eViL Chicken Littles Kill Starving Africans
Winston Smith
<me> The government of Zambia is rejecting genetically modified (GM) food
which could save their citizens because the EVIL Chicken Littles panicked
them from accepting GM food. Even if GM food was radioactive (which it
isn't for you eco-socialist panic mongers) they would escape death by
decades. The propaganda against bioengineered food is unscrupulous. The
Chicken Lichen irrational rejection of salvation through a GM free lunch
is beyond science and logic. There may be problems, but feeding starving
people isn't one of them. How do you cure irrational fear?
These eco-nazis are evil beyond belief.
re: In southern African famine, Zambia alone rejects GM food: WFP
GENEVA, Aug 23 2002(AFP/Clari.net fair use) - The World Food Programme
(WFP) on Friday said that Zambia was now the only famine-hit southern
African country to reject genetically-modified food aide after concerns
raised by Zimbabwe and Mozambique were resolved.
WFP's Executive Director James Morris said he was very worried about the
more than two million people at risk of starvation in Zambia, one of six
badly-affected countries in the region.
"There are no biotech-GM issues in Malawi, Swaziland or Lesotho. We've
essentially resolved the biotech-GM issues in Zimbabwe and in Mozambique,"
Morris told a press conference.
<me> Man, are we giving the commies in Zimbabwe food? IDIOTS!
...
The World Health Organisation earlier Friday announced it had called a
three-day meeting in Harare, Zimbabwe, from Monday to be attended by
health ministers from 10 African countries to discuss the health aspects
of the humanitarian crisis...
MORONS, LEAVE Zimbabwe!
From: C-...@clari.net (AFP / Kate Millar)
Winston Smith
of the humanitarian crisis... -- C-...@clari.net (AFP / Kate Millar)
MORONS, LEAVE Zimbabwe!
re: Mugabe dissolves Zimbabwe cabinet
HARARE, Aug 23 2002 (AFP/Clari.net fair use) - President Robert Mugabe of
Zimbabwe has dissolved his cabinet, his office said in a statement
Friday, in a long-awaited move that comes amid his government's growing
international isolation.
He has staked his political fortunes on a controversial scheme to
resettle white-owned farms with blacks, a program plagued by violence and
one in which his critics claim has mainly benefited Mugabe's inner circle.
The resettlement scheme also threatens to worsen an already devastating
food shortage, which has left at least six million people -- about half
the population -- threatened by famine.
David Lentz
Winston Smith wrote:
>
> eViL Chicken Littles Kill Starving Africans
>
> <me> The government of Zambia is rejecting genetically modified (GM) food
> which could save their citizens because the EVIL Chicken Littles panicked
> them from accepting GM food. Even if GM food was radioactive (which it
> isn't for you eco-socialist panic mongers) they would escape death by
> decades. The propaganda against bioengineered food is unscrupulous. The
> Chicken Lichen irrational rejection of salvation through a GM free lunch
> is beyond science and logic. There may be problems, but feeding starving
> people isn't one of them. How do you cure irrational fear?
>
> These eco-nazis are evil beyond belief.
Humans have been genetically modifying food for hundreds, if not
thousand of years. The tomato is member of the nightshade
family, which is poisonous. We modified the poison out of the
tomato. Our potatoes bear little, if any resemblance to their
wild antecedents in Peru. The coffee bean has come a long way in
fifteen hundred years from Ethiopia.
In the end, no matter what the source of the food, it comes out
the same color.
David
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
The Big Weasel
wrote:
Selective breeding doesn't upset people. I guess you didn't know
that.
Genetic engineering, on the other hand, does, because we still don't
really know what we're doing.
>
>David
"If [congressional] people start treating war plans like they're paper airplanes and they can fly them around this building and throw them to anyone who wants them, I think it's outrageous. It's inexcusable and they ought to be in jail."
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David Lentz
The Big Weasel wrote:
<snip>
> >Humans have been genetically modifying food for hundreds, if not
> >thousand of years. The tomato is member of the nightshade
> >family, which is poisonous. We modified the poison out of the
> >tomato. Our potatoes bear little, if any resemblance to their
> >wild antecedents in Peru. The coffee bean has come a long way in
> >fifteen hundred years from Ethiopia.
> >
> >In the end, no matter what the source of the food, it comes out
> >the same color.
>
> Selective breeding doesn't upset people. I guess you didn't know
> that.
>
> Genetic engineering, on the other hand, does, because we still don't
> really know what we're doing.
> >
> >David
If manipulating genes is bad, then any methods used to manipulate
genes would be bad. The fact is that have been playing with
genes for ages. It that now we have a far better idea what we
are doing.
You are going have a very tough, if not impossible, time trying
to eat nothing but indigenous DNA.
David
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
Ian St. John
> Winston Smith wrote:
> >
> > eViL Chicken Littles Kill Starving Africans
> >
> > <me> The government of Zambia is rejecting genetically modified (GM) food
> > which could save their citizens because the EVIL Chicken Littles panicked
> > them from accepting GM food.
Lies. Zambia had laws protecting their agriculture base long before
the current crisis.
> Even if GM food was radioactive (which it
> > isn't for you eco-socialist panic mongers) they would escape death by
> > decades.
So, what are you saying? They could avoid destruction for a while by
becoming dependent on $U$S seed developers? That the whole thing is a
plot to force GM seed into the country?
> > The propaganda against bioengineered food is unscrupulous. The
> > Chicken Lichen irrational rejection of salvation through a GM free lunch
> > is beyond science and logic.
Two unsupportable propositions.
1: gm is 'salvation'. There was no need for gm seed before and it will
not fix anything now. The problem in Zimbabwe is that the farms are
now being given to people who do not know how to farm. GM seed solves
nothing that needs fixing.
2: that GM is a 'free lunch'. It isn't. The rich western lands may
find gm varieties to be an improvement, given the large level
farmlands, and mechanized cultivation, but they pay in dependency on
the seed manufacturer. Nor is there a guarantee of food production.
The seeds are specifically tested and developed for the N.A. climate
and in most cases do not increase production even there.
> > There may be problems, but feeding starving
> > people isn't one of them.
There is not problem except on how to mill the seed before delivery.
That this is being resisted is one indication that the true agenda is
NOT saving the starving. The poster is trying to shill for the
industry.
> > How do you cure irrational fear?
See your psychiatrist. He may be able to help you with your
irrationality too.
> >
> > These eco-nazis are evil beyond belief.
>
> Humans have been genetically modifying food for hundreds, if not
> thousand of years.
Selecting, not modifying. The tomatoe and potatoe were originally from
south america, where wild ancestors still grow, and were cultivated by
natives long before western society stole them. The natives did not
know anything about genetics.
> The tomato is member of the nightshade family, which is poisonous.
So the 'family' is poisonous? Your lack of education is showing. The
deadly nightshade plant is poisonous all right. The level of toxicity
varies for root, stem, leaves, etc. It does not imply that related
species in the family are poisonous. We eat two members of the
'family'. The fruit of the tomatoe plant and the tubers of the potatoe
plant. Note: Some wild tomato varieties have poisonous fruit. The
particular variety we call the tomatoe today was selected by native
americans in the mexico region.
> We modified the poison out of the tomato.
Bullshit. The fruit of the tomato plant ( red fruiting ) was never
poisonous. The leaves and roots are still poisonous. We have done
nothing to change this.
> Our potatoes bear little, if any resemblance to their
> wild antecedents in Peru.
Again,not true. Modern varieties are very similar to the wild
potatoes. The spanish conquistadors ate, and planted the same native
varieties.
http://www.sunspiced.com/phistory.html
"The Spanish Conquistador Pedro Cieza de Leon in his journal
"Chronicle of Peru" wrote the first recorded information about
potatoes in 1553. The Conquistadors didn't find the gold and silver
they were looking for but quickly cornered the local potato market.
Potatoes were soon a standard supply item on the Spanish ships; they
noticed that the sailors who ate papas (potatoes) did not suffer from
scurvy"
> The coffee bean has come a long way in fifteen hundred
> years from Ethiopia.
Another example of ignorance. We have done essentially zero
modification of the coffee bean. Most variations come from climate,
soil, and cultivation practices, not to mention roasting and blending.
>
> In the end, no matter what the source of the food, it comes out
> the same color.
And with a striking similarity to your posts. No wonder you accept the
GM propaganda. You are the perfect 'fertile soil' for bullshit, having
no clue yourself.
>
> David
The Big Weasel
wrote:
>
>
>The Big Weasel wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> >Humans have been genetically modifying food for hundreds, if not
>> >thousand of years. The tomato is member of the nightshade
>> >family, which is poisonous. We modified the poison out of the
>> >tomato. Our potatoes bear little, if any resemblance to their
>> >wild antecedents in Peru. The coffee bean has come a long way in
>> >fifteen hundred years from Ethiopia.
>> >
>> >In the end, no matter what the source of the food, it comes out
>> >the same color.
>>
>> Selective breeding doesn't upset people. I guess you didn't know
>> that.
>>
>> Genetic engineering, on the other hand, does, because we still don't
>> really know what we're doing.
>> >
>> >David
>
>If manipulating genes is bad, then any methods used to manipulate
>genes would be bad. The fact is that have been playing with
>genes for ages. It that now we have a far better idea what we
>are doing.
Yeah? So how come the pesticide resistant genes that we implated in
corn and wheat are suddenly and shockingly turning up in weeds? You
don't hear about stuff like that from regular selective breeding, do
you?
>
>You are going have a very tough, if not impossible, time trying
>to eat nothing but indigenous DNA.
>
Why not? Up until three years ago, that's all there was. Pretending
that selective breeding is the same thing is both wrong and foolish.
Scott Douglas
> Humans have been genetically modifying food for hundreds, if not
> thousand of years. The tomato is member of the nightshade
> family, which is poisonous. We modified the poison out of the
> tomato. Our potatoes bear little, if any resemblance to their
> wild antecedents in Peru. The coffee bean has come a long way in
> fifteen hundred years from Ethiopia.
There are natural barriers to genetc cross contamination in the natural
world. Plants do not regularly take up genetic material from fish or worms
or dogs, and incrporate that material into their seeds.
Similarly dogs don't incorporate genes from rabbits or rats when they are
eaten.
Nature hasn't created glow in the dark mice.
But science has.
Nature hasn't created Rats with human immune systems.
But science has.
Nature hasn't spliced fish genes into tomatoes.
But science has.
Transgenics and synthagenics provides us with extremely powerful tools to
modify the biosphere. It also requires a proportionately powerful
obligation that genetically engineered organisms be thorougly tested and
proven without doubt to be harmless to the environment.
So far, the track record of transgenic organisms released into real world
has shown that the assumptions made concerning naturally occurring genetic
migration are wrong, and that the controls and procedures used are
inadequate to prevent problems.
Neogenics will proceed, but mechanisms must be developed to provide for the
absolute total eradication of an organism should it's alteration be found
to cause harm. And there is the potential for great harm.
In the hands of the insane we are talking about teh eradication of all
higher order life on the planet kind of harm.
Now no biological weapons scientist would be insane enough to conspire to
release a biological weapon on the general public now would they?
Expert: Anthrax suspect ID'd - 02/19/2002
----------------------------
- JOSEPH DEE Staff Writer -
PRINCETON BOROUGH -- An advocate for the control of
biological weapons who has been gathering information about
last autumn's anthrax attacks said yesterday the Federal
Bureau of Investigation has a strong hunch about who mailed
the deadly letters.
But the FBI might be "dragging its feet" in pressing charges
because the suspect is a former government scientist
familiar with "secret activities that the government would
not like to see disclosed," said Barbara Hatch Rosenberg,
director of the Federation of American Scientists' Chemical
and Biological Weapons Program.
Rosenberg, who spoke to about 65 students, faculty members
and others at the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and
International Affairs at Princeton University, said the FBI
has known of the suspect since October and, according to her
"government insider" sources, has interrogated him more than
once.
The investigation into five anthrax-laced letters and
several other hoax letters -- all mailed last fall,
including several processed by Trenton Main Post Office in
Hamilton -- was the focus of Rosenberg's talk. She also gave
her thoughts about what the government should do to control
biological weapons.
"There are a number of insiders -- government insiders --
who know people in the anthrax field who have a common
suspect," Rosenberg said. "The FBI has questioned that
person more than once, . . . so it looks as though the FBI
is taking that person very seriously."
She said it is quite possible the suspect is a scientist who
formerly worked at the U.S. government's military laboratory
at Fort Detrick, Md.
Rosenberg said she has been gathering information from press
reports, congressional hearings, Bush administration news
conferences and government insiders she would not name.
During a brief question-and-answer session after her talk,
one man wondered whether biological agents truly pose
significant dangers to the public, given the limited number
of deaths and illnesses caused by five anthrax-laced
letters.
Without mentioning other biological agents that are far more
deadly and contagious than anthrax, Rosenberg said the
potential for a biological attack is "catastrophic."
Another man wondered if the FBI and other investigators
might be focusing too narrowly on one scientist, saying,
"New Jersey is the epicenter of the international
pharmaceutical industry," and many people in those labs
presumably have the skills to handle and refine anthrax.
"I think your argument would have been a good one earlier
on, but I think that the results of the analyses (of the
letters and the anthrax in them) show that access to
classified information was essential," Rosenberg said. "And
that rules out most of the people in the pharmaceutical
industry. . . . It's possible, but they would have had to
have access to the information," Rosenberg said.
Picking up the conversational thread, another man said,
"People know a lot, and it's a question of what they choose
to focus their knowledge on. Things are invented in
parallel," he said.
-- -- --
She said the evidence points to a person who has experience
handling anthrax; who has been vaccinated and has received
annual booster shots; and who had access to classified
government information about how to chemically treat the
bacterial spores to keep them from clumping together, which
allows them to remain airborne.
"We can draw a likely portrait of the perpetrator as a
former Fort Detrick scientist who is now working for a
contractor in the Washington, D.C., area," Rosenberg said.
"He had reason for travel to Florida, New Jersey and the
United Kingdom. . . . There is also the likelihood the
perpetrator made the anthrax himself. He grew it, probably
on a solid medium and weaponized it at a private location
where he had accumulated the equipment and the material.
"We know that the FBI is looking at this person, and it's
likely that he participated in the past in secret activities
that the government would not like to see disclosed,"
Rosenberg said. "And this raises the question of whether the
FBI may be dragging its feet somewhat and may not be so
anxious to bring to public light the person who did this.
"I know that there are insiders, working for the government,
who know this person and who are worried that it could
happen that some kind of quiet deal is made that he just
disappears from view," Rosenberg said.
"This, I think, would be a really serious outcome that would
send a message to other potential terrorists, that (they)
would think they could get away with it.
"So I hope that doesn't happen, and that is my motivation to
continue to follow this and to try to encourage press
coverage and pressure on the FBI to follow up and publicly
prosecute the perpetrator."
-- -- --
She expressed disappointment that the U.S. government last
July decided against signing an international biological
weapons treaty that would ban nations from developing such
weapons.
"It became clear from congressional testimony that the
reason for this rejection was the need to protect our secret
projects," Rosenberg said.
During the question-and-answer period, one woman said, "I'm
not sure that I understood you completely, but it seems to
me that the United States government has a double-standard,"
of wanting other nations to comply with a weapons ban but
wanting freedom to pursue its own program.
"I'm totally shocked by this information," she said, sending
a wave of laughter through the lecture hall.
"They make no bones about it," Rosenberg replied. "On many
occasions they've argued that rules should be for the bad
guys, not the good guys."
Rosenberg said she worries about an "enormous increase" in
money in the Bush budget for research into bioterrorism
agents. "There is already a rush for this funding," she
said.
The number of researchers and labs ought to be tightly
controlled, she said. Under the current budget proposal,
however, she says the government will be spreading money
around to "a lot more people and a lot more laboratories
around the country from which bioterrorists can emerge, as
one just did.
"By spreading around this access and this knowledge, we're
asking for trouble.'
Scott Douglas
> genes would be bad.
Childishly simplistic nonlogic.
David Lentz wrote
> The fact is that have been playing with genes for ages. It that now we
> have a far better idea what we are doing.
There is an analogy to computer use. We have been playing with genetics
by using the toold provided to us by nature - tools that are limited by the
constraints of speciation and constrained by the general stability of any
organism's genome.
This is analogous to being contrained to altering the procedures running
in a computer by operating the computer's user interface.
Genetic engineering on the other hand allows us to mix and match pieces
of genetic code from one organism to another.
This is analogous to removing or adding functions in the underlying
machine code that a computer runs.
Any programmer will tell you that doing so is frought with problems and
prone to failure, for it can virtually never be known if a function is
added, it will not break some application somewhere that does not expect
the new behaviour.
Even with tens of millions of pages of documentation disribing how the
various interfaces work, replacing a DLL in an OS as complex as Windows for
example, can make the system unstable and inoperatble.
The Genome of an organism is equally as complex, and the interaction of
an organism with the biosphere even more complex.
Field testing will help, but does not prove the changes are harmless,
just as testing a program helps improve reliability but can not uncover all
possible behaviours.
We can tollerate a crash of a PC. We can not tollerate a crash of the
Biosphere.
Scott Douglas
> corn and wheat are suddenly and shockingly turning up in weeds? You
> don't hear about stuff like that from regular selective breeding, do
> you?
And that's one of the problems. We have no adequate controls to prevent
this kind of spread, nor any mechanism for stopping the spread of these
characteristics once we have initiated them.
Cheerleaders for neogenic organisms, are blissfull in their ignorance.
Scott Douglas
> LOL The PC folks are condemning McDonalds for coming out with a
> McAfrikan meal because so many Africans are starving. The PC folks
> don't seem to have enough to do.
It would appear that by his own reasoning, James has too much time on his
hands as well..
But James has a point. Political correctness is another name for
politeness.
Even a cock sucking moron like James appreciates that.
Winston Smith
<s_do...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The Big Weasel wrote in
> > Yeah? So how come the pesticide resistant genes that we implated in
> > corn and wheat are suddenly and shockingly turning up in weeds? You
> > don't hear about stuff like that from regular selective breeding, do
> > you?
>
> And that's one of the problems. We have no adequate controls to prevent
> this kind of spread, nor any mechanism for stopping the spread of these
> characteristics once we have initiated them.
>
I'm not sure this is even possible. I'm calling you on this weasel, I'd
like a cite. The GM corn can screw with organic farmers corn next field
over because the pollen is carried over. But plant gene transmigration? Ba
humbug.
John Musieewicz
(Winston Smith) wrote:
>eViL Chicken Littles Kill Starving Africans
>
>
><me> The government of Zambia is rejecting genetically modified (GM) food
>which could save their citizens because the EVIL Chicken Littles panicked
>them from accepting GM food. Even if GM food was radioactive (which it
>isn't for you eco-socialist panic mongers) they would escape death by
>decades. The propaganda against bioengineered food is unscrupulous. The
>Chicken Lichen irrational rejection of salvation through a GM free lunch
>is beyond science and logic. There may be problems, but feeding starving
>people isn't one of them. How do you cure irrational fear?
>
>These eco-nazis are evil beyond belief.
>
There is nothing GM modified food does that nonGM food doesn't do and
better. You are simply blowing in the wind, Winnie-the-poo.
John Musieewicz
wrote:
>
>
>Winston Smith wrote:
>>
>> eViL Chicken Littles Kill Starving Africans
>>
>> <me> The government of Zambia is rejecting genetically modified (GM) food
>> which could save their citizens because the EVIL Chicken Littles panicked
>> them from accepting GM food. Even if GM food was radioactive (which it
>> isn't for you eco-socialist panic mongers) they would escape death by
>> decades. The propaganda against bioengineered food is unscrupulous. The
>> Chicken Lichen irrational rejection of salvation through a GM free lunch
>> is beyond science and logic. There may be problems, but feeding starving
>> people isn't one of them. How do you cure irrational fear?
>>
>> These eco-nazis are evil beyond belief.
>
>Humans have been genetically modifying food for hundreds, if not
>thousand of years. The tomato is member of the nightshade
>family, which is poisonous. We modified the poison out of the
>tomato.
False
>Our potatoes bear little, if any resemblance to their
>wild antecedents in Peru. The coffee bean has come a long way in
Wrong
>fifteen hundred years from Ethiopia.
Not true.
>
>In the end, no matter what the source of the food, it comes out
>the same color.
Bulloney
>
>David
The Big Weasel
Not problem. I posted the story not two weeks ago:
Scientists shocked at GM gene transfer
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gmdebate/Story/0,2763,774794,00.html
>
>
>> Cheerleaders for neogenic organisms, are blissfull in their ignorance.
"If [congressional] people start treating war plans like they're paper airplanes and they can fly them around this building and throw them to anyone who wants them, I think it's outrageous. It's inexcusable and they ought to be in jail."
Winston Smith
<jmusie...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:17:09 -0600, wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov
> (Winston Smith) wrote:
>
> >eViL Chicken Littles Kill Starving Africans
> >
> >
> ><me> The government of Zambia is rejecting genetically modified (GM) food
> >which could save their citizens because the EVIL Chicken Littles panicked
> >them from accepting GM food. Even if GM food was radioactive (which it
> >isn't for you eco-socialist panic mongers) they would escape death by
> >decades. The propaganda against bioengineered food is unscrupulous. The
> >Chicken Lichen irrational rejection of salvation through a GM free lunch
> >is beyond science and logic. There may be problems, but feeding starving
> >people isn't one of them. How do you cure irrational fear?
> >
> >These eco-nazis are evil beyond belief.
> >
>
> There is nothing GM modified food does that nonGM food doesn't do and
> better. You are simply blowing in the wind, Winnie-the-poo.
John, the people need the food now and the food we have to give them is
GM... is it better to starve or eat the food? This is an irrational fear!
Ian St. John
> > There is nothing GM modified food does that nonGM food doesn't do and
> > better. You are simply blowing in the wind, Winnie-the-poo.
>
> John, the people need the food now and the food we have to give them is
> GM... is it better to starve or eat the food? This is an irrational fear!
It is not better to mill the grain and distribute it *as food*.
Is this so hard to do?
Of course, if the agenda is to force GM seed technology on a country
that doesn't want it, and does not benefit from it, the logic becomes
clear.
The old 'ipso facto' 'fait acommpli' contamination wedge.
Winston Smith
You may be interested to know I do not support GM or SEED companies
patenting God's handiwork. OTOH, I think the human body will be nourished
by the food even if it upsets the esthetics in the farmers organic fields
next door.
Starving people who wont eat it to save their lives deserve to be
naturally de-selected, and leaders who reject their food are murderers.
Frank Altschuler
"John Musieewicz" <jmusie...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:76khmuolfdgr9jt76...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:17:09 -0600, wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov
> (Winston Smith) wrote:
>
> >eViL Chicken Littles Kill Starving Africans
> >
> >
> ><me> The government of Zambia is rejecting genetically modified (GM) food
> >which could save their citizens because the EVIL Chicken Littles panicked
> >them from accepting GM food. Even if GM food was radioactive (which it
> >isn't for you eco-socialist panic mongers) they would escape death by
> >decades. The propaganda against bioengineered food is unscrupulous. The
> >Chicken Lichen irrational rejection of salvation through a GM free lunch
> >is beyond science and logic. There may be problems, but feeding starving
> >people isn't one of them. How do you cure irrational fear?
> >
> >These eco-nazis are evil beyond belief.
> >
>
> There is nothing GM modified food does that nonGM food doesn't do and
> better. You are simply blowing in the wind, Winnie-the-poo.
In this case the GM food seems far superior to the nonGM in that it exists
and is available.
If the recipients of aid wish to specify the nature and form of that aid,
more power to them. No one says that they have to take it. I'll bet the
leadership in that country is eating just fine which makes such decision
making just that much easier.
Meanwhile time's a wasting for a lot of folks who would probably be in favor
of eating now rather than having their leadership continue to posture and
pose for the European eco-weenies.
Ian St. John
"Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
news:081D28F85C02539B.1FFE65D2...@lp.airnews.net...
> In article <211be79f.0208...@posting.google.com>,
> ist...@spamcop.net (Ian St. John) wrote:
>
> > wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov (Winston Smith) wrote in message
>
news:<B49999175B4BAD32.3E7468DD...@lp.airnews.net>...
> > > In article <76khmuolfdgr9jt76...@4ax.com>, John
Musieewicz
> > > <jmusie...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > <Snip>
> > > > There is nothing GM modified food does that nonGM food doesn't do
and
> > > > better. You are simply blowing in the wind, Winnie-the-poo.
> > >
> > > John, the people need the food now and the food we have to give them
is
> > > GM... is it better to starve or eat the food? This is an irrational
fear!
> >
> > It is not better to mill the grain and distribute it *as food*.
> >
> > Is this so hard to do?
> >
> > Of course, if the agenda is to force GM seed technology on a country
> > that doesn't want it, and does not benefit from it, the logic becomes
> > clear.
> >
> > The old 'ipso facto' 'fait acommpli' contamination wedge.
>
> You may be interested to know I do not support GM or SEED companies
> patenting God's handiwork.
Then you have no objection to milling the grain and distributing it. Good.
Problem solved.
> OTOH, I think the human body will be nourished by the food
> even if it upsets the esthetics in the farmers organic fields
> next door.
Maintaining a *suitable* seed for a particular climate, pest species, and
farming practices is important to maintaining good agricultural output. In a
marginal economy, it is critical and there must be some effort made not to
contaminate the seed genepool. It has been shown to be a problem even in the
West, where GM varieties of Canola are infesting wheat fields, and where
weeds are picking up the GM traits from the seed and becoming 'superweeds'
that cannot be killed by the normal herbicides.
Zimbabwe cannot afford the levels of fertilizer and pesicide use that the GM
seeds are designed for. They do NOTHING useful for them, and could be an
economic disaster if introduced through carelessness. Mill the seed and
distribute the food. Problem solved.
>
>
> Starving people who wont eat it to save their lives deserve to be
> naturally de-selected, and leaders who reject their food are murderers.
So you blame the Ag-Business that is pressuring government to prevent
milling of the seeds, while holding the starving peasants at ransom?
It is good to know who is at FAULT in this situation. Mobutu seems quite
willing to distribute milled grain. The peasants are quite willing to accept
the resulting meal. Ergo, where is the problem and who is the actual
criminal? Too bad these arrogant pigs won't pay the price.
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
I just realized that you are not talking about the subject I posed - i.e.
feeding the starving Africans with GM food. Perhaps YOU should clarify the
fact that the food we are sending them is a conspiracy to get them hooked
on GM seeds, I guess after they plant the seed. This is the first I've
heard of this devious plot.
> >
> >
> > Starving people who wont eat it to save their lives deserve to be
> > naturally de-selected, and leaders who reject their food are murderers.
>
> So you blame the Ag-Business that is pressuring government to prevent
> milling of the seeds, while holding the starving peasants at ransom?
>
Prove your thesis first.
Ian St. John
<snip>
> I just realized that you are not talking about the subject I posed - i.e.
> feeding the starving Africans with GM food. Perhaps YOU should clarify the
> fact that the food we are sending them is a conspiracy to get them hooked
> on GM seeds, I guess after they plant the seed. This is the first I've
> heard of this devious plot.
Then you haven't been paying attention. The reason the seed is being blocked
is because it is seed and Zimbabwe does not allow import of GM seed. It's
the LAW.
They have expressed no reservations of accepting the FOOD.
The reason for the LAW is as stated.
Subsistence farming is based on 'seed saving' which normally propagates
suitable local varieties. However, GM seed doesn't LOOK any different, so
the subsistence farmer is likely to plant some of it, if given our as seed.
This is not only logical, it has happened over and over. Look at GM
contamination of Mexican corn varieties.
And the GM companies know it, and use political pressure to try to get the
seed into the countreis by any excuse, knowing that it will inevitably
result in genetic contamination of local crops. Once the corn is
contaminated, that will open up the legal challenges for Monsanto, for
example, to gain an stranglehold on the cotton crop, since blocking GM
varieties will be a 'spent effort'. They really don't care about the local
corn farmers or famine. They want the big markets.
Mill the seed. Feed the famine victims. Problem solved.
> > > Starving people who wont eat it to save their lives deserve to be
> > > naturally de-selected, and leaders who reject their food are
murderers.
> >
> > So you blame the Ag-Business that is pressuring government to prevent
> > milling of the seeds, while holding the starving peasants at ransom?
> >
> Prove your thesis first.
Your ignorance is not my problem. Do your own research.
David Lentz
"Ian St. John" wrote:
>
> "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> news:7B0FD44B1F0DAF7C.D9406C60...@lp.airnews.net...
> > In article <3d6b...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> > <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > I just realized that you are not talking about the subject I posed - i.e.
> > feeding the starving Africans with GM food. Perhaps YOU should clarify the
> > fact that the food we are sending them is a conspiracy to get them hooked
> > on GM seeds, I guess after they plant the seed. This is the first I've
> > heard of this devious plot.
>
> Then you haven't been paying attention. The reason the seed is being blocked
> is because it is seed and Zimbabwe does not allow import of GM seed. It's
> the LAW.
Unless you plant only native wild species, all food stuff has
been genetically modified at some point.
David
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
The Big Weasel
wrote:
>
>
Selective breeding, or geneticially modified in the lab? If yu think
there is no difference, consider the: you can't copyright a plant that
is selectively bred.
>
>David
"If [congressional] people start treating war plans like they're paper airplanes and they can fly them around this building and throw them to anyone who wants them, I think it's outrageous. It's inexcusable and they ought to be in jail."
-- Donald Rumsfeld, fuming over the notion that Congress can decide whether we go to war with Iraq or not
**************************************
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Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> kangassized:
> "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> news:7B0FD44B1F0DAF7C.D9406C60...@lp.airnews.net...
> > In article <3d6b...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> > <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > I just realized that you are not talking about the subject I posed - i.e.
> > feeding the starving Africans with GM food. Perhaps YOU should clarify the
> > fact that the food we are sending them is a conspiracy to get them hooked
> > on GM seeds, I guess after they plant the seed. This is the first I've
> > heard of this devious plot.
>
> Then you haven't been paying attention. The reason the seed is being blocked
> is because it is seed and Zimbabwe does not allow import of GM seed. It's
> the LAW.
>
Zambia is the country who will not accept the food. Zimbabwe are your
communists buddies who take whatever the can steal.
> They have expressed no reservations of accepting the FOOD.
>
> The reason for the LAW is as stated.
>
> Subsistence farming is based on 'seed saving' which normally propagates
> suitable local varieties. However, GM seed doesn't LOOK any different, so
> the subsistence farmer is likely to plant some of it, if given our as seed.
> This is not only logical, it has happened over and over. Look at GM
> contamination of Mexican corn varieties.
And the Mexicans are running out of tortillas because of this? NOT!
>
> And the GM companies know it, and use political pressure to try to get the
> seed into the countreis by any excuse, knowing that it will inevitably
> result in genetic contamination of local crops. Once the corn is
> contaminated, that will open up the legal challenges for Monsanto, for
> example, to gain an stranglehold on the cotton crop, since blocking GM
> varieties will be a 'spent effort'. They really don't care about the local
> corn farmers or famine. They want the big markets.
>
> Mill the seed. Feed the famine victims. Problem solved.
Ian, the MEDIA is reporting that Zambia will not accept our food aid. If
someone else in the Ministry of Truth (MINITRU) has written a
doubleplusungood account of the African Aid, I'll have them sent to Rm.
101 in the Ministry of Love. (MINILUV)
>
> > > > Starving people who wont eat it to save their lives deserve to be
> > > > naturally de-selected, and leaders who reject their food are
> murderers.
> > >
> > > So you blame the Ag-Business that is pressuring government to prevent
> > > milling of the seeds, while holding the starving peasants at ransom?
> > >
> > Prove your thesis first.
>
> Your ignorance is not my problem. Do your own research.
>
> > > It is good to know who is at FAULT in this situation. Mobutu seems quite
> > > willing to distribute milled grain. The peasants are quite willing to
> accept
> > > the resulting meal. Ergo, where is the problem and who is the actual
> > > criminal? Too bad these arrogant pigs won't pay the price.
You act like the beggars don't know how to mill grain. Is that our job? If
they don't have spoons, should the US spoon feed them?
If the Zambian government decides that GM grain is a worse threat that
starvation, then the bureaucrats are to blame and the people should burn
their houses down (with them inside.) The tragedy is that the poor cannot
read this else they wouldn't actually be starving.
This isn't hate speech, its freedomspeak.
--
"Self-defense is justly called the primary law of nature, so it is not,
neither can it be in fact, taken away by laws of society."
-- Sir William Blackstone
Ian St. John
"David Lentz" <Ro...@signfile.net> wrote in message
news:3D6C21FA...@signfile.net...
Not true.
http://glossary.eea.eu.int/EEAGlossary/G/genetically_modified_organism
genetically modified organism:
"The modification of the genetic characteristics of a micro-organism, plant
or animal by inserting a modified gene or a gene from another variety or
species. Genetically modified organisms (GMOs) may be micro-organisms
designed for use as biopesticides or seeds that have been altered
genetically to give a plant better disease resistance or growth. "
No amount of selective breeding will create a 'generically modified'
organism. GMO implies modified or foreign genes, not present in the original
gene pool.
Ian St. John
> In article <3d6bb664$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, comrade "Ian St. John"
> <ist...@spamcop.net> kangassized:
>
> > "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> >
news:7B0FD44B1F0DAF7C.D9406C60...@lp.airnews.net...
> > > In article <3d6b...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> > > <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > > I just realized that you are not talking about the subject I posed -
i.e.
> > > feeding the starving Africans with GM food. Perhaps YOU should clarify
the
> > > fact that the food we are sending them is a conspiracy to get them
hooked
> > > on GM seeds, I guess after they plant the seed. This is the first I've
> > > heard of this devious plot.
> >
> > Then you haven't been paying attention. The reason the seed is being
blocked
> > is because it is seed and Zimbabwe does not allow import of GM seed.
It's
> > the LAW.
> >
>
> Zambia is the country who will not accept the food.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/famine/story/0,12128,737470,00.html
Gripped by severe food shortages, with a potentially vast famine looming,
the Zimbabwean authorities have rejected a US government donation of 10,000
tonnes of maize, worth $6m, because it has not been certified as free from
genetic modification.
http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/reliefresources/482233?version=1
Zambia initially refused U.S. corn, but then accepted it.
Any chance of you actually getting *one* fact right???
> Zimbabwe are your communists buddies who take
> whatever the can steal.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2027079.stm
Southern Africa's famine: Country by country mostly caused by drought or
flood..
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
Angola: nominally a multiparty democracy
Zambia: Republic;president elected by popular vote for a
five-year term
Zimbabwe: parliamentary democracy
Mozambique: republic;president elected by popular vote for a five-year
term
Malawi: multiparty democracy
Lesotho: parliamentary constitutional monarchy
Swaziland: monarchy; independent member of Commonwealth
Funny... Not a socialist in the bunch. Primarily market economies, based
on democracy or republics with popular elections.
>
>
> > They have expressed no reservations of accepting the FOOD.
> >
> > The reason for the LAW is as stated.
> >
> > Subsistence farming is based on 'seed saving' which normally propagates
> > suitable local varieties. However, GM seed doesn't LOOK any different,
so
> > the subsistence farmer is likely to plant some of it, if given our as
seed.
> > This is not only logical, it has happened over and over. Look at GM
> > contamination of Mexican corn varieties.
>
> And the Mexicans are running out of tortillas because of this? NOT!
Playing stupid is so passe...
You are playing...right?
> > And the GM companies know it, and use political pressure to try to get
the
> > seed into the countreis by any excuse, knowing that it will inevitably
> > result in genetic contamination of local crops. Once the corn is
> > contaminated, that will open up the legal challenges for Monsanto, for
> > example, to gain an stranglehold on the cotton crop, since blocking GM
> > varieties will be a 'spent effort'. They really don't care about the
local
> > corn farmers or famine. They want the big markets.
> >
> > Mill the seed. Feed the famine victims. Problem solved.
>
>
> Ian, the MEDIA is reporting that Zambia will not accept our food aid.
Witless.. The MEDIA is reporting that the food went to Zambia and Malawi
after some initial reluctance.
> If someone else in the Ministry of Truth (MINITRU) has written a
> doubleplusungood account of the African Aid, I'll have them sent to Rm.
> 101 in the Ministry of Love. (MINILUV)
Oh?
Try google with "Zimbabwe seed GM refused" and be prepared for a few hundred
newpapers that need 'correcting' in your 'ministry of truth'.
> >
> > > > > Starving people who wont eat it to save their lives deserve to be
> > > > > naturally de-selected, and leaders who reject their food are
> > > > > murderers.
> > > >
> > > > So you blame the Ag-Business that is pressuring government to
prevent
> > > > milling of the seeds, while holding the starving peasants at ransom?
> > > >
> > > Prove your thesis first.
> >
> > Your ignorance is not my problem. Do your own research.
> >
> > > > It is good to know who is at FAULT in this situation. Mobutu seems
quite
> > > > willing to distribute milled grain. The peasants are quite willing
to
> > > > accept the resulting meal. Ergo, where is the problem and who is the
actual
> > > > criminal? Too bad these arrogant pigs won't pay the price.
>
>
> You act like the beggars don't know how to mill grain. Is that our job? If
> they don't have spoons, should the US spoon feed them?
Nope. I agree that the solution is to mill the grain and this can be done in
Zimbabwe easily. Why hasn't it? You have the Zimbabwe governmetn which has
agreed that the solution is to mill the grain, and you have the American
negotiators.
Who is bogging things down?
And why?
>
> If the Zambian government decides that GM grain is a worse threat that
> starvation, then the bureaucrats are to blame and the people should burn
> their houses down (with them inside.) The tragedy is that the poor cannot
> read this else they wouldn't actually be starving.
>
> This isn't hate speech, its freedomspeak.
No. It is stupidspeak mixed with ignorantspeak. You have both your facts
wrong and your basis for objection is lacking in substance. Mill the seed.
End of problem. What is so hard for you to understand??
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
The fact that Zambia changed their mind is a good thing. If this is true,
I was in error that it was Zimbabwe who continues to bite the hand that
feeds them. In their case, they are going to punish their enemies like all
communist states. Please post the DATE of your article.
This is the article from 17 Aug, 11 days ago:
Saturday, 17 August, 2002, 09:00 GMT 10:00 UK
Zambia has refused emergency food aid from the United States despite being
one of the countries worst affected by famine in Africa.
Zambian officials say the supplies of maize from the US come from
genetically modified crops and that they are concerned the food could
contaminate local agriculture.
The fact that the people are starving doesn't mean that we should allow
them to eat what they don't know...
But -Zimbabwe- and Mozambique said they will only accept the grain if it
is milled...
David Lentz
"Ian St. John" wrote:
<snip>
> > Unless you plant only native wild species, all food stuff has
> > been genetically modified at some point.
>
> Not true.
>
> http://glossary.eea.eu.int/EEAGlossary/G/genetically_modified_organism
> genetically modified organism:
> "The modification of the genetic characteristics of a micro-organism, plant
> or animal by inserting a modified gene or a gene from another variety or
> species. Genetically modified organisms (GMOs) may be micro-organisms
> designed for use as biopesticides or seeds that have been altered
> genetically to give a plant better disease resistance or growth. "
>
> No amount of selective breeding will create a 'generically modified'
> organism. GMO implies modified or foreign genes, not present in the original
> gene pool.
If you alter the genes sequences found in nature, you have
modified a species' DNA. No matter the method used, selective
breeding, induced random mutation, or genetic manipulation,
natural DNA has been destroyed and the genetics of the species
has been modified. Why some people go off the deep end with
regards to some but not all methods of genetic modification
eludes me.
David
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
Ian St. John
Here. I'll print it again. Now try to understand it.
No amount of selective breeding will create a 'generically modified'
organism. GMO implies modified or foreign genes, not present in the original
gene pool.
The 'gene pool' consists of all of the possible genes in that species and
while they can be combined in many ways to make unique individuals, and the
relative probability of a specific gene can be changed, this does not make a
'modified' or 'foreign' gene. The result may be a new breed, but it is not
genetically modified. Hell, I gave you the definition. What part of it do
you not understand?
Ian St. John
>
> The fact that Zambia changed their mind is a good thing. If this is true,
> I was in error that it was Zimbabwe who continues to bite the hand that
> feeds them.
Zambia changed their mind and refused the corn later, deciding
to buy it elsewhere but this apparently happened later than your article.
> In their case, they are going to punish their enemies
like all
> communist states. Please post the DATE of your article.
Hell, I posted the link to the article. A click is too hard for you?
Oh, well . The article is dated 19 Jul 2002
>
>
> This is the article from 17 Aug, 11 days ago:
>
>
>
> Saturday, 17 August, 2002, 09:00 GMT 10:00 UK
>
> Zambia has refused emergency food aid from the United States despite being
> one of the countries worst affected by famine in Africa.
Actually, they decided to buy grain elsewhere that was not GM.
http://www.oneworld.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi?root=129&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emg
%2Eco%2Eza%2FContent%2Fl3%2Ejsp%3Fa%3D12%26o%3D7726 (21 August 2002 14:16)
"Zambia will buy maize from Kenya and Tanzania to help feed millions of
people after rejecting offers of genetically modified (GM) maize aid,
Zambian Finance Minister Emmanuel Kasonde said on Wednesday."
>
> Zambian officials say the supplies of maize from the US come from
> genetically modified crops and that they are concerned the food could
> contaminate local agriculture.
Gee. Wonder about that, eh? I guess you can't sneak into Africa by the 'back
door' either..
>
> The fact that the people are starving doesn't mean that we should allow
> them to eat what they don't know...
>
> But -Zimbabwe- and Mozambique said they will only accept the grain if it
> is milled...
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2199189.stm
And exactly what is the problem with milling the grain... ONE MORE TIME!
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> news:B3B84FFA6AAAE6F5.F445BF4A...@lp.airnews.net...
> > In article <3d6c5dbd$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> > <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > The fact that Zambia changed their mind is a good thing. If this is true,
> > I was in error that it was Zimbabwe who continues to bite the hand that
> > feeds them.
>
> Zambia changed their mind and refused the corn later, deciding
> to buy it elsewhere but this apparently happened later than your article.
>
> > In their case, they are going to punish their enemies
> like all
> > communist states. Please post the DATE of your article.
>
> Hell, I posted the link to the article. A click is too hard for you?
I was not wrong, Zambia has refused GM food aid and your arrogant ass is
wrong. I posted an article from 10, days ago and now this one from today:
Zambia rejects gene-altered U.S. corn [Wed Aug 28,11:11 AM ET]
After waiting seven hours under the sizzling African sun, John Shikuboni
hoped to fill his empty sack with free corn stored in a warehouse here.
But an aid official told Shikuboni and about 200 other hungry men, women
and children that he could no longer distribute the corn because the
Zambian government had ruled that the genetically modified grain was not
safe for them.
"Please give us the food," pleaded an elderly blind man wearing a
threadbare shirt. "We don't care if it is poisonous because we are dying
anyway."
Many Zambians in rural areas have resorted to eating leaves, twigs and
even poisonous berries and nuts to cope with the worst food crisis in a
decade hitting southern Africa. Still, their government is refusing to
accept donations of genetically modified corn that the United Nations (
news - web sites) and aid agencies say could help ease the starvation and
suffering of about 2.5 million Zambians.
...
"We would rather starve than get something toxic," said Zambian President
Levy Mwanawasa, who declared a food emergency in the nation three months
ago.
Privately, aid officials say the Zambian government is looking a gift
horse in the mouth...
Community - Black Voices Aug 28, 2002
By Davan Maharaj And Anthony Mukwita
Admit your error.
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> Funny... Not a socialist in the bunch....
More leftist lies.
Funny you left out the Marxist Congo (1), The "Democratic Republic of the
Congo" who are in the middle of a revolution. (They are starving too.)
Angola was a socialist puppet state of the Soviet Union with 50,000 Cuban
troops fighting the South Africans, and against the CIA backed UNITA. The
same people are in charge to this day.
Zambia (which was N. Rhodesia) was said to have sold state businesses in
the 90s but Mugabe's Zimbabwe (*Rhodesia) is currently using Marxist land
reform to oust white farmers for his comrades in arms. Maoist Mozambique
is also said to have abandoned Marxist Lennism in 1992, but are they still
socialists? Even South Africa has ties to communists, after the apartheid
revolution, half the ANC, the armed wing, was in the Communist Party of
South Africa. I think the ANC still "links" to the CPSA.
Sweden, called a socialist state by socialists, is only listed as a
"Constitutional Monarchy." Apparently the CIA and the World Almanac don't
label ANYONE socialists. Why is that? BTW even Communist China MFN/WTO is
alleged to have a "market" economy.
(1) KINSHASA, Congo - Uganda and Zimbabwe have begun their pledged troop
withdrawals from Congo, the United Nations ( news - web sites) confirmed
Wednesday ‹ a rare concrete step toward ending central Africa's four-year,
six-nation war.
In government-allied west Congo, meanwhile, Zimbabwe likewise has brought
home hundreds of its troops, Toure said. Zimbabwe was believed to have
12,000 troops in Congo. U.N. authorities will try to determine the
precise numbers of troops being withdrawn, the U.N. spokesman said.
...
Congo's war has split the country into government-held and rebel-and
foreign-occupied zones. What some call Africa's first world war has killed
2.5 million people by aid groups' estimate. Most victims succumbed to
disease or famine brought on or worsened by the conflict.
The war erupted out in August 1998 when Uganda and Rwanda backed Congo
rebels in a bid to overthrow then-President Laurent Kabila. Rwanda and
Uganda accused Kabila of harboring rebels who threatened their own
security.
The foreign-backed rebels seized much of the north and east of Congo.
Kabila's government held onto the rest only with the help of armies from
Angola, Zimbabwe and Namibia.
Peace efforts have moved forward under new Congo leader Joseph Kabila,
who came to power after his father's own bodyguards assassinated him.
AP World Politics Fair Use
UN: Uganda, Zimbabwe start withdrawing troops from Congo's 4-year-old Wed
Aug 28,12:42 PM ET
--By EDDY ISANGO, Associated Press Writer
Ian St. John
> In article <3d6d2f3a$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> > "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> >
news:B3B84FFA6AAAE6F5.F445BF4A...@lp.airnews.net...
> > > In article <3d6c5dbd$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> > > <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> > <snip>
> > >
> > > The fact that Zambia changed their mind is a good thing. If this is
true,
> > > I was in error that it was Zimbabwe who continues to bite the hand
that
> > > feeds them.
> >
> > Zambia changed their mind and refused the corn later, deciding
> > to buy it elsewhere but this apparently happened later than your
article.
> >
> > > In their case, they are going to punish their
enemies
> > like all
> > > communist states. Please post the DATE of your article.
> >
> > Hell, I posted the link to the article. A click is too hard for you?
>
> I was not wrong, Zambia has refused GM food aid and your arrogant ass is
> wrong. I posted an article from 10, days ago and now this one from today:
As I said, there was an initial denial and then acceptance of GM corn. The
latest change was reported on the 21'st and this is only seven days
ago,while your article is ten days ago. I note that you did not provide a
supporting reference to your claim and it is hard to know if the article
referred to the original refusal or the later decision to buy GM free corn
from local sources. The likelihood of it referencing the original refusal
is fairly high, and you gave no details that make a distinction. Reference
to the later change would likely have mentioned the purchase of grain from
local sources, which was not seen.
Nor was this your major claim. Your major claim was that Zimbabwe was not
refusing the grain ( also wrong ).
Your other claim that the states involved in the famine are communist has
been shown repeatedly to be wrong.
And that government actions are involved in the famine has been shown to be
wrong, except in some cases where they have exacerbated the problems of
damage due to flood and drought. Lack of local govenment funds due to
support for war and in the case of Zimbabwe, expropriation of trained
farmers by untrained replacements. Note: Land reform is not based on command
economies or socialism. It is based on redressing past inequities.
Your score is pretty pathetic. I will admit that the change in Zambia to
again refuse GM corn by buying local supplies did come out in time that I
should have been aware of it. Give yourself a big round of applause...
Note that the famine in Zambia is to be relieved by *local supplies* of
food. As I have pointed out before, famine in market economies such as those
involved here is generally a problem of local food being beyond the means of
those starving, not lack of sufficient food.
Lloyd Parker
<22A2FED678C2ACF3.E496294D...@lp.airnews.net>,
wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov (Winston Smith) wrote:
>In article <3d6c5dbd$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
><ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>> "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
>>
news:B81B8807EB8C439D.96980F2A...@lp.airnews.net
..
John"
>> > <ist...@spamcop.net> kangassized:
>> >
>> > > "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
>> > >
>>
news:7B0FD44B1F0DAF7C.D9406C60...@lp.airnews.net
..
The CIA is socialist?
>
>Funny you left out the Marxist Congo (1), The "Democratic Republic of
the
>Congo" who are in the middle of a revolution. (They are starving
too.)
>Angola was a socialist puppet state of the Soviet Union with 50,000
Cuban
>troops fighting the South Africans, and against the CIA backed UNITA.
The
>same people are in charge to this day.
Gee, sometimes when you let people vote, you get results right-wingers
in other countries don't like! I guess you'd prefer that they don't
get to vote?
>
>Zambia (which was N. Rhodesia) was said to have sold state businesses
in
>the 90s but Mugabe's Zimbabwe (*Rhodesia) is currently using Marxist
land
>reform to oust white farmers for his comrades in arms.
So what does Zambia have to do with Zimbabwe? Do all those African
countries just look alike to you?
>Maoist Mozambique
>is also said to have abandoned Marxist Lennism in 1992, but are they
still
>socialists? Even South Africa has ties to communists, after the
apartheid
>revolution, half the ANC, the armed wing, was in the Communist Party
of
>South Africa. I think the ANC still "links" to the CPSA.
I'll take what the CIA says over you.
>
>Sweden, called a socialist state by socialists, is only listed as a
>"Constitutional Monarchy."
Socialism is an economic system, not a political one. You really
shouldn't be debating unarmed.
>Apparently the CIA and the World Almanac don't
>label ANYONE socialists. Why is that? BTW even Communist China
MFN/WTO is
>alleged to have a "market" economy.
>
>
>
>(1) KINSHASA, Congo - Uganda and Zimbabwe have begun their pledged
troop
>withdrawals from Congo, the United Nations ( news - web sites)
confirmed
>Wednesday ‹ a rare concrete step toward ending central Africa's
four-year,
>six-nation war.
>
> In government-allied west Congo, meanwhile, Zimbabwe likewise has
brought
>home hundreds of its troops, Toure said. Zimbabwe was believed to
have
>12,000 troops in Congo. U.N. authorities will try to determine the
>precise numbers of troops being withdrawn, the U.N. spokesman said.
>....
Ian St. John
> >
> > > Zimbabwe are your communists buddies who take
> > > whatever the can steal.
> >
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2027079.stm
> > Southern Africa's famine: Country by country mostly caused by drought or
> > flood..
> >
> > http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
> > Angola: nominally a multiparty democracy
> > Zambia: Republic;president elected by popular vote for a
> > five-year term
> > Zimbabwe: parliamentary democracy
> > Mozambique: republic;president elected by popular vote for a five-year
> > term
> > Malawi: multiparty democracy
> > Lesotho: parliamentary constitutional monarchy
> > Swaziland: monarchy; independent member of Commonwealth
> >
> > Funny... Not a socialist in the bunch....
>
> More leftist lies.
Please feel free to correct those 'leftists' producing the CIA world
factbook.
> Funny you left out the Marxist Congo (1), The "Democratic Republic of the
> Congo" who are in the middle of a revolution. (They are starving too.)
Hmm. Congo: Government type: dictatorship; presumably undergoing a
transition to
representative government
Seems the 'leftists' in the CIA disagree with your characterization of the
country as 'marxist'.
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=29340&SelectRegion=Great_Lakes&S
electCountry=CONGO
The dictator has managed to get himself elected so technically it is a
republic now...
And there was a peace deal last month. Perhaps you missed that..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2160522.stm
> Angola was a socialist puppet state of the Soviet Union with 50,000 Cuban
> troops fighting the South Africans, and against the CIA backed UNITA. The
> same people are in charge to this day.
The cold war is over. Get over it.. God, some people are just so hung up
about USSR involvement in other countries. Nobody mentions the similar US
puppet states....
>
> Zambia (which was N. Rhodesia) was said to have sold state businesses in
> the 90s but Mugabe's Zimbabwe (*Rhodesia) is currently using Marxist land
> reform to oust white farmers for his comrades in arms.
Actually that would be 'capitalist' land reform. There is nothing marxist
about the concentration of land and power in the hands of the white minority
during the previous decades and there is nothing marxist about addressing
this inequity now. Marxism actually gives all land to the state, and the
farmers work it in 'collectives'. ergo Land reform is not 'marxist'.
>
Maoist Mozambique
> is also said to have abandoned Marxist Lennism in 1992, but are they still
> socialists? Even South Africa has ties to communists, after the apartheid
> revolution, half the ANC, the armed wing, was in the Communist Party of
> South Africa. I think the ANC still "links" to the CPSA.
These pathetic attempts to deny present day reality by harking back to cold
war politics show that you have nothing to show but a mentality mired in
yesterdays propaganda.
>
> Sweden, called a socialist state by socialists, is only listed as a
> "Constitutional Monarchy." Apparently the CIA and the World Almanac don't
> label ANYONE socialists. Why is that? BTW even Communist China MFN/WTO is
> alleged to have a "market" economy.
Gee... You'll just have to correct the CIA, won't you...
Note: China *does* have a market economy, with a limited capitalism, in a
primariliy command economy. The state has a lot of power, but leaves the
details to the individual. You tend to be a bit 'rigid' with your
definitions and this blinds you to the facts.
> (1) KINSHASA, Congo - Uganda and Zimbabwe have begun their pledged troop
> withdrawals from Congo, the United Nations ( news - web sites) confirmed
> Wednesday < a rare concrete step toward ending central Africa's four-year,
> six-nation war.
<snip>
Starvation in a war torn country is not evidence of the strength or weakness
of the government system. One has to note also that even the U.S. converts
to a command economy in the event of war. Apparently it has something to do
with ensuring efficient use of resources, and to prevent hoarding and
profiteering...
Winston Smith
(Lloyd Parker) wrote:
CIA is WRONG. When reading the news about the DR Congo you can't tell who
are the Communists because of the PC media.
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
You lying sack of shit. Here is my first post. You will notice a date and
a reference. Note that Zimbabwe wasan asside at the end. You are the one
who changed my subject, now lie about it.
eViL Chicken Littles Kill Starving Africans
<me> The government of Zambia is rejecting genetically modified (GM) food
which could save their citizens because the EVIL Chicken Littles panicked
them from accepting GM food. Even if GM food was radioactive (which it
isn't for you eco-socialist panic mongers) they would escape death by
decades. The propaganda against bioengineered food is unscrupulous. The
Chicken Lichen irrational rejection of salvation through a GM free lunch
is beyond science and logic. There may be problems, but feeding starving
people isn't one of them. How do you cure irrational fear?
These eco-nazis are evil beyond belief.
re: In southern African famine, Zambia alone rejects GM food: WFP
GENEVA, Aug 23 2002(AFP/Clari.net fair use) - The World Food Programme
(WFP) on Friday said that Zambia was now the only famine-hit southern
African country to reject genetically-modified food aide after concerns
raised by Zimbabwe and Mozambique were resolved.
WFP's Executive Director James Morris said he was very worried about the
more than two million people at risk of starvation in Zambia, one of six
badly-affected countries in the region.
"There are no biotech-GM issues in Malawi, Swaziland or Lesotho. We've
essentially resolved the biotech-GM issues in Zimbabwe and in Mozambique,"
Morris told a press conference.
<me> Man, are we giving the commies in Zimbabwe food? IDIOTS!
...
The World Health Organisation earlier Friday announced it had called a
three-day meeting in Harare, Zimbabwe, from Monday to be attended by
health ministers from 10 African countries to discuss the health aspects
of the humanitarian crisis...
MORONS, LEAVE Zimbabwe!
From: C-...@clari.net (AFP / Kate Millar)
> Your other claim that the states involved in the famine are communist has
> been shown repeatedly to be wrong.
>
Clip Lies: Land Reform in Zimbabwe is right out of the Communist Manifesto.
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> lies:
Depends who wins, right comrade? Note the comrades who are helping the
Congo are from commie Angola, Zimbabwe, and Namibia.
[ The war erupted out in August 1998 when Uganda and Rwanda backed Congo
rebels in a bid to overthrow then-President Laurent Kabila. Rwanda and
Uganda accused Kabila of harboring rebels who threatened their own
security.
The foreign-backed rebels seized much of the north and east of Congo.
Kabila's government held onto the rest only with the help of armies from
Angola, Zimbabwe and Namibia.] EDDY ISANGO, )Associated Press Writer Aug
28, 02)
> Seems the 'leftists' in the CIA disagree with your characterization of the
> country as 'marxist'.
>
Seems they are missing a lot these days.
> http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=29340&SelectRegion=Great_Lakes&S
> electCountry=CONGO
> The dictator has managed to get himself elected so technically it is a
> republic now...
>
> And there was a peace deal last month. Perhaps you missed that..
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2160522.stm
>
>
> > Angola was a socialist puppet state of the Soviet Union with 50,000 Cuban
> > troops fighting the South Africans, and against the CIA backed UNITA. The
> > same people are in charge to this day.
>
> The cold war is over. Get over it.. God, some people are just so hung up
> about USSR involvement in other countries. Nobody mentions the similar US
> puppet states....
>
The same communists are still in charge.
> >
> > Zambia (which was N. Rhodesia) was said to have sold state businesses in
> > the 90s but Mugabe's Zimbabwe (*Rhodesia) is currently using Marxist land
> > reform to oust white farmers for his comrades in arms.
>
> Actually that would be 'capitalist' land reform. There is nothing marxist
> about the concentration of land and power in the hands of the white minority
When the STATE steals the land its MARXIST LAND REFORM - they even call it
that. People starved when communists like Stalin and Pol pot did it.
> during the previous decades and there is nothing marxist about addressing
> this inequity now. Marxism actually gives all land to the state, and the
> farmers work it in 'collectives'. ergo Land reform is not 'marxist'.
>
> >
> Maoist Mozambique
> > is also said to have abandoned Marxist Lennism in 1992, but are they still
> > socialists? Even South Africa has ties to communists, after the apartheid
> > revolution, half the ANC, the armed wing, was in the Communist Party of
> > South Africa. I think the ANC still "links" to the CPSA.
>
> These pathetic attempts to deny present day reality by harking back to cold
> war politics show that you have nothing to show but a mentality mired in
> yesterdays propaganda.
The communists have covered themselves in "Green." Now they are eco-socoalists.
>
> >
> > Sweden, called a socialist state by socialists, is only listed as a
> > "Constitutional Monarchy." Apparently the CIA and the World Almanac don't
> > label ANYONE socialists. Why is that? BTW even Communist China MFN/WTO is
> > alleged to have a "market" economy.
>
> Gee... You'll just have to correct the CIA, won't you...
Well, they have become as PC as the media.
>
> Note: China *does* have a market economy, with a limited capitalism, in a
> primariliy command economy. The state has a lot of power, but leaves the
> details to the individual. You tend to be a bit 'rigid' with your
> definitions and this blinds you to the facts.
>
> > (1) KINSHASA, Congo - Uganda and Zimbabwe have begun their pledged troop
> > withdrawals from Congo, the United Nations ( news - web sites) confirmed
> > Wednesday < a rare concrete step toward ending central Africa's four-year,
> > six-nation war.
> <snip>
>
> Starvation in a war torn country is not evidence of the strength or weakness
> of the government system. One has to note also that even the U.S. converts
> to a command economy in the event of war. Apparently it has something to do
> with ensuring efficient use of resources, and to prevent hoarding and
> profiteering...
In the Case of the Congo, they changed to communism several years ago
before. Thats why they changed their name to the Democratic Republic of
the Congo. That's Marxspeak for communist.
Ian St. John
> > Nor was this your major claim. Your major claim was that Zimbabwe was
not
> > refusing the grain ( also wrong ).
> >
> You lying sack of shit. Here is my first post. You will notice a date and
> a reference. Note that Zimbabwe wasan asside at the end. You are the one
> who changed my subject, now lie about it.
You pustulent sore.. Get off my ass... Your post ( starting this
sub-thread ) was
----------------
"Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
news:B81B8807EB8C439D.96980F2A...@lp.airnews.net...
> In article <3d6bb664$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, comrade "Ian St. John"
> <ist...@spamcop.net> kangassized:
>
> > "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> >
news:7B0FD44B1F0DAF7C.D9406C60...@lp.airnews.net...
> > > In article <3d6b...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> > > <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > > I just realized that you are not talking about the subject I posed -
i.e.
> > > feeding the starving Africans with GM food. Perhaps YOU should clarify
the
> > > fact that the food we are sending them is a conspiracy to get them
hooked
> > > on GM seeds, I guess after they plant the seed. This is the first I've
> > > heard of this devious plot.
> >
> > Then you haven't been paying attention. The reason the seed is being
blocked
> > is because it is seed and Zimbabwe does not allow import of GM seed.
It's
> > the LAW.
> >
>
> Zambia is the country who will not accept the food. Zimbabwe are your
> communists buddies who take whatever the can steal.
>
<etc>----------------------------------
Ian St. John
Then please tell them so. I'm sure it will come as a surprise to them but at
least we will likely never hear from you again....
> When reading the news about the DR Congo you can't tell who
> are the Communists because of the PC media.
Oh, I see. They are only claimed to be market economies and you know this
because the voices in your head keep you from listening to the lies of the
government, media, scientists, statesmen, leaders, etc.
And here I thought it was just an empty echo...
Ian St. John
Operative work is *was*. However, as these are also described as republics
or democratic countries, I am not sure what you are trying to suggest.
> [ The war erupted out in August 1998 when Uganda and Rwanda backed Congo
> rebels in a bid to overthrow then-President Laurent Kabila. Rwanda and
> Uganda accused Kabila of harboring rebels who threatened their own
> security.
>
> The foreign-backed rebels seized much of the north and east of Congo.
> Kabila's government held onto the rest only with the help of armies from
> Angola, Zimbabwe and Namibia.] EDDY ISANGO, )Associated Press Writer Aug
> 28, 02)
African politics is so convoluted. Let us hope they get it sorted out soon.
>
> > Seems the 'leftists' in the CIA disagree with your characterization of
the
> > country as 'marxist'.
> >
> Seems they are missing a lot these days.
They missed you ( several times ) apparently. I'm sending them a new
sniperscope... ;-()
> >
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=29340&SelectRegion=Great_Lakes&S
> > electCountry=CONGO
> > The dictator has managed to get himself elected so technically it is a
> > republic now...
> >
> > And there was a peace deal last month. Perhaps you missed that..
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2160522.stm
> >
> >
> > > Angola was a socialist puppet state of the Soviet Union with 50,000
Cuban
> > > troops fighting the South Africans, and against the CIA backed UNITA.
The
> > > same people are in charge to this day.
> >
> > The cold war is over. Get over it.. God, some people are just so hung up
> > about USSR involvement in other countries. Nobody mentions the similar
US
> > puppet states....
> >
>
> The same communists are still in charge.
What? You really don't understand democracy then. The *people* are in
charge. By electing the same guy they say they buy his conversion ( where
applicable ). In any case, you do not show any communist practices in the
new government, so you have no point.
Note: As pointed out before, the new problems with famine are a consequence
of the fact that they are NOT communist ( sharing equally ) but have market
systems where the poor are allowed to starve anytime they can't come up with
enough money to buy food.
> > >
> > > Zambia (which was N. Rhodesia) was said to have sold state businesses
in
> > > the 90s but Mugabe's Zimbabwe (*Rhodesia) is currently using Marxist
land
> > > reform to oust white farmers for his comrades in arms.
> >
> > Actually that would be 'capitalist' land reform. There is nothing
marxist
> > about the concentration of land and power in the hands of the white
minority
>
> When the STATE steals the land its MARXIST LAND REFORM - they even call it
> that. People starved when communists like Stalin and Pol pot did it.
I'm sure the U.S. will be amazed that it's expropriation laws are marxist.
It will come as a shock to the legal authority in these countreis who ruled
on the legalities as well...
> > during the previous decades and there is nothing marxist about
addressing
> > this inequity now. Marxism actually gives all land to the state, and the
> > farmers work it in 'collectives'. ergo Land reform is not 'marxist'.
> >
> > >
> > Maoist Mozambique
> > > is also said to have abandoned Marxist Lennism in 1992, but are they
still
> > > socialists? Even South Africa has ties to communists, after the
apartheid
> > > revolution, half the ANC, the armed wing, was in the Communist Party
of
> > > South Africa. I think the ANC still "links" to the CPSA.
> >
> > These pathetic attempts to deny present day reality by harking back to
cold
> > war politics show that you have nothing to show but a mentality mired in
> > yesterdays propaganda.
>
> The communists have covered themselves in "Green." Now they are
eco-socoalists.
As you have not supported your 'the communists' except as a label, cannot
show any 'green politics' in the failure of the market system to maintain
minimum nutrition levels, and are just echoing those irration voices in your
head, you have covered yourself in shit. You are now brown and your logic
smells to high heaven. By analogy anyway..
> > > Sweden, called a socialist state by socialists, is only listed as a
> > > "Constitutional Monarchy." Apparently the CIA and the World Almanac
don't
> > > label ANYONE socialists. Why is that? BTW even Communist China MFN/WTO
is
> > > alleged to have a "market" economy.
> >
> > Gee... You'll just have to correct the CIA, won't you...
>
> Well, they have become as PC as the media.
Funny thing. You having to correct so many authoritative sources. Almost as
if you were an ignorant asshole just making it up as he wnet along.
> > Note: China *does* have a market economy, with a limited capitalism, in
a
> > primariliy command economy. The state has a lot of power, but leaves the
> > details to the individual. You tend to be a bit 'rigid' with your
> > definitions and this blinds you to the facts.
> >
> > > (1) KINSHASA, Congo - Uganda and Zimbabwe have begun their pledged
troop
> > > withdrawals from Congo, the United Nations ( news - web sites)
confirmed
> > > Wednesday < a rare concrete step toward ending central Africa's
four-year,
> > > six-nation war.
> > <snip>
> >
> > Starvation in a war torn country is not evidence of the strength or
weakness
> > of the government system. One has to note also that even the U.S.
converts
> > to a command economy in the event of war. Apparently it has something to
do
> > with ensuring efficient use of resources, and to prevent hoarding and
> > profiteering...
>
> In the Case of the Congo, they changed to communism several years ago
> before. Thats why they changed their name to the Democratic Republic of
> the Congo. That's Marxspeak for communist.
If that is your delusion, I will not argue. It seems a waste of time since
you cannot support your argument with any actual facts. Neither by pointing
out communist ties, nor by showing that the organization of the country is a
command economy. All you can do is make claim after claim based on your own
opinion.
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> news:C6DDDABCB3D65FDC.57DF01C8...@lp.airnews.net...
> > In article <3d6e2ab6$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> > <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> <snip>
> > > Nor was this your major claim. Your major claim was that Zimbabwe was
> not
> > > refusing the grain ( also wrong ).
> > >
> > You lying sack of shit. Here is my first post. You will notice a date and
> > a reference. Note that Zimbabwe wasan asside at the end. You are the one
> > who changed my subject, now lie about it.
>
> You pustulent sore.. Get off my ass... Your post ( starting this
> sub-thread ) was
Admit you lied. You erased my initial post again:
MORONS, LEAVE Zimbabwe!
>
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
Bwahaha, listened to too many "Death Squad" tales, comrade?
> > When reading the news about the DR Congo you can't tell who
> > are the Communists because of the PC media.
>
> Oh, I see. They are only claimed to be market economies and you know this
> because the voices in your head keep you from listening to the lies of the
> government, media, scientists, statesmen, leaders, etc.
>
> And here I thought it was just an empty echo...
Government isn't the solution, its the problem...
--Reagan
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
bwhaha "Democratic", remember E Germany - the DDR translated the
Democratic German Republic? they were plain plain old communists. Nothing
democratic about a dictatorship.
Lloyd Parker
<D17F1D54DD104E6E.ED56E5DE...@lp.airnews.net>,
wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov (Winston Smith) wrote:
>In article <3d6ea4f0$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
><ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>> "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
>>
news:3FFDE7F1911A81D5.BBB867FD...@lp.airnews.net
..
John"
>> > <ist...@spamcop.net> lies:
>> >
>> > > "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
>> > >
>>
news:22A2FED678C2ACF3.E496294D...@lp.airnews.net
..
Yet because the Nazis called themselves "National Socialists," you
right-wingers are always hollering that means they were socialists. I
know asking you to be intelligent is too much to ask, but at least try
to be consistent!
Ian St. John
> In article <3d6e...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> > "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> >
news:C6DDDABCB3D65FDC.57DF01C8...@lp.airnews.net...
> > > In article <3d6e2ab6$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> > > <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > > Nor was this your major claim. Your major claim was that Zimbabwe
was
> > not
> > > > refusing the grain ( also wrong ).
> > > >
> > > You lying sack of shit. Here is my first post. You will notice a date
and
> > > a reference. Note that Zimbabwe wasan asside at the end. You are the
one
> > > who changed my subject, now lie about it.
> >
> > You pustulent sore.. Get off my ass... Your post ( starting this
> > sub-thread ) was
>
> Admit you lied. You erased my initial post again:
Listen Witless. You may have many posts. Some of them may resemble this one.
But THIS subthread was started by
> > >
> > > Zambia is the country who will not accept the food. Zimbabwe are your
> > > communists buddies who take whatever the can steal.
> > >
> > <etc>----------------------------------
And has continued from that. You are trying to claim that because you made a
different error elsewhere, my response to THIS statement is wrong?
What a loonie loser.
Ian St. John
No. Just figured they'd lock you up and throw away the key. Wouldn't be the
first time...
OK I guess I'm not fooling you. Your posts are so pathetic and stupid that
they undoubtably will not take you seriously enough.
> > > When reading the news about the DR Congo you can't tell who
> > > are the Communists because of the PC media.
> >
> > Oh, I see. They are only claimed to be market economies and you know
this
> > because the voices in your head keep you from listening to the lies of
the
> > government, media, scientists, statesmen, leaders, etc.
> >
> > And here I thought it was just an empty echo...
>
>
> Government isn't the solution, its the problem...
> --Reagan
Reagan wasn't the solution, he was the problem...
Ditto and doubled for any of his quotes.
Ian St. John
> > "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> >
news:3FFDE7F1911A81D5.BBB867FD...@lp.airnews.net...
> > > Depends who wins, right comrade? Note the comrades who are helping the
> > > Congo are from commie Angola, Zimbabwe, and Namibia.
> >
> > Operative work is *was*. However, as these are also described as
republics
> > or democratic countries, I am not sure what you are trying to suggest.
> >
> bwhaha "Democratic", remember E Germany - the DDR translated the
> Democratic German Republic? they were plain plain old communists. Nothing
> democratic about a dictatorship.
You are welcome to try to 'correct' the dictionaries, the U.N. the CIA,
public media, CSIS, etc until your ass falls off. So many authorities seem
to find you rather stupid. I wonder why? I have a wild prediction. They
will laugh in your face. At least as long as you don't seem to a
*dangerously* deranged nutcase.
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
\
Liar, I should know how I started the thread! Anyway as of today Zambia
is still the country who will not accept the food. YOU said they did.
MORONS, LEAVE Zimbabwe!
From: C-...@clari.net (AFP / Kate Millar)
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
Reagan needs to be on Mt Rushmore.
Hey, Rush knows that it is Zambia who is rejecting genetically modified
(GM) food. Perhaps you should listen in and learn a thing or two.
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> news:D17F1D54DD104E6E.ED56E5DE...@lp.airnews.net...
> > In article <3d6ea4f0$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> > <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> <snip>
> > > "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> > >
> news:3FFDE7F1911A81D5.BBB867FD...@lp.airnews.net...
> <snip>
> > > > Depends who wins, right comrade? Note the comrades who are helping the
> > > > Congo are from commie Angola, Zimbabwe, and Namibia.
> > >
> > > Operative work is *was*. However, as these are also described as
> republics
> > > or democratic countries, I am not sure what you are trying to suggest.
> > >
> > bwhaha "Democratic", remember E Germany - the DDR translated the
> > Democratic German Republic? they were plain plain old communists. Nothing
> > democratic about a dictatorship.
>
>
> You are welcome to try to 'correct' the dictionaries, the U.N. the CIA,
> public media, CSIS, etc until your ass falls off. So many authorities seem
> to find you rather stupid. I wonder why? I have a wild prediction. They
> will laugh in your face. At least as long as you don't seem to a
> *dangerously* deranged nutcase.
Ho Hummmmmmm,
another ad hominem
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> news:B81B8807EB8C439D.96980F2A...@lp.airnews.net...
> > In article <3d6bb664$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, comrade "Ian St. John"
> > <ist...@spamcop.net> kangassized:
> >
> > > "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> > >
> news:7B0FD44B1F0DAF7C.D9406C60...@lp.airnews.net...
> > > > In article <3d6b...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> > > > <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > > > I just realized that you are not talking about the subject I posed -
> i.e.
> > > > feeding the starving Africans with GM food. Perhaps YOU should clarify
> the
> > > > fact that the food we are sending them is a conspiracy to get them
> hooked
> > > > on GM seeds, I guess after they plant the seed. This is the first I've
> > > > heard of this devious plot.
> > >
> > > Then you haven't been paying attention. The reason the seed is being
> blocked
> > > is because it is seed and Zimbabwe does not allow import of GM seed.
> It's
> > > the LAW.
> > >
> >
> > Zambia is the country who will not accept the food. <ws>
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/famine/story/0,12128,737470,00.html
> Gripped by severe food shortages, with a potentially vast famine looming,
> the Zimbabwean authorities have rejected a US government donation of 10,000
> tonnes of maize, worth $6m, because it has not been certified as free from
> genetic modification.
>
> http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/reliefresources/482233?version=1
> Zambia initially refused U.S. corn, but then accepted it.
>
> Any chance of you actually getting *one* fact right???
>
> > Zimbabwe are your communists buddies who take
> > whatever the can steal.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2027079.stm
> Southern Africa's famine: Country by country mostly caused by drought or
> flood..
>
> http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
> Angola: nominally a multiparty democracy
> Zambia: Republic;president elected by popular vote for a
> five-year term
> Zimbabwe: parliamentary democracy
> Mozambique: republic;president elected by popular vote for a five-year
> term
> Malawi: multiparty democracy
> Lesotho: parliamentary constitutional monarchy
> Swaziland: monarchy; independent member of Commonwealth
>
> Funny... Not a socialist in the bunch. Primarily market economies, based
> on democracy or republics with popular elections.
>
> >
> >
> > > They have expressed no reservations of accepting the FOOD.
> > >
> > > The reason for the LAW is as stated.
> > >
> > > Subsistence farming is based on 'seed saving' which normally propagates
> > > suitable local varieties. However, GM seed doesn't LOOK any different,
> so
> > > the subsistence farmer is likely to plant some of it, if given our as
> seed.
> > > This is not only logical, it has happened over and over. Look at GM
> > > contamination of Mexican corn varieties.
> >
> > And the Mexicans are running out of tortillas because of this? NOT!
>
> Playing stupid is so passe...
>
> You are playing...right?
>
>
> > > And the GM companies know it, and use political pressure to try to get
> the
> > > seed into the countreis by any excuse, knowing that it will inevitably
> > > result in genetic contamination of local crops. Once the corn is
> > > contaminated, that will open up the legal challenges for Monsanto, for
> > > example, to gain an stranglehold on the cotton crop, since blocking GM
> > > varieties will be a 'spent effort'. They really don't care about the
> local
> > > corn farmers or famine. They want the big markets.
> > >
> > > Mill the seed. Feed the famine victims. Problem solved.
> >
> >
> > Ian, the MEDIA is reporting that Zambia will not accept our food aid. <ws>
>
> Witless.. The MEDIA is reporting that the food went to Zambia and Malawi
> after some initial reluctance.
>
And that's why they are starving?
> > If someone else in the Ministry of Truth (MINITRU) has written a
> > doubleplusungood account of the African Aid, I'll have them sent to Rm.
> > 101 in the Ministry of Love. (MINILUV)
>
> Oh?
>
> Try google with "Zimbabwe seed GM refused" and be prepared for a few hundred
> newpapers that need 'correcting' in your 'ministry of truth'.
>
>
YOU are changing the subject.
> > >
> > > > > > Starving people who wont eat it to save their lives deserve to be
> > > > > > naturally de-selected, and leaders who reject their food are
> > > > > > murderers.
> > > > >
> > > > > So you blame the Ag-Business that is pressuring government to
> prevent
> > > > > milling of the seeds, while holding the starving peasants at ransom?
> > > > >
> > > > Prove your thesis first.
> > >
> > > Your ignorance is not my problem. Do your own research.
> > >
> > > > > It is good to know who is at FAULT in this situation. Mobutu seems
> quite
> > > > > willing to distribute milled grain. The peasants are quite willing
> to
> > > > > accept the resulting meal. Ergo, where is the problem and who is the
> actual
> > > > > criminal? Too bad these arrogant pigs won't pay the price.
> >
> >
> > You act like the beggars don't know how to mill grain. Is that our job? If
> > they don't have spoons, should the US spoon feed them?
>
> Nope. I agree that the solution is to mill the grain and this can be done in
> Zimbabwe easily. Why hasn't it? You have the Zimbabwe governmetn which has
> agreed that the solution is to mill the grain, and you have the American
> negotiators.
>
> Who is bogging things down?
>
> And why?
>
So, we were talking about Zambia. See:
> >
> > If the Zambian government decides that GM grain is a worse threat that
> > starvation, then the bureaucrats are to blame and the people should burn
> > their houses down (with them inside.) The tragedy is that the poor cannot
> > read this else they wouldn't actually be starving.
> >
> > This isn't hate speech, its freedomspeak.
>
> No. It is stupidspeak mixed with ignorantspeak. You have both your facts
> wrong and your basis for objection is lacking in substance. Mill the seed.
> End of problem. What is so hard for you to understand??
>
You - you are covering up this post as of Sat. 8/31/02. Why do you lie
when anyone can read what a moron you are?
> >
> > --
> > "Self-defense is justly called the primary law of nature, so it is not,
> > neither can it be in fact, taken away by laws of society."
> > -- Sir William Blackstone
Ian St. John
Obviously you have problems with 'moving on'. The postings on some threads
change drastically from the post that started it all. When someone makes a
different point or claim, and the responses are directed at that point, it
is stupid to point to the original post and claim that you are right because
the response is not relevant to the start of the total thread. You created
this subthread by your statement given above that Zambia had refused GM corn
and that Zimbabwe was stealing it.
> Anyway as of today Zambia is still the country who will not
> accept the food. YOU said they did.
Actually, the final decision was announnced late on the Friday, the 16th,
http://ens-news.com/ens/aug2002/2002-08-19-05.asp but not reported until
Monday the 20th. It is *possible* that your reference from the 17th was a
report on this, but since it said nothing about this being a new change, or
of the decisions to buy local grain, it is impossible to determine if this
referred to the initial refusal or the later refusal. I said it did based on
the fact that all my searches came up with the fact that after the early
refusal, Zambia accepted the grain, and I did not see the later reversal.
Not that this makes your statement any more true, since you also tied the
refusal to Zimbabwe stealing the grain, which I knew to be false both in
terms of refusal and in terms of theft, as well as in terms of calling them
communists.
I will admit to an error in not finding the reference to the later refusal,
but this is a drop in the bucket compared to your continual and incessant
errors.
>
> eViL Chicken Littles Kill Starving Africans
Calling the GM seed companies "evil chicken littles' does nothing for your
arugments. They are not killing anyone, but merely refusing to help, in
order to use the 'politics of starvation' promote their GM seed varieties.
Ethically, it is reprehenible, but it is not acutal killing.
> <me> The government of Zambia is rejecting genetically modified (GM) food
> which could save their citizens because the EVIL Chicken Littles panicked
> them from accepting GM food. Even if GM food was radioactive (which it
> isn't for you eco-socialist panic mongers) they would escape death by
> decades. The propaganda against bioengineered food is unscrupulous. The
> Chicken Lichen irrational rejection of salvation through a GM free lunch
> is beyond science and logic. There may be problems, but feeding starving
> people isn't one of them. How do you cure irrational fear?
See a psychiatrist. On the other hand, what is irrational about keeping
locally suitable seed crops? Their is no rejection due to fears of the GM
seed being poisonous. All countries have agreed to allowing the GM corn as
long as it is milled and cannot be used as seed. You have shown no
'irrational fear' or "irrational rejection of salvation through a GM free
lunch". The "GM"ness of the grain was not a factor in the 'free lunch'
unless you are saying that it was sent because Europe rejected it as
contaminated and therefore it was sent rather than go to waste...
As to the food issue, the point you keep skipping over is that Zambia IS
providing grain from local suppliers which makes your whole argument rather
irrational. From the reference above "By international treaty, nations can
refuse to allow genetically modified foods to cross their border" so you are
promoting definance of international law as well as false arguments about
"starving the people" by refusing contaminated grain as seed.
>
> These eco-nazis are evil beyond belief.
You sure are.
> re: In southern African famine, Zambia alone rejects GM food: WFP
>
> GENEVA, Aug 23 2002(AFP/Clari.net fair use) - The World Food Programme
> (WFP) on Friday said that Zambia was now the only famine-hit southern
> African country to reject genetically-modified food aide after concerns
> raised by Zimbabwe and Mozambique were resolved.
So, only Zambia is providing it's own relief. As to the 'concerns of
Zimbabwe and Mozambique', these are code for *MILLING THE GRAIN* you fucking
stupid turdhead.
Do you think we are so stupid as to not know that??? As I said, if the
question is feeding the starving with GM corn, then mill the grain.
Note: As I have said repeatedly, the problems are lack of money in a market
economy, not lack of food. Food aid is not about it being food, but about it
being free.
http://ens-news.com/ens/aug2002/2002-08-19-05.asp
"These Zambian women have walked 50 kilometres (30 miles) to the Zimbabwean
border to sell water to truck drivers in an effort to raise cash to be able
to afford food. (Photo © WFP/Brenda Barton)"
"Recently, a group of 8,000 small-scale farmers protested the importation of
genetically modified maize from America, fearing the dislocation of the
local farming systems and indigenous crop varieties."
Economic coercion by fatcat GM seed monopolies is EVIL.
>
> WFP's Executive Director James Morris said he was very worried about the
> more than two million people at risk of starvation in Zambia, one of six
> badly-affected countries in the region.
>
> "There are no biotech-GM issues in Malawi, Swaziland or Lesotho. We've
> essentially resolved the biotech-GM issues in Zimbabwe and in Mozambique,"
> Morris told a press conference.
Yes. Having no GM testing or agricultural research it is easier to dupe
small poor countries.
And the smarter countries will accept the milled corn as it's use as food
will not contaminate local seed varieties.
>
> <me> Man, are we giving the commies in Zimbabwe food? IDIOTS!
There are no communist countries involved as you well know. Nor is their
government based on command economies. The zimbabwe women walking to sell
water to buy food shows clearly that they cannot count on a command economy
but are subject to the market system which has no mercy on the poor.
The IDIOTS, I presume applies to yourself since you repeatedly make idiotic
claims which can easily be shown to be such.
> ...
> The World Health Organisation earlier Friday announced it had called a
> three-day meeting in Harare, Zimbabwe, from Monday to be attended by
> health ministers from 10 African countries to discuss the health aspects
> of the humanitarian crisis...
>
> MORONS, LEAVE Zimbabwe!
Are you in Zimbabwe?? Or are you referring to the World Health Organization?
I can assure you that they are not morons.
Ian St. John
> In article <3d6f...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> > "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> >
news:E162D25C46C85098.E218C06A...@lp.airnews.net...
> > > Government isn't the solution, its the problem...
> > > --Reagan
> >
> > Reagan wasn't the solution, he was the problem...
> >
> > Ditto and doubled for any of his quotes.
>
> Reagan needs to be on Mt Rushmore.
According to Reagans quote, not only should *he* not be on Mt. Rushmore, but
neither should Washington, Roosevelt, Jefferson or Lincoln..
>
> Hey, Rush knows that it is Zambia who is rejecting genetically modified
> (GM) food. Perhaps you should listen in and learn a thing or two.
From Rush Limbaugh??? Not likely. No matter how fresh his sources of data,
his conclusions are suspect. Not bad though for an under-educated fast
talker with a message that is welcomed by fools and imbeciles. The general
public is dumb. Just look at TV where he has his audience..
Keep looking at it.
Just a few more hours... Gotta see the soaps...
Do you feel smarter yet?
Ian St. John
Please follow the thread.
You notice that this one is not indented with the one where you made the
claim?
It is a different thread. One in which you made a few dozen errors, and I
missed a recent change in the situation due to the lack of specifics.
On balance, the idiot here is you. By about 100 to 1..
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
You erased my thread again to deny what you said comrade Ian St. Nixon!
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> lies and obfuscation:
I was willing to admit error on this when you said I was wrong, because
its pretty black and white, whether Zambia accepts US GM corn or not, but
you have been engaged in obfuscation since it became obvious YOU were the
one in error. When you start claiming I said things I didn't say, that
transcends being wrong to lying and covering up the truth.
The contention is over.
> >
> > eViL Chicken Littles Kill Starving Africans
>
> Calling the GM seed companies "evil chicken littles' does nothing for your
> arugments.
You liar. I was talking about Zambia you evil lying troll, this is not
over until you admit you are a liar.
The contention is NOT over.
Winston Smith
NIXON) <ist...@spamcop.net> lies with obfuscation:
He was right and you not only are wrong but lied about it and covered up
you lies with obfuscation.
Ian St. John
> In article <3d71...@audacity.velocet.net>, comrade "Ian St. John"
> <ist...@spamcop.net> lies and obfuscation:
You are still delusional. You are like the man who complains about the spec
in anothers eye while ignoring the beam in his own.
Ian St. John
<snip>
> In article <3d71...@audacity.velocet.net>, comrade "Ian St. John"
> <ist...@spamcop.net> lies and obfuscation:
>
> >
> > Calling the GM seed companies "evil chicken littles' does nothing for
your
> > arugments.
>
> You liar. I was talking about Zambia you evil lying troll, this is not
> over until you admit you are a liar.
>
> The contention is NOT over.
You are referring to those who are 'killing starving africans"
Obviously that refers to those who both provide food unfit for consumption
and at the same time try to overcharge for it, while holding the poor
countries at hostage.
As there is no other contender for your "evil chicken littles" I made a
logical conclusion.
Ian St. John
> In article <3d71...@audacity.velocet.net>, comrade "Ian St. John" (AKA
> NIXON) <ist...@spamcop.net> lies with obfuscation:
> > > Hey, Rush knows that it is Zambia who is rejecting genetically
modified
> > > (GM) food. Perhaps you should listen in and learn a thing or two.
> >
> > From Rush Limbaugh??? Not likely. No matter how fresh his sources of
data,
> > his conclusions are suspect. Not bad though for an under-educated fast
> > talker with a message that is welcomed by fools and imbeciles. The
general
> > public is dumb. Just look at TV where he has his audience..
> >
> He was right and you not only are wrong but lied about it and covered up
> you lies with obfuscation.
Now you are claiming that Rush Limbaugh made a post claiming the Zambia
refused the contaminated and overpriced grain 'aid'.
He did mention that it was contaminated and unfit for human consumption?
Did he mention that it was not 'food aid' but being offered for purchase
with loan guarantees?
I'm wondering if he lies better than you.
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> news:DD5F83FDCC1B045C.9630060E...@lp.airnews.net...
> > In article <3d71...@audacity.velocet.net>, comrade "Ian St. John" (AKA
> > NIXON) <ist...@spamcop.net> lies with obfuscation:
> <snp>
> > > > Hey, Rush knows that it is Zambia who is rejecting genetically
> modified
> > > > (GM) food. Perhaps you should listen in and learn a thing or two.
> > >
> > > From Rush Limbaugh??? Not likely. No matter how fresh his sources of
> data,
> > > his conclusions are suspect. Not bad though for an under-educated fast
> > > talker with a message that is welcomed by fools and imbeciles. The
> general
> > > public is dumb. Just look at TV where he has his audience..
> > >
> > He was right and you not only are wrong but lied about it and covered up
> > you lies with obfuscation.
>
> Now you are claiming that Rush Limbaugh made a post claiming the Zambia
> refused the contaminated and overpriced grain 'aid'.
>
No moron, you are claiming that.
> He did mention that it was contaminated and unfit for human consumption?
>
> Did he mention that it was not 'food aid' but being offered for purchase
> with loan guarantees?
>
> I'm wondering if he lies better than you.
I have the goods on you comrade eco-socialist.
--------
In article <3d6c5dbd$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> news:B81B8807EB8C439D.96980F2A...@lp.airnews.net...
> > In article <3d6bb664$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, comrade "Ian St. John"
> > <ist...@spamcop.net> kangassized:
> >
> > > "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> > >
> news:7B0FD44B1F0DAF7C.D9406C60...@lp.airnews.net...
> > > > In article <3d6b...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> > > > <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > > > I just realized that you are not talking about the subject I posed -
> i.e.
> > > > feeding the starving Africans with GM food. Perhaps YOU should clarify
> the
> > > > fact that the food we are sending them is a conspiracy to get them
> hooked
> > > > on GM seeds, I guess after they plant the seed. This is the first I've
> > > > heard of this devious plot.
> > >
> > > Then you haven't been paying attention. The reason the seed is being
> blocked
> > > is because it is seed and Zimbabwe does not allow import of GM seed.
> It's
> > > the LAW.
> > >
> >
> > Zambia is the country who will not accept the food. (Ian)
Then you lied and said you were talking about something else, like the
above obfuscation.
--------
re: Greens accused of helping Africans starve
GreenWatch: Eco-Socialists convince ZAMBIA it starve
<me> Hey Ian St. John- they are talking about your green comrades again.
Yah, even Rush has been listening to your lies, yah, I heard him... he
said Zambia won't accept food aid despite starving citizens. I recall you
calling me a liar earlier for saying this.
I recall you called me all kinds of names too.
Eco-socialists kill people to "save the planet."
re: Greens accused of helping Africans starve
JOHANNESBURG ‹ U.S. AID Administrator Andrew Natsios accused environmental
groups yesterday of endangering the lives of millions of famine-threatened
Africans by encouraging their governments to reject genetically modified
U.S. food aid.
"They can play these games with Europeans, who have full stomachs, but it
is revolting and despicable to see them do so when the lives of Africans
are at stake," Mr. Natsios said in an interview.
Mr. Natsios did not name specific groups, but other officials indicated he
was infuriated by the activities in Zambia ‹ a country he had just visited
‹ of groups including Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth.
"They are using big-time, very well-organized propaganda the likes of
which I have never seen before" in 12 years of American-led famine-relief
efforts, said Mr. Natsios, who could not persuade the Zambians to accept
U.S. food aid.
"The Bush administration is not going to sit there and let these groups
kill millions of poor people in southern Africa through their ideological
campaign," Mr. Natsios said on the sidelines of the World Summit on
Sustainable Development.
The American aid chief, touring two of the seven southern African
countries hit by severe food shortages, had just arrived from Lusaka,
Zambia, where he failed to persuade President Levy Mwanawasa to accept
American corn.
About 17,000 tons of American corn, about 30 percent of which was grown
from genetically modified corn seeds, is sitting in storage in Zambia.
34 MILLION POUNDS of FOOD and the idiots turn up their noses? Get a rope!
Officials said Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, other pressure groups and
a Jesuit priest have been intensively lobbying Zambia and other regional
states not to take the corn. According to Agence France-Presse, Mozambique
also has reservations about accepting genetically modified corn from the
United States.
The United States insists the corn is safe, but the environmental groups
say it could cause dangerous mutations if it grows alongside the local
varieties. They have also told Zambian and other African leaders that it
could endanger the health of those who eat it.
...
Clearly angry, the USAID administrator said he would "go on the offensive"
to discredit the international advocacy groups who, he said, were
endangering millions for ideological purposes.
U.N. officials have also pleaded with the Zambian government to reconsider
its position. The World Health Organization said there is no evidence that
such food is dangerous, while the WFP's director, James Morris, said there
is no way his organization can feed Zambia's hungry without genetically
modified food.
...
By Paul Martin and Nicole Itano THE WASHINGTON TIMES
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20020830-2441442.htm
Ian St. John
> In article <3d7157de$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> > "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> >
news:DD5F83FDCC1B045C.9630060E...@lp.airnews.net...
> > > In article <3d71...@audacity.velocet.net>, comrade "Ian St. John"
(AKA
> > > NIXON) <ist...@spamcop.net> lies with obfuscation:
> > <snp>
> > > > > Hey, Rush knows that it is Zambia who is rejecting genetically
> > modified
> > > > > (GM) food. Perhaps you should listen in and learn a thing or two.
> > > >
> > > > From Rush Limbaugh??? Not likely. No matter how fresh his sources of
> > data,
> > > > his conclusions are suspect. Not bad though for an under-educated
fast
> > > > talker with a message that is welcomed by fools and imbeciles. The
> > general
> > > > public is dumb. Just look at TV where he has his audience..
> > > >
> > > He was right and you not only are wrong but lied about it and covered
up
> > > you lies with obfuscation.
> >
> > Now you are claiming that Rush Limbaugh made a post claiming the Zambia
> > refused the contaminated and overpriced grain 'aid'.
> >
>
> No moron, you are claiming that.
No. YOU claimed it by saying that Rush Limbaugh was 'right' on Zambia. I
personally didn't know he'd even posted anything here, much less been right
about his claims.
> > He did mention that it was contaminated and unfit for human consumption?
> >
> > Did he mention that it was not 'food aid' but being offered for purchase
> > with loan guarantees?
> >
> > I'm wondering if he lies better than you.
>
> I have the goods on you comrade eco-socialist.
I guess he must. Your lies are pretty pathetic.
Moron. You attribute your OWN statement to me???
Putting (Ian) at the end of the statement that YOU make does not make it my
statement.
I was the one mkaing the "It's the LAW." paragraphs to which you responded
with this idiocy.
> --------
> re: Greens accused of helping Africans starve
>
> GreenWatch: Eco-Socialists convince ZAMBIA it starve
>
> <me> Hey Ian St. John- they are talking about your green comrades again.
>
Still not sure who you are claiming to be eco-socialists. The parties here
seem to be the country of Zambia vs the World Bank and GM seed companies
intent of foisting Starlink contaminated cattle feed off as food for
exorbiatant prices. Did Rush mention that part?
> Yah, even Rush has been listening to your lies, yah, I heard him... he
> said Zambia won't accept food aid despite starving citizens. I recall you
> calling me a liar earlier for saying this.
Still working at obsfucation? You made several mistakes.
You said that Zimbabwe was not refusing food ( it was)
You said that Zimbabwe was communist ( it's not )
You said that Zimbabwe was stealing ( it isn't )
Then you said that Zambia was the country refusing aid, which is wrong in
terms that many others countries were refusing aid and was wrong in terms
that while earlier they had refused the aid, they had relented and for a
long time were on track to use it ( why do you think it's in the warehouses,
you bleeding idiot? Your bacon was saved on this because Zambia found out
about the contamination and decide that it didn't want contaminated cattle
feed. So, while technically you were right in that your reference COULD have
been aware of the later turnaround and not just pointing to the first
refusal, there is no reason to believe that it was anything more than a
fluke on your part that you *could* have been right They made no reference
to buying local supplies of HUMAN food.
I still have some problem with the whole 'food aid' thing. It's being
presented as if the food was being donated instead of sold for ruinous
prices using extortion ( loans tied to purchase of cattle feed for human
consumption ) to try to pressure poor countries in distress.
What kind of 'aid' is that??? The whole mafia 'extortion racket' could be
called 'aid' by those standards...
Does Rush mention that this is a SALE of contaminated grain by greedy
corporations?
>
> I recall you called me all kinds of names too.
Naw, name calling requires that the name be inappropriate. I.E. calling a
guy a girl. He has a right to be upset. But calling a boy a boy is not name
calling. Nor is calling an idiot an idiot. You *earned* those labels. Be
proud of you record. Nobody else in all my time posting on usenet has the
record you have for making totally inane posts.
>
> Eco-socialists kill people to "save the planet."
See?? First you manufacture a label that fits no-one. Then you make up a
'factoid' without support.
It is an amazing gift to be so witless. Nobody can touch you for just plain
stupidity and false statements.
>
> re: Greens accused of helping Africans starve
>
> JOHANNESBURG < U.S. AID Administrator Andrew Natsios accused environmental
> groups yesterday of endangering the lives of millions of famine-threatened
> Africans by encouraging their governments to reject genetically modified
> U.S. food aid.
>
> "They can play these games with Europeans, who have full stomachs, but it
> is revolting and despicable to see them do so when the lives of Africans
> are at stake," Mr. Natsios said in an interview.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/IMF_WB/PlunderHumanFace.html
World Bank policies have devastated the Third World. Between 1984 and l990,
developing countries under SAPs transferred $178 billion to Western
commercial banks. So enormous was the capital drain from the South that one
former Bank director remarked: "Not since the conquistadors plundered Latin
America has the world experienced such a flow in the direction we see
today." By severely restricting government spending in favor of debt
repayment, the loan terms of the Bank and the IMF have eviscerated the state
they wish to be "effective," leaving in its wake spiraling poverty and
hunger fueled by slashed food subsidies and decimated health and education
sectors. "
>
> Mr. Natsios did not name specific groups, but other officials indicated he
> was infuriated by the activities in Zambia < a country he had just visited
> < of groups including Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/IMF_WB/PlunderHumanFace.html
"From 1990 to 1993, Zambia spent $37 million for primary school education
while giving 1.3 billion to international bankers. Annually, Ghana spends
about $75 million on all social programs, less than 20 percent of its
payments to foreign creditors. Uganda spends less than $1 per capita on
primary health as opposed to $9 per person for debt repayment. These three
countries (considered models by the World Bank for their diligence in
carrying out austerity programs) sent $2.7 billion to international bankers
in 1994."
>
> "They are using big-time, very well-organized propaganda the likes of
> which I have never seen before" in 12 years of American-led famine-relief
> efforts, said Mr. Natsios, who could not persuade the Zambians to accept
> U.S. food aid.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/IMF_WB/PlunderHumanFace.html
"While worsening poverty in the Third World with its extreme austerity
measures, the World Bank has been loath to take its own medicine and has
spent the money taken from necessary services in the South on luxuries for
itself. The compensation for its president is $105,000 a year while the
senior 74 officers receive more than $120,000. Employees have access to a
free health club and complimentary vacation travel. Michael Irwin, a former
personnel manager, described Bank employees as "living and working
comfortably in the Washington area, and venturing forth in luxury...out of
touch with both the realities and causes of poverty in the Third World. "
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/IMF_WB/PlunderHumanFace.html
"The World Bank is currently renovating its headquarters for $314
million-more than $100 million above the original estimate. About $300
million of this comes from the $2.7 billion loan repayment of Uganda, Ghana,
and Zambia in 1994. The remodeling includes the insertion of gold leaf on
ceilings at an estimated cost of $1 million. Also being used is anegre, a
very expensive wood from Africa. The wood took four years to collect and the
company carrying out the work was paid more than $1 million."
>
> "The Bush administration is not going to sit there and let these groups
> kill millions of poor people in southern Africa through their ideological
> campaign," Mr. Natsios said on the sidelines of the World Summit on
> Sustainable Development.
>
> The American aid chief, touring two of the seven southern African
> countries hit by severe food shortages, had just arrived from Lusaka,
> Zambia, where he failed to persuade President Levy Mwanawasa to accept
> American corn.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/IMF_WB/PlunderHumanFace.html
The U.S. Connection
It is hard to believe that the World Bank did not know about the disastrous
effects its policies would have on the Third World whatever its officials
might say. The Bank is dominated by the United States and has long
functioned as an arm of U.S. foreign policy. The most notorious case of U.S.
manipulation of Bank policy was the ending of loans to the elected
government of Salvador Allende in Chile-the first step in a U. S . -planned
destabilization. Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger used the Bank to (as the
president stated) "make the Chilean economy scream." The subsequent economic
crisis "paved the way for the bloody coup of 1973." The U.S. then poured aid
on the military dictatorship of Pinochet who killed Allende and 5,000 to
3O,OOO Chileans. From 1973 to 1976, the World Bank gave Chile $350.5
million, almost 13 times the $27.7 million it gave during the 3-year Allende
presidency.
>
> About 17,000 tons of American corn, about 30 percent of which was grown
> from genetically modified corn seeds, is sitting in storage in Zambia.
>
> 34 MILLION POUNDS of FOOD and the idiots turn up their noses? Get a rope!
Thanks. I was having a hard time getting the numbers for the shipment.
The World bank loan guarantees are for $50M, so we're talking $US1.47 per
pound? Even in america that would be grand theft.... if it were
uncontaminated by cattle food and marketeable.
>
> Officials said Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, other pressure groups and
> a Jesuit priest have been intensively lobbying Zambia and other regional
> states not to take the corn. According to Agence France-Presse, Mozambique
> also has reservations about accepting genetically modified corn from the
> United States.
>
> The United States insists the corn is safe, but the environmental groups
> say it could cause dangerous mutations if it grows alongside the local
> varieties. They have also told Zambian and other African leaders that it
> could endanger the health of those who eat it.
Yes. But notice that while they are quite happy with Zambians eating food
deemed as "not fit for human consumption" in the U.S. while declaringt that
"no really it's fine" "just a little more". "how are you feeling now?"
http://www.foe.org/foodaid/food_aid_release-20020610.pdf
But then Americans will say anything to make a buck off of othere people
problems..
> ...
> Clearly angry, the USAID administrator said he would "go on the offensive"
> to discredit the international advocacy groups who, he said, were
> endangering millions for ideological purposes.
http://www.foe.org/foodaid/food_aid_release-20020610.pdf
La Paz, Rome,Washington, DC - The Bolivian Forum on Environment and
Development (FOBOMADE), a citizens' group in Bolivia, announced today that a
sample of U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) food aid tested
positive for the presence of StarLink genetically engineered corn, a variety
not approved for human consumption due to health concerns.
Sounds like USAID has a credibility problem...
>
> U.N. officials have also pleaded with the Zambian government to reconsider
> its position. The World Health Organization said there is no evidence that
> such food is dangerous, while the WFP's director, James Morris, said there
> is no way his organization can feed Zambia's hungry without genetically
> modified food.
"The U.S. considers this genetically engineered corn unfit for human
consumption and has banned it for years. Yet it has been sent to Bolivia as
food aid," said Gabriel Hervas, President of the Bolivian Forum on
Environment and Development."
And now Zambia is the target. Of course they won't send real food. They want
to make money off this failed product by selling it at extortionist prices
and refusing all other options.
> ...
>
> By Paul Martin and Nicole Itano THE WASHINGTON TIMES
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20020830-2441442.htm
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/IMF_WB/PlunderHumanFace.html
The insistence on capital liberalization is revealing of the true agenda of
the World Bank and the IMF since 1945: fully integrating the Third World
into the global capitalist system in the subordinate position of raw
material supplier and open market. The fulfillment of this agenda has
involved the use of U.S. military power in combination with World Bank-IMF
economic programs to crush Third World governments aspiring to independent
development. No talk of poverty can hide such a brutal enterprise.
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
Bwhahaha, I'll eat the corn dipshit.
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
Zambia still will not accept our food aid. That is not delusional. You
greenies convinced the Zambian leadershit that starvation is better than
eating GM food. MORONS!
Lloyd Parker
<B1DF92DC83954CD6.CB4ED6B3...@lp.airnews.net>,
wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov (Winston Smith) wrote:
>In article <3d6f...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
><ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>> "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
>>
news:E162D25C46C85098.E218C06A...@lp.airnews.net
..
>> > <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > > "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
>> > >
>>
news:05EF0654773ADAFF.0B8A5BBD...@lp.airnews.net
..
Well, his brain is pretty much stone now.
Winston Smith
Ian St. John
> > >> >
> > >> > Government isn't the solution, its the problem...
> > >> > --Reagan
> > >>
> > >> Reagan wasn't the solution, he was the problem...
> > >>
> > >> Ditto and doubled for any of his quotes.
> > >
> > >Reagan needs to be on Mt Rushmore.
>
> Reagan needs to be on Mt Rushmore.
You said that before and it still isn't true. He claimed to be not only
'part of the problem' but the *primary cause* as head of the problem
generating machinery...
We tend to idolize people who at least attempt to fight the good fight, not
those who add to the problems. By his own claims he is barred from any place
of honor.
Think of this as his legacy...
Ian St. John
Go ahead. "Fit for human consumption" isn't required in your case. You
aren't on a subsistence diet, are you? And I'm sure that paying even
$10.00/lb for the 'priviledge' of eating cattle feed would not be too much
for you.
I have concern only for the poor and starving Africans. *You* can take your
own chances.
Ian St. John
> In article <3d715620$1...@audacity.velocet.net>, "Ian St. John"
> <ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> > "Winston Smith" <wsm...@minitrue.oceana.gov> wrote in message
> >
news:179A31BAF9AD8A45.A46DD697...@lp.airnews.net...
> > > The contention is over.
> >
> > You are still delusional. You are like the man who complains about the
spec
> > in anothers eye while ignoring the beam in his own.
>
> Zambia still will not accept our food aid. That is not delusional.
Zambia will not BUY overpriced catttle feed for it's citizens!!! They
already have debts to the World Bank of six times their GDP and can't afford
to be extorted into big loans to buy overpriced and contaminated food.
Malawi wouldn't even be in a famine if the World Bank hadn't forced it to
sell stored maize to make payments on it's debt!!!
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/isis25.htm
"Malawi incidentally is faced with famine after it was forced to sell maize
to earn dollars for debt servicing. Explains Ann Pettifor of the New
Economics Foundation: Just three months before the food crisis hit, Malawi
was encouraged by the World Bank "to keep foreign exchange instead of
storing grain" Why? Because foreign exchange is needed to repay debts.
Creditors will not accept debt repayments in Malawian Kwachas. Or indeed in
bags of maize. Only "greenbacks" or other hard currencies will do."
"One of Malawi's key commercial creditors needed to have their debt repaid,
according to Malawi's president, who in a BBC interview said the government
"had been forced (to sell maize) in order to repay commercial loans taken
out to buy surplus maize in previous years". President Muluzi said the IMF
and the World Bank "insisted that, since Malawi had a surplus and the
(government's) National Food Reserve Agency had this huge loan, they had to
sell the maize to repay the commercial banks." So Malawi duly sold 28,000
tonnes of maize to Kenya. Under pressure from her creditors, led by the
World Bank and the IMF, Malawi exchanged maize-her people's staple diet-for
dollars."
They are NOT stupid, you fucking moronic asshole. They could buy some of the
wholesome Indian surplus that is going for a fraction of the cost.
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/isis25.htm
"With 65 million tonnes foodgrains stockpiled in the open, and that too of
non genetically modified grain, WFP will do well to purchase instead from
India. With the grain from the reserves priced at Rs 4 to Rs 5 a kg (less
than 10 American cents a kilo), the WFP will not find cheaper food available
anywhere. But this will not happen, in other words will not be allowed to
happen. After all, the impending famine in Africa opens up a new market to
sustain the multi-billion dollar US biotechnology industry. What happens in
the bargain to the resulting crisis in human health and misery, and
environment contamination from GMOs is none of the concern of the American
grain merchants. In fact, it never was. "
> You greenies convinced the Zambian leadershit that
> starvation is better than eating GM food. MORONS!
Extortion and manipulation of the 'turd world' 'leadershit' by the forces of
evil represented by the World Bank and GM seed suppliers will not happen,
you incredibly stupid excuse for as anus. Sneer, rant and promote hatred if
you want. You still have nothing to show that either greens are behind the
decisions or that the 'food aid' is in any way a good deal, to be embraced.
Thanks, by the way. Your posts pushed me into finding more evidence of the
TOTAL CRAP that is forming the basis of this extortionist plot to replace
wholesome local produce with surplus contaminated grain as a 'deal you can't
refuse' ( as the Mafia used to put it)..
Winston Smith
<ist...@spamcop.net> wrote:
I'm glad we are not putting a penis on Mt Rushmore as Clintons legacy.
Ian St. John
Damn! Now you have said something I have to agree with.... no fair!
TruthAndReason
It would certainly be more representative of America than Ronald Reagan's
face.