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RAW's Non-Euclidean Political Perspective
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Dan Clore  
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(1 user)  More options Jun 4 2002, 10:04 am
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From: Dan Clore <cl...@columbia-center.org>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:20:56 -0700
Local: Tues, Jun 4 2002 10:20 am
Subject: RAW's Non-Euclidean Political Perspective
News for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

[I finally got a scanner! From time to time now, I'll be
passing along some old articles that seem worthy of
attention but have somehow never made it onto the web.--DC]

This was published in _Critique: A Journal of Conspiracies
and Metaphysics_ #27, in 1988, and to my knowledge has never
been reprinted.

Left and Right: A Non-Euclidean Perspective

by Robert Anton Wilson

Our esteemed editor, Bob Banner, has invited me to
contribute an article on whether my politics are "left" or
"right," evidently because some flatlanders insist on
classifying me as Leftist and others, equally Euclidean,
argue that I am obviously some variety of Rightist.

Naturally, this debate intrigues me. The Poet prayed that
some power would the giftie gie us to see ourselves as
others see us; but every published writer has that dubious
privilege. I have been called a "sexist" (by Arlene Meyers)
and a "male feminist . . . a simpering pussy-whipped wimp"
(by L.A. Rollins), "one of the major thinkers of the modern
age" (by Barbara Marx Hubbard) and "stupid" (by Andrea
Chaflin Antonoff), a "genius" (by SOUNDS, London) and
"mentally deranged" (by Charles Platt), a "mystic" and
"charlatan" (by the Bay Area Skeptics) and a "materialist"
(by an anonymous gent in Seattle who also hit me with a
pie); one of my books has even been called "the most
scientific of all science-fiction novels" (by _New
Scientist_ physics editor John Gribbon) and "ranting and
raving" (by Neal Wilgus). I am also frequently called a
"Satanist" in some amusing, illiterate and usually anonymous
crank letters from Protestant Fundamentalists.

I can only conclude that I am indeed like a visitor from
non-Euclidean dimensions whose outlines are perplexing to
the Euclidean inhabitants of various dogmatic Flatlands. Or
else, Lichtenstein was right when he said a book "is a
mirror. When a monkey looks in, no philosopher looks out."
Of course, we are living in curved space (as noted by
Einstein); that should warn us that Euclidean metaphors are
always misleading. Science has also discovered that the
Universe can count above two, which should make us leery of
either/or choices. There are eight--count 'em,
eight--theories or models in quantum mechanics, all of which
use the same equations but have radically different
philosophical meanings; physicists have accepted the
multi-model approach (or "model agnosticism") for over 60
years now. In modern mathematics and logic, in addition to
the two-valued (yes/no) logic of Aristotle and Boole, there
are several three-valued logics (e.g. the yes, no and maybe
Quantum Logic of von Neumann; the yes, no and po of
psychologist Edward de Bono; etc.), at least one four-valued
logic (the true, false, indeterminate and meaningless of
Rapoport), and an infinite-valued logic (Korzybski). I
myself have presented a multi-valued logic in my
neuroscience seminars; the bare bones of this system will be
found in my book, _The New Inquisition_. Two-valued
Euclidean choices--left or right of an imaginary line--do
not seem very "real" to me, in comparison to the versatility
of modem science and mathematics.

Actually, it was once easy to classify me in simple
Euclidean topology. To paraphrase a recent article by the
brilliant Michael Hoy [_Critique_ #19/ 20], I had a Correct
Answer Machine installed in my brain when I was quite young.
It was a right-wing Correct Answer Machine in general and
Roman Catholic in particular. It was installed by nuns who
were very good at creating such machines and implanting them
in helpless children. By the time I got out of grammar
school, in 1945,1 had the Correct Answer for everything, and
it was the Correct Answer that you will nowadays still hear
from, say, William Buckley, Jr.

When I moved on to Brooklyn Technical High School, I
encountered many bright, likeable kids who were not
Catholics and not at all right-wing in any respect. They
naturally angered me at first. (That is the function of
Correct Answer Machines: to make you have an adrenaline
rush, instead of a new thought, when confronted with
different opinions.) But these bright, non-Catholic
kids--Protestants, Jews, agnostics, even
atheists--fascinated me in some ways. The result was that I
started reading all the authors the nuns had warned me
against--especially Darwin, Tom Paine, Ingersoll, Mencken
and Nietzsche.

I found myself floating in a void of incertitude, a
sensation that was unfamiliar and therefore uncomfortable. I
retreated back to robotism by electing to install a new
Correct Answer Machine in my brain. This happened to be a
Trotskyist Correct Answer Machine, provided by the
International Socialist Youth Party. I picked this Machine,
I think, because the alternative Correct Answer Machines
then available were less "Papist" (authoritarian) and
therefore less comfortable to my adolescent mind, still bent
out of shape by the good nuns.

(Why was I immune to Stalinism--an equally Papist secular
religion? I think the answer was my youth. The only
Stalinists left in the U.S. by the late '40s were all
middle-aged and "crystalized" as Gurdjieff would say. Those
of us who were younger could clearly see that Stalinism was
not much different from Hitlerism. The Trotskyist
alternative allowed me to feel "radical" and modern, without
becoming an idiot by denying the totalitarianism of the
USSR, and it let me have a martyred redeemer again a I had
in my Catholic childhood.)

After about a year, the Trotskyist Correct Answer Machine
began to seem a nuisance. I started to suspect that the
Trotskyists were some secular clone of the Vatican, whether
they knew it or not, and that the dogma of Papal
infallibility was no whit more absurd than the Trotskyist
submission to the Central Committee. I decided that I had
left one dogmatic Church and joined another. I even
suspected that if Trotsky had managed to hold on to power,
he might have been as dictatorial as Stalin.

Actually, what irritated me most about the Trots (and now
seems most amusing) is that I already had some tendency
toward individualism, or crankiness, or Heresy; I sometimes
disputed the Party Line. This always resulted in my being
denounced for "bourgeoisie tendencies." That was irritating
then and amusing now because I was actually the only member
of that Trot cell who did not come from a middle-class
background. I came from a working class family and was the
only genuine "proletarian" in the whole Marxist
_kaffeklatch_.

At the age of 18, then, I returned to the void of
incertitude. It began to seem almost comfortable there, and
I began to rejoice in my agnosticism. It made me feel
superior to the dogmatists of all types, and adolescents
love to feel superior to everybody (especially their
parents--or have you noticed that?). Around the same time as
my Trotskyist period, I began to read the first Revisionist
historians, whom I had been warned about by my high school
social science teachers, in grave and awful tones, as if
these men had killed a cat in the sacristy. My teachers were
too Liberal to tell me I would go to Hell for reading such
books (as the nuns had told me about Darwin, for instance),
but they made it clear that the Revisionists were Evil,
Awful, Unspeakable and probably some form of Pawns of the
Devil.

I recognized the technique of thought control again, so I
read all the Revisionists I could find. They convinced me
that the New Deal Liberals had deliberately lied and
manipulated the U.S. into World War II and were still lying
about what they did after the war was over. (In fact, they
are still lying about it today.)

The Revisionist who impressed me most was Harry Elmer
Barnes, a classic Liberal who was a til of a Marxist (in
methodology)--i.e., in his way of looking for economic
factors behind political actions. I was amused and disgusted
by the attempt of the New Deal gang to smear Professor
Barnes as a right-wing reactionary. Barnes, in fact, was an
advocate of progressive ideas in education, economics,
politics, criminology, sociology and anthropology all his
life but the New Deal Party Line had smeared him so
thoroughly that some people have heard of him only as some
cranky critic of Roosevelt and assume he was a Taft
Republican or even a pro-Nazi. In fact Barnes supported most
of the New Deal's domest policies, and dissented from
Liberal Dogma only in opposing the spread of American
adventurism and militarism all over the world.

Charles Beard, another great historian of classic Liberal
principles, agreed that Roosevelt deliberately lied to us in
World War II and was smeared in the same way as Professor
Barnes. This did not encourage me to have Faith in any Party
Line, even if it called itself the modern, liberal,
enlightened Party Line.

(I have never been convinced by the Holocaust Revisionists,
however, simply because I have met a great many Holocaust
eye-witnesses, or alleged eyewitnesses, in the past 40
years. Most of these people I seemingly met by accident, in
both Europe and America. A conspiracy that has that many
liars planted in that many places--or has always paid such
special attention to me that it placed these liars where I
would meet them--is a conspiracy too omnipotent and
omnipresent, and therefore too metaphysical, for me to take
seriously. A conspiracy so Godlike in its powers could, in
principle, deceive us about anything and everything, and I
wonder why the Holocaust Revisionists still believe that
World War II occurred, or that any of past history ever
happened.)

I reached 20 and became an employee (i.e. a robot) in the
McCarthy Era and the Eisenhower years; my agnosticism became
more total and so did my suspicion that politics is a
carnival or buncombe (as Mencken once said). It seemed
obvious to me that, while Senator Joe was a liar of stellar
magnitude, a lot of the Liberals were lying their heads off,
too, in attempts to hide their previous fondness for
Stalinism. That was something
...

read more »


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John Shafto  
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 More options Jun 4 2002, 2:53 pm
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From: "John Shafto" <_john_@_shafto.org_>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 12:52:39 -0600
Local: Tues, Jun 4 2002 2:52 pm
Subject: Re: RAW's Non-Euclidean Political Perspective
"Dan Clore" <cl...@columbia-center.org> wrote in message

news:3CFCCCC8.9F4C37D6@columbia-center.org...

> News for Anarchists & Activists:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

> [I finally got a scanner! From time to time now, I'll be
> passing along some old articles that seem worthy of
> attention but have somehow never made it onto the web.--DC]

> This was published in _Critique: A Journal of Conspiracies
> and Metaphysics_ #27, in 1988, and to my knowledge has never
> been reprinted.

> Left and Right: A Non-Euclidean Perspective
> by Robert Anton Wilson

I think this is a good example of the expression,
"so open-minded your brains fall out"  :)

I enjoyed reading it, and agreed with some of it,
but don't understand a fear of dogmatism (and
a philosophical skepticism) so powerful that one thinks
that there are no correct answers, while simultaneously
claiming to be searching for the answers that maximize
individual liberty.   It's contradictory.


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Adam Retchless  
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 More options Jun 4 2002, 3:30 pm
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From: adam_retchl...@hushmail.com (Adam Retchless)
Date: 4 Jun 2002 12:30:32 -0700
Local: Tues, Jun 4 2002 3:30 pm
Subject: Re: RAW's Non-Euclidean Political Perspective

Dan Clore <cl...@columbia-center.org> wrote in message <news:3CFCCCC8.9F4C37D6@columbia-center.org>...
> News for Anarchists & Activists:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

> [I finally got a scanner! From time to time now, I'll be
> passing along some old articles that seem worthy of
> attention but have somehow never made it onto the web.--DC]

> This was published in _Critique: A Journal of Conspiracies
> and Metaphysics_ #27, in 1988, and to my knowledge has never
> been reprinted.

> Left and Right: A Non-Euclidean Perspective

> by Robert Anton Wilson

Great article!  I'll have to read those authors that he mentioned.

have a good one,
adam


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Hewpiedawg  
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 More options Jun 5 2002, 12:15 am
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From: "Hewpiedawg" <hewpied...@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 21:15:20 -0700
Local: Wed, Jun 5 2002 12:15 am
Subject: Re: RAW's Non-Euclidean Political Perspective
This was an interesting post, Dan.  I have to admit that.

I have to differ with Mr. Shafto about radical skepticism
being contradictory with a drive towards maximizing
individual liberty.  If all of our answers are merely guesses,
if we see through a glass darkly, how can we justify
shoving answers down anyone's throat?


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John Shafto  
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 More options Jun 5 2002, 1:26 am
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From: "John Shafto" <_john_@_shafto.org_>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:25:30 -0600
Local: Wed, Jun 5 2002 1:25 am
Subject: Re: RAW's Non-Euclidean Political Perspective
"Hewpiedawg" <> wrote
 in message news:kggL8.3355$Dn3.30570@dfw-read.news.verio.net...

> This was an interesting post, Dan.  I have to admit that.

> I have to differ with Mr. Shafto about radical skepticism
> being contradictory with a drive towards maximizing
> individual liberty.  If all of our answers are merely guesses,
> if we see through a glass darkly, how can we justify
> shoving answers down anyone's throat?

I never said anything about shoving anything down
anyone's throat, you misrepresent me.

A philosophical skeptic searching for the best way to maximize
individual liberty is like a deer hunter getting all dressed up and
going out in the woods, but who doesn't want to believe in deer.
Even if he sees one, he'll just rub his eyes and shake his head.

One thing I know for sure, the correct answers to theft and slavery
are "no".

This isn't to say that there is not something to what the author of that
article calls the "Correct Answer Machine", and that the right/left
dichotomy is a false alternative.  There are correct answers both
on the "right" and "left", in popular political parlance.  Just enough
correct answers to keep each team supporting the cause, but
not enough to get anything done.   They couldn't have one team
with all the correct answers, and another with all the wrong answers,
that would be a rout, and very bad for the guys who rely on soaking
society for all it's worth.

--
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth,
 but most of them pick themselves up and
 hurry off as if nothing had happened."
 -- Winston Churchill


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G*rd*n  
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 More options Jun 5 2002, 7:53 am
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From: g...@panix.com (G*rd*n)
Date: 5 Jun 2002 07:53:16 -0400
Local: Wed, Jun 5 2002 7:53 am
Subject: Re: RAW's Non-Euclidean Political Perspective
"Hewpiedawg" <hewpied...@hotmail.com>:
| This was an interesting post, Dan.  I have to admit that.
|
| I have to differ with Mr. Shafto about radical skepticism
| being contradictory with a drive towards maximizing
| individual liberty.  If all of our answers are merely guesses,
| if we see through a glass darkly, how can we justify
| shoving answers down anyone's throat?

A common criticism of rad skep is that it suggests an
antinomianism in which only power matters.  That is, there
is no reason _not_ to shove answers down anyone's throat,
so since one presumably wants to, one does.

--

                (<><>)         /*/
       }"{   G*rd*n   }"{   g...@panix.com   }"{
{ http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 5/17/02 <-adv't


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John Shafto  
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 More options Jun 5 2002, 11:43 am
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From: "John Shafto" <_john_@_shafto.org_>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:33:54 -0600
Local: Wed, Jun 5 2002 11:33 am
Subject: Re: RAW's Non-Euclidean Political Perspective
"G*rd*n" <> wrote
 in message news:adku3c$9uv$1@panix2.panix.com...

> "Hewpiedawg" <hewpied...@hotmail.com>:
> | This was an interesting post, Dan.  I have to admit that.
> |
> | I have to differ with Mr. Shafto about radical skepticism
> | being contradictory with a drive towards maximizing
> | individual liberty.  If all of our answers are merely guesses,
> | if we see through a glass darkly, how can we justify
> | shoving answers down anyone's throat?

> A common criticism of rad skep is that it suggests an
> antinomianism in which only power matters.  That is, there
> is no reason _not_ to shove answers down anyone's throat,
> so since one presumably wants to, one does.

Not to mention the inherent nihilism of it.

I have yet to meet a self-professed moral skeptic that
doesn't have some ideas against/for something, they
can be some of the most self-righteous folks one can meet.
Philosophical skepticism is often the way they try to justify
their pre-existing moral beliefs.

Philosophical  skeptics are constantly borrowing concepts
from other philosophical positions.


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Hewpiedawg  
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 More options Jun 5 2002, 11:53 am
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From: "Hewpiedawg" <hewpied...@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 08:52:57 -0700
Local: Wed, Jun 5 2002 11:52 am
Subject: Re: RAW's Non-Euclidean Political Perspective

"John Shafto" <_john_@_shafto.org_> wrote in message

news:ufr87ujbgcr890@corp.supernews.com...

> "Hewpiedawg" <> wrote
>  in message news:kggL8.3355$Dn3.30570@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
> > This was an interesting post, Dan.  I have to admit that.

> > I have to differ with Mr. Shafto about radical skepticism
> > being contradictory with a drive towards maximizing
> > individual liberty.  If all of our answers are merely guesses,
> > if we see through a glass darkly, how can we justify
> > shoving answers down anyone's throat?

> I never said anything about shoving anything down
> anyone's throat, you misrepresent me.

That was not an accusation, John.  Rather it was an
explication of why one is likely to come to libertarian
conclusions as a result of skepticism.

> A philosophical skeptic searching for the best way to maximize
> individual liberty is like a deer hunter getting all dressed up and
> going out in the woods, but who doesn't want to believe in deer.
> Even if he sees one, he'll just rub his eyes and shake his head.

Is that true?  I have my doubts.

> One thing I know for sure, the correct answers to theft and slavery
> are "no".

It may be that a "live and let live" attitude is a matter of temperament,
and that some, with different temperaments will want to see "theft
and slavery" in a light of skepticism and doubt that they are so bad.
It certainly is not a necessary result of skepticism to do so, however.
Moreover, it appears that most of those with great faith apply their
principles with dubious consistency.

It could be that given that we are all going to die someday, finding
meaning while we are here precludes the enslavement and coercion
of others.

> This isn't to say that there is not something to what the author of that
> article calls the "Correct Answer Machine", and that the right/left
> dichotomy is a false alternative.  There are correct answers both
> on the "right" and "left", in popular political parlance.  Just enough
> correct answers to keep each team supporting the cause, but
> not enough to get anything done.   They couldn't have one team
> with all the correct answers, and another with all the wrong answers,
> that would be a rout, and very bad for the guys who rely on soaking
> society for all it's worth.

I have to say that there are those who have believed in such CAMs
which are now considered entirely dysfunctional by just about
everyone today.  That didn't stop some such CAMs from becoming
dominant, for a time.

Doubt helps to prevent such machines from ruling one's consciousness.


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Hewpiedawg  
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 More options Jun 5 2002, 11:58 am
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From: "Hewpiedawg" <hewpied...@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 08:58:11 -0700
Local: Wed, Jun 5 2002 11:58 am
Subject: Re: RAW's Non-Euclidean Political Perspective

"G*rd*n" <g...@panix.com> wrote in message

news:adku3c$9uv$1@panix2.panix.com...

> "Hewpiedawg" <hewpied...@hotmail.com>:
> | This was an interesting post, Dan.  I have to admit that.
> |
> | I have to differ with Mr. Shafto about radical skepticism
> | being contradictory with a drive towards maximizing
> | individual liberty.  If all of our answers are merely guesses,
> | if we see through a glass darkly, how can we justify
> | shoving answers down anyone's throat?

> A common criticism of rad skep is that it suggests an
> antinomianism in which only power matters.  That is, there
> is no reason _not_ to shove answers down anyone's throat,
> so since one presumably wants to, one does.

Yes.  I suppose the aphorism, "Nothing is true, everything is
permitted" comes into play here.  I have my doubts about the
validity of that, however.

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mikel evins  
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 More options Jun 5 2002, 12:17 pm
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From: mikel evins <mi...@reactivity.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 16:16:49 GMT
Local: Wed, Jun 5 2002 12:16 pm
Subject: Re: RAW's Non-Euclidean Political Perspective

Like solipsism and nihilism, radical skepticism is unassailable, but,
also like those others, it is uninteresting. Nothing is revealed,
nothing interesting entailed by it.

Unless existence is truly random (another unassailable position that
leads to nothing interesting), a person's continued existence
testifies to an operational belief in propositions, regardless of what
discursive position he or she may adopt. For example, the act of
eating betrays an operational belief that eating is needed for
survival and that survival is good. The eater may protest that he or
she lacks belief in these propositions but the act of eating belies
the voiced belief.


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John Shafto  
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 More options Jun 5 2002, 6:37 pm
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From: "John Shafto" <~moc.otam@nhoj~>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:41:24 -0600
Local: Wed, Jun 5 2002 6:41 pm
Subject: Re: RAW's Non-Euclidean Political Perspective
"Hewpiedawg" <> wrote in message

news:kuqL8.3376$Dn3.31265@dfw-read.news.verio.net...

I see what you were getting at now, but I don't think
it is necessary to go to the extremes of philosophical
skepticism to be libertarian.  In fact, if it is your moral
position that "right" is "do as you will, so long as it harms
none but possibly yourself", then you have taken a moral
position.  That contradicts skepticism, how can a moral
skeptic defend libertarianism?

> <snip>
> Doubt helps to prevent such machines from ruling one's
> consciousness.

Considering all moral positions is different than believing
that none are more correct than others.  Reconsidering
your accepted correct positions in the light of new information
is also important.

--
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to
 entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle


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NeonCat  
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 More options Jun 6 2002, 12:34 am
Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian, alt.politics.libertarian, alt.fan.rawilson, alt.activism, alt.anarchism, alt.society.anarchy, alt.fan.noam-chomsky, alt.anarchy.rules, alt.fan.jello-biafra
From: "NeonCat" <catnha...@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 04:34:18 GMT
Local: Thurs, Jun 6 2002 12:34 am
Subject: Re: RAW's Non-Euclidean Political Perspective
So a lesson we can learn, I guess, is that CAMs (Correct Answer Machines)
make you a tool.

"Dan Clore" <cl...@columbia-center.org> wrote in message

news:3CFCCCC8.9F4C37D6@columbia-center.org...

...

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Drop Uwener  
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 More options Jun 7 2002, 12:24 am
Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian, alt.politics.libertarian, alt.fan.rawilson, alt.activism, alt.anarchism, alt.society.anarchy, alt.fan.noam-chomsky, alt.anarchy.rules, alt.fan.jello-biafra
From: em...@juno.com (Drop Uwener)
Date: 6 Jun 2002 21:24:24 -0700
Local: Fri, Jun 7 2002 12:24 am
Subject: Re: RAW's Non-Euclidean Political Perspective

"NeonCat" <catnha...@earthlink.net> wrote in message <news:eDBL8.7$1E5.2@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> So a lesson we can learn, I guess, is that CAMs (Correct Answer Machines)
> make you a tool.

perhaps instead failure makes ye into tool

-D

"I cheated in my metaphysics course and skipped to the end." -amusing
anecdote

you as RAW appear to be very categorizeable. I hope this doesn't mean
that if I want to ask a question I would necessarily have to plug
several people in to each other

-D


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