NEW Idea to get rid of Brady and NICS and still stop criminals!
The-Trainers
(I think I covered all the issues or objections, but you tell me)
Have ALL drivers licenses or state issued photo ID of FELONS modified
in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this person
may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
unmodifiable!
The reason it MUST be in some "hidden" way is to avoid the massive
negative reaction a "visible" "mark of shame" would get from privacy
groups and the ACLU! The courts have made it pretty clear that any
such visible "mark of shame" would get rejected by the courts after
a long and expensive delay! And for good reason!
Anybody seeing this "mark of shame", like an employer or landlord or
potential lover or anyone taking a check or anyone checking ID for a
credit card or friends or neighbors or loan officers or New Accounts
people at the bank or bar tenders or... will ALL see this mark of shame
and will INSTANTLY ASSUME THE WORST!
If the guy happens to have had a break-down from grief over the death of
his children and thus went for treatment at a mental hospital because of a
suicide attempt, that guy will have his license with the mark of shame on
it too! ANY of the dozens and dozens of people who will see his ID from
that day on, will ASSUME he is some child-killer and react to him as if he
were!
This is why the courts would toss out any "visible" mark of shame!
My reasons for offering my system are simple.
By presenting a realistic and workable and effective (not to mention
cost effective) means to allow law-abiding Americans to buy guns WITHOUT
government registrations, while calming the nerves of the anti-gun crowd
and making sense to the un-decideds, we have a chance to KEEP gun-rights
for the Americans who have done nothing wrong at all! And get rid of
Brady and NICS too!
All we NEED is a way that (gun dealers or anyone who goes to a gun dealer
to check the ID of a potential buyer) can be used to determine if this
person is eligible to buy a gun or not! This does NOT just limit it to
felons, it also means those with mental illness and others who are
restricted!
ALL gun dealers would be REQUIRED to allow their ID-checking box to be
used by ANYONE who wishes to sell a gun! If I wanted to sell a gun to a
private party, all I would have to do is go with the buyer to a gun store
and tell the dealer we need to do a check before a gun transaction.
The dealer would be required to point out his checking box and allow me to
use it to PERSONALLY check the ID of the buyer then you would have done
ALL you would be required to do! NO FURTHER INVOLVEMENT WITH ANYONE!
I realize that it is not the ideal "perfect solution", like eliminating
all gun-control laws, however, my idea is one that will remove the
primary threats to our rights and have a great chance of being passed!
My idea is fighting to undo what the gun-haters have done with exactly
the same successful methods that they have used to win so far! Fight fire
with fire! Use their own methods against them! They KNOW how to play the game!
WE NEED to learn from their winning methods and use similar methods
against their bad laws to replace them with laws that will improve things
for the rest of us!
The gun-haters are winning step by step, WE can ONLY win in the same
manner! The "all or nothing" concept FAILS 100% of the time!
The gun-haters KNOW this, WE ALL need to understand this too!
My system would have several advantages over Brady and NICS!
No need for background checks or waiting periods for law-abiding citizens!
The instant someone is arrested for a crime, they have their ID taken and
up-dated on the spot to say in the data strip that they are NOT allowed to
buy a gun. If they are later found not guilty, the change to their
license can then be altered to show an "OK". Same could go for mental
institutions making sure that patients could not buy guns. This is a group
NOT being covered by Brady or NICS!
Then the gun dealers could have a device (stand alone, NOT connected to a
computer or phone line or antenna) to read this part of the data and KNOW
on the spot that this guy is NOT allowed to buy a gun! This would even
prevent a criminal from using a RENTAL gun range to get in some practice!
All of the known felons in the USA could be REQUIRED to bring in their
existing drivers licenses or phot ID cards to the DMV or police and their
ID cards would be simply and quickly modified to show they are not allowed
to buy a gun. The modifications would also not be changeable back to
"normal" by any non-destructive means.
Since the FBI KNOWS all felons names already, this would be quick too!
Those cards would then have a HEAVILY encrypted code placed on them that
simply says NO to the question of "can this person buy a gun?"
This same thing could be done by the courts who judge someone
mentally-ill, their license could be taken on the spot and modified!
This way there would be NO reason for the FBI or any government agency to
WASTE their time building a list of lawful gun owners, and rejecting
criminals, the STORES could do the rejections on the spot!
These devices could be provided under contract from the FBI to all FFL gun
dealers! They would be cheap! They would be impossible to hack or
duplicate! Such technology is available today and would cost only a
fraction of what the universal manual checks cost, even the hardware could
be ready within a few months. Such a system could be up and running by the
end of the year!
It would be impossible to restore a modified ID back to "normal" again.
It would be impossible to fake the "OK" if strong encryption was used.
It would also make the info UNAVAILABLE to anyone else!
It would be simple for the police to have special card writers
linked with FBI computers that would allow the police to alter the data
to once again allow a person to buy a gun if the reason they were
denied went away! This would be done with the FBI computers to assure
that even the local cops had no access to being able to put a "YES"
on a once modified card.
The mag data strip can easily be altered in ways that other ordinary
card-writers would not be able to correct or to copy the data from other
cards! You can even alter the magnetic properties of the strip in ways
that these new card readers will recognize and that cannot be "erased".
You may be aware that our money is designed with a variety of magnetic
properties that allows money readers to KNOW what type of bill it is by
simply detecting the magnetic differences between bill types, or is this
news to people?
Mag-stripes can be altered in the same way and cannot be "fixed" once
altered! However, the data can say, "yes, this guy was once not allowed to
buy a gun, but he is now allowed to." And the strong encryption will
prevent anyone from figuring out how to switch that data!
You can also add the requirement of hand entered data off the face of the
ID card! This hand-entered data would be like your license number, your
birth date, your height, etc... to provide another level of security.
Well, folks, what do you think?
The only way I see the government abusing this system is if they suddenly
altered ALL drivers licenses to say "NO", but people would get wise to
that pretty fast!
The only way I can see criminals breaking this system would be if they
were able to produce PERFECT replicas of existing state issued photo
IDs with a photo and other personal data all matching the criminal!
And if they can do this, we got much bigger problems anyway!
Of course the state governments have created some pretty impressive
anti-counterfeiting measures in their modern photo IDs, so I expect
this will not be a problem anyway!
Comments?
MT
King Trent
1) You say that this data on the card would be unchangeable, yet you also
say that it could be updated on the spot after an arrest. If it can be so
readily changed by a portable, battery-powered unit by the police, how hard
can it be for some bright boy to duplicate the technology? Especially with
Radio Shacks in most mid- to large cities.
2) You talk about encryption, but think about this for a moment. If the
data is encrypted, that means some human agency had a hand in the creation
of either the encryption algorithm or the encryption software. What one
person can build, another can defeat.
3) If this is not a visible "mark of shame", but the ID will be used for
many purposes, eventually, everyone will know about the person's problems or
conviction(s). This would probably cause the ACLU to have some serious
privacy concerns, and they would fight the proposal on the grounds that the
rights of these felons and mentally ill people are being violated.
Overall, the idea has a lot going for it. You are also right when you say
that the all or nothing approach isn't working. The problem here lies with
the reasons for gun control. Government does not want to control the
criminal element--they want to disarm the people. They will use any means
to do this. It is for this reason that some of us believe that an all or
nothing battle is the only way to go. If we compromise, we have lost, much
as we have been losing all along.
Of course, our nation was never truly free. It was less than a year after
our nation's birth when the Congress was trying to repeal the Constitution,
or amend it into uselessness.
You see, the root problem lies in that old saw about power corrupting. Our
elected officials, once they have been elected, then divert 50% of their
energies towards maintaining their office and the other 50% in making sure
the rest of us can't screw it up for them.
That, my friend, is called tyranny, and the only way to oppose tyranny is
100%, no compromise, WAR.
--
King Trent
----------------
"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may
attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must occasionally be
raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of
their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their
right to keep and bear their private arms."
--Tench Coxe
The-Trainers wrote in message ...
Lackey Boy
The-Trainers wrote in message ...
>(I think I covered all the issues or objections, but you tell me)
>
>Have ALL drivers licenses or state issued photo ID of FELONS modified
>in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this person
>may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
>unmodifiable!
It all sounds good in concept, but would be extremely hard to implement.
Each state can place any further restrictions on firearms ownership as they
see fit. So just restricting it to appease Brady would fail. It would have
to be a state issued permit-type system.
In which case, as easier method would be to have each state institue their
own permit system, using the federal and state laws as they apply to
determine whether a permit should be issued. Any BS waiting, I mean cooling
off, period is handled at the state level, any required background check is
taken care of.
The "mark of shame" does not have to be what you think. Instead of a mark
saying that one is prohibited, you could use a mark that says that one is
ABLE to purchase. Or, if you want a mark to indicate a prohibited person,
then that is all it would mean. No reason need by given.
But then, it begs the question, "Prohibited by federal statute, or by state
statute, and if so, what state?" Granted, an FFL in one state cannot
legally transfer a firearm to a resident of another state, if that person is
prohibited in their home state, it is still worthy of consideration.
I think you would find it economically unfeasible to imprint a DL with this
info. As even the state issued permit can be forged, imprinting a DL would
be just as easy, given time, desire and ingenuity.
>All we NEED is a way that (gun dealers or anyone who goes to a gun dealer
>to check the ID of a potential buyer) can be used to determine if this
>person is eligible to buy a gun or not! This does NOT just limit it to
>felons, it also means those with mental illness and others who are
>restricted!
>
>ALL gun dealers would be REQUIRED to allow their ID-checking box to be
>used by ANYONE who wishes to sell a gun! If I wanted to sell a gun to a
>private party, all I would have to do is go with the buyer to a gun store
>and tell the dealer we need to do a check before a gun transaction.
Inconventient. A state permit would suffice just as well, without
necessatating a trip to the closest FFL. But, by the same token, is good to
require going to someone and have the info verified. Because, if a person
does not have their DL imprinted, the buyer would still have to submit to
the background checks and so on.
In my state, Iowa, you CANNOT buy a handgun without a permit issued by the
sheriff. No permit is required for a rifle or shotgun, just a DL. Same
federal laws apply, as well as some that are instituted by the state. the
permit indicates thata background check has been completed, and the peron is
legal. We have no waiting period to buy a handgun. You need only the
permit.
>My system would have several advantages over Brady and NICS!
>
>No need for background checks or waiting periods for law-abiding citizens!
>The instant someone is arrested for a crime, they have their ID taken and
>up-dated on the spot to say in the data strip that they are NOT allowed to
>buy a gun. If they are later found not guilty, the change to their
>license can then be altered to show an "OK". Same could go for mental
>institutions making sure that patients could not buy guns. This is a group
>NOT being covered by Brady or NICS!
Just because a person checks into a mental hospital, it does not mean that
they are a prohibited person there after. Only if they are "ajudicated
mentally incompetent" are they prohibited in this case. Otherwise, your
idea of mental hospitals declaring persons prohibited would be a private run
institution infringing on rights. Wouldn't you hate to check into a
hospital to get treated for an eating disorder, and have the hospital say
that you can't have a gun anymore?
>All of the known felons in the USA could be REQUIRED to bring in their
>existing drivers licenses or phot ID cards to the DMV or police and their
>ID cards would be simply and quickly modified to show they are not allowed
>to buy a gun. The modifications would also not be changeable back to
>"normal" by any non-destructive means.
>
>Since the FBI KNOWS all felons names already, this would be quick too!
>Those cards would then have a HEAVILY encrypted code placed on them that
>simply says NO to the question of "can this person buy a gun?"
New felons (prohibited persons) are being created each day. And the FBI
does NOT know they all are. The first trick would be to get the prohibited
persons in to get their DL modified at all. So a better idea would be to
encode for being legal to buy. If no code, so sale unless you can prove, or
have the FFL determine, they the person is NOT a prohibited person.
>This same thing could be done by the courts who judge someone
>mentally-ill, their license could be taken on the spot and modified!
>
>This way there would be NO reason for the FBI or any government agency to
>WASTE their time building a list of lawful gun owners, and rejecting
>criminals, the STORES could do the rejections on the spot!
If any government agency if compiling such a list, as BATF has tried to do,
then they themselves would be in violation of that which they hold so
valuable and inflexible: the law. That is until it is inconvenient for
them, then all bets are off.
>The mag data strip can easily be altered in ways that other ordinary
>card-writers would not be able to correct or to copy the data from other
>cards! You can even alter the magnetic properties of the strip in ways
>that these new card readers will recognize and that cannot be "erased".
If it is magnetic, it can be erased. Such a code would have to be a ferrous
material that would affect a magnetic field in some way, and be interpreted
by the device.
>You may be aware that our money is designed with a variety of magnetic
>properties that allows money readers to KNOW what type of bill it is by
>simply detecting the magnetic differences between bill types, or is this
>news to people?
>
>Mag-stripes can be altered in the same way and cannot be "fixed" once
>altered! However, the data can say, "yes, this guy was once not allowed to
>buy a gun, but he is now allowed to." And the strong encryption will
>prevent anyone from figuring out how to switch that data!
it would just be easier to re-issue a DL to the person, vice reprogramming
the DL. Less chance of counterfeiting.
>You can also add the requirement of hand entered data off the face of the
>ID card! This hand-entered data would be like your license number, your
>birth date, your height, etc... to provide another level of security.
>
>Well, folks, what do you think?
>
>The only way I see the government abusing this system is if they suddenly
>altered ALL drivers licenses to say "NO", but people would get wise to
>that pretty fast!
>
>The only way I can see criminals breaking this system would be if they
>were able to produce PERFECT replicas of existing state issued photo
>IDs with a photo and other personal data all matching the criminal!
>
>And if they can do this, we got much bigger problems anyway!
>
>Of course the state governments have created some pretty impressive
>anti-counterfeiting measures in their modern photo IDs, so I expect
>this will not be a problem anyway!
Given time, desire and ingenuity, some WILL be able to reproduce a DL that
would show a person is NOT prohibited.
All in all, well thought out, but has some very large flaws. Never
underestimate the counterfeiter. All this will do is again make it more
inconvenient for law abiding citizens, while not doing anything to stop the
real cause of criminals with guns, the black market. I will also
wholeheartedly agree that unless something is done, the government will do
nothing to protect your freedom to own a pistol, rifle or shotgun.
The government has no interest in seeing your rights upheld. They would
rather spend all of their resources kowtowing to every special interest
group that comes around the corner. They will stop at nothing to make sure
that the criminal has their every right maintained, all the while turning a
blind eye to the rest of society falling victim to the group that they are
protecting.
Brian Morgan
> Ok, folks, especially the anti-gun folks, how about this for an idea?
> (I think I covered all the issues or objections, but you tell me)
>
> Have ALL drivers licenses or state issued photo ID of FELONS modified
> in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this person
> may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
> unmodifiable!
Hackers are smarter than the government bureaucrats that would desing and run such
a system. The encryptrion would be broken before it's even implemented. False
ID's would kill the value pretty quick.
> The reason it MUST be in some "hidden" way is to avoid the massive
> negative reaction a "visible" "mark of shame" would get from privacy
> groups and the ACLU! The courts have made it pretty clear that any
> such visible "mark of shame" would get rejected by the courts after
> a long and expensive delay! And for good reason!
>
> Anybody seeing this "mark of shame", like an employer or landlord or
> potential lover or anyone taking a check or anyone checking ID for a
> credit card or friends or neighbors or loan officers or New Accounts
> people at the bank or bar tenders or... will ALL see this mark of shame
> and will INSTANTLY ASSUME THE WORST!
And people would develop scanners to read the card, so whenever you handed over
you "papers", they would still know. Imagine that you're an employer - look how
easy it becomes to do a "background check" on a potential employee.
> If the guy happens to have had a break-down from grief over the death of
> his children and thus went for treatment at a mental hospital because of a
> suicide attempt, that guy will have his license with the mark of shame on
> it too! ANY of the dozens and dozens of people who will see his ID from
> that day on, will ASSUME he is some child-killer and react to him as if he
> were!
>
> This is why the courts would toss out any "visible" mark of shame!
>
> My reasons for offering my system are simple.
> By presenting a realistic and workable and effective (not to mention
> cost effective) means to allow law-abiding Americans to buy guns WITHOUT
> government registrations, while calming the nerves of the anti-gun crowd
> and making sense to the un-decideds, we have a chance to KEEP gun-rights
> for the Americans who have done nothing wrong at all! And get rid of
> Brady and NICS too!
>
> All we NEED is a way that (gun dealers or anyone who goes to a gun dealer
> to check the ID of a potential buyer) can be used to determine if this
> person is eligible to buy a gun or not!
If a gun dealer can check it, so can an employer, bank, whatever...
What about innocent until proven guilty???
> Same could go for mental
> institutions making sure that patients could not buy guns. This is a group
> NOT being covered by Brady or NICS!
>
> Then the gun dealers could have a device (stand alone, NOT connected to a
> computer or phone line or antenna) to read this part of the data and KNOW
> on the spot that this guy is NOT allowed to buy a gun! This would even
> prevent a criminal from using a RENTAL gun range to get in some practice!
>
> All of the known felons in the USA could be REQUIRED
Right now they are REQUIRED to not own guns...
> to bring in their
> existing drivers licenses or phot ID cards to the DMV or police and their
> ID cards would be simply and quickly modified to show they are not allowed
> to buy a gun. The modifications would also not be changeable back to
> "normal" by any non-destructive means.
Like by a hacker.
>
>
> Since the FBI KNOWS all felons names already, this would be quick too!
> Those cards would then have a HEAVILY encrypted code placed on them that
> simply says NO to the question of "can this person buy a gun?"
>
> This same thing could be done by the courts who judge someone
> mentally-ill, their license could be taken on the spot and modified!
>
> This way there would be NO reason for the FBI or any government agency to
> WASTE their time building a list of lawful gun owners, and rejecting
> criminals, the STORES could do the rejections on the spot!
>
> These devices could be provided under contract from the FBI to all FFL gun
> dealers! They would be cheap! They would be impossible to hack or
> duplicate!
Yeah, right.
> Such technology is available today and would cost only a
> fraction of what the universal manual checks cost, even the hardware could
> be ready within a few months. Such a system could be up and running by the
> end of the year!
>
> It would be impossible to restore a modified ID back to "normal" again.
Not what you proposed earlier.
>
> It would be impossible to fake the "OK" if strong encryption was used.
Unless someone broke the encryption - probably take a couple of days.
Probably happening as you write. The state of Ohio just broke up a ring of ID
forgers that had been turning out perfect OH drivers licenses - because they
worked for the DMV, and used DMV equipment.
>
>
> And if they can do this, we got much bigger problems anyway!
>
> Of course the state governments have created some pretty impressive
> anti-counterfeiting measures in their modern photo IDs, so I expect
> this will not be a problem anyway!
>
> Comments?
>
> MT
I think you are very excited by the idea (based on the number of exclamation
points, anyway). I hate to rain on your parade, but there are too many hole - the
biggest is the high level of technology skills available on the open market,
compared to what government employees make. Do you really think the best and
brightest work for the federal government? Not meant as a slam, just being
realistic.
King Trent
any way, being tied to the Constitution of the United States by being part
of these same United States. See Sec. VI, Par. 2 regarding the "supreme
law".
King Trent
----------------
"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may
attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must occasionally be
raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of
their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their
right to keep and bear their private arms."
--Tench Coxe
Lackey Boy wrote in message <7lh996$s00$1...@hazel.dvr.com>...
Frank
While I don't like the idea of selling firearms to known felons, I like the idea
of proving innocence while conducting a legal transaction even worse.
Background checks, whether instant or not, turns around the "innocent until proven
guilty" ideal to "guilty until proven innocent".
Welcome to the belated Orwellian 1984.
The better plan is to arrest violent criminals and keep them in jail. I'm kind of
fond of the island "Absolom" in the movie "No Escape".
Still, you should send your idea to your representative, the NRA, GOA, 2nd Amend.
Foundation and your local politicos & snewspapers.
--
an intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools.
--For Whom the Bell Tolls, Ernest Hemmingway
cguinn
wrote:
>You are wrong. States may not control (legally, anyhow) gun purchases in
>any way, being tied to the Constitution of the United States by being part
>of these same United States. See Sec. VI, Par. 2 regarding the "supreme
>law".
It may not be Constitutional, but it happens!
You can't own a handgun in Morton Grove Illinois!
cguinn
"When only the police have guns, it's called a police state!" - Unknown
"Gun control is the ability to put five shots in the same hole." - Ted Nugent
The-Trainers
On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Robert F Wieland wrote:
> The anti-gunners will not consider such a system, exactly because it
> does not create a registration list.
They don't count!
The point is this system provides a system that seems to have great
advantages from the point of view of the general public ad which
the gun-haters cannot fight against without looking like the assholes
and liars that they are!
> You are still thinking gun-control
> is a debate, that both parties are interested in facts and truth and
> right.
NO, I AM NOT!
I am looking at it as a war for the votes of the people and lawmakers!
A war that the gun-haters are WINNING because they KNOW how to play
the game!
> The evidence shows otherwise. We have had federal gun control for
> 65 yrears now, and the other side's answer to the question "How much gun
> control do we need?" has not changed; the answer is still, will always be
> "More!" Your proposal is for less.
NO, My system is NOT "less" from the point of view of the general
public, it is a system that is BETTER on several levels!
We can honestly argue that Brady & NICS have huge holes in them that
are easily gotten past by criminals, but this system can replace
Brady & NICS with a system that is not only much cheaper, but also
far MORE effective towards the "goal" of preventing criminals
and the mentally ill from getting guns from lawful gun dealers
EVEN at gun shows!
We can argue that even those gun-rights people will find this system
would avoid the primary objections we have to Brady & NICS, and thus
even the NRA and other gun-rights groups won't fight against it!
We can argue that this system is Constitutional, or at least less
Un-Constitutional than Brady & NICS is. We can argue that it keeps
the FBI concentrating their efforts on criminals and not wasting
many millions and countless man-hours on law-abiding citizens!
This system side-steps BOTH sides objections while still appealing
to the majority of the public that want to make it tough on criminals!
Most Americans are not happy with the FBI actions, nor with harming
law-abiding citizens either, however, they accept this in Brady/NICS
because nobody has offered them a "solution" that ONLY effects the
criminals!
This system would give the general public something they can understand
and see that it is BETTER at the job they WANT done WITHOUT putting
heavy burdens on the other law-abiding citizens!
Oh, and the BIG bonus is that it will be a MUCH cheaper system!
Do you get it?
If we don't find a way to take the wind from the sails of the gun-haters
by a proposal that will seem "common sense" and "more effective" to
the rest of the public, the gun-haters will keep on WINNING!
WE MUST under-cut their efforts, and we MUST LEARN from their winning
methods and turn those methods to OUR benefit!
MT
Jim Mc
The-Trainers wrote:
Have ALL drivers licenses or state issued photo ID of FELONS modified
in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this person
may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
unmodifiable!
I like the idea of registering those who are not be able to buy / carry firearms...(criminals, children imcompetants) instead those who can. But I still don't buy the method...
The-Trainers
On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Frank wrote:
> That is a good idea (hidden criminal history on Driver's license) but....
What matters most is if it will appeal to enough of the public to get
passed so that we can get rid of Brady/NICS!
> While I don't like the idea of selling firearms to known felons, I like the idea
> of proving innocence while conducting a legal transaction even worse.
Oh, well, reality SUCKS! Do you have a point?
> Background checks, whether instant or not, turns around the "innocent until proven
> guilty" ideal to "guilty until proven innocent".
Gee, you ever had to show ID to cash a check? Or to use a credit card?
Or to get a job?
> Welcome to the belated Orwellian 1984.
Wake up and smell the calendar!
What would you call Brady and NICS?
> The better plan is to arrest violent criminals and keep them in jail. I'm kind of
> fond of the island "Absolom" in the movie "No Escape".
And just how realistic is that?
You think the voters are going to vote to rent out Siberia?
Look get REAL!
In an "ideal" world there would be NO CRIMINALS, so WHAT?
Your idea would be about as realistic as shooting people for Jay-walking!
Do you have a realistic comment?
> Still, you should send your idea to your representative, the NRA, GOA, 2nd Amend.
> Foundation and your local politicos & snewspapers.
I first offer it for any USEFUL comment in-case I forgot anything.
Do you have any?
MT
The-Trainers
On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Brian Morgan wrote:
> The-Trainers wrote:
>
> > Ok, folks, especially the anti-gun folks, how about this for an idea?
> > (I think I covered all the issues or objections, but you tell me)
> >
> > Have ALL drivers licenses or state issued photo ID of FELONS modified
> > in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this person
> > may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
> > unmodifiable!
>
> Hackers are smarter than the government bureaucrats that would desing and run such
> a system.
NO, the hardware would be designed by NSA or other contractors that
are experts! Hech, I might even be on the project, my company has
done such projects for the government!
> The encryptrion would be broken before it's even implemented. False
> ID's would kill the value pretty quick.
If you think that, you don't understand modern encryption!
You also don't understand magnetics either!
Think about how pissed-off the NSA and most of the USA gov is at
modern encryption methods!
Current strong encryption already is so tough to crack that even
the NSA can't break it!
I have worked on classified projects, I KNOW what I am talking about!
> > The reason it MUST be in some "hidden" way is to avoid the massive
> > negative reaction a "visible" "mark of shame" would get from privacy
> > groups and the ACLU! The courts have made it pretty clear that any
> > such visible "mark of shame" would get rejected by the courts after
> > a long and expensive delay! And for good reason!
> >
> > Anybody seeing this "mark of shame", like an employer or landlord or
> > potential lover or anyone taking a check or anyone checking ID for a
> > credit card or friends or neighbors or loan officers or New Accounts
> > people at the bank or bar tenders or... will ALL see this mark of shame
> > and will INSTANTLY ASSUME THE WORST!
> And people would develop scanners to read the card,
NO, the best anyone could do on their own would be to recognize
a card that has some of these new code on it, they could NOT
read the data without one of the FBI created scanners!
And since anyone arrested would have such changes done on their
card, the MAJORITY of those with the change would NOT be rejected
for a gun! So knowing this would be meaningless!
> so whenever you handed over you "papers", they would still know.
NO, they could NOT find out ANYTHING about what the card said!
And the ONLY THING the card would say is "YES, this person can buy a gun"
or "NO, this person cannot buy a gun" There would be NO other information!
> Imagine that you're an employer - look how
> easy it becomes to do a "background check" on a potential employee.
Again, nobody without one of these boxes could read the data,
AND the ONLY data would be a "YES" or a "NO" the REASON for the
reject would NOT be included!
> > If the guy happens to have had a break-down from grief over the death of
> > his children and thus went for treatment at a mental hospital because of a
> > suicide attempt, that guy will have his license with the mark of shame on
> > it too! ANY of the dozens and dozens of people who will see his ID from
> > that day on, will ASSUME he is some child-killer and react to him as if he
> > were!
> >
> > This is why the courts would toss out any "visible" mark of shame!
> >
> > My reasons for offering my system are simple.
> > By presenting a realistic and workable and effective (not to mention
> > cost effective) means to allow law-abiding Americans to buy guns WITHOUT
> > government registrations, while calming the nerves of the anti-gun crowd
> > and making sense to the un-decideds, we have a chance to KEEP gun-rights
> > for the Americans who have done nothing wrong at all! And get rid of
> > Brady and NICS too!
> >
> > All we NEED is a way that (gun dealers or anyone who goes to a gun dealer
> > to check the ID of a potential buyer) can be used to determine if this
> > person is eligible to buy a gun or not!
>
> If a gun dealer can check it, so can an employer, bank, whatever...
NOPE!
And if any company did get a hold of the box and used it, that would
be ILLEGAL of them! They could be fined or even charged with a crime!
The ONLY LEGAL use for the data would be for gun sellers!
Anyone else or any other reason would be guilty of a crime!
This system changes nothing, people who have been arrested for a felony
already are not allowed to buy a gun.
Once someone is arrested they have lost many of their rights, MUCH
more important than their rights to buy a gun!
They can't travel out of the area without permission!
SO TEMPORARY loss of gun-rights is small compared to the rights
they have already lost!
> > Same could go for mental
> > institutions making sure that patients could not buy guns. This is a group
> > NOT being covered by Brady or NICS!
> >
> > Then the gun dealers could have a device (stand alone, NOT connected to a
> > computer or phone line or antenna) to read this part of the data and KNOW
> > on the spot that this guy is NOT allowed to buy a gun! This would even
> > prevent a criminal from using a RENTAL gun range to get in some practice!
> >
> > All of the known felons in the USA could be REQUIRED
>
> Right now they are REQUIRED to not own guns...
Correct, but BECAUSE the laws today put a huge burden on all Americans
who want to buy a gun, this system beats the hell out of Brady/NICS!
> > to bring in their
> > existing drivers licenses or phot ID cards to the DMV or police and their
> > ID cards would be simply and quickly modified to show they are not allowed
> > to buy a gun. The modifications would also not be changeable back to
> > "normal" by any non-destructive means.
>
> Like by a hacker.
NOPE! Not even by the NSA! Ask the NSA, they are pissed about the modern
technology and how immune it is to de-coding!
> > Since the FBI KNOWS all felons names already, this would be quick too!
> > Those cards would then have a HEAVILY encrypted code placed on them that
> > simply says NO to the question of "can this person buy a gun?"
> >
> > This same thing could be done by the courts who judge someone
> > mentally-ill, their license could be taken on the spot and modified!
> >
> > This way there would be NO reason for the FBI or any government agency to
> > WASTE their time building a list of lawful gun owners, and rejecting
> > criminals, the STORES could do the rejections on the spot!
> >
> > These devices could be provided under contract from the FBI to all FFL gun
> > dealers! They would be cheap! They would be impossible to hack or
> > duplicate!
>
> Yeah, right.
YES, CORRECT!
> > Such technology is available today and would cost only a
> > fraction of what the universal manual checks cost, even the hardware could
> > be ready within a few months. Such a system could be up and running by the
> > end of the year!
> >
> > It would be impossible to restore a modified ID back to "normal" again.
>
> Not what you proposed earlier.
>
> >
> > It would be impossible to fake the "OK" if strong encryption was used.
>
> Unless someone broke the encryption - probably take a couple of days.
NO, you clearly don't have a CLUE!
That ONLY worked BECAUSE the current ID dose NOT use ANY encryption at
all!
If the IDs did use strong encryption AND the DMV used better security
methods, then this would be impossible too!
> > And if they can do this, we got much bigger problems anyway!
> >
> > Of course the state governments have created some pretty impressive
> > anti-counterfeiting measures in their modern photo IDs, so I expect
> > this will not be a problem anyway!
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> > MT
> I think you are very excited by the idea (based on the number of exclamation
> points, anyway). I hate to rain on your parade, but there are too many hole - the
> biggest is the high level of technology skills available on the open market,
> compared to what government employees make. Do you really think the best and
> brightest work for the federal government? Not meant as a slam, just being
> realistic.
NO, I have also been one of those who have worked on these projects,
I know even the ones who design these systems and have ALL the specs
CANNOT break modern encryption methods!
Al have also dealt with the NSA and I know how hard they are pushing for
methods to break modern encryption methods, but so far, NOBODY has
any means to break even the medium level encryption that is available
to the public!
MT
Amy Lewis
The-Trainers belligerantly ranted in message ...
>Oh, well, reality SUCKS! Do you have a point?
>Wake up and smell the calendar!
>And just how realistic is that?
>You think the voters are going to vote to rent out Siberia?
>Look get REAL!
>In an "ideal" world there would be NO CRIMINALS, so WHAT?
>Your idea would be about as realistic as shooting people for Jay-walking!
>Do you have a realistic comment?
Dear Mr. Trainers,
You seem to become very angry when people do not promptly and completely
agree with you. He was a lot nicer to you than you were to him, perhaps it
would be more fitting to address his comments in the same spirit, that of
civil and reasonable debate, rather than attacking him.
Amy
The-Trainers
On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, King Trent wrote:
> Not a bad idea, but I have a couple concerns.
>
> 1) You say that this data on the card would be unchangeable, yet you also
> say that it could be updated on the spot after an arrest. If it can be so
> readily changed by a portable, battery-powered unit by the police, how hard
> can it be for some bright boy to duplicate the technology? Especially with
> Radio Shacks in most mid- to large cities.
First, I said that the FACT that a card had been altered would NOT be
changeable back to "normal".
Second I said the "data" that included the "YES" or "NO" could
be changed, but ONLY by a connection to an FBI computer that
would be running the en-coding part of the strong encryption
program!
The de-coding could be done by a custom chip that could NOT be
reverse engineered, but would be VERY cheap to produce!
> 2) You talk about encryption, but think about this for a moment. If the
> data is encrypted, that means some human agency had a hand in the creation
> of either the encryption algorithm or the encryption software. What one
> person can build, another can defeat.
Well, you might want to talk to the NSA and ask them about strong
encryption and what a royal nightmare it is for them!
Modern encryption methods often work ONE WAY ONLY, that is to say, that
the person de-coding the info has no idea how to EN-code the same
message.
From my work on classified projects, I know that encryption has gone
way past the days of the "de-coder-ring" or even main-frame computers!
Why do you think the USA gov has been so deeply concerned with the
spread of strong encryption? They can't break it themselves even
with all the computers they have and all the experts!
> 3) If this is not a visible "mark of shame", but the ID will be used for
> many purposes, eventually, everyone will know about the person's problems or
> conviction(s).
NO, the ONLY people who will KNOW that the person cannot buy a gun
are gun-sellers, NOBODY else would EVER be able to find out!
It could even be made a crime to mis-use the decoder boxes for any
other purpose!
> This would probably cause the ACLU to have some serious
> privacy concerns, and they would fight the proposal on the grounds that the
> rights of these felons and mentally ill people are being violated.
They would and have fought any "visible" "mark of shame", and they
would stop any "visible" means to ID a prohibited person!
> Overall, the idea has a lot going for it. You are also right when you say
> that the all or nothing approach isn't working. The problem here lies with
> the reasons for gun control.
"reasons"?
The problem lies in IGNORANCE and FEARS of the general public!
> Government does not want to control the
> criminal element--they want to disarm the people. They will use any means
> to do this. It is for this reason that some of us believe that an all or
> nothing battle is the only way to go. If we compromise, we have lost, much
> as we have been losing all along.
Then we lose!
All or nothing ALWAYS fails!
> Of course, our nation was never truly free. It was less than a year after
> our nation's birth when the Congress was trying to repeal the Constitution,
> or amend it into uselessness.
ONLY as long as we FAILT to LEARN the lesson the gun-haters have learned!
Our rights are taken away one step at a time, they can be restored ONLY
one step at a time!
> You see, the root problem lies in that old saw about power corrupting. Our
> elected officials, once they have been elected, then divert 50% of their
> energies towards maintaining their office and the other 50% in making sure
> the rest of us can't screw it up for them.
Right, and if we present the public with an idea that seems to do what
they think they want, and does it BETTER and CHEAPER, AND avoids
the objections of us gun-rights people, then they will DEMAND that
it gets passed and Brady/NICS will die!
> That, my friend, is called tyranny, and the only way to oppose tyranny is
> 100%, no compromise, WAR.
Then we LOSE!
The Civil war accomlplished NOTHING for the people who wanted to
continue doing as they wanted, all it did is hand the USA gov
MORE power!
If the gun-rights people use warfare tactics, then the general public
will be against us, and they will SUPPORT handing MORE power to the
Federal Government!
That would be the un-avoidable results of any war over gun-rights!
MT
> --
> King Trent
> ----------------
> "As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may
> attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must occasionally be
> raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of
> their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their
> right to keep and bear their private arms."
> --Tench Coxe
>
> The-Trainers wrote in message ...
The-Trainers
On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Lackey Boy wrote:
> The-Trainers wrote in message ...
> >Ok, folks, especially the anti-gun folks, how about this for an idea?
> >(I think I covered all the issues or objections, but you tell me)
> >
> >Have ALL drivers licenses or state issued photo ID of FELONS modified
> >in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this person
> >may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
> >unmodifiable!
> It all sounds good in concept, but would be extremely hard to implement.
> Each state can place any further restrictions on firearms ownership as they
> see fit. So just restricting it to appease Brady would fail. It would have
> to be a state issued permit-type system.
NO, this would be strictly a Federal restriction system JUST like the
Federal 1968 law that started the prohibition on a federal level.
The locals would NOT have access to the encryption except as a decode,
they would need the FBI computer to alter it and the ONLY thing
the data would say is "YES" or "NO" to the Federal level question
of can this person have a gun!
> In which case, as easier method would be to have each state institue their
> own permit system, using the federal and state laws as they apply to
> determine whether a permit should be issued. Any BS waiting, I mean cooling
> off, period is handled at the state level, any required background check is
> taken care of.
This would be TOTAL state AND federal gun-owner registration that would
be FAR WORSE than Brady and NICS!
This is EXACTLY what we want to AVOID!
> The "mark of shame" does not have to be what you think. Instead of a mark
> saying that one is prohibited, you could use a mark that says that one is
> ABLE to purchase. Or, if you want a mark to indicate a prohibited person,
> then that is all it would mean. No reason need by given.
If the mark were visible, then the ACLU and many others would instantly
jump in and STOP it cold! The courts have long since shown they will
NOT accept such a system!
> But then, it begs the question, "Prohibited by federal statute, or by state
> statute, and if so, what state?" Granted, an FFL in one state cannot
> legally transfer a firearm to a resident of another state, if that person is
> prohibited in their home state, it is still worthy of consideration.
NO, the prohibition of guns for Americans is ONLY a FEDERAL prohibition!
The states cannot change this!
> I think you would find it economically unfeasible to imprint a DL with this
> info.
You failed to READ what I wrote!
It would take 2 seconds of a machine to accomplish! This would NOT cost
anything at all, and it would REMOVE the huge expense of Brady and NICS!
It would SAVE many millions maybe billions!
> As even the state issued permit can be forged, imprinting a DL would
> be just as easy, given time, desire and ingenuity.
You really don't READ do you?
I have already worked on projects that required non-copyable cards,
this is possible and it is cheap!
> >All we NEED is a way that (gun dealers or anyone who goes to a gun dealer
> >to check the ID of a potential buyer) can be used to determine if this
> >person is eligible to buy a gun or not! This does NOT just limit it to
> >felons, it also means those with mental illness and others who are
> >restricted!
> >
> >ALL gun dealers would be REQUIRED to allow their ID-checking box to be
> >used by ANYONE who wishes to sell a gun! If I wanted to sell a gun to a
> >private party, all I would have to do is go with the buyer to a gun store
> >and tell the dealer we need to do a check before a gun transaction.
> Inconventient.
BULL! Forcing all law-abiding Americans to go get a permit is what
would be!
> A state permit would suffice just as well, without
A state permit is gun-owner REGISTRATION AND THAT IS HOW THEY DO GUN
CONFISCATIONS!
> necessatating a trip to the closest FFL. But, by the same token, is good to
> require going to someone and have the info verified. Because, if a person
> does not have their DL imprinted, the buyer would still have to submit to
> the background checks and so on.
NO, the FACT that ALL criminals are KNOWN to ALREADY have their IDs
with a reject on them in the mag-strip, is all that is required!
> In my state, Iowa, you CANNOT buy a handgun without a permit issued by the
> sheriff.
Then YOU are in direct danger of having YOUR guns CONFISCATED BECAUSE
the cops and FBI and BATF KNOW WHO YOU ARE AND WHERE YOU LIVE AND
what type of guns you have!
This dangerous situation is EXACTLY what I want to AVOID!
> No permit is required for a rifle or shotgun, just a DL.
So what?
They will just start out with the handgun registration lists and
grab any other guns they find in your home!
Are you allowed to buy/sell guns directly to private parties?
Can you do it without a dealer Brady check?
Can you buy/sell on the spot at gun shows?
MY system would allow for instant gun transactions by anyone
to any non-felon and the government would NOT have any idea
the sale happened!
> Same
> federal laws apply, as well as some that are instituted by the state. the
> permit indicates thata background check has been completed, and the peron is
> legal. We have no waiting period to buy a handgun. You need only the
> permit.
And if a person with a permit does a crime?
What good are the permits? They cannot be confiscated or even found
if the holder is convicted of a felony and then gets out of jail!
IF a criminal KNOWS he is about to get convicted, he just gives
his permit to someone else to hold until he gets out, then the
permit allows him to buy a gun anyway!
Talk about a LOOPHOLE!
Not ONLY do you have total registration of gun owners, but you have
a system that allows criminals to buy guns from lawful gun sellers
even after they get out of jail for felonies!
> >My system would have several advantages over Brady and NICS!
> >
> >No need for background checks or waiting periods for law-abiding citizens!
> >The instant someone is arrested for a crime, they have their ID taken and
> >up-dated on the spot to say in the data strip that they are NOT allowed to
> >buy a gun. If they are later found not guilty, the change to their
> >license can then be altered to show an "OK". Same could go for mental
> >institutions making sure that patients could not buy guns. This is a group
> >NOT being covered by Brady or NICS!
> Just because a person checks into a mental hospital, it does not mean that
> they are a prohibited person there after.
FIRST, try READING what I WROTE for a change!
THEN TRY READING the 1968 LAW! You might LEARN something!
> Only if they are "ajudicated
> mentally incompetent" are they prohibited in this case. Otherwise, your
> idea of mental hospitals declaring persons prohibited would be a private run
> institution infringing on rights. Wouldn't you hate to check into a
> hospital to get treated for an eating disorder, and have the hospital say
> that you can't have a gun anymore?
Again, try READING the LAW and what I wrote!
I also said anyone could have their ID fixed if they were found sane
or treated and thus no longer a danger!
But READ what I WROTE OK?
> >All of the known felons in the USA could be REQUIRED to bring in their
> >existing drivers licenses or phot ID cards to the DMV or police and their
> >ID cards would be simply and quickly modified to show they are not allowed
> >to buy a gun. The modifications would also not be changeable back to
> >"normal" by any non-destructive means.
> >
> >Since the FBI KNOWS all felons names already, this would be quick too!
> >Those cards would then have a HEAVILY encrypted code placed on them that
> >simply says NO to the question of "can this person buy a gun?"
> New felons (prohibited persons) are being created each day. And the FBI
> does NOT know they all are.
THEY DO EVENTUALLY, but that is NOT the point!
The COPS KNOW who do the ARRESTING!
> The first trick would be to get the prohibited
> persons in to get their DL modified at all.
Quite simple actually, since MOST felons do continue to come into
contact with cops, it can be a crime to fail to have your ID
modified, so even minor offenses will result in detection and
ID updates!
> So a better idea would be to
> encode for being legal to buy. If no code, so sale unless you can prove, or
> have the FFL determine, they the person is NOT a prohibited person.
OK, this WOULD be better, it would be MORE expensive, and would take
longer to do, but yes, this is something that could be done at the
SAME time as the felons IDs are being updated!
But, again, you STILL need a strong encryption system and the SAME
hardware to do the checks!
> >This same thing could be done by the courts who judge someone
> >mentally-ill, their license could be taken on the spot and modified!
> >
> >This way there would be NO reason for the FBI or any government agency to
> >WASTE their time building a list of lawful gun owners, and rejecting
> >criminals, the STORES could do the rejections on the spot!
>
>
> If any government agency if compiling such a list, as BATF has tried to do,
> then they themselves would be in violation of that which they hold so
> valuable and inflexible: the law. That is until it is inconvenient for
> them, then all bets are off.
>
> >The mag data strip can easily be altered in ways that other ordinary
> >card-writers would not be able to correct or to copy the data from other
> >cards! You can even alter the magnetic properties of the strip in ways
> >that these new card readers will recognize and that cannot be "erased".
> If it is magnetic, it can be erased. Such a code would have to be a ferrous
> material that would affect a magnetic field in some way, and be interpreted
> by the device.
You don't really understand about magnetics!
YES, data can be stored in any sort of magnetic medium, but not all
magnetic mediums are the same and they don't all read the same.
The different properties can be detected by machines, but NOT
be the human eye or any other visual means!
And that is what I am talking about!
These magnetic properties can be altered by various means that cannot
be corrected back to "normal" again!
> >You may be aware that our money is designed with a variety of magnetic
> >properties that allows money readers to KNOW what type of bill it is by
> >simply detecting the magnetic differences between bill types, or is this
> >news to people?
> >
> >Mag-stripes can be altered in the same way and cannot be "fixed" once
> >altered! However, the data can say, "yes, this guy was once not allowed to
> >buy a gun, but he is now allowed to." And the strong encryption will
> >prevent anyone from figuring out how to switch that data!
> it would just be easier to re-issue a DL to the person, vice reprogramming
> the DL. Less chance of counterfeiting.
There is a much smaller number of criminals than law-abiding citizens,
by altering with a quick & cheap machine, it would save many millions.
And there would be NO chance of counterfeiting modern IDs unless
the DMV employees are not controlled properly!
If the DMV people are not being watched or the blank ID process
is not properly secure, then we got much bigger problems anyway!
> >You can also add the requirement of hand entered data off the face of the
> >ID card! This hand-entered data would be like your license number, your
> >birth date, your height, etc... to provide another level of security.
> >
> >Well, folks, what do you think?
> >
> >The only way I see the government abusing this system is if they suddenly
> >altered ALL drivers licenses to say "NO", but people would get wise to
> >that pretty fast!
> >
> >The only way I can see criminals breaking this system would be if they
> >were able to produce PERFECT replicas of existing state issued photo
> >IDs with a photo and other personal data all matching the criminal!
> >
> >And if they can do this, we got much bigger problems anyway!
> >
> >Of course the state governments have created some pretty impressive
> >anti-counterfeiting measures in their modern photo IDs, so I expect
> >this will not be a problem anyway!
> Given time, desire and ingenuity, some WILL be able to reproduce a DL that
> would show a person is NOT prohibited.
ONLY with the aid of bad security on the part of DMV!
And if they can make fake IDs, then NO system would work!
> All in all, well thought out, but has some very large flaws.
If so, you have not pointed out any!
> Never underestimate the counterfeiter.
I don't, but don't underestimate modern IDs either!
Why do you think the criminals have been going out and trying to bribe DMV
people to help make IDs? The modern IDs have reached a point where they
are virtually impossible to copy!
> All this will do is again make it more
> inconvenient for law abiding citizens,
MORE than the total out-lawing of PRIVATE gun sales?
MORE than BRADY & NICS?
You CLEARLY don't comprehend how things are already!
Right NOW private sales are virtually impossible in most places!
Right NOW ALL gun sales result in the FBI and the BATF KNOWING
about each gun sold!
My system will allow gun sales to continue without the FBI or BATF
or COPS knowing about them!
> while not doing anything to stop the
> real cause of criminals with guns, the black market.
I don't care about that!
I care about getting RID of Brady and NICS!
> I will also
> wholeheartedly agree that unless something is done, the government will do
> nothing to protect your freedom to own a pistol, rifle or shotgun.
Right, and MY system looks like a MUCH better idea than Brady & NICS
and will result in MORE freedom, NOT less!
> The government has no interest in seeing your rights upheld. They would
> rather spend all of their resources kowtowing to every special interest
> group that comes around the corner. They will stop at nothing to make sure
> that the criminal has their every right maintained, all the while turning a
> blind eye to the rest of society falling victim to the group that they are
> protecting.
RIGHT, that is why MY idea is BETTER!
The general public will see the VALUE in it, and see it as BETTER
and CHEAPER than Brady & NICS and it will seem to be a dream
solution come true!
If we don't come up with our own solutions that are BETTER, than
Brady & NICS and the EVIL PERMITS, then we will LOSE our gun-rights
one inch at a time!
MT
Amy Lewis
The-Trainers wrote in message ...
>Have ALL drivers licenses or state issued photo ID of FELONS modified
>in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this person
>may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
>unmodifiable
As inumerable hackers have amply demonstrated no data is hack-proof. I
should know, I've been a VMS system administrator for long enough to have
experienced their skills first hand. I think the first suggestion I'd like
to make is not to put the encrypted marker on the magstripe of the driver's
license, where a hacker can most easily get at it and alter it, but rather
keep that data in an online system at the DMV that responds to the card
being swiped through the reader at the gun store by looking up the bearer
of the license in an online database and verifying whether or not this
person is authorized to purchase the gun.
>The reason it MUST be in some "hidden" way is to avoid the massive
>negative reaction a "visible" "mark of shame" would get from privacy
>groups and the ACLU!
All the more reason not to have it on the license at all, but in a remote
system instead.
>If the guy happens to have had a break-down from grief over the death of
>his children and thus went for treatment at a mental hospital because of a
>suicide attempt, that guy will have his license with the mark of shame on
>it too! ANY of the dozens and dozens of people who will see his ID from
>that day on, will ASSUME he is some child-killer and react to him as if he
>were!
You continue to make my case.
>By presenting a realistic and workable and effective (not to mention
>cost effective) means to allow law-abiding Americans to buy guns WITHOUT
>government registrations, while calming the nerves of the anti-gun crowd
>and making sense to the un-decideds, we have a chance to KEEP gun-rights
>for the Americans who have done nothing wrong at all! And get rid of
>Brady and NICS too!
This assumes that the agenda of the anti-gunners is what they say it is.
Many of us feel it is a far more sinister one, that of disarming the people
of this country preparatory to the institution of a police state and the
abolition of the Bill of Rights.
Given the actions of the State Government here in Kalifornia it looks very
much like that. Of course this is just here in Kalifornia, but that
aldulterous liar in the White House is backing them up on it too.
I used to think people who thought the country was headed in this direction
were just being paranoid, and that it would never happen, but the flat-out
unconstitutional actions of Governor Gray Davis, and Attorney General Dan
Lundgren have convinced me otherwise, and it frightens me to see that the
balloon may indeed soon go up.
>ALL gun dealers would be REQUIRED to allow their ID-checking box to be
>used by ANYONE who wishes to sell a gun! If I wanted to sell a gun to a
>private party, all I would have to do is go with the buyer to a gun store
>and tell the dealer we need to do a check before a gun transaction.
I think this is very sensible, as long as that verification is not encoded
on the magstripe of the driver's license, but on a remote instead, much like
your credit card limit.
>The dealer would be required to point out his checking box and allow me to
>use it to PERSONALLY check the ID of the buyer then you would have done
>ALL you would be required to do! NO FURTHER INVOLVEMENT WITH ANYONE!
Well it sounds good to me, but there others who won't like it, namely the
governmental beauracracy, which takes in a LOT of cash from the present
arrangement in the form of FFL fees and other forms of revenue. If you make
it this simple they have fewer reasons to charge you money, and they don't
like that!
>I realize that it is not the ideal "perfect solution", like eliminating
>all gun-control laws, however, my idea is one that will remove the
>primary threats to our rights and have a great chance of being passed!
I think perhaps you have failed to recognize the real primary threat to our
rights, as well as the real agenda of the gun-grabbers.
>Then the gun dealers could have a device (stand alone, NOT connected to a
>computer or phone line or antenna) to read this part of the data and KNOW
>on the spot that this guy is NOT allowed to buy a gun! This would even
>prevent a criminal from using a RENTAL gun range to get in some practice!
I have already pointed out the flaw in this. Criminals can defeat any such
system given time and a sufficient motive. Guns are one of the most powerful
inducements there are for them, and if the criminals can engrave the plates
for a $20 bill they can certainly find a way around this magstripe. All you
can do is make it harder for them by keeping the data flags on a remote
system instead of on the card where it is immediately accessable to those
who would hack and modify it.
Given enough different driver's licenses to record the magstripes from a
sufficiently enterprising hacker could compare them and figure out the
encryption scheme, and you can be sure that someone somewhere would be
working on cracking it the very instant a specimen was available.
Even given that such a scheme could be made acceptably effective it doesn't
get us around the problem of those who buy guns for others, as Eric Harris's
girlfriend did.
>All of the known felons in the USA could be REQUIRED to bring in their
>existing drivers licenses or phot ID cards to the DMV or police and their
>ID cards would be simply and quickly modified to show they are not allowed
>to buy a gun.
Better still, if the data flags on are on the remote system we don't even
have to have them come in. How many of them do you suppose are likely to
come in to have their chances of getting a gun taken from them? Just flag
them on the DMV's computers instead.
>The modifications would also not be changeable back to
>"normal" by any non-destructive means.
You are positing a non-existent technology here. Data on a magstripe is very
easily modified.You don't even have to decode it, all you need to know is
which fields are which, and you can copy the authorization field from one to
the other during the rewriting of the stripe. Of course you could also
interleave the data, but again it would not be long before this too was
hacked as the algorythm that writes it would have to lay down the data in a
symetrical pattern and that could be deduced in short order given enough
specimens.
You could record the contents of the stripe before attempting to modify it
so that if you goofed it up and it didn't work you could always put it back
the way it was. No problem, its just a magstripe and it will take whatever
you write to it. Naturally the criminals will have readers as soon as they
are made available to anyone at all, and they will use them to take the
encryption scheme apart and find out what makes it tick.
>Since the FBI KNOWS all felons names already, this would be quick too!
Sure would, they could just transmit that data to the DMV and have their
records flagged on the DMV's system. A far more elegant scheme, to say
nothing of far cheaper to execute for us taxpayers. Development of the
scheme you propose, *if* it could be done, would likely cost an ungodly
amount and entail frightening cost overruns and delays.
Instead, just have the FBI update the DMV's files by wire transaction the
way bank funds are transmitted using technology already in place, then have
the applicant swipe his license through a credit card reader style device
which behaves very much the same, checking with the DMV, or even the FBI's
systems to either authorize of deny the purchase.
>This way there would be NO reason for the FBI or any government agency to
>WASTE their time building a list of lawful gun owners, and rejecting
>criminals, the STORES could do the rejections on the spot!
But wait, you assert elsewhere that the FBI *already* knows who all the
felons are! Are you now proposing that they should no longer bother to keep
track of them? Not likely. Also I very seriously doubt that the Federal
authorities are going to consent to this kind of low-level authorization for
the purchase of firearms, especially in view of how easily it can be
defeated and corrupted.
>It would be impossible to restore a modified ID back to "normal" again.
Have you invented something new? I've never yet heard of such a thing. Its a
piece of cake to rewrite a magstripe. Again, you are positing a non-existent
technology.
>It would be impossible to fake the "OK" if strong encryption was used.
Wrong. You are making absolute and unfounded statements based on an imagined
technology.
>It would also make the info UNAVAILABLE to anyone else!
How so? The information is available to anyone who can get their hands on
the card.
>It would be simple for the police to have special card writers
Provided the technology your are imagining up here can be invented, however
it's worth considering that it would be very simple for the criminals to
have them too. All they have to do is hold up a place that has one and grab
it, or better still, get one from a corrupt official who is in their
pocket. Of course it might take them a while to pull this off, perhap even
as long as several minutes.
>linked with FBI computers that would allow the police to alter the data
>to once again allow a person to buy a gun if the reason they were
>denied went away!
Again, this could be done over the networks between the FBI's computers and
the DMV's.
>The mag data strip can easily be altered in ways that other ordinary
>card-writers would not be able to correct or to copy the data from other
>cards! You can even alter the magnetic properties of the strip in ways
>that these new card readers will recognize and that cannot be "erased".
Please let us know when you have invented a magstripe with these amazing
properties. I'm sure you will become very rich as a result.
Before I became the System Administrator for the central business computing
system for the University of San Francisco I managed their campus one-card
system, and I modified and rewrote magstripes daily as well as managing and
manipulating the databases used in this system. I learned a lot about the
technology involved and it has not significanlty changed since. There is
nothing like the sort of technology you imagine to be impervious to
modification.
>
>Mag-stripes can be altered in the same way and cannot be "fixed" once
>altered!
I believe I can understand why you might say such a thing, and of course,
its because you are wrong.
>Well, folks, what do you think?
Well I think you present your arguments and theories very forcefully (to say
nothing of repetitively) and are so enamoured of your own ideas that you
fail to think them through far enough to see the flaws in them or do the
homework necessary to remedy the flaws that exist in them. It is also clear
that you have rather heavily invested your ego in the ideas and opinions you
present here.
In reading your other posts it becomes clear that you do not like being
disagreed with at all, and respond in a hostile manner when others fail to
immediately agree with your opinions and assertions, many of which you
present quite vehemently as fact, without presenting cogent arguments in
support of them.
Its was your hostile response to Frank, who was really quite civil to you,
which induced me to read your post on this topic, and I expect you will also
become hostile towards me for failing to agree with you. Please feel free to
do so.
Since I've little interest in exposing myself to the treatment you gave
Frank, and since it will in no way serve me to debate one having your
attitudes and mindset I shall happily pre-empt your response.
<PLONK!>
You may fire at will.
Amy
King Trent
ignorant. Of the Constitution, of their history, of the nation's history,
of everything but what movie the are going to see, where to go on vacation,
what brand of car to buy this year, etc. Priorities, man, priorities. :-(
--
King Trent
----------------
"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may
attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must occasionally be
raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of
their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their
right to keep and bear their private arms."
--Tench Coxe
cguinn wrote in message <377d2e6d....@207.230.32.3>...
cguinn
wrote:
<snip>
>The de-coding could be done by a custom chip that could NOT be
>reverse engineered, but would be VERY cheap to produce!
Anything that is hard-coded CAN be reverse engineered!
Modern strong encryption (Like PGP) uses a key that is not hard coded,
that's why it's so hard to break. If there is a "master key" that can
read the data hard-coded into a chip, it CAN be reverse engineered!
>> 2) You talk about encryption, but think about this for a moment. If the
>> data is encrypted, that means some human agency had a hand in the creation
>> of either the encryption algorithm or the encryption software. What one
>> person can build, another can defeat.
>
>Well, you might want to talk to the NSA and ask them about strong
>encryption and what a royal nightmare it is for them!
Because the key is not hard-coded! There are two keys in PGP, a
public and a private. The public key can only decode, the private key
can also ENCODE. That's why you never give your private key to
anyone!
>Modern encryption methods often work ONE WAY ONLY, that is to say, that
>the person de-coding the info has no idea how to EN-code the same
>message.
You'd be surprised at the ingenuity of some hackers!
The SETI project is currently using distributed-computing to analyze
the results of their search for "ET". At the moment, something like
1900 YEARS of computer time has been donated to their search by
private citizens! Get enough hackers working together over the
Internet, and even STRONG encryption like 4096-bit DSS/Diffie-Hellman
may be cracked sooner than ever expected!
>From my work on classified projects, I know that encryption has gone
>way past the days of the "de-coder-ring" or even main-frame computers!
>
>Why do you think the USA gov has been so deeply concerned with the
>spread of strong encryption? They can't break it themselves even
>with all the computers they have and all the experts!
Because it is not hard-coded! It is dynamic and the key can be
changed at a whim! They aren't worried about people re-encoding data
on some card, they're worried about them not being able to DECODE the
info!
The-Trainers
On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Jim Mc wrote:
> The-Trainers wrote:
> > Have ALL drivers licenses or state issued photo ID of FELONS modified
> > in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this person
> > may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
> > unmodifiable!
>
> I like the idea of registering those who are not be able to buy / carry
> firearms...(criminals, children imcompetants) instead those who can. But I still
> don't buy the method...
Would you rather have Brady and NICS?
MT
The-Trainers
On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Amy Lewis wrote:
> Dear Mr. Trainers,
>
> You seem to become very angry when people do not promptly and completely
> agree with you. He was a lot nicer to you than you were to him, perhaps it
> would be more fitting to address his comments in the same spirit, that of
> civil and reasonable debate, rather than attacking him.
He got as he said, when people CLEARLY failed to read what I wrote
then say silly things as a result of that failure, they can expect
some response about that!
MT
The-Trainers
On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Amy Lewis wrote:
> The-Trainers wrote in message ...
>
> >Have ALL drivers licenses or state issued photo ID of FELONS modified
> >in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this person
> >may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
> >unmodifiable
> As inumerable hackers have amply demonstrated no data is hack-proof. I
> should know, I've been a VMS system administrator for long enough to have
> experienced their skills first hand.
So, your old and well known Dec operating system VMS has evolved from what
I knew into a strong encryption system?
Why do you imagine the NSA is so upset about strong encryption?
Even medium levels of modern encryption are classified as "Munitions"
because they pose a serious threat to national security!
The encryption scemes I have worked with on classified projects cannot
even be broken by the NSA as yet with all their computers and experts!
> I think the first suggestion I'd like
> to make is not to put the encrypted marker on the magstripe of the driver's
> license, where a hacker can most easily get at it and alter it, but rather
> keep that data in an online system at the DMV that responds to the card
> being swiped through the reader at the gun store by looking up the bearer
> of the license in an online database and verifying whether or not this
> person is authorized to purchase the gun.
And what is to keep someone from altering the ORDINARY data on his
REJECT ID to a copy of the ID from an ORDINARY OK ID?
In any case, you have defeated the primary purpose of my idea, which is to
get the government out of our business!
What you are saying is EXACTLY the same as NICS!
And that is the danger!
NICS is gun-owner registration, and that is the EVIL we need to end!
> >The reason it MUST be in some "hidden" way is to avoid the massive
> >negative reaction a "visible" "mark of shame" would get from privacy
> >groups and the ACLU!
> All the more reason not to have it on the license at all, but in a remote
> system instead.
IF ANY remote system is involved, that will be EXACTLY like NICS!
Gun owner registration!
> >If the guy happens to have had a break-down from grief over the death of
> >his children and thus went for treatment at a mental hospital because of a
> >suicide attempt, that guy will have his license with the mark of shame on
> >it too! ANY of the dozens and dozens of people who will see his ID from
> >that day on, will ASSUME he is some child-killer and react to him as if he
> >were!
> You continue to make my case.
And you keep missing mine!
> >By presenting a realistic and workable and effective (not to mention
> >cost effective) means to allow law-abiding Americans to buy guns WITHOUT
> >government registrations, while calming the nerves of the anti-gun crowd
> >and making sense to the un-decideds, we have a chance to KEEP gun-rights
> >for the Americans who have done nothing wrong at all! And get rid of
> >Brady and NICS too!
> This assumes that the agenda of the anti-gunners is what they say it is.
NO, this assumes that they have told a LIE that the public have bought!
If WE USE their LIES and then provide a system that addresses the fear
they have created, but allows us law-abiding some of our freedom
back, then we have begun the step by step process of winning back our
rights!
> Many of us feel it is a far more sinister one, that of disarming the people
> of this country preparatory to the institution of a police state and the
> abolition of the Bill of Rights.
Right, and unless we provide the public with a system they will like
BETTER than Brady/NICS, they will win and we will lose!
> Given the actions of the State Government here in Kalifornia it looks very
> much like that. Of course this is just here in Kalifornia, but that
> aldulterous liar in the White House is backing them up on it too.
See above!
> I used to think people who thought the country was headed in this direction
> were just being paranoid, and that it would never happen, but the flat-out
> unconstitutional actions of Governor Gray Davis, and Attorney General Dan
> Lundgren have convinced me otherwise, and it frightens me to see that the
> balloon may indeed soon go up.
See above!
> >ALL gun dealers would be REQUIRED to allow their ID-checking box to be
> >used by ANYONE who wishes to sell a gun! If I wanted to sell a gun to a
> >private party, all I would have to do is go with the buyer to a gun store
> >and tell the dealer we need to do a check before a gun transaction.
> I think this is very sensible, as long as that verification is not encoded
> on the magstripe of the driver's license, but on a remote instead, much like
> your credit card limit.
NOPE! All you are doing is EXACTLY the same as NICS! All gun-buyers will
end up in a government computer with the exact date/time/place they
bought a gun!
You have solved nothing unless you make the system NON-remote!
> >The dealer would be required to point out his checking box and allow me to
> >use it to PERSONALLY check the ID of the buyer then you would have done
> >ALL you would be required to do! NO FURTHER INVOLVEMENT WITH ANYONE!
> Well it sounds good to me, but there others who won't like it, namely the
> governmental beauracracy, which takes in a LOT of cash from the present
> arrangement in the form of FFL fees and other forms of revenue. If you make
> it this simple they have fewer reasons to charge you money, and they don't
> like that!
Who cares, what counts is the people will want it, because it seems better
and more effective than NICS/Brady!
FFL fees will NOT be effected!
NOTHING changes EXCEPT the elimination of the waiting period and the
"registration" background checks!
If the government insisted on a use fee, fine, even private sales
checking IDs could collect a use fee.
That still would be FAR better than we have today!
> >I realize that it is not the ideal "perfect solution", like eliminating
> >all gun-control laws, however, my idea is one that will remove the
> >primary threats to our rights and have a great chance of being passed!
> I think perhaps you have failed to recognize the real primary threat to our
> rights, as well as the real agenda of the gun-grabbers.
YOU CERTAINLY DID!
The computer records of gun-owner registration that will occur if ANY
on-line method is used!
I KNOW exactly what they are up to, but unless we make moves that will
have a good chance of passing, WE WILL LOSE!
> >Then the gun dealers could have a device (stand alone, NOT connected to a
> >computer or phone line or antenna) to read this part of the data and KNOW
> >on the spot that this guy is NOT allowed to buy a gun! This would even
> >prevent a criminal from using a RENTAL gun range to get in some practice!
> I have already pointed out the flaw in this. Criminals can defeat any such
> system given time and a sufficient motive. Guns are one of the most powerful
> inducements there are for them, and if the criminals can engrave the plates
> for a $20 bill
You seem to be way behind the times!
Have there been ANY $20 bills that can fool magnetic readers?
Not that I have EVER heard of!
And the modern $20s are even better!
> they can certainly find a way around this magstripe.
You need to do some more reading on magnetics and encryption!
Current books and technical mags.
> All you
> can do is make it harder for them by keeping the data flags on a remote
> system instead of on the card where it is immediately accessable to those
> who would hack and modify it.
ANY use of a remote system makes it pointless to make such a syste at all!
The whole POINT is to REMOVE the need for a remote system!
The remote system IS gun-owner registration!
> Given enough different driver's licenses to record the magstripes from a
> sufficiently enterprising hacker could compare them and figure out the
> encryption scheme, and you can be sure that someone somewhere would be
> working on cracking it the very instant a specimen was available.
Sure, but they won't break it!
> Even given that such a scheme could be made acceptably effective it doesn't
> get us around the problem of those who buy guns for others, as Eric Harris's
> girlfriend did.
I NEVER claimed that! I only claim my system would be MUCH BETTER
than Brady/NICS and it would have a great chance of passing!
> >All of the known felons in the USA could be REQUIRED to bring in their
> >existing drivers licenses or phot ID cards to the DMV or police and their
> >ID cards would be simply and quickly modified to show they are not allowed
> >to buy a gun.
> Better still, if the data flags on are on the remote system we don't even
> have to have them come in. How many of them do you suppose are likely to
> come in to have their chances of getting a gun taken from them? Just flag
> them on the DMV's computers instead.
Again, the SAME as NICS, gun-owner registration by computer records!
> >The modifications would also not be changeable back to
> >"normal" by any non-destructive means.
> You are positing a non-existent technology here.
NOPE!
Such methods are commonly in-use, even in our money! That is why you can't
fool a money reader about what type of bill you feed it!
> Data on a magstripe is very easily modified.
IF YOUR "reader" is able to do so, yes.
But IF you don't know how to en-code the data, it won't do you any good!
>You don't even have to decode it, all you need to know is
> which fields are which,
And if there ARE NO fields?
If it is all one huge mess of bits that inter-relate and would be
totally different on EACH license?
> and you can copy the authorization field from one to
> the other during the rewriting of the stripe.
And if it requires a very special reader/writer to do the job?
> Of course you could also interleave the data, but again it would not be
> long before this too was hacked as the algorythm that writes it would
> have to lay down the data in a symetrical pattern and that could be
> deduced in short order given enough specimens.
ALL the data would just look like white noise to anyone looking at it.
There would be NO pattern to follow or find!
YOU REALLY are WAY behind on technology!
> You could record the contents of the stripe before attempting to modify it
> so that if you goofed it up and it didn't work you could always put it back
> the way it was.
For beginners, you would have to STEAL one of the boxes, you would need
the security code to make the box work, then you would need some pretty
expensive equipment to watch the data stream, assuming you could open the
box without destroying it, then you would have to reverse-engineer
the silicon reader heads to figure out how the data is coming off the
card, then you would have to analyze a huge mass of data that would
be totally different from card to card...
THEN you would NEED a special card writer system that ONLY the cops
or DMV would have, that would ONLY operate via FBI conputer...
You just don't get modern technology!
> No problem, its just a magstripe and it will take whatever
> you write to it.
HOW you write and what you write is the key, and that cannot
be faked in my system!
> Naturally the criminals will have readers as soon as they
> are made available to anyone at all,
Yes, they will have to steal them!
They will also need an activation code, this code could be different
each day if required.
> and they will use them to take the
> encryption scheme apart and find out what makes it tick.
NOT A CHANCE! They won't even be able to open the boxes without
destroying them!
> >Since the FBI KNOWS all felons names already, this would be quick too!
> Sure would, they could just transmit that data to the DMV and have their
> records flagged on the DMV's system.
I assume you FORGOT that computer links can work BOTH WAYS!
Your system would simply allow the government to have a computer
record od all gun sales and all gun buyers like they do with NICS!
> A far more elegant scheme, to say
> nothing of far cheaper to execute for us taxpayers.
NICS is expensive, my system would be cheap by comparison!
> Development of the
> scheme you propose, *if* it could be done, would likely cost an ungodly
> amount and entail frightening cost overruns and delays.
NOPE!
The system would be far cheaper than NICS! And it could be ready
to operate in 6 months!
> Instead, just have the FBI update the DMV's files by wire transaction the
> way bank funds are transmitted using technology already in place, then have
> the applicant swipe his license through a credit card reader style device
> which behaves very much the same, checking with the DMV, or even the FBI's
> systems to either authorize of deny the purchase.
And the FBI would be able t do the same in reverse!
They would have access to all gun transactions by ANY remote system!
> >This way there would be NO reason for the FBI or any government agency to
> >WASTE their time building a list of lawful gun owners, and rejecting
> >criminals, the STORES could do the rejections on the spot!
> But wait, you assert elsewhere that the FBI *already* knows who all the
> felons are! Are you now proposing that they should no longer bother to keep
> track of them?
You clearly failed to read what I wrote!
> Not likely. Also I very seriously doubt that the Federal
> authorities are going to consent to this kind of low-level authorization for
> the purchase of firearms, especially in view of how easily it can be
> defeated and corrupted.
Well, you are dead wrong about the "ease" of breaking it, you are years
behind in your reading!
And the FBI does NOT get to VOTE!
> >It would be impossible to restore a modified ID back to "normal" again.
> Have you invented something new? I've never yet heard of such a thing. Its a
> piece of cake to rewrite a magstripe. Again, you are positing a non-existent
> technology.
NOPE!
Common technology! You are just behind the times!
> >It would be impossible to fake the "OK" if strong encryption was used.
> Wrong. You are making absolute and unfounded statements based on an imagined
> technology.
NOPE!
You are behind the times!
> >It would also make the info UNAVAILABLE to anyone else!
> How so? The information is available to anyone who can get their hands on
> the card.
They cannot de-code the info, and thus it makes no difference!
> >It would be simple for the police to have special card writers
> Provided the technology your are imagining up here can be invented,
IT exists today and has for YEARS!
> however
> it's worth considering that it would be very simple for the criminals to
> have them too.
NOPE!
And even IF they stole the boxes, it would do them NO GOOD!
> All they have to do is hold up a place that has one and grab
> it, or better still, get one from a corrupt official who is in their
> pocket.
The readers, yes, the writers NOPE! They would ONLY operate by remote!
See, setting the "reject" or the "ok" on the ID would require FBI
computers.
> Of course it might take them a while to pull this off, perhap even
> as long as several minutes.
Well, if the NSA cannot break it, I doubt criminals will!
> >linked with FBI computers that would allow the police to alter the data
> >to once again allow a person to buy a gun if the reason they were
> >denied went away!
> Again, this could be done over the networks between the FBI's computers and
> the DMV's.
NO, this is the CRITICAL part that may ONLY be done from a central system!
This is the super secure part of the system!
The program that does the encoding is the top secret part!
> >The mag data strip can easily be altered in ways that other ordinary
> >card-writers would not be able to correct or to copy the data from other
> >cards! You can even alter the magnetic properties of the strip in ways
> >that these new card readers will recognize and that cannot be "erased".
> Please let us know when you have invented a magstripe with these amazing
> properties. I'm sure you will become very rich as a result.
It exists and has for years!
> Before I became the System Administrator for the central business computing
> system for the University of San Francisco I managed their campus one-card
> system, and I modified and rewrote magstripes daily as well as managing and
> manipulating the databases used in this system. I learned a lot about the
> technology involved and it has not significanlty changed since. There is
> nothing like the sort of technology you imagine to be impervious to
> modification.
That is ordinary mag readers/writers that have ALL been designed to
CONFORM to an ARBITRARY industry standard! The ONLY reason you can
do this is because all the mag-stripe reader makers have AGREED
to keep to the SAME standards!
This does NOT mean ALL mag readers/writers MUST be compatible, they
can be totally different and non-compatible!
> >Mag-stripes can be altered in the same way and cannot be "fixed" once
> >altered!
> I believe I can understand why you might say such a thing, and of course,
> its because you are wrong.
I see that you are still both ignorant about how magnetic media works
AND about modern methods!
> >Well, folks, what do you think?
> Well I think you present your arguments and theories very forcefully (to say
> nothing of repetitively) and are so enamoured of your own ideas that you
> fail to think them through far enough to see the flaws in them or do the
> homework necessary to remedy the flaws that exist in them. It is also clear
> that you have rather heavily invested your ego in the ideas and opinions you
> present here.
I would say EXACTLY the same to you!
> In reading your other posts it becomes clear that you do not like being
> disagreed with at all, and respond in a hostile manner when others fail to
> immediately agree with your opinions and assertions, many of which you
> present quite vehemently as fact, without presenting cogent arguments in
> support of them.
Mostly for those who fail to read what I wrote, in your case it is
because you clearly are behind in your reading of other technical
information!
MT
The-Trainers
On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, cguinn wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:23:46 -0700, The-Trainers <trai...@best.com>
> wrote:
>
> >The de-coding could be done by a custom chip that could NOT be
> >reverse engineered, but would be VERY cheap to produce!
> Anything that is hard-coded CAN be reverse engineered!
NOPE!
Even assuming you stole a box and the activation codes, you
would still NOT be able to read the data, and even IF you could
see the data stream, you would never be able to know what the
data said.
And then you have the problem of getting a writer!
> Modern strong encryption (Like PGP) uses a key that is not hard coded,
> that's why it's so hard to break. If there is a "master key" that can
> read the data hard-coded into a chip, it CAN be reverse engineered!
NOPE!
You just don't understand how such secure devices work or how they are
built!
For one thing, you could never take one apart without destroying it in
the process!
> >> 2) You talk about encryption, but think about this for a moment. If the
> >> data is encrypted, that means some human agency had a hand in the creation
> >> of either the encryption algorithm or the encryption software. What one
> >> person can build, another can defeat.
> >
> >Well, you might want to talk to the NSA and ask them about strong
> >encryption and what a royal nightmare it is for them!
> Because the key is not hard-coded! There are two keys in PGP, a
> public and a private. The public key can only decode, the private key
> can also ENCODE. That's why you never give your private key to
> anyone!
WOW!
The first guy that seems to know about this!
Correct!
And IF the "key" is buried deep inside a custom chip that is not
accessible in any manner?
And if the box only works when a code is entered each day?
And when the box is built to break apart in little bits or is just
one big block of hard EPOXY glue?
> >Modern encryption methods often work ONE WAY ONLY, that is to say, that
> >the person de-coding the info has no idea how to EN-code the same
> >message.
> You'd be surprised at the ingenuity of some hackers!
Oh, I know, but even the NSA is PISSED and scared to death of current
encryption methods!
> The SETI project is currently using distributed-computing to analyze
> the results of their search for "ET". At the moment, something like
> 1900 YEARS of computer time has been donated to their search by
> private citizens!
You do realize they are looking for a signal that ET WANTS people to
be able to read? And heck, they don't even NEED to be able to "read"
the message, they just have to KNOW that it is NOT possibly a
naturally created signal to have done their job! Even if we NEVER
figure out the message, just the fact that it is a REAL signal will
be enough!
> Get enough hackers working together over the
> Internet, and even STRONG encryption like 4096-bit DSS/Diffie-Hellman
> may be cracked sooner than ever expected!
Assuming they DO have enough access to enough real data streams and
they have enough coordinated effort put behind it AND they can
get the hardware and...
Not bloody likely!
> >From my work on classified projects, I know that encryption has gone
> >way past the days of the "de-coder-ring" or even main-frame computers!
> >
> >Why do you think the USA gov has been so deeply concerned with the
> >spread of strong encryption? They can't break it themselves even
> >with all the computers they have and all the experts!
> Because it is not hard-coded!
NOPE!
Hard coded keys can also be unbreakable because they cannot be accessed!
> It is dynamic and the key can be
> changed at a whim! They aren't worried about people re-encoding data
> on some card, they're worried about them not being able to DECODE the
> info!
Well, if you REALLY think you need a dynamic system, how's this,
each day, the store gets a fax with a new key for them to type in
to use for that day!
That any better?
MT
Brian Morgan
> You are way behind the technology!
>
> Why do you imagine the NSA is so upset about strong encryption?
Because the criminals have a higher level of skill than does the NSA, of course.
> Even medium levels of modern encryption are classified as "Munitions"
> because they pose a serious threat to national security!
Again, because the "bad guys" always seem to have more skills than government
workers...
> The encryption scemes I have worked with on classified projects cannot
> even be broken by the NSA as yet with all their computers and experts!
See above!!! and more !!!
> Have there been ANY $20 bills that can fool magnetic readers?
>
> Not that I have EVER heard of!
They don't have to fool magnetic readers, they have to fool people. And the do
frequently. or !!
> And the modern $20s are even better!
See above !!!
>
> For beginners, you would have to STEAL one of the boxes, you would need
> the security code to make the box work, then you would need some pretty
> expensive equipment to watch the data stream, assuming you could open the
> box without destroying it, then you would have to reverse-engineer
> the silicon reader heads to figure out how the data is coming off the
> card, then you would have to analyze a huge mass of data that would
> be totally different from card to card...
Or you would have to work for the lowest bidder contractor that designs them, or
builds a piece of them, of have a cousin who's barber's brother-in-law used to
date an employee...
> THEN you would NEED a special card writer system that ONLY the cops
> or DMV would have, that would ONLY operate via FBI conputer...
See above...
> You just don't get modern technology!
You just don't get the lowest bidder scenario! !! !!! !!!!!
>
>
> > No problem, its just a magstripe and it will take whatever
> > you write to it.
>
> HOW you write and what you write is the key, and that cannot
> be faked in my system!
>
> > Naturally the criminals will have readers as soon as they
> > are made available to anyone at all,
>
> Yes, they will have to steal them!
Some of them are called criminals because they DO steal! Look, it's not a bad
idea, but the facts are that to work, it would require perfect security,
encryption that can't be broken even by the developer, and a sense of logic in the
federal government means it's doomed to falure.
Brian
Jorge Landivar
The-Trainers wrote:
> The de-coding could be done by a custom chip that could NOT be
> reverse engineered, but would be VERY cheap to produce!
If the police have it it shouldn't be too hard to steal.
A good deal of guns that criminals use are guns that had been either previously
confiscated or owned by the police.
Jorge Landivar
making it easier for non-felons have them too.
Jorge Landivar
Crackers not Hackers.
Jorge Landivar
drug lords, this can create a large amount of gun runners.
Jorge Landivar
The-Trainers wrote:
> Why do you imagine the NSA is so upset about strong encryption?
The NSA can break *most *strong encryption, but It becomes a problem for them
when there is a very large volume of it. It becomes hard for them to conduct
sigint when they have to waste cycles decrypting.
>
>
> Even medium levels of modern encryption are classified as "Munitions"
> because they pose a serious threat to national security!
No they are not a threat to national security, because there is strong encryption
that is avaliable outside the us, already.
I'm not shure what denominator they are, but Iran makes perfect counterfit us
money.
>
>
> Not that I have EVER heard of!
>
> And the modern $20s are even better!
>
> > they can certainly find a way around this magstripe.
>
> You need to do some more reading on magnetics and encryption!
> Current books and technical mags.
>
> > All you
> > can do is make it harder for them by keeping the data flags on a remote
> > system instead of on the card where it is immediately accessable to those
> > who would hack and modify it.
>
> ANY use of a remote system makes it pointless to make such a syste at all!
>
> The whole POINT is to REMOVE the need for a remote system!
>
> The remote system IS gun-owner registration!
>
> > Given enough different driver's licenses to record the magstripes from a
> > sufficiently enterprising hacker could compare them and figure out the
> > encryption scheme, and you can be sure that someone somewhere would be
> > working on cracking it the very instant a specimen was available.
>
> Sure, but they won't break it!
>
> > Even given that such a scheme could be made acceptably effective it doesn't
> > get us around the problem of those who buy guns for others, as Eric Harris's
> > girlfriend did.
>
> I NEVER claimed that! I only claim my system would be MUCH BETTER
> than Brady/NICS and it would have a great chance of passing!
I agree. that it would be better.
>
>
> > >All of the known felons in the USA could be REQUIRED to bring in their
> > >existing drivers licenses or phot ID cards to the DMV or police and their
> > >ID cards would be simply and quickly modified to show they are not allowed
> > >to buy a gun.
>
> > Better still, if the data flags on are on the remote system we don't even
> > have to have them come in. How many of them do you suppose are likely to
> > come in to have their chances of getting a gun taken from them? Just flag
> > them on the DMV's computers instead.
>
> Again, the SAME as NICS, gun-owner registration by computer records!
>
> > >The modifications would also not be changeable back to
> > >"normal" by any non-destructive means.
>
> > You are positing a non-existent technology here.
>
> NOPE!
> Such methods are commonly in-use, even in our money! That is why you can't
> fool a money reader about what type of bill you feed it!
>
> > Data on a magstripe is very easily modified.
>
> IF YOUR "reader" is able to do so, yes.
>
> But IF you don't know how to en-code the data, it won't do you any good!
One could pay off a cop to do it for them.
Not all cops are homest.
Lackey Boy
DL that they are NOT a prohibited person, with the assumption here that is
you do not have the imprint, then you are a prohibited person
Here the assumption is more closely tied to "innocent until proven guilty,"
not guilty until proven innocent" as it is under Brady/NICS. And just
because a person has the imprint, does not mean that he will purchase a
firearm. So any anti-gun people who want to garner statistics can only show
that there are a huge number of non-prohibited persons, i.e., the law
abiding citizens.
The-Trainers wrote in message ...
>
>
>On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Jim Mc wrote:
>
>> The-Trainers wrote:
>
>> > Have ALL drivers licenses or state issued photo ID of FELONS modified
>> > in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this
person
>> > may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
The-Trainers
On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Lackey Boy wrote:
> A state issued permit would be the best idea.
A "permit" IS gun-owner registration and that is EXACTLY what I am trying
to avoid!
"permits" are even WORSE than NICS/Brady!
> That or imprinting a persons
> DL that they are NOT a prohibited person, with the assumption here that is
> you do not have the imprint, then you are a prohibited person
Again, as I have told you, ANY such "visible" mark or lack of a mark
would be tossed out by the courts!
> Here the assumption is more closely tied to "innocent until proven guilty,"
> not guilty until proven innocent" as it is under Brady/NICS. And just
> because a person has the imprint, does not mean that he will purchase a
> firearm. So any anti-gun people who want to garner statistics can only show
> that there are a huge number of non-prohibited persons, i.e., the law
> abiding citizens.
Again, if the mark is visible for people to see, you have the DUAL
problems of it being instantly tossed out by the courts AND the
extra expense of needing to re-issue ALL the IDs for all the law-abiding
citizens, which is a LOT more expensive than just dealing with the
criminals!
MT
The-Trainers
On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Jorge Landivar wrote:
> The-Trainers wrote:
>
> > Why do you imagine the NSA is so upset about strong encryption?
>
> The NSA can break *most *strong encryption, but It becomes a problem for them
> when there is a very large volume of it. It becomes hard for them to conduct
> sigint when they have to waste cycles decrypting.
That is assuming they KNOW what the data is and they have access to the
data stream and have enough of it to find the patterns!
Take out either one of those, and they cannot break it!
> > Even medium levels of modern encryption are classified as "Munitions"
> > because they pose a serious threat to national security!
>
> No they are not a threat to national security, because there is strong encryption
> that is avaliable outside the us, already.
Oh, I agree that perception and reality are not on speaking terms, but
that was not my point!
> > > inducements there are for them, and if the criminals can engrave the plates
> > > for a $20 bill
> >
> > You seem to be way behind the times!
> >
> > Have there been ANY $20 bills that can fool magnetic readers?
>
> I'm not shure what denominator they are, but Iran makes perfect counterfit us
> money.
ONLY by VISUAL inspection, they cannot fool the machine readers!
> > I NEVER claimed that! I only claim my system would be MUCH BETTER
> > than Brady/NICS and it would have a great chance of passing!
>
> I agree. that it would be better.
Good, then lets work to work out the most secure, least invasive system
we can, then get some grass-roots actions going!
> > > Data on a magstripe is very easily modified.
> >
> > IF YOUR "reader" is able to do so, yes.
> >
> > But IF you don't know how to en-code the data, it won't do you any good!
>
> One could pay off a cop to do it for them.
> Not all cops are homest.
Makes NO difference!
As I said, the system to en-code the data would ONLY be a remote
and highly secured FBI computer that would REQUIRE FBI to accept
the request to re-code a once rejected ID as an "OK" ID!
NO amount of bribes could get BOTH the local cops and a remote FBI
computer system and operator to go along with the scheme!
MT
The-Trainers
On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Jorge Landivar wrote:
Fine, steal all th boxes you want, they won't do you a bit of good!
They can be made to be impossible to take apart without destroying
them!
This is quite easy!
MT
The-Trainers
On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Brian Morgan wrote:
> The-Trainers wrote:
> > Have there been ANY $20 bills that can fool magnetic readers?
> >
> > Not that I have EVER heard of!
>
> They don't have to fool magnetic readers, they have to fool people. And the do
> frequently. or !!
Fine, but as I said, since these cards are ONLY read by these new special
mag readers and those cannot be fooled, it makes no difference!
> > For beginners, you would have to STEAL one of the boxes, you would need
> > the security code to make the box work, then you would need some pretty
> > expensive equipment to watch the data stream, assuming you could open the
> > box without destroying it, then you would have to reverse-engineer
> > the silicon reader heads to figure out how the data is coming off the
> > card, then you would have to analyze a huge mass of data that would
> > be totally different from card to card...
> Or you would have to work for the lowest bidder contractor that designs them, or
> builds a piece of them, of have a cousin who's barber's brother-in-law used to
> date an employee...
Sorry, you CLEARLY have never worked on classified projects, I HAVE!
You just have NO CLUE!
> Some of them are called criminals because they DO steal!
If you READ what I WROTE you would understand that stealing the hardware
won't do them ANY good at all!
> Look, it's not a bad
> idea, but the facts are that to work, it would require perfect security,
The security is quite simple, and totally un-breakable EVEN if you were
to STEAL both the reader box and a writer box! It would still make no
difference!
> encryption that can't be broken even by the developer,
That exists and has for some time!
> and a sense of logic in the federal government means it's doomed to falure.
That is the only thing you have said so far that makes any sense
or shows any understanding of the facts!
> Brian
MT
The-Trainers
On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Jorge Landivar wrote:
> This might sound like a crazy idea, but how about letting felons have guns, but
> making it easier for non-felons have them too.
ONE STEP AT A TIME!
Later we will talk about repealing the 1968 law!
MT
The-Trainers
On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Jorge Landivar wrote:
> Just like prohibition created the gangsters, and the war on drugs created the
> drug lords, this can create a large amount of gun runners.
>
The 1968 law did that, this will NOT change anything about the black
market!
MT
Jorge Landivar
The-Trainers wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Jorge Landivar wrote:
>
> > The-Trainers wrote:
> >
> > > Why do you imagine the NSA is so upset about strong encryption?
> >
> > The NSA can break *most *strong encryption, but It becomes a problem for them
> > when there is a very large volume of it. It becomes hard for them to conduct
> > sigint when they have to waste cycles decrypting.
>
> That is assuming they KNOW what the data is and they have access to the
> data stream and have enough of it to find the patterns!
>
> Take out either one of those, and they cannot break it!
>
> > > Even medium levels of modern encryption are classified as "Munitions"
> > > because they pose a serious threat to national security!
> >
> > No they are not a threat to national security, because there is strong encryption
> > that is avaliable outside the us, already.
>
> Oh, I agree that perception and reality are not on speaking terms, but
> that was not my point!
>
> > > > inducements there are for them, and if the criminals can engrave the plates
> > > > for a $20 bill
> > >
> > > You seem to be way behind the times!
> > >
> > > Have there been ANY $20 bills that can fool magnetic readers?
> >
> > I'm not shure what denominator they are, but Iran makes perfect counterfit us
> > money.
>
> ONLY by VISUAL inspection, they cannot fool the machine readers!
>
> > > I NEVER claimed that! I only claim my system would be MUCH BETTER
> > > than Brady/NICS and it would have a great chance of passing!
> >
> > I agree. that it would be better.
>
> Good, then lets work to work out the most secure, least invasive system
> we can, then get some grass-roots actions going!
>
> > > > Data on a magstripe is very easily modified.
> > >
> > > IF YOUR "reader" is able to do so, yes.
> > >
> > > But IF you don't know how to en-code the data, it won't do you any good!
> >
> > One could pay off a cop to do it for them.
> > Not all cops are homest.
>
> Makes NO difference!
>
> As I said, the system to en-code the data would ONLY be a remote
> and highly secured FBI computer that would REQUIRE FBI to accept
> the request to re-code a once rejected ID as an "OK" ID!
>
> NO amount of bribes could get BOTH the local cops and a remote FBI
> computer system and operator to go along with the scheme!
I thought you were against a central FBI database?
Can you tell me how you expect to do this.
Please explain more.
Brian Morgan
Please remove your ! key - it's driving me nuts.
Brian
Scout
The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.10.990702...@shell11.ba.best.com...
>
>
> On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Brian Morgan wrote:
>
> > The-Trainers wrote:
> >
> > > (I think I covered all the issues or objections, but you tell me)
> > >
> > > in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this
person
> > > may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
> > > unmodifiable!
> >
and run such
> > a system.
>
> NO, the hardware would be designed by NSA or other contractors that
> are experts! Hech, I might even be on the project, my company has
> done such projects for the government!
I don't care who designs the hardware. If I can read the code on one card,
then it is simply a matter of copying that material identically to the back
of another card. I don't have to know what it says, or even how it is
formated, as long as it is a valid "go" code, then the felon is cleared to
buy.
You can NOT, repeat NOT use something that can be changed by anyone with a
little bit of hardware and a few brain cells. It MUST be PERMENATE AND
UNALTERABLE if you are going to fulfill your objective.
> > The encryptrion would be broken before it's even implemented. False
> > ID's would kill the value pretty quick.
>
> If you think that, you don't understand modern encryption!
Who cares how it is encrypted or even what it says. If it can be read, then
it can be written, and hence copied from one card to another.
> You also don't understand magnetics either!
Oh, I understand them quite well. Well enough to know that if it can be read
and it can be written, then it can be copied.
So tell me what exactly is to prevent me from designing a card reader that
will read the particular pattern on the back of card "A" belonging to Mr
Lawabiding Citizen, and then writting an identical copy of that pattern to
the back of card "B" belonging to Mr. Violent Murderer?
> Think about how pissed-off the NSA and most of the USA gov is at
> modern encryption methods!
>
> Current strong encryption already is so tough to crack that even
> the NSA can't break it!
>
> I have worked on classified projects, I KNOW what I am talking about!
Fine, then DON'T break the encryption, simple copy the data as is. Boom,
instant authorization to buy.
> > > The reason it MUST be in some "hidden" way is to avoid the massive
> > > negative reaction a "visible" "mark of shame" would get from privacy
> > > groups and the ACLU! The courts have made it pretty clear that any
> > > such visible "mark of shame" would get rejected by the courts after
> > > a long and expensive delay! And for good reason!
> > >
> > > Anybody seeing this "mark of shame", like an employer or landlord or
> > > potential lover or anyone taking a check or anyone checking ID for a
> > > credit card or friends or neighbors or loan officers or New Accounts
> > > people at the bank or bar tenders or... will ALL see this mark of
shame
> > > and will INSTANTLY ASSUME THE WORST!
>
> > And people would develop scanners to read the card,
>
> NO, the best anyone could do on their own would be to recognize
> a card that has some of these new code on it, they could NOT
> read the data without one of the FBI created scanners!
Why? Does the FBI have some kind of super duper highly secret method of
reading that could not be duplicated by anyone else?
Even assuming those readers could not be stolen or misused.
> And since anyone arrested would have such changes done on their
> card, the MAJORITY of those with the change would NOT be rejected
> for a gun! So knowing this would be meaningless!
Who cares what the data is, as you already told us the output is either
"yes" or "no", how hard is it to duplicate the information?
> > so whenever you handed over you "papers", they would still know.
>
> NO, they could NOT find out ANYTHING about what the card said!
>
> And the ONLY THING the card would say is "YES, this person can buy a gun"
> or "NO, this person cannot buy a gun" There would be NO other information!
So why couldn't I simply copy the data (ignore the encryption) from one card
to the back of another card?
<SNIP repeats>
Scout
>
> On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Brian Morgan wrote:
>
> > The-Trainers wrote:
> > >
> > > Not that I have EVER heard of!
> >
the do
> > frequently. or !!
>
> Fine, but as I said, since these cards are ONLY read by these new special
> mag readers and those cannot be fooled, it makes no difference!
And you don't think anyone else is smart enough to design a reader/writer to
the same specifications?
I mean get real you are talking a linear magnetic strip on the back of a
plastic card, there is ONLY so much you could do to try and alter the manner
in which the magnetic fields are placed on the card. Any pattern you can
think of, I will bet criminals could duplicate in under 90 days, and then
simply copy the data from one card to another.
The-Trainers
On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
>
> The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Brian Morgan wrote:
> >
> > > The-Trainers wrote:
> > > > Have there been ANY $20 bills that can fool magnetic readers?
> > > >
> > > > Not that I have EVER heard of!
> > >
> > > They don't have to fool magnetic readers, they have to fool people. And
> the do
> > > frequently. or !!
> >
> > Fine, but as I said, since these cards are ONLY read by these new special
> > mag readers and those cannot be fooled, it makes no difference!
>
> And you don't think anyone else is smart enough to design a reader/writer to
> the same specifications?
And how exactly would the get the specs?
And even if they got the specs for the reader or even the writer too
so what?
Without the fulll encryption specs and the key system, what good would it
be?
> I mean get real you are talking a linear magnetic strip on the back of a
> plastic card, there is ONLY so much you could do to try and alter the manner
> in which the magnetic fields are placed on the card. Any pattern you can
> think of, I will bet criminals could duplicate in under 90 days, and then
> simply copy the data from one card to another.
Then you have no clue about magnetics!
MT
The-Trainers
On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Brian Morgan wrote:
> >
> > > The-Trainers wrote:
> > > > Have ALL drivers licenses or state issued photo ID of FELONS modified
> > > > in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this
> person
> > > > may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
> > > > unmodifiable!
> > >
> > > Hackers are smarter than the government bureaucrats that would desing
> and run such
> > > a system.
> >
> > NO, the hardware would be designed by NSA or other contractors that
> > are experts! Hech, I might even be on the project, my company has
> > done such projects for the government!
>
> I don't care who designs the hardware. If I can read the code on one card,
> then it is simply a matter of copying that material identically to the back
> of another card. I don't have to know what it says, or even how it is
> formated, as long as it is a valid "go" code, then the felon is cleared to
> buy.
You clearly have no clue! You are still stuck in the "standard" box!
> You can NOT, repeat NOT use something that can be changed by anyone with a
> little bit of hardware and a few brain cells. It MUST be PERMENATE AND
> UNALTERABLE if you are going to fulfill your objective.
Even if that were true, which it is not, you STILL need a system that
is NOT VISIBLE, but may ONLY be "read" by a special reader!
If it is visibale, it will be rejected!
How about this, you ever hear of "smart cards"?
You are wrong about the magnetics, but if we wanted to go beyond
magnetics to silicon, what possible objections could you have to
Smart-Cards?
> > > The encryptrion would be broken before it's even implemented. False
> > > ID's would kill the value pretty quick.
> >
> > If you think that, you don't understand modern encryption!
> Who cares how it is encrypted or even what it says. If it can be read, then
> it can be written, and hence copied from one card to another.
Assuming you have a reader and a writer AND you KNOW exactly what you
are copying!
You are still stuck in the concept of standard formats!
You got to FORGET about standard media formats!
> > You also don't understand magnetics either!
> Oh, I understand them quite well. Well enough to know that if it can be read
> and it can be written, then it can be copied.
ONLY if the media conforms to a standard format!
If the format is non-existant currently, then there is no way
to know what you are looking at or copying!
> So tell me what exactly is to prevent me from designing a card reader that
> will read the particular pattern on the back of card "A" belonging to Mr
> Lawabiding Citizen, and then writting an identical copy of that pattern to
> the back of card "B" belonging to Mr. Violent Murderer?
What makes you think you will even recognize the "pattern"?
If there are NO card writers in the WORLD that follows the standards
that will be used in the new writers, then what chance has anyone got
to write a card without stealing a writer, and if the writer won't
work without direct control from a remote FBI system, even if you
could steal one, it would do you NO GOOD!
> > Think about how pissed-off the NSA and most of the USA gov is at
> > modern encryption methods!
> >
> > Current strong encryption already is so tough to crack that even
> > the NSA can't break it!
> >
> > I have worked on classified projects, I KNOW what I am talking about!
> Fine, then DON'T break the encryption, simple copy the data as is. Boom,
> instant authorization to buy.
If nobody but the cops has compatible writers, how could you do so?
If the writers won't function except by FBI control, what good
would they do even if you stole one?
> > > And people would develop scanners to read the card,
> >
> > NO, the best anyone could do on their own would be to recognize
> > a card that has some of these new code on it, they could NOT
> > read the data without one of the FBI created scanners!
> Why? Does the FBI have some kind of super duper highly secret method of
> reading that could not be duplicated by anyone else?
Not required, the technology is fairly simple to develope a totally
NEW system!
> Even assuming those readers could not be stolen or misused.
READERS , yes, but you NEED a writer too! And those can be VERY
tightly secured!
> > And since anyone arrested would have such changes done on their
> > card, the MAJORITY of those with the change would NOT be rejected
> > for a gun! So knowing this would be meaningless!
> Who cares what the data is, as you already told us the output is either
> "yes" or "no", how hard is it to duplicate the information?
VERY difficult!
Especially if you have no idea of the data density or placement!
> > > so whenever you handed over you "papers", they would still know.
> >
> > NO, they could NOT find out ANYTHING about what the card said!
> >
> > And the ONLY THING the card would say is "YES, this person can buy a gun"
> > or "NO, this person cannot buy a gun" There would be NO other information!
> So why couldn't I simply copy the data (ignore the encryption) from one card
> to the back of another card?
Since you don't understand magnetics, try this, suppose the ID card
waqs exposed to a radioactive source in different places, and the
placement on the card was a combination of the text info on the card
and the "YES" or "NO". All around the card there would be dozens
of "red-herrings" of random spots of radioactivity to confuse
anyone just detecting all around the card.
Now, This system lacks encryption of course, and the "spot" density
is many many orders of magnitude less than magnetics, but maybe you
are getting a little of how things work.
Since the "yes/no" placement is realted to the face text data,
the same EXACT spot placement would be of NO USE at all on
a different ID for a different person!
When they scan the card, they first enter some of the text from the
front of the card, that tells the reader which spot is the one that
matters!
And that ASSUMES that you could detect ALL the radioactivity correctly
and somehow create a writer to place the exact same spots on the ID!
Are you beginning to think outside the box yet?
MT
The-Trainers
<sigh>
Ok, I'll say it again, please follow.
The FBI would keep records on ALL BANNED persons.
(NOT the law-abiding ones like NICS, because that is the danger of NICS)
In ORDER to write a card to make that persons ID read as "REJECTED",
the FBI computer would be operating the writer.
ALSO, to change a "REJECT" to an "OK" the FBI conputer would ALSO
run the writer.
However, this would ONLY be to write the ID, NOT to do the READING
of the ID at the time of a gun sale.
The FBI has a LEGIT and lawful cause to keep the database of
PROHIBITED persons, and this is the ONLY database they would
need to hold.
Do you get it yet?
The DANGER is needing to have a gov computer to "allow" a gun sale
to go ahead. That is gun-owner registration and gun-sales registration
and that is what Brady/NICS does now.
Since the courts will never allow tattooing a big red X on the heads
of the prohibited persons, or any similar mark on their ID, the system
MUST require a non-visible means to detect their status without
the need for a gov computer to know about an ID check.
The FBI role is in the security of the writer hardware and the software
to operate the writers from their systems. No writer would be able to
operate without the FBI conputer, so they cannot be stolen and still
work.
The readers would ONLY function with a daily activation code AND
by hand entering text data off the face of the ID. Thus stealing
a reader would do no good either!
Am I getting through yet?
MT
The-Trainers
OK!!!!!!!! I WILL!!!!
;-)
MT
Scout
> > >
> > > > > Have there been ANY $20 bills that can fool magnetic readers?
> > > > >
> > > > > Not that I have EVER heard of!
> > > >
And
> > the do
> > > > frequently. or !!
> > >
> > > Fine, but as I said, since these cards are ONLY read by these new
special
> > > mag readers and those cannot be fooled, it makes no difference!
> >
> > And you don't think anyone else is smart enough to design a
reader/writer to
> > the same specifications?
>
> And how exactly would the get the specs?
Reverse Enginneering, or are you telling me you can hide the magnetic fields
on the recorded media?
> And even if they got the specs for the reader or even the writer too
> so what?
>
> Without the fulll encryption specs and the key system, what good would it
> be?
Copying the "OK" file from the back of one card and putting it in place of
the "REJECTED" file on the back of another card. You don't need to know the
data, encryption method or anything else, all you have to be able to do is
COPY the data as it currently exists on the good card. Seems to me you feel
that encryption make it impossible to copy an encrypted file. Sorry, but
even my old Dos 3.3 can copy files with the latest and greatest encytpion.
Why? Because a copy doesn't care what the data is. It simply duplicates what
it finds.
Sheese, and you claim to be an expert in this.
> > I mean get real you are talking a linear magnetic strip on the back of a
> > plastic card, there is ONLY so much you could do to try and alter the
manner
> > in which the magnetic fields are placed on the card. Any pattern you can
> > think of, I will bet criminals could duplicate in under 90 days, and
then
> > simply copy the data from one card to another.
>
> Then you have no clue about magnetics!
Looks to me as if I have more of a clue than you. However let's ask you some
simple questions about magnetic encoding and see what you know.
The old standard reel to reel computer tape uses what kind of encoding
method? How many tracks are there to this method? How is the data bytes
arranged on the tape?
In the common VCR what kind of encoding method is used? How many tracks are
there to this method? how is the data arranged on the tape?
In the common cassette player what kind of encoding method is used? How many
tracks are there to this method? How is the data arranged on the tape?
In the common tape backup drive what kind of encoding method is used? How
many tracks are there to this method? How is the data arranged on the tape?
Sorry, but magnetics are just that magnetic. They simply are magnetic media
with residual magnetic fields. Magnetic fields which can EASILY be viewed,
by the simple method of fine iron powder or dust. Heck I've already seen
small credit card sized viewers being sold, contained a plastic circle
filled with fine iron dust in an ?oil? suspension. Place it over a magnetic
strip and in seconds you could veiw the EXACT data encoded in any magnetic
strip. With enough work you could manually read any digital data placed on
the card, and could identify the exact manner in which data was located on
the card.
Sorry, but so far I've seen wonders about how this "yes" "no" is going to be
protected by POWERFUL encryption, but haven't seen a word about how a copy
of that is to be prevented, or even how individual transfers can be
conducted without having to go through a dealer that is still required to
fill out paperwork, or even how to keep this machine from recording all
transactions. Are all, as you state only the FBI really knows what data is
encoded. Would be real simple for them to make their reader and writer as
well that deposits information about each and every time the card was used
and where, never mind storing this information internally. After all the FBI
would NEVER think of adding memory to record this information inside of a
"unopenable" box, which seems to "break" anytime the memory starts getting
full, or they bring it in for their annual "maintenance".
I mean I know what they are supposed to do, but look at the BATF and tell me
that governmental organizations limit themselves even to what they can
legally do.
Jorge Landivar
The-Trainers wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
>
> >
> > The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > > On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Brian Morgan wrote:
> > >
> > > > The-Trainers wrote:
> > > > > Have there been ANY $20 bills that can fool magnetic readers?
> > > > >
> > > > > Not that I have EVER heard of!
> > > >
> > > > They don't have to fool magnetic readers, they have to fool people. And
> > the do
> > > > frequently. or !!
> > >
> > > Fine, but as I said, since these cards are ONLY read by these new special
> > > mag readers and those cannot be fooled, it makes no difference!
> >
> > And you don't think anyone else is smart enough to design a reader/writer to
> > the same specifications?
>
> And how exactly would the get the specs?
Steal them, dig them out of the trash, pay off some low level bureaucrat
>
>
> And even if they got the specs for the reader or even the writer too
> so what?
>
> Without the fulll encryption specs and the key system, what good would it
> be?
>
> > I mean get real you are talking a linear magnetic strip on the back of a
> > plastic card, there is ONLY so much you could do to try and alter the manner
> > in which the magnetic fields are placed on the card. Any pattern you can
> > think of, I will bet criminals could duplicate in under 90 days, and then
> > simply copy the data from one card to another.
>
> Then you have no clue about magnetics!
>
> MT
Jorge Landivar
The-Trainers wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Jorge Landivar wrote:
> > The-Trainers wrote:
> >
> > > As I said, the system to en-code the data would ONLY be a remote
> > > and highly secured FBI computer that would REQUIRE FBI to accept
> > > the request to re-code a once rejected ID as an "OK" ID!
> > >
> > > NO amount of bribes could get BOTH the local cops and a remote FBI
> > > computer system and operator to go along with the scheme!
>
> > I thought you were against a central FBI database?
> > Can you tell me how you expect to do this.
> > Please explain more.
>
> <sigh>
>
> Ok, I'll say it again, please follow.
>
> The FBI would keep records on ALL BANNED persons.
I'm against it already. :-)
Scout
> TRY to think outside the box!
I am. That's your problem.
So answer my question. How exactly are you going to make a system that
prevents someone from simply copying the magnetic arrangement from one card
to another?
> > You can NOT, repeat NOT use something that can be changed by anyone with
a
> > little bit of hardware and a few brain cells. It MUST be PERMENATE AND
> > UNALTERABLE if you are going to fulfill your objective.
>
> Even if that were true, which it is not, you STILL need a system that
> is NOT VISIBLE, but may ONLY be "read" by a special reader!
The "reader" as you call it could be nothing more than a mark invisble under
visible light that shows up under Ultraviolet or Infrared. Further you
haven't explained to me WHY it would have to be hidden. You claim it would
be attacked by the ACLU, but you haven't explained exactly why it would be
for prohibited persons, and exactly what right it would violate. See,
anything that can cause a person to be prohibited under the law is the
result of a court case, and except for minors, all these records are open to
the public and as such ALREADY A MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD. So why would it
matter if a matter of public record were added to your card?
> If it is visibale, it will be rejected!
So you claim, but somehow you never seem to declare under what specific
manner it would be rejected. How can a reference to a matter of public
record be rejected?
> How about this, you ever hear of "smart cards"?
Yep, but that isn't what you are asking for. Further I note that recently in
France they had to redesign their telephone "smart cards" because criminals
had determined how to alter the monetary value of the card. What you can
design, criminals can figure out how to circumvent.
> You are wrong about the magnetics, but if we wanted to go beyond
> magnetics to silicon, what possible objections could you have to
> Smart-Cards?
Better, but still subject to some of the same problems.
> > > > The encryptrion would be broken before it's even implemented.
False
> > > > ID's would kill the value pretty quick.
> > >
> > > If you think that, you don't understand modern encryption!
>
> > Who cares how it is encrypted or even what it says. If it can be read,
then
> > it can be written, and hence copied from one card to another.
>
> Assuming you have a reader and a writer AND you KNOW exactly what you
> are copying!
Ok, send me a 3.5 with a file on it. I don't care what it is that I am
copying, but I will copy it and return it on a different 3.5.
I don't need to know what the data is, or how it is encypted or anything
else. I simply have to be able to duplicate it as it currently exists.
> You are still stuck in the concept of standard formats!
Oh, going to have 4,000 different formats of readers?
<Swipe>
Sorry, sir you card does match the reader format, you'll have to go to a
different store, let's see Code 3454.......
Hmmm. The nearest store with that reader format is 150 miles away. No
problem in this age of modern transportation.
Who cares how many formats there are, since you only have to duplicate ONE
to be effective.
> You got to FORGET about standard media formats!
So each store is going to have 4000 different readers?
How does that prevent me from copying but ONE of those formats?
> > > You also don't understand magnetics either!
>
> > Oh, I understand them quite well. Well enough to know that if it can be
read
> > and it can be written, then it can be copied.
>
> ONLY if the media conforms to a standard format!
Wrong. You can have a non-standard format. You would simply have to build a
reader/writer to that format. Which is probably not going to be anything
other than a change in an existing reader with "standard format".
> If the format is non-existant currently, then there is no way
> to know what you are looking at or copying!
You know how magnetic media words?
You have a bit of magnetic media?
You pass a coil with a flucuating current, hence magnetic field over the
media?
The fluctuating magnetic field of the coil produces areas of different
magnetic orientation and strength.
The magnetic fields remain on the media.
Magnetic fields which CAN be detected.
A couple of buffs of iron dust across the surface, and gentle breeze to
remove any excess, and wow, I can "read" the data. I can SEE what I am
trying to copy.
Sheese. What a self proclaimed "expert" you are.
> > So tell me what exactly is to prevent me from designing a card reader
that
> > will read the particular pattern on the back of card "A" belonging to Mr
> > Lawabiding Citizen, and then writting an identical copy of that pattern
to
> > the back of card "B" belonging to Mr. Violent Murderer?
>
> What makes you think you will even recognize the "pattern"?
>
> If there are NO card writers in the WORLD that follows the standards
> that will be used in the new writers,
If there are no writers, then what good is your idea?
> then what chance has anyone got
> to write a card without stealing a writer, and if the writer won't
> work without direct control from a remote FBI system, even if you
> could steal one, it would do you NO GOOD!
Sorry, but anything you could design, I could duplicate given time.
>
> > > Think about how pissed-off the NSA and most of the USA gov is at
> > > modern encryption methods!
> > >
> > > Current strong encryption already is so tough to crack that even
> > > the NSA can't break it!
> > >
> > > I have worked on classified projects, I KNOW what I am talking about!
>
> > Fine, then DON'T break the encryption, simple copy the data as is. Boom,
> > instant authorization to buy.
>
> If nobody but the cops has compatible writers, how could you do so?
Simple, build compatable reader/writers.
> If the writers won't function except by FBI control, what good
> would they do even if you stole one?
Well, what keeps the FBI from simply recording transaction information which
time the control code is requested?
Are you telling us that the control code can't be duplicated either?
> > > > And people would develop scanners to read the card,
> > >
> > > NO, the best anyone could do on their own would be to recognize
> > > a card that has some of these new code on it, they could NOT
> > > read the data without one of the FBI created scanners!
>
> > Why? Does the FBI have some kind of super duper highly secret method of
> > reading that could not be duplicated by anyone else?
>
> Not required, the technology is fairly simple to develope a totally
> NEW system!
Which would be just as easily duplicated.
> > Even assuming those readers could not be stolen or misused.
>
> READERS , yes, but you NEED a writer too! And those can be VERY
> tightly secured!
If you can read the data, then you know the EXACT format in which that data
is placed on the card. Given that information you know EXACTLY how that data
would need to be written. Heck you would then even have a test method to see
if it was done properly.
> > > And since anyone arrested would have such changes done on their
> > > card, the MAJORITY of those with the change would NOT be rejected
> > > for a gun! So knowing this would be meaningless!
>
> > Who cares what the data is, as you already told us the output is either
> > "yes" or "no", how hard is it to duplicate the information?
>
> VERY difficult!
Empty claim without substance. Please tell us an item of magnetic media that
has not and never could be copied?
> Especially if you have no idea of the data density or placement!
That is what the stolen reader is for. Even assuming that we're going to
ignore that iron dust will give you exactly this information.
> > > > so whenever you handed over you "papers", they would still know.
> > >
> > > NO, they could NOT find out ANYTHING about what the card said!
> > >
> > > And the ONLY THING the card would say is "YES, this person can buy a
gun"
> > > or "NO, this person cannot buy a gun" There would be NO other
information!
>
> > So why couldn't I simply copy the data (ignore the encryption) from one
card
> > to the back of another card?
>
> Since you don't understand magnetics, try this, suppose the ID card
> waqs exposed to a radioactive source in different places, and the
> placement on the card was a combination of the text info on the card
> and the "YES" or "NO". All around the card there would be dozens
> of "red-herrings" of random spots of radioactivity to confuse
> anyone just detecting all around the card.
Excuse me, but from my understanding radioactivity is one of those things
that will eventually ERASE magnetic media.
How exactly are you going to place random radation on this card?
What exactly is the public going to think about carrying around a
radioactive card?
What exactly does a radiation spot have to do with reading a magnetic field,
two utterly different types of influance.
> Now, This system lacks encryption of course, and the "spot" density
> is many many orders of magnitude less than magnetics, but maybe you
> are getting a little of how things work.
Yep, you can't answer the question, except to continually make it more
complex.
1: Simple encypted data on back of card
2: Complex encypted data on back of card
3: Complex encrypted data on back of card using "secret method" of encoding
4: Writers require FBI control code to function
5: Random radiation patter now required.
You keep adding junk to the system, and STILL have FAILED TO ANSWER THE
QUESTION.
Heck look how far we've come and that just up against what one person can
think of. Next thing you will want is the Lens of Arisia.
> Since the "yes/no" placement is realted to the face text data,
> the same EXACT spot placement would be of NO USE at all on
> a different ID for a different person!
>
> When they scan the card, they first enter some of the text from the
> front of the card, that tells the reader which spot is the one that
> matters!
Oh, now a NEW condition.
> And that ASSUMES that you could detect ALL the radioactivity correctly
> and somehow create a writer to place the exact same spots on the ID!
Which eventually could be done.
One simple question, have you noticed how complex the card has become simply
in response to what I could think of, can you imagine how much more complex
it would have to become when some million criminals begin to think of how to
defeat it?
Scout
>
>
> On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Jorge Landivar wrote:
> > The-Trainers wrote:
> >
> > > As I said, the system to en-code the data would ONLY be a remote
> > > and highly secured FBI computer that would REQUIRE FBI to accept
> > > the request to re-code a once rejected ID as an "OK" ID!
> > >
> > > NO amount of bribes could get BOTH the local cops and a remote FBI
> > > computer system and operator to go along with the scheme!
>
> > I thought you were against a central FBI database?
> > Can you tell me how you expect to do this.
> > Please explain more.
>
> <sigh>
>
> Ok, I'll say it again, please follow.
>
> The FBI would keep records on ALL BANNED persons.
Ok, but what is to keep the FBI from storing transaction data inside the
readers, since after all no one but the FBI knows what is inside their
machine?
I'm fairly certain that they will have some kind of maintenance schedule,
even assuming you don't have the machine "break" when the memory is almost
full.
Robb
wrote:
--Snip--
>
>So answer my question. How exactly are you going to make a system that
>prevents someone from simply copying the magnetic arrangement from one card
>to another?
>
I see a couple of problems.
<1> Won't stop "Straw Man" purchases. Of course I have no idea what
WILL stop these. Any ideas???
<2> Won't stop a criminal from using a fake ID with a copied data
stream on the back. Heck, You could put a random stream of encrypted
data on the back of a card and still design a reader/writer to just
blindly copy the data.
<3> While I trust the encrytion algorithms out right now, I don't
think that there's a way to make a bit of data "unreadable" by
anything except your theoretical "readers." If you're distributing
these things to every gun dealer in the world, one would be copied
within days. And then the copying of the data streams would begin.
<R>obb
Brian Morgan
> On Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:27:20 -0400, "Scout" <sc...@monumental.com>
> wrote:
> --Snip--
> >
> >So answer my question. How exactly are you going to make a system that
> >prevents someone from simply copying the magnetic arrangement from one card
> >to another?
> >
> --Snip--
>
> I see a couple of problems.
>
> <1> Won't stop "Straw Man" purchases. Of course I have no idea what
> WILL stop these. Any ideas???
Prosecution. Gun law prosecution is way down over this president's terms.
Start putting them in jail, where they can't shop.
> <2> Won't stop a criminal from using a fake ID with a copied data
> stream on the back. Heck, You could put a random stream of encrypted
> data on the back of a card and still design a reader/writer to just
> blindly copy the data.
No fix for this. Again - if anyone believes that the US government can do
something so secure that it can't be broken, I've got this bridge for sale...
> <3> While I trust the encrytion algorithms out right now, I don't
> think that there's a way to make a bit of data "unreadable" by
> anything except your theoretical "readers." If you're distributing
> these things to every gun dealer in the world, one would be copied
> within days. And then the copying of the data streams would begin.
>
> <R>obb
And this i ignoring the fact that someone had to design it in the first place.
All it takes is one crooked person in the process, and it's all broke.
Brian
Frank
The-Trainers wrote:
>
> On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Robert F Wieland wrote:
>
> > The anti-gunners will not consider such a system, exactly because it
> > does not create a registration list.
>
> They don't count!
Apparently, they do count. How else would you explain all the current
nonsense/nuisense laws on the books now?
>
> The point is this system provides a system that seems to have great
> advantages from the point of view of the general public ad which
> the gun-haters cannot fight against without looking like the assholes
> and liars that they are!
Let's get a few things straight. The "gun-haters" CAN fight against common sense
without looking like a$$holes...to other a$$holes who believe their lies. It's
the other a$$holes that couldn't care less about the whole issue that needs to
smartened up. Your plan to appease the gun-haters just gives in to their thought
process.
>
> > You are still thinking gun-control
> > is a debate, that both parties are interested in facts and truth and
> > right.
>
> NO, I AM NOT!
>
> I am looking at it as a war for the votes of the people and lawmakers!
>
> A war that the gun-haters are WINNING because they KNOW how to play
> the game!
They have won in the past because they have the media on their side. The media
who are fellow socialists, who are too lazy to investigate gun hater "facts" and
who like their side to win.
>
> > The evidence shows otherwise. We have had federal gun control for
> > 65 yrears now, and the other side's answer to the question "How much gun
> > control do we need?" has not changed; the answer is still, will always be
> > "More!" Your proposal is for less.
>
> NO, My system is NOT "less" from the point of view of the general
> public, it is a system that is BETTER on several levels!
>
> We can honestly argue that Brady & NICS have huge holes in them that
> are easily gotten past by criminals, but this system can replace
> Brady & NICS with a system that is not only much cheaper, but also
> far MORE effective towards the "goal" of preventing criminals
> and the mentally ill from getting guns from lawful gun dealers
> EVEN at gun shows!
The "huge holes" you are referring to are exactly what? The only holes I see are
the lack of support for the system by state and local governments. They do not
report such things as restraining orders and arrests awaiting trail.
Additionally, mental institutions do not report former patients to the NICS
system. These same holes would exist under your system.
> that is not only much cheaper
Your system would require a greater initial expanse at the local level. First,
the local system of card reader/writers would have to be placed in every dr. lic.
station, police dept., courthouse, gun store, department store and sporting goods
store in the entire country. Then you have to pay someone, or some outfit, to
write the software for your system. Then you would have to train the government
employees to use it. Then you would have to get the police and the courts to
actually use it.
Admittedly, most stores have a credit card swiper in place, but your system would
have to be compatible with it to save some costs.
>
> We can argue that even those gun-rights people will find this system
> would avoid the primary objections we have to Brady & NICS, and thus
> even the NRA and other gun-rights groups won't fight against it!
>
> We can argue that this system is Constitutional, or at least less
> Un-Constitutional than Brady & NICS is. We can argue that it keeps
> the FBI concentrating their efforts on criminals and not wasting
> many millions and countless man-hours on law-abiding citizens!
Your system, along with Brady & NICS are all violations of the 4th amendment,
i.e., unreasonable search and seizure.
>
> This system side-steps BOTH sides objections while still appealing
> to the majority of the public that want to make it tough on criminals!
I would like to make it tough on criminals but background checks are only tough on
those who have no reason to fear the government. If it's tough on criminals you
want, lock 'em up and throw away the key.
>
> Most Americans are not happy with the FBI actions, nor with harming
> law-abiding citizens either, however, they accept this in Brady/NICS
> because nobody has offered them a "solution" that ONLY effects the
> criminals!
I just offered the perfect solution.
>
> This system would give the general public something they can understand
> and see that it is BETTER at the job they WANT done WITHOUT putting
> heavy burdens on the other law-abiding citizens!
This system would open the door for the government to track your every move.
Sorta reminds of the religious folks legend of the mark of the beast. Everybody
gets their own individual national identification card. Tell me, will there be an
optional tattoo with a serial number, in case you loose your card?
>
> Oh, and the BIG bonus is that it will be a MUCH cheaper system!
See above.
>
> Do you get it?
>
> If we don't find a way to take the wind from the sails of the gun-haters
> by a proposal that will seem "common sense" and "more effective" to
> the rest of the public, the gun-haters will keep on WINNING!
The best way to remove the "wind from the sails of the gun-haters" is to keep
repeating the facts that show the gun-haters are lying, inflating statistics,
making things up and that they are an evil lobbying group, like the evil NRA.
>
> WE MUST under-cut their efforts, and we MUST LEARN from their winning
> methods and turn those methods to OUR benefit!
We can undercut their efforts by pointing out that they are elitists, socialists
and hoplophobes (look it up).
We can not fight there lies by deliberately trying to hide something from everyone
and being deceitful, as you would.
"> > >The reason it MUST be in some "hidden" way is to avoid the massive
> > >negative reaction a "visible" "mark of shame" would get from privacy
> > >groups and the ACLU! The courts have made it pretty clear that any
> > >such visible "mark of shame" would get rejected by the courts after
> > >a long and expensive delay! And for good reason!"
>
> MT
You dialogue appears much like a salesmen with the with a product he's desperately
trying to sell. Do you have anything to do with the manufacture or sale of such a
system?
>
> > In article <Pine.BSF.4.10.99070...@shell11.ba.best.com> you write:
> > >Ok, folks, especially the anti-gun folks, how about this for an idea?
> > >(I think I covered all the issues or objections, but you tell me)
> > >
> > >Have ALL drivers licenses or state issued photo ID of FELONS modified
> > >in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this person
> > >may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
> > >unmodifiable!
> > >
> >
--
an intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools.
--For Whom the Bell Tolls, Ernest Hemmingway
Frank
The-Trainers wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, Frank wrote:
>
> > That is a good idea (hidden criminal history on Driver's license) but....
>
> What matters most is if it will appeal to enough of the public to get
> passed so that we can get rid of Brady/NICS!
>
> > While I don't like the idea of selling firearms to known felons, I like the idea
> > of proving innocence while conducting a legal transaction even worse.
>
> Oh, well, reality SUCKS! Do you have a point?
>
> > Background checks, whether instant or not, turns around the "innocent until proven
> > guilty" ideal to "guilty until proven innocent".
>
> Gee, you ever had to show ID to cash a check? Or to use a credit card?
> Or to get a job?
>
> > Welcome to the belated Orwellian 1984.
>
> Wake up and smell the calendar!
>
> What would you call Brady and NICS?
>
> > The better plan is to arrest violent criminals and keep them in jail. I'm kind of
> > fond of the island "Absolom" in the movie "No Escape".
>
> And just how realistic is that?
>
> You think the voters are going to vote to rent out Siberia?
>
> Look get REAL!
>
> In an "ideal" world there would be NO CRIMINALS, so WHAT?
>
> Your idea would be about as realistic as shooting people for Jay-walking!
>
> Do you have a realistic comment?
>
> > Still, you should send your idea to your representative, the NRA, GOA, 2nd Amend.
> > Foundation and your local politicos & snewspapers.
>
> I first offer it for any USEFUL comment in-case I forgot anything.
>
> Do you have any?
>
> MT
Frank
The-Trainers wrote:
>
> On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Brian Morgan wrote:
>
> > The-Trainers wrote:
> >
> > > Ok, folks, especially the anti-gun folks, how about this for an idea?
> > > (I think I covered all the issues or objections, but you tell me)
> > >
> > > Have ALL drivers licenses or state issued photo ID of FELONS modified
> > > in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this person
> > > may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
> > > unmodifiable!
> >
> > Hackers are smarter than the government bureaucrats that would desing and run such
> > a system.
>
> NO, the hardware would be designed by NSA or other contractors that
> are experts! Hech, I might even be on the project, my company has
> done such projects for the government!
The NSA. Now you are talking big bucks. Big taxpayers bucks.
>
> > The encryptrion would be broken before it's even implemented. False
> > ID's would kill the value pretty quick.
>
> If you think that, you don't understand modern encryption!
>
> You also don't understand magnetics either!
>
> Think about how pissed-off the NSA and most of the USA gov is at
> modern encryption methods!
>
> Current strong encryption already is so tough to crack that even
> the NSA can't break it!
The Chinese already have that.. Our trusted politicians gave it to them over the
last 6 years.
>
> I have worked on classified projects, I KNOW what I am talking about!
Heyyy, me too:))) Did you know that the US Army lost some of stuff within a week
of deployment many years ago. I can't and wouldn't go into details, but if you
knew this for sure, you wouldn't trust the government to keep any secrets.
Frank
The-Trainers
On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Frank wrote:
> The-Trainers wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Robert F Wieland wrote:
> >
> > > The anti-gunners will not consider such a system, exactly because it
> > > does not create a registration list.
> >
> > They don't count!
>
> Apparently, they do count. How else would you explain all the current
> nonsense/nuisense laws on the books now?
The general public and the media have been like sheep or cattle being
stampeded by a small number of fanatics!
All we have to do is turn the herd!
> > The point is this system provides a system that seems to have great
> > advantages from the point of view of the general public ad which
> > the gun-haters cannot fight against without looking like the assholes
> > and liars that they are!
> Let's get a few things straight.The "gun-haters" CAN fight againstcommon sense
> without looking like a$$holes...to other a$$holes who believe their lies. It's
> the other a$$holes that couldn't care less about the whole issue that needs to
> smartened up. Your plan to appease the gun-haters just gives in to their thought
> process.
I don't plan to "appease" them at all, I plan on undercutting their true
goals with a system that gets RID of the most dangerous parts of the
current bad laws!
Registration of lawful gun owners and waiting periods and prohibition
of private party sales.
> > > You are still thinking gun-control
> > > is a debate, that both parties are interested in facts and truth and
> > > right.
> >
> > NO, I AM NOT!
> >
> > I am looking at it as a war for the votes of the people and lawmakers!
> >
> > A war that the gun-haters are WINNING because they KNOW how to play
> > the game!
> They have won in the past because they have the media on their side. The media
> who are fellow socialists, who are too lazy to investigate gun hater "facts" and
> who like their side to win.
Of course, and we can USE the SAME methods to get the media behind a
system that directly undercuts the gun-haters agenda, but sounds BETTER
to most people!
> > > The evidence shows otherwise. We have had federal gun control for
> > > 65 yrears now, and the other side's answer to the question "How much gun
> > > control do we need?" has not changed; the answer is still, will always be
> > > "More!" Your proposal is for less.
> >
> > NO, My system is NOT "less" from the point of view of the general
> > public, it is a system that is BETTER on several levels!
> >
> > We can honestly argue that Brady & NICS have huge holes in them that
> > are easily gotten past by criminals, but this system can replace
> > Brady & NICS with a system that is not only much cheaper, but also
> > far MORE effective towards the "goal" of preventing criminals
> > and the mentally ill from getting guns from lawful gun dealers
> > EVEN at gun shows!
> The "huge holes" you are referring to are exactly what?
I have given these many times!
> The only holes I see are
> the lack of support for the system by state and local governments. They do not
> report such things as restraining orders and arrests awaiting trail.
> Additionally, mental institutions do not report former patients to the NICS
> system. These same holes would exist under your system.
Nice to see you answered your own question!
And as I said, this argument is for the public to make them follow along!
> > that is not only much cheaper
> Your system would require a greater initial expanse at the local level.
Not really.
> First,
> the local system of card reader/writers would have to be placed in every dr. lic.
> station, police dept., courthouse, gun store, department store and sporting goods
> store in the entire country.
NO, in the first place, it can be deployed in stages.
Next, the WRITERS would be ONLY in the most secure places! Remember, ONLY
criminals or arrestees would ever have their IDs written onto by a writer.
This could be easily done even if only 1 writer was available per county
to start with.
The readers are VERY cheap to make in volume, at first the system could be
done in stages too.
> Then you have to pay someone, or some outfit, to
> write the software for your system.
This is fairly simple and would already be long done BEFORE they would
begin mass manufacturing!
> Then you would have to train the government
> employees to use it.
If they can use a credit card reader, they could handle this!
> Then you would have to get the police and the courts to actually use it.
If the law to set up the system passes, they would have no choice!
> Admittedly, most stores have a credit card swiper in place, but your system
> would have to be compatible with it to save some costs.
NO, NO, NO, NO!
You have NOT been READING!
The current card-readers are of no use in this system!
> > We can argue that even those gun-rights people will find this system
> > would avoid the primary objections we have to Brady & NICS, and thus
> > even the NRA and other gun-rights groups won't fight against it!
> >
> > We can argue that this system is Constitutional, or at least less
> > Un-Constitutional than Brady & NICS is. We can argue that it keeps
> > the FBI concentrating their efforts on criminals and not wasting
> > many millions and countless man-hours on law-abiding citizens!
> Your system, along with Brady & NICS are all violations of the 4th amendment,
> i.e., unreasonable search and seizure.
I know Brady & NICS are Un-Constitutional, but they stil exist, mine
would be a huge step back away from those systems.
Mine would put an end to registration, and would allow for private party
sales to be fully legal again and put an end to waiting periods!
Now what exactly are you objecting to?
> > This system side-steps BOTH sides objections while still appealing
> > to the majority of the public that want to make it tough on criminals!
> I would like to make it tough on criminals but background checks are only tough on
> those who have no reason to fear the government. If it's tough on criminals you
> want, lock 'em up and throw away the key.
This would NOT be a "background check"! This would put an END to
"background checks"!
> > Most Americans are not happy with the FBI actions, nor with harming
> > law-abiding citizens either, however, they accept this in Brady/NICS
> > because nobody has offered them a "solution" that ONLY effects the
> > criminals!
> I just offered the perfect solution.
Fine, I have often said we COULD just rent out Siberia and send all our
felons there! Russia would LOVE the income, and they know how to maintain
a large prison population!
That IS what you want, right?
> > This system would give the general public something they can understand
> > and see that it is BETTER at the job they WANT done WITHOUT putting
> > heavy burdens on the other law-abiding citizens!
> This system would open the door for the government to track your every move.
HOW?
NICS and Brady do that by the "background checks", my system PREVENTS the
government from knowing anything about any gun purchases!
> Sorta reminds of the religious folks legend of the mark of the beast. Everybody
> gets their own individual national identification card. Tell me, will there be an
> optional tattoo with a serial number, in case you loose your card?
HUH?
Who said anything about "national identification card"?
My system simply applies to the CRIMINALS! They will be the ONLY ones
effected! The IDs of CRIMINALS will be rejected and all the rest of us
will be free to buy/sell guns without the government even knowing about
the sales!
> > Oh, and the BIG bonus is that it will be a MUCH cheaper system!
>
> See above.
YOU see above!
> > Do you get it?
> >
> > If we don't find a way to take the wind from the sails of the gun-haters
> > by a proposal that will seem "common sense" and "more effective" to
> > the rest of the public, the gun-haters will keep on WINNING!
> The best way to remove the "wind from the sails of the gun-haters" is to keep
> repeating the facts that show the gun-haters are lying, inflating statistics,
> making things up and that they are an evil lobbying group, like the evil NRA.
Yeah, I can see in all the new BAD laws just how well that tactic has
worked all these years!
WAKE UP and SMELL the Constitution burning bit by bit!
We have NEVER won a damn thing back from the gun-haters EVER!
Even Reagan did not restore rights, the best he did was slow down the loss
of gun rights!
> > WE MUST under-cut their efforts, and we MUST LEARN from their winning
> > methods and turn those methods to OUR benefit!
> We can undercut their efforts by pointing out that they are elitists, socialists
> and hoplophobes (look it up).
Gee, and that has worked so well so far, right?
> We can not fight there lies by deliberately trying to hide something
> from everyone and being deceitful, as you would.
What am I trying to "hide"?
I am perfectly willing to be honest that my system does a BETTER job
than Brady/NICS at the goal (pointless as it may be) of preventing
prohibited persons from buying guns from lawful gun sellers, while
not only being cheaper, but far less restrictive on the law-abiding
majority!
Since my system gets rid of "background checks" of the law-abiding
majority, it prevents the government from getting a list of gun owners!
> "> > >The reason it MUST be in some "hidden" way is to avoid the massive
> > > >negative reaction a "visible" "mark of shame" would get from privacy
> > > >groups and the ACLU! The courts have made it pretty clear that any
> > > >such visible "mark of shame" would get rejected by the courts after
> > > >a long and expensive delay! And for good reason!"
> > MT
>
> You dialogue appears much like a salesmen with the with a product he's desperately
> trying to sell. Do you have anything to do with the manufacture or sale of such a
> system?
NOPE!
I don't even currently work for any companies that deal with any of the
hardware or software that would be required!
And YES, I AM desperate to find a way to kill Brady/NICS and STOP the
total registration of lawful gun owners and the waiting periods and
to make all private sales legal again!
Instead of saying all sorts of "all or nothing" rhetoric and trying to
call my plan the "evil" one, how about saying something CONSTRUCTIVE
for a change?
> > > In article <Pine.BSF.4.10.99070...@shell11.ba.best.com> you write:
> > > >Have ALL drivers licenses or state issued photo ID of FELONS modified
> > > >in some "hidden" way in the magnetic data strip to show that this person
> > > >may NOT buy a gun! Use STRONG ENCRYPTION to keep the data secure and
> > > >unmodifiable!
MT
The-Trainers
On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Frank wrote:
> You asked for comments. Why are you being rude?
Maybe because people are not READING what I wrote, and are just
knee-jerking objections instead!
I have YET to have even one intelligent remark more meaningful than:
"I want all gun control laws eliminated, anything less is "evil"!"
OR
"Your system won't work because... criminals are smarter!"
OR
"Just keep 'em ALL in prison!"
So far that is about the extent of the comments!
Not one word of CONSTRUCTIVE comment!
It seems that not one single poster has a clue about how data can be
hidden or about magnetics or about encryption or about the courts
view on "visible" marks or...
Does that answer your question?
MT
The-Trainers
On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Brian Morgan wrote:
> Robb wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:27:20 -0400, "Scout" <sc...@monumental.com>
> > wrote:
> > --Snip--
> > >
> > >So answer my question. How exactly are you going to make a system that
> > >prevents someone from simply copying the magnetic arrangement from one card
> > >to another?
> > >
> > --Snip--
> >
> > I see a couple of problems.
> >
> > <1> Won't stop "Straw Man" purchases. Of course I have no idea what
> > WILL stop these. Any ideas???
>
> Prosecution. Gun law prosecution is way down over this president's terms.
> Start putting them in jail, where they can't shop.
YEP!
The ONLY "solution" to this!
My system was NEVER intended to deal with this, it was ONLY to get rid
of Brady/NICS and the FBI registering lawful gun buyers and to get rid of
the waiting period and to allow for private sales again!
> > <2> Won't stop a criminal from using a fake ID with a copied data
> > stream on the back. Heck, You could put a random stream of encrypted
> > data on the back of a card and still design a reader/writer to just
> > blindly copy the data.
>
> No fix for this. Again - if anyone believes that the US government can do
> something so secure that it can't be broken, I've got this bridge for sale...
Fine, then you really are not well versed in current technology are you?
> > <3> While I trust the encrytion algorithms out right now, I don't
> > think that there's a way to make a bit of data "unreadable" by
> > anything except your theoretical "readers." If you're distributing
> > these things to every gun dealer in the world, one would be copied
> > within days. And then the copying of the data streams would begin.
> >
> > <R>obb
>
> And this i ignoring the fact that someone had to design it in the first place.
> All it takes is one crooked person in the process, and it's all broke.
> Brian
Clearly you guys have no clue about the technology!
MT
The-Trainers
On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Robb wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:27:20 -0400, "Scout" <sc...@monumental.com>
> wrote:
> --Snip--
> >
> >So answer my question. How exactly are you going to make a system that
> >prevents someone from simply copying the magnetic arrangement from one card
> >to another?
> >
> --Snip--
>
> I see a couple of problems.
>
> <1> Won't stop "Straw Man" purchases. Of course I have no idea what
> WILL stop these. Any ideas???
My system was ONLY intended to get rid of Brady/NICS!
> <2> Won't stop a criminal from using a fake ID with a copied data
> stream on the back. Heck, You could put a random stream of encrypted
> data on the back of a card and still design a reader/writer to just
> blindly copy the data.
If you understood the technologies you were talking about, you would
know this is not that easy or even possible!
> <3> While I trust the encrytion algorithms out right now, I don't
> think that there's a way to make a bit of data "unreadable" by
> anything except your theoretical "readers." If you're distributing
> these things to every gun dealer in the world, one would be copied
> within days. And then the copying of the data streams would begin.
>
> <R>obb
NOPE!
You guys are still stuck thinking inside the box!
The ONLY reason that card readers today are all compatible, is that
they were DESIGNED to be compatible!
There is NO reason that they need to be at all!
You guys are aware of the FACT that Beta video decks and VHS video
decks used EXACTLY the same video tape, just inside different
containers? You do know this right?
What you seem to think is that you could break open a Beta case
and stick the tape inside a VHS player and you would be able to
then play the tape in a VHS system!
This is NOT TRUE! The VHS system would have NO idea what to make
of the data on the Beta tape!
There is an infinite number of ways to place information onto magnetic
media, and no reason at all to use any method that has been used before!
Untill NOW, no system except the most secure card-access facilities
had a good need for highly secured data on these mag strips, so
the card readers have all been made compatible. In fact, all forms
of magnetic storage on tape have been designed to be compatible
and designed for best results for reliability, NOT for security!
Such secure magnetic data systems do exist, but they are rare because
mostly the tapes are what gets secured and the data is encrypted!
What I am talking about has been done before, and it is a deliberately
designed system to prevent tampering and copying! And that is very
workable with current technology! Just not with current card-readers!
Try thinking outside the box!
MT
The-Trainers
On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
>
> The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > The DANGER is needing to have a gov computer to "allow" a gun sale
> > to go ahead. That is gun-owner registration and gun-sales registration
> > and that is what Brady/NICS does now.
> >
> > The readers would ONLY function with a daily activation code AND
> > by hand entering text data off the face of the ID. Thus stealing
> > a reader would do no good either!
> >
> > Am I getting through yet?
> Ok, but what is to keep the FBI from storing transaction data inside the
> readers, since after all no one but the FBI knows what is inside their
> machine?
Do you guys bother to READ before you trash?
Look, I already SAID these things do NOT connect to a phone-line
and they cannot be dis-assembled without destroying them!
> I'm fairly certain that they will have some kind of maintenance schedule,
> even assuming you don't have the machine "break" when the memory is almost
> full.
NO "maintenance schedule", because they need NO "maintenance"!
If they "break", so what? The only way to make such a system
criminal-proof is if it had NO possible connection to the world once
they were sealed up, no external data port at all!
All it would have is the keyboard for typing in the daily activation
code and info off the face of the ID to be checked against the
data on the magstrip (another reason copying data from another license
could not work) and the display showing the rejection or OK!
And think about how much data those boxes would have to hold to be
of any use! The added non-volatile memory would become the biggest
part of the cost!
You can bet that the first time people began to see them "fail", the
"fake-failures" would be figured out!
I suppose they could have a hidden IR port that is output only and a
special card&code that would tell the boxes to spew their data out the IR
port, but then, that would be VERY difficult for the gov to keep a
secret!
MT
The-Trainers
On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Jorge Landivar wrote:
> The-Trainers wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > > > On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Brian Morgan wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The-Trainers wrote:
> > > > > > Have there been ANY $20 bills that can fool magnetic readers?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not that I have EVER heard of!
> > > > >
> > > > > They don't have to fool magnetic readers, they have to fool people. And
> > > the do
> > > > > frequently. or !!
> > > >
> > > > Fine, but as I said, since these cards are ONLY read by these new special
> > > > mag readers and those cannot be fooled, it makes no difference!
> > >
> > > And you don't think anyone else is smart enough to design a reader/writer to
> > > the same specifications?
> >
> > And how exactly would the get the specs?
>
> Steal them, dig them out of the trash, pay off some low level bureaucrat
So what, the specs, even if you could get them, and even if you had a
silicon chip maker with expertise in magnetic heads to make them for you,
it would still do you no good without knowing how the data is detected
and written, and worse, how you would get that data to match up with
the face text data!
MT
The-Trainers
On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > TRY to think outside the box!
>
> I am. That's your problem.
I have yet to see ANY such thinking in response to my idea!
The closest was the fear of data being stored in the boxes and returned
after they got "full", but if the gov did that, it would not be able to
keep that secret!
> > On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> >
> > > The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> So answer my question. How exactly are you going to make a system that
> prevents someone from simply copying the magnetic arrangement from one card
> to another?
<sigh>
Can you copy a VHS tape if all you got is a pair of Beta video decks?
Have you even taken a USA TV set to UK and tried to watch the TV broadcast?
Have you ever tried to read an old 5.25" floppy in a 3.5" drive?
Have you ever tried to play an 8mm ANALOG video tape in a new 8mm DIGITAL
camera?
The ONLY reason all card readers TODAY are identical is because the
industry AGREED to make them all compatible!
IF a VERY different type was built and the systems were READERS only
and the boxes were sealed so well they could not be opened to get to
the data stream, then NOBODY would be able to see the data, and NOBODY
would have a WRITER, because they would be tightly secured and would ONLY
operate under FBI computer control!
Even IF you stole a reader AND a writer, they would do you no good!
The readers would be destroyed by any attempts to take them apart
and the writers won't work without the FBI computers to run them
remotely!
> > > You can NOT, repeat NOT use something that can be changed by anyone with
> a
> > > little bit of hardware and a few brain cells. It MUST be PERMENATE AND
> > > UNALTERABLE if you are going to fulfill your objective.
> >
> > Even if that were true, which it is not, you STILL need a system that
> > is NOT VISIBLE, but may ONLY be "read" by a special reader!
> The "reader" as you call it could be nothing more than a mark invisble under
> visible light that shows up under Ultraviolet or Infrared.
Since this CAN be seen by the public, the courts have already rejected
this!
> Further you
> haven't explained to me WHY it would have to be hidden. You claim it would
> be attacked by the ACLU, but you haven't explained exactly why it would be
> for prohibited persons, and exactly what right it would violate.
READ my prior posts on this, I already SEVERAL times explained the
problem!
Simplest way to say it is anyone who sees the mark of shame will instantly
assume the worst!
> See,
> anything that can cause a person to be prohibited under the law is the
> result of a court case,
NO, this is NOT TRUE!
> and except for minors, all these records are open to
> the public and as such ALREADY A MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD. So why would it
> matter if a matter of public record were added to your card?
First, not ALL such info IS public record, second since people are people,
they will instantly assume the worst!
> > If it is visibale, it will be rejected!
>
> So you claim, but somehow you never seem to declare under what specific
> manner it would be rejected. How can a reference to a matter of public
> record be rejected?
READ my other posts, I am really getting tired of repeating myself!
> > How about this, you ever hear of "smart cards"?
>
> Yep, but that isn't what you are asking for.
I was giving that as an alternate example, if done properly those work
quite well!
> Further I note that recently in
> France they had to redesign their telephone "smart cards" because criminals
> had determined how to alter the monetary value of the card.
Yes, and MANY people were WARNED about serious and stupid mistakes
many "smart cards" systems have made!
Just like Cell phones! These systems were DESIGNED to FAIL from the
start!
> What you can design, criminals can figure out how to circumvent.
So far, nobody has bothered to use even a fraction of the security
steps that are available, they all assume just the simplest ones
will do just fine!
And those are the systems that fail to remain secure!
You ever hear of "Enigma cards"?
NOBODY has EVER broken one of those!
> > You are wrong about the magnetics, but if we wanted to go beyond
> > magnetics to silicon, what possible objections could you have to
> > Smart-Cards?
> Better, but still subject to some of the same problems.
NOT if the secure methods are employed!
> > > > > The encryptrion would be broken before it's even implemented.
> False
> > > > > ID's would kill the value pretty quick.
> > > >
> > > > If you think that, you don't understand modern encryption!
> >
> > > Who cares how it is encrypted or even what it says. If it can be read,
> then
> > > it can be written, and hence copied from one card to another.
> >
> > Assuming you have a reader and a writer AND you KNOW exactly what you
> > are copying!
> Ok, send me a 3.5 with a file on it. I don't care what it is that I am
> copying, but I will copy it and return it on a different 3.5.
>
> I don't need to know what the data is, or how it is encypted or anything
> else. I simply have to be able to duplicate it as it currently exists.
And if the track density is WAY different?
If MY floppy has 100 times more tracks than your floppy drive?
If the track density is a variable based on some number coded on the
front of the floppy?
If certain spots on the floppy are to be set to values of magnetic flux
that are in-between values that my floppy drive can read and write,
but yours cannot detect at all?
> > You are still stuck in the concept of standard formats!
>
> Oh, going to have 4,000 different formats of readers?
Not required, just one that no other reader/writer ever made has used!
> Who cares how many formats there are, since you only have to duplicate ONE
> to be effective.
I NEVER said a word about more than ONE "format"! I said a NEW format!
Don't you guys READ?
> > You got to FORGET about standard media formats!
>
> So each store is going to have 4000 different readers?
NO! That is NOT what I SAID!
> How does that prevent me from copying but ONE of those formats?
With WHAT writer do you plan to write the card when you have no clue
about the low-level format?
> > > > You also don't understand magnetics either!
> >
> > > Oh, I understand them quite well. Well enough to know that if it can be
> read
> > > and it can be written, then it can be copied.
> >
> > ONLY if the media conforms to a standard format!
> Wrong. You can have a non-standard format. You would simply have to build a
> reader/writer to that format. Which is probably not going to be anything
> other than a change in an existing reader with "standard format".
NO!
You are STILL STUCK in the idea of standard formats!
NO EXISTING READER OR WRITER would be able to read or write the data!
The very magnetic heads would be totally NEW!
Try to think beyond the box for a change!
> > If the format is non-existant currently, then there is no way
> > to know what you are looking at or copying!
> You know how magnetic media words?
I know how magnetic media works, if that's what you mean!
> You have a bit of magnetic media?
YEP!
> You pass a coil with a flucuating current, hence magnetic field over the
> media?
So far so good!
> The fluctuating magnetic field of the coil produces areas of different
> magnetic orientation and strength.
Still ok! Get that "different magnetic orientation and strength" bit?
Think about that!
> The magnetic fields remain on the media.
Correct!
> Magnetic fields which CAN be detected.
Getting shaky now, but yes.
> A couple of buffs of iron dust across the surface, and gentle breeze to
> remove any excess, and wow, I can "read" the data. I can SEE what I am
> trying to copy.
NOPE! BOOM, dead! This is pretty much pointless!
The "data" is not like a row of light switches!
The data is ANALOG in nature and can be not only 1 or 0, but can be
at odd angles too!
You also have the problem of data density and track angle to worry
about!
NO CURRENT mag-stripe reader can handle anything but the ONE standard
type of track data! That is how they were all designed!
All these mag-stripe readers work exactly the same and the data is EASY
to read by almost any means, they were designed that way for ease of use,
they were not designed for security.
Same problem for the early use of Smart-Card and Cell phones, they just
never bothered to use the security technology that was available, they
just went with what was easy!
> Sheese. What a self proclaimed "expert" you are.
Clearly far more than you!
> > > So tell me what exactly is to prevent me from designing a card reader
> that
> > > will read the particular pattern on the back of card "A" belonging to Mr
> > > Lawabiding Citizen, and then writting an identical copy of that pattern
> to
> > > the back of card "B" belonging to Mr. Violent Murderer?
> >
> > What makes you think you will even recognize the "pattern"?
> >
> > If there are NO card writers in the WORLD that follows the standards
> > that will be used in the new writers,
> If there are no writers, then what good is your idea?
<sigh>
CURRENTLY there are no writers! They would be designed and built
for the project!
Your "box" seems even smaller than I figured! If you failed to understand
even that!
> > then what chance has anyone got
> > to write a card without stealing a writer, and if the writer won't
> > work without direct control from a remote FBI system, even if you
> > could steal one, it would do you NO GOOD!
> Sorry, but anything you could design, I could duplicate given time.
And what good would it do you, even IF you could?
Since you not only have to figure out the complexities of the magnetic
media writer/reader, but you would also have to build some custom
cutting-edge magnetic heads, then you would have to figure out how
to read & write the data and then the particular pattern would also
have to match with the textual face data on the ID and...
That is quite a lot of work to do!
You might as well be trying to print MONEY! But this money would need
to not only fool the eye, but fool the machines too!
> > > > Think about how pissed-off the NSA and most of the USA gov is at
> > > > modern encryption methods!
> > > >
> > > > Current strong encryption already is so tough to crack that even
> > > > the NSA can't break it!
> > > >
> > > > I have worked on classified projects, I KNOW what I am talking about!
> >
> > > Fine, then DON'T break the encryption, simple copy the data as is. Boom,
> > > instant authorization to buy.
> >
> > If nobody but the cops has compatible writers, how could you do so?
> Simple, build compatable reader/writers.
HOW?
Where would you get the specs and what electronics company would make them
for you?
> > If the writers won't function except by FBI control, what good
> > would they do even if you stole one?
> Well, what keeps the FBI from simply recording transaction information which
> time the control code is requested?
Why can't you guys READ?
The ONLY people who would EVER come into contact with a WRITER would be
the CRIMINALS and other prohibited persons!
These people are EXACTLY who the FBI WOULD keep a list of!
The in-store units would have NO connections to the outside at all
except for the "OK" or "REJECT" display, which could just be a pair
of lights!
> Are you telling us that the control code can't be duplicated either?
The "control code" for the writers would be run remotely to prevent anyone
from activating a writer box without FBI authorization!
This would keep dis-honest cops from selling a "correction" to a criminal!
Such "corrections" back to an "OK" would be fairly rare, most of the time,
the writers would be putting a "reject" on the ID!
> > > > > And people would develop scanners to read the card,
> > > >
> > > > NO, the best anyone could do on their own would be to recognize
> > > > a card that has some of these new code on it, they could NOT
> > > > read the data without one of the FBI created scanners!
> >
> > > Why? Does the FBI have some kind of super duper highly secret method of
> > > reading that could not be duplicated by anyone else?
> >
> > Not required, the technology is fairly simple to develop a totally
> > NEW system!
> Which would be just as easily duplicated.
HOW?
Magnetic heads are no longer things you can wind by hand anymore!
These are high-tech silicon chip technologies we are talking about here!
There are not even any actual "coils" of wire any more, they are now
made of etched silicon on a ceramic substrate.
Just what high-tech silicon makers are you going to get to make you
these heads?
Lets say you convince China to help out and you manage to steal
some readers and writers and their scientists use scanning
electron microscopes to reverse engineer the heads and the silicon
and eventually manage to create a writer for you at HUGE expense
which you can use to write an exact copy of data off an "OK"
ID.
Now, if that data is also keyed to the face text, you would also need
to have the encryption method broken, something our NSA has a hard enough
time doing!
Basically, you would do much better to produce totally fake IDs
of current state IDs. That would be simpler and far cheaper!
> > > Even assuming those readers could not be stolen or misused.
> >
> > READERS , yes, but you NEED a writer too! And those can be VERY
> > tightly secured!
> If you can read the data,
How would you be able to see what the data was, unless you were able
to take apart the readers to get to the data coming off the heads?
> then you know the EXACT format in which that data
> is placed on the card.
Even assuming you could see a data stream off the reader, so what?
You still have no idea how the data is coming off the card!
> Given that information you know EXACTLY how that data
> would need to be written. Heck you would then even have a test method to see
> if it was done properly.
You are still thinking inside the box!
> > > > And since anyone arrested would have such changes done on their
> > > > card, the MAJORITY of those with the change would NOT be rejected
> > > > for a gun! So knowing this would be meaningless!
> >
> > > Who cares what the data is, as you already told us the output is either
> > > "yes" or "no", how hard is it to duplicate the information?
> >
> > VERY difficult!
> Empty claim without substance. Please tell us an item of magnetic media that
> has not and never could be copied?
It can be, IF you know exactly how the system works and you have a
complete set of hardware and software to run it! Since the encryption
system and writer runs ONLY by remote from FBI systems, you cannot
find out!
> > Especially if you have no idea of the data density or placement!
> That is what the stolen reader is for.
But what good is it if you cannot get access to the DATA!
All you can see is the "OK" or "REJECT", the card reader does NOT allow
for any access to the data stream! And the box cannot be taken apart
without destruction!
> Even assuming that we're going to
> ignore that iron dust will give you exactly this information.
No, it won't!
Current magnetic heads are not much bigger than a human hair!
> > Since you don't understand magnetics, try this, suppose the ID card
^^^^^^^
Can you see this WORD? This is a HYPOTHETICAL example to AID
in your in-ability to understand!
> > waqs exposed to a radioactive source in different places, and the
> > placement on the card was a combination of the text info on the card
> > and the "YES" or "NO". All around the card there would be dozens
> > of "red-herrings" of random spots of radioactivity to confuse
> > anyone just detecting all around the card.
> Excuse me, but from my understanding radioactivity is one of those things
> that will eventually ERASE magnetic media.
OOOOOOOOOO, PLEASE! Can't you freakin READ!
I offered that as an example to help you comprehend what I am talking
about and you TOTALLY FAILED to EVEN UNDERSTAND THAT FACT!
> How exactly are you going to place random radation on this card?
>
> What exactly is the public going to think about carrying around a
> radioactive card?
>
> What exactly does a radiation spot have to do with reading a magnetic field,
> two utterly different types of influance.
Are you really this DUMB? Or are you just jerkin around to be annoying?
> > Now, This system lacks encryption of course, and the "spot" density
> > is many many orders of magnitude less than magnetics, but maybe you
> > are getting a little of how things work.
>
> Yep, you can't answer the question, except to continually make it more
> complex.
I HAVE answered the question! Layers of complexity is the key!
> 1: Simple encypted data on back of card
> 2: Complex encypted data on back of card
> 3: Complex encrypted data on back of card using "secret method" of encoding
> 4: Writers require FBI control code to function
That is a start!
> 5: Random radiation patter now required.
This was a HYPOTHETICAL TWIT!
> You keep adding junk to the system, and STILL have FAILED TO ANSWER THE
> QUESTION.
I have answered the question, but you seem to have difficulty READING!
> > Since the "yes/no" placement is realted to the face text data,
> > the same EXACT spot placement would be of NO USE at all on
> > a different ID for a different person!
> >
> > When they scan the card, they first enter some of the text from the
> > front of the card, that tells the reader which spot is the one that
> > matters!
> Oh, now a NEW condition.
NOT NEW AT ALL, THIS WAS ALWAYS A PART OF IT!
GET SOME NEW GLASSES, YOU ARE FAILING TO READ ENGLISH!
> > And that ASSUMES that you could detect ALL the radioactivity correctly
> > and somehow create a writer to place the exact same spots on the ID!
>
> Which eventually could be done.
>
> One simple question, have you noticed how complex the card has become simply
> in response to what I could think of, can you imagine how much more complex
> it would have to become when some million criminals begin to think of how to
> defeat it?
IT ONLY SEEMS COMPLEX TO YOU BECAUSE YOU CAN'T READ!
I added NOTHING new to the system in this post or the prior one!
> > Are you beginning to think outside the box yet?
Clearly, you not only can't think outside the box, you can't even read
the posts on the box you can operate!
MT
The-Trainers
On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Jorge Landivar wrote:
> The-Trainers wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Jorge Landivar wrote:
> > > The-Trainers wrote:
> > >
> > > > As I said, the system to en-code the data would ONLY be a remote
> > > > and highly secured FBI computer that would REQUIRE FBI to accept
> > > > the request to re-code a once rejected ID as an "OK" ID!
> > > >
> > > > NO amount of bribes could get BOTH the local cops and a remote FBI
> > > > computer system and operator to go along with the scheme!
> >
> > > I thought you were against a central FBI database?
> > > Can you tell me how you expect to do this.
> > > Please explain more.
> >
> > <sigh>
> >
> > Ok, I'll say it again, please follow.
> >
> > The FBI would keep records on ALL BANNED persons.
>
> I'm against it already. :-)
They already have access to this for the majority of prohibited persons,
it is public records for most such people!
You are aware of NICS & Brady, right?
MT
The-Trainers
On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> I mean get real you are talking a linear magnetic strip on the back of a
NO, I am NOT "talking a linear magnetic strip"!
It may be rectangular in nature, but it is NOT "linear" by nature!
> plastic card, there is ONLY so much you could do to try and alter the manner
> in which the magnetic fields are placed on the card.
NO, there are an infinite variety of ways to use that media!
> Any pattern you can
> think of, I will bet criminals could duplicate in under 90 days,
NOPE!
There are NO existing card readers or writers that would be able to make
ANY sense at all of the new data!
> and then simply copy the data from one card to another.
NOPE!
Even if you had the cooperation of a cop and a functional reader/writer
pair and somehow you could copy all the data without understanding
the encryption, it still would do you no good, because it would be
keyed to the face/text data too!
If the "OK" card data did not match the encoded data, that would be a
REJECT!
You guys just keep failing to READ and failing to think outside the box!
MT
Jorge Landivar
cracking.
Jorge Landivar
The-Trainers wrote:
Right, I'm just joking around.
Brian Morgan
> On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Brian Morgan wrote:
>
> > Robb wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:27:20 -0400, "Scout" <sc...@monumental.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > --Snip--
> > > >
> > > >So answer my question. How exactly are you going to make a system that
> > > >prevents someone from simply copying the magnetic arrangement from one card
> > > >to another?
> > > >
> > > --Snip--
> > >
> > > I see a couple of problems.
> > >
> > > <1> Won't stop "Straw Man" purchases. Of course I have no idea what
> > > WILL stop these. Any ideas???
> >
> > Prosecution. Gun law prosecution is way down over this president's terms.
> > Start putting them in jail, where they can't shop.
>
> YEP!
> The ONLY "solution" to this!
>
> My system was NEVER intended to deal with this, it was ONLY to get rid
> of Brady/NICS and the FBI registering lawful gun buyers and to get rid of
> the waiting period and to allow for private sales again!
>
> > > <2> Won't stop a criminal from using a fake ID with a copied data
> > > stream on the back. Heck, You could put a random stream of encrypted
> > > data on the back of a card and still design a reader/writer to just
> > > blindly copy the data.
> >
> > No fix for this. Again - if anyone believes that the US government can do
> > something so secure that it can't be broken, I've got this bridge for sale...
>
> Fine, then you really are not well versed in current technology are you?
>
> > > <3> While I trust the encrytion algorithms out right now, I don't
> > > think that there's a way to make a bit of data "unreadable" by
> > > anything except your theoretical "readers." If you're distributing
> > > these things to every gun dealer in the world, one would be copied
> > > within days. And then the copying of the data streams would begin.
> > >
> > > <R>obb
> >
> > And this i ignoring the fact that someone had to design it in the first place.
> > All it takes is one crooked person in the process, and it's all broke.
> > Brian
>
> Clearly you guys have no clue about the technology!
>
> MT
You seem to have an elevated view of something called "technology." My guess is
that a large percentage of the people reading this message are involved in
"technology," whatever that is. Technology cannot make up for people. In one of
your messages (!) you said that the company you work at might even be involved in
building such a device. How many people would that be? If it's more than one, you
CANNOT have perfect security. Government contractors are lowest bidders, and hire a
lot of inexpensive labor to build the contracted components. The device you
describe would be no more difficult to assemble than a car radio (probably even
easier), and would be assembled by low wage technicians. How do you keep them from
"losing" a couple?
You also seem enamored of the NSA. Weren't they the organization that ran a contest
recently to test their encryption schemes? It might have been another federal org -
can't remenber for sure. It took a couple of guys a couple of days to beak in.
THERE IS NO REAL SECURE SYSTEM. There are people (you might call hackers) that
break into systems for the fun if it - think how much fun they would have with
someone paying for the service.
Brian
Brian Morgan
> Could you please learn to read? It would help a lot!
> yadda yadda yadda
OK, you win. Build it and they will come. I give up...
Brian
Brian Morgan
> Could you please learn to read? It would help a lot!
>
I forgot:
! !!! !!!! ! !!!
Brian!
cguinn
wrote:
>> So answer my question. How exactly are you going to make a system that
>> prevents someone from simply copying the magnetic arrangement from one card
>> to another?
>
><sigh>
>Can you copy a VHS tape if all you got is a pair of Beta video decks?
>
>Have you even taken a USA TV set to UK and tried to watch the TV broadcast?
>
>Have you ever tried to read an old 5.25" floppy in a 3.5" drive?
>
>Have you ever tried to play an 8mm ANALOG video tape in a new 8mm DIGITAL
>camera?
>
>The ONLY reason all card readers TODAY are identical is because the
>industry AGREED to make them all compatible!
>
>IF a VERY different type was built and the systems were READERS only
>and the boxes were sealed so well they could not be opened to get to
>the data stream, then NOBODY would be able to see the data, and NOBODY
>would have a WRITER, because they would be tightly secured and would ONLY
>operate under FBI computer control!
>
>Even IF you stole a reader AND a writer, they would do you no good!
>The readers would be destroyed by any attempts to take them apart
>and the writers won't work without the FBI computers to run them
>remotely!
Well, "The-Trainers" has you there! I know this from personal
experience!
The security system where I work has mag-stripe cards that are
PROPRIATARY encoded! We tried to have on analyzed, (because the
pre-encoded ones cost $4.00 each and blank cards only cost $0.30!) We
wanted to encode our own cards and save money. SORRY! Can't do it!!
They couldn't even READ what was on the card!
So yes, you MUST have one of the special boxes to read/write the
cards. I'll accept that. What I still don't accept is the idea that
SOMEONE won't be able to get their hands on a box, figure out how it
works, and start faking ID's. I've seen recently where a FL man was
arrested for intercepting the data sent to police terminals (those
little consoles in their cruisers that let them check lic.plates,
warrents, etc.) I even saw on Discovery Channel where a hacker had
BOUGHT a used one, (sans power supply,) at a FLEA MARKET! All he had
to do was hook up a new power supply and BINGO, he was in! What makes
anyone think that this will be any different?
cguinn
"When only the police have guns, it's called a police state!" - Unknown
"Gun control is the ability to put five shots in the same hole." - Ted Nugent
Jorge Landivar
I think.
Brian Morgan wrote:
> The-Trainers wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Brian Morgan wrote:
> >
> > > Robb wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:27:20 -0400, "Scout" <sc...@monumental.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > --Snip--
> > > > >
> > > > >So answer my question. How exactly are you going to make a system that
> > > > >prevents someone from simply copying the magnetic arrangement from one card
> > > > >to another?
> > > > >
Frank
The-Trainers wrote:
>
> On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Frank wrote:
>
> > > that is not only much cheaper
>
> > Your system would require a greater initial expanse at the local level.
>
> Not really.
>
> > First,
> > the local system of card reader/writers would have to be placed in every dr. lic.
> > station, police dept., courthouse, gun store, department store and sporting goods
> > store in the entire country.
>
> NO, in the first place, it can be deployed in stages.
>
Spreading the cost over time does not make it cheaper.
> Next, the WRITERS would be ONLY in the most secure places! Remember, ONLY
> criminals or arrestees would ever have their IDs written onto by a writer.
> This could be easily done even if only 1 writer was available per county
> to start with.
But the system, for economic and security reasons, would have to use the same
writer that makes the entire dr. lic. for everyone. Otherwise, the felon could
see that the issuer was using a different writer, alerting he/she that they were
marked as the devil. A different writer, or card creator, would cause the issuer
to make extra steps to complete the job and it would require the extra cost of
another writer everywhere, as I stated before.
>
> The readers are VERY cheap to make in volume, at first the system could be
> done in stages too.
>
> > Then you have to pay someone, or some outfit, to
> > write the software for your system.
>
> This is fairly simple and would already be long done BEFORE they would
> begin mass manufacturing!
Fairly simple for whom? I'd been involved in hiring an outfit to write software
to search and display classified pages in books that were digitized, a fairly
simple task. It took 4 years and $400K to get it to beta.
>
> > Then you would have to train the government
> > employees to use it.
>
> If they can use a credit card reader, they could handle this!
You don't get it. The government employees wouldn't be scanning the cards. They
would be marking the cards "no Sale". They would be inputting the data into a
database, exactly like the one the NICS is using. How else would their
information stay current? This database would be accessed every time a drivers
license was issued. Every time a arrest is made for domestic violence or suspicion
of a felony or a restraining order was issued, the information on that person
would have to be updated. Since people can move freely from state to state it
would have to update a national database, so when our suspect goes to get a new
license in another state, the dbase can be checked. Then, if the charges are
dropped, the information must be purged from the system. How many government
employees are going to be doing that chore?
>
> > Then you would have to get the police and the courts to actually use it.
>
> If the law to set up the system passes, they would have no choice!
I suppose they have no choice but to enforce the laws on the books now? Let's
see...400,000 felons, and other restricted persons, committing felonies by
attempting to buy a gun - arrests = 7. 6000 kids bring guns to school - arrests
=13. I got stopped for 86 in a 70 mph zone and got a warning ticket (thank you
officer) that was selective law enforcement. Shirley, I mean surely, you can
think of more.
> > Admittedly, most stores have a credit card swiper in place, but your system
> > would have to be compatible with it to save some costs.
>
> NO, NO, NO, NO!
>
> You have NOT been READING!
>
> The current card-readers are of no use in this system!
I have been reading. Unless you are omitting some detail that you think is common
knowledge (a term I despise). Your magnetic strip on a dr. lic. would be encoded
with a "No Sale" marker for gun purchases. If there is no reader, and you say it
would eliminate the need for the NICS dbase, how does one find out that they are
dealing with a restricted person? Telepathy? BTW, will it notify the police that
an unlawful transaction is occurring?
>
> > > We can argue that even those gun-rights people will find this system
> > > would avoid the primary objections we have to Brady & NICS, and thus
> > > even the NRA and other gun-rights groups won't fight against it!
> > >
> > > We can argue that this system is Constitutional, or at least less
> > > Un-Constitutional than Brady & NICS is. We can argue that it keeps
> > > the FBI concentrating their efforts on criminals and not wasting
> > > many millions and countless man-hours on law-abiding citizens!
>
> > Your system, along with Brady & NICS are all violations of the 4th amendment,
> > i.e., unreasonable search and seizure.
>
> I know Brady & NICS are Un-Constitutional, but they stil exist, mine
> would be a huge step back away from those systems.
Your system would require the NICS dbase to be timely and affective, more so then
it is now.
>
> Mine would put an end to registration, and would allow for private party
> sales to be fully legal again and put an end to waiting periods!
>
> Now what exactly are you objecting to?
This is your problem. You are a self-centered stupid egotistical motherf@$@$@$!
I'm not objecting, you A$$HOLE, I'm telling you problems that seem reasonable to
me. You asked for for comments. I'm giving them to you. You respond with
extreme rudeness. Why did you even put the word "comments?" on the original
post. Were you just looking for reason to vent Anonymously like the craven coward
you are!! You don't even have the balls to put your name on the posting.
>
> > > This system side-steps BOTH sides objections while still appealing
> > > to the majority of the public that want to make it tough on criminals!
>
> > I would like to make it tough on criminals but background checks are only tough on
> > those who have no reason to fear the government. If it's tough on criminals you
> > want, lock 'em up and throw away the key.
>
> This would NOT be a "background check"! This would put an END to
> "background checks"!
A background check would have to be run initially. Otherwise how are you going
clear or "no sale" the person in the first place.
>
> > > Most Americans are not happy with the FBI actions, nor with harming
> > > law-abiding citizens either, however, they accept this in Brady/NICS
> > > because nobody has offered them a "solution" that ONLY effects the
> > > criminals!
>
> > I just offered the perfect solution.
>
> Fine, I have often said we COULD just rent out Siberia and send all our
> felons there! Russia would LOVE the income, and they know how to maintain
> a large prison population!
>
> That IS what you want, right?
Sounds like a plan to me.
>
> > > This system would give the general public something they can understand
> > > and see that it is BETTER at the job they WANT done WITHOUT putting
> > > heavy burdens on the other law-abiding citizens!
>
> > This system would open the door for the government to track your every move.
>
> HOW?
It is all above. dbases, continual updating, on and on....
>
> NICS and Brady do that by the "background checks", my system PREVENTS the
> government from knowing anything about any gun purchases!
The same people who would make up the "strong encryption" could just as well have
it report back to NSA, much like Microsoft's registration scheme, every time the
card is used.
>
> > Sorta reminds of the religious folks legend of the mark of the beast. Everybody
> > gets their own individual national identification card. Tell me, will there be an
> > optional tattoo with a serial number, in case you loose your card?
>
> HUH?
> Who said anything about "national identification card"?
One more time. Since it won't work without the NICS-like dbase and it has to be
updated all the time and the NICS is a NATIONAL DBASE, the card would be a
DEFACTO-NATIONAL ID CARD.
>
> My system simply applies to the CRIMINALS! They will be the ONLY ones
> effected! The IDs of CRIMINALS will be rejected and all the rest of us
> will be free to buy/sell guns without the government even knowing about
> the sales!
I see you nervously chanting "it's just the criminals...it's just the
criminals...it's just the criminals...it's just the criminals..." as you cower in
your basement, ineffective AK "assault" rifle in one hand, mouse in the other,
while sweating on the keyboard as your ultimate plan is torn to shreds.
hahaha...oh, careful, they will see you! They can track where the posts are
coming from. Quick! check the stairs. Reset the boobytraps! Now run up and tell
mommy to watch out for them, while you go down to tear someone a new a$$hole on
line. What a brave little man:)) "And please mommy make me a peanut butter and
jelly samminch", he cried as he re-entered the Pit of Doom.
Grow up MT!
Frank
PS Your plan does have some, however little, merit, as I originally stated. You,
however, have turned out to be an infantile jerk.
Scout
> > > to go ahead. That is gun-owner registration and gun-sales registration
> > > and that is what Brady/NICS does now.
> > >
> > > The readers would ONLY function with a daily activation code AND
> > > by hand entering text data off the face of the ID. Thus stealing
> > > a reader would do no good either!
> > >
> > > Am I getting through yet?
>
> > Ok, but what is to keep the FBI from storing transaction data inside the
> > readers, since after all no one but the FBI knows what is inside their
> > machine?
>
> Do you guys bother to READ before you trash?
>
> Look, I already SAID these things do NOT connect to a phone-line
> and they cannot be dis-assembled without destroying them!
So what does a phone line or being able to disassemble anything have to do
with being able to supply an input/output port. Heck I bet you that you are
already planning one. It IS going to have an electric cord. You do know that
you can use those same wires as input/output lines even while power is
applied.
So once again. Please try to answer the question.
> > I'm fairly certain that they will have some kind of maintenance
schedule,
> > even assuming you don't have the machine "break" when the memory is
almost
> > full.
>
> NO "maintenance schedule", because they need NO "maintenance"!
Gee, and utterly perfect device that is never going to go bad.
> If they "break", so what? The only way to make such a system
> criminal-proof is if it had NO possible connection to the world once
> they were sealed up, no external data port at all!
No electric line then? So how is it going to be powered? Batteries? Solar
cells?
Could the FBI enclose a small transmitter that would respond to an encrypted
(since you love that so much) radio transmission to start a data dump.
I mean if you are going to have security you aren't going to want these old
machines just dumped in the trash unless some enterprising individual can
get enough to decide how the operate despite their "destruction when
opened".
Which brings up the point. Exactly how are you going to insure that opening
the device will result in it's destruction? In full?
> All it would have is the keyboard for typing in the daily activation
> code and info off the face of the ID to be checked against the
> data on the magstrip (another reason copying data from another license
> could not work) and the display showing the rejection or OK!
Ah, so there is going to be a data port. Input on the keyboard, output on
the display, heck you could do it at 300 buad on an LED alone. So tell me
how are you going to prevent the FBI from chosing to add memory to record
and later document those records?
> And think about how much data those boxes would have to hold to be
> of any use! The added non-volatile memory would become the biggest
> part of the cost!
Except we don't know what the cost will be, you haven't told us what this
vaporware is going to cost. Further look at cost of EPROM and tell me that
memory is going to be a problem. Heck 16 Megs of Flash memory can be had for
under $20. A couple of dollars for glue chips for logic and input/output.
Suddenly you have enough memory to store transaction logs for a BUNCH of
transactions. Consider how much text you can pack into 16 megs. Heck you
could probably add that to the cost of the machine and no one would notice,
nor could they even determine the cost is too high since only the FBI knows
what hardware is installed so only they can determine what they should cost
to build.
> You can bet that the first time people began to see them "fail", the
> "fake-failures" would be figured out!
Really? How exactly are you going to tell this? Open it up? Take it to the
repair shop? All you would know is that it doesn't work. You wouldn't have
any idea of WHY. Nor any way to even find out that it's not really "broke".
> I suppose they could have a hidden IR port that is output only and a
> special card&code that would tell the boxes to spew their data out the IR
> port, but then, that would be VERY difficult for the gov to keep a
> secret!
ROTFLMAO........
And here you were just telling us how no one but the government could build
one because only they would know how to do so........
Care to reconsider your remarks?
Scout
> Could you please learn to read? It would help a lot!
>
> On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
>
> > The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > > TRY to think outside the box!
> >
> > I am. That's your problem.
>
> I have yet to see ANY such thinking in response to my idea!
You must have or else you wouldn't have to constantly be changing the
specifications in response to my remarks.
> The closest was the fear of data being stored in the boxes and returned
> after they got "full", but if the gov did that, it would not be able to
> keep that secret!
Yet they could keep the manner the box operates secret......Yea, Right,
Sure, and you have a bridge to sell.
> > > On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> > >
> > > > The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
>
> > So answer my question. How exactly are you going to make a system that
> > prevents someone from simply copying the magnetic arrangement from one
card
> > to another?
>
> <sigh>
> Can you copy a VHS tape if all you got is a pair of Beta video decks?
Yep. It would require a change in the manner the tape loads, but the manner
in which the data is recorded is IDENTICAL. Heck, let's even consider a
method so simple that YOU can understand and do it. Open VHS tape. Take out
tape, Wind tape onto Beta Spool until Beta spool is full. Cut tape, connect
end to other Beta Spool. Insert tape in Beta Case. Stick Beta Case into Beta
machine. Load Blank Beta Tape. Press play and record. End tape finished
repeat until all VHS is recorded. Splice all recorded segments together and
load onto VHS Spool. Insert VHS spool into VHS case.
Granted not a perfect copy, but then I was trying to make is simply enough
for even an idiot to do.
Starting to get the picture....
Sorry about the pun.
> Have you even taken a USA TV set to UK and tried to watch the TV
broadcast?
Yep. Requires a recalibration of the timing circuits to adjust to the
different timing patterns of the PAL broadcast. Otherwise all hardware
remains the same.
> Have you ever tried to read an old 5.25" floppy in a 3.5" drive?
Can say that I've tried it, but I could bet I could modifiy a 3.5" drive to
do so. Would require a change of the central spindle, extending the head
drive screw, recalibrating the track distances, but yes, it could be done.
> Have you ever tried to play an 8mm ANALOG video tape in a new 8mm DIGITAL
> camera?
Nope, could I adapt the 8mm DIGITAL camera to PLAY the 8mm ANALOG? Probably,
almost certainly. See, the difference come into play in how the data is
handled AFTER it is read by the scanning head. Change that cicuitry and
change the camera from digital to analog.
> The ONLY reason all card readers TODAY are identical is because the
> industry AGREED to make them all compatible!
Today yes, but that doesn't not mean that a non-standard card can not be
read/written just because you can't buy an commercially produced industry
standard device.
> IF a VERY different type was built and the systems were READERS only
> and the boxes were sealed so well they could not be opened to get to
> the data stream, then NOBODY would be able to see the data, and NOBODY
> would have a WRITER, because they would be tightly secured and would ONLY
> operate under FBI computer control!
Wrong. since as magnetic encoding that format is ALWAYS readable. A simple
dusting with iron dust will make that data visible even to you, if you were
to try it. Further I bet that ANY magnetic media could be duplicated with a
very small scanning head located on an x/y plotting head with high
resolution positioning and data recording capabilities. Scan the tape, then
replay what you read on the copy. Copy would almost certainly work on any
production class reader.
> Even IF you stole a reader AND a writer, they would do you no good!
> The readers would be destroyed by any attempts to take them apart
> and the writers won't work without the FBI computers to run them
> remotely!
Fine. Then tap into the FBI data lines, and record the information exchange.
Duplicate for stolen reader to enable.
Or continue reading and even enough information decode the activation
scheme.
Going to make every phone line in America untappable?
Further I notice how easily you say "destroyed by any attempt to take them
apart". This is a hoot since this is exactly how IC chip designs are stolen.
The IC Chip is taken apart including the silicon chip itself. So tell us.
How is this self-destruct going to work? Certainly I've never found anything
that couldn't be opened without wrecking it to the point that no one could
figure out how it worked. I'm certain that the military would love to hear
about such a device that were cheap and easy to mass produce since they have
BILLIONS of applications for such a "box", and they don't have them.
> > > > You can NOT, repeat NOT use something that can be changed by anyone
with
> > a
> > > > little bit of hardware and a few brain cells. It MUST be PERMENATE
AND
> > > > UNALTERABLE if you are going to fulfill your objective.
> > >
> > > Even if that were true, which it is not, you STILL need a system that
> > > is NOT VISIBLE, but may ONLY be "read" by a special reader!
>
> > The "reader" as you call it could be nothing more than a mark invisble
under
> > visible light that shows up under Ultraviolet or Infrared.
>
> Since this CAN be seen by the public, the courts have already rejected
> this!
Really? Care to provide me with a cite where courts are rejected the
inclusiong of information which is a matter of public record from documents
such as this?
> > Further you
> > haven't explained to me WHY it would have to be hidden. You claim it
would
> > be attacked by the ACLU, but you haven't explained exactly why it would
be
> > for prohibited persons, and exactly what right it would violate.
>
> READ my prior posts on this, I already SEVERAL times explained the
> problem!
Yep, you blindly claim that it would be rejected by the courts..........but
you never seem to explain how, why, or when it would or has been rejected.
> Simplest way to say it is anyone who sees the mark of shame will instantly
> assume the worst!
Hmmmm. So if I see you in court wearing prision issue, I am immediatly
assume that you are a deranged mass murder that has systematically raped,
tortured, and killed young girls?
You are wearing a "mark of shame" and you did say I would immediately assume
the worst. So why is it that when I someone in court wearing prision issue I
assume that they are there for a minor offense? Maybe because it's most
often true?
> > See,
> > anything that can cause a person to be prohibited under the law is the
> > result of a court case,
>
> NO, this is NOT TRUE!
Fine. Proof please?
> > and except for minors, all these records are open to
> > the public and as such ALREADY A MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD. So why would
it
> > matter if a matter of public record were added to your card?
>
> First, not ALL such info IS public record, second since people are people,
> they will instantly assume the worst!
And our courts are government by the illogical leaps made by ignorant
people?
> > > If it is visibale, it will be rejected!
> >
> > So you claim, but somehow you never seem to declare under what specific
> > manner it would be rejected. How can a reference to a matter of public
> > record be rejected?
>
> READ my other posts, I am really getting tired of repeating myself!
Fine. THEN QUIT DODGING AND JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.
Don't "redesign" the machine.
Don't "ignore" government's inability to keep most secrets about things that
are known.
Don't "dismiss" the ability of people to duplicate machinary made by someone
else.
Don't "make empty claims" about self-destructs and unreadable magnetic media
without telling me WHY and HOW they would be so self-destructive, or
unreadable.
Well you should be getting the idea.
IOW take what you've given me and ANSWER THE QUESTION I ASKED BASED ON WHAT
YOU'VE GIVEN ME TO DATE.
If you tend want to admit, "Yea, that would have been a loophole, but I can
close it by.....", and then explain WHY it would no longer be a loophole
perhaps I would not constantly have to keep asking you why this or that
wouldn't allow you do circumvent the protections.
For example. I've asked you about the readers. You gibly talked about lack
of an input/ouput port (ignoring that it would HAVE to do so to work) and
how it would cost too much to build the machine (ignoring the dirt cheap
cost of electronics and our ignorance about what the true cost should be or
even that the FBI might FUND this portion of the machines cost) and brushing
me off when I asked if when broken if the FBI would claim them (and if not
then what keeps people from constantly trying to take them apart), and
basically trying to ignore this whole aspect.
I you don't want to keep me from asking the same questions, then answer the
question the first time, and don't blow me off (while redesigning the
machine in response to my questions). Until you explain why XXX can't be
done then you will continue to hear me asking you why it can't.
> > > How about this, you ever hear of "smart cards"?
> >
> > Yep, but that isn't what you are asking for.
>
> I was giving that as an alternate example, if done properly those work
> quite well!
Well? Well is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that your idea of well
isn't well enough.
> > Further I note that recently in
> > France they had to redesign their telephone "smart cards" because
criminals
> > had determined how to alter the monetary value of the card.
>
> Yes, and MANY people were WARNED about serious and stupid mistakes
> many "smart cards" systems have made!
So what makes you think the FBI will be just as stupid in their design of a
"smart card"?
> Just like Cell phones! These systems were DESIGNED to FAIL from the
> start!
Again.
> > What you can design, criminals can figure out how to circumvent.
>
> So far, nobody has bothered to use even a fraction of the security
> steps that are available, they all assume just the simplest ones
> will do just fine!
Agreed. Probably because as steps are added the expense becomes higher. So
how expensive are you planning on making this system to build, operate, and
maintain?
> And those are the systems that fail to remain secure!
Yep, even the "high security" of the government. The very government you
trust to provide us with "high security" readers. Somehow this is an odd
contrast you present.
> You ever hear of "Enigma cards"?
I've heard of the products of Enigma encryption, which is irrelevent to
copying the data as encypted.
> NOBODY has EVER broken one of those!
>
> > > You are wrong about the magnetics, but if we wanted to go beyond
> > > magnetics to silicon, what possible objections could you have to
> > > Smart-Cards?
>
> > Better, but still subject to some of the same problems.
>
> NOT if the secure methods are employed!
Sure, but will they be, and what would it cost. Those are among the
questions you have failed to answer. Further I'm still waiting for you to
tell me how a magnetic pattern is "secure".
> > > > > > The encryptrion would be broken before it's even implemented.
> > False
> > > > > > ID's would kill the value pretty quick.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you think that, you don't understand modern encryption!
> > >
> > > > Who cares how it is encrypted or even what it says. If it can be
read,
> > then
> > > > it can be written, and hence copied from one card to another.
> > >
> > > Assuming you have a reader and a writer AND you KNOW exactly what you
> > > are copying!
>
> > Ok, send me a 3.5 with a file on it. I don't care what it is that I am
> > copying, but I will copy it and return it on a different 3.5.
> >
> > I don't need to know what the data is, or how it is encypted or anything
> > else. I simply have to be able to duplicate it as it currently exists.
>
> And if the track density is WAY different?
>
> If MY floppy has 100 times more tracks than your floppy drive?
Recalibrate the drive to have 100 times more steps in it's track
positioning.
> If the track density is a variable based on some number coded on the
> front of the floppy?
Read the location at the beginning of the disk and input that value (either
manually or automatically) into a control setup which regulates track steps.
> If certain spots on the floppy are to be set to values of magnetic flux
> that are in-between values that my floppy drive can read and write,
> but yours cannot detect at all?
Adjust the gain of the read head amplifier.
> > > You are still stuck in the concept of standard formats!
> >
> > Oh, going to have 4,000 different formats of readers?
>
> Not required, just one that no other reader/writer ever made has used!
Right, and odds are it will be an adaptation of an existing system. Hint -
nothing new SPRINGS full blow into existance. It is an incremental change of
existing systems.
> > Who cares how many formats there are, since you only have to duplicate
ONE
> > to be effective.
>
> I NEVER said a word about more than ONE "format"! I said a NEW format!
>
> Don't you guys READ?
Fine, and when that format is broken, you are, well, stuck.
I mean given your totally secure ideas on the 3.5" floppy idea, it really
makes me certain you know what you're talking about. NOT!
> > > You got to FORGET about standard media formats!
> >
> > So each store is going to have 4000 different readers?
>
> NO! That is NOT what I SAID!
Well then, it's a standard isn't it?
Just a new standard. <bells and whistles.wav> Big deal. 90 days, no more,
until criminals duplicate it.
> > How does that prevent me from copying but ONE of those formats?
>
> With WHAT writer do you plan to write the card when you have no clue
> about the low-level format?
The one that deposits the low-level format at the same time it copies the
rest of the data. (Hint - low level format data is just more data, which can
be copied like any other).
> > > > > You also don't understand magnetics either!
> > >
> > > > Oh, I understand them quite well. Well enough to know that if it can
be
> > read
> > > > and it can be written, then it can be copied.
> > >
> > > ONLY if the media conforms to a standard format!
>
> > Wrong. You can have a non-standard format. You would simply have to
build a
> > reader/writer to that format. Which is probably not going to be anything
> > other than a change in an existing reader with "standard format".
>
> NO!
> You are STILL STUCK in the idea of standard formats!
>
> NO EXISTING READER OR WRITER would be able to read or write the data!
>
> The very magnetic heads would be totally NEW!
>
> Try to think beyond the box for a change!
Fine, and how long do you think it would take someone to duplicate this NEW
format, particularly when you consider they can DETECT THE DATA NO MATTER
WHAT FORMAT IS USED?
Let's give you an example. VHS hasn't been invented yet. Only Beta machines
are on the market. I introduce my secure proprietary format of "VHS". No
other machine out there can read or write my new format. It is a
"non-standard format". The machines are tightly controlled. Yet tapes are
everywhere. How long do you think it would take a technogeek to adapt a
standard Beta machine to read/write your new format, particularly if given
some incentive?
> > > If the format is non-existant currently, then there is no way
> > > to know what you are looking at or copying!
>
> > You know how magnetic media words?
>
> I know how magnetic media works, if that's what you mean!
Fine, then kindly explain how I can not detect the magnetic fields recorded
on such media?
> > You have a bit of magnetic media?
>
> YEP!
>
> > You pass a coil with a flucuating current, hence magnetic field over the
> > media?
>
> So far so good!
>
> > The fluctuating magnetic field of the coil produces areas of different
> > magnetic orientation and strength.
>
> Still ok! Get that "different magnetic orientation and strength" bit?
> Think about that!
>
> > The magnetic fields remain on the media.
>
> Correct!
>
> > Magnetic fields which CAN be detected.
>
> Getting shaky now, but yes.
>
> > A couple of buffs of iron dust across the surface, and gentle breeze to
> > remove any excess, and wow, I can "read" the data. I can SEE what I am
> > trying to copy.
>
> NOPE! BOOM, dead! This is pretty much pointless!
>
> The "data" is not like a row of light switches!
>
> The data is ANALOG in nature and can be not only 1 or 0, but can be
> at odd angles too!
I see, so now you are going to attempt in encrypt ANALOG DATA. How exactly
do you control for variations in signal strength from machine to machine,
point to point on the media? How do you compensate for wear, interference by
static discharges, influenance of inclusion into weak magnetic fields? How
exactly are you going to assign fixed and constant numbers to this ANALOG
data to apply an encryption method to it? Hint - even Enigma can't handle
analog data.
So once again, you redesign the machine rather than answer the question
forcing me to ask it to you once again. In this case how is your encryption
going to be applied consistently to ANALOG data, which by it's very nature
is not consistent. So please document for us an encryption method which
accepts and works with ANALOG data.
> You also have the problem of data density and track angle to worry
> about!
No problem. The view of the magnetic fields can determine data bit spacing,
and track angles.
> NO CURRENT mag-stripe reader can handle anything but the ONE standard
> type of track data! That is how they were all designed!
Bzzzzzt.
Sorry, I know of a least 1 different propietary system which is not of the
"standard format". Your knowledge (lack of that is) is frankly amazing.
> All these mag-stripe readers work exactly the same and the data is EASY
> to read by almost any means, they were designed that way for ease of use,
> they were not designed for security.
Ah, but then this machine of yours is going to be complex. Heck, and here I
thought you just told me it would be cheap. So cheap that $20 of memory
would significantly alter the price. So how much are these readers $1000,
$2000, $4000 or more?
> Same problem for the early use of Smart-Card and Cell phones, they just
> never bothered to use the security technology that was available, they
> just went with what was easy!
You of course expect a different response here.
Further again, they went with what security they did because it was cheap.
You did say this was going to be a cheap system to build?
> > Sheese. What a self proclaimed "expert" you are.
>
> Clearly far more than you!
Only in your own mind. If I'm so much less of an expert than you, why do you
constantly have to alter the specificants of your "machine" because of the
issues I raise? I mean think about it, there almost isn't a post between us
that does NOT involve you altering, changing, and/or enhancing the manner in
which your "machine" operates. If I were such a dummy then why would those
alterations have to be made?
> > > > So tell me what exactly is to prevent me from designing a card
reader
> > that
> > > > will read the particular pattern on the back of card "A" belonging
to Mr
> > > > Lawabiding Citizen, and then writting an identical copy of that
pattern
> > to
> > > > the back of card "B" belonging to Mr. Violent Murderer?
> > >
> > > What makes you think you will even recognize the "pattern"?
> > >
> > > If there are NO card writers in the WORLD that follows the standards
> > > that will be used in the new writers,
>
> > If there are no writers, then what good is your idea?
>
> <sigh>
> CURRENTLY there are no writers! They would be designed and built
> for the project!
Of course, none of the design engineers are going to how the machine they
designed functions, nor any of the supply clerks know what parts go into it,
or production workers that know how these parts go together, etc?
Where exactly do you expect these readers to come from? Is God going to hand
them down to you?
> Your "box" seems even smaller than I figured! If you failed to understand
> even that!
Nope, you fail to understand that each and every person involved in the
design, assembly, production and so on is eitehr going to know how to build
one complete, or know part of how to build one. How are you going to stop
those people from talking to criminals? Shoot them at the end of the
production run?
> > > then what chance has anyone got
> > > to write a card without stealing a writer, and if the writer won't
> > > work without direct control from a remote FBI system, even if you
> > > could steal one, it would do you NO GOOD!
>
> > Sorry, but anything you could design, I could duplicate given time.
>
> And what good would it do you, even IF you could?
Well I bet criminals would pay me good money, if I chose to go that way.
> Since you not only have to figure out the complexities of the magnetic
> media writer/reader, but you would also have to build some custom
> cutting-edge magnetic heads, then you would have to figure out how
> to read & write the data and then the particular pattern would also
> have to match with the textual face data on the ID and...
Textual face data? Another Addition? What difference would the textual face
data make when as you say it has an LED for Yes, and one for No. Once again
this idiot manages to force you to add more complexity to your system in an
attempt to deal with his pointing out loopholes. Actually, this is one of
the better ideas you have had, but then it makes the concerns of illegal
record keeping so much more significant since the machine would now have
such data to record transactions. It's not longer just a yes/no code, now
the machine recieves your personal data as well. So once again, tell me why
this data could not be recorded in the machine?
However, even textual data is no problem, since entire IDs can already be
produced. Simply duplicate all data of the ID, but alter the photo to the
criminal of choice. Going to add photo data now? As an ANALOG picture?
ROTFLMAO.
> That is quite a lot of work to do!
Yep, how much did you say these machines were going to cost?
$6,000?
$8,000?
> You might as well be trying to print MONEY!
ROTFLMAO. As if people weren't already printing bogus MONEY!!!
> But this money would need
> to not only fool the eye, but fool the machines too!
The machines would be a bit harder, but when fooled they are completely
fooled, and never have doubts. Nor do they make particularly great
witnesses. Heck, I understand machines are accepting photocopied Bills, and
so have people. I suppose you could get both a person and a machine to
accept one at the same time. heck and this is with a photocopy.........
Get the idea that even our money isn't as secure as you think it is?
> > > > > Think about how pissed-off the NSA and most of the USA gov is at
> > > > > modern encryption methods!
> > > > >
> > > > > Current strong encryption already is so tough to crack that even
> > > > > the NSA can't break it!
> > > > >
> > > > > I have worked on classified projects, I KNOW what I am talking
about!
> > >
> > > > Fine, then DON'T break the encryption, simple copy the data as is.
Boom,
> > > > instant authorization to buy.
> > >
> > > If nobody but the cops has compatible writers, how could you do so?
>
> > Simple, build compatable reader/writers.
>
> HOW?
> Where would you get the specs and what electronics company would make them
> for you?
Well the parts I could buy from any supplier. The specs I could obtain from
the card itself, and I would build it myself.
> > > If the writers won't function except by FBI control, what good
> > > would they do even if you stole one?
>
> > Well, what keeps the FBI from simply recording transaction information
which
> > time the control code is requested?
>
> Why can't you guys READ?
>
> The ONLY people who would EVER come into contact with a WRITER would be
> the CRIMINALS and other prohibited persons!
>
> These people are EXACTLY who the FBI WOULD keep a list of!
>
> The in-store units would have NO connections to the outside at all
> except for the "OK" or "REJECT" display, which could just be a pair
> of lights!
So much for your " textual face data", since the person with the reader
couldn't check it anyway. IOW a simple copy of an existing code.
> > Are you telling us that the control code can't be duplicated either?
>
> The "control code" for the writers would be run remotely to prevent anyone
> from activating a writer box without FBI authorization!
Fine. I hook a recorder to the phone line, play back the exchange from the
FBI computer, and Wow, my writer is on-line.
> This would keep dis-honest cops from selling a "correction" to a criminal!
Really? And how would the FBI know that this wasn't simply a correction of
someone arrested by not convicted?
> Such "corrections" back to an "OK" would be fairly rare, most of the time,
> the writers would be putting a "reject" on the ID!
Not if the code were entered simply for being arrested, since most of the
time the charge is NOT going to be for a offense that prohibits ownership.
Or are you going to suddenly change your mind on this too?
> > > > > > And people would develop scanners to read the card,
> > > > >
> > > > > NO, the best anyone could do on their own would be to recognize
> > > > > a card that has some of these new code on it, they could NOT
> > > > > read the data without one of the FBI created scanners!
> > >
> > > > Why? Does the FBI have some kind of super duper highly secret method
of
> > > > reading that could not be duplicated by anyone else?
> > >
> > > Not required, the technology is fairly simple to develop a totally
> > > NEW system!
>
> > Which would be just as easily duplicated.
>
> HOW?
> Magnetic heads are no longer things you can wind by hand anymore!
> These are high-tech silicon chip technologies we are talking about here!
> There are not even any actual "coils" of wire any more, they are now
> made of etched silicon on a ceramic substrate.
Gee, we start off with the magnetic strip on the back of your existing
driver's license, and suddenly we are in the 24th century of
technology........
> Just what high-tech silicon makers are you going to get to make you
> these heads?
Foreign.
> Lets say you convince China to help out and you manage to steal
> some readers and writers and their scientists use scanning
> electron microscopes to reverse engineer the heads and the silicon
> and eventually manage to create a writer for you at HUGE expense
> which you can use to write an exact copy of data off an "OK"
> ID.
Actually, chips can be reverse enginneered for only a fraction of what they
cost to design. So tell me, how much are you going to spend building this
thing in the cost place?
> Now, if that data is also keyed to the face text, you would also need
> to have the encryption method broken, something our NSA has a hard enough
> time doing!
Which is irrelevent since the reader has only two lights, Yes or No. Who
cares if the face text matches since the operator can't determine that
anyway?
Oh, Yes, now we get to add a scanner, an OCR, and vertification information.
How much more complex does this get? Stay tuned for the lastest multimillion
dollar addition to "the machine".
> Basically, you would do much better to produce totally fake IDs
> of current state IDs. That would be simpler and far cheaper!
Ok, so let's say I do so. Your system is still worthless...
> > > > Even assuming those readers could not be stolen or misused.
> > >
> > > READERS , yes, but you NEED a writer too! And those can be VERY
> > > tightly secured!
>
> > If you can read the data,
>
> How would you be able to see what the data was, unless you were able
> to take apart the readers to get to the data coming off the heads?
Directly off the cards themselves.
> > then you know the EXACT format in which that data
> > is placed on the card.
>
> Even assuming you could see a data stream off the reader, so what?
> You still have no idea how the data is coming off the card!
Simple look at the location and movement capacity (if any) of the heads.
Even if the reader is "broken" I can still determine this.
> > Given that information you know EXACTLY how that data
> > would need to be written. Heck you would then even have a test method to
see
> > if it was done properly.
>
> You are still thinking inside the box!
And you still can't deal with my questions. You and your stupid box, Heck so
far you've come up with a machine that is expensive, complex, nevermind
vaporware and impossible to produce.
> > > > > And since anyone arrested would have such changes done on their
> > > > > card, the MAJORITY of those with the change would NOT be rejected
> > > > > for a gun! So knowing this would be meaningless!
> > >
> > > > Who cares what the data is, as you already told us the output is
either
> > > > "yes" or "no", how hard is it to duplicate the information?
> > >
> > > VERY difficult!
>
> > Empty claim without substance. Please tell us an item of magnetic media
that
> > has not and never could be copied?
>
> It can be, IF you know exactly how the system works and you have a
> complete set of hardware and software to run it! Since the encryption
> system and writer runs ONLY by remote from FBI systems, you cannot
> find out!
The FBI is going to get it from where? Commerical contractor? The people
that design this are all, of course, going to work with their eyes closed?
> > > Especially if you have no idea of the data density or placement!
>
> > That is what the stolen reader is for.
>
> But what good is it if you cannot get access to the DATA!
If I have the reader, I can duplicate the read heads, design, location and
movements. From that I can obtain the data.
> All you can see is the "OK" or "REJECT", the card reader does NOT allow
> for any access to the data stream! And the box cannot be taken apart
> without destruction!
So destroy it. I don't care if it works after I open it, is the hardware
going to suddenly evaporate? Then I can examine the guts and use that to
help me figure out what I need to know.
^^^^^^^
> Can you see this WORD? This is a HYPOTHETICAL example to AID
> in your in-ability to understand!
Yep, and it does not matter. The only manner to insure it's "destruction" is
if it blows itself up, burns itself up, or vaporizes. Which are you planning
on, since you never know when you are going to want a pre-made bomb or
incendary device, or a murder weapon that they can never trace since it's
"gone".
> > > waqs exposed to a radioactive source in different places, and the
> > > placement on the card was a combination of the text info on the card
> > > and the "YES" or "NO". All around the card there would be dozens
> > > of "red-herrings" of random spots of radioactivity to confuse
> > > anyone just detecting all around the card.
>
> > Excuse me, but from my understanding radioactivity is one of those
things
> > that will eventually ERASE magnetic media.
>
> OOOOOOOOOO, PLEASE! Can't you freakin READ!
>
> I offered that as an example to help you comprehend what I am talking
> about and you TOTALLY FAILED to EVEN UNDERSTAND THAT FACT!
Right, magnetic media, radiation = JUNK
I don't understand that you can't combine radiation and magnetic media and
expect to get anything but junk off of your media.
So tell me what exactly is the radiation for once it wipes your data?
However, let's get back to your example. That one didn't work. Care to try
one that will? Or is this technology going to suddenly appear when we are
ready to build it?
> > How exactly are you going to place random radation on this card?
> >
> > What exactly is the public going to think about carrying around a
> > radioactive card?
> >
> > What exactly does a radiation spot have to do with reading a magnetic
field,
> > two utterly different types of influance.
>
> Are you really this DUMB? Or are you just jerkin around to be annoying?
Nope, I am DIRECTLY responding to statements of yours about how to make this
card work. If your example is junk, then how can the product by any thing
else?
> > > Now, This system lacks encryption of course, and the "spot" density
> > > is many many orders of magnitude less than magnetics, but maybe you
> > > are getting a little of how things work.
> >
> > Yep, you can't answer the question, except to continually make it more
> > complex.
>
> I HAVE answered the question! Layers of complexity is the key!
Layers of complexity? Ok, good enough as far as it goes, but the problem is
most of your layers are IRRELEVENT TO STOPPING DUPLICTION OF A GOOD "YES"
CODE!!!
I've seen better productions of "vaporware products" from Microsoft.
> > 1: Simple encypted data on back of card
> > 2: Complex encypted data on back of card
> > 3: Complex encrypted data on back of card using "secret method" of
encoding
> > 4: Writers require FBI control code to function
>
> That is a start!
>
> > 5: Random radiation patter now required.
>
> This was a HYPOTHETICAL TWIT!
Oh, so now you don't mean it. Ok then go back to my previous post and ANSWER
THE QUESTION SINCE HYPOTHETICAL VAPORWARE DOES NOT CUT THE MUSTARD!!!
> > You keep adding junk to the system, and STILL have FAILED TO ANSWER THE
> > QUESTION.
>
> I have answered the question, but you seem to have difficulty READING!
Nope, your answer was "hypothetical". Sorry, but my question wasn't.
Care to answer the question with facts?
> > > Since the "yes/no" placement is realted to the face text data,
> > > the same EXACT spot placement would be of NO USE at all on
> > > a different ID for a different person!
> > >
> > > When they scan the card, they first enter some of the text from the
> > > front of the card, that tells the reader which spot is the one that
> > > matters!
>
> > Oh, now a NEW condition.
>
> NOT NEW AT ALL, THIS WAS ALWAYS A PART OF IT!
Really, care to point out your post in which this was presented prior to
that one?
> GET SOME NEW GLASSES, YOU ARE FAILING TO READ ENGLISH!
>
> > > And that ASSUMES that you could detect ALL the radioactivity correctly
> > > and somehow create a writer to place the exact same spots on the ID!
> >
> > Which eventually could be done.
> >
> > One simple question, have you noticed how complex the card has become
simply
> > in response to what I could think of, can you imagine how much more
complex
> > it would have to become when some million criminals begin to think of
how to
> > defeat it?
>
> IT ONLY SEEMS COMPLEX TO YOU BECAUSE YOU CAN'T READ!
>
> I added NOTHING new to the system in this post or the prior one!
Really? And your self erasing radiation card was mentioned exactly where
before?
Your recording of ANALOG data was recorded exactly where before?
Your use of silicon "smart cards" were mentioned in which prior post?
Your lack of input/output options was discuss in which news post?
Your discussion about how to prevent illegal recording of transactions by
the machine was discussed in depth on what date prior to my messages?
Sorry, but you are, have and continue to include items not previouly
detailed, and even then some of it is "hypothetical" (another word for I
don't know how to get it done).
> > > Are you beginning to think outside the box yet?
>
> Clearly, you not only can't think outside the box, you can't even read
> the posts on the box you can operate!
Fine, then tell you what. Let's stop having to drag the design out of you
one piece at a time. Why don't you simply list for me, the complete and full
design criteria of the reader, writer, and card. Explain in depth exactly
why any/all of my objections to date are irrelevent. Then cost the deisgn
and production of each component of it.
All you have to do is answer my objections in full, and stop forcing me to
drag it out of you one detail at a time. Oh, PS please current technology no
"hypothetical" nonsense.
> MT
>
Scout
cguinn <no...@jose.com> wrote in message
news:3784c722....@207.230.32.3...
> >> prevents someone from simply copying the magnetic arrangement from one
card
> >> to another?
> >
> ><sigh>
> >Can you copy a VHS tape if all you got is a pair of Beta video decks?
> >
> >Have you even taken a USA TV set to UK and tried to watch the TV
broadcast?
> >
> >Have you ever tried to read an old 5.25" floppy in a 3.5" drive?
> >
> >Have you ever tried to play an 8mm ANALOG video tape in a new 8mm DIGITAL
> >camera?
> >
> >The ONLY reason all card readers TODAY are identical is because the
> >industry AGREED to make them all compatible!
> >
> >IF a VERY different type was built and the systems were READERS only
> >and the boxes were sealed so well they could not be opened to get to
> >the data stream, then NOBODY would be able to see the data, and NOBODY
> >would have a WRITER, because they would be tightly secured and would ONLY
> >operate under FBI computer control!
> >
> >Even IF you stole a reader AND a writer, they would do you no good!
> >The readers would be destroyed by any attempts to take them apart
> >and the writers won't work without the FBI computers to run them
> >remotely!
>
> experience!
>
> The security system where I work has mag-stripe cards that are
> PROPRIATARY encoded! We tried to have on analyzed, (because the
> pre-encoded ones cost $4.00 each and blank cards only cost $0.30!) We
> wanted to encode our own cards and save money. SORRY! Can't do it!!
> They couldn't even READ what was on the card!
Better be careful. The trainers will tell you such a system doesn't exist
since after all, ALL such readers use the same single format. Ha.
However, if you were willing to foot the bill I could produce a
reader/writer for you. Odds are however, that unless you are a fairly large
company it wouldn't be cheaper than spending $4 per card. I mean if you're
talking $400 it wouldn't pay, start talking $4,000 or $40,000 and it would.
Assuming that various legal aspects weren't an issue. Something criminals
don't have to worry about. :-)
> So yes, you MUST have one of the special boxes to read/write the
> cards. I'll accept that.
Only if you're not a criminal.
> What I still don't accept is the idea that
> SOMEONE won't be able to get their hands on a box, figure out how it
> works, and start faking ID's.
My point, but then as MT will no doubt tell you "stop thinking in the box".
Whatever that means.....
> I've seen recently where a FL man was
> arrested for intercepting the data sent to police terminals (those
> little consoles in their cruisers that let them check lic.plates,
> warrents, etc.) I even saw on Discovery Channel where a hacker had
> BOUGHT a used one, (sans power supply,) at a FLEA MARKET! All he had
> to do was hook up a new power supply and BINGO, he was in! What makes
> anyone think that this will be any different?
because they use technology but don't understand it?
Scout
The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.10.99070...@shell11.ba.best.com...
>
>
Gee, and just a few messages back you were telling me that such information
is not public record. Are you revising your story?
Scout
The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.10.99070...@shell11.ba.best.com...
>
>
> On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Jorge Landivar wrote:
>
> > The-Trainers wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > > > >
> > > > > > The-Trainers wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Not that I have EVER heard of!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They don't have to fool magnetic readers, they have to fool
people. And
> > > > the do
> > > > > > frequently. or !!
> > > > >
> > > > > Fine, but as I said, since these cards are ONLY read by these new
special
> > > > > mag readers and those cannot be fooled, it makes no difference!
> > > >
> > > > And you don't think anyone else is smart enough to design a
reader/writer to
> > > > the same specifications?
> > >
> > > And how exactly would the get the specs?
> >
> > Steal them, dig them out of the trash, pay off some low level bureaucrat
>
> So what, the specs, even if you could get them, and even if you had a
> silicon chip maker with expertise in magnetic heads to make them for you,
Hint: Silicon is not used to make recording heads.
> it would still do you no good without knowing how the data is detected
See spec sheet.
> and written,
See spec sheet.
> and worse, how you would get that data to match up with
> the face text data!
Copy test on face of card and use a different photograph.
Gee, that wasn't so hard......
I wonder if MT will be able to see that?
Probably not.
Scout
The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSF.4.10.99070...@shell11.ba.best.com...
>
>
>
>
> NO, I am NOT "talking a linear magnetic strip"!
>
> It may be rectangular in nature, but it is NOT "linear" by nature!
Ok so you decide to go with a non-linear. Which means mechancal movement
closely matched to the movement of the card. That means mechanical parts,
that means wear, that means adjustment. Which of course can not be preformed
in a "sealed box" so off it goes to be replaced with another ?$4,000?
reader. Or you could leave the card stationary, and let the machine scan it,
but that still means moving parts. That means complexity and cost. Say what
a vcr cost before mass production lowered the cost.
> > plastic card, there is ONLY so much you could do to try and alter the
manner
> > in which the magnetic fields are placed on the card.
>
> NO, there are an infinite variety of ways to use that media!
Certainly, but they are all variations of the same basic theme.
It's like playing "Row your Boat" you can play it on a piano, you can play
it on a harp, you can play it with one hand, or both, but in the end it
remains "Row your Boat" and only such much can be done on that theme, no
matter how "infinite" the variations become.
> > Any pattern you can
> > think of, I will bet criminals could duplicate in under 90 days,
>
> NOPE!
> There are NO existing card readers or writers that would be able to make
> ANY sense at all of the new data!
So? Would that be true 90 days after the introduction of the card? No.
> > and then simply copy the data from one card to another.
>
> NOPE!
> Even if you had the cooperation of a cop and a functional reader/writer
> pair and somehow you could copy all the data without understanding
> the encryption, it still would do you no good, because it would be
> keyed to the face/text data too!
As if duplication the fact/text data is a particular hard job. Heck
criminals do that NOW!!!!!
> If the "OK" card data did not match the encoded data, that would be a
> REJECT!
Your problem is that you either don't, won't or can't address our
objections. Play all the games you like, in the end, it is data recorded on
magnetic media that can and will be duplicatable.
> You guys just keep failing to READ and failing to think outside the box!
You of course, can't even understand our objections, because if you did you
would try to address them rather than blow us off. Further you lack of
understanding of what technology can and can not do does not exactly give
faith to your claims about this machine.
Scout
Frank <f...@therange.com> wrote in message
news:3783B8AB...@therange.com...
> This is your problem. You are a self-centered stupid egotistical
motherf@$@$@$!
> I'm not objecting, you A$$HOLE, I'm telling you problems that seem
reasonable to
> me. You asked for for comments. I'm giving them to you. You respond
with
> extreme rudeness. Why did you even put the word "comments?" on the
original
> post. Were you just looking for reason to vent Anonymously like the
craven coward
> you are!! You don't even have the balls to put your name on the posting.
Come on Frank, don't beat around the bush, tell us what you REALLY think.
:-)
The-Trainers
On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > So what, the specs, even if you could get them, and even if you had a
> > silicon chip maker with expertise in magnetic heads to make them for you,
> Hint: Silicon is not used to make recording heads.
Hint: YES it is, ask any disk-drive maker! They use silicon substrates
for some types of heads and ceramic substrates for others!
You ever hear of "Magneto-resistive" recording heads?
You ever hear of "micro-air-gap" recording heads?
You ever heard of "vertical-field" recording heads?
And even the ones that don't use silicon, DO use the SAME methods and
the SAME size objects and the SAME sort of expensive machines to make the
heads!
They ETCH the "coils" and use vacuum deposition methods to create
micro-heads these days!
They don't use wire coils anymore, except in very low data density
applications, like audio recordings, and that is not what I am talking
about!
> > and worse, how you would get that data to match up with
> > the face text data!
>
> Copy test on face of card and use a different photograph.
If criminals are able to totally fake a modern state ID, then we have much
bigger problems than guns!
I have said this many times before!
For example, in todays NICS/Brady system if someone has stolen the
identity of an innocent person and gotten a good state ID, then of
course the NICS checks or Brady waiting periods will have no effect!
I NEVER claimed my system would solve that problem, but neither does
NICS!
What I have said is my system is a great deal BETTER than NICS/Brady
from ALL points of view except for the gun-haters who want total
registration of owners!
> I wonder if MT will be able to see that?
I see it just fine, I also NEVER claimed otherwise!
I NEVER intended my system to make up for the failure of state ID
protection, just that my system is better than NICS/Brady!
MT
The-Trainers
On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> >
> > > I mean get real you are talking a linear magnetic strip on the back of a
> >
> > NO, I am NOT "talking a linear magnetic strip"!
> >
> > It may be rectangular in nature, but it is NOT "linear" by nature!
>
> Ok so you decide to go with a non-linear. Which means mechancal movement
NO! it does not!
It just means different head types!
This sort of thing has been done in other high-density applications
already!
> Or you could leave the card stationary, and let the machine scan it,
> but that still means moving parts.
NO! You don't need any moving parts to do a scan!
The card can be scanned at any speed by hand movement, no need for moving
parts, even if you use spiral fields, which is not even required!
> > > plastic card, there is ONLY so much you could do to try and alter the
> manner
> > > in which the magnetic fields are placed on the card.
> >
> > NO, there are an infinite variety of ways to use that media!
>
> Certainly, but they are all variations of the same basic theme.
Not really, they only have one thing in-common, they use magnetic
properties!
> It's like playing "Row your Boat" you can play it on a piano, you can play
> it on a harp, you can play it with one hand, or both, but in the end it
> remains "Row your Boat" and only such much can be done on that theme, no
> matter how "infinite" the variations become.
No, it's like telling someone you were listening to "music", there are
infinite varieties of music!
> > NOPE!
> > There are NO existing card readers or writers that would be able to make
> > ANY sense at all of the new data!
> So? Would that be true 90 days after the introduction of the card? No.
And who would produce them?
And who would know what do do with them, even if the heads were available?
And who could figure out the encryption?
> > NOPE!
> > Even if you had the cooperation of a cop and a functional reader/writer
> > pair and somehow you could copy all the data without understanding
> > the encryption, it still would do you no good, because it would be
> > keyed to the face/text data too!
>
> As if duplication the fact/text data is a particular hard job. Heck
> criminals do that NOW!!!!!
As I have said, I NEVER intended my system to prevent the stealing of
identities by creating fully faked IDs!
IF criminals cab defeat current IDs, then that is a bigger problem
that NICS/Brady cannot solve either!
I NEVER claimed my system changes that!
I said my system was BETTER than NICS/Brady!
> > If the "OK" card data did not match the encoded data, that would be a
> > REJECT!
> Your problem is that you either don't, won't or can't address our
> objections.
Such as?
All you have been telling me is that you don't understand technologies
that I have WORKED with and I KNOW how it works!
> Play all the games you like, in the end, it is data recorded on
> magnetic media that can and will be duplicatable.
The state IDs may be able to be faked, mainly because they make no efforts
to do anything beyond the visible marks and because they will issue
them to people even when those people have stolen identities!
But I never claimed my system did anything about that!
> > You guys just keep failing to READ and failing to think outside the box!
>
> You of course, can't even understand our objections,
I understood EVERY word you guys have said!
I just know the technologies I have worked with, and I know what can be
done!
> because if you did you
> would try to address them rather than blow us off.
I have addressed them, you just refuse to listen!
> Further you lack of
> understanding of what technology can and can not do does not exactly give
> faith to your claims about this machine.
Well, sine I have worked directly with the technology of which I speak
and I have been an electronics engineer for over 20 years and I have
worked on many projects employing such methods, I do understand them
pretty well!
How about you?
Little test, can you explain the "Hall Effect"?
Can you explain how a "Magnetometer" works?
Can you tell me what PWM means or PD or Recursive recovery or...
How about "Ion implantation"?
Do you have any idea how any of these technologies work?
Can you explain how the modern recording heads for 8mm data tapes are
made?
Can you explain how the very same tape that could hardly hold 100
megabytes a few years ago can now hold 30 GIGa bytes today?
Do you know anything about these technologies?
MT
The-Trainers
On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
>
> The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > > > Ok, I'll say it again, please follow.
> > > >
> > > > The FBI would keep records on ALL BANNED persons.
> > >
> > > I'm against it already. :-)
> >
> > They already have access to this for the majority of prohibited persons,
> > it is public records for most such people!
> >
> > You are aware of NICS & Brady, right?
>
> Gee, and just a few messages back you were telling me that such information
> is not public record. Are you revising your story?
<sigh>
NO, I said that today, not ALL of the information is public record!
I also said that the FBI can get access to most if not all this info on
the prohibited persons, but that others may well not be able to,
and probably should not either!
Like Juvi records.
I think a Juvi who does violent felonies should be counted as a
prohibited person for life, IF anyone is!
Personally, I would be just as happy to end all these stupid laws
and let the cops do some enforcement for a change, but we got to
go with what we can get!
MT
Scout
> > > silicon chip maker with expertise in magnetic heads to make them for
you,
>
> > Hint: Silicon is not used to make recording heads.
>
> Hint: YES it is, ask any disk-drive maker! They use silicon substrates
> for some types of heads and ceramic substrates for others!
Another free hint. A substrate is NOT the device, it is the foundation on
which the device is built. The actual recording head is made up of deposited
aluminum, silver, or other conductive metal.
> You ever hear of "Magneto-resistive" recording heads?
>
> You ever hear of "micro-air-gap" recording heads?
>
> You ever heard of "vertical-field" recording heads?
>
> And even the ones that don't use silicon, DO use the SAME methods and
> the SAME size objects and the SAME sort of expensive machines to make the
> heads!
Yep, and without exception the actual active device is NOT the silicon but
the stuff the silicon holds in place.
> They ETCH the "coils" and use vacuum deposition methods to create
> micro-heads these days!
Yep, and the COIL NOT THE FORM is the active device.
> They don't use wire coils anymore, except in very low data density
> applications, like audio recordings, and that is not what I am talking
> about!
Of course not. Cheaper and simplier to use deposited coils built up on a
cheap substrate. But the substrate is not the device.
> > > and worse, how you would get that data to match up with
> > > the face text data!
> >
> > Copy test on face of card and use a different photograph.
>
> If criminals are able to totally fake a modern state ID, then we have much
> bigger problems than guns!
>
> I have said this many times before!
>
> For example, in todays NICS/Brady system if someone has stolen the
> identity of an innocent person and gotten a good state ID, then of
> course the NICS checks or Brady waiting periods will have no effect!
>
> I NEVER claimed my system would solve that problem, but neither does
> NICS!
You were telling us that it couldn't be duplicated. So which is it?
> What I have said is my system is a great deal BETTER than NICS/Brady
> from ALL points of view except for the gun-haters who want total
> registration of owners!
Better? Probably, but then again you still have to address the central
database requirements to operate such a system. Nor have you yet explained
by a visible indicator would not be allowable.
> > I wonder if MT will be able to see that?
>
> I see it just fine, I also NEVER claimed otherwise!
>
> I NEVER intended my system to make up for the failure of state ID
> protection, just that my system is better than NICS/Brady!
Finally, I thought you would never understand. Either that or you did
understand and I didn't. Whatever isn't important now. So two last issues
noted above and I think we can wrap this up.
The-Trainers
On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
>
> cguinn <no...@jose.com> wrote in message
> > On Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:24:51 -0700, The-Trainers <trai...@best.com>
> > wrote:
> > >> So answer my question. How exactly are you going to make a system that
> > >> prevents someone from simply copying the magnetic arrangement from one
> card
> > >> to another?
> > >The ONLY reason all card readers TODAY are identical is because the
> > >industry AGREED to make them all compatible!
Picky, picky, I should have said most, ok, happy now?
> > Well, "The-Trainers" has you there! I know this from personal
> > experience!
> >
> > The security system where I work has mag-stripe cards that are
> > PROPRIATARY encoded! We tried to have on analyzed, (because the
> > pre-encoded ones cost $4.00 each and blank cards only cost $0.30!) We
> > wanted to encode our own cards and save money. SORRY! Can't do it!!
> > They couldn't even READ what was on the card!
FINALLY! Somebody gets it!
> Better be careful. The trainers will tell you such a system doesn't exist
> since after all, ALL such readers use the same single format. Ha.
Oh, PUHLEASE!
I said such alternate card readers have been made, I even said I worked on
such a project!
> However, if you were willing to foot the bill I could produce a
> reader/writer for you.
Then you have a plant able to make such fine etched magnetic heads?
You have the design engineers at your disposal?
> Assuming that various legal aspects weren't an issue. Something criminals
> don't have to worry about. :-)
No, but most criminals don't have a huge budget and a high-tech
electronics company at their disposal, do you?
> > So yes, you MUST have one of the special boxes to read/write the
> > cards. I'll accept that.
> Only if you're not a criminal.
Regardless!
> > What I still don't accept is the idea that
> > SOMEONE won't be able to get their hands on a box, figure out how it
> > works, and start faking ID's.
>
> My point, but then as MT will no doubt tell you "stop thinking in the box".
>
> Whatever that means.....
That means that your understanding of the technologies involved is being
limited by your refusal to think past the common place limits of your
limited experience!
> > I've seen recently where a FL man was
> > arrested for intercepting the data sent to police terminals (those
> > little consoles in their cruisers that let them check lic.plates,
> > warrents, etc.) I even saw on Discovery Channel where a hacker had
> > BOUGHT a used one, (sans power supply,) at a FLEA MARKET! All he had
> > to do was hook up a new power supply and BINGO, he was in! What makes
> > anyone think that this will be any different?
>
> because they use technology but don't understand it?
Right, because that technology was NEVER thought out in advance!
They made NO effort at security, just like the Cell Phones were
designed so badly they were able to "clone" them instantly!
I worked with a cell phone system and read the specs, the system had
nothing about security at all! They did nothing to prevent theft
of service in that system, and thus we all got taken by the criminals!
Most systems get made and deployed with no though to system security at
all!
Little wonder that people THINK criminals can break any system, most
people have never seen a secure system!
MT
The-Trainers
On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> >
> > I have yet to see ANY such thinking in response to my idea!
>
> You must have or else you wouldn't have to constantly be changing the
> specifications in response to my remarks.
I have changed NOTHING, you just keep failing to READ!
> > The closest was the fear of data being stored in the boxes and returned
> > after they got "full", but if the gov did that, it would not be able to
> > keep that secret!
> Yet they could keep the manner the box operates secret......Yea, Right,
> Sure, and you have a bridge to sell.
The difference is that the data stored in the boxes would be required to
be collected from ALL boxes, that sort of massive movement of materials
would be noticed and discovered at the first meeting or discussion
of these boxes!
Since electronics is highly reliable these days, it would be VERY obvious
to anyone that something fishy was going on when 100% of the readers
would need to be returned or would require "fixing"!
The design on the other-hand can be done with very high security and can
even be split up into sections with even the people working on the
project not knowing what they are making or what the intended use is!
> > > > On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> > > > > The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > Can you copy a VHS tape if all you got is a pair of Beta video decks?
> Yep. It would require a change in the manner the tape loads, but the manner
> in which the data is recorded is IDENTICAL.
NO, IT IS NOT! The recording method is DIFFERENT! The heads are different!
The electronics to run the heads are different!
A recording made with one method will NOT be understandable by the other
type of deck!
The Beta recording method is quite different than the VHS method, in fact,
the Beta method is a higher quality method than VHS.
> Open VHS tape. Take out
> tape, Wind tape onto Beta Spool until Beta spool is full. Cut tape, connect
> end to other Beta Spool. Insert tape in Beta Case. Stick Beta Case into Beta
> machine. Load Blank Beta Tape. Press play and record. End tape finished
> repeat until all VHS is recorded. Splice all recorded segments together and
> load onto VHS Spool. Insert VHS spool into VHS case.
>
> Granted not a perfect copy, but then I was trying to make is simply enough
> for even an idiot to do.
It would NOT work at all!
> Starting to get the picture....
YES, you are thinking in an even SMALLER box than I thought!
> > Have you even taken a USA TV set to UK and tried to watch the TV
> broadcast?
> Yep. Requires a recalibration of the timing circuits to adjust to the
> different timing patterns of the PAL broadcast. Otherwise all hardware
> remains the same.
NOPE!
The number of scan lines are even different! The number of dots across the
screen are different!
And look to Japan, there system is differnt still!
> > Have you ever tried to read an old 5.25" floppy in a 3.5" drive?
> Can say that I've tried it, but I could bet I could modifiy a 3.5" drive to
> do so. Would require a change of the central spindle, extending the head
> drive screw, recalibrating the track distances, but yes, it could be done.
NO, it cannot be done!
The track densities are way different, the bit-densities are different,
the recording formats are different, the spin rates are different,
the head angle is different, the heads are different, the electronics
are different!
> > Have you ever tried to play an 8mm ANALOG video tape in a new 8mm DIGITAL
> > camera?
> Nope, could I adapt the 8mm DIGITAL camera to PLAY the 8mm ANALOG? Probably,
> almost certainly. See, the difference come into play in how the data is
> handled AFTER it is read by the scanning head. Change that cicuitry and
> change the camera from digital to analog.
NO!
The data ON the media is DIFFERENT! The means of the recording is
DIFFERENT!
The heads for the analog 8mm camera can't even begin to deal with the
digital data, and the digital heads will just see the analog data
as noise!
You are even MORE ignorant that I imagined!
No wonder you cannot understand!
> > The ONLY reason all card readers TODAY are identical is because the
> > industry AGREED to make them all compatible!
I should have said most.
> Today yes, but that doesn't not mean that a non-standard card can not be
> read/written just because you can't buy an commercially produced industry
> standard device.
They can and have been made, but they are expensive to design and can
be made in an infinite variety of forms and functions!
The heads themselves are only PART of the issue, the electronics that
run the heads are also a critical item!
> > IF a VERY different type was built and the systems were READERS only
> > and the boxes were sealed so well they could not be opened to get to
> > the data stream, then NOBODY would be able to see the data, and NOBODY
> > would have a WRITER, because they would be tightly secured and would ONLY
> > operate under FBI computer control!
> Wrong. since as magnetic encoding that format is ALWAYS readable. A simple
> dusting with iron dust will make that data visible even to you, if you were
> to try it. Further I bet that ANY magnetic media could be duplicated with a
> very small scanning head located on an x/y plotting head with high
> resolution positioning and data recording capabilities. Scan the tape, then
> replay what you read on the copy. Copy would almost certainly work on any
> production class reader.
Your collossal lack of understanding of magnetics just keeps getting more
and more obvious!
> > Even IF you stole a reader AND a writer, they would do you no good!
> > The readers would be destroyed by any attempts to take them apart
> > and the writers won't work without the FBI computers to run them
> > remotely!
> Fine. Then tap into the FBI data lines, and record the information exchange.
> Duplicate for stolen reader to enable.
Ah, now you are talking, almost!
Lets say you could tap into the FBI lines to the writer and you could
steal a writer.
At that point, you would have a data stream that you could use to write
that specific ID as many times as you wanted! Of course, you still
did not get past the encryption and you don't have a clue what the
FBI computer is doing or how much of the data was hand entered locally...
But, yes, then you might be able to make many copies of the exact same
ID with all the same face text! That is IF you could also see what
the face-text was for that card!
Happy now?
> Or continue reading and even enough information decode the activation
> scheme.
>
> Going to make every phone line in America untappable?
Don't need to, the FBI has MANY secure lines already!
Fiber-optic data lines are virtually un-tapable, and even if you tap one,
you never really know what data is going where!
> Further I notice how easily you say "destroyed by any attempt to take them
> apart". This is a hoot since this is exactly how IC chip designs are stolen.
SOME IC designs could be stolen this way, but they are for very regular
designs and the effort was EXTREMELY expensive and used some very
extraordinary equipment and the services of many engineers and scientists!
Today, chips are pretty safe from this, they are just too complex and
built of far to many layers.
Can you say ASIC? Do you even know what that means?
> The IC Chip is taken apart including the silicon chip itself. So tell us.
Yes, I KNOW how it is done, I have seen people doing this!
I also know it is a bitch and damn expensive and requires some really
expensive equipment and lots of very expensive people to run it!
> How is this self-destruct going to work? Certainly I've never found anything
> that couldn't be opened without wrecking it to the point that no one could
> figure out how it worked. I'm certain that the military would love to hear
> about such a device that were cheap and easy to mass produce since they have
> BILLIONS of applications for such a "box", and they don't have them.
Yes, they do, there are many such ways including electrical self-destruct
of the silicon itself! This is quite simple, but hardly required!
One could go that far, but that is simply going way over-board!
> > Simplest way to say it is anyone who sees the mark of shame will instantly
> > assume the worst!
>
> Hmmmm. So if I see you in court wearing prision issue, I am immediatly
> assume that you are a deranged mass murder that has systematically raped,
> tortured, and killed young girls?
I am talking about the guy cashing a check at his local supermarket and
being seen as a terrible criminal just because he has the mark on his
license!
> > > anything that can cause a person to be prohibited under the law is the
> > > result of a court case,
> >
> > NO, this is NOT TRUE!
>
> Fine. Proof please?
Read the 1968 law, then the Brady law, then get back to me!
> And our courts are government by the illogical leaps made by ignorant
> people?
I assume that sentance has a meaning in English, but it is not clear what
you are trying to say.
> Don't "redesign" the machine.
I have not!
> Don't "ignore" government's inability to keep most secrets about things that
> are known.
I have not!
> Don't "dismiss" the ability of people to duplicate machinary made by someone
> else.
You don't understand the technologies involved!
> Don't "make empty claims" about self-destructs and unreadable magnetic media
> without telling me WHY and HOW they would be so self-destructive, or
> unreadable.
Ok, hear this! What I am about to say, is NOT A PART OF MY SYSTEM, it is
simply an example for your limited ability to understand!
Imagine the critical chip having a built-in C4 charge inside, imagine
that charge being set off if any attempt is made to take the box
apart. The charge could be very tiny, you would not hear anything
but a little pop sound and the silicon would be shattered beyond
recognition into dust!
Now, I don't think such means are required, but maybe you would be able to
understand that one?
No, this is not a "re-design", just an example of an extreme measure that
could be used!
> IOW take what you've given me and ANSWER THE QUESTION I ASKED BASED ON WHAT
> YOU'VE GIVEN ME TO DATE.
I have!
> If you tend want to admit, "Yea, that would have been a loophole, but I can
> close it by.....",
The only "loophole" would be the IDs themselves, if criminals can fake a
new one by stealing the identity of a non-criminal, then that is a real
problem, and I have NEVER claimed I or anyone has a solution to that!
That beats NICS or any other system!
> and then explain WHY it would no longer be a loophole
> perhaps I would not constantly have to keep asking you why this or that
> wouldn't allow you do circumvent the protections.
Talking to you is like trying to explain space flight or computers or
silicon chips to a 5 year old from Borneo!!
> For example. I've asked you about the readers. You gibly talked about lack
> of an input/ouput port (ignoring that it would HAVE to do so to work)
NO IT WOULD NOT!
All it would require is the manual keyboard for code entry and the slot
to swipe the card and the display!
Oh, and the battery holder!
> and how it would cost too much to build the machine
When did I say it would be expensive?
It would cost to do the design work and to build the quantity of the
systems needed, but that cost would be quickly off-set by the savings
of not having to do the background checks! Those are REALLY expensive!
> (ignoring the dirt cheap
> cost of electronics and our ignorance about what the true cost should be or
> even that the FBI might FUND this portion of the machines cost)
Who cares?
The system has a entry cost, so what? Do you have any idea what it cost to
set up the NICS system? Or the vast costs of the Brady system?
> and brushing
> me off when I asked if when broken if the FBI would claim them
I don't recall that question, but I have no problem with the systems
being destroyed when they fail, but the failure rates for such things
would be quite low, even lower than for tape drives!
If the FBI wants them all back, fine, if the store owners simply go to
the local cops to exchange a broken one for a new one, fine.
Makes no difference to me, what does it matter?
> (and if not
> then what keeps people from constantly trying to take them apart), and
> basically trying to ignore this whole aspect.
As I said, I got no problem with turning them in to the cops when they
fail.
> I you don't want to keep me from asking the same questions, then answer the
> question the first time,
I DO, you just keep failing to read or understand them!
> and don't blow me off (while redesigning the
> machine in response to my questions).
I have NOT "re-designed" the system!
> Until you explain why XXX can't be
> done then you will continue to hear me asking you why it can't.
I have, you are just so ignorant, you refuse to understand!
I tell you that VHS and BETA are NOT similar and CANNOT read each others
media EVEN IF you re-package it!
But you still think they are the same!
You even think digital data stored on a media is exactly the same as
analog data stored on a media, I mean if you can't tell the difference
between the Sun and a flashlight, how am I going to explain ANYTHING to
you?
> > > > How about this, you ever hear of "smart cards"?
> > >
> > > Yep, but that isn't what you are asking for.
> >
> > I was giving that as an alternate example, if done properly those work
> > quite well!
> Well? Well is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that your idea of well
> isn't well enough.
Only because you don't understand those either!
> > Yes, and MANY people were WARNED about serious and stupid mistakes
> > many "smart cards" systems have made!
> So what makes you think the FBI will be just as stupid in their design of a
> "smart card"?
I don't expect them to use "Smart Cards", they might, in fact there is
some discussion about switching over to Smart Cards for IDs, but I figure
that will be a while!
And, as I said, WHY CAN'T YOU READ?
I NEVER claimed the FBI would be designing all state IDs!
I said the existing IDs would be used!
> > Just like Cell phones! These systems were DESIGNED to FAIL from the
> > start!
> Again.
Again, these systems did NOT include ANY security measures at all!
Did you hear it that time?
> > So far, nobody has bothered to use even a fraction of the security
> > steps that are available, they all assume just the simplest ones
> > will do just fine!
> Agreed. Probably because as steps are added the expense becomes higher.
Not really, the front-end design costs are a bit higher, but in quantity,
it is meaningless.
The real expense for the box would be the heads and the ASIC, the rest
would be dirt cheap and would not care how much security was there!
If a real display was desired, then that would be more expensive, but
I don't see the need for any fancy displays!
> So
> how expensive are you planning on making this system to build, operate, and
> maintain?
A small fraction of ther NICS/Brady system!
And UN-LIKE NICS/Brady, my system gets cheaper as time passes, NICS
just keeps getting MORE expensiver each year!
> > And those are the systems that fail to remain secure!
> Yep, even the "high security" of the government. The very government you
> trust to provide us with "high security" readers. Somehow this is an odd
> contrast you present.
The contrast is between systems that were NEVER designed to be secure
and those that are!
> > You ever hear of "Enigma cards"?
> I've heard of the products of Enigma encryption, which is irrelevent to
> copying the data as encypted.
So, the answer is no, you don't have any idea what an Enigma card is.
Try looking it up and explain to me how to break that one, so far the NSA
considers it so secure that they use them for their own systems!
> > NOT if the secure methods are employed!
> Sure, but will they be, and what would it cost.
The cost of added security are ONLY in the DESIGN phase, after that,
the production phase does not care, it does not add any extra costs there!
> Those are among the
> questions you have failed to answer.
I have, you just failed to READ!
> Further I'm still waiting for you to
> tell me how a magnetic pattern is "secure".
Ok, THIS IS NOT A RE-DESIGN, THIS IS JUST TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND!
Try this, look up at the Sun, now suppose a signal of light waves
was being sent right at you from the direct direction of the Sun
but in a wave-length of light that your eyes cannot see, and even
IF you are told there is a message in the light somewhere, how would
you ever find that message? The random noise of light and with the
entire spectrum to search, how would you ever even locate the signal?
Then, if you were told the carrier freq., but the signal was highly
scrambled and encryted, how would you ever read the signal data?
Then even if you were sent the data in the clear, but the data was just
a bunch of numbers, how would you ever make sense of them?
Ok, THIS IS NOT A RE-DESIGN, THIS IS JUST TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND!
Try it like this, tur on your TV set. Remove your cable and attach
an ordinary antenna. Tune to a station that has no local broadcaster
for that station. You will see random noise on the video and audio.
Now if I told you that there are indeed signals in that video, could you
find it?
Ok, THIS IS NOT A RE-DESIGN, THIS IS JUST TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND!
> > And if the track density is WAY different?
> >
> > If MY floppy has 100 times more tracks than your floppy drive?
>
> Recalibrate the drive to have 100 times more steps in it's track
> positioning.
You have been watching to much "StarTrek" with that "Recalibrate" crap!
Do you have any understanding of stepper motors?
Do you even know what a stepper motor is?
Do you have ANY idea how totally different a head that can read
80tpi and one that has 800 or 8000tpi would be?
The head would have to be 100 times smaller!
The entire manner of how the signals go on and come off the media would
have to be totally different!
> > If the track density is a variable based on some number coded on the
> > front of the floppy?
> Read the location at the beginning of the disk and input that value (either
> manually or automatically) into a control setup which regulates track steps.
WOW! You really are ignorant!
The track steps are pre-determined by the construction of the motor!
You would need to know exactly how many tpi the floppy was and build
a motor that could do that!
> > If certain spots on the floppy are to be set to values of magnetic flux
> > that are in-between values that my floppy drive can read and write,
> > but yours cannot detect at all?
>
> Adjust the gain of the read head amplifier.
Do you have a clue what the term "Noise floor" means?
Do you have any understanding of "Impedence match"?
> > Not required, just one that no other reader/writer ever made has used!
> Right, and odds are it will be an adaptation of an existing system. Hint -
> nothing new SPRINGS full blow into existance. It is an incremental change of
> existing systems.
Only the existing technologies, not how they are applied!
The known methods of head design would remain the same, but the arbitrary
applications can be totally new!
> > I NEVER said a word about more than ONE "format"! I said a NEW format!
> >
> > Don't you guys READ?
> Fine, and when that format is broken, you are, well, stuck.
NO!, you just don't get it!
> I mean given your totally secure ideas on the 3.5" floppy idea, it really
> makes me certain you know what you're talking about. NOT!
If you think a 3.5" floppy drive can read a 5.25 floppy media, you are
totally clueless about how things work!
> Just a new standard. <bells and whistles.wav> Big deal. 90 days, no more,
> until criminals duplicate it.
If they have no better understanding of technology than you do, I am not
the least bit worried!
> The one that deposits the low-level format at the same time it copies the
> rest of the data. (Hint - low level format data is just more data, which can
> be copied like any other).
<sigh>
NO! WAY BELOW that! The REAL bits, the REAL magnetic domains, the manner
of recording!
> > The very magnetic heads would be totally NEW!
> >
> > Try to think beyond the box for a change!
>
> Fine, and how long do you think it would take someone to duplicate this NEW
> format, particularly when you consider they can DETECT THE DATA NO MATTER
> WHAT FORMAT IS USED?
The data is NOT detectable as anything but noise unless you KNOW exactly
how the data is structured!
> Let's give you an example. VHS hasn't been invented yet. Only Beta machines
> are on the market. I introduce my secure proprietary format of "VHS". No
> other machine out there can read or write my new format. It is a
> "non-standard format". The machines are tightly controlled. Yet tapes are
> everywhere. How long do you think it would take a technogeek to adapt a
> standard Beta machine to read/write your new format, particularly if given
> some incentive?
For starters, those are not systems designed to be secure, they are
designed to be VERY forgiving for the mass market!
Next, without a specially made set of heads, you could not possibly
begin to read those tapes!
You would first have to tear apart the VHS decks and gain direct access
to the analog signals coming off the heads and then you could maybe
get someone to copy a VHS head IF they had one to use as a model and then
because you KNOW that the output follows the NTSC standard format, you
KNOW exactly what the source signal looked like and what the output is
going to look like...
Basically, it would be very tough, but doable IF you had a company that
could build you the VHS heads!
The Beta heads would be of NO use at all!
> > I know how magnetic media works, if that's what you mean!
>
> Fine, then kindly explain how I can not detect the magnetic fields recorded
> on such media?
Oh, you CAN, I NEVER said you couldn't, what I said is you could not make
any sense of the fields you saw!
Basically, they would look like noise! You could never identify what was
data and what was noise!
And if the particular fields were oriented at an angle that your heads
cannot detect, then you won't even see the signal at all!
> > > The fluctuating magnetic field of the coil produces areas of different
> > > magnetic orientation and strength.
> >
> > Still ok! Get that "different magnetic orientation and strength" bit?
> > Think about that!
> >
> > > Magnetic fields which CAN be detected.
> >
> > Getting shaky now, but yes.
> >
> > > A couple of buffs of iron dust across the surface, and gentle breeze to
> > > remove any excess, and wow, I can "read" the data. I can SEE what I am
> > > trying to copy.
> >
> > NOPE! BOOM, dead! This is pretty much pointless!
> >
> > The "data" is not like a row of light switches!
> >
> > The data is ANALOG in nature and can be not only 1 or 0, but can be
> > at odd angles too!
> I see, so now you are going to attempt in encrypt ANALOG DATA.
NO!
I am going to use the analog properties of magnetic domains as my digital
encryption recording sceme!
> How exactly
> do you control for variations in signal strength from machine to machine,
> point to point on the media? How do you compensate for wear, interference by
> static discharges, influenance of inclusion into weak magnetic fields? How
> exactly are you going to assign fixed and constant numbers to this ANALOG
> data to apply an encryption method to it? Hint - even Enigma can't handle
> analog data.
As I said, I am not encrypting like that!
By the way, there are analog computers and have been for decades!
> So once again, you redesign the machine rather than answer the question
NO! YOU ASSUMED the wrong thing from what I wrote! I DID answer the
question!
> forcing me to ask it to you once again. In this case how is your encryption
> going to be applied consistently to ANALOG data, which by it's very nature
> is not consistent. So please document for us an encryption method which
> accepts and works with ANALOG data.
I NEVER claimed any such thing!
> > You also have the problem of data density and track angle to worry
> > about!
> No problem. The view of the magnetic fields can determine data bit spacing,
> and track angles.
HOW?
If you can't tell the difference between noise and data, how are you
going to determine any of these factors?
> Ah, but then this machine of yours is going to be complex. Heck, and here I
> thought you just told me it would be cheap. So cheap that $20 of memory
Who said anything about $20 of memory?
HUGE amounts of non-volitile memory is not anywhere near that cheap!
that is why these boxes would not make sense as a means to illegally
store transaction data!
> > Same problem for the early use of Smart-Card and Cell phones, they just
> > never bothered to use the security technology that was available, they
> > just went with what was easy!
> You of course expect a different response here.
>
> Further again, they went with what security they did because it was cheap.
> You did say this was going to be a cheap system to build?
They did it that way because they never bothered to think about it and
because they were rushing into a totally new technology with massive
competition and many different makers had to ALL agree on a single
standard!
NONE of those factors would be present, and more important, security
would be the primary issue, if it cannot be proven up-front, it won't
be done at all!
> Only in your own mind. If I'm so much less of an expert than you, why do you
> constantly have to alter the specificants of your "machine" because of the
> issues I raise?
I have NEVER changed the specs, you just keep failing to READ or
understand!
> > <sigh>
> > CURRENTLY there are no writers! They would be designed and built
> > for the project!
>
> Of course, none of the design engineers are going to how the machine they
> designed functions, nor any of the supply clerks know what parts go into it,
> or production workers that know how these parts go together, etc?
They don't need to know anything but how to make their portion, and done
properly, these heads would still be fairly useless without the rest of
the system to run them!
Nobody but the top-level people would have to know anything about how the
entire system works!
That is how many classified projects are done!
> Nope, you fail to understand that each and every person involved in the
> design, assembly, production and so on is eitehr going to know how to build
> one complete, or know part of how to build one. How are you going to stop
> those people from talking to criminals? Shoot them at the end of the
> production run?
NOPE!
I just know that with modern methods, whatever they know will be of no
value!
Standard practice in classified projects!
> > Since you not only have to figure out the complexities of the magnetic
> > media writer/reader, but you would also have to build some custom
> > cutting-edge magnetic heads, then you would have to figure out how
> > to read & write the data and then the particular pattern would also
> > have to match with the textual face data on the ID and...
> Textual face data? Another Addition?
NO! That was in right from the start!
The face data, name, numbers, age, ... some would be hand entered on the
keypad.
> What difference would the textual face
> data make when as you say it has an LED for Yes, and one for No.
Simple, if the face data typed in by hand did not agree with the encrypted
data on th mag-stripe, that would be a failure!
I suppose if you WANTED a real display you could do more, but I don't
see the use in more than that.
> Once again
> this idiot manages to force you to add more complexity to your system in an
NO, YOU are the IDIOT who can't READ, this was ALWAYS a part of the
system!
> However, even textual data is no problem, since entire IDs can already be
> produced.
As I said, I don't even begin to deal with the problem of fake IDs if they
are good enough to get past standard examinations!
This is a problem with identity theft and the current IDs are very good,
but if someone steals your identity, then NICS/Brady or my system cannot
do a thing about that!
> > That is quite a lot of work to do!
>
> Yep, how much did you say these machines were going to cost?
Under $100 without fancy display, maybe $200 with.
A lot more if they try to cram lots of non-volitile memory into it!
> > You might as well be trying to print MONEY!
>
> ROTFLMAO. As if people weren't already printing bogus MONEY!!!
YES, but can those bills get past the reader machines?
Not from what I've heard!
> > But this money would need
> > to not only fool the eye, but fool the machines too!
> The machines would be a bit harder, but when fooled they are completely
> fooled, and never have doubts.
So, you know of someone who makes $20 fakes that can pass both visual
inspection AND the readers?
Better tell the Secret Service! They are going to be pissed!
> Nor do they make particularly great
> witnesses. Heck, I understand machines are accepting photocopied Bills, and
Some of the WAY EARLY visual-only machines, yes, but those are history!
> so have people. I suppose you could get both a person and a machine to
> accept one at the same time. heck and this is with a photocopy.........
>
> Get the idea that even our money isn't as secure as you think it is?
I am getting to think you are very clueless!
I really think you need to go READ A BOOK about our money TODAY, not 50
years ago, TODAY!
> > > Simple, build compatable reader/writers.
> >
> > HOW?
> > Where would you get the specs and what electronics company would make them
> > for you?
> Well the parts I could buy from any supplier. The specs I could obtain from
> the card itself, and I would build it myself.
Still don't get it!
The parts are not off the shelf, you can't go buy them anywhere!
The card won't do you any good either!
> > The in-store units would have NO connections to the outside at all
> > except for the "OK" or "REJECT" display, which could just be a pair
> > of lights!
> So much for your " textual face data", since the person with the reader
> couldn't check it anyway. IOW a simple copy of an existing code.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO! The system compares what you enter with the keyboard
with the data encrypted on the card!
Why can't you read?
> Fine. I hook a recorder to the phone line, play back the exchange from the
> FBI computer, and Wow, my writer is on-line.
As I said before, you might be able to tap one of their fiber-optic secure
links to police headquarters, MAYBE, but all that would buy you is ONE
set of instructions to make many copies of that card!
And even that ASSUMES that the important data was not locally typed-in
by hand and thus you have no clue what to type in yourself!
If the writer combined hand-entered data with transmitted data, you would
need to see what was entered by hand the same time as the other data you
recorded AND you would need to steal a real writer! You could not possibly
build one!
> > This would keep dis-honest cops from selling a "correction" to a criminal!
>
> Really? And how would the FBI know that this wasn't simply a correction of
> someone arrested by not convicted?
Because you would have to supply the FBI with the proper reasons to accept
the change. It would be rathe simple to secure that, I am not the least
bit worried about that one!
> > Such "corrections" back to an "OK" would be fairly rare, most of the time,
> > the writers would be putting a "reject" on the ID!
>
> Not if the code were entered simply for being arrested, since most of the
> time the charge is NOT going to be for a offense that prohibits ownership.
> Or are you going to suddenly change your mind on this too?
No, this would be more common later on, right at the start up the system
would mostly be used for updating old IDs.
Once the "OK" becomes more common, the use would also be way down too!
Again, the steps could be worked out to secure this in many ways to
prevent corrupt cops from mis-using it
On the other-hand, it would be far simpler to get a DMV employee to
help you steal an identity!
That cannot be stopped by any of the proposed ideas!
> > HOW?
> > Magnetic heads are no longer things you can wind by hand anymore!
> > These are high-tech silicon chip technologies we are talking about here!
> > There are not even any actual "coils" of wire any more, they are now
> > made of etched silicon on a ceramic substrate.
> Gee, we start off with the magnetic strip on the back of your existing
> driver's license, and suddenly we are in the 24th century of
> technology........
You really think magnetic heads are all still wound wires?
Boy, are you WAY behind!
No wonder you don't get any of this!
Hey, you know they got this cool new thing, called COLOR TV!
Check it out!
> > Just what high-tech silicon makers are you going to get to make you
> > these heads?
>
> Foreign.
Be my guest, try it!
> > Lets say you convince China to help out and you manage to steal
> > some readers and writers and their scientists use scanning
> > electron microscopes to reverse engineer the heads and the silicon
> > and eventually manage to create a writer for you at HUGE expense
> > which you can use to write an exact copy of data off an "OK"
> > ID.
>
> Actually, chips can be reverse enginneered for only a fraction of what they
> cost to design.
That was many years ago, today most ASICs (do you even know what that
means? Look it up, you can probably find the reference on the net)
are way beyond such efforts!
> So tell me, how much are you going to spend building this
> thing in the cost place?
"thing in the cost place"?
You don't seem able to write either!
As for budget, I would guess it could be done for 1-2 million or less
in design costs. That is a tiny fraction of what the FBI spent building
NICS and that system gets more expensive every day!
Mine would get cheaper!
> > Now, if that data is also keyed to the face text, you would also need
> > to have the encryption method broken, something our NSA has a hard enough
> > time doing!
> Which is irrelevent since the reader has only two lights, Yes or No. Who
> cares if the face text matches since the operator can't determine that
> anyway?
The MACHINE would read what you hand-typed in and compare that to what
the mag-stripe says!
Did you READ it that time?
> > Basically, you would do much better to produce totally fake IDs
> > of current state IDs. That would be simpler and far cheaper!
>
> Ok, so let's say I do so. Your system is still worthless...
The point o fmy system is to get rid of NICS/Brady!
NO system can beat a stupid lack of ID security!
If criminals can trick the DMV to give them an ID from a law-abiding
citizen, then nothing is safe!
I NEVER claimed other wise!
NICS/Brady can't handle that either!
> > > If you can read the data,
> >
> > How would you be able to see what the data was, unless you were able
> > to take apart the readers to get to the data coming off the heads?
>
> Directly off the cards themselves.
As I said, you would have no way to read the data without a head designed
for that data!
The data recording means and the heads are a set! You cannot see the
data without a head designed to read it! And even if you have the head,
you also need the other electronics to make sense of what the head sees!
> > > then you know the EXACT format in which that data
> > > is placed on the card.
> >
> > Even assuming you could see a data stream off the reader, so what?
> > You still have no idea how the data is coming off the card!
> Simple look at the location and movement capacity (if any) of the heads.
The heads don't move!
> Even if the reader is "broken" I can still determine this.
NO you can't! If the electronis that run the heads is fried, you cannot
determine what the data is!
> > > Given that information you know EXACTLY how that data
> > > would need to be written. Heck you would then even have a test method to
> see
> > > if it was done properly.
> >
> > You are still thinking inside the box!
>
> And you still can't deal with my questions.
I have answered ALL your questions, you are just so ignorant you cannot
understand the answers!
> > It can be, IF you know exactly how the system works and you have a
> > complete set of hardware and software to run it! Since the encryption
> > system and writer runs ONLY by remote from FBI systems, you cannot
> > find out!
>
> The FBI is going to get it from where? Commerical contractor? The people
> that design this are all, of course, going to work with their eyes closed?
They don't have to, classified projects are run on a need to know basis
and nobody knows anything about how it all goes together or how any part
works except the part they worked on!
Unless you can bribe ALL of them, you have no hope!
> > But what good is it if you cannot get access to the DATA!
>
> If I have the reader, I can duplicate the read heads, design, location and
> movements. From that I can obtain the data.
Not if the electronics have been destroyed by dis-assembly!
Besides, the reader alone does NOT tell you about the writer!
> > All you can see is the "OK" or "REJECT", the card reader does NOT allow
> > for any access to the data stream! And the box cannot be taken apart
> > without destruction!
> So destroy it. I don't care if it works after I open it, is the hardware
> going to suddenly evaporate?
It can, but that is not required to be secure!
> Then I can examine the guts and use that to
> help me figure out what I need to know.
Tell you what, try this, take a large sheet of glass, take it out to some
concrete area, toss it up in the air and run! It will smash into millions
of bits. Now, try to sweep up all these bits and get then all put
back together again so that you can once again see through the glass
and smooth your hand over it.
Now imagine the whole thing must be done to a bit of silicon the size
of your thumb nail!
> Yep, and it does not matter. The only manner to insure it's "destruction" is
> if it blows itself up, burns itself up, or vaporizes.
All of which could be easily done, but are not required!
> Which are you planning on,
NONE, they are not required! But any of them could be done!
> > about and you TOTALLY FAILED to EVEN UNDERSTAND THAT FACT!
>
> Right, magnetic media, radiation = JUNK
>
> I don't understand that you can't combine radiation and magnetic media and
> expect to get anything but junk off of your media.
NO NIT-WIT!
I said the whole radiation example was to try to help you understand, but
I realize now that it is impossible to make you understand!
Radiation was NEVER a part of my system!
> > > How exactly are you going to place random radation on this card?
> > >
> > Are you really this DUMB? Or are you just jerkin around to be annoying?
>
> Nope, I am DIRECTLY responding to statements of yours about how to make this
> card work. If your example is junk, then how can the product by any thing
> else?
The whole mention of radiation was simply a means to try to get you to
begin to understand, it has NOTHING to do with the system!
> > > 5: Random radiation patter now required.
> >
> > This was a HYPOTHETICAL TWIT!
> Oh, so now you don't mean it. Ok then go back to my previous post and ANSWER
> THE QUESTION
Again, the entire radiation bit was for your benefit to try to provide
you with a means to understand!
If you were able to READ ENGLISH yu would have seen this!
I DID answer your questions!
> > > > When they scan the card, they first enter some of the text from the
> > > > front of the card, that tells the reader which spot is the one that
> > > > matters!
> >
> > > Oh, now a NEW condition.
> >
> > NOT NEW AT ALL, THIS WAS ALWAYS A PART OF IT!
>
> Really, care to point out your post in which this was presented prior to
> that one?
TRY READING for a change!
> > IT ONLY SEEMS COMPLEX TO YOU BECAUSE YOU CAN'T READ!
> >
> > I added NOTHING new to the system in this post or the prior one!
>
> Really? And your self erasing radiation card was mentioned exactly where
> before?
The mention of radiation was NOT a part of the system, it was simply a
means to try to get through your thick skull!
> Your recording of ANALOG data was recorded exactly where before?
I NEVER said the data was to be analog!
> Your use of silicon "smart cards" were mentioned in which prior post?
I NEVER said I would use "Smart Cards"!
> Your lack of input/output options was discuss in which news post?
The only I/O options are how much keyboard or display was desired,
it makes little difference to the function.
All you need is a simple number-pad for code entry and a red/greed LED
for output and the swipe track.
More than that could be used, but it is not required.
> Your discussion about how to prevent illegal recording of transactions by
> the machine was discussed in depth on what date prior to my messages?
The only way the Government could do this would be if the boxes were given
a pretty huge amount of non-volitile memory and it had an IR port
somewhere, or maybe an I2E port, perhaps on the battery connections.
They would also have to be able to retrieve this data when the box filled
up, and I think people would quickly catch on to this since they would
ALL be "failing".
Electronics is not that failure prone that 100% of all boxes would fail
and need to be returned.
> Fine, then tell you what. Let's stop having to drag the design out of you
> one piece at a time. Why don't you simply list for me, the complete and full
> design criteria of the reader, writer, and card. Explain in depth exactly
> why any/all of my objections to date are irrelevent. Then cost the deisgn
> and production of each component of it.
Ok, as soon as you can tell me what I have said so far without making shit
up that I never wrote!
> All you have to do is answer my objections in full,
I have, you just keep failing to understand!
> and stop forcing me to drag it out of you one detail at a time.
I told you all of it, you just keep failing to understand!
> Oh, PS please current technology no "hypothetical" nonsense.
Those were simply other technologies I was NOT going to use, that I hoped
would help you comprehend, but you still can't READ!
MT
The-Trainers
On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
>
> The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > > > The DANGER is needing to have a gov computer to "allow" a gun sale
> > > > to go ahead. That is gun-owner registration and gun-sales registration
> > > > and that is what Brady/NICS does now.
> > > >
> > > > The readers would ONLY function with a daily activation code AND
> > > > by hand entering text data off the face of the ID. Thus stealing
> > > > a reader would do no good either!
> >
> > > Ok, but what is to keep the FBI from storing transaction data inside the
> > > readers, since after all no one but the FBI knows what is inside their
> > > machine?
> >
> > Look, I already SAID these things do NOT connect to a phone-line
> > and they cannot be dis-assembled without destroying them!
> So what does a phone line or being able to disassemble anything have to do
> with being able to supply an input/output port. Heck I bet you that you are
> already planning one. It IS going to have an electric cord.
Or just battery connections.
> You do know that
> you can use those same wires as input/output lines even while power is
> applied.
Yes, they could have an I2E or IR port, but again, they would need to get
ahold of ALL boxes, and that would be instantly suspicious, people would
figure out what they were doing!
> So once again. Please try to answer the question.
So, once again, I HAVE, why don't you try READING for once!
> > > I'm fairly certain that they will have some kind of maintenance
> schedule,
> > > even assuming you don't have the machine "break" when the memory is
> almost
> > > full.
> >
> > NO "maintenance schedule", because they need NO "maintenance"!
> Gee, and utterly perfect device that is never going to go bad.
How often do ordinary electronics items fail these days?
Would it seem odd when 100% of them "fail", it sure would be a pretty
obvious flag to me that something fishy was going on!
> > If they "break", so what? The only way to make such a system
> > criminal-proof is if it had NO possible connection to the world once
> > they were sealed up, no external data port at all!
> No electric line then? So how is it going to be powered? Batteries?
Fine, but as I said, they could hide an IR or I2E port, that would be
possible.
They would just have to get ahold of all the systems and that is where
people would figure it out!
> Could the FBI enclose a small transmitter that would respond to an encrypted
> (since you love that so much) radio transmission to start a data dump.
ONLY at VERY close range!
> I mean if you are going to have security you aren't going to want these old
> machines just dumped in the trash unless some enterprising individual can
> get enough to decide how the operate despite their "destruction when
> opened".
Right, if they break, you exchange them for new ones!
> Which brings up the point. Exactly how are you going to insure that opening
> the device will result in it's destruction? In full?
You only need to destroy a small portion, just a bit of the heads and
a bit of the main chip, the rest is pointless to bother with!
This could be done simply with a stored charge in a cap, that is all the
energy required to turn these parts to dust!
But, again, I really don't think it need go this far.
> > All it would have is the keyboard for typing in the daily activation
> > code and info off the face of the ID to be checked against the
> > data on the magstrip (another reason copying data from another license
> > could not work) and the display showing the rejection or OK!
> Ah, so there is going to be a data port. Input on the keyboard, output on
> the display, heck you could do it at 300 buad on an LED alone. So tell me
> how are you going to prevent the FBI from chosing to add memory to record
> and later document those records?
Two ways, one the memory would cost more than any other part of the box,
and two, the 100% "failure" rate would be instantly suspicious
and people would catch-on to what they were doing!
> > And think about how much data those boxes would have to hold to be
> > of any use! The added non-volatile memory would become the biggest
> > part of the cost!
> Except we don't know what the cost will be, you haven't told us what this
> vaporware is going to cost.
YES I HAVE!
Under $100!
> Further look at cost of EPROM
EPROM!!!!!
Holy CRAP Batman, wake up and smell the 1990s!
> and tell me that memory is going to be a problem.
> Heck 16 Megs of Flash memory can be had for under $20.
Ah, so you have heard of some of the new technologies!
Again, if the machines were 100% failing, people would catch on!
> > You can bet that the first time people began to see them "fail", the
> > "fake-failures" would be figured out!
>
> Really? How exactly are you going to tell this?
The same way YOU did, they would get suspicious that 100% of all boxes
were failing and in need of repair.
People would quite quickly connect how long it took to "fail" with the
amount of business done and they would KNOW what was going on!
MT
Frank
Scout wrote:
>
> Frank <f...@therange.com> wrote in message
> news:3783B8AB...@therange.com...
> > This is your problem. You are a self-centered stupid egotistical
> motherf@$@$@$!
> > I'm not objecting, you A$$HOLE, I'm telling you problems that seem
> reasonable to
> > me. You asked for for comments. I'm giving them to you. You respond
> with
> > extreme rudeness. Why did you even put the word "comments?" on the
> original
> > post. Were you just looking for reason to vent Anonymously like the
> craven coward
> > you are!! You don't even have the balls to put your name on the posting.
>
> Come on Frank, don't beat around the bush, tell us what you REALLY think.
>
> :-)
Frank
Frank
"train"? To do what? How many "trainers" are you?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Frank
The-Trainers wrote:
>
> On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Robb wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:27:20 -0400, "Scout" <sc...@monumental.com>
> > wrote:
> > --Snip--
> > >
> > >So answer my question. How exactly are you going to make a system that
> > >prevents someone from simply copying the magnetic arrangement from one card
> > >to another?
> > >
> > --Snip--
> >
> > I see a couple of problems.
> >
> > <1> Won't stop "Straw Man" purchases. Of course I have no idea what
> > WILL stop these. Any ideas???
>
> My system was ONLY intended to get rid of Brady/NICS!
>
> > <2> Won't stop a criminal from using a fake ID with a copied data
> > stream on the back. Heck, You could put a random stream of encrypted
> > data on the back of a card and still design a reader/writer to just
> > blindly copy the data.
>
> If you understood the technologies you were talking about, you would
> know this is not that easy or even possible!
>
> > <3> While I trust the encrytion algorithms out right now, I don't
> > think that there's a way to make a bit of data "unreadable" by
> > anything except your theoretical "readers." If you're distributing
> > these things to every gun dealer in the world, one would be copied
> > within days. And then the copying of the data streams would begin.
> >
> > <R>obb
>
> NOPE!
>
> You guys are still stuck thinking inside the box!
>
> The ONLY reason that card readers today are all compatible, is that
> they were DESIGNED to be compatible!
>
> There is NO reason that they need to be at all!
>
> You guys are aware of the FACT that Beta video decks and VHS video
> decks used EXACTLY the same video tape, just inside different
> containers? You do know this right?
>
> What you seem to think is that you could break open a Beta case
> and stick the tape inside a VHS player and you would be able to
> then play the tape in a VHS system!
>
> This is NOT TRUE! The VHS system would have NO idea what to make
> of the data on the Beta tape!
>
> There is an infinite number of ways to place information onto magnetic
> media, and no reason at all to use any method that has been used before!
>
> Untill NOW, no system except the most secure card-access facilities
> had a good need for highly secured data on these mag strips, so
> the card readers have all been made compatible. In fact, all forms
> of magnetic storage on tape have been designed to be compatible
> and designed for best results for reliability, NOT for security!
>
> Such secure magnetic data systems do exist, but they are rare because
> mostly the tapes are what gets secured and the data is encrypted!
>
> What I am talking about has been done before, and it is a deliberately
> designed system to prevent tampering and copying! And that is very
> workable with current technology! Just not with current card-readers!
>
> Try thinking outside the box!
>
> MT
Frank
While stationed in FRG, a soldier who worked for was ETS'd and stayed there. Of
course, after his ETS date, he would not be allowed to shop in the PX or enjoy any
of the privileges other real soldiers. Well, he just happened to be dating a slut
in the personnel section (she was a slut due to the fact that was married to some
poor bastard stationed stateside and was fV@<[#& this guy). As supporting him was
getting expensive, she lowered his total cost of ownership (TCO) by issuing him a
dependent's ID card.
The moral of the story is: Anyone who creates/encodes the cards you came up with
can make one for any a$$hole he/she wants to, thereby circumventing every
encryption scheme you can come up with by simply using the device he/she lawfully
uses every day.
Puleeeease Train me!!!
Frank
The-Trainers wrote:
>
> On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Jorge Landivar wrote:
>
> > The-Trainers wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > > > > On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Brian Morgan wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > The-Trainers wrote:
> > > > > > > Have there been ANY $20 bills that can fool magnetic readers?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Not that I have EVER heard of!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They don't have to fool magnetic readers, they have to fool people. And
> > > > the do
> > > > > > frequently. or !!
> > > > >
> > > > > Fine, but as I said, since these cards are ONLY read by these new special
> > > > > mag readers and those cannot be fooled, it makes no difference!
> > > >
> > > > And you don't think anyone else is smart enough to design a reader/writer to
> > > > the same specifications?
> > >
> > > And how exactly would the get the specs?
> >
> > Steal them, dig them out of the trash, pay off some low level bureaucrat
>
> So what, the specs, even if you could get them, and even if you had a
> silicon chip maker with expertise in magnetic heads to make them for you,
> it would still do you no good without knowing how the data is detected
> and written, and worse, how you would get that data to match up with
> the face text data!
>
cguinn
wrote:
>> Copy test on face of card and use a different photograph.
>
>If criminals are able to totally fake a modern state ID, then we have much
>bigger problems than guns!
Well, I guess we do have bigger problems, because they CAN fake a
modern state ID! It's getting EASIER, not HARDER! In Missouri, they
use a ID card printer system that can be bought for about $4000. The
ONLY thing that would be hard to duplicate is the clear "Overlay" that
had the state logo in it! That can be stolen! Simply break into the
local license office and take some of their supply, and you're all
set!
The-Trainers
On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Frank wrote:
By the way, NO system will eliminate the problem of identity theft!
If a criminal can trick the state DMV into issuing them an ID in the
name of some other person, then nothing can prevent those criminals
from doing anything they like, even buying guns.
hmmmmmm, maybe if there was some way to notify the REAL person that
someone used their ID to buy a gun???? This would be tricky, it would
also be full of holes. But worth some thought.
Identity theft is becoming a huge problem, usually, they just ruin your
credit, but...
> The-Trainers wrote:
> > Next, the WRITERS would be ONLY in the most secure places! Remember, ONLY
> > criminals or arrestees would ever have their IDs written onto by a writer.
> > This could be easily done even if only 1 writer was available per county
> > to start with.
> But the system, for economic and security reasons, would have to use the same
> writer that makes the entire dr. lic. for everyone.
NOPE!
The readers/writers would be entirly NEW designed specifically
for this purpose and NOT available to anyone else.
> Otherwise, the felon could
> see that the issuer was using a different writer, alerting he/she that
> they were marked as the devil.
Where the heck did you get this wierd idea?
Do you imagine that felons don't already KNOW they are felons?
Do you imagine they have not already been told they are not allowed guns?
If someone is declared by the courts to be mentally-ill, do you
think they don't TELL the person this?
If someone gets a domestic violence or other restraining order against
another person, don't you think that person KNOWS about the order?
Don't you think it already says on the order they cannot buy a gun now?
All prohibited persons already KNOW they are prohibited!
There is NO need to "hide" the fact you are altering their IDs, they
already KNOW this.
Why would anyone want to hide this fact from the prohibited person?
> A different writer, or card creator, would cause the issuer
> to make extra steps to complete the job and it would require the extra cost of
> another writer everywhere, as I stated before.
The "issuer" of an ID would NOT NEED to deal with it at all!
The prohibited persons would be the ONLY ones effected!
The "issuer" of an ID would simply send the ID to the secure site for
the writing. The DMV COULD have a writer available, or not, it makes
little difference.
Mostly this would only be the case for new IDs for prohibited people.
When states issue IDs NOW, they do a criminal check already!
> The government employees wouldn't be scanning the cards. They
> would be marking the cards "no Sale". They would be inputting the data into a
> database, exactly like the one the NICS is using.
In-putting WHAT data?
All they would do is press the key that says "NO", the system would do the
rest!
This would also ONLY be done at DMV or police stations, maybe a few other
places.
> How else would their information stay current?
The system would be run from the FBI computer and the FBI computer would
KNOW from the reader/writer all the data required to make an "OK"
into a "NOT OK" or back again.
> This database would be accessed every time a drivers license was issued.
Just exactly as it is TODAY! NO CHANGE in that!
Heck, today, they won't even issue you an ID if you have un-paid parking
tickets!
> Every time a arrest is made for domestic violence or suspicion
> of a felony or a restraining order was issued, the information on that person
> would have to be updated.
Just exactly as it is TODAY! NO CHANGE there!
> Since people can move freely from state to state it
> would have to update a national database,
For those that are allowed to move freely, yes, and ALL of the prohibited
persons would be listed in the FBI computer! Just exactly as they are
today!
> so when our suspect goes to get a new
> license in another state, the dbase can be checked.
Correct, the FBI database that they ALREADY check before handing out IDs!
> Then, if the charges are
> dropped, the information must be purged from the system. How many government
> employees are going to be doing that chore?
The EXACT same as today! This info must be updated as things are already!
If a person has a warrant out for his arrest and that is later dropped,
this fact already has to be removed from the system, this system
does NOT require any MORE work, the SAME data bases and the same
work, NOTHING MORE! NOTHING NEW!
> > > Then you would have to get the police and the courts to actually use it.
> >
> > If the law to set up the system passes, they would have no choice!
> I suppose they have no choice but to enforce the laws on the books now?
The laws on themselves like this would be a part of the automatic
systems in the computers, there would be NO means to ignore the law.
> Let's see...400,000 felons, and other restricted persons, committing
> felonies by attempting to buy a gun - arrests = 7. 6000 kids bring guns
> to school - arrests =13. I got stopped for 86 in a 70 mph zone and got
> a warning ticket (thank you officer) that was selective law
> enforcement. Shirley, I mean surely, you can think of more.
Of course, and EVERY one of those relates to things NOT done by a "system"
or by "computer software", but rather choices made with the discretion
of the LEOs involved!
There is no way to send computers out to arrest all speeders!
The closest thing was the automatic cameras they used to take pictures
of speeders and red-light runners. Of course, that had flaws of
photographic interpretation by humans to creat holes in enforcement!
Look at it this way, cops cannot begin to write a ticket and then change
their minds and just tear it up. All tickets are numbered in their books,
and they MUST explain ANY ticket that they begin. They cannot start
to write a ticket, then get a bribe from the driver and just tear it up!
The system is designed to prevent this.
> > > Admittedly, most stores have a credit card swiper in place, but your system
> > > would have to be compatible with it to save some costs.
> >
> > You have NOT been READING!
> >
> > The current card-readers are of no use in this system!
> I have been reading.
Not as far as I can see by what you keep writing!
> Unless you are omitting some detail that you
> think is common knowledge (a term I despise). Your magnetic strip on a
> dr. lic. would be encoded with a "No Sale" marker for gun purchases.
So far so good.
> If there is no reader, and you say it would eliminate the need for the
> NICS dbase, how does one find out that they are dealing with a
> restricted person? Telepathy?
NO, as I have said MANY TIMES a NEW type of reader with VERY different
properties would be designed that used far different heads for reading
data that current readers cannot see at all!
Imagine it this way. Think of the mag-stripe as if it were a strech of
black-top street. Now imagine the current card readers and thus IDs
have data on them like the huge writing on streets. Think about how
those huge words and numbers and lines painted on the streets look
to you if you are driving towards them. Now think how those words
look from an airplane. The view you have of those huge words from
an airplane is sort of like the view of the data on current IDs when
you look at it, but the street level view is how a current card reader
looks at it.
Now imagine looking at these huge words if you got out of your car and
walked over to them, got down on your hands & knees and looked more
closely. Maybe you would find MUCH to your surprise that someone else
had taken a magic marker and written a whole bunch of words in-between
the giant letters. Worse still, those small letters could ONLY be seen
when you tilted your head just right and the light shined on those
letters at just the right angle, other-wise you could not see them at all
because they were written with dark instead of white!
Now, apply that to the mag-stripe. Any current reader could ONLY see the
BIG words, and could NEVER see the little words! If you were to have
a head designed to read the small words at the proper angle, then the
small words would be readable!
Now assume that these reader heads also depend on some pretty fancy
but currently available technology to even function to read the small
words.
Even IF you stole a reader from a store, it would do you no good,
because the reader would require an activation code for that day or it
would not work. This code would be typed-in by the store owner each
new day to activate the readers.
Also, the readers would be made to NOT be able to be taken apart without
destroying it. There are many good ways to do this. For the sake of
discussion, assume the reader heads and the important chip have a
self-destruct that activates if the box is tampered with. With those parts
destroyed, even the best engineers in the world could not figure out the
readers.
Also assume the small data is heavily encrypted and scattered
around in random ways that are keyed to the text written on the front
of the ID. The small words would all be gibberish unless you knew
excactly how to de-code them.
Even IF you had the massive resources needed to made a copy system for
these cards, you would also have to use exactly the SAME face text
like name/age/ID#/height/weight...
> BTW, will it notify the police that an unlawful transaction is occurring?
Lets examine how it works today!
First, the criminal Mr. Smith, who KNOWS he is a criminal, goes into a
store. He says "I wanna buy this gun." The store owner asks for his ID.
The ID is examined to check that it is still a current (non-expired)
ID and it is an ID from the same state the store is in and that the
photo matches and the discription matches and that the ID does not look
tampered with.
The the store owner says "Ok, fill out this form 4473." Mr. Smith fills
out the form. On the form it asks if the buyer has ever been convicted
of a felony. Mr. Smith KNOWS he has, but he also KNOWS that if he
writes a "YES" for that question, the seller will instantly refuse to
sell. So, Smith lies (you know, being a criminal and all) and writes
"NO" to that question. Smith must SIGN and date the form. This then
has become a double felony. First, attempted gun possession by a felon
is a felony, then purjury by lying on the form is another felony.
The seller takes the form and the ID and goes to his phone and calls the
FBI NICS number. He tells the FBI the name and ID info of the buyer. The
FBI comes back and says "NO, you cannot sell a gun to that person!" The
FBI never gives the reason. The seller has no idea why the buyer is
prohibited, mostly these happen by mistake.
The seller goes to Smith and says "Here is your ID. Sorry, the FBI said
"NO", here is the number you can call to ask them why and get it fixed.
Come back later if they fix it for you." The seller puts the signed form
in his files. The FBI now KNOWS that a felon has done a new felony and
they KNOW the PROOF of this is in the files of the gun seller.
The FBI COULD call the local cops to go get this evidense of a felony
and then these cops could track down and arrest Smith. The DA COULD
prosecute and convict him and send him to jail for 5 years, or even
longer if he was on parol or probation at the time.
What actually happens is the FBI does not make that call, and the cops
never go to get the evidense. And there is no arrest or prosecution.
My system would be slightly different. Any time a gun dealer got a reject
off the box, they would be required to file the form and forward that
form to the BATF or the local cops for them to deal with. (See, the box
cannot "notify" anyone but the operator of the box, because the box
has no outside connections)
That way, the FBI, BATF, local cops would ONLY have to spend their time
investigating the REJECTS instead of doing all these stupid and repeated
background checks on the rest of us law-abiding citizens!
> > > Your system, along with Brady & NICS are all violations of the 4th amendment,
> > > i.e., unreasonable search and seizure.
> >
> > I know Brady & NICS are Un-Constitutional, but they stil exist, mine
> > would be a huge step back away from those systems.
> Your system would require the NICS dbase to be timely and affective,
> more so then it is now.
NOT at all! The ILLEGAL NICS database would be irrelevant!
The ONLY thing in the database would be the SAME info that has long been
public record and that is criminal histories and other such public info
on prohibited persons. This is no violation.
There could also be other info like from mental institutions, but not
details. It could work like this. A person is arrested for insane behavior
and taken to a hospital for "observation". BEFORE they are released, it is
determined if they are a threat. If they are, their ID would be given to
the cops for "update" to being a prohibited person.
The local cops would KNOW why in their files, but the FBI would ONLY know
that person was prohibited and that the cause was in the local files of
the cops in that area.
If the person went to buy a gun, they would be rejected. They could then
call the FBI and ask why? The FBI would say the cops of this Dept. said
they had good cause to make you prohibited. Call this number or go to this
address to find out more details. They would go to the cops who would
explain and offer an appeals process to get this changed.
Does that help?
> > Mine would put an end to registration, and would allow for private party
> > sales to be fully legal again and put an end to waiting periods!
> >
> > Now what exactly are you objecting to?
> I'm telling you problems that seem reasonable to me.
MOST of which would have been clear if you had read what I wrote more
carefully.
> You asked for for comments. I'm giving them to you.
MOST of which are from failing to read what I wrote.
> You respond with extreme rudeness.
It is very frustrating to have to keep explaining the same things over and
over and over again!
It is even MORE frustrating when YOU keep putting words in my mouth that I
NEVER wrote!
> Why did you even put the word "comments?" on the original post.
I was hoping people would READ what I wrote and come up with ideas or
flaws in the plan, so far, I have only gotten back people telling me
they don't believe in modern technology or they simply failed to
read much of what I wrote (like you) or they just say they are not
interested in anything but a total elimination of all gun laws!
Personally, I would be happy with eliminating them, but we got to be
realistic! One step at a time.
> Were you just looking for reason to vent Anonymously like the craven
Where am I "Anonymously"? This is my email account, I am not passing
through some blind deja or yahoo or hotmail account.
> coward you are!!
Where am I a coward? Where did I run from anything? Where did I hide?
> You don't even have the balls to put your name on the posting.
HUH? That is my name! If you insist on my first name, it is Mike!
Does that make you feel better? Frank, if that IS your real name!
Last name please!
> > This would NOT be a "background check"! This would put an END to
> > "background checks"!
>
> A background check would have to be run initially. Otherwise how are
> you going clear or "no sale" the person in the first place.
ALL felons are already KNOWN to the FBI and the rest of the police!
These felons are the ONLY ones that would be required to bring their
IDs in to be "updated".
NONE of the non-felons would need to do a damn thing!
It could simply be announced that all felons (and they KNOW who they are)
are now required to go to a police or DMV office to have their IDs
altered. They could give a grace period to comply, they could send
out letters to those who had not met the grace period. Then they
could simply issue warrants in the computer to flag those who had
not yet complied even after the letter. Since most felons continue
to come into contact with cops for the rest of their lives, they
would be found and the computer would state their IDs needed to be
updated.
Since non-compliance would be a parol or probation violation and even
for those no longer on parol or probation, there would be a substantial
fine and jail sentance, most would comply anyway, since it really
does not cost them anything to comply. They already KNOW they are
prohibited from possessing guns.
When a certaian level of completion is reached, the system of NICS
would be replaced by these boxes. States with high compliance would
be the first to turn on the new system.
> > Fine, I have often said we COULD just rent out Siberia and send all our
> > felons there! Russia would LOVE the income, and they know how to maintain
> > a large prison population!
> >
> > That IS what you want, right?
>
> Sounds like a plan to me.
What about non-violent felons?
And for the non-criminals? Would you prefer to ship all our mentally-ill
over there too? How about domestic violence restraining orders, ship them
over too?
I mean, if that's what you want.
> > > > This system would give the general public something they can understand
> > > > and see that it is BETTER at the job they WANT done WITHOUT putting
> > > > heavy burdens on the other law-abiding citizens!
> >
> > > This system would open the door for the government to track your every move.
> >
> > HOW?
>
> It is all above. dbases, continual updating, on and on....
Since you failed to understand the system, maybe you should try again and
then tell me your problems with it.
My system does not requires any new databases or new checks, it simply
eliminates the FBI knowing about each gun transaction, it eliminates
the waiting periods, it allows for private sales.
The ONLY "checks" would be the SAME checks done at the time a state ID
is issued, just like it is now! If a criminal moves to another state
and asks to get a state ID, the state runs a check to see if this guy
is a criminal with warrants or is on parol or is a sex offender or
has un-paid parking tickets! If the guy is clear, they go ahead and issue.
This is how it works NOW!
The ONLY change would be for those who turn up to be felons! For those
IDs, the ID is run through a different writer to encode the new style
of data on that ID.
The FBI computer would then know that this felon was just issued a state
ID in that state! This is no different than today in this respect.
> > NICS and Brady do that by the "background checks", my system PREVENTS the
> > government from knowing anything about any gun purchases!
>
> The same people who would make up the "strong encryption" could just as
> well have it report back to NSA, much like Microsoft's registration
> scheme, every time the card is used.
You just don't read do you?
The boxes in the stores would NEVER NEVER NEVER send ANY data to anyone
from the purchase! The gov would have NO CLUE that a sale took place!
Private parties could sell to other private parties by simply going
to a store with the potential buyer and running his ID to check it.
The seller then could sell the gun to him that day legally and do NO
paperwork at all!
The store would NOT be involved except that is where the readers are
located. The stores would have to allow other gun sellers to use
the box to check IDs.
But, as I KEEP TELLING YOU, there is NOT ANY CONNECTION FROM THE READERS
TO ANYONE! The readers just have a "Yes" or "NO" indicator! A bigger
display could also be used, but that is not really needed.
Heck, if you wanted to get fancy, the display could even show the whole
text from the front of the ID and that would have to match with what
the seller sees, but again, this is not required.
> > > Sorta reminds of the religious folks legend of the mark of the beast. Everybody
> > > gets their own individual national identification card. Tell me, will there be an
> > > optional tattoo with a serial number, in case you loose your card?
> >
> > HUH?
> > Who said anything about "national identification card"?
> One more time.
Try to READ, then you won't keep making these mistakes!
> Since it won't work without the NICS-like dbase and it has to be
> updated all the time and the NICS is a NATIONAL DBASE, the card would be a
> DEFACTO-NATIONAL ID CARD.
NO, as I keep saying, the ONLY LEGAL data in the NICS database are the
names&IDs of the PROHIBITED persons!
And the IDs would be state-issued IDs just like today, and ONLY the
felons or other prohibited persons would have a special coded
data on their IDs that would tell the boxes in the stores not to
sell guns to this person. The ID would still be exactly the same
other-wise.
The ILLEGAL list of law-abiding citizens would be eliminated!
The ONLY LEGAL data that the NICS system has and updates is the SAME
EXACT INFO they MUST keep on the FELONS anyway! That is a part of
their job you know, keeping track of criminals.
The ILLEGAL part of NICS is the keeping records on each lawful gun
transaction and buyer. This is the part my system would eliminate!
If you are willing to ship all the felons off to Siberia, what do you
care if the FBI accesses PUBLIC records of these criminals and keep a list
of them?
> > My system simply applies to the CRIMINALS! They will be the ONLY ones
> > effected! The IDs of CRIMINALS will be rejected and all the rest of us
> > will be free to buy/sell guns without the government even knowing about
> > the sales!
> I see you nervously chanting
There is nothing "nervously" about it.
> "it's just the criminals...it's just the
> criminals...it's just the criminals...it's just the criminals..."
Right, they are the ones doing the crimes.
Those are the people YOU want kept in jail for life or shipped off to
Siberia!
> your ultimate plan is torn to shreds.
Exactly what have you "torn" at all?
So far, all you have done is proven you can't read!
> Frank
Frank WHAT, exactly? Coward?
> PS Your plan does have some, however little, merit, as I originally stated.
Fine, so why don't you READ what I actually WROTE and try to understand
instead of going off and making all sorts of weird claims that I NEVER
said?
MT
The-Trainers
On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Frank wrote:
> What I would really like to know is who do The-Trainers train?
>
Uh, no you would not! ;-)
Besides, that is our NAME, what is YOURS?
Mike Trainer
Can you READ that?
MT
The-Trainers
On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Frank wrote:
> What is this "box" that seem to think you have gotten out of?
It is one of those "new-age" management terms,
"thinking outside of the box"
It means thinking more creatively, beyond what you are directly
experianced at and thinking about other applications for what you
know or for things you know about or...
Like when someone figured out how to use old newspapers for home
insulation! That was an example of "thinking outside of the box"!
Does that help?
> And, who do you "train"?
That would be telling! ;-)
> To do what?
See above!
> How many "trainers" are you?
Two, like most married couples!
> Inquiring minds want to know.
I want to know when you are going to READ better than you have so far!
> Frank
Frank.... what? Or are you a coward?
MT
The-Trainers
On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Frank wrote:
> Let me tell you a little story, just so you will move outside the box.
Ok, try to come up with a relevant one.
> While stationed in FRG, a soldier who worked for was ETS'd and stayed there. Of
> course, after his ETS date, he would not be allowed to shop in the PX or enjoy any
> of the privileges other real soldiers. Well, he just happened to be dating a slut
> in the personnel section (she was a slut due to the fact that was married to some
> poor bastard stationed stateside and was fV@<[#& this guy). As supporting him was
> getting expensive, she lowered his total cost of ownership (TCO) by issuing him a
> dependent's ID card.
I assume this is a crime?
I assume these IDs can be issued manually with NO required computer link
with the FBI, or even some sort of authorization from others to issue?
> The moral of the story is: Anyone who creates/encodes the cards you came up with
> can make one for any a$$hole he/she wants to, thereby circumventing every
> encryption scheme you can come up with by simply using the device he/she lawfully
> uses every day.
As I have said MANY MANY times, NO system gets around identity theft of a
real non-criminal person.
However, the routine criminal background checks that are CURRENTLY run
PRIOR to the issue of an ID do prevent IDs from being issued to felons
without the state knowing about this!
> Puleeeease Train me!!!
You are not the type!
> Frank
WHO?
MT
The-Trainers
conversation!
On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> The-Trainers <trai...@best.com> wrote in message
> > On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Scout wrote:
> Another free hint. A substrate is NOT the device, it is the foundation on
> which the device is built. The actual recording head is made up of deposited
> aluminum, silver, or other conductive metal.
Yes, it is a part of the device just as much as the car body is to the
engine and drive-train, without the body to support them, the rest
will do nothing!
> > You ever hear of "Magneto-resistive" recording heads?
> >
> > You ever hear of "micro-air-gap" recording heads?
> >
> > You ever heard of "vertical-field" recording heads?
> >
> > And even the ones that don't use silicon, DO use the SAME methods and
> > the SAME size objects and the SAME sort of expensive machines to make the
> > heads!
> Yep, and without exception the actual active device is NOT the silicon but
> the stuff the silicon holds in place.
Actually, one of those IS made directly from silicon, do you know which?
And HINT, the heads are NOT "active devices", they are passives!
> > They ETCH the "coils" and use vacuum deposition methods to create
> > micro-heads these days!
>
> Yep, and the COIL NOT THE FORM is the active device.
The "coil" is also not active, and it also cannot be made by simply
winding wires, they require very special equipment!
> > They don't use wire coils anymore, except in very low data density
> > applications, like audio recordings, and that is not what I am talking
> > about!
> Of course not. Cheaper and simplier to use deposited coils built up on a
> cheap substrate. But the substrate is not the device.
NO, they need this because they are so SMALL and they need to be extremely
exact down to microscopic detail.
The substrate is also a required part of the device, many of the
substrates are even conductive or provide the electrolytic
or dielectric to allow the heads to function!
The heads cannot be made without them!
> > If criminals are able to totally fake a modern state ID, then we have much
> > bigger problems than guns!
> >
> > I have said this many times before!
> >
> > For example, in todays NICS/Brady system if someone has stolen the
> > identity of an innocent person and gotten a good state ID, then of
> > course the NICS checks or Brady waiting periods will have no effect!
> >
> > I NEVER claimed my system would solve that problem, but neither does
> > NICS!
> You were telling us that it couldn't be duplicated. So which is it?
<sigh>
I said many times that if the state cannot make a proper ID or if the
criminals can trick the DMV into giving them the ID of others, as in
the case of identity theft, then NO system I have ever heard of
can do anything about that!
Even with NICS/Brady or 30 day "waiting" periods, if criminals can get
fresh IDs from the DMV, nothing will stop them from making use of that
ID for criminal purposes.
I NEVER claimed other-wise!
> > What I have said is my system is a great deal BETTER than NICS/Brady
> > from ALL points of view except for the gun-haters who want total
> > registration of owners!
>
> Better? Probably,
WAY better!
My system would eliminate the transaction database, it would eliminate
the waiting periods, it would eliminate the repeated background checks
for law-abiding citizens, it would allow a safe means to allow private
sales.
> but then again you still have to address the central
> database requirements to operate such a system.
Such a database already exists and is checked EACH time a state ID is
issued today! Heck, they won't even issue you an ID if you have un-paid
parking tickets!
> Nor have you yet explained
> by a visible indicator would not be allowable.
I am not a lawyer, go ask the ACLU to explain it to you.
> > I see it just fine, I also NEVER claimed otherwise!
> >
> > I NEVER intended my system to make up for the failure of state ID
> > protection, just that my system is better than NICS/Brady!
>
> Finally, I thought you would never understand. Either that or you did
> understand and I didn't.
I DID understand this from the start!
YOU failed to understand that I SAID this!
I have long been aware of the problem of identity theft, especially
when the criminals trick the DMV into giving them an ID in the name
of some other real person!
> Whatever isn't important now.
It is VERY important to the FACT that YOU KEEP FAILING to READ!
> So two last issues noted above and I think we can wrap this up.
Fine, the data base of criminals exists already, it is public info.
When a state issues an ID today, they do a criminal background check
anyway!
As far as why you can't tattoo a big red FELON mark on the foreheads
of all felons, Since I have explained this MANY times and you keep
failing to read it, and since I am NOT a lawyer, go consult the ACLU
on this.
MT
The-Trainers
On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, cguinn wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:56:37 -0700, The-Trainers <trai...@best.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> Copy test on face of card and use a different photograph.
> >
> >If criminals are able to totally fake a modern state ID, then we have much
> >bigger problems than guns!
>
> Well, I guess we do have bigger problems, because they CAN fake a
> modern state ID! It's getting EASIER, not HARDER! In Missouri, they
> use a ID card printer system that can be bought for about $4000. The
> ONLY thing that would be hard to duplicate is the clear "Overlay" that
> had the state logo in it! That can be stolen! Simply break into the
> local license office and take some of their supply, and you're all
> set!
As I said, I know of no system beyond maikng better IDs and greater
security for these that can help this problem!
And of course, identity theft can even get around NICS or any other
means of keeping criminals from getting guns from lawful dealers!
I never said my idea could do any better than this, just that it is
better than the current NICS/Brady situation for us law-abiding
citizens!
Even tattooing criminals won't work, nor will implants!
And I doubt the courts would even let those ideas get started!
MT
Jorge Landivar
Frank
USA 1SG Ret.
USPSA # A38489
NRA #LKR3373N
--
The-Trainers
cards?
I signed up a little while ago, and have not heard from them yet.
My whole family is waiting to see the card, befor ethey sign up too!
I got the NRA cap right away though!
MT