mail: tech...@serv.net
American Liberal Party: http://www.americanliberal.org
I am a resident of Washington State. Any commerical
e-mail sent with false or misleading headers is in
violation of state law and subjectto a $500 penalty.
I WILL FILE CHARGES!
Che'Gu Maru
America, but that Heraclitus was right when he wrote, "Bigotry is the sacred
disease."
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> John Crawford wrote:
>
> > Wiccan Fights Suspension From School
> >
> >
> > http://news.excite.com/news/r/000112/07/odd-pagan
> > LAURINBURG, N.C. (Reuters) - A North Carolina high school teacher suspended
> > after telling administrators she practices a pagan religion associated with
> > witchcraft said on Tuesday she would fight to get her job back.
> > Shari Eicher, an 11th-grade English teacher at Scotland High School in
> > Laurinburg, North Carolina, about 85 miles (135 km) southeast of Charlotte,
> > said she was escorted off campus by school officials and suspended
> > indefinitely with pay on Monday because of her religious beliefs.
>
> I have little doubt that Pat Robertson and others of his ilk are rejoicing that
> such "heathens" are not in the schools "corrupting" their children. Now, of
> course if the teacher had been a Christian and therefor removed from her
> teaching position, you can bet that all Hell would be breaking loose.
Of course, where were you when Christians and Jews were being harassed
for prayer in school, etc?
HYPOCRITE!!!!
>
> Religious bigotry is religious bigotry, regardless of the religion.
> --
> Gregory Gadow
> E-mail: tech...@serv.net
> American Liberal Party: http://www.americanliberal.org
>
> I am a resident of Washington State. Any commerical
> e-mail sent with false or misleading headers is in
> violation of state law and subjectto a $500 penalty.
> I WILL FILE CHARGES!
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of Jimmy Baker's harangues against
adultery while secretly committing adultery with Jessica Hawn.
Gregory Gadow
> Gregory Gadow wrote:
> >
> > John Crawford wrote:
> >
> > > Wiccan Fights Suspension From School
> > >
> > > Updated 7:48 AM ET January 12, 2000
> > >
> > > http://news.excite.com/news/r/000112/07/odd-pagan
> > > LAURINBURG, N.C. (Reuters) - A North Carolina high school teacher suspended
> > > after telling administrators she practices a pagan religion associated with
> > > witchcraft said on Tuesday she would fight to get her job back.
> > > Shari Eicher, an 11th-grade English teacher at Scotland High School in
> > > Laurinburg, North Carolina, about 85 miles (135 km) southeast of Charlotte,
> > > said she was escorted off campus by school officials and suspended
> > > indefinitely with pay on Monday because of her religious beliefs.
> >
> > I have little doubt that Pat Robertson and others of his ilk are rejoicing that
> > such "heathens" are not in the schools "corrupting" their children. Now, of
> > course if the teacher had been a Christian and therefor removed from her
> > teaching position, you can bet that all Hell would be breaking loose.
>
> Of course, where were you when Christians and Jews were being harassed
> for prayer in school, etc?
>
> HYPOCRITE!!!!
And why do you claim I have not stood up against religious
harassment of any kind? I
have, on more than one occasion; my step-father and his son
are Jewish, and I have
worked closely with my parents to get my brother's religious
rights recognized in a
public school in a very conservative, "christian" part of
California. You are the one
committing a sin, here... the sin of unsubstantiated charges
being leveled against
your neighbor.
I agree that religious clubs should be granted the same
rights and privileges as any
other club. However, I just as strongly believe that public
schools have absolutely
no right to push any religious beliefs whatsoever. If the
teach in question above was
teaching her religion in her class, then she deserved to be
fired, no different than
if she where Christian and doing the same thing. But if she
were fired -- as seems to
be the case -- merely because she practiced a different
religion, then she was
wrongfully fired, no different than if she were Christian
and doing the same thing.
Gregory Gadow
Gregory Gadow
> Religion sucks
> Teachers jobs (theoretically) should be to teach OBJECTIVE facts to EDUCATE. It would not be harsh to fire any teacher irrational enough to practice religion.
Agreed. Except that she was NOT teaching her religion; she
merely WAS her religion. And firing for that is not only
wrong, it is against the law.
john q public
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <aku...@alt.net> wrote in message news:3884A14F...@alt.net...
> Gregory Gadow wrote:
> >
> > John Crawford wrote:
> >
> > > Wiccan Fights Suspension From School
> > >
> > > Updated 7:48 AM ET January 12, 2000
> > >
> > > http://news.excite.com/news/r/000112/07/odd-pagan
> > > LAURINBURG, N.C. (Reuters) - A North Carolina high school teacher suspended
> > > after telling administrators she practices a pagan religion associated with
> > > witchcraft said on Tuesday she would fight to get her job back.
> > > Shari Eicher, an 11th-grade English teacher at Scotland High School in
> > > Laurinburg, North Carolina, about 85 miles (135 km) southeast of Charlotte,
> > > said she was escorted off campus by school officials and suspended
> > > indefinitely with pay on Monday because of her religious beliefs.
> >
> > I have little doubt that Pat Robertson and others of his ilk are rejoicing that
> > such "heathens" are not in the schools "corrupting" their children. Now, of
> > course if the teacher had been a Christian and therefor removed from her
> > teaching position, you can bet that all Hell would be breaking loose.
>
> Of course, where were you when Christians and Jews were being harassed
> for prayer in school, etc?
>
> HYPOCRITE!!!!
Jesus H She wasn't forcing her religion down their throats, like the prayer at gun point
crowd!
>
>
> >
> > Religious bigotry is religious bigotry, regardless of the religion.
> > --
> > Gregory Gadow
> > E-mail: tech...@serv.net
> > American Liberal Party: http://www.americanliberal.org
> >
> > I am a resident of Washington State. Any commerical
> > e-mail sent with false or misleading headers is in
> > violation of state law and subjectto a $500 penalty.
> > I WILL FILE CHARGES!
>
>
Mathew
John DeLaGarza
It is of its own unique sort. Although I'm Catholic and still think satan is
a gay homosexual, but we have more important things to worry about that what
someone believes to worship.
John DeLaGarza
vonquark
> Gregory Gadow wrote:
> >
> > John Crawford wrote:
> >
> > > Wiccan Fights Suspension From School
> > >
> > > Updated 7:48 AM ET January 12, 2000
> > >
> > > http://news.excite.com/news/r/000112/07/odd-pagan
> > > LAURINBURG, N.C. (Reuters) - A North Carolina high school teacher suspended
> > > after telling administrators she practices a pagan religion associated with
> > > witchcraft said on Tuesday she would fight to get her job back.
> > > Shari Eicher, an 11th-grade English teacher at Scotland High School in
> > > Laurinburg, North Carolina, about 85 miles (135 km) southeast of Charlotte,
> > > said she was escorted off campus by school officials and suspended
> > > indefinitely with pay on Monday because of her religious beliefs.
> >
Why do I suspect there is more to the story than is told?
Frankly, I suspect she was indoctrinating her students
into the beliefs of paganism. A definite NO! NO!
Were it done by a Christian, they also would be escorted off
campus too.
I am not privy to all the facts so I will not judge her but the
story sounds suspicious.
As Beethoven used to say:
"I'll be Bach."
VonQuark
Che'Gu Maru
But the place for the teaching of religious truths is in the church, synogogue, mosque, and so on, not in the public schools.
The only time someone's religion should be a matter of his teaching qualifications is when he permits his own personal beliefs to intrude upon his teaching. Your
unqualified comment is as unfair as when a few years ago a college to dismissed a biology professor because he personally did not believe in evolutionary theory.
They couldn't show a single instance of where his personal beliefs were taught in his classroon, or where he did not teach evolutionary theory as the theory
currently supported by the best set of empirical evidence. But because he published an article in which he expressed the belief that the Bible is correct and
evolutionary theory is wrong, he was supposedly fired.
Now personally I do not subscribe the Christian religion, nor to its concept of deity. Moreover, I find attempts by conservative Christians to promote their
theology in the guise of "Creationism" ludicrous. However, be that as it may, in the instance I've cited, the firing was unfair.
Again, what a teacher believes is his own business. The only thing to consider is what he teaches in the classroom.
That is the reason I am issuing a formal protest to the school system which my own daughter attends. Her English teacher told the class that Martin Luther King
was not assassinated by Ray, but rather as the result of an FBI plot. Now, her teacher (who happens to be African-American) is entitled to believe whatever she
wants to; she is NOT, however, entitled to teach those beliefs as fact, especially when they fly in the face of established evidence.
'Nuff said.
Gregory Gadow
> Paganism is not religion
And that is a lie. How are you defining religion?
mahab...@my-deja.com
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <aku...@alt.net> wrote:
> Gregory Gadow wrote:
> >
> > John Crawford wrote:
> >
> > > Wiccan Fights Suspension From School
> > >
> > > Updated 7:48 AM ET January 12, 2000
> > >
> > > http://news.excite.com/news/r/000112/07/odd-pagan
> > > LAURINBURG, N.C. (Reuters) - A North Carolina high school teacher suspended
> > > after telling administrators she practices a pagan religion associated with
> > > witchcraft said on Tuesday she would fight to get her job back.
> > > Shari Eicher, an 11th-grade English teacher at Scotland High School in
> > > Laurinburg, North Carolina, about 85 miles (135 km) southeast of Charlotte,
> > > said she was escorted off campus by school officials and suspended
> > > indefinitely with pay on Monday because of her religious beliefs.
> >
> > such "heathens" are not in the schools "corrupting" their children. Now, of
> > course if the teacher had been a Christian and therefor removed from her
> > teaching position, you can bet that all Hell would be breaking loose.
>
> Of course, where were you when Christians and Jews were being harassed
> for prayer in school, etc?
>
> HYPOCRITE!!!!
This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for prayer in
school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
people. And, actually, I don't remember that Jews in U.S. public schools
ever tried to force their prayers on other people, just Christians.
B.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
mahab...@my-deja.com
100...@saba.kuentos.guam.net>,
Why not?
>
> On 18 Jan 2000, Chris Meyer wrote:
>
> > Religion sucks
> >
> > Teachers jobs (theoretically) should be to teach OBJECTIVE facts to
> > EDUCATE. It would not be harsh to fire any teacher irrational enough
> > to practice religion.
> >
> >
>
Mimi Weasel
That would be because we Jews who want our children to pray in school
send our kids to Yeshiva (Jewish school) and don't ask the government to
pay for it or we send them to public school and tell them not to pray
there.
Mimi Weasel
Gregory Gadow
> That would be because we Jews who want our children to pray in school
> send our kids to Yeshiva (Jewish school) and don't ask the government to
> pay for it or we send them to public school and tell them not to pray
> there.
Not to sound like a flaming liberal (rolling my eyes), but why should a child, Jewish or otherwise, NOT pray in school? The issue is not addressing
God or other Being; the issue is doing so in a way that infringes on the beliefs and practices of others. As the saying goes, "As long as there are
tests, there will be prayer in school" :-) That is a far, far cry from using the school's PA system for a common prayer.
Case in point: my best friend in high school, Jewish, also attended a Hebrew school. As an exercise, he composed a Hebrew prayer in the traditional
style that went, if memory served, "Blessed are you, Almighty God, who has hallowed our lives, gifted us with intellect, and who guides us throught
the darkness of a late night cram session to the dawning light of an 'A'." I heard him use it more than once.
Che'Gu Maru
system, I saw many teachers and students reading Bibles to themselves during their off
periods. There was nothing preventing students from praying, even as a group, so long
as they did so during non-academic time and in a way which did not force their prayers
on others (meaning, they could go into a classroom, close the door, and pray all they
wanted. They could NOT meet in the halls and scream about non-believers going to hell
at the top of their lungs.)
mahab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for prayer in
> school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
> people. And, actually, I don't remember that Jews in U.S. public schools
> ever tried to force their prayers on other people, just Christians.
>
> B.
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> "Aaron R. Kulkis" <aku...@alt.net> wrote in message news:3884A14F...@alt.net...
> > Gregory Gadow wrote:
> > >
> > > John Crawford wrote:
> > >
> > > > Wiccan Fights Suspension From School
> > > >
> > > > Updated 7:48 AM ET January 12, 2000
> > > >
> > > > http://news.excite.com/news/r/000112/07/odd-pagan
> > > > LAURINBURG, N.C. (Reuters) - A North Carolina high school teacher suspended
> > > > after telling administrators she practices a pagan religion associated with
> > > > witchcraft said on Tuesday she would fight to get her job back.
> > > > Shari Eicher, an 11th-grade English teacher at Scotland High School in
> > > > Laurinburg, North Carolina, about 85 miles (135 km) southeast of Charlotte,
> > > > said she was escorted off campus by school officials and suspended
> > > > indefinitely with pay on Monday because of her religious beliefs.
> > >
> > > I have little doubt that Pat Robertson and others of his ilk are rejoicing that
> > > such "heathens" are not in the schools "corrupting" their children. Now, of
> > > course if the teacher had been a Christian and therefor removed from her
> > > teaching position, you can bet that all Hell would be breaking loose.
> >
> > for prayer in school, etc?
> >
> > HYPOCRITE!!!!
>
> at gun point crowd!
Same can be said for a lot of Christians and Jews who have been harassed
for merely leaving a bible on their desk.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Religious bigotry is religious bigotry, regardless of the religion.
> > > --
> > > Gregory Gadow
> > > E-mail: tech...@serv.net
> > > American Liberal Party: http://www.americanliberal.org
> > >
> > > I am a resident of Washington State. Any commerical
> > > e-mail sent with false or misleading headers is in
> > > violation of state law and subjectto a $500 penalty.
> > > I WILL FILE CHARGES!
> >
> >
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> Paganism is not religion
the readers of alt.paganism who PRACTICE paganism would disagree.
>
> On 18 Jan 2000, Chris Meyer wrote:
>
> > Religion sucks
> >
> > Teachers jobs (theoretically) should be to teach OBJECTIVE facts to
> > EDUCATE. It would not be harsh to fire any teacher irrational enough
> > to practice religion.
> >
> >
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> In article <3884A14F...@alt.net>,
> "Aaron R. Kulkis" <aku...@alt.net> wrote:
> > Gregory Gadow wrote:
> > >
> > > John Crawford wrote:
> > >
> > > > Wiccan Fights Suspension From School
> > > >
> > > > Updated 7:48 AM ET January 12, 2000
> > > >
> > > > http://news.excite.com/news/r/000112/07/odd-pagan
> > > > LAURINBURG, N.C. (Reuters) - A North Carolina high school teacher suspended
> > > > after telling administrators she practices a pagan religion associated with
> > > > witchcraft said on Tuesday she would fight to get her job back.
> > > > Shari Eicher, an 11th-grade English teacher at Scotland High School in
> > > > Laurinburg, North Carolina, about 85 miles (135 km) southeast of Charlotte,
> > > > said she was escorted off campus by school officials and suspended
> > > > indefinitely with pay on Monday because of her religious beliefs.
> > >
> > > I have little doubt that Pat Robertson and others of his ilk are rejoicing that
> > > such "heathens" are not in the schools "corrupting" their children. Now, of
> > > course if the teacher had been a Christian and therefor removed from her
> > > teaching position, you can bet that all Hell would be breaking loose.
> >
> > Of course, where were you when Christians and Jews were being harassed
> > for prayer in school, etc?
> >
> > HYPOCRITE!!!!
>
> school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
LIAR.
They have been harassed for merely HAVING A BIBLE IN THEIR POSESSION
while at school or at work.
> people. And, actually, I don't remember that Jews in U.S. public schools
> ever tried to force their prayers on other people, just Christians.
>
> B.
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> I just wanted to say I agree with you. During my nine years in the
> public school system, I saw many teachers and students reading Bibles
> to themselves during their off periods. There was nothing preventing
> students from praying, even as a group, so long as they did so during
> non-academic time and in a way which did not force their prayers on
> others (meaning, they could go into a classroom, close the door, and
> pray all they wanted. They could NOT meet in the halls and scream
> about non-believers going to hell at the top of their lungs.)
Other schools have not been nearly so tolerant.
Some schools have dismissed teachers and suspended students for merely
having a bible in their posession.
>
> mahab...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for prayer in
> > school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
Tecknomage
wrote:
> Paganism is not religion
>
Wrong. You have no right to define someone else's religion and no one
else has the right to define yours.
Paganism, in its many sects, *is* a religion to those who practice it.
Gregory Gadow
> Che'Gu Maru wrote:
> >
> > I just wanted to say I agree with you. During my nine years in the
> > public school system, I saw many teachers and students reading Bibles
> > to themselves during their off periods. There was nothing preventing
> > students from praying, even as a group, so long as they did so during
> > non-academic time and in a way which did not force their prayers on
> > others (meaning, they could go into a classroom, close the door, and
> > pray all they wanted. They could NOT meet in the halls and scream
> > about non-believers going to hell at the top of their lungs.)
>
> Other schools have not been nearly so tolerant.
>
> Some schools have dismissed teachers and suspended students for merely
> having a bible in their posession.
Yes, it has happened, unfortunately. And that is is wrong.
tony G as Frank Cannon
<aku...@alt.net> wrote:
>mahab...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> In article <3884A14F...@alt.net>,
>> "Aaron R. Kulkis" <aku...@alt.net> wrote:
>> > Gregory Gadow wrote:
>> > >
>> > > John Crawford wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Wiccan Fights Suspension From School
>> > > >
>> > > > Updated 7:48 AM ET January 12, 2000
>> > > >
>> > > > http://news.excite.com/news/r/000112/07/odd-pagan
>> > > > LAURINBURG, N.C. (Reuters) - A North Carolina high school teacher suspended
>> > > > after telling administrators she practices a pagan religion associated with
>> > > > witchcraft said on Tuesday she would fight to get her job back.
>> > > > Shari Eicher, an 11th-grade English teacher at Scotland High School in
>> > > > Laurinburg, North Carolina, about 85 miles (135 km) southeast of Charlotte,
>> > > > said she was escorted off campus by school officials and suspended
>> > > > indefinitely with pay on Monday because of her religious beliefs.
>> > >
>> > > I have little doubt that Pat Robertson and others of his ilk are rejoicing that
>> > > such "heathens" are not in the schools "corrupting" their children. Now, of
>> > > course if the teacher had been a Christian and therefor removed from her
>> > > teaching position, you can bet that all Hell would be breaking loose.
>> >
>> > Of course, where were you when Christians and Jews were being harassed
>> > for prayer in school, etc?
>> >
>> > HYPOCRITE!!!!
>>
>> This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for prayer in
>> school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
>
>LIAR.
>
>They have been harassed for merely HAVING A BIBLE IN THEIR POSESSION
>while at school or at work.
Instead of screaming about it why don't you furnish us some proof. It
would help your case if you could find some instances where the case
wasn't ironed out in the end.
tony G as Frank Cannon
wrote:
>>>>>> Aaron R Kulkis writes:
>
> Aaron> Che'Gu Maru wrote:
> >>
> >> I just wanted to say I agree with you. During my nine years in the
> >> public school system, I saw many teachers and students reading Bibles
> >> to themselves during their off periods. There was nothing preventing
> >> students from praying, even as a group, so long as they did so during
> >> non-academic time and in a way which did not force their prayers on
> >> others (meaning, they could go into a classroom, close the door, and
> >> pray all they wanted. They could NOT meet in the halls and scream
> >> about non-believers going to hell at the top of their lungs.)
>
> Aaron> Other schools have not been nearly so tolerant.
>
> Aaron> Some schools have dismissed teachers and suspended students for merely
> Aaron> having a bible in their posession.
>
>Such schools are violating the law. Contact the ACLU,
>they will file a suit on behalf of those whose religious
>rights were violated.
The 700 club has these types of scare stories every once in awhile.
Often times before the commercial break Pat will talk about the "woman
who was persecuted for her beliefs in a public school, coming up".
After all the build up we will be treated to an expose about a woman
who was reading the bible to her class and she was told to stop. It
would seem that persecution is when you can't make a captive audience
listen to your mythology. I'm sure there are cases of people who were
reading there bible quietly and were bothered but I would guess they
were few and far between.
Amongst the christian right there are the professional victims who
make the circuit of the prosecuted.
Bill
>
> john q public wrote:
> >
> > Jesus H She wasn't forcing her religion down their throats, like the prayer
> > at gun point crowd!
>
> Same can be said for a lot of Christians and Jews who have been harassed
> for merely leaving a bible on their desk.
Did she have Pagan books on her desk?
Bill
>
> Other schools have not been nearly so tolerant.
>
And does anyone approve of such intolerance? (By the way, I've never
actually heard of a case where a student was actually disciplined for
merely having a bible in their possession. Have you?)
Bill
>
> mahab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for prayer in
> > school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
>
> LIAR.
>
> They have been harassed for merely HAVING A BIBLE IN THEIR POSESSION
> while at school or at work.
Okay, I'll plead ignorance here. Please educate me. Who has this
happened to, when did it happen, and at which school?
john q public
Aaron R. Kulkis <aku...@alt.net> wrote in message
news:3887300A...@alt.net...
> john q public wrote:
> >
> > "Aaron R. Kulkis" <aku...@alt.net> wrote in message
news:3884A14F...@alt.net...
prayer
> > at gun point crowd!
>
> Same can be said for a lot of Christians and Jews who have been harassed
> for merely leaving a bible on their desk.
Where? In a school? That's a no no. in the privacy of their own homes, I
agree!
>
>
>
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Religious bigotry is religious bigotry, regardless of the religion.
> > > > --
> > > > Gregory Gadow
> > > > E-mail: tech...@serv.net
> > > > American Liberal Party: http://www.americanliberal.org
> > > >
> > > > I am a resident of Washington State. Any commerical
> > > > e-mail sent with false or misleading headers is in
> > > > violation of state law and subjectto a $500 penalty.
> > > > I WILL FILE CHARGES!
> > >
> > >
john q public
Mimi Weasel <"MimiWeasel ain't"@home.com> wrote in message
news:388636B8...@home.com...
> mahabarbara wrote:
>
> > "Aaron R. Kulkis" <aku...@alt.net> wrote:
> > > Of course, where were you when Christians and Jews were being harassed
> > > for prayer in school, etc?
> > >
> > > HYPOCRITE!!!!
> >
school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
>schools ever tried to force their prayers on other people, just
>Christians.
>
> send our kids to Yeshiva (Jewish school) and don't ask the government to
> pay for it or we send them to public school and tell them not to pray
> there.
>
Damn, then I guess it's true, Jews are smarter than us!
john q public
Aaron R. Kulkis <aku...@alt.net> wrote in message
news:38873114...@alt.net...
> Che'Gu Maru wrote:
> >
> > I just wanted to say I agree with you. During my nine years in the
> > public school system, I saw many teachers and students reading Bibles
> > to themselves during their off periods. There was nothing preventing
> > students from praying, even as a group, so long as they did so during
> > non-academic time and in a way which did not force their prayers on
> > others (meaning, they could go into a classroom, close the door, and
> > pray all they wanted. They could NOT meet in the halls and scream
> > about non-believers going to hell at the top of their lungs.)
>
>
> Some schools have dismissed teachers and suspended students for merely
> having a bible in their posession.
In their posseion? Why do I think that there was a bit more going on than
that.
>
> >
> > mahab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for prayer
in
> > > school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
> > > people. And, actually, I don't remember that Jews in U.S. public
schools
> > > ever tried to force their prayers on other people, just Christians.
> > >
> > > B.
> > >
> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > Before you buy.
>
>
Mathew
On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Tecknomage wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:49:47 +1000, Mathew <m...@kuentos.guam.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Paganism is not religion
> >
>
> Wrong. You have no right to define someone else's religion and no one
> else has the right to define yours.
>
> Paganism, in its many sects, *is* a religion to those who practice it.
It is not religion in the sense of organized religion that is
There is a difference between religion and spiritual beliefs/sects as that
religion is more often a cultural characteristic of a group of
people,such as Protestantism in America coming from the large Anglo-Saxon
roots of Americans and based in faith more so than the science of paganism
William Jarrell
>
> >
> > Paganism, in its many sects, *is* a religion to those who practice it.
>
> It is not religion in the sense of organized religion that is
> There is a difference between religion and spiritual beliefs/sects as that
> religion is more often a cultural characteristic of a group of
> people,such as Protestantism in America coming from the large Anglo-Saxon
> roots of Americans and based in faith more so than the science of paganism
>
Folk beliefs like a belief in magic, astrology etc. may not
necessarily be organized religion, but they have religious aspects.
- William Jarrell
aladdinsane
with them. I've lived here in Orange County, CA all of my life. When I went to
elementary school, my fifth grade teacher was a Mormon. And she made a point of
telling us this. She wasn't punished.
Then, when I went to junior high in the late 60's early 70's, at lunchtime in the middle
of the lunch area there would be a group of Christians (this was during the so-called
"Jesus People" days), about 30 or 40, who would be reading Bible passages and
praying openly during lunch. Some of them would even get up and start proseletyzing
(sp?). Nobody was offended by that. It was part of their First Amendment right to do
so and part of my First Amendment right to tell them to shove it. They also handed out
Jesus comics at this public junior high. They were never punished. And this was during
the days of the Warren Court! What was ironic, though, was that these Christians were
also the biggest stoners on campus.
When I entered high school, there was a smaller group of maybe 15 people who would eat lunch out near the
science building who also used that period for Bible study
and prayer. Nobody said a word about it. We thought it was perfectly normal for them
to read the Bible while I read Huxley, Orwell, Tolkien, etc. Whatever turns you on. One
of my classmates in my American Literature class did a book report on "The Greatest
Story Ever Told," a well known Christian themed book. When we read Dickensen,
Taylor and other poets/writers with religious points of view, nobody cared, since the
discussion of the religious belief was integral to understanding those works. Same went
for reading Milton in my British Lit class.
The fact is that unless you were just really a vacant moron susceptible to being swayed
by anybody with a slick line of bullshit, nobody's beliefs are going to be changed one
iota by somebody else carrying a Bible or spouting verses.
The problem comes, however, when religous zealots feel that they are so special that
their beliefs should supercede everybody else's. For example, I was channel surfing one
night after coming home from work and saw Paul Crouch, who owns the Trinity
Broadcasting Network (and who looks like Ted Turner's long lost brother), railing
against Buddhists, almost repeating Farrakhan's anti-Jewish rants except he was
targeting Buddhists. And then you take this sort of mentality (Pat Robertson) and put
some political power behind it then you have something really scary. Then you set the
stage for our own little Iran or English Civil War.
The framers of the Constitution, which GOP ally Rev. Moon called "a satanic
document," deliberately designed the Constitution so that no one body would have
the power of the purse and the power of the gun for itself. They also separated religion
(Madison was a devout Anglican, but was always deeply suspicious of any attempts to
infuse religion into government) out from the purview of government. Thus, you have the
establishment clause of the Constitution.
Demagogues such as Robertson, Jay Sekulow, and the Rutherford Institute will
construct the most elaborate distortions so that they can play the victim game and claim
to be oppressed when Christianity is the dominant faith in the U.S. by far. Much like
Jesse Jackson, Sekulow and his ilk have spun their image as civil rights advocates,
but the fact is that both, in my opinion, are nothing more than legal and social
racketeers. It's not about righteousness, it's about fundraising and tv face time.
john q public wrote:
> Mimi Weasel <"MimiWeasel ain't"@home.com> wrote in message
> news:388636B8...@home.com...
> > mahabarbara wrote:
> >
> > > "Aaron R. Kulkis" <aku...@alt.net> wrote:
> > > > Of course, where were you when Christians and Jews were being harassed
> > > > for prayer in school, etc?
> > > >
> > > > HYPOCRITE!!!!
> > >
> > >This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for prayer >in
> school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
> > > people. And, actually, I don't remember that Jews in U.S. public
> >schools ever tried to force their prayers on other people, just
> >Christians.
> >
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> >
> > john q public wrote:
> > >
> > > at gun point crowd!
> >
> > Same can be said for a lot of Christians and Jews who have been harassed
> > for merely leaving a bible on their desk.
>
That's immaterial
Aaron R. Kulkis
> > > > for prayer in school, etc?
> > > >
> > > > HYPOCRITE!!!!
> > >
> prayer
> > > at gun point crowd!
> >
> > Same can be said for a lot of Christians and Jews who have been harassed
> > for merely leaving a bible on their desk.
>
> agree!
BZZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong answer.
1st Amendment
A: Freedom of Speech. You are allowed to have any legal(*) reading material
with you that you want at any time
(*) NON-legal would be: seditious material and/or "obscene" pornography, etc.
B: Freedom OF Religion. (Note that is not Freedom *FROM* religion...it
is freedom *OF* religion.
Go back to school, ya moron!
> >
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Religious bigotry is religious bigotry, regardless of the religion.
> > > > > --
> > > > > Gregory Gadow
> > > > > E-mail: tech...@serv.net
> > > > > American Liberal Party: http://www.americanliberal.org
> > > > >
> > > > > I am a resident of Washington State. Any commerical
> > > > > e-mail sent with false or misleading headers is in
> > > > > violation of state law and subjectto a $500 penalty.
> > > > > I WILL FILE CHARGES!
> > > >
> > > >
Aaron R. Kulkis
> >>
> >> I just wanted to say I agree with you. During my nine years in the
> >> public school system, I saw many teachers and students reading Bibles
> >> to themselves during their off periods. There was nothing preventing
> >> students from praying, even as a group, so long as they did so during
> >> non-academic time and in a way which did not force their prayers on
> >> others (meaning, they could go into a classroom, close the door, and
> >> pray all they wanted. They could NOT meet in the halls and scream
> >> about non-believers going to hell at the top of their lungs.)
>
>
> Aaron> Some schools have dismissed teachers and suspended students for merely
> Aaron> having a bible in their posession.
>
> Such schools are violating the law. Contact the ACLU,
> they will file a suit on behalf of those whose religious
> rights were violated.
THE ACLU instigated many of these suits, you MORON!
>
> --
> Andrew Hall
> (Now reading Usenet in alt.rush-limbaugh...)
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:40:48 GMT, <no-spam-...@world.std.com>
> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> Aaron R Kulkis writes:
> >
> > Aaron> Che'Gu Maru wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I just wanted to say I agree with you. During my nine years in the
> > >> public school system, I saw many teachers and students reading Bibles
> > >> to themselves during their off periods. There was nothing preventing
> > >> students from praying, even as a group, so long as they did so during
> > >> non-academic time and in a way which did not force their prayers on
> > >> others (meaning, they could go into a classroom, close the door, and
> > >> pray all they wanted. They could NOT meet in the halls and scream
> > >> about non-believers going to hell at the top of their lungs.)
> >
> > Aaron> Other schools have not been nearly so tolerant.
> >
> > Aaron> Some schools have dismissed teachers and suspended students for merely
> > Aaron> having a bible in their posession.
> >
> >Such schools are violating the law. Contact the ACLU,
> >they will file a suit on behalf of those whose religious
> >rights were violated.
>
The ones which I am aware of were reported in AP and/or UPI.
I've never watched "the 700 club" ever in my life.
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> >
> >
>
You see..the "anti-christians" have been trying to chase every little
bit of christian religous practice out of the schools...and foolishly
believed that they could continue to practice their OWN religions in
school.
Call it...POETIC JUSTICE.
> actually heard of a case where a student was actually disciplined for
> merely having a bible in their possession. Have you?)
You don't pay attention very much, do you?
Aaron R. Kulkis
> > Che'Gu Maru wrote:
> > >
> > > I just wanted to say I agree with you. During my nine years in the
> > > public school system, I saw many teachers and students reading Bibles
> > > to themselves during their off periods. There was nothing preventing
> > > students from praying, even as a group, so long as they did so during
> > > non-academic time and in a way which did not force their prayers on
> > > others (meaning, they could go into a classroom, close the door, and
> > > pray all they wanted. They could NOT meet in the halls and scream
> > > about non-believers going to hell at the top of their lungs.)
> >
> >
> > Some schools have dismissed teachers and suspended students for merely
> > having a bible in their posession.
>
> that.
I don't know...what are you imagining?
> >
> > >
> > > mahab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for prayer
> in
> > > > school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
> > > > people. And, actually, I don't remember that Jews in U.S. public
> schools
> > > > ever tried to force their prayers on other people, just Christians.
> > > >
> > > > B.
> > > >
> > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > > Before you buy.
> >
> >
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> <aku...@alt.net> wrote:
>
> >mahab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <3884A14F...@alt.net>,
> >> > Gregory Gadow wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > John Crawford wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Wiccan Fights Suspension From School
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Updated 7:48 AM ET January 12, 2000
> >> > > >
> >> > > > http://news.excite.com/news/r/000112/07/odd-pagan
> >> > > > LAURINBURG, N.C. (Reuters) - A North Carolina high school teacher suspended
> >> > > > after telling administrators she practices a pagan religion associated with
> >> > > > witchcraft said on Tuesday she would fight to get her job back.
> >> > > > Shari Eicher, an 11th-grade English teacher at Scotland High School in
> >> > > > Laurinburg, North Carolina, about 85 miles (135 km) southeast of Charlotte,
> >> > > > said she was escorted off campus by school officials and suspended
> >> > > > indefinitely with pay on Monday because of her religious beliefs.
> >> > >
> >> > > I have little doubt that Pat Robertson and others of his ilk are rejoicing that
> >> > > such "heathens" are not in the schools "corrupting" their children. Now, of
> >> > > course if the teacher had been a Christian and therefor removed from her
> >> > > teaching position, you can bet that all Hell would be breaking loose.
> >> >
> >> > Of course, where were you when Christians and Jews were being harassed
> >> > for prayer in school, etc?
> >> >
> >> > HYPOCRITE!!!!
> >>
> >> school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
> >
> >
> >They have been harassed for merely HAVING A BIBLE IN THEIR POSESSION
> >while at school or at work.
>
> would help your case if you could find some instances where the case
> wasn't ironed out in the end.
What...you want me to go mining into landfills to find newspaper references???
It's not my fault you haven't been paying attention. This stuff was in
the news quite frequently for several years.
AP
UPI
Reuters
What else do you want? Personal Gold-embossed announcements?
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> >
> > > This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for prayer in
> > > school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
> >
> > LIAR.
> >
> > They have been harassed for merely HAVING A BIBLE IN THEIR POSESSION
> > while at school or at work.
>
> happened to, when did it happen, and at which school?
It started in the early 80's. The number of cases reported in the
newspapers (UPI/AP/Reuters) are too numerous to mention.
(NO, I don't have references. You think I keep card catalogs of every
fact I ever read in my life???? If you do, you're a moron.)
Gregory Gadow
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Tecknomage wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:49:47 +1000, Mathew <m...@kuentos.guam.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Paganism is not religion
> > >
> >
> > Wrong. You have no right to define someone else's religion and no one
> > else has the right to define yours.
> >
> > Paganism, in its many sects, *is* a religion to those who practice it.
>
> It is not religion in the sense of organized religion that is
> There is a difference between religion and spiritual beliefs/sects as that
> religion is more often a cultural characteristic of a group of
> people,such as Protestantism in America coming from the large Anglo-Saxon
> roots of Americans and based in faith more so than the science of paganism
Patently false. No government agency WHATSOEVER -- and that includes public
school districts -- have the right to determine what is or is not a religion.
But to be honest, whether or not Wicca is a religion is irrelevant: the courts
have long held that any belief which holds the place of religion in a person
life is protected by the identical rights and protections that religious views
are. Thus, the seeming contradiction of an Atheist being protected by right to
religion, the fact that organizations such as the American Atheist Association
and the American Humanist Association can be classified as "religious
organizations" for tax purposes, and the fact that teaching atheism in public
schools is just as anathema (if you will excuse the expression) as teaching
Christianity.
Gregory Gadow
> Bill wrote:
> >
> > Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> > >
> > > mahab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > > This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for prayer in
> > > > school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
> > >
> > > LIAR.
> > >
> > > They have been harassed for merely HAVING A BIBLE IN THEIR POSESSION
> > > while at school or at work.
> >
> > Okay, I'll plead ignorance here. Please educate me. Who has this
> > happened to, when did it happen, and at which school?
>
> It started in the early 80's. The number of cases reported in the
> newspapers (UPI/AP/Reuters) are too numerous to mention.
And therefore you won't even mention one?
> (NO, I don't have references. You think I keep card catalogs of every
> fact I ever read in my life???? If you do, you're a moron.)
In other words, "I know it to be true and I don't have to prove it!" The argument
of a man who has no argument to back him up.
Adam Russell
have I heard anyone speak from a position of authority. I think that it is
one if and only if the followers believe it to be religious. Does anyone
know how they actually see it?
Bill
>
> john q public wrote:
> >
> > agree!
>
> BZZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong answer.
>
> 1st Amendment
> A: Freedom of Speech. You are allowed to have any legal(*) reading material
> with you that you want at any time
> (*) NON-legal would be: seditious material and/or "obscene" pornography, etc.
This is not necessarily true. Since the teacher is acting as an agent
of the state, he or she does not enjoy unlimited freedom of speech while
on the job. A math teacher, for instance, can be disciplined or even
fired for spending class time discussing old "Bonanza" episodes. I
don't think there can be much disagreement that one does not enjoy the
same 1st Amendment rights on the job that one enjoys in private life.
The question of whether a teacher can carry a bible into the classroom
and leave it on the desk depends, I think, on how it is being
displayed. I think a teacher could make such a point of displaying the
bible that it became a proselytising gesture, one inappropriate for a
government representative to make. On the other hand, I don't see any
problem with a teacher having a stack of books on his or her desk, with
one of them being a bible.
As far as students are concerned, they are allowed to carry bibles to
school. I've heard of a few cases where children got into trouble for
"simply carrying bibles", but in every instance, they were lying about
the circumstances. Lesson: do not believe everything you read.
> B: Freedom OF Religion. (Note that is not Freedom *FROM* religion...it
> is freedom *OF* religion.
It certainly includes freedom from government-sponsored religious
coercion, doesn't it?
Bill
>
> no-spam-...@world.std.com wrote:
> >
> > Such schools are violating the law. Contact the ACLU,
> > they will file a suit on behalf of those whose religious
> > rights were violated.
>
Name one, please.
Bill
>
> Bill wrote:
> >
> > merely having a bible in their possession. Have you?)
>
> You don't pay attention very much, do you?
Well, I sure thought I had been, but I've never heard one of these
so-called cases that didn't turn out to be an urban legend.
I'm paying attention now, so please, educate me.
I'm waiting.
Bill
>
> john q public wrote:
> >
> > > Some schools have dismissed teachers and suspended students for merely
> > > having a bible in their posession.
> >
> > In their posseion? Why do I think that there was a bit more going on than
> > that.
>
> I don't know...what are you imagining?
Well, there was the one that Newt Gingrich (AKA "Mr. Christian Family
Values") used to talk about all the time, where an elementary school boy
was suspended for bringing his bible to school. What Newt was leaving
out was that the boy wasn't just bringing his bible to school, he was
attempting to hold revival meetings in the cafeteria, in the hallways,
and anywhere else he could find students to rail at.
Bill
>
> Bill wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > They have been harassed for merely HAVING A BIBLE IN THEIR POSESSION
> > > while at school or at work.
> >
> > Okay, I'll plead ignorance here. Please educate me. Who has this
> > happened to, when did it happen, and at which school?
>
> It started in the early 80's. The number of cases reported in the
> newspapers (UPI/AP/Reuters) are too numerous to mention.
>
> fact I ever read in my life???? If you do, you're a moron.)
Well, okay, I'll accept that. What you're saying is not that these
abuses have actually happened, but that cases have been filed alleging
that they've happened. I have no argument whatsoever with that.
My only claim is that, while I've heard of plenty of these cases, I've
never heard of one that was actually legitimate.
Gregory Gadow
First off, paganism (more correctly, Neo-Paganism) is a large, diversified
religious movement, not a particular religion. It embraces groups and beliefs
as diverse as Wicca (modern Witchcraft ie Goddess worship), Asetru (worship of
the Nordic deities), Santeria and Voudon (drawn from Catholicism and
traditional African beliefs and practices), and Egyptian, Greek, Roman, and
other revivals of ancient faiths. The teacher in question was Wiccan, just to
keep the record straight.
As someone who has himself studied Wicca for several years, who has reached the
highest degree and who has taught it to others, let me say: Yes, Wicca is a
religion, as are most of the other traditions/practices/beliefs that a person
will self-acknowledge to be "pagan".
john q public
> > prayer
> > > > at gun point crowd!
> > >
harassed
> > > for merely leaving a bible on their desk.
> >
> > agree!
>
> BZZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong answer.
>
> 1st Amendment
> A: Freedom of Speech. You are allowed to have any legal(*) reading
material
> with you that you want at any time
> (*) NON-legal would be: seditious material and/or "obscene" pornography,
etc.
>
> is freedom *OF* religion.
>
Check into property rights and labor laws.
An employer has the right to limit the actions of an employee, while on the
employers property!
The employee has the right to resign if they do not like those limitations
Now I'm not going to get into the childish name calling and fighting, but if
you would like to have an intelligent
discussion please let me know!
>
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Religious bigotry is religious bigotry, regardless of the
religion.
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Gregory Gadow
> > > > > > E-mail: tech...@serv.net
> > > > > > American Liberal Party: http://www.americanliberal.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am a resident of Washington State. Any commerical
> > > > > > e-mail sent with false or misleading headers is in
> > > > > > violation of state law and subjectto a $500 penalty.
> > > > > > I WILL FILE CHARGES!
> > > > >
> > > > >
john q public
> > > Che'Gu Maru wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I just wanted to say I agree with you. During my nine years in the
> > > > public school system, I saw many teachers and students reading
Bibles
> > > > to themselves during their off periods. There was nothing
preventing
> > > > students from praying, even as a group, so long as they did so
during
> > > > non-academic time and in a way which did not force their prayers on
> > > > others (meaning, they could go into a classroom, close the door, and
> > > > pray all they wanted. They could NOT meet in the halls and scream
> > > > about non-believers going to hell at the top of their lungs.)
> > >
> > > Other schools have not been nearly so tolerant.
> > >
> > > having a bible in their posession.
> >
> > In their posseion? Why do I think that there was a bit more going on
than
> > that.
>
> I don't know...what are you imagining?
Right now since you do not seem to be able to support your claims, I imagine
that you are lying. Not very Christian of you, I might add!
>
>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > mahab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for
prayer
> > in
> > > > > school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
> > > > > people. And, actually, I don't remember that Jews in U.S. public
> > schools
> > > > > ever tried to force their prayers on other people, just
Christians.
> > > > >
> > > > > B.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > > > Before you buy.
> > >
> > >
john q public
> tony G as Frank Cannon wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:57:06 -0500, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
> > <aku...@alt.net> wrote:
> >
> > >mahab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >>
> > >> In article <3884A14F...@alt.net>,
in
> > >> school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
> > >
> > >
> > >They have been harassed for merely HAVING A BIBLE IN THEIR POSESSION
> > >while at school or at work.
> >
> > would help your case if you could find some instances where the case
> > wasn't ironed out in the end.
>
> What...you want me to go mining into landfills to find newspaper
references???
Ok, if you say you made it up, then I guess you made it up!
Or you could try researching the archives of the paper that you claim to
have read it in.
>
> It's not my fault you haven't been paying attention. This stuff was in
> the news quite frequently for several years.
> AP
> UPI
> Reuters
>
> What else do you want? Personal Gold-embossed announcements?
>
> >
> > >
john q public
> Bill wrote:
> >
> > Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Jesus H She wasn't forcing her religion down their throats, like the
prayer
> > > > at gun point crowd!
> > >
harassed
> > > for merely leaving a bible on their desk.
> >
>
> That's immaterial
Bs, you said "Christian were harassed for merely leaving a bible on their
desk."
Note You Said!
Now you say it is immaterial whether or not there were Pagan Books left on
the Pagans desk!
Bullshit, if she was bringing books to class and trying to shove her
religion down the throats of the kids, she was wrong, Just like the
Christians ARE WRONG!
john q public
> Bill wrote:
> >
> > Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for prayer
in
> > > > school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
> > >
> > > LIAR.
> > >
> > > They have been harassed for merely HAVING A BIBLE IN THEIR POSESSION
> > > while at school or at work.
> >
> > happened to, when did it happen, and at which school?
>
> It started in the early 80's. The number of cases reported in the
> newspapers (UPI/AP/Reuters) are too numerous to mention.
>
> (NO, I don't have references. You think I keep card catalogs of every
> fact I ever read in my life???? If you do, you're a moron.)
Why not, if you want someone to believe the STORY that you are spewing,
it is a good idea to have some sort of supporting proof! Only a Moron would
believe
anything they are told on the net without proof, Or expect to be believed
without proof!
David Horn
Adam Russell wrote:
> I hear a lot of people saying "paganism is/isn't a religion", but not once
> have I heard anyone speak from a position of authority. I think that it is
> one if and only if the followers believe it to be religious. Does anyone
> know how they actually see it?
Hewre's a good source on the pagan religious experience:
http://www.bloomington.in.us/~pen/welcome.html. It sure sounds like THEY
consider it a religion.
--
Opinions expressed here are mine; my employers opinions are boring.
<< For reply email remove .NOJUNK >>
Mark Balcom
>
> Paganism is not religion
>
>
You amaze me.
Is it ignorance?
Or is it stupidity?
How old are you?
What school do you attend?
Mark
Mark Balcom
>
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Tecknomage wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:49:47 +1000, Mathew <m...@kuentos.guam.net>
> >
> > > Paganism is not religion
> > >
> >
> > else has the right to define yours.
> >
> > Paganism, in its many sects, *is* a religion to those who practice it.
>
> It is not religion in the sense of organized religion that is
> There is a difference between religion and spiritual beliefs/sects as that
> religion is more often a cultural characteristic of a group of
> people,such as Protestantism in America coming from the large Anglo-Saxon
> roots of Americans and based in faith more so than the science of paganism
>
>
"science of paganism"?
How old are you.
Tecknomage
wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Tecknomage wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:49:47 +1000, Mathew <m...@kuentos.guam.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Paganism is not religion
> > >
> >
> > Wrong. You have no right to define someone else's religion and no one
> > else has the right to define yours.
> >
> > Paganism, in its many sects, *is* a religion to those who practice it.
>
> It is not religion in the sense of organized religion that is
Wrong again. Ever here of the Wiccans? They *are* an organized sect.
> There is a difference between religion and spiritual beliefs/sects as that
> religion is more often a cultural characteristic of a group of
> people,such as Protestantism in America coming from the large Anglo-Saxon
> roots of Americans and based in faith more so than the science of paganism
>
"Science of paganism"?!! Since when is *any* religion actually a
science? Religions are faith based, *not* based on science.
==== Tecknomage ====
"The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition to be
born in moments of revelation. None of us knows the shape of that
future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always
born in pain." G'Kar, Z'ha'dum
Unabogie
Phil <phil36@*spamblock*justice.com> wrote in message
news:86as0k$31i$2...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net...
> Chris Meyer wrote:
> >
> > Religion sucks
> >
> > Teachers jobs (theoretically) should be to teach OBJECTIVE facts to
> > EDUCATE. It would not be harsh to fire any teacher irrational enough
> > to practice religion.
>
> Typical left-wing bigotry.
What's left wing about atheism? Are you saying all atheists are liberals,
and all x-ians Right Wingers? I'd say Jesus himself was pretty much a
communist. He was anti money, pro prostitution, anti death penalty, and
anti authoritarian. Sounds just like Alan Keyes, huh? Just watch your
blanket statements.
Adam Russell
Unabogie <unab...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:86b5eb$a78i$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> Phil <phil36@*spamblock*justice.com> wrote in message
> news:86as0k$31i$2...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net...
> > Chris Meyer wrote:
> > >
> > > Religion sucks
> > >
> > > Teachers jobs (theoretically) should be to teach OBJECTIVE facts to
> > > EDUCATE. It would not be harsh to fire any teacher irrational enough
> > > to practice religion.
> >
> > Typical left-wing bigotry.
>
> What's left wing about atheism?
It doesn't sound atheistic or left wing to me. I would have thought right
wing but that could be *my* biases. Certainly it sounds like an ignorant,
close-minded control freak.
Mathew
On 21 Jan 2000, Gregory Gadow wrote:
> Mathew wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Tecknomage wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:49:47 +1000, Mathew <m...@kuentos.guam.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Paganism is not religion
> > > >
> > >
> > > Wrong. You have no right to define someone else's religion and no one
> > > else has the right to define yours.
> > >
> > > Paganism, in its many sects, *is* a religion to those who practice it.
> >
> > It is not religion in the sense of organized religion that is
> > There is a difference between religion and spiritual beliefs/sects as that
> > religion is more often a cultural characteristic of a group of
> > people,such as Protestantism in America coming from the large Anglo-Saxon
> > roots of Americans and based in faith more so than the science of paganism
>
> Patently false. No government agency WHATSOEVER -- and that includes public
> school districts -- have the right to determine what is or is not a religion.
We have seperation of church and state for a good reason
Religions themselves will say who they are
I guess Wiccan can be called a religion but still different than organised
> But to be honest, whether or not Wicca is a religion is irrelevant: the courts
> have long held that any belief which holds the place of religion in a person
> life is protected by the identical rights and protections that religious views
> are. Thus, the seeming contradiction of an Atheist being protected by right to
> religion, the fact that organizations such as the American Atheist Association
> and the American Humanist Association can be classified as "religious
> organizations" for tax purposes, and the fact that teaching atheism in public
> schools is just as anathema (if you will excuse the expression) as teaching
> Christianity.
Christmas is a religious holiday that is also part of our American
capitalistic culture for those who make a good profit off of it
Phil
Phil
>
> Adam Russell wrote:
>
> > I hear a lot of people saying "paganism is/isn't a religion", but not once
> > have I heard anyone speak from a position of authority. I think that it is
> > one if and only if the followers believe it to be religious. Does anyone
> > know how they actually see it?
>
> Hewre's a good source on the pagan religious experience:
> http://www.bloomington.in.us/~pen/welcome.html. It sure sounds like THEY
> consider it a religion.
Technically, "Paganism" is not a religion in a sense similar to
"Monotheism" not being a religion.
Mathew
It doesn't matter if it is or not,we don't have millions of Pagans
pushing their beliefs on other people unlike Christians
On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Mark Balcom wrote:
> Mathew wrote:
> >
> > Paganism is not religion
> >
> >
>
> You amaze me.
>
> Is it ignorance?
>
> Or is it stupidity?
>
> How old are you?
>
tony G as Frank Cannon
<kysd...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>
>Aaron R. Kulkis <aku...@alt.net> wrote in message
>> > >> This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for prayer
>in
>> > >> school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
>> > >
>> > >LIAR.
>> > >
>> > >They have been harassed for merely HAVING A BIBLE IN THEIR POSESSION
>> > >while at school or at work.
>> >
>> > Instead of screaming about it why don't you furnish us some proof. It
>> > would help your case if you could find some instances where the case
>> > wasn't ironed out in the end.
>>
>> What...you want me to go mining into landfills to find newspaper
>references???
>
>Ok, if you say you made it up, then I guess you made it up!
>
>Or you could try researching the archives of the paper that you claim to
>have read it in.
There are plenty of christain web sites on the net. If the US is so
full of these cases I don't know why He couldn't find some statistics
there.
>> It's not my fault you haven't been paying attention. This stuff was in
>> the news quite frequently for several years.
>> AP
>> UPI
>> Reuters
>>
>> What else do you want? Personal Gold-embossed announcements?
>>
>> >
>> > >
>> > >> people. And, actually, I don't remember that Jews in U.S. public
>schools
>> > >> ever tried to force their prayers on other people, just Christians.
>> > >>
>> > >> B.
>> > >>
>> > >> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>> > >> Before you buy.
>>
>>
tony G as Frank Cannon
<aku...@alt.net> wrote:
>no-spam-...@world.std.com wrote:
>>
>> >>>>> Aaron R Kulkis writes:
>>
>> Aaron> Che'Gu Maru wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I just wanted to say I agree with you. During my nine years in the
>> >> public school system, I saw many teachers and students reading Bibles
>> >> to themselves during their off periods. There was nothing preventing
>> >> students from praying, even as a group, so long as they did so during
>> >> non-academic time and in a way which did not force their prayers on
>> >> others (meaning, they could go into a classroom, close the door, and
>> >> pray all they wanted. They could NOT meet in the halls and scream
>> >> about non-believers going to hell at the top of their lungs.)
>>
>> Aaron> Other schools have not been nearly so tolerant.
>>
>> Aaron> Some schools have dismissed teachers and suspended students for merely
>> Aaron> having a bible in their posession.
>>
>> Such schools are violating the law. Contact the ACLU,
>> they will file a suit on behalf of those whose religious
>> rights were violated.
>
>THE ACLU instigated many of these suits, you MORON!
>
Now all you have to do is go to the ACLU web site and look around and
find us one.
>>
>> --
>> Andrew Hall
>> (Now reading Usenet in alt.rush-limbaugh...)
Mark Balcom
>
> Phil <phil36@*spamblock*justice.com> wrote in message
> news:86as0k$31i$2...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net..
> and all x-ians Right Wingers? I'd say Jesus himself was pretty much a
> communist.
You would be wrong.
He suggested helping those in NEED, but stressed earning one's own keep.
> He was anti money,
Wrong.
Perhaps you need to read the parables about the employees being given
charge of investments and and the workers in the vinyard being paid
agreed upon wages, among others.
>pro prostitution,
Not hardly!
"Go and sin no more."
>anti death penalty,
Where do you get that?
>and
> anti authoritarian.
Where do you get that?
What he was against was hypocricy.
> Sounds just like Alan Keyes, huh? Just watch your
> blanket statements.
Try again.
Next time try reading up on the subject first.
Mark
Mark Balcom
>
> Are you a pagan or a heathen?
Neither.
> It doesn't matter if it is or not,
Except that you made a definite statement claiming something that is
false.
>we don't have millions of Pagans
> pushing their beliefs on other people unlike Christians
>
Have you actually counted?
Mark
Mark Balcom
>
> Are you a pagan or a heathen?
> pushing their beliefs on other people unlike Christians
>
>
> > Mathew wrote:
> > >
> > > Paganism is not religion
> > >
> > >
> >
> > You amaze me.
> >
> > Is it ignorance?
> >
> > Or is it stupidity?
> >
> > How old are you?
> >
> > What school do you attend?
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
Why didn't you answer the questions?
Unabogie
Mark Balcom <ma...@coho.net> wrote in message news:388A2F...@coho.net...
> Unabogie wrote:
> You would be wrong.
>
> He suggested helping those in NEED, but stressed earning one's own keep.
No, I believe I'm right. He preached that we are our brother's keeper, did
he not? What does that phrase mean to you?
>
> > He was anti money,
>
> Wrong.
Right. He said that it was easier for a camel to pass throught the eye of
the needle, than for a yuppie like you to go to heaven. Shocking, I know,
but still true. Sorry, my hellbound friend.
>
> Perhaps you need to read the parables about the employees being given
> charge of investments and and the workers in the vinyard being paid
> agreed upon wages, among others.
>
> >pro prostitution,
>
> Not hardly!
>
> "Go and sin no more."
But, he also said, judge not, lest ye be judged. In other words, you aren't
wise enough to know what a sin is.
>
> >anti death penalty,
>
> Where do you get that?
He saved the whore from stoning. He said that those without sin should pull
the switch. Pretty clear to me. Are you without sin? Then you can't kill
another who has sinned, either.
>
> >and
> > anti authoritarian.
>
> Where do you get that?
He challenged the money changers, did he not? I'd say that his anti
authoritarianism got him whacked.
>
> What he was against was hypocricy.
>
> > Sounds just like Alan Keyes, huh? Just watch your
> > blanket statements.
>
> Try again.
No, this subject is actually pretty boring, arguing about non existent
dieties. So, I'll answer you if you wish, but it's not very interesting.
However, you never answered my question. What is left wing about atheism?
Have you never read Ayn Rand? Or do you just read your Wholly Babble?
Mathew
On Sat, 22 Jan 2000, Mark Balcom wrote:
> Mathew wrote:
> >
> > Are you a pagan or a heathen?
> > It doesn't matter if it is or not,we don't have millions of Pagans
> > pushing their beliefs on other people unlike Christians
> >
> > On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Mark Balcom wrote:
> >
> > > Mathew wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Paganism is not religion
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > You amaze me.
> > >
> > > Is it ignorance?
> > >
> > > Or is it stupidity?
> > >
> > > How old are you?
> > >
> > > What school do you attend?
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > >
>
>
> Why didn't you answer the questions?
Why should I answer;so you can have trivial arguments on trivial matters?
>
>
Mathew
I don't think you are familiar with them
On Sat, 22 Jan 2000, Mark Balcom wrote:
> Unabogie wrote:
> >
> > Phil <phil36@*spamblock*justice.com> wrote in message
> > news:86as0k$31i$2...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net..
> > > Chris Meyer wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Religion sucks
> > > >
> > > > Teachers jobs (theoretically) should be to teach OBJECTIVE facts to
> > > > EDUCATE. It would not be harsh to fire any teacher irrational enough
> > > > to practice religion.
> > >
> > > Typical left-wing bigotry.
> >
> > What's left wing about atheism? Are you saying all atheists are liberals,
> > and all x-ians Right Wingers? I'd say Jesus himself was pretty much a
> > communist.
>
> You would be wrong.
>
> He suggested helping those in NEED, but stressed earning one's own keep.
>
> > He was anti money,
>
> Wrong.
>
> Perhaps you need to read the parables about the employees being given
> charge of investments and and the workers in the vinyard being paid
> agreed upon wages, among others.
>
> >pro prostitution,
>
> Not hardly!
>
> "Go and sin no more."
>
> >anti death penalty,
>
> Where do you get that?
>
> >and
> > anti authoritarian.
>
> Where do you get that?
>
> What he was against was hypocricy.
>
> > Sounds just like Alan Keyes, huh? Just watch your
> > blanket statements.
>
> Try again.
>
j
>Mathew wrote:
>>
>> Are you a pagan or a heathen?
>> It doesn't matter if it is or not,we don't have millions of Pagans
>> pushing their beliefs on other people unlike Christians
>Why didn't you answer the questions?
Oh ... I think he actually *did* answer the real question ...
Gregory Gadow
> On 21 Jan 2000, Gregory Gadow wrote:
>
> > Mathew wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Tecknomage wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:49:47 +1000, Mathew <m...@kuentos.guam.net>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Paganism is not religion
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Wrong. You have no right to define someone else's religion and no one
> > > > else has the right to define yours.
> > > >
> > > > Paganism, in its many sects, *is* a religion to those who practice it.
> > >
> > > It is not religion in the sense of organized religion that is
> > > There is a difference between religion and spiritual beliefs/sects as that
> > > religion is more often a cultural characteristic of a group of
> > > people,such as Protestantism in America coming from the large Anglo-Saxon
> > > roots of Americans and based in faith more so than the science of paganism
> >
> > Patently false. No government agency WHATSOEVER -- and that includes public
> > school districts -- have the right to determine what is or is not a religion.
>
> We have seperation of church and state for a good reason
> Religions themselves will say who they are
> I guess Wiccan can be called a religion but still different than organised
Tell me, is Christianity an "organized religion"? Can you point out which of the
several hundred denominational organizations is Christianity to the exclusion of all
other organizations? What about the perhaps thousands of independent Christian
congregations that exist without any other organizational structure? Are they
religions, even though they are not organized? And the hundreds of thousands of
individual believers who do not belong to a particular church... do they mean that
Christianity is not a religion? And if they are, what then is the difference in
"being a religion" between Christianity and the Neo-Pagan movement? Unity of belief?
Ha! I *dare* you to get a Catholic priest, an Orthodox bishop, a Unitarian minister,
a Lutheran reverand, a Quaker, a Mormon, and a genuine Tennessee snake-handler in a
room and come up with a single statement of doctrine that they all universally
accept. I double dare you.
> > But to be honest, whether or not Wicca is a religion is irrelevant: the courts
> > have long held that any belief which holds the place of religion in a person
> > life is protected by the identical rights and protections that religious views
> > are. Thus, the seeming contradiction of an Atheist being protected by right to
> > religion, the fact that organizations such as the American Atheist Association
> > and the American Humanist Association can be classified as "religious
> > organizations" for tax purposes, and the fact that teaching atheism in public
> > schools is just as anathema (if you will excuse the expression) as teaching
> > Christianity.
>
> Christmas is a religious holiday that is also part of our American
> capitalistic culture for those who make a good profit off of it
According to the Supreme Court, Christmas is a secular holiday despite its religious
roots.
msm...@my-deja.com
"Chris Meyer" <southe...@worldnet.att.com> wrote:
> Religion sucks
>
> Teachers jobs (theoretically) should be to teach OBJECTIVE facts to
> EDUCATE. It would not be harsh to fire any teacher irrational enough
> to practice religion.
>
Hey, you want to be atheist, fine by me. But if you think you're
going to legislate your beliefs on me, you're going to be in for
a big surprise.
Mike Smith
--
Email: maxomenos@SPAM=DEATHmindspring.com
Web is under repair
Boycott eToys, DVD, Amazon.com for trampling online speech
msm...@my-deja.com
satan is
> a gay homosexual, but we have more important things to worry about
that what
> someone believes to worship.
You're right, paganism is religion; and you're right, it is unique
in a lot of ways. But most pagan religions barely recognize Satan,
let alone worship, honor, or even pay attention to Satan.
[NB- I've heard the argument "Well if you don't worship God then you
must worship Satan." The argument is called a false dillema, and it's
not logical.]
>
> John DeLaGarza
>
>
Mike Smith, Hecate worshiper.
msm...@my-deja.com
<Pine.BSD/.3.91.10001211423...@saba.kuentos.guam.net>,
Mathew <m...@kuentos.guam.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Tecknomage wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:49:47 +1000, Mathew <m...@kuentos.guam.net>
> >
> > > Paganism is not religion
> > >
> >
one
> > else has the right to define yours.
> >
> > Paganism, in its many sects, *is* a religion to those who practice
it.
>
> It is not religion in the sense of organized religion that is
By this definition, fundamentalist Christianity, which is inherently
unorganized, is not a religion.
> There is a difference between religion and spiritual beliefs/sects as
that
> religion is more often a cultural characteristic of a group of
> people,such as Protestantism in America coming from the large
Anglo-Saxon
> roots of Americans and based in faith more so than the science of
paganism
Believe it or not, there *is* a culture surrounding Paganism. In fact,
in most of the United States, there's a such thing as the pagan
community,
with its own sociology, mores, practises and politics, both internal
and external.
These same things are true of fundamentalist Christianity.
As far as Paganism not being faith-based...here again you are mistaken.
I put my faith in the gods. Not all of us are true believers, but
how many so-called Christians are true believers?
Mike Smith
msm...@my-deja.com
Gregory Gadow <tech...@serv.net> wrote:
> Mathew wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Tecknomage wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:49:47 +1000, Mathew <m...@kuentos.guam.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Paganism is not religion
> > > >
> > >
> > > Wrong. You have no right to define someone else's religion and no
one
> > > else has the right to define yours.
> > >
> > > Paganism, in its many sects, *is* a religion to those who practice
it.
> >
> > It is not religion in the sense of organized religion that is
as that
> > religion is more often a cultural characteristic of a group of
> > people,such as Protestantism in America coming from the large
Anglo-Saxon
> > roots of Americans and based in faith more so than the science of
paganism
>
public
> school districts -- have the right to determine what is or is not a
religion.
Point of fact: the courts can determine what constitutes a
religion for tax purposes, as can the IRS.
One of the watershed events in American Wicca is the recognition
of Wicca as a religion for tax code purposes.
Wicca is also listed in the U. S. Army Chaplain's Manual.
(More information: www.witchvox.com)
msm...@my-deja.com
> >
> > Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> > >
> > >
merely
> >
never
> > actually heard of a case where a student was actually disciplined
for
> > merely having a bible in their possession. Have you?)
>
> You don't pay attention very much, do you?
Aaron, you *could* post a news article which contains an example
of this kind of discrimination. Frankly, I read the newspapers and
comb through the media all the time. I haven't heard of such a
case either, with the exception of the case of one Dr. Maxwell
Lynch, formerly a mathematics professor at Indiana University.
And that was decades ago. In his case, he started each class with
a Bible reading. The University dismissed him because it was
intimidating
to non-Christian students, and the Supreme Court eventually agreed.
I've met Brother Max. He's a nutcase. If I had had him for a professor,
I would have switched classes.
Instead of berating people for not paying attention, you could provide
examples of what you're talking about. Not everyone is media savvy.
>
> --
> Aaron R. Kulkis
> Unix Systems Engineer
> ICQ # 3056642
Mike Smith
Bill
>
> You're right, paganism is religion; and you're right, it is unique
> in a lot of ways. But most pagan religions barely recognize Satan,
> let alone worship, honor, or even pay attention to Satan.
I'd be surprised if any followers of pagan religions recognize Satan,
considering that he's a figure from the Christian bible.
> [NB- I've heard the argument "Well if you don't worship God then you
> must worship Satan." The argument is called a false dillema, and it's
> not logical.]
I suppose if you believe in the Christian god, then you also believe in
Satan, and I guess you worship one or the other. None of that concerns
most of the world's population, who don't believe in either.
Adam Russell
> considering that he's a figure from the Christian bible.
No I think Satan is not merely a Christian figure. Remember some countries
in the middle east like to call US "the great Satan", and not in a
worshipful way either <g>.
Adam Russell
> > > Chris Meyer wrote:
> > >
> > > > Religion sucks
> > > >
> > > > Teachers jobs (theoretically) should be to teach OBJECTIVE facts to
> > > > EDUCATE. It would not be harsh to fire any teacher irrational enough
> > > > to practice religion.
> > >
> >
> > What's left wing about atheism?
>
>
> > Are you saying all atheists are liberals, and all x-ians Right Wingers?
>
> be Christians.
When atheists try to *force* their beliefs on others they cease to be
liberals.
Adam Russell
> >
> > > Most atheists tend to be liberals, and most right wingers tend to
> > > be Christians.
> >
> > When atheists try to *force* their beliefs on others they cease to be
> > liberals.
>
According to Websters dictionary:
Liberal: favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual
freedom possible.
When someone tries to limit my freedoms then that is the opposite of
liberal.
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> > Bill wrote:
> > >
> > > Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for prayer in
> > > > > school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
> > > >
> > > > LIAR.
> > > >
> > > > They have been harassed for merely HAVING A BIBLE IN THEIR POSESSION
> > > > while at school or at work.
> > >
> > > happened to, when did it happen, and at which school?
> >
> > It started in the early 80's. The number of cases reported in the
> > newspapers (UPI/AP/Reuters) are too numerous to mention.
>
> And therefore you won't even mention one?
No, I won't. I do not have a newspaper collection going back to my
high school days...and even if I did, I certainly wouldn't waste my
time shuffling through it.
Your request is unreasonable, and thus, I will not respond.
Maybe someon has a Nexis/Lexis account and can look it up.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
Aaron R. Kulkis
>
> Aaron R. Kulkis <aku...@alt.net> wrote in message
> news:38885422...@alt.net...
> > Bill wrote:
> > >
> > > Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jesus H She wasn't forcing her religion down their throats, like the
> prayer
> > > > > at gun point crowd!
> > > >
> > > > Same can be said for a lot of Christians and Jews who have been
> harassed
> > > > for merely leaving a bible on their desk.
> > >
> > > Did she have Pagan books on her desk?
> >
> > That's immaterial
>
> Bs, you said "Christian were harassed for merely leaving a bible on their
> desk."
> Note You Said!
> Now you say it is immaterial whether or not there were Pagan Books left on
> the Pagans desk!
Look at the quotes above.
It sounded like you were asking if a Christian teacher had both a
bible AND pagan books on her desk.
In the future, try writing more clearly.
> Bullshit, if she was bringing books to class and trying to shove her
> religion down the throats of the kids, she was wrong, Just like the
> Christians ARE WRONG!
Nobody every accused these teachers of doing that.
It was merely POSSESSION of a bible.
Aaron R. Kulkis
> in
> > > >> school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on other
> > > >
> > > >LIAR.
> > > >
> > > >They have been harassed for merely HAVING A BIBLE IN THEIR POSESSION
> > > >while at school or at work.
> > >
> > > would help your case if you could find some instances where the case
> > > wasn't ironed out in the end.
> >
> > What...you want me to go mining into landfills to find newspaper
> references???
>
> Ok, if you say you made it up, then I guess you made it up!
>
> Or you could try researching the archives of the paper that you claim to
> have read it in.
I've got better things to do with my time than to hang out in the
offices of the Detroit Free Press looking for old newspaper articles.
Your request is unreasonable, and therefore, will not be fulfilled.
Adam Russell
> > Bullshit, if she was bringing books to class and trying to shove her
> > religion down the throats of the kids, she was wrong, Just like the
> > Christians ARE WRONG!
>
> Nobody every accused these teachers of doing that.
>
> It was merely POSSESSION of a bible.
What a liar.
Phil
> > Chris Meyer wrote:
> >
> > > Religion sucks
> > >
> > > Teachers jobs (theoretically) should be to teach OBJECTIVE facts to
> > > EDUCATE. It would not be harsh to fire any teacher irrational enough
> > > to practice religion.
> >
> > Typical left-wing bigotry.
>
> What's left wing about atheism?
What do you think the opposite of the "religious right" would be?
> Are you saying all atheists are liberals, and all x-ians Right Wingers?
Most atheists tend to be liberals, and most right wingers tend to
be Christians.
Phil
>
> > Most atheists tend to be liberals, and most right wingers tend to
> > be Christians.
>
john q public
Try this, and stop making excuses. Please.
http://www.webwombat.com.au/intercom/newsprs/
Or simply admit that you made it up!
john q public
> > > Bill wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > john q public wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jesus H She wasn't forcing her religion down their throats, like
the
> > prayer
> > > > > > at gun point crowd!
> > > > >
> > harassed
> > > > > for merely leaving a bible on their desk.
> > > >
> > > > Did she have Pagan books on her desk?
> > >
> > > That's immaterial
> >
> > Bs, you said "Christian were harassed for merely leaving a bible on
their
> > desk."
> > Note You Said!
> > Now you say it is immaterial whether or not there were Pagan Books left
on
> > the Pagans desk!
>
> Look at the quotes above.
>
> It sounded like you were asking if a Christian teacher had both a
> bible AND pagan books on her desk.
>
> In the future, try writing more clearly.
>
Nobody "every" what.
Next time while trying to write more clearly, you might want to consider the
material that your house is made of before tossing stones!
Bullshit!
john q public
> Gregory Gadow wrote:
> >
> > "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> >
> > > Bill wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > This is a lie. Christians and Jews have not been harassed for
prayer in
> > > > > > school. They have been blocked from forcing their prayers on
other
> > > > >
> > > > > LIAR.
> > > > >
> > > > > They have been harassed for merely HAVING A BIBLE IN THEIR
POSESSION
> > > > > while at school or at work.
> > > >
> > > > happened to, when did it happen, and at which school?
> > >
> > > It started in the early 80's. The number of cases reported in the
> > > newspapers (UPI/AP/Reuters) are too numerous to mention.
> >
> > And therefore you won't even mention one?
>
> No, I won't. I do not have a newspaper collection going back to my
> high school days...and even if I did, I certainly wouldn't waste my
> time shuffling through it.
>
> Your request is unreasonable, and thus, I will not respond.
This being stated twice now, I have no concerns with calling you a LIAR!
>
> Maybe someon has a Nexis/Lexis account and can look it up.
>
>
Gregory Gadow
> In article <869qpr$7ai$0...@199.201.191.2>,
> Gregory Gadow <tech...@serv.net> wrote:
> > Patently false. No government agency WHATSOEVER -- and that includes
> public
> > school districts -- have the right to determine what is or is not a
> religion.
>
> Point of fact: the courts can determine what constitutes a
> religion for tax purposes, as can the IRS.
>
> One of the watershed events in American Wicca is the recognition
> of Wicca as a religion for tax code purposes.
>
> Wicca is also listed in the U. S. Army Chaplain's Manual.
>
> (More information: www.witchvox.com)
Mike, I'm in your corner, but I stand with what I said. The IRS only has the
authority to determine whether or not a particular organization qualifies as
a *religious organization* for tax purposes. That is not by any stretch the
same thing as recognizing whether or not the foundation of that organization
is or is not a religion. This has led to the incongruous definition of the
American Atheists and the American Humanist Association being classified as
as churches for tax purposes.
Likewise, the IRS has never issued a ruling stating that Wicca is a
religion. Rather, they have recognized Wiccan organizations such as the
Covenant of the Goddess and other Pagan associations -- I believe the Church
of All Worlds and the Asatru Free Assembly, among others -- as religious
organizations. These are indeed very important decisions; I am not in any
way diminishing that. But while that is an important step to legitimizing
those who hold to and practice these religions, it is not the same thing,
under law, as recognizing them as "religions".
Gregory Gadow
> Unabogie wrote:
>
> Most atheists tend to be liberals, and most right wingers tend to
> be Christians.
<sermonette>
And from my point of view, at least, that is not a compliment to Christians,
certainly not the many, many Christians I have known and admired who actually
practiced what Jesus taught: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving
shelter to the homeless, comforting the grieving, giving help to the helpless,
loving their neighbor as themselves... after all, who is their neighbor? The
rich family next door, or the poor Samaritan living with AIDS on the streets
in Pioneer Square?
And you know what? All of these commands from God Himself (if you accept
traditional Christian theology) are constantly being derided by conservative
"christians" as "liberal secular humanism" and therefore worthy only of
contempt from the "righteous".
Take a look at this passage from Scripture, where Jesus describes his coming
again and the Judgement he will bring:
"Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my
Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I
was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick
and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and
feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a
stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee
sick or in prison and visit thee?'
And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of
the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into
the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and
you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger
and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in
prison and you did not visit me.'
Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a
stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of
the least of these, you did it not to me.'
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal
life."
-Matthew 25:34-46
</sermonette>
Aaron R. Kulkis
Being called a liar by a liar is hardly condemnation.