The Four Forces Pushing For War With Iran (in order of influence)
James Miller
By James Miller
1 - ISRAEL AND AMERICAN POLITICIANS BOUGHT OFF BY THE ISRAEL LOBBY
The Israel Lobby (AIPAC) is working overtime to get dumb Americans to fight
another war on its behalf. Politicians who call Israel out (like Ron Paul)
are accused of "anti-Semitism" (pardon me while I vomit). Never forget that
the Israel Lobby runs U.S. foreign policy.
2 - NEOCON GLOBAL IMPERIALISTS
The NEOCON goal is simply to expand the American empire. Controlling Iran is
yet another step towards controlling the Middle East. Forty percent of the
world's energy comes from Middle East oil. Thus if one can control the
Middle East, one can control forty percent of the world's energy supply.
Controlling Middle East oil means you can control much of the global
economy.
3 - THE OIL LOBBY
There is big money to be made by tapping into Iran's MASSIVE crude oil
reserves.
4 - MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX (ie. war profiteers)
War is big business, very big. War profiteers simply accuse their critics of
being "unpatriotic" and "standing in the way of freedom and democracy"
(again, pardon me while I vomit).
--
For SERIOUS conservative writing visit my blog:
http://immigration-globalization.blogspot.com
nada
wrote:
US imperialism, is the major cause of the proposed attacks. If Israel
attacks, it will only do so for political, not military reasons, with
the support of, US imperialism and it's allies in the region: Iraq,
Jordan and Saudi Arabia. Only Iraq has questioned the right of a
Zionist attack on Iran but they have zero means to oppose it.
D.
USENET
If the Iranians are developing nuclear weapons then the Israeli's have
a very good military reason to attack.
macphineas
> If the Iranians are developing nuclear weapons then the Israeli's have
> a very good military reason to attack.
With nuclear weapons?
macphineas
Bert Hyman
news:89b33d76-8ea6-4c04...@y28g2000prd.googlegroups.com
macphineas <macph...@gmail.com> wrote:
Why not?
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN be...@iphouse.com
srd
I find it surprising that the fascists are opposed to the Iraq and
Afghanistan wars. (The BNP also fits the picture; it says bring the
British troops home to police the borders!) The Nazis obviously
supported Germany's foreign wars. What do you think is the reason for
their opposition? Overpowering anti-Semitism? Seems like there must be
something more.
srd
macphineas
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:07:04 -0800 (PST), macphineas
> reason to think they couldn't do the same thing with Iran. The
> problem is that any attack on Iran, by anybody, will result in a $200+
> plus barrel of oil.
Maybe irony really is dead...
macphineas
jh
> Innews:89b33d76-8ea6-4c04...@y28g2000prd.googlegroups.com
>
> macphineas <macphine...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> If the Iranians are developing nuclear weapons then the Israeli's
> >> have a very good military reason to attack.
>
> > With nuclear weapons?
>
> Why not?
>
> --
Well, because Israel is a very small country, and if it were to use
nuclear weapons without direct provocation, understood as such by
everybody, then all other Middle Eastern countries would spend all
their oil revenues on crash nuclear programs, and sooner or later
there'd be an extremist coup somewhere, and sooner or later somebody
would nuke Tel Aviv in response, and that would be it for Israel. One
nuke would probably be enough to render Israel uninhabitable.
So, despite much hope by certain Americans and their oil companies
that Israel will nuke Iran for them, this is not gonna happen, it's
all rhetoric. There might be a conventional strike, Ahmedinajad
certainly hopes so, it would end his internal political difficulties.
-jh-
jh
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:07:04 -0800 (PST), macphineas
>
> <macphine...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> reason to think they couldn't do the same thing with Iran. The
> problem is that any attack on Iran, by anybody, will result in a $200+
> plus barrel of oil.
Which Iran would love of course. Another reason why the prospect does
not worry the Iranians much.
And knocking out Iranian facilities would not be as easy as with Iraq.
The Israelis had surprise, and Saddam had all his nuclear eggs in one
basket. The Iranian facilities are spread out over the country and
often underground.
-jh-
jh
Well, mac, when chatting with Americans about nukes, it is unwise to
engage in irony. Americans have used nukes before, Hiroshima and all
that, and under the right circumstances will do so again. The
circumstances have just never been right somehow.
-jh-
Viejo Vizcacha
True fascists start FIRST taking over their own country and THEN go
out to conquer the world, or at least the immeadiate surroundings.
The BNP knows that British troops in the Middle East are not advancing
any significant British interest.
VV
hal
wrote:
>On Nov 26, 4:09=A0pm, Bert Hyman <b...@iphouse.com> wrote:
>> Innews:89b33d76-8ea6-4c04...@y28g2000prd.googlegroups.com
>>
>> macphineas <macphine...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> If the Iranians are developing nuclear weapons then the Israeli's
>> >> have a very good military reason to attack.
>>
>> > With nuclear weapons?
>>
>> Why not?
>>
>> --
>> Bert Hyman =A0 =A0 =A0St. Paul, MN =A0 =A0b...@iphouse.com
>
>Well, because Israel is a very small country, and if it were to use
>nuclear weapons without direct provocation, understood as such by
>everybody, then all other Middle Eastern countries would spend all
>their oil revenues on crash nuclear programs, and sooner or later
>there'd be an extremist coup somewhere, and sooner or later somebody
>would nuke Tel Aviv in response, and that would be it for Israel. One
>nuke would probably be enough to render Israel uninhabitable.
Personally, I'ld say good riddance.
dusty
That would indeed be a long term project!
More likely they have some kind of grasp of being the enemy of a
UNIFIED world system - and its kind of wars along with mass
immigration, export of jobs...are part of that. They are not so stupid
as to be unable to see that.
Mosley (Moses?) would have reacted the same way, but, in his case his
line was around the defence of a powerful entity Britain already held
- the Empire. That didn't require aggression - except for its
retention - which likely would have brought them into conflict with
the other - less "endowed" fascist powers down the historical track.
Because of all this, the bourgeoisie in Britain would have had a
definite role for Mosley (he was after all "one of them"). But they
have no role for the petty bourgeois BNP clown - Nick "what's-his-
name", or his party as those days are gone (THAT is why they look like
clowns!). They and the Jewish bourgeoisie in Britain (insofar as you
can disentangle that can o' worms) today put their trust in the new
Neo-Liberal free-for-all Empire, much more resembling the Hitlerite
project of yesteryear.
macphineas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-yO9kEIN50
Played in Japan, no less.
***
On a serious note, it should be made clear that nuclear weapons are an
imperialist country's trump card against both oppressed countries and
their own imperialist rivals. States without nuclear weapons are
unable, for fear of annihilation, of waging war on a state with even a
modest nuclear arsenal. Imperialist countries, especially since the
fall of the Soviet Union, can thus invade anyone they see fit with
near impunity, ala Iraq and Afghanistan. So any country in the
imperialist cross hairs- Syria, Iran, North Korea, or Venezuela or
Cuba for that matter- have the right to develop and maintain nuclear
weapons for their defense against imperialist aggression. So
regardless of whether the US or Israel can or cannot actually carry
out a military attack on Iran, its right to develop nuclear weapons
(and nuclear power) must be defended, particularly by Americans.
macphineas
jh
Yup.
-jh-
SaPeIsMa
"jh" <jhshe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f2c680b5-3066-4196...@v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
# Yup.
#
The basic mistake you two morons make is the presumption that the US is an
"imperialistic country"
Your example of Japan even puts the lie to that claim
Had the US been an "imperialistic country", they would still be occupying
Japan and claiming it as a provincial territory, part of their "empire"
The fact that this is clearly FALSE, puts the lie to your claim and your
justification that tin-pot dictatorships like Iran and Venezuela are
justifiied in going nuclear.
Ironically, your claim was and is still true of "socialist/communist"
countries
like the USSR, China, North Korea, North Vietnam, etc.
But this has NEVER been true of the US
This is one of those stupid lies that the left likes to repeat and swallow
over and over again
Which just goes to show how stupid, gullible and brainless, the idiots
on the left actually are.
nada
> "jh" <jhsherl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
You have no idea what Imperialism is, do you? You think it's just
naked militaristic governments? First, the US DOES occupy Japan. They
have over 50,000 troops, a navy and several air fore bases. The point
of this is for strategic imperialist aggression against the Chinese,
Secondly, Imperialiam is a political economic term that requires
capital in the US (and other imperialist countries) to compete with
each other (leading to war) and domination of other countries. Why did
the US reseablis ht's Fourth Fleet for Latin America? How 'threatens'
the security of the US there? Why does the US demand huge bilateral
economic concessions from every country it does business with? Why
does the US overthrow democratically elected gov'ts like the Iranian
gov't in 1953 or the Chilean one in 1973 or the Honduran one this
year? It's all to assure US *imperialist* dominance over it wanting to
control markets. THIS is imperialism and the US is the biggest in the
world (and of course the US does occupy Iraq and Afghanisan...but that
is too obvious).
jh
> "jh" <jhsherl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Ah huh. First we nuked 'em and then, when Mao started making trouble,
we signed 'em up as junior partners for Korea, Vietnam, and all those
other little non-imperialistic ventures the USA killed so many
millions of people in, for the benefit of our and Japan's control over
everything in the Far East except China. They'd been taught their
lesson after all. We supplied the troops, they made out like bandits
producing for our war machine. Biogest unsinkable naval base in the
world. We were so grateful that we even let them sell us cars, to the
great regret of Detroit.
No imperialism there! Just like Iraq, where the Iraquis welcomed Dubya
with flowers, as everybody knows. And Afghanistan.
Tom Lehrer wrote a great song about this. Here's a couple verses:
"When someone makes a move,
Of which we don't approve,
Who is it that always intervenes?
UN and OAS, they have their place I guess,
But first, send the Marines!
...
For might makes right, until they've seen the light,
They've got to be protected, all their rights respected, till somebody
we like can be elected..."
>
> Ironically, your claim was and is still true of "socialist/communist"
> countries
> like the USSR, China, North Korea, North Vietnam, etc.
> But this has NEVER been true of the US
> This is one of those stupid lies that the left likes to repeat and swallow
> over and over again
> Which just goes to show how stupid, gullible and brainless, the idiots
> on the left actually are.
Anybody who can believe the above swill, I have a nice bridge in
Brooklyn they might like to buy.
-jh-
macphineas
William Blum's book Killing Hope has a fun anecdote about US
imperialism vs Chinese/Soviet "imperialism." It is in the chapter on
Korea, and unfortunately it is not online here (http://
killinghope.org/) nor do I know where my hard copy is. Is goes
something like this: US POWs in the Korean War had a very high rate
of materially aiding the enemy, or something like that, and the
Pentagon wondered why. One major cause noted by them was the
effectiveness of Chinese/North Korean propoganda, particularly maps
showing the location of US military bases, how they ringed the Soviet
Union and China. Apparently US soldiers were shocked to learn that
they weren't fighting against Communist "imperialism" so much as for
US imperialism, something FDR and Truman had insisted didn't exist,
they only fought on distant shores for "democracy" and "freedom."
macphineas
SaPeIsMa
"nada" <dwalt...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5dd69114-6b5c-484b...@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
# You have no idea what Imperialism is, do you?
#
Most definitely a better grasp of it than you
As demonstrated by your next (stupid) statement
#
# You think it's just naked militaristic governments?
# First, the US DOES occupy Japan.
NOPE !
If the US was "occupying Japan" as you so ignorantly claim
They would have control of the government
The US gave back control of the government to the Japanese over 50 years ago
(Time to get an update of your history calendar)
# They have over 50,000 troops, a navy and several air fore bases.
Well whoop-de-doo
Having a few bases is NOT "occupation" dummy
You also need to CONTROL the population to qualify as an "occupier"
#
# The point of this is for strategic imperialist aggression against the
Chinese,
LOL
You really are an ignorant dolt
Do explain to us EXACTLY how a US presence in Japan is about "strategic
imperialist aggression against the Chinese"
Take as many screens as you need
#
# Secondly, Imperialiam is a political economic term that requires
# capital in the US (and other imperialist countries) to compete with
# each other (leading to war) and domination of other countries.
<sigh>
Who teaches the kids this kind of ignorant cant ?
Main Entry: imperialism
Function: noun
Date: 1800
1 : imperial government, authority, or system
2 : the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power
and dominion of a nation especially by
DIRECT TERRITORIAL ACQUISITIONS
or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life
of other areas;
broadly : the extension or IMPOSITION of POWER, AUTHORITY, or
INFLUENCE <union imperialism>
Notice the key words
(I've highlighted the important ones for you)
Now go ahead and explain to use how that was done on China or Japan in the
last 50 years
And by the way, you ignorant dolt, China has probably MORE "imperialistic
control" over the US than vice-versa.
# Why did the US reseablis ht's Fourth Fleet for Latin America?
# How 'threatens' the security of the US there?
1) Quite possibly because there is a shithead in Venezuela who amongs
other things is financing terrorists in it's neighbors back yard, Colombia
I'm sure you've heard of that little inconvenient bit of truth
2) And the US has allies and friends in some South American countries who
are threatened and under attack by shitheads like Chavez of Venezuela
Maybe the fleet is there to send a message to the local shithead bullies to
watch their steps and leave the friends of the US alone.
# Why does the US demand huge bilateral economic concessions
# from every country it does business with?
Feel free to list those " bilateral economic concessions "
Take as many scresns as you need
# Why does the US overthrow democratically elected gov'ts like the Iranian
# gov't in 1953 or the Chilean one in 1973 or the Honduran one this year?
Just goes to show your ignorance again
1) Iran was a pawn against the Soviet
I'm sure that little socialists shitheads are all for another Soviet
Satrap
2) Honduras acted on it's own against a shithead wannabe
President-for-Life who a la Chavez and with his asssistance, attempted to
subvert the Honduran Constitution and change it to get himself to be
"President-for-Life", just like that scumbag Chavez did in Venezuela
But then apparently you have no problem when socialist scumbags do that
kind of thing
Now do you, you little cockroach
# It's all to assure US *imperialist* dominance over it wanting to control
markets.
# THIS is imperialism and the US is the biggest in the world
# (and of course the US does occupy Iraq and Afghanisan...
# but that is too obvious).
Yup
So do NATO troops in Afghanistan and allied troops in Iraq
A minor detail that you have (oh so conveniently) left out of your ignorance
screed
Let's not also forget, that according to your biased and bigoted
description, the US has twice invaded European countries, such as France,
Belgium, Germany, Austria, Italy, as well as countries in the Pacific such
as Japan and the Phillipines, only to re-establish democratic government in
them, as they are now doing in Iraq and Aghanistan, to subseqynlty return
control of said governments to their respective populations.
This is the complete opposite of such Socialist luminaries like Germany
under Hitler, Italy under Mussolini, the Soviet under Lenn, Stalin, et al,
China, under Mao, et al, who happily invaded and TRULY CONTROLLED as
imperial satraps, countries like Poland, East East Germany, Austria, Hungary
Czekoslovakia, et al, or like China is currently doing with Tibet.
But thank your for the demonstration of your ignorance and hatred for
anything that is great in the US
You should be proud of the fact that you have well memorized your ignorant
socialist propganda and did a great job of regurgitating it the way you have
been programmed
SaPeIsMa
# Ah huh. First we nuked 'em and then, when Mao started making trouble,
# we signed 'em up as junior partners for Korea, Vietnam, and all those
# other little non-imperialistic ventures the USA killed so many
# millions of people in, for the benefit of our and Japan's control over
# everything in the Far East except China. They'd been taught their
# lesson after all. We supplied the troops, they made out like bandits
# producing for our war machine. Biogest unsinkable naval base in the
# world. We were so grateful that we even let them sell us cars, to the
# great regret of Detroit.
Oh look here's the tock to the other tick..
Funny that all those alleged "imperialistic ventures" whenever successfull
always ended up getting rid of dictators and installing democratic countries
that did well
But to mention minor details that in cases like Korea, the Chinese where
pushing to North Koreans, to take over Democratic South Korea. The even
provided troops and equipment. So did the Soviet
And we all know what a Socialist heaven North Korea has become..
It's so successfull that it's the ONLY part of the Asian land mass that
is COMPLETELY DARK at night.
Must be because they'se so green and are trying to avoid global warming
The same is true for Vietnam. Support from socialist heavens like China and
the Soviet to convert a democnracy into a socialist heaven
We all saw the kind of heaven it became after the US (as per the
Democrats) abandonned South Vietnam
#
# No imperialism there! Just like Iraq, where the Iraquis welcomed Dubya
# with flowers, as everybody knows. And Afghanistan.
#
# Tom Lehrer wrote a great song about this. Here's a couple verses:
#
# "When someone makes a move,
# Of which we don't approve,
# Who is it that always intervenes?
# UN and OAS, they have their place I guess,
# But first, send the Marines!
Yup
Sometimes there is a need for the Marines because corrupt and useless bodies
like the UN are more than willing to sit on their hands and do NOTHING
#...
# For might makes right, until they've seen the light,
# They've got to be protected, all their rights respected, till somebody
# we like can be elected..."
Sort- of like Saddam was "elected" by the Kuwaitis ?
How about those terrorits who elect themselves to kill innocents all over
the world
Why don't you start growing up ?
>
> Ironically, your claim was and is still true of "socialist/communist"
> countries
> like the USSR, China, North Korea, North Vietnam, etc.
> But this has NEVER been true of the US
> This is one of those stupid lies that the left likes to repeat and swallow
> over and over again
> Which just goes to show how stupid, gullible and brainless, the idiots
> on the left actually are.
#
# Anybody who can believe the above swill, I have a nice bridge in
# Brooklyn they might like to buy.
The only "bridge" that a shithead like you could ever own, is a model built
using matchsticks
jh
> "jh" <jhsherl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>...
> #
> # Ah huh. First we nuked 'em and then, when Mao started making trouble,
> # we signed 'em up as junior partners for Korea, Vietnam, and all those
> # other little non-imperialistic ventures the USA killed so many
> # millions of people in, for the benefit of our and Japan's control over
> # everything in the Far East except China. They'd been taught their
> # lesson after all. We supplied the troops, they made out like bandits
> # producing for our war machine. Biogest unsinkable naval base in the
> # world. We were so grateful that we even let them sell us cars, to the
> # great regret of Detroit.
>
> Oh look here's the tock to the other tick..
> Funny that all those alleged "imperialistic ventures" whenever successfull
> always ended up getting rid of dictators and installing democratic countries
> that did well
Yeah, well, Tom Lehrer answered that one, 'way back in the 1960s.
Democracy is when they elect somebody America likes.
Countries that were useful to US plans, like say Taiwan and South
Korea, did nicely, we gave 'em a lot of money. Places not near the
Soviet and Chinese border, like Africa and Latin America, well, it's
another story...
> But to mention minor details that in cases like Korea, the Chinese where
> pushing to North Koreans, to take over Democratic South Korea. The even
> provided troops and equipment. So did the Soviet
Democratic South Korea? Try telling that to a South Korean. Heck,
today's New York Times has a nice expose of "democratic South Korea"
under Syngman Rhee. They rounded up everybody they even *thought* was
a commie in the late '40s, usually wrongly, and held mass executions
as the North Korean liberation forces crossed the borders. Mass graves
all over the country. They finally just now have enough democracy so
that you can have an investigation of this without all the
investigators being thrown into prison forever as North Korean spies.
The official South Korean government commission's report says that
there were *at least* some 4900 corpses found in mass graves, and that
due to lack of cooperation with the investigators, they know that the
actual total is a lot higher, but they don't know by how much.
I betcha think I'm making this up. Well, here's the URL. Read it and
weep.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/27/world/asia/27korea.html?_r=1
Bad as the Kim Il Sung dynasty is, compared to Syngman Rhee and the
old Japanese collaborators that made up his fascistoid dictatorship,
he looked pretty good.
> And we all know what a Socialist heaven North Korea has become..
> It's so successfull that it's the ONLY part of the Asian land mass that
> is COMPLETELY DARK at night.
Well, after the Soviet Union collapsed, nobody would sell them any
fuel, and they don't have any coal or oil. That's why they decided to
go nuclear. The bombs were just a useful side effect that they
realized would make a great bargaining chip. Which it is, with
paranoids like you going ape over it.
> Must be because they'se so green and are trying to avoid global warming
> The same is true for Vietnam. Support from socialist heavens like China and
> the Soviet to convert a democnracy into a socialist heaven
Vietnam is doing pretty good these days all considered, its economy is
going up, while America's is going down. Not as well as the Chinese,
but then nobody is doing as well as the Chinese.
> We all saw the kind of heaven it became after the US (as per the
> Democrats) abandonned South Vietnam
>
> #
> # No imperialism there! Just like Iraq, where the Iraquis welcomed Dubya
> # with flowers, as everybody knows. And Afghanistan.
> #
> # Tom Lehrer wrote a great song about this. Here's a couple verses:
> #
> # "When someone makes a move,
> # Of which we don't approve,
> # Who is it that always intervenes?
> # UN and OAS, they have their place I guess,
> # But first, send the Marines!
>
> Yup
> Sometimes there is a need for the Marines because corrupt and useless bodies
> like the UN are more than willing to sit on their hands and do NOTHING
Ah huh.
>
> #...
> # For might makes right, until they've seen the light,
> # They've got to be protected, all their rights respected, till somebody
> # we like can be elected..."
>
> Sort- of like Saddam was "elected" by the Kuwaitis ?
Why should anybody give a damn about the Kuwaiti slavemasters? Two-
thirds of the population can't vote. Very few of those who do actually
work for a living, they just reap the oil revenue and rape their
female servants from the Philippines. Granted Saddam was no better,
but that's no surprise, he was on the CIA payroll even longer than Bin
Laden was.
> How about those terrorits who elect themselves to kill innocents all over
> the world
Dr. Frankenstein had a monster. The USA has Bin Laden, the
construction contractor for the great CIA base in Afghanistan of "Mr.
Wilson's War," Tora Bora. Wonder why he didn't show up in the movie?
Would have been a great role for a Hollywood star...
-jh-
SaPeIsMa
On Nov 27, 9:13 pm, "SaPeIsMa" <SaPeI...@HotMail.com> wrote:
> "jh" <jhsherl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>...
> #
> # Ah huh. First we nuked 'em and then, when Mao started making trouble,
> # we signed 'em up as junior partners for Korea, Vietnam, and all those
> # other little non-imperialistic ventures the USA killed so many
> # millions of people in, for the benefit of our and Japan's control over
> # everything in the Far East except China. They'd been taught their
> # lesson after all. We supplied the troops, they made out like bandits
> # producing for our war machine. Biogest unsinkable naval base in the
> # world. We were so grateful that we even let them sell us cars, to the
> # great regret of Detroit.
>
> Oh look here's the tock to the other tick..
> Funny that all those alleged "imperialistic ventures" whenever successfull
> always ended up getting rid of dictators and installing democratic
> countries
> that did well
#
# Yeah, well, Tom Lehrer answered that one, 'way back in the 1960s.
# Democracy is when they elect somebody America likes.
#
# Countries that were useful to US plans, like say Taiwan and South
# Korea, did nicely, we gave 'em a lot of money. Places not near the
# Soviet and Chinese border, like Africa and Latin America, well, it's
# another story...
Yup
It's called investing in places where you can expect some kind of
payback
The opposite is just stupid
Apparently you're a great fan of stupidity
> But to mention minor details that in cases like Korea, the Chinese where
> pushing to North Koreans, to take over Democratic South Korea. The even
> provided troops and equipment. So did the Soviet
#
# Democratic South Korea? Try telling that to a South Korean. Heck,
# today's New York Times has a nice expose of "democratic South Korea"
# under Syngman Rhee. They rounded up everybody they even *thought* was
# a commie in the late '40s, usually wrongly, and held mass executions
# as the North Korean liberation forces crossed the borders. Mass graves
# all over the country. They finally just now have enough democracy so
# that you can have an investigation of this without all the
# investigators being thrown into prison forever as North Korean spies.
Democracy is not like pancake mix
Just add water and Voila
In some cases (had you studied history) it takes a while to take and grow
into
Only idiots and dishonest shitheads expect instant success for complex
problems
#
# The official South Korean government commission's report says that
# there were *at least* some 4900 corpses found in mass graves, and that
# due to lack of cooperation with the investigators, they know that the
# actual total is a lot higher, but they don't know by how much.
LOL
Fucking North Korea IS a "mass grave"
ANd considering the things they have done in the past and are doing
currently, it takes idiots and dishonest shitheads to hold them up as a
source of reliable information that's not twisted for propaganda purposes
# I betcha think I'm making this up. Well, here's the URL. Read it and
# weep.
#
# http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/27/world/asia/27korea.html?_r=1
#
#
# Bad as the Kim Il Sung dynasty is, compared to Syngman Rhee and the
# old Japanese collaborators that made up his fascistoid dictatorship,
# he looked pretty good.
Which agains shows that you do belong to the school of idiots and dishonest
shitheads.
You're trying to use stuff that's 50+ years old to denigrate something now ?
Can you say DISHONEST COMPARISON ?
Probably not
It would take a smidgen of intellectual honesty
Somthing you clearly lack
> And we all know what a Socialist heaven North Korea has become..
> It's so successfull that it's the ONLY part of the Asian land mass that
> is COMPLETELY DARK at night.
#
# Well, after the Soviet Union collapsed, nobody would sell them any
# fuel, and they don't have any coal or oil. That's why they decided to
# go nuclear. The bombs were just a useful side effect that they
# realized would make a great bargaining chip. Which it is, with
# paranoids like you going ape over it.
LOL
They were dark before the Sovit collapse
Only idiots and ignorant shitheads ignore past behavior and hope for the
best
But hey, at least you're consistent in your stupidity
> Must be because they'se so green and are trying to avoid global warming
> The same is true for Vietnam. Support from socialist heavens like China
> and
> the Soviet to convert a democnracy into a socialist heaven
> We all saw the kind of heaven it became after the US (as per the
> Democrats) abandonned South Vietnam
>
#
# Vietnam is doing pretty good these days all considered, its economy is
# going up, while America's is going down. Not as well as the Chinese,
# but then nobody is doing as well as the Chinese.
And how many millions got killed and had their lives destroyed by the
Communists after the takeover ?
Apparently that's perfectly justifiable to idiots and ignorant shitheads
> #
> # No imperialism there! Just like Iraq, where the Iraquis welcomed Dubya
> # with flowers, as everybody knows. And Afghanistan.
> #
> # Tom Lehrer wrote a great song about this. Here's a couple verses:
> #
> # "When someone makes a move,
> # Of which we don't approve,
> # Who is it that always intervenes?
> # UN and OAS, they have their place I guess,
> # But first, send the Marines!
>
> Yup
> Sometimes there is a need for the Marines because corrupt and useless
> bodies
> like the UN are more than willing to sit on their hands and do NOTHING
#
# Ah huh.
I'll remind you of that great recent successes of the UN in places like
Rwanda, Kossovo, Somalia
Ah huh indeed
But then more is not to be expected from idiots and ignorant shitheads
>
> #...
> # For might makes right, until they've seen the light,
> # They've got to be protected, all their rights respected, till somebody
> # we like can be elected..."
>
> Sort- of like Saddam was "elected" by the Kuwaitis ?
#
# Why should anybody give a damn about the Kuwaiti slavemasters? Two-
# thirds of the population can't vote. Very few of those who do actually
# work for a living, they just reap the oil revenue and rape their
# female servants from the Philippines. Granted Saddam was no better,
# but that's no surprise, he was on the CIA payroll even longer than Bin
# Laden was.
Thanks for that demonstrated of "adjustable morality on your part"
No surprtise, since it's typical for idiots and ignorant shitheads
> How about those terrorits who elect themselves to kill innocents all over
> the world
#
# Dr. Frankenstein had a monster. The USA has Bin Laden, the
# construction contractor for the great CIA base in Afghanistan of "Mr.
# Wilson's War," Tora Bora. Wonder why he didn't show up in the movie?
# Would have been a great role for a Hollywood star...
Bin Laden the son was a dabbler.
His father was the one who was the construction contractor and made the
money that allowed his playboy son to do what he did
jh
That's what imperialism is. You invest your money in foreign countries
to make a buck on lower wage rates and whatnot. Then you have to have
the military to guard the operation, collect debts and whatnot. That
why Teddy Roosevelt was sending the Marines all over the Caribbean and
Central America, back when US politicians were honest and actually
*called* it imperialism, as Teddy always did.
A Russian named Lenin wrote a great pamphlet about it, a long time
ago. Called "Imperialism." If you want to learn something, you should
read it.
>
> > But to mention minor details that in cases like Korea, the Chinese where
> > pushing to North Koreans, to take over Democratic South Korea. The even
> > provided troops and equipment. So did the Soviet
>
> #
> # Democratic South Korea? Try telling that to a South Korean. Heck,
> # today's New York Times has a nice expose of "democratic South Korea"
> # under Syngman Rhee. They rounded up everybody they even *thought* was
> # a commie in the late '40s, usually wrongly, and held mass executions
> # as the North Korean liberation forces crossed the borders. Mass graves
> # all over the country. They finally just now have enough democracy so
> # that you can have an investigation of this without all the
> # investigators being thrown into prison forever as North Korean spies.
>
> Democracy is not like pancake mix
> Just add water and Voila
> In some cases (had you studied history) it takes a while to take and grow
> into
> Only idiots and dishonest shitheads expect instant success for complex
> problems
Or, as Roosevelt's ambassador to the USSR famously said in the
1930s,. referring to Stalin's agricultural policies which he actually
kinda liked, since the people dying were, as he put it, "only Russians
after all,"
"You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs."
A lot of blood has been spilled by now. And the world economy is just
ducky now, and people are doing just great in Iraq and Afghanistan and
the Congo and all those other places where the USA has cast its
shadow.
>
> #
> # The official South Korean government commission's report says that
> # there were *at least* some 4900 corpses found in mass graves, and that
> # due to lack of cooperation with the investigators, they know that the
> # actual total is a lot higher, but they don't know by how much.
>
> LOL
> Fucking North Korea IS a "mass grave"
> ANd considering the things they have done in the past and are doing
> currently, it takes idiots and dishonest shitheads to hold them up as a
> source of reliable information that's not twisted for propaganda purposes
So you think the New York Times reporters who wrote this story are all
secret North Korean agents? How about Obama, maybe he's not a Kenyan,
but a North Korean Manchurian Candidate? That could explain a lot...
>
> # I betcha think I'm making this up. Well, here's the URL. Read it and
> # weep.
> #
> #http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/27/world/asia/27korea.html?_r=1
> #
> #
> # Bad as the Kim Il Sung dynasty is, compared to Syngman Rhee and the
> # old Japanese collaborators that made up his fascistoid dictatorship,
> # he looked pretty good.
>
> Which agains shows that you do belong to the school of idiots and dishonest
> shitheads.
> You're trying to use stuff that's 50+ years old to denigrate something now ?
> Can you say DISHONEST COMPARISON ?
I guess you go along with Henry Ford's idea that "history is bunk."
This is the least of what is wrong with what you have to say about
Korea, it just happens to be in the news today.
The real reason North Korea is such a mess is that the USA flattened
the place during the Korean War, killing far more people than were
killed in Vietnam. North Korea recovered very nicely until the Soviet
Union collapsed. They were very dependent on the Soviets.
The Kim dynasty did not handle the situation well at all, unlike
Castro, but the mass starvation etc. is basically because of the
embargo on everything Bill Clinton imposed. He did the same thing to
Iraq, and, as everybody forgets, actually *more* people died in Iraq
because of the Clinton embargo than died because of Bush Jr.'s war and
occupation.
> Probably not
> It would take a smidgen of intellectual honesty
> Somthing you clearly lack
>
> > And we all know what a Socialist heaven North Korea has become..
> > It's so successfull that it's the ONLY part of the Asian land mass that
> > is COMPLETELY DARK at night.
>
> #
> # Well, after the Soviet Union collapsed, nobody would sell them any
> # fuel, and they don't have any coal or oil. That's why they decided to
> # go nuclear. The bombs were just a useful side effect that they
> # realized would make a great bargaining chip. Which it is, with
> # paranoids like you going ape over it.
>
> LOL
> They were dark before the Sovit collapse
Wrong. Don't know what the stats were for the eighties, but I do know
that until the late 1970s, the industrial level and GNP per population
were higher in North than in South Korea. And that's not North Korean
stats, it's an uncontroversial fact that everybody knows. You could
look it up if you don't believe me.
> Only idiots and ignorant shitheads ignore past behavior and hope for the
> best
> But hey, at least you're consistent in your stupidity
>
> > Must be because they'se so green and are trying to avoid global warming
> > The same is true for Vietnam. Support from socialist heavens like China
> > and
> > the Soviet to convert a democnracy into a socialist heaven
> > We all saw the kind of heaven it became after the US (as per the
> > Democrats) abandonned South Vietnam
>
> #
> # Vietnam is doing pretty good these days all considered, its economy is
> # going up, while America's is going down. Not as well as the Chinese,
> # but then nobody is doing as well as the Chinese.
>
> And how many millions got killed and had their lives destroyed by the
> Communists after the takeover ?
> Apparently that's perfectly justifiable to idiots and ignorant shitheads
>
You are truly deluded. Milions died in Vietnam all right, from US
bombs. During the war.
Something upwards of a million died in Cambodia under Pol Pot. Ho Chi
Minh put a stop to that, while the US government was supporting Pol
Pot and his butchers-diplomatically with Carter, with guns under
Ronnie Raygun.
I guess Reagan and Carter agreed with Pol Pot on one thing at least,
namely human rights.
Your argument is like that of an arsonist who thinks the fire company
should be prosecuted for murder, because the people in the house
burned to death while the firemen were in there, not him.
>
>
> > #
> > # No imperialism there! Just like Iraq, where the Iraquis welcomed Dubya
> > # with flowers, as everybody knows. And Afghanistan.
> > #
> > # Tom Lehrer wrote a great song about this. Here's a couple verses:
> > #
> > # "When someone makes a move,
> > # Of which we don't approve,
> > # Who is it that always intervenes?
> > # UN and OAS, they have their place I guess,
> > # But first, send the Marines!
>
> > Yup
> > Sometimes there is a need for the Marines because corrupt and useless
> > bodies
> > like the UN are more than willing to sit on their hands and do NOTHING
>
> #
> # Ah huh.
>
> I'll remind you of that great recent successes of the UN in places like
> Rwanda, Kossovo, Somalia
Somalia a success? You're joking, right? Ever read the foreign section
in the newspapers?
Great success in Rwanda? That's a good one. Ten times as many people
have died in the Congolese civil war as died in Rwanda. In fact
current estimates go as high as five million, about as many as died in
the Holocaust. How did it happen? 'Cuz Bill Clinton gave the new
Rwanda government the green light to go into the Congo to chase the
Hutu killers in the bushes. And they proceeded to kill everybody in
sight and turn the whole East Congo into a giant rubber, copper and
whatnot resource extraction empire. Imperialism in action. And
meanwhile fools in the West make movies like "Hotel Rwanda" abut what
nice poeple the new Tutsi government is.
And then there is Kosovo. More Serbs have been ethnically cleansed in
Kosovo than Albanians were cleansed under Milosevic, since that great
victory for Aztec-style "human rites."
You may be right about that, have to check the details. But the
business was all in the family. Tora Bora went from being the CIA base
to being the Al Quaida base without a hitch.
-jh-
nada
>
> read more »
John, about 1964 to 1976 is when S. Korea bypassed N. Korea. N. Korean
industry has fundamentally stagnated since then growing not much.
Stand of living as well increased way faster than N. Korea beginning
in the early 1970s with S. Korea remaining something of a captured
consumer market by Japan.
After Korean finance capital rose to prominence and achieved a sort of
equaliberium based on non-speculative investments, Korea took off just
in time for liberalized export laws in the 1980s pushed by Reagan.
Now of course there is no comparison. In 1987, S. Korean workers had a
higher standard of living than British workers did. To be honest, if I
were a N. Korean, I'd high tail-it the fuck out the DPRK for the south
the in NY minute if I could.
David
macphineas
Which dovetails with the decline of the Soviet Union and the bloc
countries, who had it perhaps even worse economically in the late
Brezhnev years than many capitalist countries. The Soviet bloc was
never unaffected by capitalist crisis after the war, and had a similar
postwar boom-and-bust cycle, culminating in the reactionary 80's
policies of perestroika in practically all Stalinist countries.
Demonstrates the utterly utopian futility of autarky.
As to South Korean growth, similarly to what happened with the US vis-
a-vis Europe and Japan after WWII, Japanese capital began to need an
outlet beyond the domestic market, and found its old colonies, Taiwan
and Korea, fertile ground. They invested enough to eventually create
rival capitalist powers in those countries, just as Japan and Germany
became rivals to the US.
> After Korean finance capital rose to prominence and achieved a sort of
> equaliberium based on non-speculative investments, Korea took off just
> in time for liberalized export laws in the 1980s pushed by Reagan.
>
> Now of course there is no comparison. In 1987, S. Korean workers had a
> higher standard of living than British workers did. To be honest, if I
> were a N. Korean, I'd high tail-it the fuck out the DPRK for the south
> the in NY minute if I could.
>
> David
Similar to the Ossis, which is one reason South Korea is quite
ambivalent about reunification. Everybody living in West Germany
still pays a "solidarity tax," since the German bourgeoisie quickly
found the Poles and Czechs easier to exploit than those covered by
German labor laws, with recourse to the same German courts the
bourgeois themselves rely upon.
macphineas
SaPeIsMa
# That's what imperialism is. You invest your money in foreign countries
# to make a buck on lower wage rates and whatnot.
There you go demonstrating your ignorance again, cvonfusing capitalism with
imperialism
# Then you have to have the military to guard the operation, collect debts
and whatnot.
The only part you got right so far was "whatnot"...
Which is just another word for NOTHING.
rest of your nonsense is not even worth a response
jh
There's an old line among historians: Is the glass half full or half
empty?
That's actually the real difference between your take and mine, I
thought the year the GNP stats lines crossed was 1978, if it was
actually 1976 no big deal.
Heck, fact is standards of living are probably higher in certain US
neocolonies in Latin America now than in Cuba, and maybe living in
Cuba right now is not a great idea (especially if you are a
Trotskyist).
The difference is not that South Korea is nicer than the North, the
difference is that the South is a longtime US ally in the Cold War vs.
China and the USSR, and the North is a totally isolated US target,
getting it in the neck just like Iraq was. I mean, who would have
wanted to line in Saddam's Iraq in the 1990s? Or now for that matter?
-jh-
jh
Thus another defender of capitalism surrenders to the intellectual
forces of radicalism on APST.
Now if we could just have a little more luck in the real world...
-jh-
SaPeIsMa
# Thus another defender of capitalism surrenders to the intellectual
# forces of radicalism on APST.
#
LOL
Surrender my ass
It's just not worth going around demonstrating that your drivel is drivel
Oh wait, you trostkyiste like to roll in the pig-shit
#
# Now if we could just have a little more luck in the real world...
Well considering that Trotsky ended up with an axe in the head.
Be careful not to follow your hero too closely.
macphineas
So, having run out of political ammunition with which to fight, you
begin hurling feces and idle threats, which you hope will slow the
relentless charge of rational discourse already worming its way into
your addled brain. It must be tortuous, having your entire world-view
eviscerated before your very eyes...
macphineas
SaPeIsMa
"macphineas" <macph...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:eb12aa2e-0a8e-4cb5...@u25g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
# So, having run out of political ammunition with which to fight, you
# begin hurling feces and idle threats, which you hope will slow the
# relentless charge of rational discourse already worming its way into
# your addled brain. It must be tortuous, having your entire world-view
# eviscerated before your very eyes...
The only threat here is the product of your paranoia
But if that's what you need to weasel away
Go for it.
macphineas
> "macphineas" <macphine...@gmail.com> wrote in message
And the mind has now been blown. Unable to accept that, contrary to
the daily barrage of propaganda that has molded his political opinions
so far in life, the US is indeed a predatory imperialist power, Mr.
Conservative types gibberish onto his computer screen, a last vain
attempt to unsee what has already been seen, to crawl back into the
warmth of the lies he has happily been spoon-fed his entire
life...What did you do the day you found out there was no God to save
your eternal soul?
macphineas
zzbu...@netscape.net
> The Four Forces Pushing For War With Iran
>
> By James Miller
>
> 1 - ISRAEL AND AMERICAN POLITICIANS BOUGHT OFF BY THE ISRAEL LOBBY
> The Israel Lobby (AIPAC) is working overtime to get dumb Americans to fight
> another war on its behalf. Politicians who call Israel out (like Ron Paul)
> are accused of "anti-Semitism" (pardon me while I vomit). Never forget that
> the Israel Lobby runs U.S. foreign policy.
> 2 - NEOCON GLOBAL IMPERIALISTS
> The NEOCON goal is simply to expand the American empire. Controlling Iran is
> yet another step towards controlling the Middle East. Forty percent of the
> world's energy comes from Middle East oil. Thus if one can control the
> Middle East, one can control forty percent of the world's energy supply.
> Controlling Middle East oil means you can control much of the global
> economy.
Well, when the only thing you even know about economics from the
start is China,
that's a given, no matter how much oil you control. So, that's why
the idiots are
always referred to China for a job, rather than people with post
Fox News Brains.
SaPeIsMa
# And the mind has now been blown. Unable to accept that, contrary to
# the daily barrage of propaganda that has molded his political opinions
# so far in life, the US is indeed a predatory imperialist power, Mr.
# Conservative types gibberish onto his computer screen, a last vain
# attempt to unsee what has already been seen, to crawl back into the
# warmth of the lies he has happily been spoon-fed his entire
# life...What did you do the day you found out there was no God to save
# your eternal soul?
The only one "gibbering" here is you, dumbo
Too bad that projection is sign of mental ilness
Get some help