Bernie Ward v. Bill O'Reilly Debate Scorecard
Robin Goodfellow
By Keith Woodard
The O'Reilly Factor is a daily Fox News Channel show that's either
Talk or News Analysis, depending on who's telling the story.
Republican Bill O'Reilly is its confrontational host. Last Thursday,
he invited San Francisco's equally pugnacious KGO radio talk show host
Bernie Ward, the "Lion of the Left" to debate the media's coverage of
Congressman Condit. Enough heat was generated to make it doubtful
Bernie will receive another invitation.
The two are political counterparts. O'Reilly denies being a
conservative, and Bernie denies being a liberal.
I've summarized here the eight points of contention, together with my
evaluations.
1. Bernie: There is no connection whatsoever between the affairs and
the disappearance. O'Reilly: How do you know? I'm not saying there
is a connection, you flat out said there wasn't, so we'll let the
audience decide who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't.
Bernie's position was so unreasonable that he later tacitly backed
away from it. He did get in a good lick by firing O'Reilly a question
he couldn't quickly answer. But O'Reilly hammered him several times,
and when he brought the issue into focus near the end, framing it to
highlight Bernie's unreasonableness, Bernie had no rebuttal.
Who was right: O'Reilly
Who performed better: O'Reilly
2. Bernie: Speculation is not allowed in journalism.
Speculation can be part of legitimate journalism. When columnists and
editorial writers conjecture about whether Politician X will throw his
hat into the ring, or what campaign strategy he might employ, or about
the possible consequences of abrogating the ABM treaty, that is
speculation, and they are practicing journalism.
Who was right: O'Reilly
Who performed better: Draw
3. O'Reilly: When you have a cousin in the family who says 'I was
told by Chandra they had an affair,' you should report it.
O'Reilly's general point was correct. A family member (Mrs. Levy's
sister-in-law, rather than her cousin) is indeed making this claim
(Bernie's apparent doubts notwithstanding), and this certainly should
be reported. O'Reilly nailed his point well with, "I don't think she
[Mrs. Levy] is lying about this, DO YOU?" Bernie didn't directly
answer.
Who was right: O'Reilly
Who performed better: O'Reilly
4. Bernie: She's given you five stories that contradicted themselves.
How come, when you interview her, you don't attack her credibility on
those stories?
Bernie was implying that, in interviewing Mrs. Levy, professionalism
would dictate attacking her credibility because some details were
inaccurate. O'Reilly countered that we'd expect confusion in a
distraught woman, and attacking her under these circumstances would be
simply inappropriate. Bernie wound up looking almost cruelly
insensitive.
Who was right: O'Reilly
Who performed better: O'Reilly
5. O'Reilly: In the beginning, Condit said, "Oh no, I'm not a
womanizer, I don't do this." Now we've got SEVEN women who stepped up
and told the FBI that he had affairs.
Throughout the debate, O'Reilly's voice, facial expression and body
language projected more poise and self-assurance than Bernie's. When
he came to this point, it was clear he knew he was nailing Bernie to
the wall. The implications were obvious. Womanizers are more likely
than otherwise faithful husbands to have affairs with interns. And
men are more likely to harm women with whom they've had illicit
affairs than they are platonic friends. So, whether there was a
causal connection or not, the affairs are highly relevant to the
disappearance. Bernie had no counter.
Who was right: O'Reilly
Who performed better: O'Reilly
6. Bernie: Condit is on the record as saying he broke the
relationship off with her, and she was trying to call him afterward.
Ironically, O'Reilly's own Fox Network reported the gist of Bernie's
claim. However, Condit probably did not make this statement, and he
was certainly not "on the record" with it.
O'Reilly seemed unaware of the Fox report, just as Bernie seemed
unaware of the contrary report in a July 4 article in the respected
newspaper _The Hill_: "Fox News also reported last week that Condit
told police that he had ended his relationship with Levy two days
before her disappearance. But according to Mike Dayton, an aide in
Condit's Washington office, D.C.'s Executive Asst. Police Chief
Terrance Gainer phoned CNN's Bob Franken at home and told him the
information Fox was reporting was untrue." Bernie was inaccurate, but
he knew more and it showed.
Who was right: Draw
Who performed better: Bernie
7. O'Reilly: Condit never acknowledged he had anything with her other
than a friendship.
O'Reilly was absolutely correct, even though he seemed unaware of the
story Bernie was referencing. Fox reported: "Condit refused to go
beyond calling his relationship with Chandra a close friendship."
Who was right: O'Reilly
Who performed better: Draw
8. Bernie: You're not doing journalism on this show, Bill!
There might not be a consensus as to whether The Factor is journalism,
but a reasonable case can be made that it is. The program is largely
interview and debate. Nothing about interview per se is incompatible
with television journalism. And debate is essentially an exchange of
opinions, not qualitatively different from point-counterpoint opinion
columns. On his own show, Bernie implied that The Factor is largely
rumor and innuendo, but I've watched several dozen and I haven't seen
it.
O'Reilly did little to defend his journalism, but his dismissive
attitude conveyed the impression that he shouldn't have to. Rarely
have I seen a guest treat his broadcast host as discourteously as
Bernie did here, nor have I seen O'Reilly treat any guests in such a
manner. Bernie's sense of civility has probably atrophied because he
and some other talk KGO hosts do treat callers this way. O'Reilly is
aggressive within the bounds of civility, but such distinctions tend
to be invisible to adversaries. I was left thinking Bernie was
hurling insults out of frustration for his lack of headway on the
issues, but I have no way of knowing whether this was his actual
motive.
It wasn't so much that O'Reilly performed well on this point, but
Bernie's performance was reprehensible.
Who was right: Draw
Who performed better: O'Reilly
Totals
Who was right most: O'Reilly 6-0
Who performed better overall: O'Reilly 5-1
Even on paper, Bernie lost badly. Radio would have been worse. Both
voices are authoritative and compelling, but Bernie's unrelenting
quasi-shout seems shrill compared to O'Reilly's nuances.
Television only adds to O'Reilly's advantage. Bernie's face is
immobile except when his eyes are furtively shifting, and we never see
his arms. O'Reilly's facial expressions and hand motions are as
natural and spontaneous as those of anyone on television.
Keith Woodard
Prager Fan
Keith Woodard <qwoo...@worldnut.att.nut> wrote in message
news:3b4bb614...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> Bernie Ward v. Bill O'Reilly Debate Scorecard
>
>
>
> Who performed better overall: O'Reilly 5-1
>
> Even on paper, Bernie lost badly. Radio would have been worse. Both
> voices are authoritative and compelling, but Bernie's unrelenting
> quasi-shout seems shrill compared to O'Reilly's nuances.
>
> Television only adds to O'Reilly's advantage. Bernie's face is
> immobile except when his eyes are furtively shifting, and we never see
> his arms. O'Reilly's facial expressions and hand motions are as
> natural and spontaneous as those of anyone on television.
Bernie Ward is a fat, lard ass, piece of shit who deserves to have the crap
beaten out of him in some dark alley.
I guess when he doesn't have control of the microphone, like he does on KGO,
we see the shaking coward for what he is.
Not impressed
crap
beaten out of him in some dark alley.
I guess when he doesn't have control of the microphone, like he does on
KSHIT,
we see the shaking coward for what he is.
"Prager Fan" <KillAll...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:yrV27.417$xW3....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Paul Wesley Sunn
<KillAll...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>I guess when he doesn't have control of the microphone, like he does on KGO,
>we see the shaking coward for what he is.
Wormy Bored is famous in the industry as a coward and a blowhard.
so scared is he of retaliation that he will not attend a NAB
convention.
Keith Woodard
wrote:
I have no way of knowing whether he's ever attended a NAB convention,
or, if not, why not. But I've listened to him for many years. He's
one of the gutsiest and toughest debaters I've ever heard.
Jon Slate
Oh really? I think you left one little thing out. When Bernie
Ward asked Bill O'Reilly to name the cousin, Bill O'Reilly tried to
hide the fact he didn't know the name. O'Reilly said, "The cousin..."
who made the remark and boy did he look caught. Bernie Ward asked Bill
O'Reilly again to name woman who made the accusation of the affair
O'Reilly then had to admit that is was an anonymous sourc and the
family had the right to protect her. Bernie then called O'Reilly on
one of his main themes which is assasination by anonymous sources of
which the cousin is one. O'Reilly then chaged the subjec and conceded
the point.
Who was right? Bernie Ward
Who preformed better? Bernie Ward
Who said assasination by anonymous sources is bad? Bill O'Reilly
Who is using an anonymous source to assasinate Condit? Bill O'Reilly
Who lost the entire debate? Bill O'Reilly
Who is Keith Woodard?
> Who was right: O'Reilly
>
> Who performed better: O'Reilly
>
> 4. Bernie: She's given you five stories that contradicted themselves.
> How come, when you interview her, you don't attack her credibility on
> those stories?
>
> Bernie was implying that, in interviewing Mrs. Levy, professionalism
> would dictate attacking her credibility because some details were
> inaccurate. O'Reilly countered that we'd expect confusion in a
> distraught woman, and attacking her under these circumstances would be
> simply inappropriate. Bernie wound up looking almost cruelly
> insensitive.
>
But the point you missed is Bill O'Reilly reported those
conflicting stories by the mother as thought they were fact. Bill
O'Reilly is constantly makeing statements that say Condit did
something to Levy like "The police are closing in on Condit." But the
fact that Bernie beat O'Reilly up with is crediblity. Bill O'Reilly
reported conflicting stories and gives Levy's mother crediblity when
he knows she is confused and has lied.
Who was right? Bernie Ward
Who performed better? Bill O'Reilly (class a acting job)
Would that include O'Reilly turning red in the face? Look
everyone who saw the debate kows O'Reilly is Biased conservative. It
really makes you wonder why he's going after Condit who is a
conservative just like O'Reilly. Also anyone who watched Bill
O'Reilly's show, knows O'Reilly is a liar. Every show Bill O'Reilly
does what he calls a "No Spin Zone". However it is almost always
conservative spin and it is Bill's opinion.
Jon
Jon Slate
Typical Rethuglican. Wants to hurt someone because they are fat
and more intelligent. Notice that the posts with the most inflamatory
and violent content belong to conservatives/republicans. They are
typicaly angry people and whine about people taking their money all
the time. They should learn to relax and maybe have some sex so they
wouldn't be so backed up and angry. If you watched the debate and came
off with the impression that Ward is a coward then you haven't seen
the show or you're stupid.
Jon
David
Jon Slate <yyrk...@yahoo.com>
> Typical Rethuglican. Wants to hurt someone because they are fat
> and more intelligent.
And no liberal has ever attacked Rush Limbaugh or Dennis Prager for same,
right?
>Notice that the posts with the most inflamatory
> and violent content belong to conservatives/republicans. They are
> typicaly angry people and whine about people taking their money all
> the time.
You've obviously turned a blind eye to all the hate speach that comes from
the left in this group or you're just a liar!
>They should learn to relax and maybe have some sex so they
> wouldn't be so backed up and angry.
God - what a stupid statement that was. You must think you're wise man, but
the fact is you're just an idiot!
>If you watched the debate and came
> off with the impression that Ward is a coward then you haven't seen
> the show or you're stupid.
I hear the guy's arrogance every night on KGO. He is an embarrassment to
talk-radio.
Paul Wesley Sunn
Woodard) wrote:
> He's
>one of the gutsiest and toughest debaters I've ever heard.
Bullshit
Wormy talks over his "guests", Cuts them off in mid thought and has a
penchants for the 7 sec delay,
his debating style is reminiscent of a epileptic having a seizure.
John Slade
"Not impressed" <trw...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:TKZ27.2761$W67.3...@news.pacbell.net...
> Dennis Praageer is a fat, lard ass, piece of shit who deserves to have the
> crap
> beaten out of him in some dark alley.
ROTFLMAO! I thought of the very same thing when I read the name of that
guy. Boy he/she must really have a liking to call themsleves "Prager Fan". I
used to watch Dennis Prager when he had that late night talk show sometimes.
Then it was cancelled because nobody gave a rat's ass about Dennis Prager
and his show. Dennis Prager thinks we should lower the drinking age because
of Jenna Bush.
>
> I guess when he doesn't have control of the microphone, like he does on
> KSHIT,
> we see the shaking coward for what he is.
LOL! These people listen to talk radio with one point of veiw so much
they can't stand a guy like Bernie Ward who will readily debate Republicans
on his show.
John
John Slade
"Paul Wesley Sunn" <wpd...@ipa.net> wrote in message
news:r44pktctv0n6v7d32...@4ax.com...
I beg to differ. While I didn't listen to Bernie Ward when this show
was on but Bernie ward and Lee Rogers used to have debates all the time. Lee
Rogers is a conservative and it was said the fights between he and Ward were
legendary. I listen to KGO's all star debates and Bernie does quite well.
You ever listen to Rush Limbaugh debate?
John
JD
"John Slade" <hitm...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:SWb37.177119$qv3.44...@nnrp5-w.sbc.net...
>
> "Not impressed" <trw...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:TKZ27.2761$W67.3...@news.pacbell.net...
> > Dennis Praageer is a fat, lard ass, piece of shit who deserves to have the
> > crap
> > beaten out of him in some dark alley.
>
> ROTFLMAO!
>
Hint: It is best to criticise someone based upon what is in their
'heart' and soul. In this case, the Dems mostly lose. I guess that
all the dems have to show is superficial advantage, perhaps due
to vanity (almost anyone can be made to look good.)
So, anything that makes Dems look good can be bought. Oh,
in fact the Dems themselves can be bought, even the Pres...
John
Prager Fan
John Slade <hitm...@pacbell.net> wrote >
> I beg to differ. While I didn't listen to Bernie Ward when this show
> was on but Bernie ward and Lee Rogers used to have debates all the time.
Lee
> Rogers is a conservative and it was said the fights between he and Ward
were
> legendary. I listen to KGO's all star debates and Bernie does quite well.
> You ever listen to Rush Limbaugh debate?
I don't remember Lee debating Bernie. But I do remember Bernie debating the
late Duane Garrett. Duane was a good Democrat who used to cringe at some of
Ward's views. That tells you just how far to the left ward is.
Prager Fan
John Slade <hitm...@pacbell.net> wrote >
> ROTFLMAO! I thought of the very same thing when I read the name of that
> guy. Boy he/she must really have a liking to call themsleves "Prager Fan".
I
> used to watch Dennis Prager when he had that late night talk show
sometimes.
> Then it was cancelled because nobody gave a rat's ass about Dennis Prager
> and his show.
Wrong! It was canceled because most Americans are too dumb to understand
Prager. Springer is all that their limited attention span can take!
>Dennis Prager thinks we should lower the drinking age because
> of Jenna Bush.
Prager insisted that his view was not altered by the Bush episode. Her
arrest only provided a good time to discuss the topic.
>
> LOL! These people listen to talk radio with one point of veiw so much
> they can't stand a guy like Bernie Ward who will readily debate
Republicans
> on his show.
Bernie Ward is a poor debater. It's just that gullible people are taken in
by his sophistry and specious arguments.
Prager Fan
David <vb...@NOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:P_a37.41171$J91.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> Jon Slate <yyrk...@yahoo.com>
> > Typical Rethuglican. Wants to hurt someone because they are fat
> > and more intelligent.
>
> And no liberal has ever attacked Rush Limbaugh or Dennis Prager for same,
> right?
I agree. Liberal Mojo has called Dennis Prager a "Fat bastard" many, many
times!!!
Mojo!
Make that a lying, fat, pompous, bloated, overheated, anachronistic, myopic bastard who doesn't do his homework and who
regularly cums all over his toga!
REPUBLICAN MOJO HAS SPOKEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not impressed
criticizing Bernie Ward's looks. Care to wipe some of that Repug egg off
your face?
"JD" <dy...@jdyson.com> wrote in message
news:5%c37.247$uD5.1...@news1.iquest.net...
Not impressed
show. After years of blabbering about "the depravity of television" this
f**king hypocrite has a lingerie show on to try to boost his floundering
ratings. I'm sure this had nothing to do with his obsession with porn.
"John Slade" <hitm...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:SWb37.177119$qv3.44...@nnrp5-w.sbc.net...
>
Paul Wesley Sunn
<hitm...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>I listen to KGO's all star debates and Bernie does quite well.
>You ever listen to Rush Limbaugh debate?
nope, not a limbaugh listener or fan
in a controlled setting Womey gets his ass kicked every time
home turf is another matter.
i cant blame him too much, TV is NOT his medium
So its Applies and Oranges for me.
Paul Wesley Sunn
<KillAll...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>I don't remember Lee debating Bernie. But I do remember Bernie debating the
>late Duane Garrett. Duane was a good Democrat who used to cringe at some of
>Ward's views. That tells you just how far to the left ward is.
I have Reels of some of those shows, Wormy is VERY far left
and sometimes rips into a more sensible Dem
Then again with his marital arrangements, he can afford to be a Limo
Socialist.
JD
"Not impressed" <trw...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:Vvi37.2935$121.3...@news.pacbell.net...
> Hey dope. This part of the thread started because Prager Fan (A Repug) was
> criticizing Bernie Ward's looks. Care to wipe some of that Repug egg off
> your face?
>
don't care if the name calling started with GOPer, Democrat or honest
person.
Two wrongs don't make a 'right.' It does seem that stupidity comes more
from people like you, though.
John
Keith Woodard
They started as friends and allies, but became bitter enemies. After
Duane's jump off the Golden Gate Bridge, Bernie, to his credit,
admitted this was largely due to his jealousy of Duane.
Duane Garrett was an amazing talk show host, as well as an attorney
and political strategist (he was Diane Feinstein's campaign manager).
He was an extremely tough debater, and the depth and breadth of his
knowledge was astounding. Comparable to John Rothmann's.
I heard Duane and Bernie engage three times. Bernie won two and Duane
one. The biggest debate of theirs that I heard was on school
vouchers. Both were superb, but I thought Bernie won.
Keith Woodard
<hitm...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>"Paul Wesley Sunn" <wpd...@ipa.net> wrote in message
>news:r44pktctv0n6v7d32...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:58:54 GMT, "Prager Fan"
>> <KillAll...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >I guess when he doesn't have control of the microphone, like he does on
>KGO,
>> >we see the shaking coward for what he is.
>> Wormy Bored is famous in the industry as a coward and a blowhard.
>> so scared is he of retaliation that he will not attend a NAB
>> convention.
>>
>
> I beg to differ. While I didn't listen to Bernie Ward when this show
>was on but Bernie ward and Lee Rogers used to have debates all the time. Lee
>Rogers is a conservative and it was said the fights between he and Ward were
>legendary.
These "Wednesday night fights" were excellent, but Lee isn't really in
Bernie's class.
It was Lee's show (Bernie didn't have his own at that time). For an
hour and a half, Lee would bring up topics and opine. Bernie would
rebut him. Lee would rerebut and Bernie would rererebut, etc., until
Lee brought up the next topic. Bernie always had an answer, but Lee
could cover his lack of one by simply bringing up the next topic.
That and Lee's ability to handle extreme pressure easily are how he
survived.
Lee can articulate the conservative position well, but Bernie knows
far more (it's an extraordinary host who knows as much as Bernie) and
Bernie is much better at analyzing and constructing arguments on his
feet.
Lee does have one advantage over Bernie: a sure sense of the
reasonable. This is one of Bernie's few weak areas. Bernie often
defends reasonable positions with unreasonable arguments. Lee's
conservative positions are unreasonable as far as I'm concerned (I'm a
liberal), but it's hard to catch him making an argument that sounds
unreasonable.
>I listen to KGO's all star debates and Bernie does quite well.
He's easily the best newstalk debater they have, and they have tough
ones.
Keith Woodard
>c...@net.commie (Robin Goodfellow) wrote:
<snip undisputed material>
>> 3. O'Reilly: When you have a cousin in the family who says 'I was
>> told by Chandra they had an affair,' you should report it.
>>
>> O'Reilly's general point was correct. A family member (Mrs. Levy's
>> sister-in-law, rather than her cousin) is indeed making this claim
>> (Bernie's apparent doubts notwithstanding), and this certainly should
>> be reported. O'Reilly nailed his point well with, "I don't think she
>> [Mrs. Levy] is lying about this, DO YOU?" Bernie didn't directly
>> answer.
>
> Oh really? I think you left one little thing out. When Bernie
>Ward asked Bill O'Reilly to name the cousin, Bill O'Reilly tried to
>hide the fact he didn't know the name.
For the benefit of onlookers, here's the exchange Jon is talking
about:
------ Begin debate excerpt --------
O'Reilly: When you have a cousin in the family who says 'I was told by
Chandra they had an affair' --
Bernie: Name her.
O'Reilly: You report it.
Bernie: Name her.
O'Reilly: The cousin of the Levy family.
Bernie: Yeah. Give me her name.
O'Reilly: The Levy family is protecting the cousin.
------ End debate excerpt --------
Jon is pointing to the fact that, when Bernie asks O'Reilly to name
the relative, O'Reilly replies as if he's been asked only to identify
her. Was this a deliberate attempt to "hide the fact that he didn't
know her name?" I think you'd have to be a mind reader to know.
Folks often respond to what they think the other person means rather
than their exact words.
>O'Reilly said, "The cousin..."
>who made the remark and boy did he look caught.
It's amazing how subjective these things are. O'Reilly didn't look
"caught" to me at all. If anything, he looked surprised that Bernie
would question the existence of the relative. In fact, it was a
tactical error on Bernie's part, which O'Reilly played well, as I
described above.
>Bernie Ward asked Bill
>O'Reilly again to name woman who made the accusation of the affair
>O'Reilly then had to admit that is was an anonymous sourc and the
>family had the right to protect her.
Yes.
>Bernie then called O'Reilly on
>one of his main themes which is assasination by anonymous sources
I'm skeptical that this is one of O'Reilly's "main themes," but I
could certainly be persuaded by evidence.
>of which the cousin is one. O'Reilly then chaged the subjec and conceded
>the point.
He didn't concede "the point." He conceded what had never been a
point at issue between them: the fact that Mrs. Levy had given
conflicting information. In so doing, he suggested that confusion
would be expected of "a distraught woman."
Let's keep in mind that what Bernie had disputed was O'Reilly's remark
that, "When you have a cousin in the family who says 'I was told by
Chandra they had an affair,' you should report it." The only reason I
can think of that Bernie would have demanded to know the relative's
name, or brought up Mrs. Levy's conflicting information, was to
undermine O'Reilly's premise that there actually was a relative making
such a claim. Bernie certainly never took the position that, if there
were credible evidence that a relative were making such a claim, that
fact should go unreported.
In any case, O'Reilly won the point easily by confronting him with a
question that Bernie, wisely, declined to answer: "But I don't think
[Mrs. Levy] is lying about [the relative's claim], DO YOU?"
Bernie was nailed and he knew it. He couldn't answer yes, but he
couldn't answer no. He was stuck. He tried to deflect attention from
his predicament by attempting to maneuver O'Reilly into the position
that he knew for certain a relative was making the claim, and
challenging O'Reilly to prove it, just as O'Reilly had done to him
regarding the connection between the affairs and the disappearance.
Bernie does deserve credit for this, since it was probably the best
debate move available in his untenable position. Unfortunately for
him, O'Reilly knew the correct counter and made Bernie look incredibly
callous:
------ Begin debate excerpt --------
O'Reilly: Yeah, I've got Mrs. Levy saying it.
Bernie: Mrs. Levy, who's told five separate stories about this so far.
O'Reilly: I'll cede that she's a distraught woman, but I don't think
she's lying about this, DO YOU?
Bernie: [Evading the question] How do you know?
O'Reilly: I DON'T know. I said I don't THINK she's lying.
------ Interrupt debate excerpt --------
At that point, Bernie had nothing and had to change the subject to why
O'Reilly hadn't attacked Mrs. Levy's credibility. Bernie's choice of
the word "attack" was a blunder for which O'Reilly was to make him pay
dearly. O'Reilly was actually a bit unfair here, but devastatingly
effective:
------ Resume debate excerpt --------
Bernie: She's given you five stories that contradicted themselves.
How come, when you interview her, you don't attack her credibility on
those stories?
O'Reilly: Because I'm not going to attack somebody who's just lost
their daughter. That's insane.
------ End debate excerpt --------
Returning to the original point, the simple fact is that O'Reilly was
correct that the relative was making the claim (we learned her name
the next day). He also played Bernie like a tuna.
<snip>
>Who said assasination by anonymous sources is bad? Bill O'Reilly
When?
Did you listen to Bernie's show later that evening? Bernie said he
never watches The Factor. I've seen several dozen Factors and I
haven't heard O'Reilly go on about assassination by anonymous sources.
I'm not saying he doesn't. I'm admitting I don't know. Do you have
documentation establishing that he does?
>Who is using an anonymous source to assasinate Condit? Bill O'Reilly
I don't think that's a fair assessment. What O'Reilly said is that,
when you have credible evidence that a relative is saying Condit and
Levy had an affair, it deserves reporting. O'Reilly used his common
sense and put his credibility on the line by saying he didn't think
Mrs. Levy was lying on this point, and he was borne out the next day.
You and I both know Bernie has guts, but he wasn't willing to put his
credibility on the line on this one. So he had no choice but to evade
O'Reilly's question. He knew just as well as O'Reilly that it was
unlikely (though not impossible) that Mrs. Levy would lie at this
point about something this specific, that the police would certainly
check.
>Who lost the entire debate? Bill O'Reilly
You're welcome to your opinion. There's always an element of
subjectivity in evaluating these kinds of debates. We all have
biases. In my case, I agree with Bernie and disagree with O'Reilly on
probably ninety percent of the big issues.
I've explained why I think O'Reilly won, and why I don't think it was
particularly close. It seems to me you'd need to have a pretty strong
bias against O'Reilly to think that Bernie even held his own, much
less that he won.
Did you have strong feelings about O'Reilly going into this, Jon?
>Who is Keith Woodard?
Me. I'm Keith Woodard, a liberal Democrat who can sometimes be as
biased and partisan as most political activists (I'm not myself an
activist). But there are also times I'm somehow able to see beyond my
biases, and notice, for example, that there are as many jerks on my
side as there are across the fence.
For a long time I defended Clinton, although he's really too far
right. (Sometimes its hard to tell him from a Republican.) For the
entire month of October 1998, I went on a futile, one-man Usenet
campaign to try to stop Clinton-bashers from cluttering up the
Internet with "quotations" there's no evidence Clinton ever said. You
can verify this in the archives, and my open letter to Matt Drudge, on
the subject of one of these spurious quotations, is on the Web at:
http://www.gridlockmag.com/fallout/13_07.html
Last October, I gathered the research of a lot of folks into two
heavily-footnoted articles that demolish the myth that Al Gore is any
more of a liar than any other politician. You can see them here:
A Problem with the Truth - Gore's or the Media's?:
http://groups.google.com/groups?ic=1&selm=3a0b82d7.191058837%40netnews.worldnet.att.net
Footnotes:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&ic=1&selm=3a0b8333.191150192%40netnews.worldnet.att.net
Dismantling a Gore Lie List:
http://groups.google.com/groups?&hl=en&ic=1&selm=3a0b8528.191652067%40netnews.worldnet.att.net
Footnotes:
http://groups.google.com/groups?&hl=en&ic=1&selm=3a0b8158.190675893%40netnews.worldnet.att.net
>> Who was right: O'Reilly
>>
>> Who performed better: O'Reilly
>>
>> 4. Bernie: She's given you five stories that contradicted themselves.
>> How come, when you interview her, you don't attack her credibility on
>> those stories?
>>
>> Bernie was implying that, in interviewing Mrs. Levy, professionalism
>> would dictate attacking her credibility because some details were
>> inaccurate. O'Reilly countered that we'd expect confusion in a
>> distraught woman, and attacking her under these circumstances would be
>> simply inappropriate. Bernie wound up looking almost cruelly
>> insensitive.
>>
>
> But the point you missed is Bill O'Reilly reported those
>conflicting stories by the mother as thought they were fact.
If he did, he deserves criticism. Can you post any evidence that he
did?
I notice, too, Jon, that you're not making the mistake Bernie did in
using the word "attack."
>Bill O'Reilly is constantly makeing statements that say Condit did
>something to Levy like "The police are closing in on Condit."
I don't remember him saying that. Do you have any quotes?
>But the
>fact that Bernie beat O'Reilly up with is crediblity. Bill O'Reilly
>reported conflicting stories and gives Levy's mother crediblity when
>he knows she is confused and has lied.
It's possible, but I'd be surprised if O'Reilly actually lent his
credibility to conflicting stories. I'd love to see documentation of
this.
>Who was right? Bernie Ward
If it's true that O'Reilly actually endorsed conflicting stories, I'd
agree with you. But Bernie presented no evidence of this, and so far
you haven't either.
>Who performed better? Bill O'Reilly (class a acting job)
I suspect your bias against O'Reilly would prevent you from admitting
he performed better without adding a disparaging comment.
<snip undisputed material>
>> Even on paper, Bernie lost badly. Radio would have been worse. Both
>> voices are authoritative and compelling, but Bernie's unrelenting
>> quasi-shout seems shrill compared to O'Reilly's nuances.
>>
>> Television only adds to O'Reilly's advantage. Bernie's face is
>> immobile except when his eyes are furtively shifting, and we never see
>> his arms. O'Reilly's facial expressions and hand motions are as
>> natural and spontaneous as those of anyone on television.
>
> Would that include O'Reilly turning red in the face?
I'll look at the tape again when I have a chance, but I don't remember
O'Reilly getting "red in the face."
There was a point where O'Reilly was obviously angrier than Bernie,
but it seemed appropriate because Bernie was insulting O'Reilly, not
the other way around.
Bernie was heaping insults like "You're not a journalist, Bill!" on
O'Reilly in an unmistakably derisive tone. It was beyond the bounds
of the civility that O'Reilly and even his most bitter opponents
normally accord each other. O'Reilly deserves credit, in my opinion,
for defending himself against gratuitous insults while neither
responding in kind nor losing his poise.
>Look, everyone who saw the debate kows O'Reilly is Biased conservative.
I don't think they could. No liberal/conservative issues were raised.
>It really makes you wonder why he's going after Condit who is a
>conservative just like O'Reilly.
That's right. It seems clear to me that he's "going after Condit" for
no other reason than Condit's own behavior.
>Also anyone who watched Bill
>O'Reilly's show, knows O'Reilly is a liar. Every show Bill O'Reilly
>does what he calls a "No Spin Zone". However it is almost always
>conservative spin and it is Bill's opinion.
Oh come on, Jon. First of all, "spin," for all its overuse, isn't a
precisely defined term. Does it encompass only deliberate slanting,
or can it be inadvertent?
O'Reilly is no more or less of a spinner than most. And how much
spinning any us us do depends on how the term is defined. He has a
conservative bias, just as Bernie and I, and probably you, have a
liberal bias. But I don't think any of us feel that we're trying to
mislead others.
Your remark here reinforces my suspicion that you had a strong dislike
for O'Reilly going into the debate. Am I right or wrong?
Question, Jon: Would you say you have a bias against O'Reilly?
Keith
jack
But what makes me laugh every time is when O'Reilly claims a working
class background. "Working class," as O'Reilly well knows, has
traditionally meant manual labor, usually at low wages. It doesn't
just mean "not rich."
O'Reilly's father was an accountant for an oil company in New York
City. Hardly a working class type job.
"Bill O'Reilly and His Invisible Toolbox: Has the Anti-Spinmeister
Been Caught Spinning?"
http://www.therationalradical.com/talk_shows/bill_oreilly.htm
Jack
http://www.therationalradical.com
Radical short takes about politics and culture
On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 02:10:25 GMT, c...@net.commie (Robin Goodfellow)
wrote:
Paul Wesley Dunn
<rationalR...@cyberelectric.com> wrote:
>But what makes me laugh every time is when O'Reilly claims a working
>class background. "Working class," as O'Reilly well knows, has
>traditionally meant manual labor, usually at low wages. It doesn't
>just mean "not rich."
I know what ya mean, its like when Teddy Kennedy mumbles how he is one
of the Little People and the Sheep go wild
John Slade
I never said a thing about Dennis Prager being fat. I was just
laughing at the idiot who called Bernie Ward fat while calling herself
"Prager Fan". You see Prager and Ward are both fat. But notice it's almost
always the conservatives with the foul moths and the first ones to call
people names in this newsgroup.
Speaking of buying politicians. Is George Bush a pimp? George Bush's
party put out a Brochure saying if you give much money you can have
"access"t to cabinet members. Could that be construed as pimping? Remember
when you guys said Clinton was selling nights in the Lincoln Bedroom? Well
what do all those conservatives say about George Bush doing the same thing
and being so bold as to having a Brochure? I haven't heard a peep from these
conservatives who look into the "heart and soul" of a person. Hehehe! Kinda
makes you think these conservatives turn their moral compass on and off
according to party affiliation. Tell me. How many Republicans came out and
called for Henry Hyde to resign because of his affair? I bet you can't think
of one.
John
"We do not negotiate with terrorists." --President Ronald Reagan
"I am not a crook!"---Richard M. Nixon
"Read...my...lips! No...new...taxes!"---George Bush
John Slade
>
> "Not impressed" <trw...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Vvi37.2935$121.3...@news.pacbell.net...
> > Hey dope. This part of the thread started because Prager Fan (A Repug)
was
> > criticizing Bernie Ward's looks. Care to wipe some of that Repug egg off
> > your face?
> >
> Firstly, your name calling only perpetuates the crud. Secondly, I really
> don't care if the name calling started with GOPer, Democrat or honest
> person.
>
Sure you don't. ;) That's why you responded to me as if I was the first
to call a name when there was no name calling in the post. However I notice
you didn't complain to Prager Fan for talking about how Bernie Ward looked.
Yea sure you don't care who starts name calling. You're spreading the
bullshit pretty thick on this one JD.
> Two wrongs don't make a 'right.' It does seem that stupidity comes more
> from people like you, though.
Oh really? Well I suggest you read some of those posts by conservatives
in here. Lots of them lose an argument and start name calling like crazy. I
admit I call names sometimes but only if someone really deserves it. However
you will notice I like to debate issues more than anything else in here. And
hay if you don't like us liberals you don't have to post in
alt.politics.democrats. You tend to find a lot of liberals here. :)
John