Re: Palin/Dobbs 2012
Beam Me Up Scotty
>
>>
>> What story is that? Do you believe that government has, as its
>> objective, to dictate the incomes of its citizens?
>>
>> I'd disagree. That's more of a Soviet notion than one to be found in a
>> free society. Are you a communist?
>>
>> JG
>>
> I am an socialist libertarian. High taxes were supposed to be used to
> prevent a permanent aristocracy, while benefiting society in general.
> That is a concept from our Founders (who were way smarter than Ayn Rand.)
That is not Libertarian, Libertarians believe that individuals seeking
their own best interest, will also benefit society in general.
Government will seek to benefit the government, so high taxes will
benefit the government that is spending that tax for their own best
interest.
dave
I didn't say I agree with the Founders' concept of stifling inherited
wealth and preventing blood dynasties because I am a libertarian.
Libertarian just means favoring less government (and hierarchical
power trips in general). In a fascist state like the one we have now,
government and business are one, so to bring down either, you have to
kill them both.
I consider libertarian socialism as an ideal or Utopian concept, that
will never again be fully achieved. But it's a great camera platform
for my perspective and it helps to clarify the absurdity of what passes
for civilization today.
Beam Me Up Scotty
> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>> dave wrote:
>>>> What story is that? Do you believe that government has, as its
>>>> objective, to dictate the incomes of its citizens?
>>>>
>>>> I'd disagree. That's more of a Soviet notion than one to be found in a
>>>> free society. Are you a communist?
>>>>
>>>> JG
>>>>
>>> I am an socialist libertarian. High taxes were supposed to be used to
>>> prevent a permanent aristocracy, while benefiting society in general.
>>> That is a concept from our Founders (who were way smarter than Ayn
>>> Rand.)
>>
>> That is not Libertarian, Libertarians believe that individuals seeking
>> their own best interest, will also benefit society in general.
>>
>> Government will seek to benefit the government, so high taxes will
>> benefit the government that is spending that tax for their own best
>> interest.
>
> I didn't say I agree with the Founders' concept of stifling inherited
> wealth and preventing blood dynasties because I am a libertarian.
>
> Libertarian just means favoring less government (and hierarchical power
Libertarianism results in less government because of it's belief in
individual rights....
It's not libertarianism that means less government, it's the beliefs
that they follow that mean more freedom, and that results in less
government intrusions.
> trips in general). In a fascist state like the one we have now,
> government and business are one, so to bring down either, you have to
> kill them both.
Government over regulates and is causing us all problems such as high
unemployment and mortgage failures where government interferes it
creates problems, the more government interferes the more problems we have.
> I consider libertarian socialism as an ideal or Utopian concept, that
It's an Oxymoron
> will never again be fully achieved. But it's a great camera platform
Freedom is Libertarian, and it may be gone for ever, Socialism has never
worked and was extinct before it ever lived.
> for my perspective and it helps to clarify the absurdity of what passes
> for civilization today.
It is as absurd as todays civilization...
Government is taking freedoms, every freedom taken away is a step away
from freedom and a step away from Libertarianism.
I can't see Libertarians connected to socialism, they seem to be polar
opposites.
I can follow Democrat to Liberal to Socialist to Marxist to fascist to
Communist.
I can see Anarchist to Libertarian
--
Jerry Okamura
"dave" <da...@dave.dave> wrote in message
news:4afeb5b6$0$28784$bd46...@news.dslextreme.com...
> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>> dave wrote:
>>>> What story is that? Do you believe that government has, as its
>>>> objective, to dictate the incomes of its citizens?
>>>>
>>>> I'd disagree. That's more of a Soviet notion than one to be found in a
>>>> free society. Are you a communist?
>>>>
>>>> JG
>>>>
>>> I am an socialist libertarian. High taxes were supposed to be used to
>>> prevent a permanent aristocracy, while benefiting society in general.
>>> That is a concept from our Founders (who were way smarter than Ayn
>>> Rand.)
>>
>> That is not Libertarian, Libertarians believe that individuals seeking
>> their own best interest, will also benefit society in general.
>>
>> Government will seek to benefit the government, so high taxes will
>> benefit the government that is spending that tax for their own best
>> interest.
>
> I didn't say I agree with the Founders' concept of stifling inherited
> wealth and preventing blood dynasties because I am a libertarian.
"If" our Founders believed that, it would have been in the Constituion that
they wrote. It is "not" in our Consitution.
dave
>
> Freedom is Libertarian, and it may be gone for ever, Socialism has never
> worked and was extinct before it ever lived.
>
What? Don't tell the Europeans.
Beam Me Up Scotty
Europe has been relying on the USA to generate the wealth to keep Europe
free for the last 70 years.
We made their Socialism work, as we fail so shall their Socialism.
--
John Galt
Why not? They're not socialist. They're social democracies.
HUGE difference.
JG
I M @ good guy
Sure, maybe they can vote to end the high sales tax.
dave
"...modern social democracy has deviated from socialism, and supports
the idea of a mixed economy which incorporates elements of both
socialism and capitalism.[2] Social democrats aim to reform capitalism
democratically through state regulation and the creation of programs
that work to counteract or remove the social injustice and
inefficiencies they see as inherent in capitalism. A product of this
effort has been the modern democratic welfare state. This approach
significantly differs from traditional socialism, which aims to replace
the capitalist system entirely with a new economic system characterized
by either state or direct worker ownership of the means of production.
In many countries, social democrats continue to exist alongside
democratic socialists, who stand to the left of them on the political
spectrum. The two movements sometimes operate within the same political
party, such as the Brazilian Workers' Party[3] and the French Socialist
Party. In recent years, several social democratic parties (in
particular, the British Labour Party) have embraced more centrist, Third
Way policy positions. This development has generated considerable
controversy..."
Strabo
With regards to the Constitution, you should use "Framers" instead of
"Founders". The "Founders" brought about the separation from England
and established the nation under the Articles of Confederation.
The Constitution is a federalist document. The Constitution was designed
and promoted by the "Framers". Yes, a few "Founders" were involved but
reluctantly. The "Founders" did not approve of federalism.
Jerry Okamura
"Strabo" <str...@flashlight.net> wrote in message
news:DVGLm.29054$X01....@newsfe07.iad...
Which has what to do with what I said about it not being in the
Constitution?
Beam Me Up Scotty
Do you think the Europeans will decide to defend themselves and pay for
their Socialism?
How will that work? They barely have any economy as it is... Add in
the 20% it will cost to keep a real army and they will be pushing 95%
taxes for the average worker. It will also drop their GDP to a -19.5% GDP.
--
John Galt
And they do. Various countries have lowered the VAT over the last few
years in response to the economic downturn.
The also mess with the income tax rates. 25 years ago, I was writing
compensation plans for sales reps in Sweden. The challenge was how to
compensate high wage earners in a country where the government was going
to take 93% of what I paid them above a certain point. So, you paid them
with perks that the goverment doesn't tax: a better company car, fully
paid for vacations, etc.
Now, the highest income tax rate in Sweden is 57%. Big difference.
JG
>
>
>
>
>
>
John Galt
Correct. However, the core difference is that social democrats recognize
that government ownership of the means of production is, at its core,
counterproductive to a prosperous society. (Even though they may very
well own certain productive processes deemed essential to society, they
do so not because they think they can improve their efficiency, but
because they feel it necessary to prioritize the process differenly than
the free market would allot.)
Socialists refuse to recognize this.
JG
John Galt
> John Galt wrote:
>> dave wrote:
>>> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>>>
>>>> Freedom is Libertarian, and it may be gone for ever, Socialism has never
>>>> worked and was extinct before it ever lived.
>>>>
>>> What? Don't tell the Europeans.
>> Why not? They're not socialist. They're social democracies.
>>
>> HUGE difference.
>>
>> JG
>>
>
>
> Do you think the Europeans will decide to defend themselves and pay for
> their Socialism?
Eventually, yes. The younger generation in Europe is much more concerned
about fiscal responsibility (and sustainable social welfare systems)
than their parents are.
It would of course help if the US would grow a pair and tell them that
they're no longer going to contribute substantially to NATO.
>
> How will that work? They barely have any economy as it is... Add in
> the 20% it will cost to keep a real army and they will be pushing 95%
> taxes for the average worker. It will also drop their GDP to a -19.5% GDP.
They've created a generational mess. It will take them time to work out
of it.
JG
RHF
> On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:50:00 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
>
> <Then-Destroy-Everyth...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>
> >Europe has been relying on the USA to generate the wealth to keep Europe
> >free for the last 70 years.
>
> >We made their Socialism work, as we fail so shall their Socialism.
>
- You wouldn't know a socialist if one kicked you.
Goose Stepping is a good indication . . .
http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/uniforms2/goose-step.jpg
National "Socialist" German Worker's Party (NSDAP)
-aka- The NAZIs
.
RHF
> John Galt wrote:
> > dave wrote:
> >> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>
> >>> Freedom is Libertarian, and it may be gone for ever, Socialism has never
> >>> worked and was extinct before it ever lived.
>
> >> What? Don't tell the Europeans.
>
> > Why not? They're not socialist. They're social democracies.
>
> > HUGE difference.
>
> > JG
>
> "...modern social democracy has deviated from socialism, and supports
> the idea of a mixed economy which incorporates elements of both
> socialism and capitalism.[2] Social democrats aim to reform capitalism
> democratically through state regulation and the creation of programs
> that work to counteract or remove the social injustice and
> inefficiencies they see as inherent in capitalism. A product of this
> effort has been the modern democratic welfare state. This approach
> significantly differs from traditional socialism, which aims to replace
> the capitalist system entirely with a new economic system characterized
> by either state or direct worker ownership of the means of production.
- In many countries, social democrats continue to exist alongside
- democratic socialists, who stand to the left of them on the
political
- spectrum. The two movements sometimes operate within the same
political
- party, such as the Brazilian Workers' Party[3] and the French
Socialist
- Party. In recent years, several social democratic parties (in
- particular, the British Labour Party) have embraced more centrist,
Third
- Way policy positions. This development has generated considerable
- controversy..."
-source-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
.
RHF
recognize
- that government ownership of the means of production is, at its
core,
- counterproductive to a prosperous society. (Even though they may
very
- well own certain productive processes deemed essential to society,
they
- do so not because they think they can improve their efficiency, but
- because they feel it necessary to prioritize the process differenly
than
- the free market would allot.)
-
- Socialists refuse to recognize this.
-
- JG
Sort of like a Government Enterprise being Taxed
by the very same Government.
Imagine -if- the IRS had to Pay a Corporate Income
Tax on the Income Taxes that it Collected from
the Tax Payers.
Tax Payers = Share Holders in the Government.
Then imagine the IRS Paying a Dividend to the
American Tax Payers for the Taxes that they
had Paid from the Taxes that the IRS had Paid
on those very same Taxes.
Hey Socialism can Create Money Through
Taxes-On-Taxes with no external inputs.
what goes around comes around ~ RHF
.
RHF
The Europeans do not have the Will and the
Capital to Fully Defend themselves on their
own.
Once the USA is Bankrupt in the next Decade
and can no longer support it's Military and resigns
as a Global Peacekeeper: The Europeans will be
at the 'mercy' of Russia, China, India and OPEC.
USA is Bankruptcy will happen when the US Dollar
is Devaluated to 20~25 Cents on the Dollar if 'we'
Americans are Lucky -or- to 5~10 Cents on the
Dollar if 'we' Americans are Unlucky.
~ RHF
.
dave
dave
>> GDP.
>
> They've created a generational mess. It will take them time to work out
> of it.
>
> JG
You apparently live in a parallel universe. May I ask where you get
your news from?
John Galt
I travel extensively for work in Europe, talk just as extensively about
these issues to my colleagues, and have relatives who live and work in
Belgium, Germany, Sweden, The Netherlands, Austria, and Italy.
So, the answer to your question is "I go there and talk to people who
live there", which is always advantageous to really understanding what
is happening on the ground, considering the challenged and adversarial
nature of much of the European media.
I would suggest that if you DON'T go there and talk to people, and
instead rely on the european and US media, you are going to be a bit
challenged in your understanding of european issues.
JG
dave
> dave wrote:
>>
>> You apparently live in a parallel universe. May I ask where you get
>> your news from?
>
> I travel extensively for work in Europe, talk just as extensively about
> these issues to my colleagues, and have relatives who live and work in
> Belgium, Germany, Sweden, The Netherlands, Austria, and Italy.
>
> So, the answer to your question is "I go there and talk to people who
> live there", which is always advantageous to really understanding what
> is happening on the ground, considering the challenged and adversarial
> nature of much of the European media.
>
> I would suggest that if you DON'T go there and talk to people, and
> instead rely on the european and US media, you are going to be a bit
> challenged in your understanding of european issues.
>
> JG
>
So you don't have any news provider of record to rely upon? I would
feel really lost in such a situation. Adrift even.
Beam Me Up Scotty
But the government has to print the money.....
> what goes around comes around ~ RHF
> .
--
Beam Me Up Scotty
> On Nov 14, 3:36 pm, smor...@board.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:50:00 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
>>
>> <Then-Destroy-Everyth...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Europe has been relying on the USA to generate the wealth to keep Europe
>>> free for the last 70 years.
>>> We made their Socialism work, as we fail so shall their Socialism.
>> You dingbat
>
> - You wouldn't know a socialist if one kicked you.
>
Like we paid for the military security of Europe and Europe decided to
give their people government health care, soon they'll be paying for
their own military and their own health care.
We will be in the toilet and Europe will get no subsidy to prop up their
Socialist systems.
Obama will bankrupt America and by doing so he will bankrupt the entire
Socialist world we supported.
--
Beam Me Up Scotty
> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>> John Galt wrote:
>>> dave wrote:
>>>> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Freedom is Libertarian, and it may be gone for ever, Socialism has
>>>>> never
>>>>> worked and was extinct before it ever lived.
>>>>>
>>>> What? Don't tell the Europeans.
>>> Why not? They're not socialist. They're social democracies.
>>>
>>> HUGE difference.
>>>
>>> JG
>>>
>>
>>
>> Do you think the Europeans will decide to defend themselves and pay for
>> their Socialism?
>
> Eventually, yes. The younger generation in Europe is much more concerned
> about fiscal responsibility (and sustainable social welfare systems)
> than their parents are.
>
Oxymoron: "sustainable Social welfare"
> It would of course help if the US would grow a pair and tell them that
> they're no longer going to contribute substantially to NATO.
NATO the UN, World bank and S. KOREA Sending our "industry" abroad
and now the redistrobution of our last income producing industry of
health care.
The Progressives have run every other industry from our shores with
government intrusion into the free markets and taxes.
>>
>> How will that work? They barely have any economy as it is... Add in
>> the 20% it will cost to keep a real army and they will be pushing 95%
>> taxes for the average worker. It will also drop their GDP to a -19.5%
>> GDP.
>
> They've created a generational mess. It will take them time to work out
> of it.
>
It will mean Depression until they retool for capitalism. You can't
spend others money when they no longer have any. At that point you get
depression and it will linger for decades.
> JG
--
BDK
ac37b5...@h14g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, rhf-new...@pacbell.net
says...
BWHAHAHA! That's funny, unless you were serious, and I would bet you
are.
--
BDK..
Leader of the nonexistent paid shills.
Non Jew Jew Club founding member.
Former number one Kook Magnet, title passed to Iarnrod.
Michael Coburn
The "federalists" of the 1780's were actually the "unionists". If the
English language is held to account the "anti-federalist" were the true
defenders of the federation described in the "Articles of Confederation"
and the so called "federlists" were the "unionists". By adopting the
moniker of "federalist" these unionists left the true federalist with a
serious political problem and forced them to the defensive posture of
being against something as opposed to _for_ something. They became the
"anti-federalists". It is much the same thing with the "National
Socialist German Workers Party".
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html
The movement led by the "National Socialist German Worker's Party" was
fascist just as the movement of the federalists was actually unionist and
the opposite of true federalism. Ain't politics grand?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party
--
"Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson
Michael Coburn
The rightarded refuse to understand that government is simply NOT a
business. Government is not supposed to make a profit and it is not
actually advisable for government to operate without _SMALL_ deficits.
Beam Me Up Scotty
GDP
0.9% (2008 est.)
country comparison to the world: 181
3% (2007 est.)
3.4% (2006 est.)
Expect as they use their GDP for military that it will fall and it is
generally within the margin of error so it will be flat to negative GDP.
--
dave
>
>
> Expect as they use their GDP for military that it will fall and it is
> generally within the margin of error so it will be flat to negative GDP.
>
This entry gives the gross domestic product (GDP) or value of all final
goods and services produced within a nation in a given year. A nation's
GDP at purchasing power parity (PPP) exchange rates is the sum value of
all goods and services produced in the country valued at prices
prevailing in the United States. This is the measure most economists
prefer when looking at per-capita welfare and when comparing living
conditions or use of resources across countries. The measure is
difficult to compute, as a US dollar value has to be assigned to all
goods and services in the country regardless of whether these goods and
services have a direct equivalent in the United States (for example, the
value of an ox-cart or non-US military equipment); as a result, PPP
estimates for some countries are based on a small and sometimes
different set of goods and services. In addition, many countries do not
formally participate in the World Bank's PPP project that calculates
these measures, so the resulting GDP estimates for these countries may
lack precision. For many developing countries, PPP-based GDP measures
are multiples of the official exchange rate (OER) measure. The
differences between the OER- and PPP-denominated GDP values for most of
the wealthy industrialized countries are generally much smaller.
Download Data
European Union :: 1
Rank
country GDP (purchasing power parity) Date of Information
1 European Union
$ 14,940,000,000,000
2008 est.
2 United States
$ 14,440,000,000,000
2008 est.
3 China
$ 7,992,000,000,000
2008 est.
4 Japan
$ 4,340,000,000,000
2008 est.
5 India
$ 3,304,000,000,000
2008 est.
I M @ good guy
Gee, which part only has 7,000 income per capita?
John Galt
That would be you, then.
JG
John Galt
> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 04:49:06 -0600, John Galt
> <kad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It would of course help if the US would grow a pair and tell them that
>> they're no longer going to contribute substantially to NATO.
>
Underline "was".
JG
John Galt
> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:11:14 -0600, John Galt
> <kad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> You apparently live in a parallel universe. May I ask where you get
>>> your news from?
>> I travel extensively for work in Europe, talk just as extensively about
>> these issues to my colleagues, and have relatives who live and work in
>> Belgium, Germany, Sweden, The Netherlands, Austria, and Italy.
>
>
> Anecdotal evidence
>
> How quaint
Nothing anecdotal about it, child.
My own nephew is now back at work because Sweden reclassified his
particular physical problem from "disability" to "able-bodied" as part
of the government's pullback of covered benefits of their social welfer
system. You can quite easily get a list of such things that are no
longer covered if you care to do some research. Same thing for the
Netherlands and Germany (at least) which have also pulled back on
coverage in their systems.
Simply because the fact is transmitted word-of-mouth rather than in a
media outlet does not render it unfactual.
Now, back to your trailer park. You're obviously one of those Americans
who doesn't have a passport, but considers themselves an expert on world
affairs.
JG
John Galt
> John Galt wrote:
>> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>> dave wrote:
>>>>> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Freedom is Libertarian, and it may be gone for ever, Socialism has
>>>>>> never
>>>>>> worked and was extinct before it ever lived.
>>>>>>
>>>>> What? Don't tell the Europeans.
>>>> Why not? They're not socialist. They're social democracies.
>>>>
>>>> HUGE difference.
>>>>
>>>> JG
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do you think the Europeans will decide to defend themselves and pay for
>>> their Socialism?
>> Eventually, yes. The younger generation in Europe is much more concerned
>> about fiscal responsibility (and sustainable social welfare systems)
>> than their parents are.
>>
>
> Oxymoron: "sustainable Social welfare"
No. You can do social welfare sustainably. That's just arithmetic.
Whether it's wise or not is another matter entirely.
>
>> It would of course help if the US would grow a pair and tell them that
>> they're no longer going to contribute substantially to NATO.
>
> NATO the UN, World bank and S. KOREA Sending our "industry" abroad
> and now the redistrobution of our last income producing industry of
> health care.
>
> The Progressives have run every other industry from our shores with
> government intrusion into the free markets and taxes.
I don't think it has anything to do with the "progressives". It's just
capital moving around the globe looking for the highest level of
efficiency. We're a along way away from taxation being a major driver of
that move, although it may come to that.
>
>>> How will that work? They barely have any economy as it is... Add in
>>> the 20% it will cost to keep a real army and they will be pushing 95%
>>> taxes for the average worker. It will also drop their GDP to a -19.5%
>>> GDP.
>> They've created a generational mess. It will take them time to work out
>> of it.
>>
>
> It will mean Depression until they retool for capitalism. You can't
> spend others money when they no longer have any. At that point you get
> depression and it will linger for decades.
It's definitely going to be a long hard slug for them.
JG
>
>
>> JG
>
Brenda Ann
<smo...@board.com> wrote in message
news:5d80g5td4pueo1s0e...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:15:02 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
> <Then-Destro...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>
>>Do you think the Europeans will decide to defend themselves and pay for
>>their Socialism?
>
>
>>How will that work? They barely have any economy as it is...
>
My question would be, if they "barely have any economy..." then why is it
that the Euro, which started out on par with the $US, is now worth half
again as much as said $US?
John Galt
The first is that the Euro doesn't dilute easily, since individual
countries can't be tempted (as we are) to print money to solve their
problems. This is why some countries (Italy and Greece, mostly, but it
came up in Germany as well) were talking about dropping the Euro for
their traditional currencies so they could dilute their way out of some
of their financial problems.
The second is that Europe has a very large developing market (Eastern
Europe) component, and the currencies of developing markets are doing
very well right now. So, if you want to speculate on rapid growth in
Romania, you'd do it with the Euro.
The third is that the European central bank has one mission alone, and
that's price stability. So, they're inflation hawks. The Fed has two
missions which work counter to one another, which is price stability and
employment. So, the Fed has to balance the two, and that means that it's
a lot more difficult to guess wheither they'll tighten or ease at any
given juncture. Investors tend to avoid ambiguity.
All three probably play into it, and their may be more factors as well.
JG
Both theories probably have some truth
Brenda Ann
"Michael Coburn" <mik...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:hdpk2...@news2.newsguy.com...
In much the same vein as the more times the name of a country uses the words
"democratic", "peoples", "free", "republic", etc. in their name, the more
despotic they actually are.
I M @ good guy
The very reason for the euro was to get rid of so
much US currency being used in Europe, it gave some
people in some countries a more stable currency for
certain purchases.
For instance, I sold some toy cars (slot cars) to
people in several countries, and they all said they
would just go to the train station and get dollars
to send me (before the euro).
When the euro came out, it made the dollars
in circulation there no longer needed, so those
selling the dollars they had caused a small effect
on the exchange rate.
And since that time, some effort by the US
treasury was made to weaken the dollar against
some currencies.
The euro is pretty much an exception, few
currencies have gained against the dollar, but
many should because the exchange rate is not
good for them.
The US has about the same GDP as the EU,
and about the same exports, but the EU has a
big advantage in ground shipping to many
markets.
The fact that Britain and Norway are/were
oil exporters makes a difference too, export-
import traffic can have a big effect on exchange
rates. Money market speculation can go in
either direction, but it was natural for the
dollars existing in Europe being sold would
have an effect.
More than half of all US currency circulates
outside the US, the Federal Reserve Bank of
New York in NYC has a huge warehouse which
services all the overseas banks that ask for
US currency, it would seem natural for those
countries close to Europe would change from
using dollars to using euros also.
And most countries in Europe may have
about the same debt to GDP as the US, a
difference in exchange rates of 40 or 50
percent is small compared to many other
countries.
In the last 50 years or so the English
Pound Sterling has fallen from $4 + as I
recall down below what it is now, about $2.
There is a lot of unemployment most
places now, and the more money governments
borrow, the worse that can get, taxes take
money out of the economy, and borrowing
by the government is even worse.
That may erode the dollar even more,
what is surprising is that very few items
from Europe are in US stores, everything
is junk from China, the glass in the picture
frames breaks too easy, with electronics
being of better quality.
The only thing that I have ever bought
made in Europe was Norelco razors.
It is possible the Euro will gain against
all currencies.
dave
> Simply because the fact is transmitted word-of-mouth rather than in a
> media outlet does not render it unfactual.
Just unreliable.
> Now, back to your trailer park. You're obviously one of those Americans
> who doesn't have a passport, but considers themselves an expert on world
> affairs.
>
One doesn't need to be an expert to aspire to objective analysis.
John Galt
> John Galt wrote:
>
>> Simply because the fact is transmitted word-of-mouth rather than in a
>> media outlet does not render it unfactual.
>
> Just unreliable.
Not as far as reasonable people are concerned, which would not be you.
The best way to find out what's going on anywhere is to go there, be
there for awhile, and talk to people. There's no such thing as an
unbiased observer of anything, including in the media. So, you have to
be there and gather some data.
>
>> Now, back to your trailer park. You're obviously one of those
>> Americans who doesn't have a passport, but considers themselves an
>> expert on world affairs.
>>
>
> One doesn't need to be an expert to aspire to objective analysis.
Then get on a fucking plane and rectify your lack of knowledge. But,
it's certainly not any secret that the European programs are
unsustainable. Books have been written about for years. It's
demographics and a little arithmetic. Pretty simple.
JG
Beam Me Up Scotty
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:22:16 +0900, "Brenda Ann"
> <newsg...@fullspectrumradio.org> wrote:
>
>> <smo...@board.com> wrote in message
>> news:5d80g5td4pueo1s0e...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:15:02 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
>>> <Then-Destro...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you think the Europeans will decide to defend themselves and pay for
>>>> their Socialism?
>>> They do pay. They vote in those policies
>>>
>>>> How will that work? They barely have any economy as it is...
>> My question would be, if they "barely have any economy..." then why is it
>> that the Euro, which started out on par with the $US, is now worth half
>> again as much as said $US?
Because we are paying for European/Japan/Korean/Israel security and the
UN and NATO and European/Japan pay for health care.....
Our dollar is crashing because of our attempt to have it all, Socialist
health care and economy, and pay for the security of all the rest.
We will print and print and print until the dollar is destroyed in an
attempt to become Socialists that keep security for half the world.
--
John Galt
> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 23:31:10 -0600, John Galt
> <kad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> How quaint
>> Nothing anecdotal about it, child.
>>
>> My own nephew is now back at work because Sweden reclassified his
>> particular physical problem from "disability" to "able-bodied" as part
>> of the government's pullback of covered benefits of their social welfer
>> system.
>
>
It is a first hand account, and as such, is beyond contestation.
Apparently if you were in the jury on a murder trial, you'd discount the
eyewitnesses and try and Google up material to base your decision on.
JG
Beam Me Up Scotty
Brenda Ann wrote:
> <smo...@board.com> wrote in message
> news:5d80g5td4pueo1s0e...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:15:02 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
>> <Then-Destro...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Do you think the Europeans will decide to defend themselves and pay for
>>> their Socialism?
>> They do pay. They vote in those policies
Right, that's why the U.S. pays for the bulk of NATO and the UN and we
have troops in Germany and Japan, Korea, Columbia, Haiti.... and all
around where the Nations have little to no military defence like Nuclear
Submarines.
While Germany and Japan, Denmark, Sweden and all the others vote to
waste money on Socialized health care and social welfare programs. They
don't vote to spend to protect themselves(or pay us for the privilege)
and instead let us subsidize their security.
We send Billions to Africa in health care and military aid....
Can all those places pay for their own security *and* support their huge
government social welfare states?
Their Socialism will crash and burn if we withdraw from the roll of
*sugar-daddy* and we will crash if we continue towards socialism, there
has to be a capitalist engine to fund and subsidize all the socialism.
--
John Galt
Of course you can. Just that my nephew's condition (which is a mild
scoliosis) was not affected by the Swedish social security reforms of 2008.
You're just cynical and lazy. Neither of those are my problem. They're
yours.
JG
>
> Based on your "evidence", If on a jury, I'd scoff.
>
Beam Me Up Scotty
> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>> John Galt wrote:
>>> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>>> dave wrote:
>>>>>> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Freedom is Libertarian, and it may be gone for ever, Socialism has
>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>> worked and was extinct before it ever lived.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> What? Don't tell the Europeans.
>>>>> Why not? They're not socialist. They're social democracies.
>>>>>
>>>>> HUGE difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> JG
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you think the Europeans will decide to defend themselves and pay for
>>>> their Socialism?
>>> Eventually, yes. The younger generation in Europe is much more concerned
>>> about fiscal responsibility (and sustainable social welfare systems)
>>> than their parents are.
>>>
>>
>> Oxymoron: "sustainable Social welfare"
>
> No. You can do social welfare sustainably. That's just arithmetic.
Social security and Medicare....
> Whether it's wise or not is another matter entirely.
Eventually all the money will be spent and it is no longer sustainable
and cuts must be made.... that's unsustainable.
There is no practical way to indefinitely redistribute wealth,
eventually there is no wealth to distribute, the
*law-of-diminishing-returns* .
--
Beam Me Up Scotty
NATO was and is in the interest of subsidizing European military power.
We subsidize them not the other way around. We can't afford out dated
military programs.
--
Clairbear
news:aJeMm.225678$Jp1....@en-nntp-06.dc1.easynews.com:
John this loon has been attacking others with the same attempts a trivials
thruthes
I wouls say he should change his nymto smore gasbag with all the smoke he
blows at everyone
I wish you and you nephew welland hope his work goes well and causes him no
problems or discomforts
Clairbear
John Galt
> John Galt wrote:
>> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>>>>> John Galt wrote:
>>>>>> dave wrote:
>>>>>>> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Freedom is Libertarian, and it may be gone for ever, Socialism has
>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>> worked and was extinct before it ever lived.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What? Don't tell the Europeans.
>>>>>> Why not? They're not socialist. They're social democracies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HUGE difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JG
>>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think the Europeans will decide to defend themselves and pay for
>>>>> their Socialism?
>>>> Eventually, yes. The younger generation in Europe is much more concerned
>>>> about fiscal responsibility (and sustainable social welfare systems)
>>>> than their parents are.
>>>>
>>> Oxymoron: "sustainable Social welfare"
>> No. You can do social welfare sustainably. That's just arithmetic.
>
> Social security and Medicare....
Doesn't mean it can't be done. Lift the payroll tax cap, raise the
retirement age to 70, and change the way the COLA is calcuated and
you've got SS' funding mechanism fixed. Medicare is harder, and probably
will have to be reformed to being a high-deductable plan OR experience a
significant (400%?) increase in its payroll tax.
It's just arithmetic.
>
>> Whether it's wise or not is another matter entirely.
>
>
> Eventually all the money will be spent and it is no longer sustainable
> and cuts must be made.... that's unsustainable.
>
> There is no practical way to indefinitely redistribute wealth,
> eventually there is no wealth to distribute, the
> *law-of-diminishing-returns* .
Yet it must occur. Adam Smith was correct, in my view, when he noted
that without redistribution, you'll eventually return to a feudal society.
Conservative economics acknowledges the need for redistributive mechanisms.
JG
>
>
Beam Me Up Scotty
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:26:39 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
> <Then-Destro...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>
>> We send Billions to Africa in health care and military aid....
>>
>> Can all those places pay for their own security *and* support their huge
>> government social welfare states?
>
> foriegn aid---probably found on any government or
> private site.
>
> As I believe I've heard---we spend less of our GNP on
> foriegn aid that a lot of the industrial nations
> do--amounting to (I believe) less than 1%
We are at a tipping point 1% may put us into bankruptcy... then there is
the 20% of GDP health care. The 20% home ownership that is be
subsidized, the auto markets(Unions) that are subsidized.
Foreign Aid is worthless to us if we can't afford it and Obama has spent
till we can no longer afford it.
--
Beam Me Up Scotty
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:00:28 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
> <Then-Destro...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>
>> Our dollar is crashing because of our attempt to have it all, Socialist
>> health care and economy, and pay for the security of all the rest.
>
> the deregulation (absence of government) in the runaway
> escalation of profit and greed over that of the welfare
> of the United States.
>
> The economy was Trashed by Bush and GOP in their failed
> policy,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs
> The security of America was jepoardized by republicans
> for unleashing a lying, deserting sack of shit on the
> world and support the bastard.
>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr1M1T2Y314
--
Beam Me Up Scotty
Change your name, you are not akin to John Galt's philosophy.
Government Redistribution is not a tenet of capitalism, it occurs
naturally in capitalism as the markets change, that constant change in
markets does in the background what you say must be done by government
manually.....
It is government regulations that prevents failure and competition that
stifle capitalism from doing what it naturally does when shifting
markets, and also shifting assets and profits.
Were Bill Gates or Warren Buffett born Billionaires?
--
John Galt
Rubbish. Galt's concern was on intellectual capital protection and
egregious theft of personal wealth. As a capitalist, we can logically
infer that he wanted capitalism to succeed, not fail. Capitalism fails
without some sort of way to insure that all the lucre doesn't end up in
the hands of 1% of the society.
>
> Government Redistribution is not a tenet of capitalism,
Nobody said that it was. I said that there needs to be a redistributive
mechanism. You're the one who inserted the government into the process.
it occurs
> naturally in capitalism as the markets change, that constant change in
> markets does in the background what you say must be done by government
> manually.....
Never said that. I simply pointed out how to make SS solvent. I didn't
say whether I thought that it's existence was a good idea or not, or
necessary or not.
>
> It is government regulations that prevents failure and competition that
> stifle capitalism from doing what it naturally does when shifting
> markets, and also shifting assets and profits.
No shit, sherlock. Blatantly obvious.
>
> Were Bill Gates or Warren Buffett born Billionaires?
No.
JG
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
RHF
dog.com> wrote:
> RHF wrote:
> > On Nov 14, 3:36 pm, smor...@board.com wrote:
> >> On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:50:00 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
>
> >> <Then-Destroy-Everyth...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Europe has been relying on the USA to generate the wealth to keep Europe
> >>> free for the last 70 years.
> >>> We made their Socialism work, as we fail so shall their Socialism.
> >> You dingbat
>
> > - You wouldn't know a socialist if one kicked you.
>
> A socialist is someone that wants to take my money to pay for their shit.
>
- Like we paid for the military security of Europe and Europe decided
to
- give their people government health care, soon they'll be paying for
- their own military and their own health care.
Before the USA Pull-Outs of Iraq and Afghanistan
The USA needs to Pull-Out of Europe, Japan,
and South Korea.
Let's Bring the All the US Troops Home and Finally
Put-an-End the Post-War Occupations from WWII :
* Let Europe Pay the Full Price for It's Own Defense.
* Let Japan Pay the Full Price for It's Own Defense.
* Let South Korea Pay the Full Price for It's Own Defense.
Spend American Tax Dollars On American US Citizens
Right Here In America - say 'no' to foreign aid ~ RHF
.
- We will be in the toilet and Europe will get no subsidy
- to prop up their Socialist systems.
- Obama will bankrupt America and by doing so he will
- bankrupt the entire Socialist world we supported.
Obama-Nomics© Dollars-Make-Cents Reality Check :
Obama-Nomics©
Excessive Sending & More Spending & Lot's of Spending !
Higher Taxes & More Taxes & Lots of Taxes !
Massive Obama-Vernment© = Obama-Tax-Slavery© !
Every US Dollar Increase in the Price of Silver and
Gold is One more US Dollar Decrease in the Relative
"Value" of the US Dollar; and that does not represent
a Profit; just the preservation of your original Capital
Investment in the Gold and Silver.
Once the USA is Bankrupt in the next Decade and
can no longer support it's Military and resigns as a
Global Peacekeeper : Europe, Japan, etc will have
to Pay the True Cost of their own National Defense.
The USA Bankruptcy will happen when the US Dollar
is Devalued to 20~25 Cents on the Dollar -if- 'we'
Americans are Lucky
-or- to 5~10 Cents on the Dollar -if- 'we' Americans
are Unlucky.
Gold Ain't No Investment : It's a Hedge Against the
Devaluation of the US Dollar little-by-little year-by-year
for Decades -or- a Massive Monetary Collapse due
to Obama-Nomics© of the US Dollar.
buy-and-hold gold and/or silver take your 'pick'
-cause- the future of the us dollar don't look good ~ RHF
.
.
Go Green Recycle Congress ! -and-
Say 'No' to Obama & Pelosi & Reid
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/5b507cea80522b22
.
O.B.A.M.A. = One Big Absolute Mistake America !
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/244b71e8dcd31438
The ObamaNation© Creating a Culture of Joblessness,
Dependency and Controlling Your Every Day Life plus
Taxing Every Day You Live : That's Obama-Tax-Slavery© !
for those Americans that still have Jobs.
.
"Since When Has It Been Part of American Patriotism
to Keep Our Mouths Shut?" -a-la- Hillary Clinton 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/0e99a85fda97af18
.
Insane Political Pay-Back Is a B-I-T-C-H ~ RHF
-ps- In 2009 it's now Blame Obama & Pelsoi & Reid Time !
-cause- The ObamaSter© is the President and
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/d258661bafb39d97
* Democrats Control the White House and
The Obama-Regime© is in charge
* Democrats Control the US House and
The Pelosi-Mob© is in charge
* Democrats Control the US Senate and
The Reid-Syndicate© is in charge
.
Weekly Reminder to All Obama-Heads©
Have You Gone Out and Wee-Wee'd-Up !
on "Weed" This Week ?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/f6486d6445551365
* Obama-Cares© Prescription Drug Benefit : Free
'Medical' Marijuana : Puff Today & Die Tomorrow
.
Expanding & Redefining The Obama-Enemies-List©
to include Anti-American Enemies-of-the-People
like Fox News & Republicans & Conservatives
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/70e0ecd9724e72fc
.
Beam Me Up Scotty
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:54:55 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
> <Then-Destro...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>
>>> As I believe I've heard---we spend less of our GNP on
>>> foriegn aid that a lot of the industrial nations
>>> do--amounting to (I believe) less than 1%
>> We are at a tipping point 1% may put us into bankruptcy
>
> Afghanistan that Obama has to deal with
>
Those certainly are a risk that may bankrupt us, which is why we need to
curb social spending to guarantee we have a society left to live in.
> Or the wasted surplus given to the top 5% in tax cuts,
> which then followed.....
>
Taxes are wasted I agree but much more than 5% of tax receipts are
wasted by government.
> ......the idiotic "cowboy" foreign policy that pissed
> the entire civilized world off---so that we have had NO
> cooperation in troubled areas?
We only need the world when we come to their aid in a world war.
*We were attacked* , That was NATO's prime directive, to come to our aid
when we were attacked. Since NATO is failing in fulfilling that treaty,
the treaty is null and void and we need to end all support to NATO.
WE CAN SAVE BILLIONS.....
*DROP NATO AND DROP THE UN*
--
*BE VERY CONCERNED*
Don't list what you studied, tell me where you succeeded and failed.
*Poetic-Justice*
RHF
> smor...@board.com wrote:
> > On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:11:14 -0600, John Galt
> > <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> You apparently live in a parallel universe. May I ask where you get
> >>> your news from?
> >> I travel extensively for work in Europe, talk just as extensively about
> >> these issues to my colleagues, and have relatives who live and work in
> >> Belgium, Germany, Sweden, The Netherlands, Austria, and Italy.
>
> > Ah, yes
>
> > Anecdotal evidence
>
> > How quaint
>
> Nothing anecdotal about it, child.
>
> My own nephew is now back at work because Sweden reclassified his
> particular physical problem from "disability" to "able-bodied" as part
> of the government's pullback of covered benefits of their social welfer
> longer covered if you care to do some research. Same thing for the
> Netherlands and Germany (at least) which have also pulled back on
> coverage in their systems.
>
> Simply because the fact is transmitted word-of-mouth rather than in a
> media outlet does not render it unfactual.
There are those Real "Facts" that we personally
"Know" from first-hand experience.
-and- There are those 'facts' that we have read
about; and accept as being 'facts'.
>
> Now, back to your trailer park. You're obviously one of those Americans
> who doesn't have a passport, but considers themselves an expert on world
> affairs.
>
> JG
John Galt
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:00:12 -0600, John Galt
> <kad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> smo...@board.com wrote:
>>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:03:16 -0600, John Galt
>>> <kad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is a first hand account, and as such, is beyond contestation.
>>>>
>>>> Apparently if you were in the jury on a murder trial, you'd discount the
>>>> eyewitnesses and try and Google up material to base your decision on.
>>> Except no one can impeach your "testimony"
>> Of course you can. Just that my nephew's condition (which is a mild
>> scoliosis) was not affected by the Swedish social security reforms of 2008.
>
> posted?
First off, I'm not sure why you need citations, unless you're
mathematically challenged.
ALL social welfare systems depend on the contributions of the workers to
support those who cannot work. Funding mechanisms for all these programs
were developed in the 50s through the 70's, before people stopped having
so many kids. It's fairly easy to develop an equation that demonstrates
a valid funding mechanism; then, cut the money coming into the system
through tax receipts by a third a watch it go into the red. Like SS and
Medicare, most of these systems amassed large bank accounts while people
were still bearing children, and have been tapping those balances for
decades now while people scaled back their childbearing. They all have a
date when they go into the red; SS is in the late 2030's, Medicare
around 2014-2017, and so do the Euro and Japanese systems (the latter
being in the worst shape of all, if memory serves.)
Second, it's hardly a secret that the systems are failing. Although
mostly focused on the US entitlements, Dr. Koltikoff of MIT did
reference the other systems to some extent in his book The Coming
Generational Storm. The status of the US entitlements (which is pretty
grim) was researched heavily by Drs. Gokhale and Smetters for Paul
O'Neill; O'Neill's refusal to bury the findings got him fired. You can
google up "Smetters FINAL" and get the core research that the CBO and
Trustees are looking at, although it's probably been updated since then,
and not for the better.
Third, I'm wondering why we're even talking about this. Assuming you're
an American, WTF do you care about the Euro systems? We don't have a
Euro system, we'll never have a Euro system, and so what happens over
there doesn't matter a whit over here. You've already got an impossible
job defending the Rookie-in-Chief's running an October deficit that was
as large as the entire 2007 annual deficit, which you Demosocialists
were whining about as being way too large.
You need to stay focused.
JG
Beam Me Up Scotty
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:56:23 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
> <Then-Destro...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>
>> NATO was and is in the interest of subsidizing European military power.
>
> than us
>
> That's worth it.
>
We subsidized them to the hilt for 40 years and when we were attacked,
they turned out to be a pack of limp dicks, totally useless.
NATO was to hit Afghanistan and leave us able to stomp Saddam into the
sand, NATO failed while We the USA succeeded, Iraq was beaten and
Afghanistan was a multinational failure.
--
RHF
> smor...@board.com wrote:
> > On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:11:14 -0600, John Galt
> > <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> You apparently live in a parallel universe. May I ask where you get
> >>> your news from?
> >> I travel extensively for work in Europe, talk just as extensively about
> >> these issues to my colleagues, and have relatives who live and work in
> >> Belgium, Germany, Sweden, The Netherlands, Austria, and Italy.
>
> > Ah, yes
>
> > Anecdotal evidence
>
> > How quaint
>
> Nothing anecdotal about it, child.
>
> My own nephew is now back at work because Sweden reclassified his
> particular physical problem from "disability" to "able-bodied" as part
> of the government's pullback of covered benefits of their social welfer
> system. You can quite easily get a list of such things that are no
> longer covered if you care to do some research. Same thing for the
> Netherlands and Germany (at least) which have also pulled back on
> coverage in their systems.
America's Senior US Citizens have paid into the
US Medicare System for Decades and still Pay
into it -but- Now face $500B in Medicare Cut-Backs
{reclassified as Cost-Savings} to Pay for Obama-Care©
-ps- US Medicare System Cut-Backs* but the US
Medicare System Month Payment stays the same.
* Less Services & Same Cost = Relative Higher Cost
> Simply because the fact is transmitted word-of-mouth rather than in a
> media outlet does not render it unfactual.
>
Beam Me Up Scotty
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:30:53 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
> <Then-Destro...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>
>> Government Redistribution is not a tenet of capitalism,
>
>
> We have 50 disparate states in land area, population,
> wealth, and other considerations
>
> One small, highly populated, state with access to trade
> and commerce can generate billions.
>
> One Large rural, huge land area state ( 700,000 or
> less) still has to build 10 times more miles of roads,
> bridges and other things to survive
Bridges to "nowhere"
>
> We "redistribute" wealth from one to the other by means
> of a national congress
We are supposed to build infrastructure for all to use, not redistribute
wealth. There is a difference.
--
I M @ good guy
<Then-Destro...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:22:16 +0900, "Brenda Ann"
>> <newsg...@fullspectrumradio.org> wrote:
>>
>>> <smo...@board.com> wrote in message
>>> news:5d80g5td4pueo1s0e...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:15:02 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
>>>> <Then-Destro...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Do you think the Europeans will decide to defend themselves and pay for
>>>>> their Socialism?
>>>> They do pay. They vote in those policies
>>>>
>>>>> How will that work? They barely have any economy as it is...
>>> My question would be, if they "barely have any economy..." then why is it
>>> that the Euro, which started out on par with the $US, is now worth half
>>> again as much as said $US?
>
>Because we are paying for European/Japan/Korean/Israel security and the
>UN and NATO and European/Japan pay for health care.....
>
>Our dollar is crashing because of our attempt to have it all, Socialist
>health care and economy, and pay for the security of all the rest.
>
>We will print and print and print until the dollar is destroyed in an
>attempt to become Socialists that keep security for half the world.
Learn something about US currency, none is printed
to pay government bills, every dollar printed is sold dollar
for dollar, that is one of the reasons to have a FRB, so the
banks and the government do not print money to spend.
Beam Me Up Scotty
The USA has been monitizing the debt, Borrowing what they print.... that
is government printing it and spending it.
Normally they didn't print it to borrow it, they recently did it by
buying from a middle man.
--
RHF
>
> >> smor...@board.com wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:03:16 -0600, John Galt
> >>> <kady...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> It is a first hand account, and as such, is beyond contestation.
>
> >>>> Apparently if you were in the jury on a murder trial, you'd discount the
> >>>> eyewitnesses and try and Google up material to base your decision on.
> >>> Except no one can impeach your "testimony"
> >> Of course you can. Just that my nephew's condition (which is a mild
> >> scoliosis) was not affected by the Swedish social security reforms of 2008.
>
> > Other than you "saying so"---what evidence have you
> > posted?
>
> First off, I'm not sure why you need citations, unless you're
> mathematically challenged.
>
workers to
- support those who cannot work. Funding mechanisms for all these
programs
- were developed in the 50s through the 70's, before people stopped
having
- so many kids. It's fairly easy to develop an equation that
demonstrates
- a valid funding mechanism; then, cut the money coming into the
system
- through tax receipts by a third a watch it go into the red. Like SS
and
- Medicare, most of these systems amassed large bank accounts while
people
- were still bearing children, and have been tapping those balances
for
- decades now while people scaled back their childbearing. They all
have a
- date when they go into the red; SS is in the late 2030's, Medicare
- around 2014-2017, and so do the Euro and Japanese systems (the
latter
- being in the worst shape of all, if memory serves.)
Oops except that LBJ and the US Congress 'took'
{robbed} the Social Security Trust Funds out of
there Locked Boxes and put them into the General
Fund and Spent It All on the Great Society and
'other' Social Programs.
SO THERE AIN'T NO MONEY THERE [.]
Now Prez Obama wants to 'take' $500B of Medicare
Spending and Divert it to Pay for Obama-Care©
Which will result in Cuts in Medicare Services but
keep Higher Medicare Premiums -aka- a Medicare
"Price Hike" and Gouging America's Senior US
Citizens to apy for Free Medical Treatment to
Illegal Aliens via Obama-Care©.
SHAME ON YOU PREZ OBAMA !
John Galt
There are bonds there. I'll accept those as money. However, that doesn't
alter the fact that it's a legal Ponzi scheme.
>
> Now Prez Obama wants to 'take' $500B of Medicare
> Spending and Divert it to Pay for Obama-Care�
>
> Which will result in Cuts in Medicare Services but
> keep Higher Medicare Premiums -aka- a Medicare
> "Price Hike" and Gouging America's Senior US
> Citizens to apy for Free Medical Treatment to
> Illegal Aliens via Obama-Care�.
Yep.
JG
RHF
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:56:23 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
>
> <Then-Destroy-Everyth...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
> >NATO was and is in the interest of subsidizing European military power.
>
> than us
>
> That's worth it.
In a War between the US and Russia -or-
the US and China : Euro-Land is Fly-Over
Country for the Missiles headed in both
directions.
NATO is no longer in the USA's interest :
Bring the US Troops Home NOW !
~ RHF
.
RHF
- change the way the COLA is calcuated
An 'honest' COLA is just that : Keeping People
Even {Equal} with the Cost of Living on an Annual
basis; and nothing more; and nothing less.
Changing the 'calculation' by some Arbitrary Rules
to Short-Change the Retirees is just that Robbing
from the Retirees. {Violating the Social Contract}
Beam Me Up Scotty
More taxes kill jobs and mean less being paid into SS as is happening now.
> - change the way the COLA is calcuated
>
> An 'honest' COLA is just that : Keeping People
> Even {Equal} with the Cost of Living on an Annual
> basis; and nothing more; and nothing less.
>
> Changing the 'calculation' by some Arbitrary Rules
> to Short-Change the Retirees is just that Robbing
> from the Retirees. {Violating the Social Contract}
>
>> and
>> you've got SS' funding mechanism fixed. Medicare is harder, and probably
>> will have to be reformed to being a high-deductable plan OR experience a
>> significant (400%?) increase in its payroll tax.
>>
>> It's just arithmetic.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Whether it's wise or not is another matter entirely.
>>> Eventually all the money will be spent and it is no longer sustainable
>>> and cuts must be made.... that's unsustainable.
>>> There is no practical way to indefinitely redistribute wealth,
>>> eventually there is no wealth to distribute, the
>>> *law-of-diminishing-returns* .
>> Yet it must occur. Adam Smith was correct, in my view, when he noted
>> that without redistribution, you'll eventually return to a feudal society..
>>
>> Conservative economics acknowledges the need for redistributive mechanisms.
>>
>> JG
>>
>>
>
--
RHF
> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 04:52:08 -0800 (PST), RHF
>
> <rhf-newsgro...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >The Europeans do not have the Will and the
> >Capital to Fully Defend themselves on their
> >own.
>
> Wanna bet that THEY would be the first to lose millions
> in a war---(assuming the Soviets)---and that IF they
> all had the same nuclear technology and stockpiles of
> weaponry---what a massive mess it would be?
>
> WE took on the task of that role--providing the huge
> atomic arsenal---to counter the Soviet threat.
>
> So any convential war would first put those whom you
> disparage at greater risk than us.
>
> >Once the USA is Bankrupt in the next Decade
> >and can no longer support it's Military and resigns
> >at the 'mercy' of Russia, China, India and OPEC.
>
> It's been known for decades and decades that the
> natural resources of the Soviet Union are comparable to
> ours---just that much of it lies under the tundra
> (iron, minerals, etc)
>
- If you're so fucking concerned with global
- threats---why in hell would you sound like you
- supported the corruption of reaganism, his voodoo
- ecnomics and the dim-witted idiot that put it back in
- place?
Reagan is Dead and Name Calling is a tired old
Liberal-Fascist technique : No Facts.
Obama-Nomics© and Excessive "Zombie" Spending
and Massive "Zombie" Taxes are Today's Reality
http://doosmdayclockradio.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/obama-zombie.jpg
Obama-Nomics© is socialism, Socialism. SOCIALISM !
http://www.classicalvalues.com/Obama-socialism_0.jpg
.
> >USA is Bankruptcy will happen
>
> Same song--100th verse
>
> Stop supporting corrupt loonytarian nonsense and
> idiotic conservative crap.
O.B.A.M.A. = One Big Absolute Mistake America !
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.radio.shortwave/msg/244b71e8dcd31438
The ObamaNation© Creating a Culture of Joblessness,
Dependency and Controlling Your Every Day Life plus
Taxing Every Day You Live : That's Obama-Tax-Slavery© !
.
dave
> dave wrote:
>>
>>> Now, back to your trailer park. You're obviously one of those
>>> Americans who doesn't have a passport, but considers themselves an
>>> expert on world affairs.
>>>
>>
>> One doesn't need to be an expert to aspire to objective analysis.
>
> Then get on a fucking plane and rectify your lack of knowledge.
You're a true vulgarian, aren't you?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/03/000000_newshour.shtml
Beam Me Up Scotty
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:40:14 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
> <Then-Destro...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
>
>>> Whether it's wise or not is another matter entirely.
>>
>> Eventually all the money will be spent and it is no longer sustainable
>> and cuts must be made.... that's unsustainable.
>
>
> That assumption is that none come in
>
Socialist GDP, that means it's not an assumption it is a proven fact.
> This same nonsense whine has been heard over and over
> and all they had to do with raise the ceiling and
> slightly increase the withholding.
--
RHF
> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:01:33 -0500, Beam Me Up Scotty
>
>
>
> <Then-Destroy-Everyth...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
> >dave wrote:
> >> Beam Me Up Scotty wrote:
>
> >>> Do you think the Europeans will decide to defend themselves and pay for
> >>> their Socialism?
>
> >>> the 20% it will cost to keep a real army and they will be pushing 95%
> >>> taxes for the average worker. It will also drop their GDP to a -19.5%
> >>> GDP.
>
> >>https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ee.html
>
> >GDP
> >0.9% (2008 est.)
> >country comparison to the world: 181
> >3% (2007 est.)
> >3.4% (2006 est.)
>
> >Expect as they use their GDP for military that it will fall and it is
> >generally within the margin of error so it will be flat to negative GDP.
- Gee, which part only has 7,000 income per capita?
You don't need 'Income' if the Government
Give you everything for Free.
.
I M @ good guy
<Then-Destro...@Talk-n-dog.com> wrote:
What? All the debt is the result of the interest on
the 255 Billion at the end of WWII. Figure the interest
compounded annually at 6 or 7 percent for 64 years.
>Normally they didn't print it to borrow it, they recently did it by
>buying from a middle man.
Normally the new money borrowed was less than
the interest paid, so that part of the interest paid
was just rolled over.
The total US currency in circulation is less than
one Trillion, and more than half of that circulates
outside the USA.
The government has already spent all the
money collected in SS taxes, so I don't know how
they will resolve that.
But things have changed, such a large part
of the cash flow is for things other than the most
basic items that are in restricted supply, like raw
materials, some modernization of funding may
be developed, so there is some hope.
Borrowing from the Federal Reserve Bank is
an atrocity against the taxpayer, the treasury can
create money just as well as the FRB, without
printing it.
John Galt
> John Galt wrote:
>> dave wrote:
>>> John Galt wrote:
>
>>>
>>>> Now, back to your trailer park. You're obviously one of those
>>>> Americans who doesn't have a passport, but considers themselves an
>>>> expert on world affairs.
>>>>
>>>
>>> One doesn't need to be an expert to aspire to objective analysis.
>>
>> Then get on a fucking plane and rectify your lack of knowledge.
>
> You're a true vulgarian, aren't you?
I have a low tolerance for people who sit in barricaded towers and throw
stones. Anyone can do that, including monkeys. If you want to understand
the world, you need to get out there and learn about it.
JG
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/03/000000_newshour.shtml
John Galt
There's more than one COLA. The one that SS is tied to is not the
cost-of-living COLA, despite its name. It's the one that's tied to WAGE
inflation. Wage inflation will always exceed cost of living inflation
(in a healthy economy) by a couple of tenths of a percent per year.
Moving SS to the real COLA and off the wage COLA makes a huge difference
in the solvency of the system.
>
> Changing the 'calculation' by some Arbitrary Rules
> to Short-Change the Retirees is just that Robbing
> from the Retirees. {Violating the Social Contract}
It's not arbitrary. Retirees don't work. They're retired. Their
financial challenge is the inflation in goods and services. They're tied
to the wrong one. It's illogical.
JG
RHF
dog.com> wrote:
Taxes for Bridges to Nowhere . . .
-translation- Every Tax Dollar that is Spent Foolishly
is an Excessive Unnecessary Tax Dollar and Robs
Citizens of Their Monies in Taxes.
Taxes for Infrastructure that never gets built and the
Money is Spent on More Important Social Programs
-cause- It's the Right Thing To Do.
-translation- Bail-and-Switch Taxing : Fooling the
Voters with False Promises of Building for the Future
-but- Diverting and Spending the Tax Monies to Buy
Votes and Promote Alternative Political Agendas.
.
RHF
- - - change the way the COLA is calcuated
Prez Obama Don't Mess with the Calculation
of the Social Security COLA !
-fyi- Cost-of-Living Adjustment [COLA] for Social Security
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OACT/COLA/latestCOLA.html
* Social Security COLA History 1975 to 2009
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OACT/COLA/colaseries.html
- - An 'honest' COLA is just that : Keeping People
- - Even {Equal} with the Cost of Living on an Annual
- - basis; and nothing more; and nothing less.
- There's more than one COLA. The one that SS is tied to is not the
- cost-of-living COLA, despite its name. It's the one that's tied to
WAGE
- inflation. Wage inflation will always exceed cost of living
inflation
- (in a healthy economy) by a couple of tenths of a percent per year.
- Moving SS to the real COLA and off the wage COLA makes a huge
difference
- in the solvency of the system.
NO the Social Security COLA is 'based' on a "Market
Basket" of Goods and Services -not- Worker Wages.
-hint- Consumer Price Index [CPI] = Market Basket
Consumer Price Index [CPI] -for- Urban Wage Earners
and Clerical Workers (CPI-W)
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.nr0.htm
(CPI-W)
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.t06.htm
(CPI-W)
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.t04.htm
-hint- COLA is based-on What the Average Wage
Earn/Worker Spends their Money On to Live and
NOT Their Wages.
- - Changing the 'calculation' by some Arbitrary Rules
- - to Short-Change the Retirees is just that Robbing
- - from the Retirees. {Violating the Social Contract}
Prez Obama Don't Mess with the Calculation
of the Social Security COLA !
- It's not arbitrary. Retirees don't work.
- They're retired. Their financial challenge is the
- inflation in goods and services. They're tied
- to the wrong one. It's illogical.
NO Your Are Wrong CPI-W is for Goods and Services
that Senior Citizens {Retirees} NEED to Live Day-to-Day;
even if it is just Bread and Water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Consumer_Price_Index
Michael Coburn
This is somewhat interesting in that the rightarded myth really is that
Johnson robbed the trust funds to support his dual wars with no tax
increase. The truth is that he merely insisted on a "unified budget"
regarding the deficit or surplus of the entire federal system. The trust
fund was STILL there and still accounted. In 1983 the Republicans
insisted that the SS system and other OFF_BUDGET systems be removed from
the budgets as to claims of surplus and deficits, but that the change
would not take place until 1993 when they had finished stealing as much
as they could.
> Now Prez Obama wants to 'take' $500B of Medicare Spending and Divert it
> to Pay for Obama-Care©
So do you have a point to make here?????? It is _ALL_ social insurance.
> Which will result in Cuts in Medicare Services
LIE.
> but keep Higher Medicare
> Premiums -aka- a Medicare "Price Hike" and Gouging America's Senior US
> Citizens to apy for Free Medical Treatment to Illegal Aliens via
> Obama-Care©.
Roll up pants legs cause Republican pig shit is getting reeeeeel deep.
> SHAME ON YOU PREZ OBAMA !
Why do you people lie so much?
>> Second, it's hardly a secret that the systems are failing. Although
>> mostly focused on the US entitlements, Dr. Koltikoff of MIT did
>> reference the other systems to some extent in his book The Coming
>> Generational Storm. The status of the US entitlements (which is pretty
>> grim) was researched heavily by Drs. Gokhale and Smetters for Paul
>> O'Neill; O'Neill's refusal to bury the findings got him fired. You can
>> google up "Smetters FINAL" and get the core research that the CBO and
>> Trustees are looking at, although it's probably been updated since
>> then, and not for the better.
>>
>> Third, I'm wondering why we're even talking about this. Assuming you're
>> an American, WTF do you care about the Euro systems? We don't have a
>> Euro system, we'll never have a Euro system, and so what happens over
>> there doesn't matter a whit over here. You've already got an impossible
>> job defending the Rookie-in-Chief's running an October deficit that was
>> as large as the entire 2007 annual deficit, which you Demosocialists
>> were whining about as being way too large.
>>
>> You need to stay focused.
>>
>> JG
--
"Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson
Michael Coburn
Very nice lying. Newt, Rove, and Hannity will be proud.
>> Simply because the fact is transmitted word-of-mouth rather than in a
>> media outlet does not render it unfactual.
>>
>> Now, back to your trailer park. You're obviously one of those Americans
>> who doesn't have a passport, but considers themselves an expert on
>> world affairs.
>>
>> JG
--
RHF
Social
- - Security Trust Funds out of there Locked Boxes and put them into
the
- - General Fund and Spent It All on the Great Society and 'other'
Social
- - Programs.
- - SO THERE AIN'T NO MONEY THERE [.]
- This is somewhat interesting in that the rightarded myth really is
that
- Johnson robbed the trust funds to support his dual wars with no tax
- increase. The truth is that he merely insisted on a "unified
budget"
- regarding the deficit or surplus of the entire federal system.
- The trust fund was STILL there and still accounted.
Yes On-Paper the Social Security Trust Fund is
Still "There" -but- No One can find 'there' anymore.
Paper Accounting Ain't a Locked Box
[ Unified Budget = Unified Un-Controlled Spending ]
Ah so it's all a Republican Myth
HEY ! Better Tell That One to Al Gore -circa- 2000
http://www.t-mobilepictures.com/myalbum/photos/photo35/00/f3/bf5329e9bf8e.jpg
-omg- Did Al Gore 'lie' to the American Voters ?
[ An Inconvenient Truth -or- Escape from Reality ]
- In 1983 the Republicans insisted that the SS system
- and other OFF_BUDGET systems be removed from
- the budgets as to claims of surplus and deficits,
Sort of like counting them in a Locked Box :
instead of a Petty Cash Fund open to anyone.
- but that the change would not take place until 1993
- when they had finished stealing as much as they could.
They 'being' the Democrats and Republicans both.
So again remember of how many of those years
from LBJ 1963 to WJC 1993 did the Republicans
control the US Congress . . .
* D'Oh ! Speakers of the US House
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Speakers_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives
* D'Oh ! Majority Leaders of the US Senate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_leaders_of_the_United_States_Senate
dang - it boggles the mind ~ RHF
.
(OT) : Obama-Regime© Exposes "The Myth"
of a Social Security Trust Fund
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund
.
- - Now Prez Obama wants to 'take' $500B of Medicare
- - Spending and Divert it to Pay for Obama-Care©
- So do you have a point to make here??????
- It is _ALL_ social insurance.
NO it just all Paper IOUs
- - Which will result in Cuts in Medicare Services
- LIE.
So there will be NO $500B Cut in Medicare Services
as Prez Obama has said many times over again ? ? ?
-omg- Did Prez Obama 'lie' to Us ?
- - but keep Higher Medicare
- - Premiums -aka- a Medicare "Price Hike"
- - and Gouging America's Senior US
- - Citizens to pay for Free Medical Treatment
- - to Illegal Aliens via Obama-Care©.
- Roll up pants legs cause Republican pig shit
- is getting reeeeeel deep.
So No Medicare Services will be Cut ?
So Medicare Premiums will be Lowered ?
So there will be NO 'Free" Obama-Care©
for Illegal Aliens ?
- - SHAME ON YOU PREZ OBAMA !
- Why do you people lie so much?
Prez Obama is a Great Role Model and Inspiration !
>
>
> >> Second, it's hardly a secret that the systems are failing. Although
> >> mostly focused on the US entitlements, Dr. Koltikoff of MIT did
> >> reference the other systems to some extent in his book The Coming
> >> Generational Storm. The status of the US entitlements (which is pretty
> >> grim) was researched heavily by Drs. Gokhale and Smetters for Paul
> >> O'Neill; O'Neill's refusal to bury the findings got him fired. You can
> >> google up "Smetters FINAL" and get the core research that the CBO and
> >> Trustees are looking at, although it's probably been updated since
> >> then, and not for the better.
>
> >> Third, I'm wondering why we're even talking about this. Assuming you're
> >> an American, WTF do you care about the Euro systems? We don't have a
> >> Euro system, we'll never have a Euro system, and so what happens over
> >> there doesn't matter a whit over here. You've already got an impossible
> >> job defending the Rookie-in-Chief's running an October deficit that was
> >> as large as the entire 2007 annual deficit, which you Demosocialists
> >> were whining about as being way too large.
>
> >> You need to stay focused.
>
> >> JG
>
> --
- "Those are my opinions and you can't have em" -- Bart Simpson
Ah If Only . . . Bart Simpson was Da Prez . . .
http://anmblog.typepad.com/this_is_money_blog/images/2008/02/27/bartaycaramba_203x150_2.jpg
.