The Complete Unexpurgated AIPAC Tape
Doomsday Cultist
The Complete Unexpurgated AIPAC Tape
(Following is a transcript of the Oct. 22, 1992 conversation with
President David Steiner of the American Israel Public Affairs
Committee (AIPAC) recorded without his knowledge by New York
businessman Haim (Harry) Katz. Its existence was first revealed to the
Washington Times and its release triggered Steiner's resignation.
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/1292/9212013.html
David Steiner: Haim.
Harry Katz: Hello, how are you?
DS: Where are you located?
HK: I'm located in Queens, New York.
DS: Queens.. .Far Rockaway?
HK: Belle Harbor.
DS: Belle Harbor. I'm trying to get this list together. Would you ever
get into the city?
HK: Sure, I do. Sure, you come frequently?
DS: Well I come in from time to time. I have an office there, at AIPAC
in the city. You know, I want you to understand . . . where did you
get my name and phone number?
HK: Oh, I, um, I called AIPAC. . .
DS: Yeah.
HK: And ahh. . .I know you're the president of AIPAC...
DS: You should understand that, the political information that I gave
you, those are personal choices . . .
HK: Sure, I understand.
DS: AIPAC does not rate or endorse candidates, does not solicit
money. . .
HK: Yeah, look.
DS: I want you to understand that the choices I would give you are
personal choices.
HK: I understand.
DS: I wonder if before . . . I want to get together with you next
week.
HK: Next week would be fine.
DS: But in the meantime, I wonder if I can have one of my people get
together with you and talk to you about it . . . They'll want to meet
you and know who you are and all this. I have a.. . maybe if I can
have Seth Buchwald call you, my New York director.
HK: That would be terrific.
DS: And we have a guy out there, Joel Schnur. And, are you orthodox?
HK: Ah, yes.
DS: Okay, Joel is orthodox too. I am not.
HK: You're reform or?
DS: I'm reform.
HK: Okay, let me just say. . .
DS: I was raised orthodox but I'm reform.
HK: Okay, let me just tell you that, I'll just hold you a minute. I'll
be happy to meet with them, I know, I've heard the names, I'd be happy
to meet with them, as a matter of fact I could, when I'm in
Manhattan...Are you ever in Manhattan?
DS: Sure, today I'm going to be there, but I can't. I'm meeting with
the ambassador.
HK: Okay, I'll just ask you very very quickly. You know, like, in New
York, you know, this is your own personal opinion, like in New York we
have Abrams against D'Amato.
DS: Well, let me tell you what my personal position is. Okay?
HK: Yeah.
DS: From a Jewish point of view, I believe in political loyalty.
HK: Right.
DS: And if someone has been good for Israel, no matter who, if my
brother would run against them, I would support them because they'd
been good to Israel because that's an important message to people.
HK: Right.
DS: What I'm going to be doing for you. . .
HK: Now D'Amato, has he been good for Israel?
DS: You couldn't have a better . . . listen I think Abrams would be
good too, but that's not the message.
HK: Yeah.
DS: Ah...
HK: So the message, so the message is that ah...I agree with you all
the way, that if somebody's been good for Israel, I'll take D'Amato.
But you have no complaints with D'Amato?
DS: I have no complaints with D'Amato.
HK: Uh huh, so and ah, you know, let me tell you, Abrams might be,
might be too liberal. I don't know if Abrams supported, let's say the
ah, the war against Iraq.
DS: Yeah, I don't know, and ah, I don't know. But all I know is if I
have a guy who is there and he's doing it, then I don't want to
change, you know?
HK: Right. Let me ask you this very quickly and then I will. . .
DS: I'm going to have Seth call you because in the meantime I'm going
to be preparing this list, what I'm doing is, I've asked my friends in
the various campaigns, I've made about 30 calls, what I'm trying to
put together who needs it the most, you know? Because you could
dissipate a million dollars, but the point is to put it where it's
going to do the most, I know Bob Kasten, who's been an outstanding
friend and needs it I know. . .
HK: Excuse my ignorance. Bob Kasten is what state?
DS: From Wisconsin. . .
HK: Okay, is he Jewish?
DS: . . .He's for loan guarantees, he happens to be a Republican.
HK: Okay, and but, he's good? He's. . .
DS: You couldn't have better.
HK: Is Kasten, Kasten's been very, very good and he's in trouble?
DS: He's in big trouble. Les Aspin, who's the Chairman of the Military
Appropriations, a Democrat also from Wisconsin is really
unintelligible.
HK: You mean, Les Aspin is in trouble?
DS: In big trouble.
HK: I can't believe it. I mean, I don't, I don't follow . . .
DS: Well see, what happened was, you know ah, when you get to know me,
I'll put you on my list and I'll be sending all these things. A
wealthy businessman decided to run, using all his own money. Aspin,
'cause they sit on the finance committee for Aspin. . .
HK: Right.
DS: . ..programmed the last two weeks of, well the last month of the
campaign, for TV. This guy came in two months early and we didn't have
the money budgeted, so we're out scratching around to raise money for
him. So we, heck, I told him, I said that I'd go, I'll sign on the
bank on a loan for you, you know, that's how important it is.
HK: Unbelievable. You know I read, I won't hold you long, but I'd just
tell you this. . .
DS: That's okay.
HK: . . .I'll just tell you this, I read the New York Post, and I
don't even read the papers too much, I don't follow politics . . . are
you ready for this?
DS: Yeah.
HK: Get ready for this. I read in the papers this morning, I think it
was the (NY) Post, Barbara Boxer, in California. . .
DS: Yeah.
HK: . ..do you know who she is?
DS: I know who...
HK: She's originally from, ah. . . New York I think. . .
DS: A friend of yours?
HK: No, no, no. She's not a friend of mine, but she, ah, I think she's
in trouble.
DS: Yeah, that's ah, in that race we're okay either way, 'cause Bruce
Herschensohn, who she's running against, is Jewish, and he's very
strong on our issues.
HK: Okay, but Herschensohn.. .
DS: Herschensohn's a very conservative Republican.
HK: You know, he's come out of nowhere. He was like 30 points
behind.. .
DS: Right.
HK: He's come out of nowhere with it.
DS: Because the truth of the matter is, she didn't always vote for
foreign aid. We had a big meeting, I had a program in L.A. I had all
four senatorial candidates there, and he ripped her apart. She has
always voted against foreign and.
HK: What about the one, in ah, the one in. . . um, what's his name? I
read it in the paper, it's just a shocker, politics is a crazy game.
The black woman in Chicago. . .
DS: Carol Moseley Braun?
HK: She was going to win by 50 points. . .
DS: Oh it's down, she took the money, it's a big problem.
HK: It's a big problem with her. . .
DS: And we have a problem with another good friend. You know Daniel
Inouye, from Hawaii he's one of our best friends. It was Kasten-Inouye
on the loan guarantees, Kasten-Inouye and Leahy.. .
HK: I heard, I saw it on, I know Inouye's in trouble because of, he
sexually harassed his hairdresser. . .
DS: We commissioned a poll and got some people, and I've got to raise
$27,000 to pay for the poll . . . so I have, so what I'm trying to do
is make a priority list, because I don't know how far you want to
go. . . how old are your kids by the way? . . . You had three children
that could write checks, do they have their own checking accounts?
HK: Yes.
DS: Oh, so that's not going to be. . .
HK: How old do they have to be?
DS: They can't be one year old.
HK: I mean, could they be 18, 17?
DS: Sure, no problem, so they could make, nobody's going to bother
you, but if you had infants, a four-year-old, let's say, it's not a
contest.
HK: Let me tell you, I was planning, I was planning to, to . . .
Inouye, by the way, is in real trouble? He's been there forever. . .
DS: Yeah! Well, we might lose him. There's been such a sea change,
such trouble this year, I can't believe all our friends that are in
trouble. Because there's an anti-incumbency mood, and foreign aid has
not been popular. You know what I got for, I met with U.S. Secretary
of State Jim Baker and I cut a deal with him. I got, besides the $3
billion, you know they're looking for the Jewish votes, and I'll tell
him whatever he wants to hear. . .
HK: Right.
DS: Besides the $10 billion in loan guarantees which was a fabulous
thing, $3 billion in foreign, in military aid, and I got almost a
billion dollars in other goodies that people don't even know about.
HK: Such as?
DS: $700 million in military draw-down, from equipment that the United
States Army's going to give to Israel; $200 million the U.S.
government is going to preposition materials in Israel, which Israel
can draw upon; put them in the global warning protection system; so
when if there's a missile fired, they'll get the same advanced
notification that the U.S., is notified, joint military exercises--I've
got a whole shopping list of things.
HK: So this is from Baker?
DS: From Baker and from the Pentagon.
HK: So, not so, not.. .
DS: Why did he do it, you know, why did he do it? Last year I was a
bum. This year I said look Jim, we're going to fight on the F-l5s.
Israel doesn't want to fight, I said, but some people on it are going
to come up on the floor of the Senate and the House and they're going
to fight. If you'll do this, I think I can hold them back. But you've
got to do it right away. They didn't want to fight. I said, "You don't
want a fight before the election. It's going to hurt Bush. We don't
want a fight before the election. We don't want to fight at all. Why
can't we work something out?" So we cut a deal. You can't repeat this.
HK: You're right. But you met with Baker. . .
DS: Personally.
HK: Personally. Because you know, he's the one who cursed, who cursed
the Jews.
DS: Of course, do you think I'm ever going to forgive him for that?
HK: Unbelievable. I said...
DS: Do you think I could ever forgive Bush for what he did September
12th a year ago? What he said about the Jews for lobbying in
Washington?
HK: Do you think that Baker has a legitimate concern for the Jews?
From what I hear, do you think he's anti-Semitic?
DS: I wouldn't go so far as to say that. He's a pragmatic businessman,
he's a very tough lawyer. He does whatever it takes.
HK: And that's why.. .
DS: If we didn't have an election this year, you would get
unintelligible from him.
HK: Let me ask you a quick question. Just a quick question here. You
know Perot, you know, I'm telling you this is scary. I don't know what
you think of Perot, but if Perot hadn't backed out, I watched the
debates. I thought Perot did marvelous in the debates.
DS: He doesn't know how to govern. He's not going to make it. And
there was an incident where his daughter was going out with a Jewish
professor at school and he said, "I wouldn't have my daughter marry a
Jew."
HK: So Perot, they say that if Perot hadn't backed out in July, and if
he would have gotten himself a good running mate, you know . . .
DS: He wouldn't win, but it would go to the House of Representatives.
The Democrats would win in the House of Representatives.
HK: So if it goes to the House, the Democrats would win for sure.
DS: For sure.
HK: Okay let me ask you, last question and then I'll be happy to meet
with your New York people. . .
DS: You know, you sound like my kind of guy. How old are you?
HK: Forty-two.
DS: You're a kid.
HK: I'm not a kid, I'm 42. . .
DS: I'm 63, you're a kid.
HK: I wish I was...
DS: We'll have to get you involved. I like you, we have a lot to talk
about, about real estate, you know, I have so many great activities
going on at AIPAC, you ought to think about coming to some of these
things. I'll have a dinner this fall. I'll have 18-20 senators there.
I run programs in Washington. We just had a, I had at Ted Kennedy's
house last month kosher dinner. I brought foremost caterers down. I
had 60 people on the couch for dinner. Last year, I did it in Al
Gore's house.
HK: Right.
DS: Those are the things you should be getting involved in and knowing
what's going on. . .
HK: Let me just ask you about Clinton. I want to tell you, you may not
believe this, but I think that if Perot. . .
DS: Yeah, he would've given us a hard time. What's the name of your
company, what do you do business as?
HK: We do business as HK, Inc.
DS: HK, Inc.?
HK: Right.
DS: Do you have a street address?
HK: Sure. 621 Beach 129th Street, Belle Harbor, Queens, New York,
11694.
DS: Yeah, because on my computer you only show a post office box. This
is your house? You work out of your house?
HK: Yeah, out of an office in the house. . . Look, Mr. Steiner...
DS: David. My father's Mr. Steiner.
HK: David, let me just ask you about Clinton. Honestly, what do you
feel about Clinton?
DS: Well, I've known Bill Clinton for seven eight years. I think he's
got to be a lot better than George Bush. . . we have a lot of people
in there. But he doesn't need money, he really doesn't need money. I'm
a trustee of the Democratic National Committee. We collected $63
million for him so far.
HK: Who's collected $63 million?
DS: The Democratic National Committee and the Clinton campaign have
raised $63 million.
HK: So they've already raised $63 million, so they don't need money.
DS: No, we need money, like we got a guy, Byron Dorgan, in North
Dakota, who's going to be very good for us and we need money to make
sure that he gets in. We've got people like that, because
unintelligible, whatever you give them would be a tickle on the
elephant's behind. But when you give $5,000 or $10,000 to Bob Kasten,
that's very meaningful.
HK: Let me ask you, I understand what you're saying. Clinton, when
Clinton first started running a year ago, did he need money at that
time?
DS: Yes he did.
HK: I mean, did you help him out, 'cause that's the time. . .
DS: I personally am not allowed, as president of AIPAC, to get
involved in the presidential campaign, because I have to deal with
whoever wins. You know, I've got to go see Bush if he's there, but I
helped him, we raised over a million dollars for him in New Jersey.
HK: For Clinton?
DS: For Clinton.
HK: And this was when, in the beginning?
DS: In the beginning, yes. After he won, before the convention.
HK: This is before the convention?
DS: Oh sure.
HK: Okay, let me ask you, you know, T
DS: We've also raised for other guys who are running too, because
they're friends. Harkin, the senator, you know you have to be with
everybody.
HK: Let me ask you, talks about getting cheated in business by
Gentiles. Let me ask you, Clinton, if he becomes, I mean what will he
do for Israel, better than Bush, if he becomes, I know Bush gave you a
hard time, this and that. ..
DS: I'II tell you, I have friends on the Clinton campaign, close
associates. Gore is very committed to us.
HK: Right. Clinton if he, have you spoken to him?
DS: I've known Bill for seven, eight years from the National Governors
Association. I know him on a personal basis. I have friends. One of my
friends is Hillary Clinton's scheduler, one of my officer's daughters
works there. We gave two employees from AIPAC leave of absences to
work on the campaign. I mean, we have a dozen people in that campaign,
in the headquarters.
HK: You mean in Little Rock?
DS: In Little Rock, and they're all going to get big jobs. We have
friends. I also work with a think tank, the Washington Institute. I
have Michael Mandelbaum and Martin Indyk being foreign policy
advisers. Steve Speigel--we've got friends--this is my business.
HK: I understand, David.
DS: It's very complicated and the more you get into it, you'll love
it. You sound like a smart guy.
HK: I'm a smart guy, but I have a, maybe because I'm more orthodox
than you are, I've had bad experiences with Gentiles. Let me ask you,
you know what "tachlis" means?
DS: Yeah, sure.
HK: From a practical point of view, if Clinton wins the presidency,
and I'm sure he will, I hope so at least, what will be the benefits to
Israel better than Bush? From a very practical point . . . I mean, you
just told me that Bush gave you everything you wanted. . .
DS: Only, not everything, at the end, when we didn't want the F-15s,
that's a terrible thing.
HK: Selling the F-15s? If Clinton is elected. . .
DS: Let me tell you the problem with the $10 billion in loan
guarantees, right? We only have the first year. We have authorization
from Congress, but it's at the discretion of the president every year
thereafter, so if Bush is there, he could say, you know, use it as a
club, you know. 'If you don't give up Syria, I won't give you the
money. If you don't give up the Golan Heights.' It's at the discretion
of the president. And that's why we need a friendly president and we
have Bill Clinton's ear. I talked to Bill Clinton.
HK: And Bill Clinton has made a commitment that if he's
elected . . . ?
DS: He's going to be very good for us.
HK: And he'll go ahead with the loan guarantees?
DS: We didn't talk about that specifically, listen, I didn't ask him
that, but I have full confidence that we're going to have a much
better situation. He's got Jewish friends. A girl who worked for me at
AIPAC stood up for them at their wedding. Hillary lived with her. I
mean we have those relationships. We have never had that with Bush.
Susan Thomases, who's in there, worked with me on the Bradley
campaign. We worked together for 13 years. She's In there with the
family. They stay with her when they come to New York. One of my
officers, Monte Friedkin, is one of the biggest fund-raisers for them.
I mean, I have people like that all over the country.
HK: So, I mean from a practical point of view. . .
DS: He's going to be with us.
HK: I don't say, this business, you say, Bush only went ahead with the
loan guarantees for one year.
DS: We only have. It's mandatory they give us the $2 billion for one
year. After that it's subject to the discretion of the president.
HK: You mean the other $8 billion?
DS: That's correct. On an annualized basis.
HK: Also, I heard that. . .
DS: They don't have to give it to us.
HK: But if Clinton is elected. . .
DS:... feel reasonably certain we're gonna get It.
HK: He's made that commitment?
DS: Well, he said he's going to help us. He's got something in his
heart for the Jews, he has Jewish friends. Bush has no Jewish friends.
HK: Right.
DS: Reagan had something . . . meshuga, but at least he had a
commitment. He knew Jews from the film industry, he was one of the
best guys for us. He had an emotional thing for the Jews. Bush doesn't
have it. That's what it is really, if you have a feeling for our
people, for what we believe in. Bush is, there's a man with no
principles. Absolutely no principles.
HK: I heard something about, but I never really understood it, with
the scoring. One of my friends told me there's a difference in the
scoring, but I don't understand. . .
DS: Scoring is like points that you pay.
HK: So let's say, if Bush is elected on the loans . . .
DS: No, we've got the scoring arranged, it's four and a half percent.
It's all done.
HK: That's all done, even with Bush?
DS: Even with Bush. I've got that worked out.
HK: So that's all done.
DS: It's in the bill. It's all passed. He signed the bill. It's a
matter of law.
HK: So it's already four and a half percent?
DS: We could've had it less, but then we couldn't. . .
HK: And Clinton, if he was president, he would give...?
DS: He could not change it, you cannot change it.
HK: No, but I'm saying, if he was president now, before the bill was
signed, he would've given you the four and a half percent. . .
DS: I would've gotten less.
HK: I'm sorry?
DS: I would've gotten it cheaper.
HK: How much? Even two percent?
DS: Yeah, we thought we were going to get two percent. But Rabin gave
it away.
HK: You mean Rabin didn't bargain as good as he could have?
DS: That's right.
HK: Unbelievable. So, if Clinton is elected, that will be the best. ..
DS: I think that will be the best we could do.
HK: You know, I just want to tell you one last thing. Do you have
parents that come from Europe?
DS: Yeah, of course, from Glolitzano, near Krakow. ,
HK: You're kidding, your parents are from Krakow?
DS: Near Krakow.
HK: Guess what?
DS: You too?
HK: My parents are from Krakow.
DS: Well, we're not from Krakow, but from near Krakow. My mother's
from Rudnick, my father from Gruns, near Tano. Do you know where Tano
is?
HK: Yes. Let me tell you. . .
DS .. don't have many left. Everybody got
HK: Let me tell you. The same with me. Let me tell you, my parents
were the only ones who came out. Let me tell you, my. . .
DS: You're a Holocaust survivor?
HK: Yeah, no, not me, my parents.
DS: That's some experience, I've got two cousins, I've got one in
Israel and one in France that came out of Mauthausen, I'll tell you,
and everybody else dead on my father's side, in Russia. I just brought
six of them from Koshkent to Israel last year.
HK: Right. Let me tell you that, you know what my father always says?
My father was a rich man in Poland, and he says, he says, "Economic
power is very good. You have to have money, but if you just have
economic power and you don't have political power. . ."
DS: "You've got nothing."
HK: You've got nothing.
DS: If we had AIPAC in the '30s and '40s, we would have saved millions
of Jews. We would have the political power. But Jews were afraid to
open their mouths. They didn't know how.
HK: AIPAC started after WWII?
DS: Oh, sure.
HK And if you would have had AIPAC in the
DS: I feel we would've saved a lot of Jews. HK: And Franklin
Roosevelt, he could've done a lot better?
DS: Sure, he could. The Jews never opened their mouths. They were
afraid. We're not afraid. They can curse me out, I don't care if they
hate me, just as long as I get what we need for our people.
HK: So if you had a little lamp, a wishing lamp and you could wish for
either Bush, Clinton or Perot. . .
DS: Clinton.
HK: Clinton all the way? And in terms of Israel having political
power, between the three candidates, the one who will give us the most
political power?
DS: Clinton is the best guy for us.
HK: He's the best one.
DS: I hope you're serious about what you told me.
HK: I am, I'll tell you this tells a long anecdote about David Souter
promising to oppose abortion as a nominee and then reversing himself
on the Supreme Court. So I wish we had a Jewish candidate for
president.
DS: I don't think the country's ready.
HK: If the country was ready, is there any Jewish candidate...?
DS:I wouldn't venture to say anything.
HK: You know who? I don't know him, I've never met him, Joe Lieberman.
DS: Oh, I'm very friendly with Joe. I'm having dinner with him Monday
night.
HK: Let me tell you, I think Joe Lieberman would have, uh, would have,
if he wasn't Jewish, that's the only problem he has. He's highly
respected.
DS: I'd like to see him on the Supreme Court.
HK: If Clinton is elected, has he told you who he's going to put on
the Supreme Court?
DS: We're talking now. We don't have no commitments yet. We're just
negotiating. We're more interested right now, in the secretary of
state and the secretary of National Security Agency. That's more
important to us.
HK: If Clinton is elected, who do you think will be secretary of
state?
DS: We don't know yet, we're negotiating.
HK: Who are you hoping for?
DS: I've got a list. But I really can't go through it. I'm not allowed
to talk about it.
HK: But you figure, God willing, if Clinton's elected . . .
DS: We'll have access.
HK: You'll have access and you'll have a good input into who's
secretary of state.
DS: I do believe so.
HK: And the other position is. . .
DS: National security adviser.
HK: Those are the two critical positions.
DS: Right.
HK: Gotcha. Well, David, thanks for talking with me.
W: And we're going to get together next week. I hope you'll have your
checkbook ready.
HK: Will do.
DS: Okay, thanks.
HK: And let me ask you about the real estate. . . more talk about
irrelevant issues.