Gay separatist manifesto
kin...@abacom.com
Homosexuality exists because we`ve discovered on our own that our sex
was attractive.
That discovery occured against all intents,purposes,expectations or
wishes of the societies in which we were conceived and reared.None of
us would have even been born if homosexuality had been genetic and
discoverable before our birth actually occured.
We ow our existence to no one but ourselves.
We must fear those who expound theories about a gay gene.For in the
current circumstances,they express more an implicit desire to remove
that gene than to tamper in any manner with some other "natural" or
"superior" het gene.Who indeed would be allowed to tamper with a het
gene if such gene existed and if the technology existed to remove it ?
We must be concerned by right-wing fundamentalists seeking our
conversion to heterosexuality.Because in the current situation,
homosexuality depends exclusively upon the adhesion of individuals
who are supported by no social or state organisation worthy of that
name,and who are at the same time faced with various assimilationist
and conservative trends among us.
Our difficulties with hets are historical as well as political.
They have originated in a het social and state structure which
renders irrelevant the good or the bad intentions or deeds of het
individuals towards us.These difficulties are beyong any intervention
confined to the realm of personal relations.
They are also beyong any social intervention which would leave
untouched the hetro monopoly on future embodied in hetro copyright
on reproductive techniques and exclusive property and authority over
mandkind`s offspring.
As things stand,the future is determined solely by the het breeders
and owners of this hetro circus,and by none of the political puppets
or clowns speaking in their name.
Living in a society which reduces us gays to a minority and which
denies us the basic right to continuity and existence as a group,we
cannot consider our interests as served.We cannot dwell in moral or
spiritual consolation alone.
We cannot contemplate living forever under hetro rule.Sooner or later
in history,secession from the hets will have to be contemplated.
None of the existing states were there when homosexuality appeared
among humans.None of these passing entities will likely outlive us as
a cultural group.We are right as a culture and as a collectivity
against any decaying state structure whose demise we would eventually
take advantage to set up our own independent republic.
In the course of such a process,no element of the het breeding pattern
or social and family structure would of course be retained.We would not
return to the past or dwell in its imitation.We would not settle for an
heterosexual future.We would,pursuing a general goal of self-
determination,invent a future of our own tailored to our needs and
in accordance with our earthly interests.
We do not need heterosexuality to go on existing.
We could get all or most of our human replacements through immigration
if only we had an independent state of our own to greet and gather the
advanced and progressive elements of our people and be rid of the
reactionnary ones.
Only in such a state could we also enjoy enough political freedom of
action to set up our own breeding and education facilities,based on
modern reproductive technology and progressive collective methods of
rearing.Only in such a state,our youth could rest at last.
Only in such a state,could we exist and thrive,and not merely survive
and start all over again at each generation.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Magenta
kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>We must fear those who expound theories about a gay gene.For in the
>current circumstances,they express more an implicit desire to remove
>that gene than to tamper in any manner with some other "natural" or
>"superior" het gene.Who indeed would be allowed to tamper with a het
>gene if such gene existed and if the technology existed to remove it ?
There is never anything to fear from the truth. First, homosexuality
is not determined by a single gene, but more likely than not by a
combination of genes. Second, we do not have the technology to modify
or remove genes, yet. Third, by the time we have the technology to
modify the genetic code, what sex someone is attracted to would be a
non-issue. If you are afraid of the orientation equivalent of "ethnic
cleansing", forget about it. It just can't happen.
>We must be concerned by right-wing fundamentalists seeking our
>conversion to heterosexuality.Because in the current situation,
>homosexuality depends exclusively upon the adhesion of individuals
>who are supported by no social or state organisation worthy of that
>name,and who are at the same time faced with various assimilationist
>and conservative trends among us.
No, our homosexuality does not depend on any kind of group dynamic, it
is just a fact of life- it just plain IS. People would not stop being
tall if there were no tall people's clubs, or if all of the short
people were out to get them. Being tall just IS, and being gay just
IS.
>Our difficulties with hets are historical as well as political.
>They have originated in a het social and state structure which
>renders irrelevant the good or the bad intentions or deeds of het
>individuals towards us.These difficulties are beyong any intervention
>confined to the realm of personal relations.
"renders irrelevant the good or the bad intentions or deeds of het
individuals towards us"? So to you, there are no good "hets"? If
someone is a "het" they are evil beasts just because they are "hets"?
That is sick.
>They are also beyong any social intervention which would leave
>untouched the hetro monopoly on future embodied in hetro copyright
>on reproductive techniques and exclusive property and authority over
>mandkind`s offspring.
Sweetie, a copyright does not signify a sexual orientation. Lesbians
do get artificially inseminated and gays do hire surrogates.
>As things stand,the future is determined solely by the het breeders
>and owners of this hetro circus,and by none of the political puppets
>or clowns speaking in their name.
This division exists in your mind and your mind alone. Gays exist at
every level of society just like straights do, there are plenty of gay
"circus owners", "clowns", and "puppets". THere is NO "het" society or
"gay" society, there is only ONE society, and we are all a part of it.
Separatism on ANY criteria only takes an existing problem and makes it
worse.
>We cannot contemplate living forever under hetro rule.Sooner or later
>in history,secession from the hets will have to be contemplated.
>[snip description of a gay utopia]
>Only in such a state,could we exist and thrive,and not merely survive
>and start all over again at each generation.
So tell me something- in your concept, after the world is separated
hets on one side and straights on the other, what next? Do you think
all of the black hets will get along with the white hets? Should they
separate as well? How about the black gays and the white gays? Another
line in the sand. How about gays and lesbians? How about jews,
gentiles, buddhists, islamic? How many little separatist isolated
nation-states would you like to create?
If you have a cut on your leg, the solution is not to make the cut
bigger, or to chop off your leg. The solution is to HEAL the cut, and
create a whole, healthy, unified being.
We need education and information to bridge these differences between
the many diverse classifications of humanity, NOT to separate humanity
by these arbitrary classifications.
--
+----- Peace & Love, ----+- Magenta (dash) 7 (at) JUNO (dot) com ----+
| /| /| _ _ _ _-|-_ |"There are more things in heaven and earth,|
| / |/ |(_|(_|(/_| )|(_| |...Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." |
|_________ _/ __________|_________________--[Hamlet Act I: Scene V]_|
kin...@abacom.com
On january 1,1998,Magenta wrote:
>So to you,there are not good "hets" ?
In the area I live (Quebec,Canada),hets are fine and
decent people much less given to homophobia than in some
other parts of the north american continent.I never had
any trouble so long as I dealt with them exclusively as
individuals.Unfortunately,I only know too well how gays
are treated in some other countries.
There are good and bad hets,but this is not relevant when
we have to deal with their social or state organisation.
This world is anti-gay and het supremacist whatever
individuals say or do.
>...a copyright [on reproduction techniques] does not
>signify a sexual orientation.Lesbians do get artificially
>inseminated and gays do hire surrogates.
I presume that the above mentionned and alledged gay
parents all have the proper documents establishing that
they did not acquired their offspring the old fashion
hetro way.Because in a process of gay self-determination,
insemination protocols of a fertility clinic or adoption
papers will be asked for in *all* such cases.Undocumented
parenthood shall be considered as hetro parenthood.
It is fine that gays and lesbians try to get access to
reproduction and to master modern reproductive techniques
for some altruistic and collective purpose.I see no point
however in mimicking the egoistic breeding pattern of
hets.
For the time being,there are plenty of gay youngsters
ousted from their hetro families and to be taken care of
both materialy and spiritually,and therefore no point in
having kids.Rearing future hets and potential ennemies of
our own kind besides makes no sense.
>...there is only one society,and we are all part of it.
Society is a concept similar to god.It does not really
exist.If it does,it is largely impotent,especially in
these times of triumphing neo-liberalism and dismantling
of social services.Where was society in the rwandan
genocide of 1994 or in the bosnian civil war of 1992-1996 ?
>...[some comments and questions about race and religion]...
Having been reared in a multicultural environment and being
a polyglot,I identify with no race and could not care less
about ethnic or racial differences or issues.
I care even less,as an atheist,about religious ones.
>If you have a cut on your leg,the solution is not to make
>the cut bigger,or to chop off your leg.The solution is
>to HEAL the cut,and create a whole,healthy,unified being.
If you have gangrene,and neo-nazism and right-wing
extremism which proliferate in our midst are similar to
gangrene,you must chop off the leg even if it hurts.The
point then is not any more to save the leg.The body,must
it be explained to you,cannot coexist for very long with
gangrene.The idea of remaining in the same country as some
fascist or neo-nazi pestilence cannot constitute a serious
proposition,even only from a progressive and consequent point
of view.
Magenta
kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>On january 1,1998,Magenta wrote:
>
>>So to you,there are not good "hets" ?
>
>In the area I live (Quebec,Canada),hets are fine and
>decent people much less given to homophobia than in some
>other parts of the north american continent.I never had
>any trouble so long as I dealt with them exclusively as
>individuals.Unfortunately,I only know too well how gays
>are treated in some other countries.
>There are good and bad hets,but this is not relevant when
>we have to deal with their social or state organisation.
>This world is anti-gay and het supremacist whatever
>individuals say or do.
And your solution to this problem is to separate off from society and
create a gay-specific culture? That makes no sense whatsoever. That
does not solve the problem, it makes it worse. As has been stated in
this newsgroup repeatedly, the single factor that makes heterosexuals
more tolerant and open minded is getting to KNOW gays. If gays are
isolationist that just worsens the problem- instead of being thought
of as their brothers and sisters, we will be those queer folk over
*THERE*.
>>...a copyright [on reproduction techniques] does not
>>signify a sexual orientation.Lesbians do get artificially
>>inseminated and gays do hire surrogates.
>
>I presume that the above mentionned and alledged gay
>parents all have the proper documents establishing that
>they did not acquired their offspring the old fashion
>hetro way.Because in a process of gay self-determination,
>insemination protocols of a fertility clinic or adoption
>papers will be asked for in *all* such cases.Undocumented
>parenthood shall be considered as hetro parenthood.
What on earth are you talking about "shall be considered"?
>It is fine that gays and lesbians try to get access to
>reproduction and to master modern reproductive techniques
>for some altruistic and collective purpose.I see no point
>however in mimicking the egoistic breeding pattern of
>hets.
>>...[some comments and questions about race and religion]...
>
>Having been reared in a multicultural environment and being
>a polyglot,I identify with no race and could not care less
>about ethnic or racial differences or issues.
>I care even less,as an atheist,about religious ones.
I did not ask you if you were racist or believed in religious
discrimination. What I asked is if you are going to divide society on
the line of sexuality, why not on any other line? What is to prevent
these other separations from occurring? Do you think a society of both
gays AND lesbians will be automatically harmonious, and there will be
no divisions on those lines?
Here is what I wrote, read it again:
"So tell me something- in your concept, after the world is separated
hets on one side and straights on the other, what next? Do you think
all of the black hets will get along with the white hets? Should they
separate as well? How about the black gays and the white gays? Another
line in the sand. How about gays and lesbians? How about jews,
gentiles, buddhists, islamic? How many little separatist isolated
nation-states would you like to create?"
The POINT is that humanity is diverse. Sexuality is a component of
that diversity, just like race, religion, sex, height, weight, and
assorted other components. It does NO good- I repeat NO good- to
divide humanity by ANY of those criteria. We need education and
information to bridge these differences between the many diverse
classifications of humanity, NOT to separate humanity by these
arbitrary classifications.
>>If you have a cut on your leg,the solution is not to make
>>the cut bigger,or to chop off your leg.The solution is
>>to HEAL the cut,and create a whole,healthy,unified being.
>
>If you have gangrene,and neo-nazism and right-wing
>extremism which proliferate in our midst are similar to
>gangrene,you must chop off the leg even if it hurts.The
>point then is not any more to save the leg.The body,must
>it be explained to you,cannot coexist for very long with
>gangrene.The idea of remaining in the same country as some
>fascist or neo-nazi pestilence cannot constitute a serious
>proposition,even only from a progressive and consequent point
>of view.
If you equate "neo-nazism and right-wing extremism", which are sets of
beliefs, with heterosexuality, which is an inate characteristic, then
you are no better than those neo-nazis and right-wing extremists who
you deplore. Do I want to get rid of those ignorant bigoted concepts?
YES. And the way to get rid of them is with EDUCATION, not by drawing
an arbitrary line in the sand because of someone's sexuality.
Separating yourself from heterosexuals will not separate you from
bigotry, it will still exist in the two separate worlds you create,
and it will be the basis for creating those two separate worlds.
And please tell me you are just some troll who is pulling my leg.
I would hate to think a mentality such as what you have expressed
actually exists.
Rev. Billy
lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) wrote:
>kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>>I presume that the above mentionned and alledged gay
>>parents all have the proper documents establishing that
>>they did not acquired their offspring the old fashion
>>hetro way.Because in a process of gay self-determination,
>>insemination protocols of a fertility clinic or adoption
>>papers will be asked for in *all* such cases.Undocumented
>>parenthood shall be considered as hetro parenthood.
Come on, it's a joke.. just someone paraphrasing the posts of Ian
& Nazi's.....
/grip on
Robert Schroeder
Magenta wrote:
>
> kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>
Magenta....
Just thought that I would let you know that this kingsix person is a
kook who, up until now, had been posting this stuff in soc.motss. Kinda
wish they would keep their junk over there, eh? <eg> Of course,
soc.motss is the only newsgroup that I had ever seen to flame and
threaten Rex Wockner......
Robert
Magenta
no....@my.mailbox (Rev. Billy) doth speak:
>lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) wrote:
>>kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>>>I presume that the above mentionned and alledged gay
>>>parents all have the proper documents establishing that
>>>they did not acquired their offspring the old fashion
>>>hetro way.Because in a process of gay self-determination,
>>>insemination protocols of a fertility clinic or adoption
>>>papers will be asked for in *all* such cases.Undocumented
>>>parenthood shall be considered as hetro parenthood.
>
>Come on, it's a joke.. just someone paraphrasing the posts of Ian
>& Nazi's.....
>
> /grip on
I hope so- but I have encountered people with a mindset like his
before. Straights have not cornered the market on wackos, there are a
few in our midst.
Rev. Billy
lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) wrote:
>no....@my.mailbox (Rev. Billy) doth speak:
>>& Nazi's.....
>I hope so- but I have encountered people with a mindset like his
>before. Straights have not cornered the market on wackos, there are a
>few in our midst.
Hey, I have my adoption papers in order ;-)
JOKE !
JTEM
Robert Schroeder (mb...@swbell.net) wrote:
: Of course,
: soc.motss is the only newsgroup that I had ever seen to flame and
: threaten Rex Wockner......
Then you haven't looked very hard.
John
kin...@abacom.com
In article <68juda$8...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) wrote:
>
> kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>
> >On january 1,1998,Magenta wrote:
> >
> >>So to you,there are not good "hets" ?
> >
> >In the area I live (Quebec,Canada),hets are fine and
> >decent people much less given to homophobia than in some
> >other parts of the north american continent.I never had
> >any trouble so long as I dealt with them exclusively as
> >individuals.Unfortunately,I only know too well how gays
> >are treated in some other countries.
>
> >There are good and bad hets,but this is not relevant when
> >we have to deal with their social or state organisation.
> >This world is anti-gay and het supremacist whatever
> >individuals say or do.
>
> And your solution to this problem is to separate off from society and
> create a gay-specific culture?
The solution is not to have the het social and state organisation
on our backs one way or another.If it could be done without seceeding,
say in some anarchist utopia,fine.But I do not think it will be easy to
convince het individuals to deal with us solely as individuals
and thus to leave their oppressive social and political organisation
behind them,except as tourists,visitors or guests in a country of ours.
> As has been stated in
> this newsgroup repeatedly, the single factor that makes heterosexuals
> more tolerant and open minded is getting to KNOW gays.
This is relevant only in a handfull of affluent and liberal
countries,and only so long as these countries will remain
affluent and liberal.Perhaps you have faith in the economic
system of those rich countries.I don`t.
> I did not ask you if you were racist or believed in religious
> discrimination. What I asked is if you are going to divide society on
> the line of sexuality, why not on any other line? What is to prevent
> these other separations from occurring? Do you think a society of both
> gays AND lesbians will be automatically harmonious, and there will be
> no divisions on those lines?
The gay international community will certainly not remain united
on the issue of an eventual secession if that secession does takes
place.It will split on ideological lines and on the basis of
political trends.
A part of it,perhaps the majority,will not move to a gay independent
state and will not support it from abroad.Some sectors of the gay
community,while supporting such a state,will not move to it.And some
will move to it.Will these immigrants originating from a large
number of human cultures get along ? So long as the purpose of
homosexuality is served,I care little about the fate of individuals
or sub-groups within the gay community.You mention the relations
between gays and lesbians,which is indeed interesting.Those relations
will depend on their respective numbers,which will be ultimately
decided by individuals opting (or not opting) for immigration
to a gay independent state.Their respective bargaining power may
besides not be exactly the one you encounter in an heterosexual
culture.The only thing we know for sure is that each sex will
have an absolute veto on the reproductive activities of the
other.Without an aggreement between gays and lesbians,there will
be no reproductive activity.That may not be very important in a
state based mostly on immigration.
Magenta
kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>The solution is not to have the het social and state organisation
>on our backs one way or another.If it could be done without seceeding,
>say in some anarchist utopia,fine.But I do not think it will be easy to
>convince het individuals to deal with us solely as individuals
>and thus to leave their oppressive social and political organisation
>behind them,except as tourists,visitors or guests in a country of ours.
If gays are isolationist that just worsens the problem- instead of
being thought of as their brothers and sisters, we will be those queer
folk over *THERE*.
The POINT is that humanity is diverse. Sexuality is a component of
that diversity, just like race, religion, sex, height, weight, and
assorted other components. It does NO good- I repeat NO good- to
divide humanity by ANY of those criteria. We need education and
information to bridge these differences between the many diverse
classifications of humanity, NOT to separate humanity by these
arbitrary classifications.
If you equate "neo-nazism and right-wing extremism", which are sets of
beliefs, with heterosexuality, which is an inate characteristic, then
you are no better than those neo-nazis and right-wing extremists who
you deplore. Do I want to get rid of those ignorant bigoted concepts?
YES. And the way to get rid of them is with EDUCATION, not by drawing
an arbitrary line in the sand because of someone's sexuality.
Separating yourself from heterosexuals will not separate you from
bigotry, it will still exist in the two separate worlds you create,
and it will be the basis for creating those two separate worlds.
Well, you have demonstrated you are not just some troll who is pulling
my leg. You really are a kook. As if anyone who is NOT a kook ever
uses the word "manifesto".
kin...@abacom.com
> If you equate "neo-nazism and right-wing extremism", which are sets of
> beliefs, with heterosexuality, which is an inate characteristic, then
> you are no better than those neo-nazis and right-wing extremists who
> you deplore. Do I want to get rid of those ignorant bigoted concepts?
> YES. And the way to get rid of them is with EDUCATION, not by drawing
> an arbitrary line in the sand because of someone's sexuality.
The knowledge I have about neo-nazi leaders,groups and
activities unfortunately does not allow me to share your
optimism.
The membership of neo-nazi groups,especially skinhead
ones,indicates that they have secured an influence over
a part of the youth,which they seem to attract in
economically depressed areas or times.
The historical precedent of nazi Germany reminds us that
neo-nazism will not gain momentum only so long as there
will be no major economic crisis.If you think that such
a crisis cannot occur,then you are like the passengers
of the Titanic who believed that doomed ship to be
unsinkable.May history have mercy on all believers in
neo-liberal casino economics like you.
A neo-nazi cannot be educated any more than a gorilla can
earn a university degree.
Het cultures on another hand will allow no decisive social
intervention against parents,whose incompetence or mindset
expose youngsters to bigotted ideas or political influences.
It is fine to advocate education as a mean of change or of
prevention.But it is not much worth if you are not the
person holding authority over the youngsters whom you
want to protect against,say,religious fundamentalism.You
could have done nothing against Fred Phelps while he was
poisonning the mind of his now bigotted offspring.
Het breeders made this world,not us gays.If something goes
wrong with the humans they`ve produced and over whom
they`ve held authority,then they must be held fully
accountable.It is not for us gays to share in a
responsibility which obviously does not belong to us.
Our first responsibility is to save ourselves,the ones we
love and the human interests we represent,in association
with progressive minded people if possible,alone and in an
unilateral manner if necessary.
Diedrich G. Kohl
On Sat 1998/01/03 06:06:02 GMT, in <68kkga$a18$1...@ambach.macc.wisc.edu>
Jess Anderson <ande...@ambach.macc.wisc.edu> wrote:
> Robert Schroeder <mb...@swbell.net> wrote:
>> soc.motss is the only newsgroup that I had ever seen to flame and
>> threaten Rex Wockner......
> Unless I'm confused, Rex has been flamed there for quoting motssers
> without attribution, permission, or compensation, which some think
> is theft of intellectual property, the more so as he's supposedly
> a professional.
I presume you're referring to those periodic "seen on the Net"
types of quotes he includes in his "Quote/Unquote" column (or
whatever it's called)?
Does he receive any compensation for his columns? Obviously not
from Usenet Inc. (nobody has ever sent me a bill, anyway!), but
ISTM I've seen copies in gay papers. (I could be wrong, or it
could be that the paper got it from the Net.)
In any case, I guess the question arises as to what constitutes
"fair use" in quoting publicly made statements. (And I doubt if
there's any legal distinction depending on how famous one is; the
rule is probably the same for Ellen D. and Ellen E.)
--Rick
kin...@abacom.com
On january 2,1998,Magenta asked:
>What on earth are you talking about "shall be considered"
>[as hetro parenthood] ?
[Context:I had written that undocumented parenthood shall
be considered as hetro parenthood,to which Magenta answered
with the above question]
In the course of a process of gay self-determination,people
who have compromised culturally with the hetro regime must
expect to see their gayness questionned.
I am not talking here of the few heterosexual experiences
one may have had with the opposite sex at 16 or 17,but of
any kind of commitment with heterosexuality and at the
expense of homosexuality at adult age.
Parenthood is one such commitment.
It excludes the possibility of homosexuality in 90% of
the offspring,as no real freedom of choice exists with
respect to sexual orientation under the current
situation and for those 90%.
The least we can say about alledged gay parents is that
they were not thinking of the future of their relations
with us when they got into the obviously hetro business of
parenthood and of perpetuation of het supremacy.They were
thinking only of their little insignificant selves,which
lead them into some quite egoistic undertakings.
Of course,one can jump to the defense of the family unit
and lifestyle,thus joining forces with the cultural and
political far right.But pressing that point among gays
may not necessarily prove very popular or draw much
sympathy on the long term.
Christopher W. Chase
Robert Schroeder <mb...@swbell.net> wrote in article
<34ADC4...@swbell.net>...
> Of course,
> soc.motss is the only newsgroup that I had ever seen to flame and
> threaten Rex Wockner......
>
> Robert
Why? I don't understand.
What was their rationale?
--
Christopher W. Chase
heresy.at.mailexcite.com
Christopher W. Chase
Jess Anderson <ande...@ambach.macc.wisc.edu> wrote in article
<68kkga$a18$1...@ambach.macc.wisc.edu>...
RS>Of course,
> >soc.motss is the only newsgroup that I had ever seen to flame and
> >threaten Rex Wockner......
JA> Unless I'm confused, Rex has been flamed there for quoting motssers
> without attribution, permission, or compensation, which some think
> is theft of intellectual property, the more so as he's supposedly
> a professional.
I have yet to see R.W. quote anyone without attribution. The Attribution
often makes all the difference in the impact of the quote. If you
have such an example, then please post it.
Oh...and by the way...If you quote me when responding.....
please be sure to send the $500.00 royalty check for the use
of my "intellectual property" on the Usenet.
And the same goes for Arch, Bard, and Shawn Haff, the defender
of Conservative dogma, including "Intellectual Property" rights.
___________________________________________________
NOTE: All proceeds generated by responding to this post will
benefit the American Civil Liberties Union, just because it
pisses John Michadia off.
__________________________________________________
--
Christopher W. Chase
heresy.at.mailexcite.com
> Copyright 1998 Jess Anderson. All rights reserved.
> ande...@facstaff.wisc.edu, http://www.jesscc.com/
>
I got ya' royalty check right here.....
Robert Schroeder
Christopher W. Chase wrote:
>
> Robert Schroeder <mb...@swbell.net> wrote in article
> <34ADC4...@swbell.net>...
>
> > soc.motss is the only newsgroup that I had ever seen to flame and
> > threaten Rex Wockner......
> >
>
> Why? I don't understand.
>
> What was their rationale?
>
used in one of his columns. He quoted a motss'r, but did not give full
"credit", ie, use the person's name. Instead, Wockner stated that the
quote was from a posting in "soc.motss, the oldest and largest
lesbian/gay newsgroup on UseNet". According to some of the motss'rs,
they claim he stole this, that postings are theirs and are therefore
covered by the copyright law. Of course, Jess Anderson is the only
motss'r that openly claims a copyright on everyone of his postings.
That debate got nasty.
Robert
Ward Stewart
"Christopher W. Chase" <Cat...@Heresy.com> wrote:
>~Robert Schroeder <mb...@swbell.net> wrote in article
>~<34ADC4...@swbell.net>...
>~> Of course,
>~> soc.motss is the only newsgroup that I had ever seen to flame and
>~> threaten Rex Wockner......
>~>
>~> Robert
>~Why? I don't understand.
>~What was their rationale?
>~--
>~Christopher W. Chase
>~heresy.at.mailexcite.com
Ask a foolish question and you'll get a foolish answer -- my
information was that Wockner had cited something said by one of the
MOTSSERS without "permission" or adequatley citing them.
Not that he had somehow mis quoted or taken out of context but that he
had not made proper obeisance to the rubric of "intellectual
property."
The same sort of wounded vanity by silly folks that charactarizes the
present tizzy in as teacup.
ward
As you will observe above I have NOT crossposted this -- I am really
uncertain as to why not.
w
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"The default condition for a citizen in our republic is that
he is FREE to act as he will. He is NOT to be restricted by
prejudices and animosity amongst his neighbors -- if THEY
wish to restrain him from his freedom, THEY must demonstrate
the public interest in so restricting him."
Uncle Ward
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
kin...@abacom.com
Back in the times and place (a remote part of Canada) I
grew up,and while being then homosexual did not necessarily
attracted a strong and violent social repression,
homosexuality was nevertheless regarded as a disease and
equated with mental illness by everyone.
Perhaps half of those who labelled gays as nuts when I was
a kid have passed away since and now lie where in my view
they deservedly belong,gone and forgotten along with their
ideological legacy.
The concept of homosexuality as a mental disease nowadays
has no support whatsoever among gays.Most people here now
regard homosexuality as something different and perhaps
threatening,but do not equate it with lunacy as they did
a few decades ago.
More or less the same fate await those who,as I write,
dismiss gay self-determination as a logical,realistic and
legitimate goal,within the reach of an international
community counting at the lowest estimate a couple of
hundreds of millions of individuals.
Time certainly works against those who equate the idea of
a gay secession and of setting up a gay independent state
with lunacy as did adults of my childhood with respect to
homosexuality.
Those opponents will eventually die.They have no assurance
that they will be replaced.The following gay generations
may not perceive indefinitely het supremacy as a normal
thing,not to mention a bearable one.
The right choice to do therefore does not lies in the
passing individuals who think they are the center of the
universe,and who erect the mediocrity of their existences
as third class citizens of the het empire to the rank of
normality.
The right choice,based on the continuity and visible
eternity of our people and on the dynamics of life,
evolution and change,lies in the future and in collective
dignity and self-determination for our own kind.
Ezekiel Krahlin
In article <34ADC4...@swbell.net>, mb...@swbell.net wrote:
>Magenta wrote:
>>
>> kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>>
>Magenta....
>
>Just thought that I would let you know that this kingsix person is a
>kook who, up until now, had been posting this stuff in soc.motss. Kinda
>wish they would keep their junk over there, eh?
Kingsix is a pretty intelligent guy, and I don't see where he is any more a
kook than anyone else speaking for an oppressed people, who seek asylum
or secession from their persecutors. In fact, I was so impressed with
Kingsix's insight and conjectures, that I downloaded most of his articles
from his secession thread in soc.motss, and have made it available to
anyone, on my web site:
<http://ezekielk.simplenet.com/>
Just scroll down to link called "Other Voices / Other Minds", click on it, and
you wil find yourself on a new web page. Scroll down to link "Kingsix: On Gay
Secession", click on that, and you can then acquaint yourself with some of
this man's proposals and philosophy.
I even have proposed a name for our nation-to-be: Athenia.
As far as your reference to "junk": there seems to be a heck of a lot more
crappy articles in these "alt" type newsgroups, than on the "soc" ones...due
to three factions: (1) pornographers who think any newsgroup referring to
"gay", "lesbian" or "homosexual" is pornographic, and therefore fair game; (2)
gay participants who stereotype themselves as sleazy, worthless, and vulgar,
thus proving the validity of the first faction; and (3) homo-haters such as
religious bigots, who spam gay newsgroups with violent dogma because they
believe God demands they do so (at risk of burning forever in Hell).
---
Let's secede from those who breed,
Make it sin to *not waste seed!
---
My web site kicks (but never licks) butt!
http://ezekielk.simplenet.com/
mailto: ezek...@mailcity.com
Diedrich G. Kohl
On Tue 1998/01/06 09:08:46 GMT, in <34B1F4...@swbell.net>
Robert Schroeder <mb...@swbell.net> wrote:
> The worse flaming of Wockner I saw on soc.motss involved a quote that he
> used in one of his columns. He quoted a motss'r, but did not give full
> "credit", ie, use the person's name. Instead, Wockner stated that the
> quote was from a posting in "soc.motss, the oldest and largest
> lesbian/gay newsgroup on UseNet". According to some of the motss'rs,
> they claim he stole this, that postings are theirs and are therefore
> covered by the copyright law.
Surely you mean that the posting was claimed to be the property of
the author, not the property of soc.motss!!
> Of course, Jess Anderson is the only motss'r that openly claims a
> copyright on every one of his postings.
AFAIK it doesn't make any difference. The property rights to a
literary work exist anyway, and what it is or isn't valid/legal
usage of the material by someone else doesn't depend on whether
the author has explicitly included a copyright disclaimer.
--Rick
JTEM
Diedrich G. Kohl (dri...@bc.sympatico.ca) wrote:
: Robert Schroeder <mb...@swbell.net> wrote:
: > Of course, Jess Anderson is the only motss'r that openly claims a
: > copyright on every one of his postings.
:
: AFAIK it doesn't make any difference. The property rights to a
: literary work exist anyway, and what it is or isn't valid/legal
: usage of the material by someone else doesn't depend on whether
: the author has explicitly included a copyright disclaimer.
How upset do you think he'd be if I told him that Jess isn't the only one?
John
Ward Stewart
"Diedrich G. Kohl" <dri...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>~On Tue 1998/01/06 09:08:46 GMT, in <34B1F4...@swbell.net>
>~Robert Schroeder <mb...@swbell.net> wrote:
>~> The worse flaming of Wockner I saw on soc.motss involved a quote that he
>~> used in one of his columns. He quoted a motss'r, but did not give full
>~> "credit", ie, use the person's name. Instead, Wockner stated that the
>~> quote was from a posting in "soc.motss, the oldest and largest
>~> lesbian/gay newsgroup on UseNet". According to some of the motss'rs,
>~> they claim he stole this, that postings are theirs and are therefore
>~> covered by the copyright law.
>~Surely you mean that the posting was claimed to be the property of
>~the author, not the property of soc.motss!!
>~> Of course, Jess Anderson is the only motss'r that openly claims a
>~> copyright on every one of his postings.
>~AFAIK it doesn't make any difference. The property rights to a
>~literary work exist anyway, and what it is or isn't valid/legal
>~usage of the material by someone else doesn't depend on whether
>~the author has explicitly included a copyright disclaimer.
>~--Rick
Tossing such a "literary work" out into the maelstrom of the internet
would seem to me to substantially dilute the propriatary interest in
the thing.
ward
kin...@abacom.com
In article <694seb$3ck...@FXDrt2ay.bigger.net>,
GodHates...@HetBeGone.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) wrote:
> Kingsix is a pretty intelligent guy, and I don't see where he is any more a
> kook than anyone else speaking for an oppressed people, who seek asylum
> or secession from their persecutors. In fact, I was so impressed with
> Kingsix's insight and conjectures, that I downloaded most of his articles
> from his secession thread in soc.motss, and have made it available to
> anyone, on my web site:
> <http://ezekielk.simplenet.com/>
Welcome in alt.politics.homosexuality mr. Krahlin.Happy
that we meet again.Please feel at ease.I know that you
will not lecture us on the beauties of the hetro regime or
on the joys of het breeding,colonisation,occupation,
domination and oppression.
The crowd here appears to be somewhat different from the
one encountered in soc.motss.The one intelligent participant
I have noticed is Magenta,who is more articulate in his
opposition than others.
Anyway,I wanted to thank you publicly for your
participation on behalf of our collective rights in these
newsgroups,and for keeping a record of these discussions.
This could be interesting material 300 of 400 years from
now when either we will have already seceeded,or that the
idea of secession will have become a mainstream political
tendency among us.
JTEM
kin...@abacom.com wrote:
[---snip---]
"Luggage rack over the horizen," he turned. "Further near the lost space
knee-deep to the mantle."
A light burned. You've got to really watch them carefully. A bit like
toast.
"Ho hum," wrote his companion that she didn't know. "Yipee yahoo." They
both then drank the carton. It was moist, even on a Tuesday. Wow. I don't
mean that.
No, not *that*.
John
Diedrich G. Kohl
On Sat 1998/01/10 16:52:14 GMT, in <698g8n$2...@nuhou.aloha.net>
Ward Stewart <wste...@hi.net> wrote:
> "Diedrich G. Kohl" <dri...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>> Of course, Jess Anderson is the only motss'r that openly claims a
>>> copyright on every one of his postings.
>> AFAIK it doesn't make any difference. The property rights to a
>> literary work exist anyway, and what it is or isn't valid/legal
>> usage of the material by someone else doesn't depend on whether
>> the author has explicitly included a copyright disclaimer.
> Tossing such a "literary work" out into the maelstrom of the internet
> would seem to me to substantially dilute the propriatary interest in
> the thing.
I would agree that it does raise that question. I don't know what
the legal aspects of this would be or if any precedents have been
established, but it does indeed seem a grey area.
My only point was that, one way or the other, whatever the
"proprietary interest in the thing" might actually be, I don't
think it depends on whether a copyright was attached.
Presumably this is the debate that went round and round in
soc.motss at the time.
--Rick
kin...@abacom.com
On this earth,we will have to deal with alledged
representatives or messengers of god.We will never ever
meet god himself and in person,for the obvious and simple
reason that it does not exist.God is a philosophical
concept invented by uncivilized and primitive men of
previous generations dwelling on the fear of death.There
is no arbiter between us and this material world,except
perhaps and in retrospect history as it shall be written
in the decades and centuries to come.Let future gay
generations be our only judges.
There is no morality,but only earthly interests,and we
have such interests.Morality should not be allowed to
interfere in any way with our pursuit of two basic goals,
that is existence and continuity as gays.
There are such interests as family life and social
structures.But these are not our interests.These are
foreign and imperialist hetro interests,whatever the
label under which or by whom they are presented to us.At
best,we ow little and more probably nothing at all to the
titulars of such interests,as they played no role in the
genesis of our homosexuality.We alone discovered that our
own sex was attractive,and it is thanks to no one else
that we have maintained and affirmed that attraction.
There are such groups as ethnic,racial or national ones,
or countries in which we originated.But these are neither
our groups nor our countries.These are entities whose
origins,continuity and existence are rooted in the hetro
breeding pattern,and thus entirely foreign to us.We would
be better off considering ourselves for the time being as
without a national identity and stateless,untill the
fatefull day we will have an independent state of our own.
There is the hetro breeding pattern.Some among us,not
necessarily those with the highest IQ,still believe that
without heterosexuality,mankind could not go on existing.
But technically speaking,mankind never ever needed
heterosexuality to mix sperm and eggs,an operation which
could as well take place through artificial insemination
only.Other reproductive technologies,even more modern than
artificial insemination,besides render the hetro breeding
pattern already obsolete.
There is the perspective of conflict with concrete hetro
interests,and we will have such a conflict wether we submit
to hetro domination or resist it.If suffering is unevitable,
then better suffer for something,like for example self-
determination.
Magenta
kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>Welcome in alt.politics.homosexuality mr. Krahlin.Happy
>that we meet again.Please feel at ease.I know that you
>will not lecture us on the beauties of the hetro regime or
>on the joys of het breeding,colonisation,occupation,
>domination and oppression.
Of course not- you are doing that just fine. This feeling of yours
that there is such a "hetro regime" speaks as loudly about your
insecurities as when the homophobes yell "Gay Agenda". It seems to
make some people feel all warm and cozy by believing there is some
huge evil plot out to get them, instead of having to deal with the
realities of living in a world composed of numerous diverse
independent people all trying to muddle through their lives the best
way they know how.
>The crowd here appears to be somewhat different from the
>one encountered in soc.motss.The one intelligent participant
>I have noticed is Magenta,who is more articulate in his
>opposition than others.
Thank you for the complement, but I still think you are a loony.
>This could be interesting material 300 of 400 years from
>now when either we will have already seceeded,or that the
>idea of secession will have become a mainstream political
>tendency among us.
As I have stated to you before, this line you draw in the sand over
sexuality is no better than the lines drawn in the sand over race or
religion- they act to divide humanity instead of unifying it, they act
to create hostilities by making an insignificant difference between
people into something big enough to define a nation.
Not only that, the line of sexuality is even far less functional then
those other lines. At least black folk are born to black folk, and
white folk are born to white folk. As gays, we are born to straights.
As a mater of fact, your concept is not just simply as bad as white
separatists like Ian, it is far worse. Just think of the havoc a
concept like yours would cause. You have already admitted this gay
nation-state would primarily survive through immigration, correct? So
these gay children would be born and raised in a heterosexual-only
world, part of a heterosexual-only culture. If you think gays suffer
from low self esteem and high suicide rates now, just imagine what
they would be in this world you would create.
Those gay children would grow up in a straight world with no
recognition for what it is to be gay- they would be taught gays are
those sick and depraved people who live in that country over *there*,
far, far, away from their family, friends, and the only culture they
have ever known. They would learn that if mommy and daddy's precious
child were to turn out to be like one of *those people*, they must
move to that land of Sodom and sever all ties.
--
+----- Peace & Love, ----+------- Magenta77 (at) AOL (dot) com ------+
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:01:19 -0600, kin...@abacom.com said:
>Welcome in alt.politics.homosexuality mr. Krahlin.Happy
>that we meet again.
Likewise, my compatriot from the Land of Snow and Northern Lights
across the border.
>Please feel at ease.
You make that easy.
>I know that you
>will not lecture us on the beauties of the hetro regime or
>on the joys of het breeding,colonisation,occupation,
>domination and oppression.
I will do my best not to...as difficult as that may be. ;-)
>The crowd here appears to be somewhat different from the
>one encountered in soc.motss.
That won't last for long, I'm afraid. As soon as one screaming
banshee from soc.motss discovers us here, the rest will quickly flock
like vultures. Unfortunately (for them) *they will be the ones who
turn to bone before we ever do...from pecking incessantly at their own
kind!
>The one intelligent participant I have noticed is Magenta,
Still not saying much, in my opinion...but relative to what we
witnessed in soc.motss, he is indeed intelligent.
>who is more articulate in his opposition than others.
I'd say the word "noisy" is more apt than "articulate". (How did you
manage to type out that last sentence, without breaking out into
horrendous laughter and rolling on the floor?)
>Anyway,I wanted to thank you publicly for your
>participation on behalf of our collective rights in these
>newsgroups,and for keeping a record of these discussions.
It's the least I could do. Having just re-read that thread, I'd say
there are many important concepts you brought up, that deserve
preservation for all future netizens to read. To anyone just
discovering Kingsix in this newsgroup: You may read his intriguing
articles from the soc.motss thread, at:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/7408/kingsix.htm
>This could be interesting material 300 of 400 years from
>now when either we will have already seceeded,or that the
>idea of secession will have become a mainstream political
>tendency among us.
By then, my web site should be pretty extensive, filled with Kingsix
literature no doubt...and I should be well preserved (for my age).
Ezekiel Krahlin
In article <68gt6p$6...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) wrote:
> There is never anything to fear from the truth.
A hollow adage, if anything. Not worth debating.
> First, homosexuality
> is not determined by a single gene, but more likely than not by a
> combination of genes.
The data has yet to come in. Try not to jump the gun on this issue.
Rest assured, that any society which bases its existance on
heterosexual superiority (as does the United States, most of Latin
America, the entire Muslim empire, and China), they will quickly seek
to eradicate all homosexual tendencies through genetic
manipulation...as well as through all other possible means. I hardly
think that, once only heteros exist...there will be anyone eager to
cry out for bringing back homosexuals, in order to win their rights.
My faith in heteros is nil.
> Second, we do not have the technology to modify
> or remove genes, yet.
Yes we do...as evidenced by the recent sheep clone from Scotland...and
by our latest mad scientist, Dr. Seed, who endeavors to clone the
first human within two years.
> Third, by the time we have the technology to
> modify the genetic code, what sex someone is attracted to would be a
> non-issue.
Seems like, in less than a decade from now, this genetic manipulation
technology will be commonplace...especially as regards human
engineering. Why on earth do you think sexual attraction will no
longer be an issue by then? Or even in a future more distant?
Homophobia, being the majority attitude across the world as it now
stands...holds a high chance of persisting for at least several more
centuries. I do have my hopes, though, for a more rapid change.
(Listening to your drivel, unfortunately imbues a more pessimistic
outlook.)
> If you are afraid of the orientation equivalent of "ethnic cleansing", forget about it.
> It just can't happen.
Consider the medical neglect our society imposes upon thousands of gay
AIDS sufferers...and how many have already died as a result, since the
inception of AIDS. If this isn't a form of ethnic cleansing, then
Hitler is Santa Claus. Ethnic cleansing in my country (USA) of gay
people *is happening, and *has been happening ever since the
homophobic society of Amerika was formed. Neglect of caring for gay
people with AIDS is just the latest twist on an old prejudice. Gay
hatred is so ingrained and accepted, that we forget how bigoted and
all- pervasive is our heterocentric dogma. We forget that imprisoned
gays were never liberated from the German concentration
camps...instead, returned to their homelands where they were
immediately sent to prison for the so-called crime of being
homosexual. (Our holocaust never ended.) We forget that gays were the
very *first victims of Nazi hatred...and then later, the handicapped,
the Jews, Gypsies, and others. We forget that Jewish recognition of
gays in concentration camps is only quite recent, and only among their
most progressive camps...yet even those (progressives) bury the fact
that gays were the first persecuted. We forget that--unlike the
American Medical Association--the World Heath Organization still
officially regards homosexaulity as a mental illness.
As gay people, we are constantly being ethnically cleansed...it's not
a question of whether or not ethnic cleansing could happen...it *is
happening...and has been a consistant aspect of gay existence for
centuries.
I wonder: Where on earth do you conjure up your Dr. Feelgood
prognoses? Astrology charts, Tarot cards, tea leaf reading, or
stirring up squirrel feces with a yarrow twig?
> No, our homosexuality does not depend on any kind of group dynamic, it
> is just a fact of life- it just plain IS. People would not stop being
> tall if there were no tall people's clubs, or if all of the short
> people were out to get them. Being tall just IS, and being gay just
> IS.
Helloooh! Anybody home? Tall people are not being singled out by any
group hatred that I know of. Gay people are...even by their own blood
families. Of course, on the surface level you are quite correct. You
could also say being a Native American just IS, being born to Jewish
people just IS, being African-American just IS. But these people are
also vicitims of very severe prejudices and hatred. Just because
something "IS" has no bearing on whether or not there is prejudice
going on.
The group dynamic, however, is the issue...since the dynamics of a
heterocentric society includes virulent homophobia (but not tall
people). I assure you, though, if there ever came a dynamic of abuse
against tall people, there would certainly be a serious need for tall
people to fight back.
Group dynamics can turn something that simply IS, into something that
is deemed deserving of hatred and violence. But then again,
homophobia just IS, and there's nothing that we could, or should, do
about it. At least, by your kind of reasoning, Magenta, one would have
to make such a conclusion.
It is therefore imperative of any oppressed minority, to utilize a
group dynamic of its own, in order to resist persecution.
> "renders irrelevant the good or the bad intentions or deeds of het
> individuals towards us"? So to you, there are no good "hets"? If
> someone is a "het" they are evil beasts just because they are "hets"?
> That is sick.
Heterosexuality as practised in the U.S. and most other nations, is
indeed a perversion...and which some have correctly termed
"heterocentrism"...which is the perception (put into practice) that
heterosexuality is so superior and Godly-righteous, as to justify
eradication of all other sexual inclinations...particularly,
homosexuality. The good intentions of hets towards queers are indeed
irrelevant, in the same way that good intentions of kindly plantation
owners towards their slaves were also irrelevant. Meaning: slavery
still existed, regardless. In this issue, homophobia still thrives,
regardless.
> Sweetie, a copyright does not signify a sexual orientation. Lesbians
> do get artificially inseminated and gays do hire surrogates.
Perhaps "patent" would be the better word to use here. Kingsix is
addressing the issue of genetic engineering...a technology which is
rapidly entering the arena of every-day reality...and which should
concern gay people everywhere.
So sweetie, if we do not fight vigilantly against society's persistant
homophobia, copyrights (or patents) *will signify sexual
orientation...and *outlaw homosexual genetic influences, even if
originally placed there by mother nature.
The fact that some lesbians and some gay men do create offspring in
non-heteroconventional ways, does very little on behalf of gay rights.
Considering how many *more heteros do the same thing...and considering
that the majority of gays do *not choose to mimic or idolize the
nuclear heterocentric family.
> This division exists in your mind and your mind alone. Gays exist at
> every level of society just like straights do, there are plenty of gay
> "circus owners", "clowns", and "puppets". THere is NO "het" society or
> "gay" society, there is only ONE society, and we are all a part of it.
You are just so wrong about this, sweetie-pie. Our societies as we
know them today, are *all heterocentic...to an extreme in the majority
of cases. And gays pay the price very dearly: in blood and tears,
literally. Gays usually get to high positions by remaining in the
closet, and/or playing out heterosexist roles. There is definitely a
glass ceiling for the majority of gays...which ceiling is also barely
high enough for anyone to stand up.
> Separatism on ANY criteria only takes an existing problem and makes it
> worse.
Nonsense. Many nations were born of separating from a
majority...including these United States of AmeriKKKa. Jews separated
from Europe, to form the nation of Israel. Many people around the
world believe this was the right and decent thing to do. There are
many other examples of why separatism was the only, if not the best,
answer, to a people's survival.
Persecution against gays has gone on for so many centuries, as to
surpass the history of bigotry against most other minorities that have
already justifiably, seceded to form their own nation, state, or zone
of asylum. On record of persecution alone, gays are way overqualified
to justify a secession from the heterocentric majority.
> So tell me something- in your concept, after the world is separated
> hets on one side and straights on the other, what next? Do you think
> all of the black hets will get along with the white hets? Should they
> separate as well? How about the black gays and the white gays? Another
> line in the sand. How about gays and lesbians? How about jews,
> gentiles, buddhists, islamic? How many little separatist isolated
> nation-states would you like to create?
I think your own internalized homophobia causes you to perceive gays
as incapable of any serious actions. As if only heteros were.
Instead of regarding gay secession as an understandable desire (if not
a realistic one), you immediately brush off any notion of gays doing
so. Yet I doubt you would consider the Kurds, Native Americans,
Laplanders, Aborigines, and other persecuted minorities, as not worthy
of running their own nation. Why don't you think gay people should be
given a shot at it too? Why do you think gays are *less capable of
doing so, than these other (heterocentric) groups? Are you sure
you're not stereotyping gays as being too silly, too inhuman, too
inferior to pull off such an achievement? Are you sure your internal
homophobia is not doing the speaking for you?
Surely, heterocentric societies own all the world...what harm would it
do them to give us a small piece of land (say, the size of Korea,
Holland, or Costa Rica), to fulfill our own potential as a people?
Gay-identified people such as yourself, who *don't want to
participate, have everywhere else to go, anyway. We, of this new
nation, could get along fine without your type! (Actually, *better.)
> We need education and information to bridge these differences between
> the many diverse classifications of humanity, NOT to separate humanity
> by these arbitrary classifications.
The education has all been done, many times over...enough to beat dead
horses from here to eternity. More education will have no further
effects...we've gone as far as we'll ever go, through education. If
*anyone needs more education, it's our own gay brethren!
I believe the only way gays will win their rights, is ZERO tolerance
of homophobia. Whenever someone harasses gay people, don't be lax in
punishing them. Lock 'em up, throw away the key for a good, long
time. *That is the only kind of education homophobes respect. We do
this to those who harass other types of minorities, yet we still
encourage homophobic activities...no thanks to our President's "Don't
Ask Don't Tell" and "DOMA" policies. Since our society continues to
drag its feet on this issue, I say we'd have a better chance of living
decent, unpersecuted lives, if we formed our own nation. This may be
achievable sooner than the goal of zero tolerance in a heterocentric
society.
Then again: why am I even bothering to argue with you? Isn't your
contrived name of "Magenta" a proclamation that you are a frivolous
person with nothing to offer in any serious undertaking? (Perhaps even
a willfull stereotype of a certain kind of gay cliche...not unlike a
black person of yesteryear, bowing and scraping before "Dee Massuh"?)
Ezekiel Krahlin
> There is never anything to fear from the truth.
So here's a little more truth for ya, Mag:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Permission granted by author for anyone to distribute this
writing free of charge (including translation into any
language)...under condition that it remain intact and
complete, including title and credit to the original author:
Ezekiel J. Krahlin.
ezek...@iname.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
NEW DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
copyright 1998 by Ezekiel J. Krahlin
(Jehovah's Queer Witness)
I hereby declare war against the United States
Government, and to all its people who support the federal
sanction against same-sex marriage... which may be a majority.
The moment government permits any state to officially and
intentionally deny a gay citizen's right to the pursuit of
happiness--as indeed marriage is a blissful goal--the door is
open to establishing all homophile women and men as second
class citizens in perpetuity.
I perceive this unconstitutional, ungodly sanction as the
first step towards eradicating all known homosexuals in our
sorry nation. The bombing of the Lesbian lounge in Atlanta is
just the beginning...unless the federal government and
mainstream Christian churches--including African-American
congregations--immediately step in and aggressively fight back
against the jihad these homophobes have declared. (I'm not
holding my breath.) Their continued silence and foot-dragging
on the noble issue of same-sex-lover rights, puts blood on
their hands as surely as if they were right-wing fanatics
themselves!
I urge all lesbians, gays, bisexuals, gender changers,
their supporters, and other so-called queer types to bear arms
and take to the streets...and push back the beast of
homophobia that now rears its ugly head in the eyes of the
majority, who prowl this gutted country like ghouls from The
Night Of The Living Dead. For all intent purposes, President
Clinton has nodded his head in approval of a nationwide witch
hunt to kill us anywhere and everywhere we are seen or known
to abide...or at best to deny us jobs, shelter, friendship,
and equal treatment. Our President's wavering on the "gays in
the military" issue, along with the signing of DOMA...places
him in direct responsibility for exacerbating the hostility
against a basically harmless, and decent, group of citizens:
gay women and men.
Likewise for our so-called "liberal" straight
friends...who are too cowardly to display a pink triangle on
their own clothing, or a T-shirt or bumper sticker
proclaiming: "Another Hetero for Lesbian & Gay Rights". Yet
they proudly wear slogans and icons promoting the rights of
African-Americans, women, children, trees, animals, and so on.
The Danes in World War II sported stars of David to conceal
Jewish folk from Nazis...but I hear of none who displayed the
pink triangle.
If you are heterosexual, and perceive yourself as a true
"progressive", then you would have no qualms in taking up this
noble banner of Homophile Liberation in the ways I have
suggested...else you, too, have blood on your hands. But if
heteros at large still refuse to see this as their fight,
too...we homosexuals can flood the straight bars, clubs, and
other hetero hangouts. Our presence, with pink triangles
emblazoned on our shirts and jackets, will turn these straight
clubs into targets of the Army of God and their ilk. Then, of
course, we'll have a lot more allies in the resistance--albeit
unwilling.
Be it known that I am proudly homosexual, that I am a
Christian who respects all other beliefs as equal, that I
presently go by the name Ezekiel Krahlin (formerly Gene
Catalano). Be it also known that I propose the new label
"Thracian" over "gay male," to symbolize the new-found
empowerment of the homophile community in this century's
closing decade. The word "gay" perpetuates a stereotype of
ourselves as flighty, emotional, and frivolous...not to be
taken seriously, as a citizen, as a human being, or as
anything else! (Surely, women have a similar complaint
against male chauvanists.)
"Lesbian" is a beautiful term for the homosexual female;
as its name comes from a Greek Island with a rich, classical
history. The region of Thrace also has a great history, and
likewise plays an honored role in Hellenic culture...hence I
coin the term "Thracian" for those who are commonly thought of
as "gay male". Ancient Greeks first called their northern
neighbors "Thracians," and later, "Macedonians"...the people
from whom arose Alexander The Great. "Hellenic" can be the
general term for both homophile women and men, who are sick of
the belittling and ineffectual descriptor, "gay". This caps a
nice balance on the other two Greek words, to form an elegant
triad: Hellenic, Lesbian, Thracian. It also does away with
the chauvanistic stance of using "Gay" to represent both male
and female members, as well as males only. (Credit for the
idea of "Hellenic" to replace "Gay" goes to Fireweaver, an
internet friend.)
Heterosexism, chauvinism, misogyny, mysandry, homophobia,
pedophilia, racism, and bestiality are all blasphemies in
God's eyes, and in mine, and in the eyes of all good people.
Under this inspiration, I declare Northern California a safe haven,
and demand protection by the United Nations Global Peacekeepers.
I also call for the secession of this region, and its establishment as
a
government solely for and by Hellenes...where all beliefs are to be
equally
respected. Let this new nation be named "Athenia," to honor woman's
suffrage as well as symbolize wisdom and valor. As a body politik, we
are
as the victorious David against Goliath: the giant of homophobia shall
be
toppled and slain in our time.
Let it also be known that not every gay person is a
friend. Like any group of human beings, they have their ranks
of evil forces. True hearts are few and far between...love
and be constant to such friends--if indeed you have even
one--for you are well blessed. For wherever there are two
kindred hearts, there Your Angel will be also, in spirit. Do
not judge any person by any category (such as gay or hetero,
Jew or Christian, ugly or handsome, poor or rich, white or
black, etc.) But do judge her by what comes from the heart, as
expressed in words and deeds.
Civilization (for what it's worth) is about to go
berserk; the capitalist world as we know it is doomed. I
trust that those whom I can reach through this letter, already
are taking action. If you are wicked (homophobic), it is not
yet too late to change. I stand by you in prayer, and hope
you will join the valorous. For until the last enemy is fallen, it
is my duty to fight for every lost soul until the final moment.
Yes, I pray most ardently for the lost, not for the risen.
In closing, I humbly attempt to give solace to my
Hellenic sisters and brothers, with this quote from Psalm 35
(1-8):
Plead my cause, O Lord, with those who strive with me;
Fight against those who fight against me.
Take hold of shield and buckler,
And stand up for my help.
Also draw out the spear,
And stop those who pursue me.
Say to my soul,
"I am your salvation."
Let those be put to shame and brought to dishonor
Who seek after my life;
Let those be turned back and brought to confusion
Who plot my hurt.
Let them be like chaff before the wind,
And let the angel of the Lord pursue them.
For without cause they have hidden their net for me in
a pit,
Which they have dug without cause for my life.
Let destruction come upon him unexpectedly,
And let his net that he has hidden catch himself;
Into that very destruction let him fall.
-----finis
kin...@abacom.com
On january 13,1998,Magenta wrote:
>That feeling of yours that there is such a "hetro regime"
There is no doubt in my mind about the nature of a regime
which resorts to a hetro mean (het breeding pattern) to
reach a mainly hetro goal (het majority and supremacy),and
which is entirely dependent upon heterosexuality for its
continuation and existence.Such a regime is an hetro one.
>...they act to create hostilities by making an
>insignificant difference between people into something
>big enough to define a nation.
I do not think it is so much the difference between various
sexual orientations than the gay one which is insignificant
to you.
It would be indeed interesting to ear you saying hets that
their sexual orientation is insignificant,and then to
observe their reaction.
A difference in sexual orientation is of strategic
importance.It determines how humans will be conceived,by
whom and for which purpose they will be reared,and how in
the end society will look like.
>You have already admitted this gay nation-state would
>primarily survive through immigration,correct ?
In the first decades,perhaps even *exclusively* through
immigration,that is correct.
Setting up an entirely new breeding and rearing pattern
outside heterosexuality could take time materialy,not to
mention the necessary aggreements that would have to be
reached within our society.
>If you think gays suffer from low self esteem and high
>suicide rates now,just imagine what they would be in this
>world you would create
[a world where a gay independent state would exist]
The low self esteem is not difficult to detect in tour case.
Mean...implying that homosexuality is without importance..
I wonder what is the actual extent of your heterosexual
interests.
If a gay independent state existed,a certain number of gays
born and raised under het rule would decide to flee the
hetro regime.
Your problem then would consist at convincing them to
remain under het supremacy.It would not be easy to make
them believe that gays are an insignificant people,
unworthy of a dignified collective existence and not
entitled to self-determination.Many would not even listen
to you,especially the young who have absolutely no future
under hetro domination.
Their journey to our country,whatever adventures would
await them on the way,would be the saga for future gay
generations to read and study.Upon their arrival,they
would be greeted as heroes.And it is my hope that among
the banners then displayed,there would be that motto
"Never,never alone again !".In the generations to come,
they would be our historical and social role models.
>Those gay children would grow up in a straight world
>with no recognition for what it is to be gay...
You think that they enjoy such a recognition now ? What
you describe are the conditions I grew up in myself.And
comparing my fate with the one of countless others,I
consider myself very lucky.So many young gays are evicted
from their hetro and blood families throughout the world
that it would take an independent state to greet and
reunite them into peer groups.
Ezekiel Krahlin
> I did not ask you if you were racist or believed in religious
> discrimination. What I asked is if you are going to divide society on
> the line of sexuality, why not on any other line? What is to prevent
> these other separations from occurring? Do you think a society of both
> gays AND lesbians will be automatically harmonious, and there will be
> no divisions on those lines?
I believe that lesbians and gay men will build a better society, than
what already exists in a heterosexually dominant world. Your
insistance that gay culture is too divisive, is only one of
superficial--and stereotypical--attitudes.
> "So tell me something- in your concept, after the world is separated
> hets on one side and straights on the other, what next? Do you think
> all of the black hets will get along with the white hets? Should they
> separate as well? How about the black gays and the white gays? Another
> line in the sand. How about gays and lesbians? How about jews,
> gentiles, buddhists, islamic? How many little separatist isolated
> nation-states would you like to create?"
News flash: Because one group breaks off from the mainstream, does
not necessarily mean further breakdowns will ensue. Again, you have
only stereotypical renderings to your replies and weak challenges,
Maggie. Considering the terrible pressure our homophobic society
places on the gay populace at all times, it is rather amazing that we,
as gay men and women, have accomplished all that we have so
far...regarding political and social cohesiveness. A shining example
is all the support we have created for our own AIDS sufferers, while
hetero society ignored us completely. To point out only our own
divisiveness and failures--a mirror of society at large, with its
ongoing problems of racism, misogeny, etc.--is a narrow-minded,
selfish, and prejudiced attitude, that smacks of its own homophobia
(albeit internalized). I believe that, without the beastly terrors
hurled upon us by a hetero regime, we can create a nation among all
nations...that will set an example of truer democracy and egalitarian
lifestyles than ever before existed. Our own struggles for marriage
and other forms of domestic partnership, is creating a structure for
alternative family lifestyles, which (hetero) society at large is
coming to adapt. This is just another example of how gay subculture
invents solutions to certain social problems and inadequacies.
Your faith in gays as a people capable of human achievement *without
the influence of straights, is virtually zilch. One wonders how you
manage to get along with gays at all, with such an attitude.
> The POINT is that humanity is diverse. Sexuality is a component of
> that diversity, just like race, religion, sex, height, weight, and
> assorted other components.
Somehow, within this diversity, humanity has nevertheless managed to
create such reigns of terror against specific peoples, as to require
and result in, secessions, wars, and declarations of independence by
those so abused...throughout our long and sorry history. Again, your
inability to perceive a gay nation as anything more than a very
shallow, and limited society, only reflects the homophobia in your
mind, which dismisses that idea entirely.
> It does NO good- I repeat NO good- to
> divide humanity by ANY of those criteria.
Saying something over and over again, does not make it any more true.
Humanity has indeed, from time to time, divided itself by any of the
criteria you have mentioned...often to the benefit of the survival of
a people who would otherwise be annihilated, had they remained within
the majority oppressor society.
> We need education and
> information to bridge these differences between the many diverse
> classifications of humanity,
*You need education as to gay pride and self-determination!
> NOT to separate humanity by these arbitrary classifications.
Arbitrary? Considering the very real history of centuries of
oppression of gays by hetero society at large...I would hardly call a
gay person's wish to secede from said society, as an arbitrary
decision.
>If you equate "neo-nazism and right-wing extremism", which are sets of
>beliefs, with heterosexuality, which is an inate characteristic, then
>you are no better than those neo-nazis and right-wing extremists who
>you deplore.
Kingsix is *not equating fascist tendencies with heterosexuality, per
se. The term to use is "heterosexism" or "heterocentrism", meaning: a
poltical and social attitude that sees heterosexuality as so superior
and God-given, as to justify the persecution of any and all
homosexuals, whenever and wherever they be found. This is clearly
*not an innate characteristic, but a form of majority bullying a
minority.
May I also remind you, that the first group of people the original
Nazis attacked, were *homosexuals...then the handicapped, Jews,
gypsies, and numerous others. By continuing to oppress gays here in
Amerika, and in other nations...we are only feeding into the Nazi
mentality, and giving it an opening, in which to flourish once more.
This really gets me, and it happens way, way too often: gay-identified
people jumping to the defense of a heterosexist majority, as if the
*heteros were the ones being wrongly abused and misunderstood! One
wonders as to any possible hidden agenda by certain so-called gays, as
to their motives for speaking up in such seemingly anti-gay
statements.
>Do I want to get rid of those ignorant bigoted concepts?
>YES. And the way to get rid of them is with EDUCATION, not by drawing
>an arbitrary line in the sand because of someone's sexuality.
If you don't draw the line somewhere, you will continue to be stepped
all over, and eventually, annihilated. Didn't we learn this from the
lessons of World War II? Didn't we (the allied forces) constantly
cave in to Hitler's demands, until finally, things got so terrible,
that we saw no choice to finally draw our line in the sand, and say
"enough is enough, we declare war on Hitler"? Well, I say enough is
enough with tolerance of homophobia. If we must come to civil war to
end this horror, so be it! That, my dear Maggie, is also education,
of the most vital sort. Wherefor do you believe that education never
teaches backbone, courage, and integrity, as well as facts and
history? Indeed, history has shown, time and again, that often a
people seeking freedom must rebel and fight back, in order to
establish their right to a place on this planet. I believe that
homosexuals have as much right as anyone else...and that our time has
come to declare our sovereignty as an independent people, not as
second-class lackeys in heterocentric and homophobic societies.
Your definition of education is superficial and bourgeois, at best.
>Separating yourself from heterosexuals will not separate you from
>bigotry, it will still exist in the two separate worlds you create,
>and it will be the basis for creating those two separate worlds.
Not true at all. Remaining under the domain of heteros has never
given gay people a decent existance...and we've had centuries of abuse
to prove this. Our situation is similar to that of Jews, who finally
did secede from Europe, to carve out their own nation. They had to,
to save themselves from the genocide of their people. If you existed
back then, and they listened to *your rantings of assimilation
(instead of separation), the gas chambers would still be puffing
smoke, until the last Jew on earth was annihilated. So much for your
sucking up to a gay-hating majority, and predicting only gloom and
evil for a gay society that declares itself independent.
>And please tell me you are just some troll who is pulling my leg.
>I would hate to think a mentality such as what you have expressed
>actually exists.
The mentality does exist, thank God (or Goddess, or the universe, or
nature, or whatever your world view is). Where there are people like
Kingsix in this world, there is indeed hope for gays to one day be a
free and dignified people in their own right. Your attitude is one of
snobbery and self-righteous proclamations that leave no room for
originality or brilliance. If there is *any troll in this discourse,
guess who this might be, Magpie.
Ezekiel Krahlin
Ezekiel Krahlin
In article <68lka4$r...@mtinsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) wrote:
> If gays are isolationist that just worsens the problem- instead of
> being thought of as their brothers and sisters, we will be those queer
> folk over *THERE*.
Oh, really? Wouldn't any people say otherwise, such as "Those brave
folk who set up a democratic state, and put the rest of us to shame
for our gay hatred"?
You certainly have a decidedly unwholesome opinion when it comes to
regarding gay people in a venue *without the lordship of the hetero
power elite. You either refuse to consider gays as capable of running
a society on their own, or seriously do not believe they ever could!
The message I get from your statements is (over and over again): gays
are incapable of running their own lives, let alone a country, without
the guidance and laws of heterosexuals. There is a good word for this
kind of thinking--that heteros are superior to homos, and that gays
can't make their own decisions without het intervention:
"homophobia".
Ezekiel Krahlin
In article <69efb3$b...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) wrote:
>
> kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>
> >Welcome in alt.politics.homosexuality mr. Krahlin.Happy
> >will not lecture us on the beauties of the hetro regime or
> >on the joys of het breeding,colonisation,occupation,
> >domination and oppression.
>
> that there is such a "hetro regime" speaks as loudly about your
> insecurities as when the homophobes yell "Gay Agenda".
I have news for you, Mag: the hetero regime is alive and well. Sorry
if you don't care for Kingsix's choce of words, but he does tell it
like it is, not like we wish it to be. Among the prejudice and phobias
upon which Amerikan and other societies thrive, is homophobia. There
are but only a few very tiny geographic areas in the U.S.A. where gays
can feel a certain degree of safety and freedom. One place is a few
square blocks in San Francisco...yet that, too, is an illusion. For
even in our own "gay mecca" we are being shot, bashed, and bullied,
with very little resistance by the city at large. Even San
Francisco's public transit, MUNI, gets away with homophobia all the
time...even their union defends these bashers. The gay mecca is a sad
joke, a failure, and a prime example of how even our "liberal" het
power elite has betrayed its own gay and lesbian citizens.
> It seems to
> make some people feel all warm and cozy by believing there is some
> huge evil plot out to get them, instead of having to deal with the
> realities of living in a world composed of numerous diverse
> independent people all trying to muddle through their lives the best
> way they know how.
You certainly are the apologizer for homophobes, aren't you, Magpie?
These Nazi cretins who bash gays, and get away with it, thanks to
society's sanctions for homophobia (including Clinton's signing of
DOMA)...are no more than humble folk just "trying to muddle through
their lives the best way they know how." You're a pathetic
spokesperson for any aspect of gay rights...forget independence or
secession! (MUNI would love to have you on their board!) This "huge
evil plot" you claim is only illusory is, unfortunately, all too true.
And it certainly does not make me--or any other self-aware homo-- feel
anywhere near "warm and cozy".
The world is, of course, as you say, "composed of numerous diverse
independent people". You apparantly accept violence as part of this
diversity, and not something we should speak out against...especially
when it comes to violence against gays. I can see it now: You're
walking down a city street late at night, when suddenly you are mugged
by several homophobic thugs who rip the flesh from your face, and
butcher your body with the slices of broken, jagged-edged coke
bottles. As you lay there, dying, you murmur to yourself, "Well, it
takes all kinds, doesn't it!"
> >The crowd here appears to be somewhat different from the
> >one encountered in soc.motss.The one intelligent participant
> >I have noticed is Magenta,who is more articulate in his
> >opposition than others.
>
> Thank you for the complement, but I still think you are a loony.
Kingsix's sarcasm eludes you. No wonder.
> Not only that, the line of sexuality is even far less functional then
> those other lines. At least black folk are born to black folk, and
> white folk are born to white folk.
There is no rationale to this statement. A black child adopted by
white folk, can just as easily join the ranks of other blacks, and
fight for the rights of African Americans. A white person can roll up
his sleeves, and help out, by challenging the racism of other whites.
You do remind us of one of the cruelest, and unique sufferings of gay
people: that, while other oppressed minorities at least have the solid
support of their own blood family, gays do not even have that.
>As gays, we are born to straights.
That is one of the horrors we must confront...and change, now that
alternative forms of insemination exist.
> As a mater of fact, your concept is not just simply as bad as white
> separatists like Ian, it is far worse. Just think of the havoc a
> concept like yours would cause.
Obviously, you are trying to brainwash everyone. Why should havoc
immediately enter my mind, when I think of gay separatism? It does
not. What enters my mind, are pictures of celebration, victory,
pride, friendship, humor, and the blossoming of a kinder, more
interesting world. Don't tell *me (or anyone else in these
newsgroups) what our thoughts should be, Magpie!
>You have already admitted this gay
> nation-state would primarily survive through immigration, correct?
And as long as homophobia exists in any country, we will have no
shortage of citizens.
> So these gay children would be born and raised in a heterosexual-only
> world, part of a heterosexual-only culture.
Yes, that would be their misfortune, as it is ours. But with the
existence of an independent gay-nation, they would finally have the
option to leave a heterocentric society, for one that grants them
freedom to be who they are.
>If you think gays suffer
> from low self esteem and high suicide rates now, just imagine what
> they would be in this world you would create.
"Just imagine?" There you go again, Magpie, deciding for us, what
thoughts should go on in our minds! I *do imagine a young gay seeking
refuge in our new nation of Athenia...and I see the smile of hope on
his (or her face), as he wipes his feet clean of his parents'
homophobic dogma, to enter a society where he is rewarded for
determining his own life path. Your prediction of suicide and misery,
is only a wall of bigotry from you own mind, set up to discourage
other gays from considering secession. It is only too obvious, that
as a gay person, you are still mostly in the camp of heterocentric
attitudes, and have very little to do with the expression of the
homosexual mystique. It is you who lack respect for the gay
lifestyle, for it is you who predict horrible outcomes for gay
sovereignty.
> Those gay children would grow up in a straight world with no
> recognition for what it is to be gay- they would be taught gays are
> those sick and depraved people
News flash: this is how our society is *already structured, and one of
the motives for forming our own society, separate from, and
independent of, such homophobic dogma.
> who live in that country over *there*,
> far, far, away from their family, friends, and the only culture they
> have ever known. They would learn that if mommy and daddy's precious
> child were to turn out to be like one of *those people*, they must
> move to that land of Sodom and sever all ties.
Now, you are even naming this gay nation "Sodom," whereas I call it
"Athenia". You give little respect to neither the idea of a gay
secession, nor to any gay person who espouses it. With gay friends
like you, who needs homophobes? If you carefully re-read your own
statement above, Magpie, you actually give credence to Kingsix's
proposal of secession; not to your own rejection of it. For in
claiming how straight societies would view a gay nation, you only show
how disgusting these heteros are, in their attitudes.
I'm so glad you know exactly how things would go, should a gay
nation--or at least territory--scome into being. It's all gloom,
doom, and wicked ways...totally helpless without the wisdom of
heterocentric preaching. Nothing but failure and terror would come of
it.
Or so you say.
Magenta
To both Ezekiel and Kingsix:
The two of you are filled with bigotry and internalized homophobia so
great you need to project it on others. Just look at your posts to me-
I said that the DIFFERENCE between gays and straights is as
insignificant as the difference between left and right handed people.
The only thing that makes it significant in our society is BIGOTRY.
You, because of your all-consuming self-hatred, read that as
homosexuality is inferior to heterosexuality. Either that's a clear
cut case of projection or your reading comprehension is exceedingly
poor.
I say we need to end BIGOTRY, and you read that as we need to succumb
to violence. Kingsix, you are a loon. Ezekiel, you are an idiot and a
lunatic. This extreme self-hatred is especially evident in your posts,
Ezekiel.
As I have said, as you failed to read, is that HETEROSEXUALS are human
beings, good and bad. HOMOSEXUALS are human beings, good and bad. The
primary cause for the BAD is IGNORANCE, and the cure for ignorance is
EDUCATION. You, however, lack that bravery- you are so afraid of those
mean heterosexuals so you want to run off and hide in your own little
world rather than improving the world you live in. You are also so
bigoted against heterosexuals that to you, everyone with opposite sex
attraction is a gay-hating Nazi.
To Kingsix, if you want to have an intelligent discussion on this
without name calling, I will certainly be willing to start fresh with
you. To Ezekiel the Thracian, I don't think you have that ability.
Your posts were BEYOND a little sarcasm and name calling, they were
down right offensive. If you can be so rude to one of your "gay
brothers", you are proof-positive why such an Eden as you envision
would not work. So much for your sense of solidarity.
Magenta
To Kingsix:
Please tell me, in your own words,
what you think my position is on this issue.
Let's start from scratch without Ezekiel's crap.
Magenta
kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>On january 13,1998,Magenta wrote:
>
>>That feeling of yours that there is such a "hetro regime"
>
>There is no doubt in my mind about the nature of a regime
>which resorts to a hetro mean (het breeding pattern) to
>reach a mainly hetro goal (het majority and supremacy),and
>which is entirely dependent upon heterosexuality for its
>continuation and existence.Such a regime is an hetro one.
My point is there is no "regime", not that there is no
heterosexuality. Heterosexuals, as a general rule, are not out to
subjugate and destroy homosexuals. Those individuals who are
homophobes, Nazis, Klansman, and assorted other bigots and they do NOT
represent the majority of heterosexuals. Just the fact of all of the
progress homosexuals have achieved demonstrates this- It would have
been impossible for us to accomplish all that we have accomplished if
it was not for a sizable percentage of the heterosexual population
agreeing with us.
>>...they act to create hostilities by making an
>>insignificant difference between people into something
>>big enough to define a nation.
>
>I do not think it is so much the difference between various
>sexual orientations than the gay one which is insignificant
>to you.
WRONG. You are projecting your bigotry onto me. The DIFFERENCE is what
is insignificant, not homosexuality. The only thing that makes it
significant is the bigotry that exists in society, which makes the
BIGOTRY the problem, not the sexuality of people.
It will be possible, no, it is most probable, that sexual orientation
will be treated not unlike handedness is in our culture today. Once,
left handed people were considered evil, and practitioners of
witchcraft. Left handed people were burnt on the stake under suspicion
of witchcraft based on no more evidence then their handedness. Now,
handedness is a non-issue, just like sexual orientation will someday
be a non-issue. If all of the left handed people broke off to form
their own nation, then handedness would still be an issue today.
>It would be indeed interesting to ear you saying hets that
>their sexual orientation is insignificant,and then to
>observe their reaction.
And I have- their sexual orientation is an insignificant factor in
measuring their worth as a human being, just as my sexual orientation
is an insignificant factor in determining my worth as a human being.
That does *NOT* mean that sexual orientation is not a component of who
we are- it most certainly is. My point is that it is just ONE
component of a complete human being.
>A difference in sexual orientation is of strategic
>importance.It determines how humans will be conceived,by
>whom and for which purpose they will be reared,and how in
>the end society will look like.
No duh. I never said otherwise. What I said was sexual orientation is
not a significant enough characteristic to base an entire nationality,
nor is the CURRENT state of affairs for gays in America so repugnant
to even consider succession.
>>You have already admitted this gay nation-state would
>>primarily survive through immigration,correct ?
>
>In the first decades,perhaps even *exclusively* through
>immigration,that is correct.
>
>Setting up an entirely new breeding and rearing pattern
>outside heterosexuality could take time materialy,not to
>mention the necessary aggreements that would have to be
>reached within our society.
Immigration would still be a basis even with controlled breeding,
unless you are expecting parents to genetically screen their fetuses
for sexual orientation and abort those that do not match their
nationality.
>>If you think gays suffer from low self esteem and high
>>suicide rates now,just imagine what they would be in this
>>world you would create
>
>[a world where a gay independent state would exist]
>
>The low self esteem is not difficult to detect in tour case.
>Mean...implying that homosexuality is without importance..
>I wonder what is the actual extent of your heterosexual
>interests.
You are projecting again.
>If a gay independent state existed,a certain number of gays
>born and raised under het rule would decide to flee the
>hetro regime.
>
>Your problem then would consist at convincing them to
>remain under het supremacy.It would not be easy to make
>them believe that gays are an insignificant people,
>unworthy of a dignified collective existence and not
>entitled to self-determination.Many would not even listen
>to you,especially the young who have absolutely no future
>under hetro domination.
No, I would not need to convince anyone to live under "het supremacy",
or that gays are "insignificant people". These are your delusions, not
mine. Those who have the courage to change society would remain, while
cowards would run away and hide in their insulated wonderland. What
you would need to do for your plan is convince homosexuals that they
are too weak to fight back, and that the "het supremacists" are
superior to us. Because of your belief of their superiority gays would
have to run away in fear.
I, however, believe we live in ONE society, not two. I believe there
is NO "het supremacy", and there are NO "insignificant people". I
believe it is up to us to change society to ignore all of those
imaginary lines in the sand that you cherish, and treat all humans
EQUALLY. Thus, only the self-hating would follow you.
>Their journey to our country,whatever adventures would
>await them on the way,would be the saga for future gay
>generations to read and study.Upon their arrival,they
>would be greeted as heroes.And it is my hope that among
>the banners then displayed,there would be that motto
>"Never,never alone again !".In the generations to come,
>they would be our historical and social role models.
The point is that hardship would be ONGOING, not some group of
pioneers who will found your nation. Gays would be constantly be born
into the hellhole of a straight-only world, and would have to endure
that. That is not a healthy way to be raised, or a healthy way to
populate a country.
>>Those gay children would grow up in a straight world
>>with no recognition for what it is to be gay...
>
>You think that they enjoy such a recognition now ? What
>you describe are the conditions I grew up in myself.
So the solution is NOT to make things WORSE. THe solution is NOT to
have gays separate from straights making it even more difficult for
the next generation, the solution is the change the ONE unified
society we live in. I read a great web page a while back, written by a
teenage boy in Amsterdam. He said on his page how easy it was for him
to come out- that his friends and family thought it was no big deal,
like he had just announced his favorite color was blue. THAT is the
society we should aim for. Not your homophobia breeding concept.
>And
>comparing my fate with the one of countless others,I
>consider myself very lucky.So many young gays are evicted
>from their hetro and blood families throughout the world
>that it would take an independent state to greet and
>reunite them into peer groups.
So because of the torment you went through, you want to force others
to undergo the same thing, instead of acting to prevent it?
BuBu Spidecky
In all your spewing you stated one thing...Religion is a form of Social Control.
That it is. But you left out Faith. An innate Human quality. Where is your faith? I feel so sorry for you
that you do not have a total indulgence in some form of faith. You are missing out on the most important part
of the Human experience.
bubu.Florida.USA.Terra.Sol.Alpha-Quadrant.Milky-Way-Galaxy.Universe.Big-Bang.Shit-Happens
BuBu Spidecky
B5 f+ t w+ d+vc g+ k+ s- m e r+vr- q-
kin...@abacom.com
In article <69jrll$d...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) wrote:
>
> To Kingsix:
>
> Please tell me, in your own words,
> what you think my position is on this issue.
> Let's start from scratch without Ezekiel's crap.
It is difficult for me to say or do anything against
Ezekiel,insofar as he has not implied yet,like some others
did,that the cultural and political environment in which
we live is a normal environment for a gay individual to
grow up and live in.
You are asking me a really big sacrifice without offering
the slightest compensation.
The other difficulty is that while Ezekiel`s gayness
appears to me as solid and confirmed,an exchange with you
could not go on for very long without myself questionning your
own gayness.Being and atheist and a materialist,I will not
be able to believe forever that your point of view is based
solely either in moral principles or ideology,and will
sooner or later start to look for some more earthtly
interest,eventually connected with your sexual orientation.
This is not the first time I have an exchange with someone
with a mindset like yours.
James Doemer
BuBu Spidecky wrote in message <34bdc...@news3.ibm.net>...
>In all your spewing you stated one thing...Religion is a form of Social
Control.
>
>That it is. But you left out Faith. An innate Human quality. Where is
your faith? I feel so sorry for you
>that you do not have a total indulgence in some form of faith. You are
missing out on the most important part
>of the Human experience.
>
That's where the social control comes in, the controller's ability to
make the controllee engage in blind faith.
kin...@abacom.com
In article <69jucp$d...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) wrote:
> No, I would not need to convince anyone to live under "het supremacy",
> or that gays are "insignificant people". These are your delusions, not
> mine. Those who have the courage to change society would remain, while
> cowards would run away
I would have perhaps accepted your expression "cowards" in
the case of and adult person.
Not so in the case of a kid.
The struggle against an hostile hetro environment and in
conditions more or less similar to war in most countries
is a task that should be spared to gay teens,who are not
adults and therefore not supposed to be soldiers,resistants
or intelligence agents.
I had once to help a gay teen to flee his home,where his
physical security was in danger.Had a gay independent
state existed,I would have put him on a flight to that
country and remained behind to help others like him the
same way,even if it would have meant to renounce a
dignified life in such a country and run the risk of
being imprisonned.
I do not claim self determination for me.My generation
might not even deserve it.Young gays of the future do
not deserve to live under het domination.
Magenta
kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>> or that gays are "insignificant people". These are your delusions, not
>> mine. Those who have the courage to change society would remain, while
>> cowards would run away
>
>the case of and adult person.
>
>Not so in the case of a kid.
>
>The struggle against an hostile hetro environment and in
>conditions more or less similar to war in most countries
>is a task that should be spared to gay teens,who are not
>adults and therefore not supposed to be soldiers,resistants
>or intelligence agents.
That is EXACTLY WHY the gay adults should not flee this "heterophobic"
nation and leave those gay children to fend for themselves without a
gay presence in their culture. That is EXACTLY WHY your concept is
detrimental to gay youth, because rather than working to change the
society we live in you would abandon it. I am not calling children
cowards for being born in a bigoted society, I am calling you a coward
for running away from that society rather than changing that society
for the benefit of the next generations.
>I had once to help a gay teen to flee his home,where his
>physical security was in danger.Had a gay independent
>state existed,I would have put him on a flight to that
>country and remained behind to help others like him the
>same way,even if it would have meant to renounce a
>dignified life in such a country and run the risk of
>being imprisonned.
If you were in such a gay nation, you would have never met that child
to help him. If there were no gay adults for him to know as role
models, he just might have killed himself. If he grew up in a truly
het dominated society- which is what you would create by abandoning
the society of his birth- you might never even know that he was gay.
Acceptance by parents and peers is a key component of a child's
psyche, for children of any orientation. That is why the closet
exists- because individuals would rather deny who they are then face
rejection from society. What you would create by abandoning this
society is a society that even more cruelly rejects them than it does
now.
What I would do is CHANGE SOCIETY, so it no longer rejects that child,
and that is the fight you are afraid of and that is how you are
hurting future gay generations.
>I do not claim self determination for me.My generation
>might not even deserve it.Young gays of the future do
>not deserve to live under het domination.
That is why what we need is EDUCATION, to educate the majority
population to get rid of the bigotry that exists in society. And that
EDUCATION is working. What you would create is exactly what you claim
to be against. By abandoning the nations of the world to cower in a
corner of it, what do you think remains? a world of heterosexual
domination. And this world of heterosexual domination would produce
children who have to go through the hell you described for that child,
and would have to go through it FOREVER.
So the solution is NOT to make things WORSE. The solution is NOT to
have gays separate from straights making it even more difficult for
the next generation, the solution is the change the ONE unified
society we live in. I read a great web page a while back, written by a
teenage boy in Amsterdam. He said on his page how easy it was for him
to come out- that his friends and family thought it was no big deal,
like he had just announced his favorite color was blue. THAT is the
society we should aim for. Not your homophobia breeding concept.
By REMAINING in this society and working to improve this society is
the only way to help the next generation of homosexuals. And what I am
describing is WORKING. Just the fact of all of the progress
homosexuals have achieved demonstrates this- It would have been
impossible for us to accomplish all that we have accomplished if it
was not for a sizable percentage of the heterosexual population
agreeing with us.
What you are doing is running away from a battle in fear,
and it is a battle that we are WINNING, yet you still cower from it
and leave those poor children to suffer the consequences of your
actions.
It will be possible, no, it is most probable, that sexual orientation
will be treated not unlike handedness is in our culture today. Once,
left handed people were considered evil, and practitioners of
witchcraft. Left handed people were burnt on the stake under suspicion
of witchcraft based on no more evidence then their handedness. Now,
handedness is a non-issue, just like sexual orientation will someday
be a non-issue. If all of the left handed people broke off to form
their own nation, then handedness would still be an issue today.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 01:26:53 GMT, lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) said:
>To both Ezekiel and Kingsix:
>
>
>The two of you are filled with bigotry and internalized homophobia so
>great you need to project it on others. Just look at your posts to me-
Speaking for myself (Ezekiel), I have examined my rebuttals to you,
several times over...and I only can see my confronting your drivel as
a great opportunity to further my opinions on gay secession.
Otherwise, it is a waste of time to converse with you.
>I said that the DIFFERENCE between gays and straights is as
>insignificant as the difference between left and right handed people.
Because of the political and social status that has been forced upon
same-sex lovers, for many, many centuries...a *vast difference has
been created, and must be addressed in that manner; for that is the
reality. To pretend there is no difference, is to deny the history of
Thracian holocaust, which continues its wildfire ravaging across this
globe, including Amerikkka. There is such a tremendous qualitative
leap in the history of left-handed persecution, and that of gay
persecution, as to make your point not only very weak, but absolutley
pointless...and even manipulative in favor of homophobic revenge.
>The only thing that makes it significant in our society is BIGOTRY.
Oh, but this bigotry has lasted for so long, and its violence has been
so extreme (and still persists)...as to result in marking gays as
distinct from the rest of society, forever. The idea is to turn this
into pride, and a liberating force. The answer is to *never
assimilate, or our difference, our dignity will vanish...as this would
also become a successful attempt to smother any knowledge that
homosexuals were ever persecuted in the first place.
The greatness of a people is often based on their history of being
persecuted...and without that history, they may never have maintained
a struggle that allows them to still exist, rather than vanish through
assimilation, or lack of self-worth. After all these centuries of
persecution, I care not to forgive and forget...but, like the Jewish
People, look towards asserting our cultural distinction, with the
added chutzpah of forming our own sovereign state.
>You, because of your all-consuming self-hatred, read that as
>homosexuality is inferior to heterosexuality.
Who: me or Kingisx? I'd say if anything, we both come off as seeing
homosexuality as a *superior state of existence. Furthermore, what
hatred I do have (if any against myself), certainly is *not
all-consuming, else I wouldn't be able to tend to my earthly chores,
such as getting out of bed, washing, fixing my meals, and bothering to
compose these messages. You are, Magpie, if nothing else, a divine
source of amusement.
>Either that's a clear cut case of projection
Let me make one thing perfectly queer: Besides being a stalwart
advocate of gay rights, I am equally adamant on ecological issues.
For this reason, I am totally opposed to clear cutting.
>or your reading comprehension is exceedingly poor.
There is a third option which you conveniently ignore.
>Kingsix, you are a loon. Ezekiel, you are an idiot and a
>lunatic. This extreme self-hatred is especially evident in your posts,
>Ezekiel.
As a gay person, I am well-accustomed to being perceived as, and
accused of being, a crazy person...since the majority of society is
homophobic, and chooses to define homosexuality as a sickness. Thus,
I am careful not to accuse another Thracian of insanity, even if I
vehemently oppose his ideas. And of course, any homophobe cannot
conceive of a gay person as *not filled with self-loathing...as this
is a standard stereotype of homosexuals. Yet you persist in
perpetuating this stereotype on myself, a gay activist...just because
you disagree with certain of my viewpoints.
Seeing as you, Magpie, only directly respond to Kingsix's articles, I
presume you are afraid of challenging my rebuttals to your original
messages. Instead, you resort to ignoring my solid case against many
of your statements, and take the easy way out: by not even bothering
to respond to my mail. This is a sign of a desperate person who is
afraid of being proven blatantly misguided. But others read the
articles herein, and can benefit, and be influenced by, my (and
Kingsix's) secessionist philosophy.
>As I have said, as you failed to read, is that HETEROSEXUALS are human
>beings, good and bad. HOMOSEXUALS are human beings, good and bad.
No, I don't think either of us failed to read anything you wrote. It
is you who chooses to fail to grasp the very real fact that majority
of heterosexuals are homophobic, even when they believe otherwise.
Their whole, ingrained lifestyle predisposes them towards (at best)
ignoring the existence of homosexuality, and (at worst) virulently
attacking lesbians and thracians, just because they are not living the
way of Mein BreederKampf.
My impression of you, is not that you really disagree so much with a
secessionist philosophy...but that you want to make it perfectly clear
to the public at large (that is, anyone who may be reading your
articles, either now or any time in the future)...that while you are
gay, you are totally in favor of our present heterosexual regime.
This is in case they come knocking on your door one day, in an attempt
to round up all militant homosexuals, and place them into gas chambers
or experimental laboratories. You will see to it, that you will go on
record, everywhere and anywhere, as a true-blue, loyal,
Hetero-AmeriKKKan boy...even if "gay". You have secured your future,
as best as you know how, in this lunatic asylum we arrogantly call a
democracy. You may, indeed, escape the "final solution", should its
shadow cross our un-fair land...but you won't escape history, and how
you shall be remembered.
>The
>primary cause for the BAD is IGNORANCE, and the cure for ignorance is
>EDUCATION.
Yeah, so if you got into a time machine to visit the Jewish community
of 1930's Germany, this is what you'd be preaching to them, too, no
doubt. As if there is never a time where physical aggression against
one's oppressor *is the right, and best answer. This, as I said in one
of my replies which you conveniently ignore, is also a form of
education. Do you think King George would really comply to colonial
secession of all our forefathers persisted with "educating" him as to
the correctness of such an action? Rather than elaborate once more, I
refer you to my previous messages, in which I rather handily countered
all your feeble justifications for "education" as you so define it in
your own very narrow manner.
Sad but true: Education is not always the answer...but that force of
will need come to play from time to time, else all good educators
would perish.
>You, however, lack that bravery- you are so afraid of those
>mean heterosexuals so you want to run off and hide in your own little
>world rather than improving the world you live in.
This "little world" as you call it, would be the world's first nation
by and for, Lesbians and Thracians. I can't conceive of such an
achievement as coming from anything even remotely resembling
cowardice. To maintain such a nation--especially in the several years
after its inception--would be in the face of much antagonism by the
world at large.
>You are also so
>bigoted against heterosexuals that to you, everyone with opposite sex
>attraction is a gay-hating Nazi.
I know only too well, what even the average, so-called "liberal"
straight person has in mind, when it comes to gay rights. It is so far
from equal rights given to all other people, as to smack of Nazi
intent and breeder piggishness. This is why we come up with mutated
laws like "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", and the "Defense Of Marriage
Act"...formulated by our liberal representatives in Washington, D.C.
Yes, so if that's what we get from "progressive" heteros, I'd much
prefer to just shake the dust of this nation off my feet, and struggle
to create our own society.
Anyone who cares to, may read my essay reagarding "liberal" hets, at:
<http://ezekielk.simplenet.com/write/litmus.htm>
It covers in more detail, what I just discussed above. (It is a
graphic file, scanned from a newspaper, so I can't just paste the text
into this message--sorry). In a nutshell, that essay explains why we
gays delude ourselves, if we believe our "progressive" hetero friends
are really the good friends they claim to be.
>To Kingsix, if you want to have an intelligent discussion on this
>without name calling, I will certainly be willing to start fresh with
>you. To Ezekiel the Thracian, I don't think you have that ability.
As I said a little earlier, you just can't counter my solid arguments,
so you've chosen to focus on Kingsix. As if his remarks were less
intelligent than mine. Actually, he's a lot brighter and better
educated than myself...and if you think you'll find in him an ally to
your viewpoints, you are in for a rude awakening.
>Your posts were BEYOND a little sarcasm and name calling, they were
>down right offensive.
I was rather gentle with you, considering all the airheaded comments
and exclamations you filled this newsgroup with. As far as
name-calling, well, I'd hardly call "Mag," "Maggie," and "Magpie" as
particularly mean at all. You are not the first right-wing or
bourgeouis homosexual who attempts to demonize me, for what I say.
Ho-hum.
>If you can be so rude to one of your "gay brothers",
You are no brother of mine, oh queer turncoat.
>you are proof-positive why such an Eden as you envision
>would not work.
If you believe in the evolution of democracies, yes it will work.
It's already working in Holland, and most of our other Western
Democracies. I just want to take the next logical step: creating a
safe milieu in a society that is *not heterocentric (which Holland
still is, regardless of its gay-friendly laws).
>So much for your sense of solidarity.
What you don't know is bound to hurt you.
kin...@abacom.com
On january 15,1998,Magenta wrote:
>I am calling you a coward for running away from that
>society rather than changing that society for the benefit
>of the next generations.
Don`t want to get personal here Magenta,but have you ever
travelled beyong the industrial and liberal minded part
of the world ? Have you ever been to a war torn country
or to a police state ? Have you ever seen a human being
dying before your eyes ? Have you ever been faced with the
risk or the short term possibility of death ? When you will
have a positive answer to give all these questions,I`ll
admit you as an equal in an argument about what courage
ought to be.
Setting up a gay independent state would entail a
considerable risk for those participating in it.It would
involve finishing off some decaying and moribund state
structure and then defeating and expelling would-be
non-gay successors to that state.Many gays would leave
no less than their lives in such an adventure.It is not
difficult to understand why some,one among others whom I
will not name,would not be part of that adventure.
Not that advocate violence or glorify adventure for the
sake of it.But this world is a place of CONFLICT and of
STRUGGLE.While there could exist reasonnable grounds to
fear a conflict which can be avoided,there is no point in
fearing one which is unavoidable.All we can do is to
prepare ourselves to go through it to the best of our
abilities,thinking no further of our little insignificant
selves and fearing nothing but history`s judgement.
Now for the possibilities of change which could spare us
the risks of a conflict and of a secession.
Society will not change if the way human beings are
currently reared is not radically modified.And the way
they are reared is not likely to be modified if the way
they are reproduced is not also substancially altered.
Either these processes will be collectivised,or society
will change only in name.
It was once suggested in some hetro anarchist circles to
severe sexuality from reproduction,which was a pretty
good but also a pretty utopian idea in a hetro context.
The general impression het societies conveyed me is that
human reproduction and rearing are private matters in
which society has no right to intervene.If such is the
case,then the perpetuation of such fascist and most
likely inbred family clans like the Phelpses is unavoidable.
As Winston Churchill said back in 1938,"We have already
lost peace and we shall have war".
I know on one hand of no party or organisation on the left
side of the political spectrum which advocates social or
state intervention in the field of human reproduction and
rearing.And I do not deal on another hand with the right.
Which in my view leaves little or no chance of success to
your utopia,which besides ignores completely the realities
of third world countries.It would amuse me seing you
preaching your gospel to the Armed Islamic Group of Algeria
of to the Taliban of Afghanistan.
It will be for history,the only goddess I worship as an
atheist,to decide which utopia,yours or mine,will become
first a reality.
Things would be better left to the gay people,who has an
interest in changing the way society is perpetuated,and
who has no private interests to contend with in such fields
as human reproduction or rearing.
In any case,events will follow their course,and we will all
be only their instruments.
Magenta
ezek...@mailcity.com_Z (Ezekiel Krahlin) doth speak:
>On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 01:26:53 GMT, lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) said:
>>To both Ezekiel and Kingsix:
>>
>>The two of you are filled with bigotry and internalized homophobia so
>>great you need to project it on others. Just look at your posts to me-
>
>Speaking for myself (Ezekiel), I have examined my rebuttals to you,
>several times over...and I only can see my confronting your drivel as
>a great opportunity to further my opinions on gay secession.
>Otherwise, it is a waste of time to converse with you.
From your post to me:
>The world is, of course, as you say, "composed of numerous diverse
>independent people". You apparantly accept violence as part of this
>diversity, and not something we should speak out against...especially
>when it comes to violence against gays. I can see it now: You're
>walking down a city street late at night, when suddenly you are mugged
>by several homophobic thugs who rip the flesh from your face, and
>butcher your body with the slices of broken, jagged-edged coke
>bottles. As you lay there, dying, you murmur to yourself, "Well, it
>takes all kinds, doesn't it!"
That was sick. That was repugnant. That was inhumanly repulsive.
Only the mind of someone truly mentally ill, truly disturbed, and
truly homophobic would even THINK to write crap like that. That you
could even SLIGHTLY THINK I condone any form of violence, when I have
specifically stated that bigotry is a problem in this country shows
your severe mental imbalance. For that paragraph alone I deserve an
apology from you.
>>I said that the DIFFERENCE between gays and straights is as
>>insignificant as the difference between left and right handed people.
>
>Because of the political and social status that has been forced upon
>same-sex lovers, for many, many centuries...a *vast difference has
>been created, and must be addressed in that manner; for that is the
>reality.
My VERY NEXT LINE, which you separated from the previous line:
>>The only thing that makes it significant in our society is BIGOTRY.
>[snip examples of bigotry which do not support his point,
>since I already said Bigotry exists in society]
These are THREE LINES of text Zeke- read them together:
I said that the DIFFERENCE between gays and straights is as
insignificant as the difference between left and right handed people.
The only thing that makes it significant in our society is BIGOTRY.
>>The only thing that makes it significant in our society is BIGOTRY.
>
>Oh, but this bigotry has lasted for so long, and its violence has been
>so extreme (and still persists)...as to result in marking gays as
>distinct from the rest of society, forever.
WRONG. THat bigotry has been DECREASING, and DECREASING STEADILY,
within this century. Just read the latest stats. HALF of all college
kids support same sex marriage. HALF. THe MAJORITY of fortune 500
companies and hi-tech companies provide benefits to same sex partners.
Ellen is one of the highest rated TV shows, and she has been named
Entertainer of the Year. MANY major cities have laws specifically
preventing discrimination on the basis of sex. The Episcopal Church
made an official proclamation apologizing for centuries of gay
persecution at about the same time the Baptist church began it's
attacks on gays. Your bigotry against heterosexuals, combined with
your feelings of gay inferiority, mask your abilities to see these
HUGE successes we have made in this society.
> The idea is to turn this
>into pride, and a liberating force. The answer is to *never
>assimilate, or our difference, our dignity will vanish...as this would
>also become a successful attempt to smother any knowledge that
>homosexuals were ever persecuted in the first place.
>The greatness of a people is often based on their history of being
>persecuted...and without that history, they may never have maintained
>a struggle that allows them to still exist, rather than vanish through
>assimilation, or lack of self-worth. After all these centuries of
>persecution, I care not to forgive and forget...but, like the Jewish
>People, look towards asserting our cultural distinction, with the
>added chutzpah of forming our own sovereign state.
WRONG. Being a part of society does not mean forgetting the past. If
anything, it means bringing more of the past crimes to light. With
greater acceptance of homosexuality in this country, more people will
realize how awful life was for gays before that acceptance. YOur
comparison to Jews is a perfect example- there are more Jewish people
in the United States, in New York state alone, than in Israel. Jewish
people live in this country, surrounded by gentiles. They work with
gentiles, talk with gentiles, and make friends with gentiles. Imagine
what Gentiles would think of Jews if they did NOT? If Gentiles had no
exposure to Jews other than what other Gentiles told them? Well, we
have the answer. Take a look at rural america, where there are fewer
Jews and greater anti-semitism. EXPOSURE to gays, like EXPOSURE to
Jews, is what cures bigotry. YOu would end that by herding all gays
away in an isolated place, unable to correct the festering ignorance.
As I said to Kingsix, you are running away from a battle we are
WINNING.
>>You, because of your all-consuming self-hatred, read that as
>>homosexuality is inferior to heterosexuality.
>
>Who: me or Kingisx?
Both.
>>Kingsix, you are a loon. Ezekiel, you are an idiot and a
>>lunatic. This extreme self-hatred is especially evident in your posts,
>>Ezekiel.
>
>As a gay person, I am well-accustomed to being perceived as, and
>accused of being, a crazy person...since the majority of society is
>homophobic, and chooses to define homosexuality as a sickness. Thus,
>I am careful not to accuse another Thracian of insanity, even if I
>vehemently oppose his ideas.
You have nothing against accusing him of allowing violence to exist in
this country directed against other gays, however. Somehow that passes
by your moral compass. So absolutely NO homosexual is EVER insane to
you? How about Daumer or Cunanan? I call someone a nut if I think they
are a nut, and you, my "Thracian" friend, are nuts. You have a tenuous
grip on reality. You look at the world through paranoid glasses.
> And of course, any homophobe cannot
>conceive of a gay person as *not filled with self-loathing...as this
>is a standard stereotype of homosexuals. Yet you persist in
>perpetuating this stereotype on myself, a gay activist...just because
>you disagree with certain of my viewpoints.
Not only do I disagree with your viewpoints, I consider your
viewpoints detrimental to homosexuals and gay activism in general. I
consider thoughts such as yours to be as detrimental as NAMBLA or "sex
panic". You are deluded fringe elements who's words would be quoted by
Fundamentalists and homophobes to entice the public to support them.
"Look!" They will shout, "Homosexuals believe they are superior to us!
They are the true bigots!" Your statements would only act to create
more homophobia and to cause us to loose ground we have won.
>Seeing as you, Magpie, only directly respond to Kingsix's articles, I
>presume you are afraid of challenging my rebuttals to your original
>messages. Instead, you resort to ignoring my solid case against many
>of your statements, and take the easy way out: by not even bothering
>to respond to my mail. This is a sign of a desperate person who is
>afraid of being proven blatantly misguided. But others read the
>articles herein, and can benefit, and be influenced by, my (and
>Kingsix's) secessionist philosophy.
YOu had NO points in your posts to refute, NO rebuttals, NO solid
case. All you had were straw man projections of your warped twisted
views on to me, declaring me a homophobe apologist and a supporter of
violence against gays. You KNOW I said NOTHING even remotely like
that, not even close. You constructed that crap because you could not
deal with MY points. And yes you are projecting again in the above
paragraph- your use of these blatant straw men is "a sign of a
desperate person who is afraid of being proven blatantly misguided."
Try to address what I actually WRITE, not what your warped mind
projects onto what I wrote.
>>As I have said, as you failed to read, is that HETEROSEXUALS are human
>>beings, good and bad. HOMOSEXUALS are human beings, good and bad.
>
>No, I don't think either of us failed to read anything you wrote. It
>is you who chooses to fail to grasp the very real fact that majority
>of heterosexuals are homophobic, even when they believe otherwise.
>Their whole, ingrained lifestyle predisposes them towards (at best)
>ignoring the existence of homosexuality, and (at worst) virulently
>attacking lesbians and thracians, just because they are not living the
>way of Mein BreederKampf.
The widespread homophobia that exists in society is LESSENING. That is
my point. And here is another example of your projection:
>My impression of you, is not that you really disagree so much with a
>secessionist philosophy...but that you want to make it perfectly clear
>to the public at large (that is, anyone who may be reading your
>articles, either now or any time in the future)...that while you are
>gay, you are totally in favor of our present heterosexual regime.
EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. I disagree with your secessionist philosophy
because it will CREATE a heterosexual regime. What we have now is a
society composed of a majority population of heterosexuals who are
ignorant of homosexuality. The way that they learn about
homosexuality, as has been proven countless times, is be getting to
know gay people. What you would do is have there be no more homosexual
people for them to meet, no more gay presence in their society. What
you would do by creating your little gay wonderland is make the rest
of the planet into a "heterosexual regime" by our absence from it.
And more straw man projections:
>This is in case they come knocking on your door one day, in an attempt
>to round up all militant homosexuals, and place them into gas chambers
>or experimental laboratories. You will see to it, that you will go on
>record, everywhere and anywhere, as a true-blue, loyal,
>Hetero-AmeriKKKan boy...even if "gay". You have secured your future,
>as best as you know how, in this lunatic asylum we arrogantly call a
>democracy. You may, indeed, escape the "final solution", should its
>shadow cross our un-fair land...but you won't escape history, and how
>you shall be remembered.
There is no need for me to even respond to this crap. Your delusional
mentality speaks for itself. By the way, I am half Jewish and half my
family died in the concentration camps. You don't know who the fuck
you are talking to, and you write crap like that.
>>The
>>primary cause for the BAD is IGNORANCE, and the cure for ignorance is
>>EDUCATION.
>
>Yeah, so if you got into a time machine to visit the Jewish community
>of 1930's Germany, this is what you'd be preaching to them, too, no
>doubt.
No, it is what I would be preaching to the GERMANS. It is the GERMANS
who needed to be educated, and if they were the Holocaust would have
never taken place. Hitler would have been greeted by the German people
like David Duke is greeted by the Americans- as a hatemonger, a fringe
lunatic. Because the GERMANS did not understand who the Jews were, the
Nazis capitalized on that ignorance. The Nazis convinced the German
people that Jews ate babies. How could they do this? because the
Germans were IGNORANT of Jews.
> As if there is never a time where physical aggression against
>one's oppressor *is the right, and best answer.
And this is NOT that time. THis is the time when we are WINNING
through the courts, through legislation, and through the media. WE ARE
WINNING. People are being educated. EDUCATION IS WORKING. And you
would have us throw all of that away so you can cower in your little
Thracian corner.
> This, as I said in one
>of my replies which you conveniently ignore, is also a form of
>education. Do you think King George would really comply to colonial
>secession of all our forefathers persisted with "educating" him as to
>the correctness of such an action? Rather than elaborate once more, I
>refer you to my previous messages, in which I rather handily countered
>all your feeble justifications for "education" as you so define it in
>your own very narrow manner.
You never once countered what I said about education, you created
straw men and set them ablaze. I was not the one who defined education
in any narrow manner, you did, and projected that on me. No wonder you
don't bother to debate the homophobes in this newsgroup, even the
dumbest ones could crack through your lack of debate skills.
>Sad but true: Education is not always the answer...but that force of
>will need come to play from time to time, else all good educators
>would perish.
>
>>You, however, lack that bravery- you are so afraid of those
>>mean heterosexuals so you want to run off and hide in your own little
>>world rather than improving the world you live in.
>
>This "little world" as you call it, would be the world's first nation
>by and for, Lesbians and Thracians. I can't conceive of such an
>achievement as coming from anything even remotely resembling
>cowardice. To maintain such a nation--especially in the several years
>after its inception--would be in the face of much antagonism by the
>world at large.
It is cowardice to run away from a battle instead of fighting in it.
It is EXTREME cowardice to run away from a battle we are WINNING.
>>You are also so
>>bigoted against heterosexuals that to you, everyone with opposite sex
>>attraction is a gay-hating Nazi.
>
>I know only too well, what even the average, so-called "liberal"
>straight person has in mind, when it comes to gay rights.
You have NO CLUE what the average liberal straight person has in mind
when it comes to gay rights.
> It is so far
>from equal rights given to all other people, as to smack of Nazi
>intent and breeder piggishness.
WRONG. I happen to know "liberal" heterosexuals, do you? Seems not.
They want employment benefits extended to same sex partners, they want
legal recognition of same-sex marriage, they want homosexuality to be
a part of diversity and sensitivity training in schools, offices, and
police stations, they want homophobic attacks to be punished to the
full extent of the law, they want Gays and Lesbians represented in
government offices and the media. Some years back, a straight friend
of mine made a comment to me I will never forget, and it was a comment
he made to me BEFORE I came out to him- he said that at some point in
the future people will look back at our current societies treatment of
homosexuals the same way we now look back on slavery, and the
holocaust. THAT is what liberal heterosexuals think, and that is NOT a
"smack of Nazi intent and breeder piggishness". To read that into it
is your own bigotry against heterosexuals, which is without a doubt
caused by you sense that you are inferior. That is your problem to
deal with, not mine or theirs.
> This is why we come up with mutated
>laws like "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", and the "Defense Of Marriage
>Act"...formulated by our liberal representatives in Washington, D.C.
WRONG. Both of those were created by CONSERVATIVE politicians. "Don't
Ask, Don't Tell" and DOMA were accepted by our MODERATE, not LIBERAL,
president because he thought he would loose conservative votes if he
did not, and he needed those votes to get re-elected. They do not say
ANYTHING about liberal heterosexuals.
>Yes, so if that's what we get from "progressive" heteros, I'd much
>prefer to just shake the dust of this nation off my feet, and struggle
>to create our own society.
My point is that is NOT what we get from "progressive" heteros, that
is what we get from CONSERVATIVES. And if the worst examples of a
"Hetero Regime" you can come up with are not letting us serve in the
military and preventing our marriages from crossing state lines, then
you are truly a coward for running away from such easy battles.
>>To Kingsix, if you want to have an intelligent discussion on this
>>without name calling, I will certainly be willing to start fresh with
>>you. To Ezekiel the Thracian, I don't think you have that ability.
>
>As I said a little earlier, you just can't counter my solid arguments,
>so you've chosen to focus on Kingsix.
You had no solid arguments, just straw men, and disgustingly insulting
ones at that. You wrote crap that I would expect from someone like
BARD or Tom Goodman.
> As if his remarks were less
>intelligent than mine.
No, his remarks were MORE intelligent, that's why. His remarks,
although still filled with projected straw men, were not as
repugnantly hate filled as yours.
Ezekiel Krahlin
--------------------------------------------------------------
Permission granted by author for anyone to distribute this
writing free of charge (including translation into any
language)...under condition that it remain intact and
complete, including title and credit to the original author:
Ezekiel J. Krahlin.
ezek...@iname.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
SEVEN LITMUST TESTS
(First published in the San Francisco
Bay Area Reporter, as "Guest Opinion")
copyright 1996 by Ezekiel J. Krahlin
(Jehovah's Queer Witness)
August 15, 1996
Dear Lesbian and Gay Readers,
So, you have straight friends--even family members,
perhaps--who are so very understanding and accepting of your
homosexuality. Or are they, really? Take a second look and
see how they stand up to the seven litmus tests I describe
herein:
1) Of course, if they accept your homosexuality, they
are most likely "liberals". And--being the good liberals they
are--they proudly wear T-shirts and decals proclaiming their
support of black people's rights, women's rights, ecological
causes, anti-nuclear slogans, et cetera. But where are their
T-shirts that say something like "Another hetero for gay
rights"? If your straight friends do not display pro-gay
icons on a regular basis--as they do for other causes--then
they are not truly supportive of your sexual civil rights.
Just as in the past, many white folks did not vocalize support
for black people from fear of being called "nigger
lovers"...many liberals are afraid of being labeled "faggot"
if they display support for gay rights. (Their loss, and your
holocaust.)
2) Your "progressive" hetero friends love to chew the
fat over political issues (see above)...yet they never seem to
come around to discussing the gay dilemma. Unless, of course,
you yourself interject that topic, with resulting token
responses by your "supportive" chums. But if you're silent, or
not there, homosexuality is never a part of their progressive
agenda. If they donate to liberal causes, have they ever
included a contribution to some lesbian or gay organization?
3) If your "loving" family members say they support
you...how far will they go in defending you before a bigoted
relative? Or do they avoid the topic of homosexuality
altogether, in order to never be in a position to defend you?
4) If you lost a lover from AIDS or other tragedy: how
many family members rush to your side in loving concern, to
ease you through your passage of grief...as they clearly would
for their heterosexual kin? Or do they give you a cursory nod
of sympathy, then go on their own selfish way? (Implying, of
course, that no one can really take a homosexual relationship
seriously...it is, at best, a joke; and certainly something
one can get over in a few weeks or less.)
5) Has any close relative (such as a brother, sister, or
parent) ever voluntarily approached you to ask your opinions
of what it's like to be gay, and how you cope with an
intolerant society? Does any relative take the kindness to
recognize your humanity during Lesbian/ Gay Pride Week? (Or
do they all pretend they don't even know of its existence,
even when you remind them of the upcoming event each year?)
Has any one of them actually read a book about
homosexuality--just as they read about racism, Viet Nam,
etc.-- that they may better understand the issue?
6) Are your "understanding" hetero buddies often
rationalizing society's homophobia with statements like:
"Well, heterosexuality is so deeply ingrained in our
culture...it will take some time yet for society to come
around." Though they would never dream of saying the same
thing for other issues of oppression; such as black people's
rights, child abuse, job discrimination towards females, etc.
(Yet those negative aspects are just as ingrained in our
society, as is hatred towards homosexuals.)
7) Do your relatives go all ga-ga over conventional
"het" weddings within the family...and pretend to never
comprehend why you might feel a little less eager to celebrate
these breeder unions, than they are? ("Oh, cousin Peggy, I'm
so happy you're getting married to the man of your dreams!
I'll dance with all the bridesmaid's and sing, and play piano,
and in general, be the life of the party. Then when it's all
over, I'll go back to my little queer closet, where I can
brood to my heart's content over never being able to celebrate
a marriage with the partner of my dreams, as you, privileged
hetero, can so freely do.")
Note: Would you consider refusing to attend hetero
weddings until the time when gays can also marry...and mail a
written declaration to this effect to your closer relatives?
Or are you a slave to your family's every demand...and/or
afraid of losing certain fringe benefits, such as paid college
tuition, generous birthday and graduation gifts, family
business loans and donations, and a sumptuous inheritance or
two? If so, then you must also bear some guilt for
perpetuating homophobia. Mama's boys just don't cut the
mustard when it comes to defending homosexual civil rights at
the cost of making their mothers happy.
Many of us live in delusion as to the assumed "stalwart
support" from our heterosexual kith and kin. So I hope the
examples above will wake up some of our sisters and brothers.
I must also point out that if you do have family members and
straight friends who pass these litmus tests, then you are a
lucky soul, indeed.
I am a Christian who believes that Jesus is homosexual,
and whose lover is of course, God. And it is also my belief
that Jesus had the homosexuality/family issue in mind, when He
said (Matthew 10:35-36):
For I have come to set a man against his
father, a daughter against her mother, and a
daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a
man's foes will be those of his own household.
President Clinton's signing of the so-called "Defense Of
Marriage Act" is clearly this prophecy on the way to
fulfilling itself. Best prepare for the revolution about to
come, and beware of family and most of your hetero
buddies--for they may kill you with "friendly fire."
-----finis
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:16:44 GMT, lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) said:
>ezek...@mailcity.com_Z (Ezekiel Krahlin) doth speak:
>From your post to me:
>
>>The world is, of course, as you say, "composed of numerous diverse
>>independent people". You apparantly accept violence as part of this
>>diversity, and not something we should speak out against...especially
>>when it comes to violence against gays. I can see it now: You're
>>walking down a city street late at night, when suddenly you are mugged
>>by several homophobic thugs who rip the flesh from your face, and
>>butcher your body with the slices of broken, jagged-edged coke
>>bottles. As you lay there, dying, you murmur to yourself, "Well, it
>>takes all kinds, doesn't it!"
>
>That was sick. That was repugnant. That was inhumanly repulsive.
How so? Many smug, materialistic people self-satisfied in their insane
world, think things are perfect as they are, even when they get bashed
by bigots. Your encouraging us to kiss up to a homophobic-based hetero
majority, is far more repugnant than the graphic example of how your
kind of ass-kissers cowtow to the majority.
>Only the mind of someone truly mentally ill, truly disturbed, and
>truly homophobic would even THINK to write crap like that.
Well, I guess because Magpie says so, it must be so.
>That you
>could even SLIGHTLY THINK I condone any form of violence, when I have
>specifically stated that bigotry is a problem in this country shows
>your severe mental imbalance.
Many people vociferate how much they are against violence...yet the
type of thinking they encourage is exactly what invites further
violence and bigotry. Example: Christians who claim they love gay
people, but not their "sin". This just adds fuel to the fire of
homophobia...and they know it. In your case, your appeasal to the
status quo just tends to make one believe that the level of homophobia
is okay as it is...just because it isn't out-and-out official warfare.
>For that paragraph alone I deserve an apology from you.
Your attempts to manipulate the thoughts of others who don't see
things your way, are thinly veiled. Nevertheless: I apologize...
for even giving you any attention! However, as I said earlier, at
least your presence provides a sounding board where I can continue
presenting my pro-secession ideas. So keep on yapping.
>>>I said that the DIFFERENCE between gays and straights is as
>>>insignificant as the difference between left and right handed people.
And so and so forth. I will not waste anyone's time by rehashing my
original rebuttal, as they stand up quite well without further
justification.
>WRONG. THat bigotry has been DECREASING, and DECREASING STEADILY,
>within this century. Just read the latest stats. HALF of all college
>kids support same sex marriage. HALF. THe MAJORITY of fortune 500
>companies and hi-tech companies provide benefits to same sex partners.
And blah, blah, blah. I never said we haven't made any advances.
I just don't wanna wait another 200 years...I'd rather fight to
secede...and perhaps move to Holland, where I can better develop my
latest agendas for gay rights.
However, the majority of states have enforced anti-gay marriage
laws...homophobic attacks are at an all-time high, these last few
years. Let us not forget how many unneccesary suffering and deaths of
gay people, as the result of medical neglect (in the form of
gay-hatred) of our AIDS patients! And still: less then 1/10the of 1%
of AmeriKKKa is even reasonably safe for a gay person to be her or him
self. I can't hold such a celebratory attitude as you do.
All this pathetic redneck supremacy, regardless of the few strides we
have made...while most other western democracies have gotten *over
their homophobia, and in this--as well as many other vital issues
(such as health care)--are now light years ahead of us. This would
include: Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finnland, Canada, New
Zealand, Australia, and some others I may have left out.
>Ellen is one of the highest rated TV shows, and she has been named
>Entertainer of the Year.
I'm glad that has happened...she is courageous, considering the
hostile environment this nation still fosters.
>MANY major cities have laws specifically
>preventing discrimination on the basis of sex.
"Many" is a loose adjective. They are still far less than the total
number of cities over a million. Besides, cities do not make a state,
and state law always overrides those of cities. All your references
just point out the ridiculous foot-dragging over gay rights, our
country persists in, resulting in this pathetic patchwork of a few
pro-gay laws here and there...and new, more adamant laws *against
homosexuality everywhere else. Don't forget, our own President
slapped us in the face--not once, but twice--by conjuring up "Don't
Ask, Don't Tell", and "DOMA". Can you imagine? "In defense of
(hetero) marriage!" Wow, we homos are such a terrible threat! Pres.
Clinton is just as responsible for giving new energy for these latest
waves of homophobia, as are the usual army of backwoods preachers and
Aryan goose-steppers. I am ashamed of him, and ashamed to be an
AmeriKKKan.
Besides, even in these wonderful, "gay-friendly" cities, homophobic
bashings are on the rise, higher than any other minority. Including
the "gay mecca" of San Francisco. In this "mecca", it is still
dangerous for gays to let themselves be known, in most of this city,
except for a few square blocks. I'm sure it is equally dangerous for
gay people in most of the areas of these wonderfully liberated
AmeriKKKan cities.
>The Episcopal Church
>made an official proclamation apologizing for centuries of gay
>persecution at about the same time the Baptist church began it's
>attacks on gays.
Well, la de da for the Episcopissians! Where *are all our progressive
churches, when it comes to the gay issue? We see them out there,
rolling up their sleeves, taking to the streets, for *other vital
issues, such as: racism, child abuse, women's rights, and the ecology.
But they certainly seem to lack this sense of vociferous challenge,
when it comes to speaking out for gay people. Sure, write something
on a piece of paper, change a rule...but Jesus forbid these "liberal"
churches would ever actually take to the streets on behalf of
Thracians and Lesbians, as they do for *other oppressed peoples! It
still comes down to foot dragging, Episcopisco or Nabisco.
>Your bigotry against heterosexuals,
You confuse bigotry with outrage. I am outraged and disgusted that my
nation is going to enter the next century with an overwhelmingly
homophobic agenda...in other words: same old, same old. And you, oh
Magpie of the shrieking tongue, aren't much better by persisting on
painting a picture for gays that is far more rosier than reality. The
only truly wholesome and sane response any gay should have to
AmeriKKKa *is outrage against this rampant heterocentrism that pushes
its attitudes into our homes, our bedrooms, and down our throats and
up our asses.
>combined with your feelings of gay inferiority,
The only thing that makes me feel inferior is realizing I am of the
same species as yourself.
>mask your abilities to see these HUGE successes we have made in this society.
You may look elsewhere to other democracies, for these "huge"
successes...here in the U.S.ofAssholes, we should be ashamed or our
betrayal to our own gay citizens. San Francisco's own rising and
aggressive homophobic occurrences--in our "gay mecca"--can only be a
shameful piece of human betrayal.
>WRONG. Being a part of society does not mean forgetting the past. If
>anything, it means bringing more of the past crimes to light. With
>greater acceptance of homosexuality in this country, more people will
>realize how awful life was for gays before that acceptance. YOur
>comparison to Jews is a perfect example- there are more Jewish people
>in the United States, in New York state alone, than in Israel. Jewish
>people live in this country, surrounded by gentiles.
Yeah, well, they had to have a big war, first, in order to gain such
respect...INCLUDING FORMING THEIR OWN NATION. Now, I like that idea,
even if you think it's wrong, you slimey assimilationist ass-licker of
hetero bigots.
I believe that the formation of a Lesbian/Thracian independent state,
will only bring *more laws and protection to gays worldwide...just as
the establishment of little Israel has done for the Jewish. Surely,
their attempts to assimilate in Nazi Germany--and a large part of the
rest of Europe--failed, considering the terribly antisemitic
environment. I see ourselves--here in AmeriKKKa and many other
countries across the globe--in the same situation...and that the
community of Jews can set an example as to how we, as a community and
a force of freedom, can support our own people in much more effective
ways, as well as strive to build our own, unique society.
You claim our own separation into a nation would create further
divisiveness, and discourage assimilation. I say, we would gain more
respect across the world, and thus make the situation for all gay
people no matter which country they live in, far better than it ever
has been. This new nation of Athenia would be in a prime position to
challenge other countries to treat gays better--at cost of
condemnation and economic sanctions by a world community. Having our
own nation, would empower us far beyond just being some nebulous
political factions scattered here and there.
>They work with
>gentiles, talk with gentiles, and make friends with gentiles. Imagine
>what Gentiles would think of Jews if they did NOT?
They don't, in Israel. They realized the *need to secede from gentile
cultures, if they had any hope of surviving with their own culture
intact. You use, as an example to defend your viewpoint against gay
secession, the very community who *did secede successfully because of
social hatred...to form their own nation! Thank you for inadvertantly
bolstering my own claims in favor of gay secession.
>If Gentiles had no
>exposure to Jews other than what other Gentiles told them? Well, we
>have the answer. Take a look at rural america, where there are fewer
>Jews and greater anti-semitism.
Rural Amerikkka? Rural, did you say? Oh, a fine place for gays to
live. Your example of "rural" America only proves further my point,
that we have actually made very little progress in gay rights...in
fact, we have gone backwards.
>EXPOSURE to gays, like EXPOSURE to Jews, is what cures bigotry.
Just like the exposure of Jews in Germany, Poland, Austria, Hungary,
and Czechoslavakia in the 1920's, 30s, and 40s, eh? My, that was
quite a cultural success!
My point being, that education and exposure as you define it, do not
always succeed, and that sometimes the aggressive force of an
oppressed people's will to either start a revolution, or secede to
form one's own nation, is the only answer. History books are filled
with far more examples of the latter action, than what you propose.
And you say that suddenly, the rules have changed?
>YOu would end that by herding all gays
>away in an isolated place, unable to correct the festering ignorance.
Just like Israel, yeah, right. Your lack of faith in gay people to
run their own nation is abhorrent. Should we ever have our own
nation, we could turn out to be a role model for the rest of the
world, as to how different races and religious beliefs can get along,
rather than fight. For that is the only way gay people could form a
viable and enduring community and country.
>As I said to Kingsix, you are running away from a battle we are
>WINNING.
No thanks to your assimilationist claptrap. I believe that if more
gays don't get more aggressive very soon, we will not go any further,
or even turn the clock back more. We are still the most violent
western democracy in the world, as well as most homophobic.
>>>Kingsix, you are a loon. Ezekiel, you are an idiot and a
>>>lunatic. This extreme self-hatred is especially evident in your posts,
>>>Ezekiel.
As for name-calling: I don't care what anyone calls me in
newsgroups...the debate, at any cost, far overrides in value, this
arguing over who calls who *what. Nevertheless, before I even called
you by any term--let alone participated in this thread--you already
titled me with the term "lunatic". Yet, when I call you "Magpie", you
scream "unfair, you owe me an apology". So get off your high horse,
you phony twit.
>You have nothing against accusing him of allowing violence to exist in
>this country directed against other gays, however.
You're really off the wall with this statement...only Deity knows
where you got this from. Oh, well, moving on...
>Somehow that passes
>by your moral compass. So absolutely NO homosexual is EVER insane to
>you? How about Daumer or Cunanan?
Our society ceaselessly pounds into our heads how evil, how wrong, how
absolutely *sinful is homosexuality. Most of us manage to plod
through life relatively calm...to lesser or greater degrees. Some
can't overcome this dark hatefulness, and wind up commiting
suicide...or (a little better), permanently in deep depression for a
lifetime. A handful, however, finally explode, and kill others. This
is the price a homophobic society must pay, until it finally decides
to stop this barbaric attitude. Society created these monster, by
making them believe they were intrinsically evil, by virtue of
homosexual desire.
It is the people who foster such hateful beliefs, that should be
imprisoned, too. But they're not. Instead, they are revered and
worship as perfect family folk...and the more they breed, the more
Godly they are. Such as the "sinister seven" that were just popped
out of some breadbasket lady's womb...and gives all credit for this
scientific anomaly to Jesus. What a breeding machine she is! Wow! I'm
sure she's barefoot and in the kitchen all the time too.
>I call someone a nut if I think they
>are a nut, and you, my "Thracian" friend, are nuts. You have a tenuous
>grip on reality. You look at the world through paranoid glasses.
Sorry, but you lose, dearest Magpie. Nice try, however. There is no
way a hateful soul such as yourself, is going to brainwash me into
perceiving myself as insane, inferior, or misguided. I am one of the
fortunate few homosexuals, who has victioriously risen above society's
homophobic bootcamp training. I am a soldier. You are garbage.
>Not only do I disagree with your viewpoints, I consider your
>viewpoints detrimental to homosexuals and gay activism in general.
Oh, I agree, absolutely...in that gay politics here in AmeriKKKa is
bankrupt, as it has also become terribly rightwing, apologist,
assimilationis, elitist, and very upper middle class status quo.
AmeriKKKan gay politics is every bit as racist, classist, bigoted, and
immoral as our mainstream politics have become. I believe that
lesbians and gays from other nations must stop following USA-brand
queer politics, and develop their own culturally-derived agendas...to
enrich and empower the global revolution of gay rights that is
steaming on down from the near future.
>I consider thoughts such as yours to be as detrimental as NAMBLA or "sex
>panic".
Like other AmeriKKKan groups, they are hypocritical and have hidden
agendas. But yes, I have every intention of being detrimental to any
gay assimilationist group. After all, it's time for them to exit
stage left.
>You are deluded fringe elements who's words would be quoted by
>Fundamentalists and homophobes to entice the public to support them.
>"Look!" They will shout, "Homosexuals believe they are superior to us!
>They are the true bigots!" Your statements would only act to create
>more homophobia and to cause us to loose ground we have won.
I hardly think I could do a better job than you are, dearest, of
giving fuel to the fire of the homophobic right. No one can stop
bigots from twisting gay activist ideas any way they please, to suit
themselves...just as they do the Bible.
You are working overtime, trying to demonize me, in the eyes of others
who may be gullible enough to fall for your persuasive statements.
But I really I already dwell in a ship of fools...but as an
AmeriKKKan, and a gay person who lives in the so-called gay mecca. So
the spittle you spit in my face, can only strenghten my political
immune system. I don't care of most of the entire queer world hates
me...I know I am on the right track, and that I am heard and
respected, by those who truly are capable of thinking for
themselves...whether homo, bi, or het.
>YOu had NO points in your posts to refute, NO rebuttals, NO solid
>case. All you had were straw man projections of your warped twisted
>views on to me, declaring me a homophobe apologist and a supporter of
>violence against gays. You KNOW I said NOTHING even remotely like
>that, not even close.
Oh, blah, blah, blah. It has been writ: my proclamations against your
silly and selfish and pro-hetero assimilationist diatribes, are there
for all to read, and laugh along...and shall be preserved for all
eternity, for anyone to reference whenever they wish...here in the
electronic Akashic Recorde that is called "The Internet".
>EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. I disagree with your secessionist philosophy
>because it will CREATE a heterosexual regime.
Just as Israel created an anti-semitic regime? Just as the
Revolutionary War created an anti-American regime?
>What we have now is a
>society composed of a majority population of heterosexuals who are
>ignorant of homosexuality.
For once, we agree.
>The way that they learn about
>homosexuality, as has been proven countless times, is be getting to
>know gay people.
I am sick and tired of letting heteros "get to know" me...at risk of
being hated, bashed, or killed.
>What you would do is have there be no more homosexual
>people for them to meet, no more gay presence in their society.
They don't deserve gay presence. However, since 10% of children will
always be born gay (barring eugenic intervention), het societies will
never lack for a homosexual presence.
>What
>you would do by creating your little gay wonderland is make the rest
>of the planet into a "heterosexual regime" by our absence from it.
Nonsense. It's so easy to see through your claims, I'd rather not
elaborate.
>There is no need for me to even respond to this crap. Your delusional
>mentality speaks for itself. By the way, I am half Jewish and half my
>family died in the concentration camps. You don't know who the fuck
>you are talking to, and you write crap like that.
Well, I respect your Jewishness. However, you are like my new building
manager, of Ashkenazi descent...who threatens to evict anyone that
doesn't want to be a yuppie like him. Or how about a property manager
I once worked for--also Jewish. He would constantly rip off Latino
immigrants, by doubling the cost of all rentals the moment they showed
an interest. Yes, unfortunately, Jews have their own kinds of
turncoats and lackeys. No group is perfect...as you, sweet Magpie of
the golden tongue, so amply demonstrate.
>No, it is what I would be preaching to the GERMANS. It is the GERMANS
>who needed to be educated, and if they were the Holocaust would have
>never taken place.
Your simplistic analyses are the kind that open the doors of ethnic
hatred and cultural ignorance.
>The Nazis convinced the German
>people that Jews ate babies. How could they do this? because the
>Germans were IGNORANT of Jews.
Just as we gays are portrayed as baby-eaters in AmeriKKKa, and bashed,
and hated, and denied housing, jobs, and decent life in general.
Sure, I'm all for fighting our battle in this country, in order to
finally win...but I am also determined that we have our own nation...a
place on this earth we can truly call home...and which can be an
asylum for all persecuted gays from other parts...include the very,
very homophobic Muslim Empire. And I would number among the first
soldiers of espionage, to infiltrate their troops, and probably die on
the battlefield in one of my numerous rescue attemtps.
Meanwhile, we have yet to even form our army. Let's start there, and
focus on secession a few years down the line.
>And this is NOT that time. THis is the time when we are WINNING
>through the courts, through legislation, and through the media. WE ARE
>WINNING. People are being educated. EDUCATION IS WORKING. And you
>would have us throw all of that away so you can cower in your little
>Thracian corner.
Yes, in some ways we are winning (given another 200 years)...which
also makes it prime time to grab onto the ring of liberation and
sovereignty...for only now, are more gay people waking up to their
true worth. We can have both, and we should have both. This little
Thracian corner, as you call it, will become a beacon of hope for *all
people worldwide, including those who aren't gay. I'm sure you don't
describe little Israel in like manner...in fact, I'm sure as a Jewish
person, you feel great *pride that you have your own nation. Yet, you
would vociferously *deny that to gay people...who have not only been
persecuted as longs as have Jews...but whose origin of homosexual
hatred in today's world, has come from that same Jewish culture!
>No wonder you
>don't bother to debate the homophobes in this newsgroup, even the
>dumbest ones could crack through your lack of debate skills.
This statement, and the rest of your statements, are childish
prattlings, with which I care not to waste my time. You might educate
yourself as to what I have accomplished for gay rights in my lifetime
thus far, by spending some quality time at my web site (see below).
Meanwhile, I have managed to process my scanned newspaper article
("Seven Litmus Tests), into my OCR software, and have it come out as
text. I will end this article with that:
(see my next article)
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:16:44 GMT, lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) said:
>You don't know who the fuck you are talking to,
Sure I do: The Great Magenta, who fancies himself a
Sorceror/Magician/Witch of the highest order...and is likely chanting
the most vile curses to practice upon me...while he dances circles
around the powder-drawn pentagram from within which flickers one black
candle. Perhaps you even have a wax doll that you are crafting into my
image, then pierce with needles, electrodes, and exacto knives.
Chicken blood stains spill across all your messages...who needs to
read between the lines?
Welcome to the New Age!
Chad Lautner
Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
Well, la de da for the Episcopissians! Where *are all our progressive
> churches, when it comes to the gay issue? We see them out there,
> rolling up their sleeves, taking to the streets, for *other vital
> issues, such as: racism, child abuse, women's rights, and the ecology.
> But they certainly seem to lack this sense of vociferous challenge,
> when it comes to speaking out for gay people. Sure, write something
> on a piece of paper, change a rule...but Jesus forbid these "liberal"
> churches would ever actually take to the streets on behalf of
> Thracians and Lesbians, as they do for *other oppressed peoples! It
> still comes down to foot dragging, Episcopisco or Nabisco.
>
Actually where I live the Epis. church is one of the very few churched that
allows a large number of gay organizations to hold meetings, and events in their
building. Not everyone can support every cause even if they agree with them. I am
all for repealing handguns, but that doesn't mean I am going to go out and
protest.
Chad
--
In lectulo meo per noctes quæsivi quem diligit anima mea: quæsivi illum, et non
inveni.
+++Cantico Canticorum+++Song of Songs+++
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:17:08 -0500, Chad Lautner
<ae...@traverse.lib.mi.us> said:
>
>
>Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
>> churches, when it comes to the gay issue? We see them out there,
>> rolling up their sleeves, taking to the streets, for *other vital
>> issues, such as: racism, child abuse, women's rights, and the ecology.
> Actually where I live the Epis. church is one of the very few churched that
>allows a large number of gay organizations to hold meetings, and events in their
>building.
How generous of them. This is an example of the feeble support even
our most progressive churches give to gay people.
>Not everyone can support every cause even if they agree with them.
Therefore we must excuse homophobia, and look for some future time
when society's churches finally get around to fighting gay hatred. I
see.
>I am all for repealing handguns, but that doesn't mean I am going to go out and
>protest.
So much for your sense of human rights for gay people. At least
that's how *you come across: as an apologist for homophobia in
general, and for our more liberal churches, specifically. By the way,
I 'm all for gay people *arming themselves with pepper spray and
handguns.
Again, I state: while certain major churches aggressively attack
homosexuals...there is *no major church (progressive or otherwise)
that is as aggressive in *defending gay people. These
churches--including those that gays attend--are also our enemies, for
they feed into homophobia by such feeble support they give to gays, in
the political arena.
Just to provide some space for gay meetings, or to sign a piece of
paper that says gay is okay...is no answer to the real gay-bashing and
discrimination that is out there every moment of every day. Now that
it seems our society is giving in a bit to gay liberation, then these
brave liberal churches begin to support us, however feeble. Too
little, too late, in my opinion.
>--
>In lectulo meo per noctes quęsivi quem diligit anima mea: quęsivi illum, et non
>inveni.
>+++Cantico Canticorum+++Song of Songs+++
Whatever. Irrelevant.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 02:18:53 GMT, in alt.politics.homosexuality you
said:
>Let's start from scratch without Ezekiel's crap.
One man's treasure is another man's trash. (Though calling *you a man
is a stretch of the imagination, to say the least.)
>+----- Peace & Love, ----+
Yes, you really are full of it, aren't you. God's little
goody-two-shoes cherub spreading a false peace of hetero supremacy at
the cost of gay liberation...sort of a homophobe's "Pax Romana".
---
Let's secede from those who breed,
Make it sin to *not waste seed!
GodHates...@HetBeGone.com
JTEM
Ezekiel Krahlin (ezek...@mailcity.com) wrote:
[---snip---]
At first it was red and shiny, the sun's rays glowing around it as
if they refused to land. It was as big as an echo and twice as deep yet
when I held it in my hands it no heavier than a smile.
It turned green then whirled. It turned blue and rose high above me, then
switched to yellow and began to bob and dart about.
People came from miles around, all just to see it. They pointed, they
gawked. "Look," they cried, "Look at it now! It's gone white... No, it's
orange!
They cheered.
"Look at it dance!" They shouted. "Look at it spin!" They exclained. "Hear
it? Hear it sing? Hear it whirl?" They asked. "My such a fine thing it is"
"Where did you get it," they asked, "Where can I get one." I had no
answer.
"I will buy it from you," they offered.
But I wouldn't sell it, not even for money.
John
kin...@abacom.com
On january 15,1998,Magenta wrote:
>That is exactly why the gay adults should not [...] leave
>those gay children to fend for themselves without a gay
>presence in their culture.
Where indeed was that adult gay presence while I grew up ?
I had no adult gay role models.I had to seek and did found
historical role models among heterosexual communities
whose fate presented some similarities with the one of
gays.
One such group who was an inspiration to me were the poles,
whose country I visited and whose language I learned.
Another were the jews,whose sense of continuity and duty
towards their kids and historical memory greatly impressed
me.
I have the sad duty to acknowledge here that we gays are
still doing little or nothing for our youth,which remains
largely unatended.Part of this situation is to be ascribe
to the hetro regime,which recognizes us no normal and
unrestricted parental authority on top of denying us the
right to reproduce via artificial insemination.Part of
that same situation is unfortunately a tragedy of our own
making.
The departure of *some* adults to a gay independent state
would thus change basically nothing to the fate of gay
youngsters.They would remain no less unatended than they
currently are.
It would be for those gay adults who would have elected to
remain under het rule to take their responsibilities
towards our posterity.Much would depend upon their
motivations for prefering life in some liberal hetro
country to gay citizenship.
You are one illustration of such motivation,not necessarily
among the most honourable I must say.
Many gays remaining outside the borders of a gay
independent state would probably regard such a state as a
form of insurance policy against hetro mood swings and
unfavourable political changes such as happen all too
often in history.
What appears to you as a victory for gay rights may only
be a temporary situation limited besides to a handfull of
countries.Have you ever studied the neo-nazi movement in
such a liberal and open minded country such as Sweden ? It
is in some of its aspects even more frightening than the
north american neo-nazi movement.
The best guarantee against persecution is not a liberal
hetro state but a gay independent republic.
Not that I do not appreciate or trust the kindness of het
liberals towards us.But I have slightly more faith in fear
as a motive not to attack or persecute us.Attacking a gay
independent state would,if not entail a risk of death,at
least put the attacker in a situation of great danger.
Magenta
ezek...@mailcity.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) doth speak:
>Well, la de da for the Episcopissians! Where *are all our progressive
>churches, when it comes to the gay issue? We see them out there,
>rolling up their sleeves, taking to the streets, for *other vital
>issues, such as: racism, child abuse, women's rights, and the ecology.
>But they certainly seem to lack this sense of vociferous challenge,
>when it comes to speaking out for gay people. Sure, write something
>on a piece of paper, change a rule...but Jesus forbid these "liberal"
>churches would ever actually take to the streets on behalf of
>Thracians and Lesbians, as they do for *other oppressed peoples! It
>still comes down to foot dragging, Episcopisco or Nabisco.
Following are official statements against discrimination and/or for
the rights of homosexual persons made by religious bodies. This list
is not intended to be comprehensive; other religious organizations may
have positions which reflect similar concerns.
National Religious Bodies
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
1977 WHEREAS, homosexual persons are victims of discrimination, daily
losing jobs or being denied
employment, losing homes, being denied custody and visitation rights
of their children, being denied financial credit, insurance,
accreditation, licensing and other rights simply on the basis of their
sexual orientation or preference, and... THEREFORE, Be it resolved
that the General Assembly of the Christian Church (Disciples of
Christ) in the United States and Canada... urge the passage of
legislation on local, state and national levels which will end the
denial of civil rights and the violation of civil liberties for the
reason of sexual orientation or preference, and calls upon its members
to advocate and support the passage and maintenance of such
legislation.
1993 WHEREAS, various campaigns across the country conducted in the
name of "no special rights for gay lesbian and bisexual persons"
misrepresent legitimate claims for persons who seek equal application
of the law to all people and fail to acknowledge historical and
current discrimination in employment, housing, child custody,
insurance, probate, education and other civil and human rights;
additionally, these campaigns ignore ongoing violence and hatred
against individuals based exclusively upon their perceived sexual
orientation. BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that the General Assembly
encourage and support the enactment of laws at all levels of
government which will ensure the civil rights and civil liberties of
all persons, regardless of sexual orientation, and call upon members,
congregations and other manifestations of the Christian Church
(Disciples of Christ) to advocate, support and maintain the passage of
such laws, and work to change discriminatory laws, policies and
procedures where they exist.
General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
1978 There is no legal, social or moral justification for denying
homosexual persons access to the basic requirements of human social
existence. Sexual conduct in private between consenting adults is a
matter of private morality to be instructed by religious precept or
ethical example and persuasion, rather than by legal coercion.
Vigilance must be exercised to oppose federal, state, and local
legislation that discriminates against persons on the basis of sexual
orientation in employment, housing, and public accommodations.
1993 Resolved, That the 205th General Assembly (1993) unequivocally
condemns all discriminatory
legislation, such as is exemplified by Article 2, Section 30
(Amendment 2) of the Colorado Constitution. The 205th General Assembly
(1993) further instructs the Stated Clerk to communicate with
presbytery and synod councils, requesting them to notify the office of
the Stated Clerk of proposed or pending legislation in their states or
communities regarding similar discriminatory measures, so that the
Stated Clerk may communicate with state or local officials informing
them of the official Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) policy.
Union of American Hebrew Congregations
1977 ...homosexual persons are entitled to equal protection under the
law. We oppose discrimination against homosexuals in the areas of
opportunity, including employment and housing... we affirm our belief
that private sexual acts between consenting adults are not the proper
province of government and law enforcement agencies.
1993 ...The Union of American Hebrew Congregations resolves: To
actively oppose state and local referenda and statutes restricting the
civil rights of gays, lesbians, or bisexuals.
National Assembly of Religious Brothers (Roman Catholic)
1983 We the members of the National Assembly of Religious Brothers
wish to stand with all groups in their struggles for justice and,
...we believe that those whose sexual orientation is homosexual have
been discriminated against by society at large as well as in the
Church and, we believe that all men and women, including those of
homosexual orientation, have a right to a full life in society as well
as in the Church. Be it resolved that we are opposed to any unjust
discrimination against those of homosexual orientation in society at
large and in the Church, including its ministry, and... we the members
of the NARB take an active role, together with our President and
Board, in promoting legislation and other projects that favor human
rights and justice for all, including those of homosexual orientation.
The General Convention of the Episcopal Church
1976 Resolved, the House of Bishops concurring, that this General
Convention expresses its conviction that homosexual persons are
entitled to equal protection of the laws with all other citizens, and
calls upon our society to see that such protection is provided in
actuality.
The United Methodist Church, General Board of Church and
Society
We insist that all persons, regardless of age, gender, marital status,
or sexual orientation, are entitled to have their human and civil
rights ensured.
Central Conference of American Rabbis
1977 WHEREAS the Central Conference of American Rabbis has
consistently supported civil rights and liberties for all people...
WHEREAS homosexuals have in our society long endured discrimination,
BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that we encourage legislation which
decriminalizes homosexual acts between consenting adults, and
prohibits discrimination against them as persons...
United Church of Christ
1969 The Council for Christian Social Action (CCSA) hereby declares
its opposition to all laws which make private homosexual relations
between consenting adults a crime and thus urges their repeal.
1975 Discrimination related to affectional or sexual preference in
employment, housing, public
accommodations, and other civil liberties, has inflicted an
incalculable burden of fear into the lives of persons in society and
in the church whose affectional or sexual preference is toward persons
of the same gender. THEREFORE...recognizing that a person's
affectional or sexual preference is not legitimate grounds on which to
deny her or his civil liberties, the Tenth General Synod of the United
Church of Christ proclaims the Christian conviction that all persons
are entitled to full civil liberties and equal protection under the
law. Further, the Tenth General Synod declares its support for the
enactment of legislation at the federal, state and local levels of
government that would guarantee the liberties of all persons without
discrimination related to affectional or sexual preference.
Lutheran Church in America
1970 Persons who engage in homosexual behavior are sinners only as are
all other persons - alienated from God and neighbor. However, they are
often the special and undeserving victims of prejudice and
discrimination in law, law enforcement, cultural mores, and
congregational life. In relation to this area of concern, the sexual
behavior of freely consenting adults in private is not an appropriate
subject for legislation or police action. It is essential to see such
persons as entitled to understanding and justice in church and
community.
Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations
1970 Recognizing that a significant minority of this country are
either homosexual or bisexual in their feelings and/or behaviors;
homosexuality has been the target of severe discrimination by society
and in particular by the police and other arms of government;
therefore be it resolved that the 1970 General assembly of the
Unitarian Universalist Association urges all people immediately to
bring an end to all discrimination against homosexuals, homosexuality,
bisexuals, and bisexuality, with specific immediate attention to the
following issues: private consensual behavior between persons over the
age of consent shall be the business only of those persons and not
subject to legal regulations; a person's sexual orientation or
practice shall not be a factor in the granting or renewing of federal
security clearances, visas, and the granting of citizenship.
National Federation of Priests' Councils (Roman Catholic)
1974 BE IT RESOLVED that the NFPC hereby declares its opposition to
all civil laws which make
consensual homosexual acts between adults a crime and thus urges their
repeal; and BE IT FURTHER
RESOLVED that NFPC also express its opposition to homosexuality as
such being the basis of
discrimination against homosexuals in employment, governmental
services, housing and child rearing involving natural or adoptive
parents.
Progressive National Baptist Convention, U.S.A.
1994 ...The greatest theology and definition of God expressed from the
inspired writers of the Bible is simply this: God is love.
...Therefore, as Progressive Baptists, we declare the following to be
basic moral rights, and we will develop, support, study, and monitor
programs to assure these rights:
...The God-given and moral right to equality and social justice: to
have access to shelter, education and health care, and to secure
those things for others; the right to own and develop land within our
neighborhoods and communities.
...The God-given and moral right to human dignity and pride, to be
respected and treated as a person, and to be protected against
discrimination due to race, gender, marital status, age, sexual
orientation, income, national origin, legal status, culture or
condition in society.
Michigan Area
Executive Council of the Episcopal Diocese of Michigan
1993 Resolved, that the Executive Council of the Diocese of Michigan
seek to strategically prevent a measure which would jeopardize present
and future equal civil rights for all of Michigan's citizens,
specifically the lesbian, gay, and bisexual citizens of this State,
from appearing on the November 1994 state election ballot, by opposing
the petition of the Michigan Family Values Committee... And be it
further resolved, that the Executive Council of the Diocese of
Michigan urge the individual members and parishes of the Diocese of
Michigan to join in efforts to prevent this and any similar ballot
measure. And be it further resolved, that should the petition drive be
successful and the measure appear on the 1994 state election ballot,
that the Executive Council of the Diocese of Michigan urge the
individual members and parishes of the Diocese of Michigan to defeat
this and any similar ballot measure.
Lake Erie Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends
(Quakers)
1993 As Quakers we recognize that of God in everyone. We believe that
cultivating a deeper awareness of our relatedness to all persons,
everywhere, enables us to live more Spirit-filled and thus more joyous
lives. So, in keeping with the Spirit of Christ, by which we are
guided, we seek to recognize and include, as our brothers and sisters,
gays, lesbians and bisexuals, who suffer from exclusion and rejection
by many in our society and who are subject to derision and violence.
We seek always to heal the separations caused by intolerance; to
recognize the diversity of humanity; and to live in an ever more
loving and peaceful association with our fellow human beings.
Magenta
kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>On january 15,1998,Magenta wrote:
>
>>That is exactly why the gay adults should not [...] leave
>>those gay children to fend for themselves without a gay
>>presence in their culture.
>
>Where indeed was that adult gay presence while I grew up ?
>I had no adult gay role models.I had to seek and did found
>historical role models among heterosexual communities
>whose fate presented some similarities with the one of
>gays.
I had none either. But times have changed, and changed rapidly.
They DO exist now. That, once again, is my point- we are winning this
battle, and you would run from it. This shows you do not concern
yourself with the future gay generations, only your own welfare.
If you were concerned with the plight of gay youth, you would want to
stay in the nations where gay youth are born and change the societies
that surround them. But you find that task too difficult for you, so
you cop out. What you would create is not a nation, but a giant
closet.
>It would be for those gay adults who would have elected to
>remain under het rule to take their responsibilities
>towards our posterity.Much would depend upon their
>motivations for prefering life in some liberal hetro
>country to gay citizenship.
>
>You are one illustration of such motivation,not necessarily
>among the most honourable I must say.
Really? So tell me what is my motivation, and what is or is not
honorable about it. And be sure to include quotes from my posts to
back it up.
>Many gays remaining outside the borders of a gay
>independent state would probably regard such a state as a
>form of insurance policy against hetro mood swings and
>unfavourable political changes such as happen all too
>often in history.
Most would regard it as a petty collection of bigotry, not unlike how
most whites view white separatists. The fact of drawing lines in the
sand is wrong. If it is wrong for straights to draw a line to deny us
a voice in "their" countries, then it is wrong for us to do it in
"our" country. Two wrongs don't make a right.
>What appears to you as a victory for gay rights may only
>be a temporary situation limited besides to a handfull of
>countries.
Every human rights fight, including your own, would be limited to a
few countries. While I would fix the US and the EU, you would create
an exclusionary nation. Either way, an Arabic or Chinese gay would
have to move to get freedom. Neither approach changes that fact. What
I, and the vast majority of gays, propose is limited to a handful of
countries, including the largest and strongest ones, the US and EU.
What you propose is limited to ONE country. One small, isolated, weak,
closet-sized exclusionary country.
>Have you ever studied the neo-nazi movement in
>such a liberal and open minded country such as Sweden ? It
>is in some of its aspects even more frightening than the
>north american neo-nazi movement.
>The best guarantee against persecution is not a liberal
>hetro state but a gay independent republic.
But that is no guarantee against persecution. It is a guarantee for
MORE persecution. You would still have INTERNAL persecution over
assorted other imaginary lines in the sand such as racism and sexism,
and heightened EXTERNAL persecution from the other nations. Plus every
nation needs a piece of land. Exactly where would this land be? Last
time I checked, all of the land was claimed by one "het regime" or
another. By trying to take land away from one of them you have created
an instant enemy.
>Not that I do not appreciate or trust the kindness of het
>liberals towards us.
Tell that to your pal Ezekiel. He hates all straights with a
vengeance.
>But I have slightly more faith in fear
>as a motive not to attack or persecute us.Attacking a gay
>independent state would,if not entail a risk of death,at
>least put the attacker in a situation of great danger.
So you are planning on having this gay nation state become a nuclear
superpower with sufficient strength to fight of the US, EU, China and
Russia? On what plot of land again? With a population of people from
every corner of the earth, from diverse cultural backgrounds, from
completely different ideas on how to run a nation?
kin...@abacom.com
In article <34bedfcb...@nntp.sj.bigger.net>,
ezek...@mailcity.com_Z wrote:
>
> On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:16:44 GMT, lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) said:
>
> >ezek...@mailcity.com_Z (Ezekiel Krahlin) doth speak:
> >From your post to me:
> >
> >>The world is, of course, as you say, "composed of numerous diverse
> >>independent people". You apparantly accept violence as part of this
> >>diversity, and not something we should speak out against...especially
> >>when it comes to violence against gays. I can see it now: You're
> >>walking down a city street late at night, when suddenly you are mugged
> >>by several homophobic thugs who rip the flesh from your face, and
> >>butcher your body with the slices of broken, jagged-edged coke
> >>bottles. As you lay there, dying, you murmur to yourself, "Well, it
> >>takes all kinds, doesn't it!"
> >
> >That was sick. That was repugnant. That was inhumanly repulsive.
>
> How so? Many smug, materialistic people self-satisfied in their insane
> world, think things are perfect as they are, even when they get bashed
> by bigots. Your encouraging us to kiss up to a homophobic-based hetero
> majority, is far more repugnant than the graphic example of how your
> kind of ass-kissers cowtow to the majority.
I sincerely hope what you describe will never actually
happen to Magenta.
But if it did,and I guess that in the US it could be a
realistic scenario although a gruesome one,we would have
to reason and consider ourselves cleared on all counts.
Magenta has expressed on this thread a compulsive desire
to reside in the same country as hets and in the company
of the unavoidable fascist offspring originating from an
outdated hetro breedeing and rearing pattern which
obviously has no notion of social quality control.
If only het had expressed some intent to secede at least
from the biggots whom he denouces,or advocated the
deportation of those same biggots to,say,Alaska.But he
did not.
His reaction to your post illustrates that he is not
equiped to face the realities of this world.
Such muggings as the one you so lively depict *do happen*,
with some variations depending from the place and cultural
context.Magenta does not want to know it,and given his
mindset,is definitively not the kind of guy that could be
counted on to warn other gays of some impending danger.
I further noticed,while reading other of his replies to
you,that for a person claiming a jewish ancestry,Magenta
had a rather sketchy knowledge of his jewish history.Jews
living in Germany in the 20s and the 30s were largely
assimilated and integrated into the gentile society,if we
compare them with their brothers living then in Poland.That
high degree of integration made little difference when the
holocaust swept over them.Except perhaps that on account
of the trust they had put in their neighboors,in society
and in civilization in general,they either did not saw
what was comming or were unable to react to it as did
the last inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto or the inmates
of such death camps as Treblinka or Sobibor who actually
revolted.
Not that I advocate scaremongering.On the contrary,I
dislike those who peddle unconfirmed rumours.But the
holocaust or such other genocides which took place during
this century or before are certainly not unconfirmed
rumours.Given my knowledge of history and of world
actualities and politics,I could hardly follow Magenta`s
path,which is based on unrestricted and unwarranted
confidence in society and civilization.
We may have some rights in a few liberal and besides
affluent hetro countries.But insofar as the eventual
destruction of those rights entails no serious risk,and in
the current conditions it does not,these are merely formal
rights and not real ones.
kin...@abacom.com
On january 17,1998,Magenta wrote:
>If you were concerned with the plight of gay youth,you
>would want to stay in the nations where gay youth are
>born and change the societies that surround them.
It is the third or the fourth time you are repeating this,
and if you continue,I will fall asleep in front of my PC.
It is for guys like you to change society before gay
separatism gains momentum and ends up in a secession.Your
concern about gay separatism guarantees that you will
actually do something,and I hope your best,to change
society,and not remain iddle as I have every reason to
believe you would do without the threat of a secession.
So,do your work and do not tell me how to do mine.
>Two wrongs don`t make a right.
Please,no moral lecturing with me.I am an atheist.
>What I,and the vast majority of gays propose,is limited
>to a handfull of countries,including the largest and the
>strongest ones,the US and the EU.
That still leaves gays living beyong without protection,
no more but no less than in my own scenario.
The interesting part,though,is that through immigration,
the proportion of gays in the US/EU block you propose
could rise beyong the current 10%.
>Last time I checked,all of the land was claimed by one
>"het regime" or another.By trying to take land away
>from one of them,you have created an instant ennemy.
How do you think the US soil on which you probably stand
right now has been acquired ? Don`t tell me fairy tales
about american indians and white eureopean settlers
smoking the pipe of peace and signing treaties.Countries
are acquired by robery.
>Exactly where would this land be ?
That,my dear Magenta,is the kind of information I would
not communicate to someone like you,supposing that I
would have that information.
>Tell that to your pal Ezekiel.He hates all straights
>with a vengeance.
You could become my pal if you only ceased to make up,
glorify and support the hetro regime,to advocate our
remaining under foreign hetro domination and to burden
me with useless moral an sentimental issues.
Magenta
kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>I sincerely hope what you describe will never actually
>happen to Magenta.
Yeah, right.
>But if it did,and I guess that in the US it could be a
>realistic scenario although a gruesome one,we would have
>to reason and consider ourselves cleared on all counts.
>
>Magenta has expressed on this thread a compulsive desire
>to reside in the same country as hets and in the company
>of the unavoidable fascist offspring originating from an
>outdated hetro breedeing and rearing pattern which
>obviously has no notion of social quality control.
I expressed no such thing, not even in the least. Anyone with a third
grade reading ability would know I never expressed anything like what
you just described.
>If only het had expressed some intent to secede at least
>from the biggots whom he denouces,or advocated the
>deportation of those same biggots to,say,Alaska.But he
>did not.
WHAT?!? Did you read my posts at all?!? I NEVER advocated bigotry, I
NEVER advocated violence, I NEVER said criminals should not be
punished. What I said is that Bigotry IS BIGOTRY- if a straight man is
bigoted against gays, that is bigotry. If a gay man is bigoted against
straights, that is also bigotry.
Ezekiel and you are the only ones advocating bigotry and violence.
Ezekiel's post was offensive because he would even slightly think that
I or any other gay man would advocate violence against gays. THAT is
what was sick, disgusting and twisted about his post.
Anyone who hates gays as much as Ezekiel does has no business
contemplating creating a country.
>His reaction to your post illustrates that he is not
>equiped to face the realities of this world.
My reaction to his post shows that I am fully in touch with the
realities of this world- that all bigotry is a sickness, and all
violence is a crime. Your form of bigotry against straights is no less
sick than their forms against us.
His post shows that his grasp of reality is so warped that he- and
YOU- think that all straight people are violent attackers of gays.
>Such muggings as the one you so lively depict *do happen*,
>with some variations depending from the place and cultural
>context.Magenta does not want to know it,and given his
>mindset,is definitively not the kind of guy that could be
>counted on to warn other gays of some impending danger.
Not only do I know it, I have EXPERIENCED IT. I have been attacked, I
have been beaten for being gay. Unlike you, I did not extrapolate the
bigotry felt by my attackers to ALL people who just happen to be
heterosexuals.
You have not yet answered my question- write, in your own words, what
you think my position is. I am positive it will not be even slightly
close to what I have said in my posts.
Here is my summation of your position- All heterosexuals are innately
evil. They have a directive to destroy all homosexuals. Straight
parents never love their gay children. No straight person has any
desire to have gays have a full equal position in our society. Gays
are better off completely isolated from straights, even though that
means gay children will be raised in a straight-only world. Gays who
try to fight against bigotry in the "hetero regime" are attempting an
impossible task because of the inate inferiority of heterosexuals. Any
gay who thinks any straight is a kind, decent human being who truly
wants equality for gays is a butkissing uncle tom. Is that about it?
George M. Carter
ezek...@mailcity.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) wrote:
>Yes, you really are full of it, aren't you. God's little
>goody-two-shoes cherub spreading a false peace of hetero supremacy at
>the cost of gay liberation...sort of a homophobe's "Pax Romana".
>---
>Let's secede from those who breed,
>Make it sin to *not waste seed!
>GodHates...@HetBeGone.com
So basically your a Stalinist. Wipe out the heteros or run away from
them, pretend an isolated enclave could be developed filled with only
gays and replace one kind of bashing with another. Is that the gist?
Just where is this gay state to exist? And what about those folks who
are hets there? Kick them out? Buy them out? What will fund such a
venture? Will there be trade with the outside world or not? Will there
be tests for membership--what kinds?
Obviously, whether this idea is viable or not, separatism is an
illusion. And given that this is mostly a great deal of bullshitting,
we still exist in a world filled with bigotry. And until such a
utopian state (what system: socialist? autocratic? democracy?
republic?) actually forms, the rest of us have to live in the real
world. And that involves confronting institutionalized and other
homophobic bigotries and trying to stop them.
You might look to other separatist groups like various African
American groups that espoused these notions. Some of them are quite
noble and can be applied practically. But such separatist ideology has
not yet ever materialized.
Your perpetual cry that if hets or organizations (e.g., Episcopals) do
something progressive and one supports that then one must support the
hets or aspects of organizations that gay bash. This is infantile
thinking. It does not further the cause of a separatist state and
merely makes you out to be a wacky control-freak, trying to bully
others into buying your form of separatism.
George M. Carter
kin...@abacom.com
On january 18,1998,Magenta wrote:
>I expressed no such thing,not even in the least
[a compulsive desire to reside in the same country as hets
and in the company of their eventual fascist offspring]
You have opposed gay self determination and secession on
this thread.
Your opposition was persistent and definitively more
intelligent and articulate that the one I encountered on
another thread and in soc.motss throughout most of 1997.
Which leaves me with only one physical illustration of
what kind of country you want and advocate.
You want a country with hets and without any control on
entry,transit,stay,residency,breeding or rearing activity
of the said hets.You want to reside with those hets and
their heirs,as you do not even question their unrestricted
and unshared authority and property over new generations
of humans.
I see no inconvenient at you remaining on the hetro side
and settling alone the difficulties brought up by your
own misguided choice.
>I never advocated biggotry.
You have not supported secession from biggots or at least
their deportation,which would have been almost as
acceptable to me as outright gay secession.
I have some difficulty in assessing your determination in
relation with possible criminal proceedings against biggots,
but obviously you are not against their presence in our
midst.
Your attitude is quite similar to the one of US authorities,
who are taking no action against the Phelpses.Anti-biggot
as you may be,you appear to me as of a rather theoretical
brand,and anti-gay at that.
In Canada at least,the Phelpses would have long ago been
convicted and locked up under the heading of hate
propaganda.
>Unlike you,I did not extrapolate the biggotry felt by my
>attackers to ALL people who just happen to be heterosexuals.
Hets must accept their share of responsibility,which is
huge compared to ours.Society as it exists originated in
their breeding and rearing activity,and obviously not in
ours.
If some fascist dog beats me up,it seems to me that its
parental or social role models should also be called to
account,and eventually changes effected in the way human
beings are reared.
kin...@abacom.com
On january 18,1998,Magenta wrote:
>Here is my summation of your position - All heterosexuals
>are innately evil.
Their state and social organisation is on the whole evil.
Het individuals can be either good or bad.So long as I am
asked to live with hets only as individuals and choose my
friends among them,all is perfectly fine.It is their social
and state organisation that I can`t stand.
>They have a directive to destroy all homosexuals.
They certainly want no gays among their offspring.They
would undertake no breeding and rearing activity that
could lead to the production of a gay individual.They
would not allow us access to artificial insemination.They
recognize us no normal parental authority,not even over
individuals of our own kind.They are in most of the world
waging a war on our youngsters,imposing them the premature
and innapropriate role of adult fighters.They can provide
the said youngsters with no peer group.
While all this does not necessarily indicate an intent to
destroy us,it nevertheless points out to a clear design
not to contend with us in the future.
We could perfectly,and under the existing international
conventions relating to genocide,bring hets to trial in
the event of a secession.But we will not.We will content
ourselves in having them paying in territory,real estate
property and residency rights.
>Gays are better off completely isolated from straights
Gays would be better off iff all straights packed up and
left a territory which would thereafter become a gay
republic.
Magenta
kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>On january 18,1998,Magenta wrote:
>
>>I expressed no such thing,not even in the least
>
>[a compulsive desire to reside in the same country as hets
>and in the company of their eventual fascist offspring]
>
>You have opposed gay self determination and secession on
>this thread.
self determination I do not oppose. secession I do.
That is the distinction you miss. You think the only way for gays to
have freedom and control over their own lives is to deny heterosexuals
freedom and control over their own lives. You are under the impression
that the line in the sand is not just caused by bigotry, but must
exist, and you just want to flip who is on top. I say the LINE need
not exist, and we can all coexist EQUALLY.
>Your opposition was persistent and definitively more
>intelligent and articulate that the one I encountered on
>another thread and in soc.motss throughout most of 1997.
Thank you again for the complement, but I am aware of some intelligent
and articulate posters in soc.motss, all of whom I am sure would have
opposed your views.
>Which leaves me with only one physical illustration of
>what kind of country you want and advocate.
Because all you have the ability to illustrate is black and white. You
do not grasp the many shades of existence that would be necessary for
a national leader to grasp.
>You want a country with hets and without any control on
>entry,transit,stay,residency,breeding or rearing activity
>of the said hets.
Well, no more control than executed over gays, yes. Just the standard
rules of residency and transit like in most nations.
Each individual/couple/group (gay or straight) that creates a child
(gay or straight) would have the ability and responsibility to raise
that child, just as has been done for eons. Of course, there are
restrictions for abuse and neglect, nothing more.
>You want to reside with those hets and
>their heirs,
Being that I happen to be one of those heirs, yes. Here is a shocker-
my parents were heterosexuals. Two different races, two different
religions, and two different sexes.
>as you do not even question their unrestricted
>and unshared authority and property over new generations
>of humans.
WRONG. That is the great big ol' wopper of a wrong conclusion that you
draw because of your monolithic chessboard winner-take-all hitleresque
mindset. Would you like to go back through my posts and retry that
one, or do I need to repeat myself over and over and explain it again?
>I see no inconvenient at you remaining on the hetro side
>and settling alone the difficulties brought up by your
>own misguided choice.
Your misguided belief is that there is a "hetero side" and a "homo
side". There are PEOPLE, and some of those people - regardless of
their sexual orientation- happen to be bigots. Bigotry, in all of it's
forms, is the enemy, not an entire category of human beings.
Your classification of an entire group of people, who only have a
sexual orientation in common, as evil bigoted oppressors is NO BETTER
than straight bigots who classify us as an entire group of people, who
only have a sexual orientation in common, as evil sex-obsessed family
attacking child molesters.
Now please read the above paragraph twice, and write it back to me in
your own words to show you understood it.
>>I never advocated biggotry.
>
>You have not supported secession from biggots or at least
>their deportation,which would have been almost as
>acceptable to me as outright gay secession.
Exactly- I am against bigotry. You do not want bigots to be punished
or deported. You do not want to secede from bigots. You want to secede
from HETEROSEXUALS. Equating heterosexuals with bigots is bigotry.
>I have some difficulty in assessing your determination in
>relation with possible criminal proceedings against biggots,
>but obviously you are not against their presence in our
>midst.
WRONG. Completely and totally wrong. It is amazing how wrong you are.
>Your attitude is quite similar to the one of US authorities,
>who are taking no action against the Phelpses.Anti-biggot
>as you may be,you appear to me as of a rather theoretical
>brand,and anti-gay at that.
WRONG. Completely and totally wrong. It is amazing how wrong you are.
>In Canada at least,the Phelpses would have long ago been
>convicted and locked up under the heading of hate
>propaganda.
And I like Canada's laws about hate speech, and I wish we had similar
laws. Notice how such laws only affect BIGOTS who use hate speech, and
are not used to prosecute everyone who just happens to be
heterosexual.
>>Unlike you,I did not extrapolate the biggotry felt by my
>>attackers to ALL people who just happen to be heterosexuals.
>
>Hets must accept their share of responsibility,which is
>huge compared to ours.Society as it exists originated in
>their breeding and rearing activity,and obviously not in
>ours.
WRONG. Individuals are responsible for their actions, sexual
orientations are not. If two newborn babies are placed before you, and
through some wonder of science we could know that one was gay and one
was straight, would the straight child be responsible for the bigotry
of all heterosexuals that preceded him? Are all currently living white
people responsible for racial oppression and slavery, are all gentiles
responsible for anti-semitism and the holocaust?
NO. Individuals are responsible for their actions. To extrapolate that
guilt and bigotry beyond individuals to an entire group is BIGOTRY,
and makes you just as bad as them. Unlike you,I did not extrapolate
the bigotry felt by my attackers to ALL people who just happen to be
heterosexuals.
>If some fascist dog beats me up,it seems to me that its
>parental or social role models should also be called to
>account,and eventually changes effected in the way human
>beings are reared.
The clue here- the clue you missed- is ITS. ITS parental and social
role models. Not every single person who exists on this planet who is
not a fascist dog, who did not beat you up, who did not share the same
parental and social role models, but just happens to have the same
sexual orientation as that fascist dog.
If you think that only sharing a sexual orientation in common is
enough to believe that they share an entire ideology, then we must all
question YOUR parental and social role models. Yours, not those of
the average heterosexual, would be far more like those of the fascist
dog.
Magenta
kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>On january 17,1998,Magenta wrote:
>
>>If you were concerned with the plight of gay youth,you
>>would want to stay in the nations where gay youth are
>>born and change the societies that surround them.
>
>It is the third or the fourth time you are repeating this,
>and if you continue,I will fall asleep in front of my PC.
>
>It is for guys like you to change society before gay
>separatism gains momentum and ends up in a secession.Your
>concern about gay separatism guarantees that you will
>actually do something,and I hope your best,to change
>society,and not remain iddle as I have every reason to
>believe you would do without the threat of a secession.
Kingsix, there is no threat of a secession. You are an individual
internet lunatic, not a political movement. Even if you were to
attract a handful of nutcases like Ezekiel, you would not go down in
history with the likes of Washington or Mandella- it would be more
like David Koresh or Jim Jones. A bunch of nuts in a camp, hording
weapons and waiting for the feds to bump you off.
And while you and your secessionist commune are working hard to spoil
the good name of homosexuals everywhere, we in the real world will be
winning marriage rights and employment protections.
>So,do your work and do not tell me how to do mine.
Yours is not work, it is madness.
>>Two wrongs don`t make a right.
>
>Please,no moral lecturing with me.I am an atheist.
That is not morality, it is ethics. Atheists have ethics.
You, however, don't seem to.
>>What I,and the vast majority of gays propose,is limited
>>to a handfull of countries,including the largest and the
>>strongest ones,the US and the EU.
>
>That still leaves gays living beyong without protection,
>no more but no less than in my own scenario.
>
>The interesting part,though,is that through immigration,
>the proportion of gays in the US/EU block you propose
>could rise beyong the current 10%.
Actually, US and EU was a bit narrow of me- the free world is much
bigger than that. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South
Africa... and more nations becoming freer by the minute. Gay rights is
just one part of human rights, because gays are humans you know.
>>Last time I checked,all of the land was claimed by one
>>"het regime" or another.By trying to take land away
>>from one of them,you have created an instant ennemy.
>
>How do you think the US soil on which you probably stand
>right now has been acquired ?
Because a whole lot of white people had guns and took it from weak
defenseless hunter-gatherer native americans. What does that have to
do with you and a handful of loonies getting land from a nuclear
power?
> Don`t tell me fairy tales
>about american indians and white eureopean settlers
>smoking the pipe of peace and signing treaties.Countries
>are acquired by robery.
No fairy tales here- just hard, cold, reality.
Fairy tales are your business, not mine.
In the hard, cold real world- not your fairy land- all of the real
hard cold land is taken. Taken by people who know how to draw maps.
Taken by people with guns, bombs, tanks, and armies. So unless you
have your heart set on Antarctica or the moon, you are out of luck.
>>Exactly where would this land be ?
>
>That,my dear Magenta,is the kind of information I would
>not communicate to someone like you,supposing that I
>would have that information.
That is the supposition, since you have no such information, only
illusion.
>>Tell that to your pal Ezekiel.He hates all straights
>>with a vengeance.
>
>You could become my pal if you only ceased to make up,
>glorify and support the hetro regime,to advocate our
>remaining under foreign hetro domination and to burden
>me with useless moral an sentimental issues.
First, I would NOT want to be your pal.
Second, I neither glorify or support the "hetro regime" because there
is no such thing.
Third, if you think ethics and sentimental issues are useless in the
discussion of the creation of a country, then your country will be one
major hellhole.
And I think this sig quote fits you just fine:
--
+----- Peace & Love, ----+------- Magenta77 (at) AOL (dot) com -----+
| /| /| _ _ _ _-|-_ |"The same thing we do every night, Pinky; |
| / |/ |(_|(_|(/_| )|(_| | try to take over the world!" --Brain |
|_________ _/ __________|__________________________________________|
Magenta
kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>On january 18,1998,Magenta wrote:
[referring to Kingsix's concepts of a Heterosexual regime]
>>They have a directive to destroy all homosexuals.
>
>They certainly want no gays among their offspring.
Who is "they"? Is "they" every single heterosexual on the planet?
Is "they" even the majority of heterosexuals? Or is "they" just a few
bigoted individuals? My parents are straight. They did not disown me.
Sure, my mother cried for awhile, mostly because she thought she would
not have grandchildren. Now, like every good jewish mother, she just
wants me to find a nice doctor or lawyer and settle down.
>They
>would undertake no breeding and rearing activity that
>could lead to the production of a gay individual.
Well, that is easy to prove wrong. They undertake such breeding and
rearing activities constantly. You want proof? look around you. We
exist. We exist, and heterosexuals have not stopped popin' out babies
because of it.
>They
>would not allow us access to artificial insemination.
I am no legal expert, but I believe that varies from state to state.
Plus, that is simply a law that will be struck down, not indicative
that the entire heterosexual orientation is out to get you.
>While all this does not necessarily indicate an intent to
>destroy us,it nevertheless points out to a clear design
>not to contend with us in the future.
No, it does not. You described the present, not the future. Compare
the present to the past, and see how glorious it is. That will give
you an idea how wonderful the future will be in contrast to the
present.
>We could perfectly,and under the existing international
>conventions relating to genocide,bring hets to trial in
>the event of a secession.
That would be sick, twisted, and evil.
I am beginning to believe you ARE a gay Nazi.
>But we will not.We will content
>ourselves in having them paying in territory,real estate
>property and residency rights.
>
>>Gays are better off completely isolated from straights
>
>Gays would be better off iff all straights packed up and
>left a territory which would thereafter become a gay
>republic.
I would rather be Rush Limbaugh's boy toy then live under a
hate-filled regime like what you would create. It makes the bigotry
felt by gays now seem like nothing compared to how you would treat
straights.
--
Ezekiel Krahlin
I advise those so concerned as to my supposed "danger" to gay youth,
and our rights movement in general...to further familiarize themselves
as to my attitudes, by carefully perusing my web site. Since some
claim to perceive me as an enemy to gay rights, it would only serve
their interests to acquaint themselves with my literature, which they
can then quote, and use to bolster their own arguments (albeit
half-assed and without substance).
EZEKIEL KRAHLIN'S HOME PAGE FOR OUR HELLENIC FAMILY
http://ezekielk.simplenet.com/
Progressive, non-conformist lesbian/gay civil rights web site.
Eclectic, original, radical, hilarious graphic art and writing
... with no apologies to stuffed shirts or heterocentric
family values (including the conformist queer mainstream).
Pro-gay artistic contributions welcome.
Debate is happening fast and furious in this thread...a little too
fast for me to form new replies for another day or two. Meanwhile,
here is an essay I have posted previously, in both gay newsgroups and
christnet groups...and which answers some of the questions recently
put forth, regarding my opinion of Amerikan heterocentric society.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Permission granted by author for anyone to distribute this
writing free of charge (including translation into any
language)...under condition that it remain intact and
complete, including title and credit to the original author:
Ezekiel J. Krahlin.
ezek...@iname.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
I HATE BABIES
or
THE ROOTS OF HOMOPHOBIA
(no apologies to Jonathan Swift)
Copyright 1997 by Ezekiel J. Krahlin
(Jehovah's Queer Witness)
I hate babies. Pushed in our faces in ever-increasing
numbers up and down the sidewalks of our queer neighborhoods
in cute little pink and blue strollers, they are symbols made
flesh of heterosexist arrogance. These subhuman breeders are
the real perverts, for using their own children as front-line
artillery in this war on same-sex lovers. Their disdain,
hatred and (sometimes) fear is written all over their monkey
faces. Perhaps they will think twice about "strolling" our
neighborhoods, once an outraged queer wrests a pudgy, howling
blob of protoplasm from its stroller and tosses it into a
mailbox for overnight delivery. (Or once a basher is bashed
back and roped to a tree in a queer area of a city park,
entrails spilled onto his lap with a sign on his chest:
"Homophobe".) Don't tell me that you, queer reader, do not
also entertain such thoughts of retribution from time to time.
The historical roots of modern homophobia lie in the
early Hebrews' need to propagate in order to outnumber their
tribal enemies. Thus it became a heinous sin for any male to
"spill seed" outside of a woman's "vessel". Same-sex love was
therefore incorporated by their religious leaders to be an
abomination in the eyes of God. (Christianity's emergence
carried forth this heterosexist supremacy into modern times
with a vengeance so cruel, that it can only be deemed a mass
insanity or psychosis.) Perhaps this extreme measure was a
necessary evil, as a matter of survival to a tribe threatened
with annihilation by enemies on every side. But that was
several thousand years ago, and now we live in a world far too
populated for its own well-being.
Perhaps it is time for God to reverse the ancient law of
homophobia and declare it a sin *not* to waste seed. Perhaps
we should no longer "turn the other cheek" (to use the
fundamentalists' own Christian terminology), but revert to the
ancient Mosaic law of "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"
(or in this case, a baby for a queer). Perhaps it is time for
a "New Passover"--only this one for queers--sacrificing the
hetero firstborn of every breeder as Yahweh's warning to give
us our freedom. Perhaps the act of "breeding" (without strict
social guidelines) should now be made a crime punishable by
death. Enforced spilling of seed anywhere except in a woman's
vessel may be the "necessary evil" to save us from global
disaster--and will put new meaning in the phrase "turn the
other cheek".
Remember, homophobic swines: you do not *make* a
baby--only genetics (read "God") can do that. Woman is just
the vessel. It is how you raise a child that counts...which
has nothing to do with whether one's parents are "natural" or
not. As a matter of fact, the current rise in child abuse
(and neglect) by heterosexist parents, is so alarming that
even a test tube would provide a safer haven to these hapless
offspring. It takes no brains to insert rod A into slot B,
which is the only reason you illiterate homophobic simians can
breed at all. And the only reason most of you breed your
brains out is to assure each other that you are not
homosexual--with your fleshly offspring as your "Good
Housekeeping Seal Of Approval" to parade before us queers in
our own neighborhoods. Stop screwing, and read a good book
for once in your life.
-----finis
P.S.: I have even written a sci-fi tale about this New Passover,
entitled "The Mask Of Horus", which you will find in the "tales"
section of my web site. Or you can access it directly, at:
http://ezekielk.simplenet.com/write/horus.htm
Magenta
ezek...@mailcity.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) doth speak:
>I advise those so concerned as to my supposed "danger" to gay youth,
>and our rights movement in general...to further familiarize themselves
>as to my attitudes, by carefully perusing my web site.
OK- let's see his attitudes toward gay youth-
> I hate babies. Pushed in our faces in ever-increasing
>numbers up and down the sidewalks of our queer neighborhoods
>in cute little pink and blue strollers, they are symbols made
>flesh of heterosexist arrogance.
Well, that just about sums it up.
Zeke, Just what do you think a gay youth is
before it becomes a gay youth?
Here is a clue-
its a gay baby.
--
+----- Peace & Love, ----+------- Magenta77 (at) AOL (dot) com ---+
| /| /| _ _ _ _-|-_ | "There are none so blind |
| / |/ |(_|(_|(/_| )|(_| | as they that will not see..." |
|_________ _/ __________|______________________--Jonathan Swift _|
Magenta
ezek...@mailcity.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) doth speak:
[snip a bunch of crap]
To the group-
There are times when the homophobes in this newsgroup sometimes coin
the word "heterophobia" to mean anyone who is against homophobes.
We sometimes respond that there is no such thing as heterophobia, that
it is their made-up word, that the concept just doesn't exist.
We were wrong.
This guy is the Heterophobia poster boy.
Ezekiel Krahlin
DO NOT GO MAGENTA INTO THAT DARK NIGHT
flash essay by ezekiel krahlin
There is a certain type of queer, who devotes his time to cult worship
of Satan, Wicca, or some other blend of new-age and ancient...and
fancies himself all-powerful. Goddess have mercy on anyone crossing
this queen's path...he'll put a hex on you that--should it work--will
have you prowling the gutters in six tentacles, fifteen eyes,
voiceless and insane. (Good thing these spells never go beyond the
crazed imagination of the queen empress!)
These cults are numerous, under numerous names, but all share a common
thread: nihilism. In the boundless hatred that hetero society pours
upon the souls of gay people, some rebel in self-hatred, by turning
their agonies into a sort of black art (as it were)...similar to how
oppressed pagans began to mimic the Catholic Church by creating mock
masses; which in turn led them to be called "witches" by
self-righteous Jesus worshippers. And--just like these pagans--some
took this game so seriously as to turn it into a true worship based on
hatred and self immolation.
So, prior even to AIDS, we had a well-developed community within a
community, of Satan worshippers (and their ilk), that not only are
part of the gay community, but actually prey upon it. (Please keep in
mind that I am speaking within the social framework of AmeriKKKa,
only.) So that, in seeking to achieve the misery of a gay brother,
they found a sort of twisted ecstasy. And the more gay associates they
could injure, the more spiritually achieved they became (within their
own nihilistic perspective, of course). So what better scenario could
come along than AIDS...something which even the dark queers did not
imagine they could conjure up. The ultimate misery: of prolonged, and
excruciatingly painful, end days; even weeks, months, or years!. The
Mother Of All Soap Operas!
So beware, my true brothers of the light...that you may not be tricked
into falling into the clutches of these evil witches, who, I assure
you, are out there actively seeking to destroy your kind. And what is
your kind? It is: one who truly cares about the liberation of
homosexuals, from this homophobic society...and who would never dream
of injuring a gay compatriot. (I commend our Lesbian family which, for
the most part, has avoided such nihilistic trappings, and as result,
set a better example of same-sex love than have most gay men.)
On the other hand, is the witch, the queer witch, whose greatest
delight is conjuring--and (ideally) witnessing--the misery of another
gay, especially one who is *innocent. They play cruel and heartless
games in order to poison these innocents, their favorite tools being
alcohol and hard drugs. The innocents are often young, but not always,
and coerced (introduced) to the dark side of life, via cocaine, speed,
booze, and the black arts (in one form or another; there are even
*atheist varieties).
These witches revel in not just the misery and death of their gay
brothers, but even in the misery and failure of the gay community at
large...and even in their own agonizing form of dying. For don't
forget: they idolize the soap opera: and what is the soap opera other
than a fascination for the morbid and tragic? They will vociferate
about how much they care about gay rights, as they draw you into their
web with toxic enticements, and a petty society of bickering and
betrayal. (One way to tell them out, is they always promote
*assimilation into society, not separation...because they really are
against true pride of being gay. You can also tell them out, because
they're not really well educated on any topic, including history;
though they'll pretend to be.) And if you don't watch out, you will
become a jaded not-so-old queen just like them, seeking to poison more
innocents, and undermine in every way conjurable, whatever good
achievements have been made on behalf of gay liberation.
I predict that some day soon (within the early years of the 21st
century), this underground cult of many different names, will be
publicly exposed, and rooted out...with much ado in the news media. Of
course, the homophobic right wing will make the most of it in
attempting to justify the belief that all homosexuals are innately
wicked. It will be revealed in the news media, that approximately 20
percent of the active gay community (in Amerika) was composed of these
turncoats...those who practiced the black art with such hatefulness as
to think nothing of spreading AIDS just for a little nooky, and of
ruining the lives of those who trusted them in marriage, friendship,
work, and play.
But this realization, this expose, of an evil in our midst, will cause
a permanent schism of the gay consciousness, as well as open the door
to the rise of millions of gays across the world (until now,
closeted), to take a stand to show the world that most gays are decent
folk. And they will condemn, arrest, imprison, and banish their own
evil turncoats, who until their discovery, have worked incredibly evil
achievements to defeat and distort the honorable struggle for gay
liberation. (These turncoats would be as some Jews who became Nazis,
turning in their own people.)
We don't need to look any further than our own gay newsgroups, to find
these witches not just lurking there, but ruling over every
conversation that exists. They are property owners, upper middle
class, mostly WASP, materialistic, yuppie queer clones...for whom
complete assimilation into the hetero mainstream is their greatest
dream. For to them it means financial wealth and security, and
superior conditions over people of color, the poor, and all other
disenfranchised folk; including gays who fit those despised categories
(though they be the true homosexual majority). The AmeriKKKan Queer
Dream! We must also include among these witches, those who are *not
in their class, but nevertheless lick their asses, in hope of an
occasional crumb of recognition, power, or money.
And, if you don't maintain a stalwart presence in these newsgroups,
and persistance in views that you know are *right, these nasty queens
will pick apart every word you say, and you along with it (if they
can). I dedicate this brief exposition to a particular witch in this
particular thread:
Magenta.
---
Let's secede from those who breed,
Make it sin to *not waste seed!
GodHates...@HetBeGone.com
---
Ezekiel Krahlin
>So basically your a Stalinist. Wipe out the heteros or run away from
>them, pretend an isolated enclave could be developed filled with only
>gays and replace one kind of bashing with another. Is that the gist?
Well, all your remarks against me, have all been answered...either in
this current thread, or in a previous secession thread in soc.motss,
called "Seceding from the het empire". You may find, then, the gist of
what I say in favor of secession, in either of those places. If you
don't care to review them, then you really don't care to have your
challenges answered, and rebuked.
You can access the entirety of the soc.motss thread, on my web site,
at:
http://ezekielk.simplenet.com/extra/secede1.htm
Otherwise, I don't care to repeat my proclamations for the curiosity
of one person. It would also not be fair to other participants.
Suffice it to say, though, that all your callous remarks have already
been rebuked in my earlier articles...and why assimilationists like
you should be termed "queer turncoats".
kin...@abacom.com
In article <69u689$q...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) wrote:
> And while you and your secessionist commune are working hard to spoil
> the good name of homosexuals everywhere, we in the real world will be
> winning marriage rights and employment protections.
If I spoil anything,it will most probably be the political
or professionnal career of some gay friends of the hetro
supremacist regime,a mere collateral damage as far as I
am concerned.
I don`t think many progressive gays will weep over the
demise of your Log Cabin Republican ideology and
constituency.
You will most probably get your marriage rights,but your
marriage license will be worthless the moment you step
beyong the US and a few other countries.The same with
your employment protections.
You will have no guarantee against a change in the
political regime or a disintegration of the US induced
by an economic slump.
Of course,you may believe that this affluence and security
that surrounds you and which is indispensable to the
exercise of your rights will last forever.I hope,but I do
not trust that it will.
> >>Exactly where would this land be ?
> >That,my dear Magenta,is the kind of information I would
> >not communicate to someone like you,supposing that I
> >would have that information.
> That is the supposition, since you have no such information, only
> illusion.
It is merely an item of information among many others a
gay separatist like me would not communicate to an
influence agent of the hetro regime and government like
you.
kin...@abacom.com
In article <69u822$q...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) wrote:
>
> kin...@abacom.com doth speak:
>
> >On january 18,1998,Magenta wrote:
>
> [referring to Kingsix's concepts of a Heterosexual regime]
> >>They have a directive to destroy all homosexuals.
> >
> >They certainly want no gays among their offspring.
>
> Who is "they"? Is "they" every single heterosexual on the planet?
> Is "they" even the majority of heterosexuals? Or is "they" just a few
> bigoted individuals? My parents are straight. They did not disown me.
> Sure, my mother cried for awhile, mostly because she thought she would
> not have grandchildren. Now, like every good jewish mother, she just
> wants me to find a nice doctor or lawyer and settle down.
You are a US resident.Count yourself lucky and do not
generalize and extrapolate to most other nations or
countries your fantasies.The vast majority of heterosexual
parents throughout the world simply want no gay heir.
> >They
> >would undertake no breeding and rearing activity that
> >could lead to the production of a gay individual.
>
> Well, that is easy to prove wrong. They undertake such breeding and
> rearing activities constantly. You want proof? look around you. We
> exist. We exist, and heterosexuals have not stopped popin' out babies
> because of it.
The risk is low.Only one individual in ten becomes gay.
If it was the other way around,either all reproduction
by hets would stop,or we would have a phenomenon more or
less similar to the bumping off of baby girls in China.
Those who believe in the genetic origin of homosexuality
would screen their embryos for the "wrong" gene.Actually,
a het majority among humans is guaranteed by the education
setting and the social environment,which will break most
individuals intending to cast their lot with homosexuality.
It is no thanks to any intention or deliberate action
from the part of the hets that we exist.
Chad Lautner
Ezekiel Krahlin wrote:
> DO NOT GO MAGENTA INTO THAT DARK NIGHT
> flash essay by ezekiel krahlin
(a whole bunch of stuff snipped)
WOW What have you been smoking?
George M. Carter
kin...@abacom.com wrote:
>Magenta has expressed on this thread a compulsive desire
>to reside in the same country as hets and in the company
>of the unavoidable fascist offspring originating from an
>outdated hetro breedeing and rearing pattern which
>obviously has no notion of social quality control.
Huh? You mean there are fascists in America? Gee, what a surprise.
Some of them, guess what, are homosexual self-hating homophobes. Will
they be allowed in the new separate gay nation?
>If only het had expressed some intent to secede at least
>from the biggots whom he denouces,or advocated the
>deportation of those same biggots to,say,Alaska.But he
>did not.
Who will deport the bigots? What an idiotic notion.
>His reaction to your post illustrates that he is not
>equiped to face the realities of this world.
You want to hide from the world it seems.
>Such muggings as the one you so lively depict *do happen*,
No kidding.
>with some variations depending from the place and cultural
>context.Magenta does not want to know it,
Complete utter bullshit. I don't know Magenta at all, but from what
I've read the point is to assure that bashers are caught, busted and
appropriate justice meted out. (Personally, I preferably think that
some form of true, abiding rehabilitation makes more sense.)
>and given his
>mindset,is definitively not the kind of guy that could be
>counted on to warn other gays of some impending danger.
More bullshit.
>I further noticed,while reading other of his replies to
>you,that for a person claiming a jewish ancestry,Magenta
>had a rather sketchy knowledge of his jewish history.Jews
>living in Germany in the 20s and the 30s were largely
>assimilated and integrated into the gentile society,if we
>compare them with their brothers living then in Poland.That
>high degree of integration made little difference when the
>holocaust swept over them.Except perhaps that on account
>of the trust they had put in their neighboors,in society
>and in civilization in general,they either did not saw
>what was comming or were unable to react to it as did
>the last inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto or the inmates
>of such death camps as Treblinka or Sobibor who actually
>revolted.
The recognition of the horrors of Nazi Germany is absolutely critical
to remember. Always. That holocaust has never really stopped--it just
moved. But what makes you think that a separate queer nation would
somehow be protected from a nation, say the US, going extremist?
However, I think it behooves ALL queers everywhere to recognize how
quickly the shit can hit the fan. And awareness can be the first step
to preparedness.
>Not that I advocate scaremongering.On the contrary,I
>dislike those who peddle unconfirmed rumours.But the
>holocaust or such other genocides which took place during
>this century or before are certainly not unconfirmed
>rumours.Given my knowledge of history and of world
>actualities and politics,I could hardly follow Magenta`s
>path,which is based on unrestricted and unwarranted
>confidence in society and civilization.
Where does he say anything of the sort? "unrestricted and unwarranted
confidence in society and civilization"? Utter nonsense. The fact of
civilization must take into account the realization that IF a separate
queer state should form, it still exists in the context of one small
planet. What kind of defense would you suggest? The Mouse That Roared?
By the way--what color would the new queer state be? Would you include
men who have sex with men? Would log cabin repugnicans be included?
What form of government? You see, you guys are mostly talking out your
ass and then shitting on Magenta for not agreeing with you and making
up ridiculous crap about him. Sounds to me like you want a
cryptofascist McCarthyist state, frankly.
The Queer Nation or Queer Planet is FAR more seditious, in my opinion,
by the very fact that it exists in the sewn through fabric of the
entire planet and reflects men, women and transgendered of all ages,
cultures, locations and ideologies, from the vapid to the profound. We
are everywhere.
George M. Carter
George M. Carter
ezek...@mailcity.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) wrote:
snip...
>Otherwise, I don't care to repeat my proclamations for the curiosity
>of one person. It would also not be fair to other participants.
>Suffice it to say, though, that all your callous remarks have already
>been rebuked in my earlier articles...and why assimilationists like
>you should be termed "queer turncoats".
I may review the site. Then again, maybe not.
Defining assimilationist would be a good start. I have always lived on
the fringes of society, so I reject the accusation.
In any event, living in a world that includes heterosexuals is not the
problem, in my view. It is NOT orientation that is the problem
(although I have felt that heterosexuality on an overpopulated planet
is a psychosocial disorder.)
Living with bigots is the problem. And all the subtle forms that
takes, aside from the obvious horror of bashing or people like the
Phelpses. I'm talking about the "awkward social situation feeling"
that may arise--even if ever so gently--when talk of a same sex
partner is brought up among friends or family.
It would be nice to wave a magic wand and make it go away. I'm not
sure emigrating to a self-defined/established Queer Nation would
eliminate the interpersonal psychodynamics of bigotry. Would it
eliminate racism, misogyny, sexism or classism? If you could
reasonably manage all that, it would be nice. What happens if a mostly
gay man and a mostly gay woman fall in love? Would they be ostracized
or kicked out?
Anyway, like I said before--this queer nation in a particular place
ain't gonna happen. If you call trying to fight bigotry in the world
by being who I am an assimilationist tactic, then you will be like a
hamster running the spinning wheel. You'll get absolutely nowhere but
with a mess on your hands after all that mental masturbation.
George M. Carter
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 05:15:00 GMT, lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) said:
>OK- let's see his attitudes toward gay youth-
>
>> I hate babies. Pushed in our faces in ever-increasing
>>numbers up and down the sidewalks of our queer neighborhoods
>>in cute little pink and blue strollers, they are symbols made
>>flesh of heterosexist arrogance.
>
>Well, that just about sums it up.
No, what is summed up is your pinheaded inability to appreciate
satire, even when it hits you over the head. Satire is just too subtle
for your type of brainpan. No doubt you would interpret Johnathan
Swift's famous essay, "A Modest Proposal", as barbaric...when in fact,
Swift's diatribe was a satire exposing the brutality of English people
against poverty-stricken Irish immigrants. His proposal to roast
Irish infants, as a solution to the Irish populations, no doubt you
would take as literal, rather than figurative satire.
The other conjecture, is that my satire was *not too subtle for
you...but you choose to take my quotes out of context, even manipulate
them, in order to suit your own desire to look self-righteous. That
is such a low-brow tact, easy to see through for all but the most
dumb.
But like J. Swift, who used satire to reveal the barbarism of the
status quo, I do the same in my own satire, which I consider the gay
version of "A Modest Proposal". But of course, this is all lost on
your semi-literate perspectives. (My "I Hate Babies" essay was
originally published, by the way, in the now-defunct progressive gay
mag, "OutWeek".)
Further: I see you have avoided answering most of my important
rebuttals...you can't even debate your way out of a paper douche! You
just selected a few, simpler statements of mine, as if they were all I
brought up. You never responded to my examples of successful
secessions in history (such as Israel and U.S.A.)...how education does
not always redeem a people, but aggressive action against the enemy
does (as in declaring war against Hitler)...your inability to grasp
the important difference between heterosexuality and heterosexism (or
heterocentrism)...that Jews, in order to earn the respect they
presently have, had to fight a most gruesome war, which also included
their secession from Europe, and formation of their own nation...why
you, as a Jew, whose own culture did secede to create its own
non-gentile society (and also originated the horrible homophobia that
now thrives), would deny the same to gay people who have suffered just
as long as Jews...why you persist in perceiving a separate gay nation
as a failure, and choose not to consider any good coming of it (and
why this attitude is *not homophobic).
You have effectively ignored (or glossed over, at best), the *major
points I have made in rebuttal to your remarks (of which the examples
above were but a *few). This only supports my viewpoints, to anyone
who cares to read this thread. You are not only making weak arguments
in your corner, but inadvertantly giving credence to my proclamations.
One would think I'm paying you off, to play an opponent whose every
point is so frail, as to fall over at the slightest breeze of a
rebuttal by yours truly.
>Zeke, Just what do you think a gay youth is
>before it becomes a gay youth?
>
>Here is a clue-
>
>its a gay baby.
Perfect example of your flimsy rebuttals. Thanks for your support!
>+----- Peace & Love, ----+------- Magenta77 (at) AOL (dot) com ---+
Saying so don't make it so. Your Orwellian logic does not elude the
intelligent. And your contrived name of Magenta only encourages
others to perceive you as silly fluff...in other words, a gay
stereotype.
In less pathetic cases, I'd say "Quit while you're ahead", but you
didn't even start out that way. You are a retrograde queer, whose
concept of liberation is nothing more than complete assimilation with
the very enemy most responsible for gay hatred. No doubt, were you a
citizen of Nazi Germany, you (as a Jew) would be pleading with your
Jewish brethren to "hang in there", and do everything you can to
educated the Nazis, and to try to assimilate into their hateful
beliefs...that secession and even creating your own Jewish nation,
could lead to nothing but disaster, tragedy, and failure. I'm sure
there *were some like you...and we all know the results, with
historical hindsight.
---
Let's secede from those who breed,
Make it sin to *not waste seed!
GodHates...@HetBeGone.com
---
kin...@abacom.com
On january 19,1998,Magenta wrote:
>I am beginning to believe you ARE a gay nazi.
This is all too true that there actually exist gay nazis.
They are however to be found not on the progressive side
of gay politics which naturally includes self determination,
but rather in your own right-wing backyard and right in
the middle of the conservative ideological pigsty in which
you dwell.
I can`t resist naming names for that matter.Here is a file
for everyone to download,study and keep for further use:
"McKELLAR,John.In july 1997,resided in Toronto,Canada.Born
in 1959.In july 1997,declared himself gay.On december 2,
1996,a text penned by him and titled The Gay Fifth Column
was posted on the internet site of Canadian Freedom Site,
which is associated with the Heritage Front,and
organisation with neo-nazi membership and leadership;in
that text,McKellar,while declaring himself gay,also
declared himself opposed to all efforts by gays to have
their rights secured,under the pretext that such militancy
amounted to extreme-left activism.On july 26,1997 and in
Maple,Ontario,protested against the opening for a day of
the Paramount Canada`s Wonderland to gays set for august
9;distributed then leaflets with the help of a family
values activist by the name of Ken Campbell;was then the
head of Homosexuals Opposed to Pride Extremism (HOPE)."
One could prematurely conclude that this illustrates the
lowest point a gay in denial of our situation could fall.
Unfortunately,a gay can also deny his own identity and
sink even lower,as illustrated by this other sad example:
"HARCUS,William James.Last known adress (1993),the home of
his parents in Stonewall (no joke),Manitoba,Canada.Born
around 1972 in Stonewall,Manitoba.In his teens,had the
habit of getting drunk and then of beating up gays.In
february 1990,cooperated with the magazine Maximum
National-Socialism,which targetted among other groups
gays;said then that gays deserved to die from AIDS.Around
march 1990,started to have an homosexual affair with his
roomate,Dennis Godin,which lasted about four months.In
1990 and in Winnipeg,was a recruiter for the KKK manitoban
chapter.On september 8,1992,was convicted for sabotage of
a gay helpline in Manitoba.In the US,where he also had
political contacts and activity,once used the alias of
Bill McBride.
Mike Silverman
In article <34c32722...@nntp.sj.bigger.net>, ezek...@mailcity.com_Z
wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:52:00 GMT, gm...@ix.netcom.com (George M.
> Carter) said:
>
>
> >So basically your a Stalinist. Wipe out the heteros or run away from
> >them, pretend an isolated enclave could be developed filled with only
> >gays and replace one kind of bashing with another. Is that the gist?
>
> Well, all your remarks against me, have all been answered...either in
> this current thread, or in a previous secession thread in soc.motss,
> called "Seceding from the het empire". You may find, then, the gist of
> what I say in favor of secession, in either of those places. If you
> don't care to review them, then you really don't care to have your
> challenges answered, and rebuked.
>
> You can access the entirety of the soc.motss thread, on my web site,
> at:
>
> http://ezekielk.simplenet.com/extra/secede1.htm
>
> Otherwise, I don't care to repeat my proclamations for the curiosity
> of one person. It would also not be fair to other participants.
> Suffice it to say, though, that all your callous remarks have already
> been rebuked in my earlier articles...and why assimilationists like
> you should be termed "queer turncoats".
>
>
> ---
> Let's secede from those who breed,
> Make it sin to *not waste seed!
> GodHates...@HetBeGone.com
>
> ---
> My web site kicks (but never licks) butt!
> http://ezekielk.simplenet.com/
> mailto: ezek...@mailcity.com
The technical term for this person is "kook"
The mere fact that he is gay does not change this.
--
Mike Silverman -- cubsfan at turnleft.com -- Lawrence, KS
http://www.turnleft.com/personal
"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular" - Adlai Stevenson
Diedrich G. Kohl
On Mon 1998/01/19 05:19:47 GMT, in <69unop$q...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
Magenta <lo...@my.sig4address> wrote:
> ezek...@mailcity.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) doth speak:
>
> [snip a bunch of krahp]
>
> To the group-
>
> There are times when the homophobes in this newsgroup sometimes coin
> the word "heterophobia" to mean anyone who is against homophobes.
>
> We sometimes respond that there is no such thing as heterophobia, that
> it is their made-up word, that the concept just doesn't exist.
>
> We were wrong.
>
> This guy is the Heterophobia poster boy.
What a coincidence. I will now delete from my posting outbox
the article that I had already composed saying exactly the
same thing!
Do you suppose this is where Atilla got the idea from?
--Rick
Diedrich G. Kohl
On Fri 1998/01/16 04:37:38 GMT, in <34bedfcb...@nntp.sj.bigger.net>
Ezekiel Krahlin <ezek...@mailcity.com> wrote:
> Well, I guess because [Magenta] says so, it must be so.
Good, it's settled, because you're right: everything Magenta has
written is absolutely correct. You're a bitter heterophobic bigot,
and you're no better than a homophobic bigot.
The battle is being won. Gay kids today do not face the same
degree of intolerance and isolation as you did. And it will be
better for the next generation, and better again for the next.
Despite that, you'd rather give up and give in to the challenges,
declare defeat, say To Hell With You, and flee in sulking rancor
because of past suffering and because progress is not being made
as quickly as you (or any of us) would like.
You're a bitter quitter, not a righter fighter, Ezekiel.
In any case, your whole hypothetical idea is utterly ludicrous.
Among other things -- geez, where do I begin? -- I'll just pick
one point at random -- what the hell do you expect to do with
the 90% straight children who will be born to the gay citizens
of your stupid Thracian Athenia nation? Unless they all want to
leave home and emigrate to Heterothenia, you'll eventually end
up with a typical population composed of the standard spectrum
of human sexualities, just like the one you ran away from.
Now, go back to soc.motss.
--Rick
Ezekiel Krahlin
Magpie, I have excerpted a message from another writer, Ken McCarthy,
who is one of the main fighters against the hokey Stadium election in
San Francisco. He sent a Martin Luther King Remembrance message to all
who are on his mailing list. I find what he has to share, most
relevant to my outrage at queer assimilationists such as yourself:
---begin Ken McCarthy excerpt:
There is a dangerous silence today which
unintentially encourages evil to flourish.
Wasn't Albert Einstein right when he said:
'The world is in greater peril from those
who tolerate evil than from those who
actively commit it?'
Did not President Kennedy warn that
those who do nothing are inviting shame
as well as violence?
Will the nation ever forget the searing
impact of Rabbi Jochim Prinz's admonition
as he spoke at the march on Washington in
1963?
'When I was a rabbi of the Jewish comunity
in Berlin under the Hitler regime, I
learned many things. The most important
thing that I learned in my life - and
under tragic circumstances - is that
bigotry and hatred are not the most
urgent problems. The most urgent, the
most disgraceful, the most shameful,
and the most tragic problem is silence.'
A great people which had created a
great civilization had become a nation
of silent onlookers. They remained
silent in the face of hate, in the
face of brutality, and in the face
of mass murder.
America must not become a nation of
onlookers.
America must not remain silent...
- Martin Luther King, Jr.
May 20, 1965 - New York City
Address to the American Jewish Committee
---end Ken McCarthy excerpt.
---
Let's secede from those who breed,
Make it sin to *not waste seed!
GodHates...@HetBeGone.com
kin...@abacom.com
On january 19,1998,George M.Carter asked:
>Will they be allowed in the new separate gay nation ?
[mr.Carter is talking here about homosexual self hating
homophobes]
We could deny entry,residency rights and citizenship to no
gay individual.
We could always question and eventually refuse to recognize
one`s gayness,but not on the basis of one`s political
opinions.Gayness would be decided solely on the basis of
cultural factors.
A self hating homosexual homophobe could thus enter our
country and enjoy all its cultural aspects.
It remains to be seen however if we would ever admit such
an individual into certain inner sancta if I may say so.I
do not think an homosexual homophobe,or in fact any
unreliable gay individual,should get access to sensible
areas such as diplomacy,foreign service,intelligence,
defense or internal security.
kin...@abacom.com
In article <19980120031406$dri...@news.bctel.ca>,
"Diedrich G. Kohl" <dri...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> In any case, your whole hypothetical idea is utterly ludicrous.
> Among other things -- geez, where do I begin? -- I'll just pick
> one point at random -- what the hell do you expect to do with
> the 90% straight children who will be born to the gay citizens
> of your stupid Thracian Athenia nation? Unless they all want to
> leave home and emigrate to Heterothenia, you'll eventually end
> up with a typical population composed of the standard spectrum
> of human sexualities, just like the one you ran away from.
This subject was discussed in detail on soc.motss and on
the thread titled "Seceeding from the het empire" last
year.The answers to your objection are there.
kin...@abacom.com
On january 19,1998,Magenta wrote:
>You are an individual internet lunatic,not a political
>movement.
When I was a kid,I was told a whole bunch of things which
later proved to be untrue,among others that homosexuality
was a mental illness.
As a result,I became far less receptive to any teaching
or lecturing equating homosexuality,or for that matter any
social or political project based on it,as lunacy.
I certainly risk loosing my reputation while advocating
gay self determination.I will admit frankly that I do not
always enjoy being among the first to debate about that
issue.But I regard my little insignificant self as
expendable with respect to the cause of same sex love,
which existed long before I was there,and which will
still be there long after I have departed.
I have noticed,while exchanging with you,that you were an
incredibely naïve individual with respect to what had been
going on in past history and what is currently going on
beyong your US wonderland.
Back in the 50s and in the area I live (Quebec),québécois
nationalism did not exist,save perhaps in the minds of a
few intellectuals regarded by almost everyone as dangerous
radicals,and perhaps as utopians and why not while we are
still at it as lunatics.Four decades later,Quebec is on
the brink of secession from Canada.
>In the hard,cold real world [...] all cold land is taken.
>Taken by people with guns,bombs,tanks and armies.
In the hard,cold real world,no empire is eternal.Same sex
love is.
The US,for one,does not impress me at all.It has chosen,or
perhaps been imposed by historical circumstances,the role
of a superpower.It will disintegrate one day as did all
superpowers before it.It has no special merit that could
spare it such a fate.We are to be present politically,with
some form of international organisation,to have by one way
or another a slice of it (or for that matter of any state
structure whose time to die has come).
Time is on our side.May history protect our people and lead
it to self determination and statehood.
Ward Stewart
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998 05:21:14 -0600, kin...@abacom.com wrote:
>In article <19980120031406$dri...@news.bctel.ca>,
> "Diedrich G. Kohl" <dri...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>> In any case, your whole hypothetical idea is utterly ludicrous.
>> Among other things -- geez, where do I begin? -- I'll just pick
>> one point at random -- what the hell do you expect to do with
>> the 90% straight children who will be born to the gay citizens
>> of your stupid Thracian Athenia nation? Unless they all want to
>> leave home and emigrate to Heterothenia, you'll eventually end
>> up with a typical population composed of the standard spectrum
>> of human sexualities, just like the one you ran away from.
>
>
>This subject was discussed in detail on soc.motss and on
>the thread titled "Seceeding from the het empire" last
>year.The answers to your objection are there.
SEE Rick --- he has explained it before and therefore he is right!
You just don't understand Thracian logic -- just a little reading in
their preposterous posts will reveal that they have passed thru the
looking glass and are in a different world.
The misfortune in this is that the straight world may read their silly
stuff and assume that all of us are mad.
ward
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
"When I hear them praying extra loud, I always
go out and check the lock on the smokehouse."
Harry Truman
/////////////////////////////////////////////
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:12:23 GMT, wste...@hi.net (Ward Stewart) said:
>On Wed, 21 Jan 1998 05:21:14 -0600, kin...@abacom.com wrote:
>
>>This subject was discussed in detail on soc.motss and on
>>the thread titled "Seceeding from the het empire" last
>>year.The answers to your objection are there.
>
>SEE Rick --- he has explained it before and therefore he is right!
It would be offensive to participants, to rehash what's already been
discussed...and is also a matter of netiquette. I have saved that
fascinating and informative thread, on my web site:
OTHER VOICES / OTHER MINDS
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/7408/
Just scroll down to section KINGSIX: ON GAY SECESSION. There, you will
find most of Kingsix's articles from that soc.motss thread. Or, you
can access (from that same section), virtually the *entire thread,
called "Seceding from the het empire"...and read all other
participants' opinions, as well.
>You just don't understand Thracian logic -- just a little reading in
>their preposterous posts will reveal that they have passed thru the
>looking glass and are in a different world.
Homophobic society places the gay mind in such a looking glass,
obliging us to carve out our own philosophy and perceptions of pride
and meaning. I'm sure many found the idea of Jews creating their own
nation as "preposterous"...even during the pogroms of Germany in the
30's (and I'm sure some who thought it absurd were Jews themselves).
Personally, I despise assimilationists.
I'm sure many thought those radical upstarts of the 13 colonies, who
wanted to secede from King George's domain, were also looney.
The hetero world has betrayed Thracians time and time again. Much
saner that we find a way to create our own existence with dignity in
this so-called Looking Glass. History includes numerous tales of
secession by minorities, who overcame the greatest odds to establish
their own territory. And it is still going on. Why shouldn't gay folk
have a piece of this pie? After all, the abuses we suffer are
incredibly violent and oppressive...and have gone on for many
centuries. If any group qualifies its own nation--based on length of
oppression and extent of abuse--homosexual people are qualified many
times over.
Just because we are discriminated against for our sexual inclination,
does not make us any less worthy of our own sovereignty, than anyone
else. Being homosexual is more than an issue of what itches your
crotch...though sadly, many gays seem to believe that's all there
is...hence, they see their rights as minor, when compared to the civil
rights of black people, women, etc. So untrue.
Homosexuality perhaps should be renamed to Homoaffectionality...as the
real issue is the right to love or be intimate with another of the
same sex. This may not even have anything to do with sex...but
everything to do with how one chooses his (or her) friends and
intimate partners. I'd say that one's *affections are the vital issue,
not one's sex drive. This would imply that gay men would far prefer
the company of gay women, than of anyone straight (men or women)
..and sexual attraction is irrelevant, in this matter. It is the
matter of the right to be with whom you please, both in public, and in
private.
As homosexuals, we tend to create a different social dynamic that does
not include hetero bonding or traditional nuclear family structures.
Our diversity should be appreciated for its differences, which make
the society at large more vibrant. Instead, we are persecuted without
mercy, by heterocentric pigs. And as far as I'm concerned, I want to
be as far away from these bigots, as I can. I'm sure that, should a
gay nation come to be, many, many homosexuals would rush off to that
country...including many here, who presently oppose not just the idea
of a queer country, but even discussion of such, if it be in favor!
Having our own country would ensure some place on this planet, that
will always be protective of gay people...regardless of the fickle
whims of heterocentric societies, which give us our rights one day,
and take them back the next. And all because being hetero is God's
gift to the world...or so they'd have us believe. For what hetverts
(hetero perverts) get away with on abusing gays, such abuse on anyone
else would get them life imprisonment at best, the death sentence at
worst (or should I reverse "worst" with "best", in this context?).
>The misfortune in this is that the straight world may read their silly
>stuff and assume that all of us are mad.
>
>ward
I shall for hereon in, call you "wart", a far more appropriate
description of your essence. The main curse of homophobia is being
regarded as mad (insane)...so they already beat you to the punch, in
this matter.
If convincing the heterocentric majority that we are not insane, is to
be done by kissing up to the right wing power elite--as has our
President, by signing DOMA among other scurrilous actions--well, you
can just count me out. I am amazed at how many queers still regard
Clinton as "our friend"! Reminds me of that hackneyed saying, "With
friends like you..."
I doubt that you (wart), or anyone else for that matter, would
encourage a battered wife to remain in her relationship, and try to
"work things out" with her abusive spouse...even though she is
consistently bashed every time she challenges him.
This is how I see Amerikan society's relationship to gay people (with
gays of course, like the battered wife). We have made no more progress
for our liberation, than has already been attempted in the free speech
movement. Since that time, we have slid back mightily, and now find
ourselves in the same position we were in the early seventies. I care
not to play the same tired old game already played out...with
predictable outcome. You, Magenta, and other tired hags can go as
ga-ga as you want, over whatever slight achievements we have
made...but I, for one, care not to get all starry-eyed over the
occassional crumb tossed our way.
Your kind (conservative, right-wing gays), are so inured to how little
rights and respect we get, when compared to your average hetero
citizen, and all the privileges and tacit respect s/he receives just
for being het...as to not really have a good idea how horrible is our
situation as a people here in the U.S.ofAssholes. (Like a
kept-ignorant slave nurtured by a loving plantation owner, who is
totally oblivious to the real horrors of slavehood outside his limited
world...he grows old and dies, never once realizing the actual fate of
his people.)
Either that, or your material bourgeois comforts motivate you to wag
your tail and lick the hand that offers you crumbs. This would then
inspire you to discourage and suppress the majority of gays who are
low-income, and have never known the comforting amenities of middle
class affluence. You are a mama's boy, whose first devotion in life is
pleasing your mother (even at the cost of your gay integrity)...from
whose emotional and material tits you have never been weaned. In fact,
even in death, your stilled lips will be frozen on that teat...a hole
will be bored through your coffin, to accommodate.
Good day to you, wart.
---
Rumor has it that hetero males prefer half
domesticated gerbils over a female partner.
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:51:54 -0600, kin...@abacom.com said:
>On january 13,1998,Magenta wrote:
>
>>That feeling of yours that there is such a "hetro regime"
>
>There is no doubt in my mind about the nature of a regime
>which resorts to a hetro mean (het breeding pattern) to
>reach a mainly hetro goal (het majority and supremacy),and
>which is entirely dependent upon heterosexuality for its
>continuation and existence.Such a regime is an hetro one.
A perfect example of heterocentrism being an abusive system against
children, is today's news article from NewsPlanet. This idea that the
hetero family (nuclear or otherwise) is the best environment to raise
children, is not only false, but blown to pieces by the following news
item below. It speaks for itself...
---begin news article
Forced Youth Treatment Legal
NewsPlanet Staff
Wednesday, January 21, 1998 / 02:12 PM
SUMMARY: If one of your parents has you kidnapped, it's a
felony, but if both of them consent -- if they're sending you
off for anti-lesbigay brainwashing, for example, or other
b-mod -- it's legally for your own good.
You're awakened at midnight, bundled off with two large
strangers in a locked car for a 700-mile ride despite your
protests, and sent on from there to a foreign country where
you're held behind a high fence by people who can use physical
restraints, pepper spray, mace or a stun gun against you and
deny you any contact with the outside world. Have you been
illegally kidnapped and falsely imprisoned? Not if you're a
minor, the venue is deemed a treatment center, and your
parents agreed to it all, according to an Alameda County,
California judge who ruled January 20 in the case of David Van
Blarigan, a 16-year-old who didn't even have the opportunity
to testify on his own behalf. The case has been closely
watched by gay and lesbian groups because -- although this was
not the case for Van Blarigan -- often the subjects of such
forced treatment are young gays and lesbians whose parents
won't accept their orientation.
David was able to manage a phone call from the airport in
Jamaica before he was hustled off to Tranquility Bay, "a
behavior modification school." He called his neighbor Neil
Aschemeyer, an administrative law judge, who in turn contacted
Deputy District Attorney Robert Hutchins. Hutchins filed a
civil petition to require David's return to Oakland,
describing David's parents as "aiders and abettors" in the
kidnapping and false imprisonment of their son, and charging
that they exceeded the law in November by signing over all
their parental authority to Tranquility Bay and to Brightway
Adolescent Hospital in St. George, Utah (where David was
evaluated before being shipped to Jamaica), including
authorizing the restraints, pepper spray, mace, and stun guns.
Hutchins believes that at the very least the process by which
David was packed off to Jamaica constitutes psychological
abuse, and that David may be in physical danger.
The Van Blarigans are genuinely convinced that they have acted
in David's best interests, that he is "safer" in Jamaica than
he would be at home with them. They pay something like $3,000
per month to keep David at Tranquility Bay and continue to
correspond with him. David's father, Jim, says that sending
him away was the most difficult decision of his own and his
wife Sue's lives, but that they would make the same choice if
they had it to do over again. They describe David's problems
as poor grades, refusing to attend church, and disrespecting
them. He's been diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder, for
which he has been prescribed Ritalin. David's perception, as
stated in a letter presented in court, is that the family
relations were a "power struggle" in which he tried to
retaliate by hurting his parents for punishments they applied
which hurt him.
The parents' attorney Daniel Koller insisted that the order
Hutchins requested would constitute a "forbidden government
intrusion into the sacred domain of parental rights" and that
the situation was no business of the neighbor's, the
prosecutor's or the state's. As for the restraints, pepper
spray, mace, and stun guns, Koller took the position that,
"Just because it's in a contract doesn't mean it's being
used." In fact, he asserted that none of those methods were
being used against David.
Judge Ken Kawaichi emphasized that his rejection of Hutchins'
request for David's return represented neither "a stunning
victory or severe defeat" for either side. He believed that
Hutchins had failed to present evidence that David is in
imminent danger, and since the ruling was made "without
prejudice," the case could be reopened if such evidence is
found. (Hutchins believes there's no way to know whether David
is harmed or endangered without his presence in Oakland to
speak for himself, and he also said after the ruling that
"this case dies at this point.") Kawaichi does see a gray area
in the law with many questions unanswered, and is not happy
with the notion of an American citizen being potentially
subject to the physical "controls" without American
supervision. Some other California courts have recognized some
limited rights of teenagers to consent to or refuse such
treatment.
However, despite Kawaichi's perception, a crowd of about 100
parents who were in the courtroom in support of the Van
Blarigans definitely took the ruling as "a stunning victory,"
cheering and giving each other high-fives in celebration. Many
of their children are in facilities similar to Tranquility
Bay, while of course other minors were required to be in
school at the time of the hearing.
There were a few child advocates present, though. Loren
Warboys of San Francisco's Youth Law Center told the "Oakland
Tribune," "It's a sad day for children in America. A parent
can send a kid off to any place for any reason. There is no
rule protecting the teen-ager and that can't be right. There
has to be some restriction." Shannon Minter of the San
Francisco-based National Center for Lesbian Rights told the
Associated Press that, "You should not be able as a parent to
have your child forcibly abducted and sent to another country
against his will." Cathy Sutton, a parent who became an
activist after her daughter died in a treatment program in
Utah, hopes the dialog opened by the case will continue and
lead to government regulation of safety standards for such
facilities.
---end news article
---
Let's secede from those who breed,
Make it sin to *not waste seed!
kin...@abacom.com
In article <34c6508a...@nntp.hi.net>,
wste...@hi.net (Ward Stewart) wrote:
>
> On Wed, 21 Jan 1998 05:21:14 -0600, kin...@abacom.com wrote:
>
> > "Diedrich G. Kohl" <dri...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> In any case, your whole hypothetical idea is utterly ludicrous.
> >> Among other things -- geez, where do I begin? -- I'll just pick
> >> one point at random -- what the hell do you expect to do with
> >> the 90% straight children who will be born to the gay citizens
> >> of your stupid Thracian Athenia nation? Unless they all want to
> >> leave home and emigrate to Heterothenia, you'll eventually end
> >> up with a typical population composed of the standard spectrum
> >> of human sexualities, just like the one you ran away from.
> >This subject was discussed in detail on soc.motss and on
> >the thread titled "Seceeding from the het empire" last
> >year.The answers to your objection are there.
> SEE Rick --- he has explained it before and therefore he is right!
The issue mentionned here by mr. Kohl had been previously
raised and answered several times and in detail in the
past.The debate is preserved somewhere on usenet.I is
obvious that failing an intellectual effort,some people
will have to do a physical and besides a light one,that is
searching usenet,to get their answers.
I will not,just to mention another similar issue which is
sometimes raised on these newsgroups,explain one hundred
times to some stupid uneducated inhabitants of a certain
country located between Canada and Mexico that artificial
insemination exists and that we do not need heterosexuality
to go on existing as a specie.
If some individuals lack the intelligence and the
imagination to tackle the specific problems of social
engineering we will be facing as gays,they`d better
convert to heterosexuality right now.
> The misfortune in this is that the straight world may read their silly
> stuff and assume that all of us are mad.
It is not us gays who are wrong.It is the foreign hetro
social environment which is totally abnormal and which
imposes us abnormal conditions of living and processes of
thinking.
That gay conservatives are to be embarassed and humiliated
because some among us talk about evolution of mankind,
social progress,liberation,self determination and why not
secession from the hets inspires me absolutely no remorse.
Quite the contrary.
My sentiment at the sight of embarassment and humiliation
of gay conservatives is one of *joy*,which is a good
supplement to the contempt I already feel towards them.
Diedrich G. Kohl
On Wed 1998/01/21 11:21:14 GMT, in <885381567...@dejanews.com>
kin...@abacom.com <kin...@abacom.com> wrote:
> In article <19980120031406$dri...@news.bctel.ca>,
> "Diedrich G. Kohl" <dri...@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> In any case, your whole hypothetical idea is utterly ludicrous.
>> Among other things -- geez, where do I begin? -- I'll just pick
>> one point at random -- what the hell do you expect to do with
>> the 90% straight children who will be born to the gay citizens
>> of your stupid Thracian Athenia nation? Unless they all want to
>> leave home and emigrate to Heterothenia, you'll eventually end
>> up with a typical population composed of the standard spectrum
>> of human sexualities, just like the one you ran away from.
> This subject was discussed in detail on soc.motss and on
> the thread titled "Seceeding from the het empire" last
> year.The answers to your objection are there.
Indeed, I don't doubt that you have a rebuttal to every
counterargument, both practical and ideological, to your
thoroughly-thrilling theoretical Thracian-Nation notion.
Thank you for the pointer, I'm sure, but I think I'll pass.
I'm afraid I have a rather limited appetite for hypothetical
debates about absurd, far-fetched, impractical, hypothetical
scenarios. (Perhaps some evening when the video store has no
copy of `Brigadoon' available for rental.) Anyway, right now
I still have tonight's taped episode of the hilarious hetero
comedy `Dharma & Greg' to watch.
Don't tell me -- I'll bet you're in favour of the secession
of Québec too.
--Rick
kin...@abacom.com
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) said:
>
> ezek...@mailcity.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) doth speak:
>
> >Well, la de da for the Episcopissians! Where *are all our progressive
> >churches, when it comes to the gay issue? We see them out there,
> >rolling up their sleeves, taking to the streets, for *other vital
> >issues, such as: racism, child abuse, women's rights, and the ecology.
> >But they certainly seem to lack this sense of vociferous challenge,
> >when it comes to speaking out for gay people. Sure, write something
> >on a piece of paper, change a rule...but Jesus forbid these "liberal"
> >churches would ever actually take to the streets on behalf of
> >Thracians and Lesbians, as they do for *other oppressed peoples! It
> >still comes down to foot dragging, Episcopisco or Nabisco.
>
> Following are official statements against discrimination and/or for
> the rights of homosexual persons made by religious bodies. This list
> is not intended to be comprehensive; other religious organizations may
> have positions which reflect similar concerns.
>
> National Religious Bodies
>
> Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
>
> 1977 WHEREAS, homosexual persons are victims of discrimination, daily
> losing jobs or being denied
> employment, losing homes, being denied custody and visitation rights
> of their children, being denied financial credit, insurance,
> accreditation, licensing and other rights simply on the basis of their
> sexual orientation or preference, and... THEREFORE, Be it resolved
> that the General Assembly of the Christian Church (Disciples of
> Christ) in the United States and Canada... urge the passage of
> legislation on local, state and national levels which will end the
> denial of civil rights and the violation of civil liberties for the
> reason of sexual orientation or preference, and calls upon its members
> to advocate and support the passage and maintenance of such
> legislation.
>
You gave quite a huge body of text, quoting steps in favor of gay
equality, by a number of churches. But this is just on paper...I see
no major church that has actually resisted homophobia in the streets,
in the media, or even in the pulpits, for that matter. There is no
vociferous condemnation of homophobia by any major, progressive
church, anywhere (that I know of)...that even comes close to their
adamant opposition of other civil rights issues. We remain,
basically, dirt in their eyes...for in their silence, they give more
fuel to the aggressively homophobic churches that preach, and carry
out, discrimination and violence of the worst kind, to gay people.
Furthermore, half your citings were dated in the early 1970's...and if
these small changes on paper really were effective, then why are we
still fighting for our rights, in the same situations as back then?
We have made virtually *no progress...just been chasing our own tails
in smaller and smaller circles. Fortunately, another participant in
this newsgroup, Tom Keske, has done his homework regarding the
churches, in particular the Catholic Church. I will take the liberty
of re-posting his statements from another thread, to this one...as I
believe he states better than I could, exactly the situation gays are
in with regard to mainstream religious groups. (And he also pops your
bubble regarding just how accepting AmeriKKKa has become of gay
people, and the so-called wonderful advances we have made. As I
commented previously, I don't get hysterically celebratory as you do,
over the occassional crumbs tossed my way by pig hets.)
---begin excerpt
Subject: More Catholic Record
From: trk...@aol.com (TRKeske)
Date: 1998/01/14
Message-ID: <19980114034...@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
MORE CATHOLIC RECORD
As I said about hypersensitivity- here comes the predictable
reaction that criticism of the Catholic Church is automatically
"singling out" Catholics. The critics do not wait around long
to behold similar criticisms coming in due time for most of
religion. In fact there is a criticism coming for the entire
readership of gaynet, which has devoted more energy to
issues like "sex in public places" than it has to discussing
the horrors faced by the courageous gays of Zimbabwe, who
desperately need our help. It is a slightly spoiled and
self-centered set of warped priorities, which we need to
adjust.
I didn't really care to discuss Catholics at all, but a critic
saw a couple, passing critical references in a post relating
to Zimbabwe, and simply could not let such a horrible
thing go by, unchallenged. The Pope has everyone from
Bob Dylan to Fidel Castro flattering his ego, has Newsweek
calling him a "mystical man of God." How awful that he
should have to put up with a couple bitter words from one
gay man on a internet newsgroup, not that he likely to be
reading, anyway.
But, since we've started on the Catholic Church, let's have
another round of the shameful background that the Catholic
Church continues today, in its official attitudes toward gays.
The media pretends that the Pope's anti-gay attitudes are at most
a minor flaw on an otherwise sterling character, not
worth making much fuss about, and certainly not enough to
cause a reassessment of the man. This is not a minor
flaw- it is a serious, malignant problem, just as anti-Semitism
was before WWII. It is a merely disgust with
this situation, not for hatred against Catholics, that compels
me to relate this litany of shameful facts:
* In a 1936, the Catholic primate of Poland wrote a pastoral
letter intended to give moral guidance to the Polish people.
In it, he said "There will be a Jewish problem as long as the
Jews remain. It is a fact that the Jews are fighting against
the Catholic Church, persisting in free thinking, and are the
vanguard of godlessness, Bolshevism, and subversion."
Today, it's gays who are "morally disordered", whose
marriages would be a threat to the very foundations of
civilization.
* In America in 1936, Father Charles Coughlin was an
open admirer of Hitler and Mussolini. He called FDR a
"liar" and "anti-God". Even though the Church eventually
had to silence him, he had a radio audience of some
15 million people.
In Italy, Catholic clergy kissed the ring of Mussolini.
Hitler, incidentally, had been raised as a Catholic, had
attended Catholic school, and was an altar boy.
In recent times, in Italy, a neofascist proclaimed that he
was "more Catholic than the Pope" and that "gays lead
terrible lives, and should be put in concentration camps."
The silence from the wonderful Pope was deafening.
* 500 years too late, the Catholic Church finally apologized
for persecuting Galileo.
They have apologized to Jews.
Of course, they have yet to apologize to gays for having
ever burned us at the stake.
* Of course, persecuting Galileo was downright sensible,
compared to Pope Innocent, who condemned all the cats
of Europe to death, charging them to be the accomplices of
witches.
Cats, obviously, were even more evil than homosexuals.
* There are good Catholics- one is Bishop Jacques Gaillot of
France, who called for greater tolerance of gays. Such good
Catholics are, however, mavericks bucking the Vatican. The
French bishop was removed.
The South American bishop who "joked" that gays should be
be put in concentration camps, was not removed.
* Bishop Jorge Novak of Brazil said that his Church was an
accomplice of the military in the 1970s "dirty war" of torture
an murder. According to a Boston Globe article (Reuters),
"new evidence of church collaboration in the 1976-1983
regime that killed 4000 people and left 10,000 disappeared
has come from the recent confessions of Army Chief
Martin Balza."
A navy captain who admitted torturing detainees said that
the church was consulted on how to "dispose of" detainees.
* The Pope offended Serbs by canonizing a man who had
collaborated with Nazis, and practiced forced conversion
to Catholicism.
* The Pope was a personal friend of Wolf Smuzness, the
dubious doctor who headed the New York experimental
hepatitis B vaccine trials, preceding the AIDS epidemic.
I refrained from mentioning this when I wrote about
Smuzness earlier, not wishing to promote "guilt by
association." The obnoxious folks who find it a higher
priority to criticize me than to criticize the Catholic Church
has left me feeling a bit less charitable.
It is not a mystery why this association adds a further twinge of
discomfort. It is clear that this Pope has hinted even at violence
against us, when he declares that "society should not be
surprised" by such violence.
* In Vietnam, Catholic priests spread the rumor that "the Virgin
Mary has gone South", and that Catholic Vietnamese should
follow her, because "infidels" who stayed would be wiped out
with atom bombs. When they did so, the Catholic Diem
regime shot and jailed these "ungrateful people".
* In South Boston, Irish gays were not Irish enough or
Catholic enough to march in the St. Patrick's parade. Signs
read "God says to Kill Fags." There was no attempt to
condemn this bigotry by the Catholic leadership in the
state, only to condemn gays.
* In Massachusetts, we have had gay students attacked,
dog feces thrown at them, their shirts soaked in spit. When
the state because the first in the nation to protect gay
students, the reaction of the state's main Catholic newsgroup
was merely to rail about the horrible sneak attack to advance
"the gay agenda." Not even these nauseating attacks against
mere kids were enough to elicit a glimmer of sympathy.
* In Rhode Island, a gay man was fired from his job at an
insurance company simply because he publicly advocated
a proposed gay rights bill providing against employment
discrimination. A Catholic priest defended the firing as
reflection of a "sacred principle."
* Pat Buchanan has said that "Hitler is a man of great courage",
and admired McCarthy for "beating the hell out of people who
deserved to have the hell beaten out of them." He talks about
the "thrashing" that gay rights deserves.
In the national Catholic weekly, the Wanderer, the American
Catholic Lawyers Association launched a vigorous defensive
of Buchanan as being in line with Church teachings, ridiculing
attempts by the "liberal media" to "discredit" Buchanan.
+ + +
The above is a sampling of the good news. The bad news is
that the Catholic Church is probably an example of more
tame, responsible homophobia than are many other factions
of the Christian Right, or Muslims, or various other religious
groups.
It isn't too relevant to me, how many times the Pope has
actually invoked the doctrine of papal infallibility. The point
is that excessive religious certainty is a destructive force in
the world, and must be criticized, not coddled. Like the little
boy who saw the naked emperor, I will observe that perhaps
they invoke it so infrequently because they know perfectly
well that it isn't true. They merely are too proud to dare
to do an about-face. Instead of damaging credibility with
an embarrassing reversal, they will perpetuate a little bit
of insanity, instead.
I am not in favor of gratuitous insults. At a Halloween
party last fall, "best costume" was voted for a good friend
who dressed as Mother Teresa, on roller skates, with
an ape mask. A couple friends from Dignity were offended.
I didn't personally take offense, but would have skipped it
as poor taste.
I went as the Grim Reaper, which is how I increasing feel
my role, because it is my duty to say things like this:
The Catholic Church is doing today very much what it
did with Jews before the Holocaust, being even more
obscene in that the Pope repeats the role, all the while
proclaiming "Never Again".
This is not a small matter. The human race, in my opinion,
cannot hope to survive, if this the best that we can do.
As the press endlessly gushes over the Pope, it also gushes
over Secretary of State Albright, how wonderful is her
compassion, how many babies she kisses. A Jewish woman,
you might hope that a cue of some kind would be taken,
at the sight of books burning in Zimbabwe, angry mobs
chanting "We will kill you".
Yet, she fondly touches hands with Mugabe, offers financial
aid to Zimbabwe, no strings attached or preconditions relating
to human rights, not so much as uttering the "g" word.
We simply do not matter enough to mention by name.
In WWII, the Catholic Church belatedly issued a weak
statement condemning persecution, not mention the Jews
by name.
In a survivable world, a torrent of world indignation would
gently persuade Mugabe to change his tune. As it is,
we appear to need to do what we can, mostly on our own.
It is absurd to complain about it being "illegal" for gays
to think of backing opposition leaders. As I said, nothing
was "legal" for Oliver North, either, yet he got his way.
Fund raisers were held, wealthy conservatives and businessmen
donated by the hundreds.
Even if you don't run arms yourself, you can donate money to groups
with titles like "Zimbabwe Freedom Foundation", and not worry
about unproven rumors as to how they spend it. We have every
moral right to do this, legality be damned, and so can supposed
gays who want to fuss about it.
There are small glimmers of hope. It took 20 years before my
lover and I visited his Catholic family for Christmas, as a couple.
As we broke little pieces of bread and wished each other well,
I wished that the modest acceptance could become more the
rule in all churches. Gentle nudging, blunt criticisms,
raising funds for rebels- whatever it takes, we must provide.
Tom Keske
Boston, Mass.
---end excerpt
---
Let's secede from those who breed,
Make it sin to *not waste seed!
GodHates...@HetBeGone.com
---
Ezekiel Krahlin
On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, lo...@my.sig4address (Magenta) said:
> Following are official statements against discrimination and/or for
> the rights of homosexual persons made by religious bodies. This list
> is not intended to be comprehensive; other religious organizations may
> have positions which reflect similar concerns.
Here are two more essays by Tom Keske, worth repeating in this thread,
considering its relevance to our discussions of assimilation vs.
separation. I believe Tom has a clear view of gay politics in today's
world, both here in Amerika and abroad.
---begin essay 1 of 2-----
Subject: History Repeats
From: trk...@aol.com (TRKeske)
Date: 1998/01/22
Message-ID: <19980122014...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality
HISTORY REPEATS
In July 1936, a Czechoslovakian Jew committed suicide in front
of the League of Nations. Letters in his briefcase explained that
he was trying to draw attention to the plight of Jews.
No one paid much attention then, very few remember at all,
now. Did you?
But I remember, because it reminds me so much of the gay
man who set himself ablaze in St. Peter's square, and attempted
to rush toward the basilica.
I scoured my newspaper to see what they would say about it.
Nothing- no so much as a "news brief". Similarly, they
said nothing about the string of anti-gay killings in Rome,
much less in our own country. Similarly they said
nothing whatever when a Utah high school student was
tormented into committing suicide last year.
However, when it serves their own agenda, it is a different
story. The anti-Castro fasting religious protesters merited
nearly full-page coverage. The media fawned as usual,
how the Pope brought a "message of hope and truth" to Cuba.
Little hope did the Pope bring to gays, anywhere in this world.
The Vatican claimed that the letter found on the gay man
"in no way affirms that his gesture was prompted by his
presumed homosexuality or as a protest against the Church."
Years ago, I had seriously considered a similar self-immolation
protest. I am now so glad that I didn't, as I can see how such
self-sacrificial styles of appealing to moral conscience would be
utterly wasted on the kinds of indifferent swine with which we
are dealing, in our government, in the media, in many religious
institutions.
History repeats, right under our noses, yet few see, even as they
say "Never Again". The books of the GALZ group burned in
Zimbabwe, as mobs chanted for our death, just as books
burned in Nazis Germany.
In Austria, a Catholic newspaper recently compared homosexuals
to "rats"- precisely the comparison that Nazis used against Jews
in their propaganda film, "The Eternal Jew."
The Austrian Catholic paper said that gays should be punished
with "whips and bull pizzles". Not even did the anti-Semitic
Father Coughlin's hate radio program engage in rhetoric more
ugly, before WWII. Father Coughlin, at least, was eventually
silenced by the Church, which showed more conscience toward
Jews in those times than the Vatican is showing toward gays,
today.
In Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe called us less than "pigs and dogs".
In 1938, a Polish Jewish teenager shot a German diplomat, and
said "I am not a dog. Wherever I have gone, I have been chased
like an animal."
U.S. Secretary of State Albright, a Jewish woman, took no
clue from the burning books, the "dog" references. She
touched hand with a smiling Mugabe, promising financial
aid to his country, no mention of the word "gay".
My newspaper has glowed about Albright, how she has
"shined" in her role.
A circus of the utterly, utterly damned. As I have long said,
eventually history will repeat itself with a major war, more
destructive than WWII, in progression, as WWII was
more destructive than WWI. Homosexuals will be to that war
what Jews were to WWII. Just as the Vatican and the American
press managed to remain blind to the Holocaust, they will be
blind once against to a covered-up genocide, right under their
noses.
The world being what it is, I increasingly wonder how much I
really even care.
Human beings cannot resolve their differences because they are
all so much the same. The only common ground that they will
find is the ground that they are buried in. The only peace that
they will find is the Peace that they Rest In.
If this is the best that we can do, then so be it.
Tom Keske
Boston, Mass.
---end essay 1 of 2-----
---begin essay 2 of 2-----
From alt.politics.homosexualtiy
2/7/97
========
HELMS: CIVIL WAR, NOT CIVILITY
As if the gay community hasn't patiently put up with enough
from Senator Helms. The "damned lesbian" remark. The
"needing a bodyguard" remark. Now, he announces that gay
people "have the morals of alley cats."
If a U.S. Senator said that black men had the "morals of alley
cats", most of America would have little surprise if it led to
instant rioting. No justifications of the belief, no citing
of statistics about black incarceration rates, or illegitimate
births, or rates of AIDS infection, or drug use would make the
least bit of difference. The reaction would be shock,
disbelief, and cries of outrage. The Senator, one way or
another, would be pressured out of office.
Have you ever once in your life read an editorial
acknowledging that gays are enduring provocations of a
severity of which other minorities would not even dream, in
current times? Have you ever read an editorial praising gays
for their peacefulness in the face of such provocation?
The public at large feels that we have no grievance against
them, because most of them are not as extreme as Helms. At
some point, however, the public must be held accountable for
being so jaded that outright hate-mongering on the part of a
U.S. Senator produces barely a stir from them. At some point,
the general public is to answer for the fact that such a man
has endured in his career for decades and risen to such an
elevated position as to be Chairman of the Senate Foreign
Relations Committee.
This has hardly been the only provocation out of the
Republican Party and the U.S. Congress. Congressman Bob
Dornan has said such things as "Don't say the word 'gay' to
me, unless you mean 'Got AIDS Yet?", and "I wouldn't trust a
homosexual with 5 dollars." Dornan associates with Dr. Paul
Cameron, who wants to put gay people in concentration camps, a
fact which the mainstream press has not even reported.
Never has the GOP leadership publicly rebuked Jesse Helms, or
many other, similar members of their party. Instead, House
Speaker Newt Gingrich actually encouraged Bob Dornan to stay
on, when Dornan was contemplating retirement.
Anti-gay bigotry is not the worst fault of Senator Helms. He
complains about the love lives of gays, but he himself is a
lover of death squad leaders. He praised Robert D'Aubuisson
of the El Salvador Death Squads as being a "deeply religious
man." He was a personal friend to Augusto Pinochet of Chile,
whose regime used such torture methods as bayonets shoved up
the vaginas of women. He has a characteristic pattern of
support and friendship for right-wing militaries that engage
in wholesale killing and torture.
If Senator Helms has not committed violence personally, it is
merely because he has others to do his will. His hands are
covered with the blood of innocents, by the thousands, in
South America.
Senator Helms is a threat to the lives and liberty of every
gay man and woman in America. He has previously introduced
legislation that would have denied gay people even their
Social Security benefits. He is on public record, stating
that sodomy laws should be actively enforced, to put us all in
jail.
Belief in non-violent change implies a certain degree of moral
conscience on the part of the larger society. There has not
been a single mainstream paper to take the blatant
hate-mongering of Helms seriously enough to make editorial
calls for his resignation. At most, they pretend that this
merely the "intolerance" of a grumpy old man, often acting as
if it is an almost endearing quality.
The word "intolerance" is far too weak for this situation.
The word that rightfully applies is "hate-mongering." It is
not merely a "difference of opinion." It is a deep cancer.
It is the rough equivalent of a Senator who says that Jews are
the Seed of Satan. It cannot be tolerated, period.
If this were still the Middle Ages, or if this were still
Colonial America, perhaps it would be more credible to advise
the gay community that we are not patient enough.
It is ironic that such people as Newt Gingrich, Robert Bork,
and Clarence Thomas are calling for "civility." Clarence
Thomas is a friend to Rush Limbaugh, who riles his audience
with ridiculous stories about gays having sex with gerbils.
He says that "lesbians are mating with pigs to perpetuate the
species."
These comments are made in a context where gay people and
lesbians are getting murdered with regularity. More than 100
gay people were murdered in Brazil alone, last year, not that
this was a new item to the mainstream press.
It is not true "civility" that the complacent of our society
really want. It is the comfort of a secure status quo, no
matter how corrupt and unjust the status quo. It is the
superficial appearance of civility- a reassuring facade where
no one calls names, no one raises their voice, no one
frightens with images of a society about to come unravelled.
Politics, in this view, is a mere abstraction, a mere matter
of "disagreements". As long as you are polite in your
phrasing, it matters little what positions are held. If you
shout "Kill the Fags", then you are "uncivil." If you talk in
high-sounding, lofty rhetoric, spouting phrases like "millenia
of moral wisdom", while you refer to ancient Roman death
penalties for gays, then this is "civil', just like former
Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Warren Burger. Newspapers
will praise your record, showing pictures of you surrounded by
multiracial groups of children. The President of the United
States will lavish the highest of praise on you, when you die.
I beg your pardon, Miss Manners. Civility cannot be divorced
from social justice. A civilized society cannot treat gay
people as sex criminals, any more than it can deny women the
right to vote, or make blacks drink from separate water
fountains. It matters little whether the tone of voice is
calm or barking, the language vulgar or high-flown. Something
basic must change, or something basic must expect to fall
apart, most rudely, in due time.
Gay people keep assuming that if were are merely "nice"
enough, and our opponents are nasty enough, that surely the
tide will swing in our favor. Ever more, this idealistic
assumption shows itself to be a delusion. Right-wing figures
such as Randall Terry of "Operation Rescue" and R.J.
Rushdoony openly advocate death penalty for gays. Yet,
newspapers continue to quote Terry as if he were a legitimate
figure. Pat Robertson of the Christian Coalition offered
words of admiration and praise for Rushdoony, and Bob Dole was
willing to wave the hand of Pat Robertson in the air, for all
America to see.
Many gays are pathetically ignorant of such facts, due to the
apathy and/or censorship of the press. Nearly one of every 5
gay people was foolish enough to turn around and vote for
Dole, so duped were they by the avalanche of propaganda. The
first battle for gay activists is to educate our own.
These conditions do not approximate a level of moral
conscience sufficient to justify peaceful appeal as a means of
change. In the 1960's, it was a time for peaceful protest.
In the 1860's it was a time for a Civil War that was a
necessary chapter to our history, because it was a situation
too deeply sick to resolve itself in any other way.
For gay people, the times bear far more similarity to the
1860's. This is true because it carries no political stigma,
to portray gays in such dehumanizing terms, that we are viewed
superstitiously as enemies of God, destroyers of civilization,
and as mere sex criminals. This is a very poor starting
point to sit down and reason together, particularly when your
adversaries will often proclaim quite proudly their contempt
for reason itself, preferring to confuse their faith in their
own superiority with a faith in God above..
This is not a situation calling for impotent expressions of
verbal protest. We must toughen ourselves both
psychologically and physically, and prepare ourselves for the
grim sacrifices that we will need to make in revolting
outright against these conditions.
I make a suggestion to all members of the gay community who
may be at wits end in their lives, who maybe have lost a
lover to violence, who are slowly dying of HIV, or who may
have wanted to serve their country, only to have their careers
ruined by a military witch-hunt. If you feel that life offers
too little to you, do not waste your exit from this world. The
word "revolution" should not be the property of smug and
powerful politicians.
There are far more uplifting ways that hatemongers like
Senator Helms could have been retired. He could have been
voted out. The media could have worked more diligently to
expose his excesses and unsavory ties. The Republican
leadership could have muzzled and marginalized him. All
parties concerned were far too accustomed to his kind of
hatred, to pay it much notice. So accustomed have they
become, that we must shake them out of their sleep, by
generating some unaccustomed reaction of our own.
Helms will neither be forced out by child-game antics like
putting a condom on his roof. There is nothing cute about
this situation.
It would have been nice if we could put faith in long-term
educational efforts, but even these avenues are being cut off.
Gay students are allowed not even to meet. The very mention
of the word in school newspapers is censored. Any attempt to
portray gay people in a positive light, no matter how timid or
innocuous, causes conservatives to scream as if their children
were being raped. You cannot educate when you cannot speak.
Like facing up to the Third Reich, it is time to wake up to
the fact that there is no room left for trust, or for
education. The only manner in which a situation that this
far-gone can be changed is by force. However much the odds
may be against us, that is nonetheless what we are called upon
to do. This is not the first-resort reaction of the immature.
It is a heavily contemplated and sad conclusion.
Take a good listen to the sounds of the packs of jackasses and
hyenas on this newsgroup. Does it sound like there is room
for reconciliation, or does it sound like the verge of
apocalypse? It must be wisdom, not to burn down God's
mansion, but this isn't a mansion- it's an insane asylum.
Perhaps it is the worst madman to light the match, or perhaps
the most sane of the lot.
How sad to become just one more battling group, like the Hutu
and the Tutsi, caught up in the same mindless stupidity of
violence, but how much sadder still to put up helplessly with
this degradation for century after century, waiting for sanity
that never comes.
Your marching orders should come from the ghost of every gay
teenager who ever jumped off a bridge, crashed a car, put a
gun to their head, hung themselves, drank paint thinner,
stepped in front of a train. The cold-blooded politicians who
create this climate should themselves experience no more
gentle of a fate.
Tom Keske
Boston, Massachusetts
---end essay 2 of 2-----
kin...@abacom.com
In article <34c6f74b...@nntp.sj.bigger.net>,
ezek...@mailcity.com_Z wrote:
>
> On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:51:54 -0600, kin...@abacom.com said:
>
> >On january 13,1998,Magenta wrote:
> >
> >>That feeling of yours that there is such a "hetro regime"
> >
> >There is no doubt in my mind about the nature of a regime
> >which resorts to a hetro mean (het breeding pattern) to
> >reach a mainly hetro goal (het majority and supremacy),and
> >which is entirely dependent upon heterosexuality for its
> >continuation and existence.Such a regime is an hetro one.
>
> A perfect example of heterocentrism being an abusive system against
> children, is today's news article from NewsPlanet. This idea that the
> hetero family (nuclear or otherwise) is the best environment to raise
> children, is not only false, but blown to pieces by the following news
> item below. It speaks for itself...
> ---begin news article
> Forced Youth Treatment Legal
> NewsPlanet Staff
> Wednesday, January 21, 1998 / 02:12 PM
> SUMMARY: If one of your parents has you kidnapped, it's a
> felony, but if both of them consent -- if they're sending you
> off for anti-lesbigay brainwashing, for example, or other
> b-mod -- it's legally for your own good.
The opponents we are facing in these newsgroups will never
ever adress that issue and name the problem by its name,
which is PROPERTY over human beings and COPYRIGHT over
reproductive and upbringing methods.
If humans are property,then our situation is the one of
an utterly dispossessed people.We do not even own
individuals of our own kind,who remain hetro property.
And this is that property,not moral principles,that our
opponents are defending and nothing else.
The only place we will have full property rights on our
own human ressources will be in a gay independent state.We
will get those ressources first through immigration,thus
expropriating what righfully belongs to us.Individuals
will be instrumental in this design in their quality of
immigrants seeking collective freedom and fleeing hetro
tyranny and terror.
In an independent state of our own,we will administer our
human ressources as we see fit,welding newcommers
originating from different lands and organising them into
a nation,bearing in mind that organisation prevails over
the lack of it.
We will eventually set up reproduction centers,which will
be state corporations and public property of the gay
nation.
It goes without saying that as a sovereign nation,we will
determine the setting and the pattern of education,and
through education the sexual orientation of all individuals
born on our soil,remembering that under hetro rule most
individuals became hetro because they were shown,asked,
and ordered to be heterosexual (and for no other cause,
metaphysical,natural or genetic).
Flocks of children shall each belong to a clan of adults.
Family names shall be dropped,and probably only the notion
of uncles/nephrews and aunts/nieces retained out of the
former system of hetro parental structure.
Young gays,either born and raised on our soil,or coming in
through immigration,will be reunited in clans of peers,
eventually consolidated by official state sanctionned
homosexual polygamy (and live happily ever after).
JTEM
Ezekiel Krahlin (ezek...@mailcity.com) wrote:
: Just scroll down to section KINGSIX: ON GAY SECESSION. There, you will
: find most of Kingsix's articles from that soc.motss thread. Or, you
: can access (from that same section), virtually the *entire thread,
: called "Seceding from the het empire"...and read all other
: participants' opinions, as well.
So, Zeke, you got mine in there too? Huh? Do ya? Huh? Well? Do ya? Huh?
John
JTnTPA
In article <34d1dcd4...@bromage.demon.co.uk>, mb.j...@bromage.demon.co.uk
(Mitch) writes:
>Larry, there is a saying in my country.
>When in a hole, stop digging.
amazing how some simple concepts can be transmitted across different cultures.
that sounds downright tao-like...and i do believe i am going to print it out
and put it in my "favorite homilies" file.
jace <----- now just needs to discern the difference between a hole and a
tunnel
__________________________________________________________
"Far more crucial than what we know or do not know
is what we do not want to know." (E. Hoffer, 1954)
The above address accepts no email. Try JTin...@aol.com instead.
ezek...@hotmail.com
In article <6a97ro$f...@news-central.tiac.net>,
jt...@tiac.net (JTEM) wrote:
>
> Ezekiel Krahlin (ezek...@mailcity.com) wrote:
>
> : Just scroll down to section KINGSIX: ON GAY SECESSION. There, you will
> : find most of Kingsix's articles from that soc.motss thread. Or, you
> : can access (from that same section), virtually the *entire thread,
> : called "Seceding from the het empire"...and read all other
> : participants' opinions, as well.
>
>
> John
>
> --
> JT...@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET
Do not judge me by the values shared among your own "friends". I live by a
higher standard.
George M. Carter
kin...@abacom.com wrote:
>Gayness would be decided solely on the basis of
>cultural factors.
What?
George M. Carter
George M. Carter
kin...@abacom.com wrote:
>> Forced Youth Treatment Legal
>> NewsPlanet Staff
>> Wednesday, January 21, 1998 / 02:12 PM
>> SUMMARY: If one of your parents has you kidnapped, it's a
>> felony, but if both of them consent -- if they're sending you
>> off for anti-lesbigay brainwashing, for example, or other
>> b-mod -- it's legally for your own good.
>The opponents we are facing in these newsgroups will never
>ever adress that issue and name the problem by its name,
>which is PROPERTY over human beings and COPYRIGHT over
>reproductive and upbringing methods.
Well, by your secessionist approach, there is absolutely no need to
address this issue. One may simply walk away from it. (Where is that
darn country again?)
But clearly, if this story is true, it is beyond deplorable. Those
that can and are able will undoubtedly take up the cudgel.
What are you doing about it? Organizing vigils? Letter writing
campaigns? Other types of efforts?
What are you doing to create this country you want? Besides just
gassing about it? Lining up funding? Finding real estate? Drawing up a
strategic plan?
George M. Carter
ezek...@hotmail.com
In article <6acmrk$5...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
gm...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> kin...@abacom.com wrote:
>
> >> Forced Youth Treatment Legal
> >> NewsPlanet Staff
> >> Wednesday, January 21, 1998 / 02:12 PM
>
> >> SUMMARY: If one of your parents has you kidnapped, it's a
> >> felony, but if both of them consent -- if they're sending you
> >> off for anti-lesbigay brainwashing, for example, or other
> >> b-mod -- it's legally for your own good.
>
> >ever adress that issue and name the problem by its name,
> >which is PROPERTY over human beings and COPYRIGHT over
> >reproductive and upbringing methods.
>
> Well, by your secessionist approach, there is absolutely no need to
> address this issue. One may simply walk away from it. (Where is that
> darn country again?)
The desire to secede--or at least form one's own separate identity--comes
of centuries of abuse, with no sign of letting up. If this weren't the
case, there would be no "gay" identity in this world. As far as no need
to address the issue of homophobia...well, you are talking out of the
wrong hole, my friend.
Until we have some place of sanctity and refuge--such as our own nation,
or at least designated zone of protection--the best (parentally and
socially) abused gay youth can do, is run from home, to an urban
ghetto...where there is still pathetic assistance provided. A few gays
with the money and connections, do seek asylum in more liberal countries
like Holland...but they are the fortunate few.
> But clearly, if this story is true, it is beyond deplorable. Those
> that can and are able will undoubtedly take up the cudgel.
And who might they be? The pope? Heterocentric societies literally get
away with murder every day, when it comes to their third-class-citizen
queerfolk. Murder just being the worst, and only one, example among many.
Gays live in terror every moment, here in AmeriKKKa...even in S.F. ("gay
mecca"), we are being bashed and killed on a regular and increasing
basis...with the encouragement of our own transit system. Why you have so
much confidence in the status quo, to right every gay wrong, is beyond
me...other than that you are a right-wing, mama's boy homo.
What needs to be done, but is not being done, is swift and forceful
punishment of any homophobic violence or threat...ZERO tolerance, like
the anti-homophobia laws already passed in numerous other Western
Democracies. But our homophobic society looks the other way...and what
"cudgel" you proprose be taken up, no doubt will be one made of foam,
than of solid wood...a "nerf cudgel" if you will.
Perhaps we need to present a list of grievances to the U.S. Government,
in much the same way our early colonialists present their own list to
King George. Perhaps we need to be more responsible than our country is,
that has betrayed us and form our own gay militia groups...akin to street
patrols, but with more bite and solidarity. Pres. Clinton's singing DOMA
(Defense Of Marriage Act) is essentially a nod in approval of continued
fag bashing...and puts our gov't right in the heart of enemy territory.
Secession may not be your cup of tea, but certainly much more aggressive
actions need be taken by gays, if they hope for any chance of liberation.
The discussion of secession may nevertheless awaken gays to how terrible
our situation is, and how important it is to fight back in whatever ways
we can...with more forceful and strident steps, and a united front.
> What are you doing about it? Organizing vigils? Letter writing
> campaigns? Other types of efforts?
Kingsix is contributing numerous excellent treatises in the public
venue...mostly Internet newsgroups. This comes from years of observation,
study, and compassionate feelings...none of which were easily earned. He
should be commended for taking the time to share his cultivated
philosophies in gay newsgroups...in that his words may be of benefit to
many. I'd say he's done far more than your average queer, regarding the
gay rights movement. Way, way more, in fact.
> What are you doing to create this country you want? Besides just
> gassing about it?
You would imply that when *you say something here, it's relevant, but
when Kingsix--or anyone else left of center that does not kiss ass to the
status quo--it is merely "gassing". You present a weak case on your
behalf, oh Harvey Milquetoast! Besides, Kingsix has previously stated
that his concern for gay rights goes beyond sending original articles to
newsgroups...but is not necessarily the business of queer turncoats like
yourself, to know what this is.
>Lining up funding? Finding real estate? Drawing up a strategic plan?
You can only think in terms of money and property...so much for your
heart being with "the people". As far as drawing up a strategic
plan...well, that's easy to figure out, if you bother to read a
collection of Kingsix's artcles in his secession threads.
But it's obvious, he is not writing for the benefit of your sort of
audience...and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even give you the
time of day.
---
Let's secede from those who breed,
Make it sin to *not waste seed!
GodHates...@HetBeGone.com
---
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