Another U.S. Plant Closes: Can't Compete with Chinese Slave Labor
jonse
Furniture
6/8/2006
LSN News
Roanoke, Virginia -- A major Roanoke employer, Hooker Furniture, has
decided to shut down its Roanoke, Virginia furniture plant as part of
a continuing long term policy of sending the jobs of white working
class people to China.
Management and white collar positions will be consolidated at the
company's last remaining factory in the US down in Martinsville, while
the company's workers will see their positions shifted over to Chinese
slave labor.
Since 2000, Hooker has been reinventing itself as a distributor of
furniture made by Chinese prison labor and people held in Chinese re-
education camps, eliminating any actual manufacture of goods and
firing hundreds of US workers, most of them in Southern Virginia.
Hooker officials say they simply can't compete with furniture that is
being allowed into the US under China's Most Favored Nation trade
status and the continuing Bush government policies of free trade with
countries who force their population to work for free.
This pattern of shifting manufacture from US to Chinese companies is
what is known as the "Walmart effect", from the retailer who invented
it. Walmart has driven down prices by forcing the production of most
US goods overseas, but, ironically, has driven down wages further than
prices by eliminating the jobs of those US workers who produce such
goods.
Love my Occidental Petrolium Stock $$$ @tobaccofarm.com AL Big Oil Global Warming Gore
"jonse" <9083...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:1149790851....@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Roanoke Company Sends Jobs To China 275 Left Unemployed By Hooker
> Furniture
>
> 6/8/2006
>
> LSN News
Wha a shame, 250 Hookers leaving the US to work in China.
Bernard Spilman
love it so much more than you do America?
WS
have assumed 80 degrees Temp @militarymorgue.gov Democrat Terrorist Al Zarqawi Assumes Room Temp
"Bernard Spilman" <b...@man.com> wrote in message
news:xk_hg.50572$Lg....@tornado.southeast.rr.com...
> Why don't you move to China, asshole, since you
> love it so much more than you do America?
> WS
>
Why dont you post a photo copy here in this NG of all your furniture
purchses showing us that you only buy american made union furniture at union
labor prices.
Robert Sturgeon
<9083...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
(snips)
>Hooker officials say they simply can't compete with furniture that is
>being allowed into the US under China's Most Favored Nation trade
>status and the continuing Bush government policies of free trade with
>countries who force their population to work for free.
It's amazing that those unpaid Chinese workers are able to
buy food. They also are buying cars like crazy, and the
fuel to power them. How do they DO that, without getting
paid anything?
>This pattern of shifting manufacture from US to Chinese companies is
>what is known as the "Walmart effect", from the retailer who invented
>it. Walmart has driven down prices by forcing the production of most
>US goods overseas, but, ironically, has driven down wages further than
>prices by eliminating the jobs of those US workers who produce such
>goods.
Wal*Mart hasn't "forced" production of anything to any
place.
A fellow smarter than me has done the calculations and
showed that Wal*Mart results in a several hundred billion
Dollar per year improvement in the well being of Americans,
and foremost among those whose lives are being improved are
the poor.
--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
Morton Davis
"Robert Sturgeon" <rst...@inreach.com> wrote in message
news:q80j82pj7fjibekqj...@4ax.com...
like Black & Decker, DeWalt, Lennox, Lefton, Fitz & Floyd, Rival, Betty
Crocker, Sears........
Roedy Green
> A major Roanoke employer, Hooker Furniture, has
>decided to shut down its Roanoke, Virginia furniture plant as part of
>a continuing long term policy of sending the jobs of white working
>class people to China.
This will make the Republican owner of Hooker Furniture much richer,
admittedly. This will be counted as a plus for the economy.
However, it will cause major financial hardship for 275 families. When
large numbers are laid of simultaneously, it is hard for them to get
jobs. They may have to move, and lose money on their homes. They will
spread out into America, 275 more people competing for scare jobs,
pushing another 275 out of the jobs they would have normally got.
In a vicious chain, the lowest employables are forced to welfare or
homelessness.
Republicans ENCOURAGE outsourcing because it makes business more
profitable.
“Outsourcing is just a new way of doing international trade. More
things are tradable than were tradable in the past. And that’s a good
thing.”
~ N. Gregory Mankiw, chairman of Bush’s Council of Economic Advisors.
Explaining why George’s record for exporting American jobs to India
was a good thing.
Bush signed his report.
http://mindprod.com/politics/bushismsbudget.html
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green, http://mindprod.com
"It is not necessary to change. Survival is not mandatory."
~ W. Edwards Deming
Gunner
<DWil...@SwiftRiver.org> wrote:
>On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:06:11 +0000, Roedy Green wrote:
>
>> On 8 Jun 2006 11:20:51 -0700, "jonse" <9083...@sneakemail.com>
>> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>>
>>> A major Roanoke employer, Hooker Furniture, has
>>>decided to shut down its Roanoke, Virginia furniture plant as part of
>>>a continuing long term policy of sending the jobs of white working
>>>class people to China.
>>
>> This will make the Republican owner of Hooker Furniture much richer,
>> admittedly. This will be counted as a plus for the economy.
>>
>
>
>
>I find this humorous in a way -- gallows humor I guess.
>
>I was in Wal-mart the other day. This particular store has a bunch of
>robot self-serve check-out machines. This company, along with all the
>rest is into cutting cost -- be it employee cost or merchandise cost.
>When they finally cut the last penny off the last product, who will have
>any money to buy their products?
>
>It's like dealing with the law -- people pursue private self-interest
>actions and allow the background organizations (government,
>corporations)to turn into bloody monsters.
>
>Eventually, this 'spiral in' will abruptly stop when we reach ground level.
>
>
I refuse to use any Self Checkout line in any store. If I cant deal
with a human being during my transaction,,the store doesnt get my
business.
Gunner
>
>
Morton Davis
"Gunner" <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:kvqk82l1dth6t2ni6...@4ax.com...
package in the stores. You roll your cart up to the checkout and the entire
contents are read, and receipt printed out. Then you either roll your cart
to your car and unload, or bag it there yourself. The stuff's already
managed by machine. Every purchase of every product is tabulated. When the
"magic numbers" are reached, the order autoimatically goes out to stock
clerks to restock and to the distribution center to ship more. The cartons
are sorted by machine, put on pallets by machine, routed by machine. But
they are still loaded onto trucks by men using forklift and hand carts. Just
about everything you buy is mostly handled by machines guided by computer
programs.
When they get all the bugs out, some things you'll see at home on your
computer or TV, pay for, and they'll be sent to you via 3-D fax.
Jerry Okamura
these people would be out of a job in any event.
"jonse" <9083...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:1149790851....@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Seper...@aol.com
Jerry Okamura wrote:
> You either compete or you go out of business. If you go out of business,
> these people would be out of a job in any event.
That's rather simplistic.
An immproved product, a superior product or finding new ways to appeal
to your market are also methods of competition, none of which involve
moving your company to China.
GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia
> You either compete or you go out of business.
Either turn over your citizens to slave labor to compete or go out of business.
No thanks.
--
There are only two kinds of Republicans: Millionaires and fools.
Robert Sturgeon
>
>Jerry Okamura wrote:
>> You either compete or you go out of business. If you go out of business,
>> these people would be out of a job in any event.
>
>That's rather simplistic.
>
>An immproved product, a superior product or finding new ways to appeal
>to your market are also methods of competition, none of which involve
>moving your company to China.
The operative phrase is "your company." I have every right
to move my company to China, if that's where I can get my
products manufactured on the most competitive basis.
richar...@hotmail.com
Duncan Williams wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:06:11 +0000, Roedy Green wrote:
>
> > wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
> >
> >> A major Roanoke employer, Hooker Furniture, has
> >>decided to shut down its Roanoke, Virginia furniture plant as part of
> >>a continuing long term policy of sending the jobs of white working
> >>class people to China.
> >
> > This will make the Republican owner of Hooker Furniture much richer,
> > admittedly. This will be counted as a plus for the economy.
> >
>
>
>
>
> I was in Wal-mart the other day. This particular store has a bunch of
> robot self-serve check-out machines. This company, along with all the
> rest is into cutting cost -- be it employee cost or merchandise cost.
> When they finally cut the last penny off the last product, who will have
> any money to buy their products?
>
> It's like dealing with the law -- people pursue private self-interest
> actions and allow the background organizations (government,
> corporations)to turn into bloody monsters.
>
> Eventually, this 'spiral in' will abruptly stop when we reach ground level.
You mean like "The Brain Center at Whipple's"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brain_Center_at_Whipple's_(The_Twilight_Zone)
- Richard Hutnik
Sue
<rst...@inreach.com> wrote:
>On 10 Jun 2006 14:18:48 -0700, Seper...@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>>Jerry Okamura wrote:
>>> You either compete or you go out of business. If you go out of business,
>>> these people would be out of a job in any event.
>>
>>That's rather simplistic.
>>
>>An immproved product, a superior product or finding new ways to appeal
>>to your market are also methods of competition, none of which involve
>>moving your company to China.
>
>The operative phrase is "your company." I have every right
>to move my company to China, if that's where I can get my
>products manufactured on the most competitive basis.
Do you suppose there's some point to this fellow misspelling
"separatist"?
Sue
Seperatist9
Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> On 10 Jun 2006 14:18:48 -0700, Seper...@aol.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Jerry Okamura wrote:
> >> You either compete or you go out of business. If you go out of business,
> >> these people would be out of a job in any event.
> >
> >That's rather simplistic.
> >
> >An immproved product, a superior product or finding new ways to appeal
> >to your market are also methods of competition, none of which involve
> >moving your company to China.
>
> The operative phrase is "your company." I have every right
> to move my company to China, if that's where I can get my
> products manufactured on the most competitive basis.
See, I feel I owe something to my country, America, and I feel I should
keep my business here, work to keep my business here, and repay those
who helped to educate and protect me, giving me a pretty good life.
God Bless America, you greedy selfish piece of crap!
Jeffrey Turner
> On 10 Jun 2006 14:18:48 -0700, Seper...@aol.com wrote:
>>Jerry Okamura wrote:
>>
>>>You either compete or you go out of business. If you go out of business,
>>>these people would be out of a job in any event.
>>
>>That's rather simplistic.
>>
>>An immproved product, a superior product or finding new ways to appeal
>>to your market are also methods of competition, none of which involve
>>moving your company to China.
>
>
> The operative phrase is "your company." I have every right
> to move my company to China, if that's where I can get my
> products manufactured on the most competitive basis.
Why do Republicans hate America?
--Jeff
--
The shepherd always tries to persuade
the sheep that their interests and
his own are the same. --Stendhal
myal
maybe it should be se-parrot-ist ?
maxi...@netzoola.com
why do republicans hate america?
myal
dunno , why ?
Too_Many_Tools
company.
And I have every right to avoid buying any product (including yours)
that is produced at the expense of my fellow countrymen.
Every notice how companies avoid at all costs of letting the consumer
know where production occurs? Might they be trying to prevent consumers
from making an informed judgement when purchasing?
By the way, what is your product? If you do your production in China, I
would prefer not to buy it even if it is cheaper...that lower cost is
occuring at the public's expense. Being competitive doesn't help when
no one will buy your product.
TMT
Gunner
wrote:
>> >
>> I refuse to use any Self Checkout line in any store. If I cant deal
>> with a human being during my transaction,,the store doesnt get my
>> business.
>>
>>
>Then you don't buy gasoline, eh?
I buy gas every day..usually about $30 per day. But I dont "pay at the
pump".
Ever.
The cashier gets my money, or I go elsewhere.
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
Gunner
>
>Jerry Okamura wrote:
>> You either compete or you go out of business. If you go out of business,
>> these people would be out of a job in any event.
>
>That's rather simplistic.
>
>An immproved product, a superior product or finding new ways to appeal
>to your market are also methods of competition, none of which involve
>moving your company to China.
>
Chuckle.."ew And Improved". No one pays any attention to that slogan any
longer. Jerry was quite right.
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Gunner
wrote:
And if you are really lucky..the trustees give you a few dollars back
after the auction.
Gunner, who just lost $3000 to a company that went backrupt after the
Chinese started making a clone of their product line..for 1/3 the price.
>>
>> --
>> Robert Sturgeon
>> Summum ius summa inuria.
>> http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Morton Davis
> On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:34:22 GMT, "Morton Davis" <anti...@go.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> >
> >> I refuse to use any Self Checkout line in any store. If I cant deal
> >> with a human being during my transaction,,the store doesnt get my
> >> business.
> >>
> >>
> >Then you don't buy gasoline, eh?
>
> I buy gas every day..usually about $30 per day. But I dont "pay at the
> pump".
>
> Ever.
>
> The cashier gets my money, or I go elsewhere.
>
>
double or triple hard because he/she has to handle grocery sales, deli
sales, lottery sales, money orders - who is held responsible for every penny
that crosses the counter - real;ly appreciates that you add one more
transaction to his/her day.
By accepting self serve, you accept that it was okay to eliminate the person
who used to pump the gas for you. Frankly, I prefer to pay at the pump and
do all my financial stuff online or at the ATM. I pay at the pump and never
have to wait for the clerk to hunt down a fresh can of snuff or print out
100 lottery tickets, or handle a bunch of money orders. That's my timer they
waste.
Sue
<too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Well Robert you do have every right to do what you wish with your
>company.
>
>And I have every right to avoid buying any product (including yours)
>that is produced at the expense of my fellow countrymen.
Yes, you do.
>
>Every notice how companies avoid at all costs of letting the consumer
>know where production occurs?
I can usually find the country of origin on things I buy. However, I
did buy a toaster the other day and couldn't find where it was made
except that the instruction booklet said that it was printed in China
so I assume that's where the toaster was made. I suspect I'd have had
a difficult time finding a toaster made in the US but could be wrong.
> Might they be trying to prevent consumers
>from making an informed judgement when purchasing?
>
>By the way, what is your product?
He's a farmer and his product is cotton.
> If you do your production in China, I
>would prefer not to buy it even if it is cheaper...that lower cost is
>occuring at the public's expense. Being competitive doesn't help when
>no one will buy your product.
It's possible that his "product" is exported *to* China. They import
lots of cotton. Lucky for you because boycotting his "product" would
be pretty difficult for you. It would rather limit your shopping to
linen, wool, synthetics. I don't know if they even make towels in
anything other than cotton.
Sue
Robert Sturgeon
wrote:
I have my theories, but as they are slightly less than
completely complimentary, I prefer to keep them to myself.
Robert Sturgeon
<Border...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Robert Sturgeon wrote:
>> On 10 Jun 2006 14:18:48 -0700, Seper...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Jerry Okamura wrote:
>> >> You either compete or you go out of business. If you go out of business,
>> >> these people would be out of a job in any event.
>> >
>> >That's rather simplistic.
>> >
>> >An immproved product, a superior product or finding new ways to appeal
>> >to your market are also methods of competition, none of which involve
>> >moving your company to China.
>>
>> The operative phrase is "your company." I have every right
>> to move my company to China, if that's where I can get my
>> products manufactured on the most competitive basis.
>
>See, I feel I owe something to my country, America, and I feel I should
>keep my business here, work to keep my business here, and repay those
>who helped to educate and protect me, giving me a pretty good life.
My loyalty to the U.S. presupposes that the U.S. is also
loyal to me. If I was in the furniture making business, and
if the various governments (federal, state, and local) of
the country were making it difficult for me to remain
profitable while operating in the United States, I wouldn't
have any particular reason to remain here, working at a
loss.
>God Bless America, you greedy selfish piece of crap!
I'd be willing to bet that when it comes to your own money,
your own property, and your own life, you are just as greedy
and selfish as the rest of us. I've noticed that those who
call for self-sacrifice in various forms from others are
never first in line to sell anything of their own at
anything less than market prices, i.e., all the "liberals"
want top dollar when they sell a house, or bill for legal
services, or act in a movie, or play pro basketball, or
whatever else they may do in exchange for money. It's only
OTHER PEOPLE they think should take less than they can get
in the marketplace.
IMHonestO, trying to get other people to make sacrifices so
you can satisfy your social impulses is the ultimate form of
greed.
Robert Sturgeon
<jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
>Robert Sturgeon wrote:
>> On 10 Jun 2006 14:18:48 -0700, Seper...@aol.com wrote:
>>>Jerry Okamura wrote:
>>>
>>>>You either compete or you go out of business. If you go out of business,
>>>>these people would be out of a job in any event.
>>>
>>>That's rather simplistic.
>>>
>>>An immproved product, a superior product or finding new ways to appeal
>>>to your market are also methods of competition, none of which involve
>>>moving your company to China.
>>
>>
>> The operative phrase is "your company." I have every right
>> to move my company to China, if that's where I can get my
>> products manufactured on the most competitive basis.
>
>Why do Republicans hate America?
They are much more likely to have something like "God Bless
America" stickers on their bumpers. Democrats' bumpers are
usually reserved for something like "Save the Whales."
Robert Sturgeon
<too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Well Robert you do have every right to do what you wish with your
>company.
>
>And I have every right to avoid buying any product (including yours)
>that is produced at the expense of my fellow countrymen.
Yes you do.
>Every notice how companies avoid at all costs of letting the consumer
>know where production occurs? Might they be trying to prevent consumers
>from making an informed judgement when purchasing?
No, I haven't noticed that. I often see "Made in China"
labels on products.
>By the way, what is your product? If you do your production in China, I
>would prefer not to buy it even if it is cheaper...that lower cost is
>occuring at the public's expense. Being competitive doesn't help when
>no one will buy your product.
I grow cotton and wheat. If you can tell which sheets, or
which loaves of bread, are made from my products, you'll
sure welcome to boycott them.
Morton Davis
"Sue" <seb...@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:kh9o82hhu2m04qu5p...@4ax.com...
> On 10 Jun 2006 21:26:01 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
> <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Well Robert you do have every right to do what you wish with your
> >company.
> >
> >And I have every right to avoid buying any product (including yours)
> >that is produced at the expense of my fellow countrymen.
>
> Yes, you do.
>
> >
> >Every notice how companies avoid at all costs of letting the consumer
> >know where production occurs?
>
> I can usually find the country of origin on things I buy. However, I
> did buy a toaster the other day and couldn't find where it was made
> except that the instruction booklet said that it was printed in China
> so I assume that's where the toaster was made. I suspect I'd have had
> a difficult time finding a toaster made in the US but could be wrong.
>
> > Might they be trying to prevent consumers
> >from making an informed judgement when purchasing?
> >
> >By the way, what is your product?
>
> He's a farmer and his product is cotton.
>
> > If you do your production in China, I
> >would prefer not to buy it even if it is cheaper...that lower cost is
> >occuring at the public's expense. Being competitive doesn't help when
> >no one will buy your product.
>
> It's possible that his "product" is exported *to* China. They import
> lots of cotton. Lucky for you because boycotting his "product" would
> be pretty difficult for you. It would rather limit your shopping to
> linen, wool, synthetics. I don't know if they even make towels in
> anything other than cotton.
>
Synthetics are used to make some towels.
Sue
wrote:
>
>"Sue" <seb...@thegrid.net> wrote in message
>news:kh9o82hhu2m04qu5p...@4ax.com...
>> On 10 Jun 2006 21:26:01 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
>> <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Well Robert you do have every right to do what you wish with your
>> >company.
>> >
>> >And I have every right to avoid buying any product (including yours)
>> >that is produced at the expense of my fellow countrymen.
>>
>> Yes, you do.
>>
>> >
>> >Every notice how companies avoid at all costs of letting the consumer
>> >know where production occurs?
>>
>> I can usually find the country of origin on things I buy. However, I
>> did buy a toaster the other day and couldn't find where it was made
>> except that the instruction booklet said that it was printed in China
>> so I assume that's where the toaster was made. I suspect I'd have had
>> a difficult time finding a toaster made in the US but could be wrong.
>>
>Wal-Mart carries them.
I bought the one I have at Wal*Mart. I wasn't paying any attention to
where any of them were made when I was making my selection. The one
I got was a Black and Decker. I wanted an inexpensive toaster, 4
slice, no bells and whistles (I like simple stuff) and a brand I'm
familiar with. They had a toaster that was cheaper than the one I got
but I'd not heard of the company.
>
>
>> > Might they be trying to prevent consumers
>> >from making an informed judgement when purchasing?
>> >
>> >By the way, what is your product?
>>
>> He's a farmer and his product is cotton.
>>
>> > If you do your production in China, I
>> >would prefer not to buy it even if it is cheaper...that lower cost is
>> >occuring at the public's expense. Being competitive doesn't help when
>> >no one will buy your product.
>>
>> It's possible that his "product" is exported *to* China. They import
>> lots of cotton. Lucky for you because boycotting his "product" would
>> be pretty difficult for you. It would rather limit your shopping to
>> linen, wool, synthetics. I don't know if they even make towels in
>> anything other than cotton.
>>
>Synthetics are used to make some towels.
OK. I don't pay a lot of attention to that either. I just get them
at Penney's - 100% cotton, US made (according to the label that I just
read).
Sue
>
Gunner
wrote:
>
>"Gunner" <gun...@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
>news:vlpn82l7io6f2umrp...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 11:34:22 GMT, "Morton Davis" <anti...@go.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> >
>> >> I refuse to use any Self Checkout line in any store. If I cant deal
>> >> with a human being during my transaction,,the store doesnt get my
>> >> business.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Then you don't buy gasoline, eh?
>>
>> I buy gas every day..usually about $30 per day. But I dont "pay at the
>> pump".
>>
>> Ever.
>>
>> The cashier gets my money, or I go elsewhere.
>>
>>
>You pump the gas? Yeah, that's the ticket. The cashier, who has to work
>double or triple hard because he/she has to handle grocery sales, deli
>sales, lottery sales, money orders - who is held responsible for every penny
>that crosses the counter - real;ly appreciates that you add one more
>transaction to his/her day.
Assuming they speak english.
>
>By accepting self serve, you accept that it was okay to eliminate the person
>who used to pump the gas for you.
True enough. Think of it as my last ditch effort to prevent the complete
dehumanization of financial transactions in the mercantile world.
Jerry Okamura
<Seper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1149974328.4...@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jerry Okamura wrote:
>> You either compete or you go out of business. If you go out of business,
>> these people would be out of a job in any event.
>
> That's rather simplistic.
>
> An immproved product, a superior product or finding new ways to appeal
> to your market are also methods of competition, none of which involve
> moving your company to China.
>
ways to appeal to your market is competing. But you are assuming that they
could come up with a superior product or find new way to appeal to the
market.
Jerry Okamura
"Seperatist9" <Border...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1149987849.3...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
Jerry Okamura
"Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:128mssf...@corp.supernews.com...
> Robert Sturgeon wrote:
>> On 10 Jun 2006 14:18:48 -0700, Seper...@aol.com wrote:
>>>Jerry Okamura wrote:
>>>
>>>>You either compete or you go out of business. If you go out of
>>>>business,
>>>>these people would be out of a job in any event.
>>>
>>>That's rather simplistic.
>>>
>>>An immproved product, a superior product or finding new ways to appeal
>>>to your market are also methods of competition, none of which involve
>>>moving your company to China.
>>
>>
>> The operative phrase is "your company." I have every right
>> to move my company to China, if that's where I can get my
>> products manufactured on the most competitive basis.
>
> Why do Republicans hate America?
>
Jerry Okamura
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1149999960.9...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Well Robert you do have every right to do what you wish with your
> company.
>
> And I have every right to avoid buying any product (including yours)
> that is produced at the expense of my fellow countrymen.
>
> Every notice how companies avoid at all costs of letting the consumer
> know where production occurs? Might they be trying to prevent consumers
> from making an informed judgement when purchasing?
>
> By the way, what is your product? If you do your production in China, I
> would prefer not to buy it even if it is cheaper...that lower cost is
> occuring at the public's expense. Being competitive doesn't help when
> no one will buy your product.
>
a bunch of workers lose their jobs when the plant closes. Does that mean
they will never work? No it does not, it only means they will have to find
another job. And what about the people who do buy the product? Are they
better off paying more for the product, or less for the same product? And
who benefits the most when ayou can sell the product at a much lower cost?
The very people democrats and liberals say they are most concerned
about...the less fortunate in this country, who now can afford to buy that
product or buy more of that product because it is cheaper....
Jerry Okamura
"GW Chimpzilla's Eye-Rack Neocon Utopia" <g...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xVHig.25843$No1.11868@attbi_s71...
> Jerry Okamura wrote:
>
>> You either compete or you go out of business.
>
> business.
>
> No thanks.
>
>> If you go out of business,
>> these people would be out of a job in any event.
>>
lost your job, what would you do, crawl in a hole, cover yourself with a
blanket, say something like "the sky is falling, the sky is falling", or
would you get off your tail end, and try to find another job as quickly as
you can?
Jerry Okamura
> wrote:
>
>>> >
>>> I refuse to use any Self Checkout line in any store. If I cant deal
>>> with a human being during my transaction,,the store doesnt get my
>>> business.
>>>
>>>
>>Then you don't buy gasoline, eh?
>
> I buy gas every day..usually about $30 per day. But I dont "pay at the
> pump".
>
> Ever.
>
> The cashier gets my money, or I go elsewhere.
>
One is because they save on labor, thereby reducing their cost of operating,
which in turn means they can sell their products just a little bit cheaper.
Two because people do not like waiting in lines. And three, because by
using machines, they won't need what must be a pretty lousy job, standing
and working at a cash register all day....having to put up with those of us
who can be absolutely mean spirited from time to time....a machine does not
care if you get angry <g>
Gunner
You missed #4
It wont steal from you either.
Morton Davis
from a less expensive iten over the anti theft device. No cashier there to
catch you. But they do do random camera checks from above.
Seperatist9
Gunner wrote:
> On 10 Jun 2006 18:04:09 -0700, "Seperatist9" <Border...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> >> On 10 Jun 2006 14:18:48 -0700, Seper...@aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Jerry Okamura wrote:
> >> >> You either compete or you go out of business. If you go out of business,
> >> >> these people would be out of a job in any event.
> >> >
> >> >That's rather simplistic.
> >> >
> >> >An immproved product, a superior product or finding new ways to appeal
> >> >to your market are also methods of competition, none of which involve
> >> >moving your company to China.
> >>
> >> The operative phrase is "your company." I have every right
> >> to move my company to China, if that's where I can get my
> >> products manufactured on the most competitive basis.
> >
> >See, I feel I owe something to my country, America, and I feel I should
> >keep my business here, work to keep my business here, and repay those
> >who helped to educate and protect me, giving me a pretty good life.
> >
> >God Bless America, you greedy selfish piece of crap!
> >
>
> And if you are really lucky..the trustees give you a few dollars back
> after the auction.
>
> Gunner, who just lost $3000 to a company that went backrupt after the
> Chinese started making a clone of their product line..for 1/3 the price.
Well, I don't believe in the "freehand of business," I think a
government has to impose SOME tariffs and taxes, just to protect it's
self, the country, and it's workers.
Business has been given a free ride over the last couple of years, much
to the benefit of the Chinese.
And the Chinese goods I am forced to buy are garbage -- I'd prefer to
buy a better made, higher priced model.
Jerry Okamura
Jerry Okamura
This is one of those chicken and egg issues. If you interfere with the
market to protect one part of your economy, the other country will do the
same thing to protect one part of their economy. And that can result in a
downward spiral, where each country, retaliates against the other countries
actions to protect on part of their economy.
>
> Business has been given a free ride over the last couple of years, much
> to the benefit of the Chinese.
And to the benefit of those less fortunate in this country who are able to
afford to buy products that they might not otherwise be able to afford
perhaps?
Gunner
wrote:
As would I in most, but not all cases. Harbor Freight is a perfect
example of "compromise" tools in many cases. Im a machinist and machine
tool mechanic. I can purchase Mititoyo digital micrometers for $90
I can buy a digital mic from China for $19, often less on special
Both work well, both consitantly pass recalibration testing yearly.
The chicom one may only last 5 yrs under heavy use, and the Mititoyo may
last 10 or 15 under heavy use.
However...the average schmuck will only use either of them in light use.
Even if they were both used in daily machine shop usage, the Chicom one,
even if needing replacement every 5 yrs, is still cheaper in 15 yrs than
the Mititoyo.
A hammer is another example. A good Estwing finishing hammer is $30 A
Chicom hammer is $8. Which will Joe Sixpack buy for his home shop to
once a year hammer in a nail to hang a picture?
Estwin simply cannot compete using American materials and labor and turn
out a $8 hammer, unless they go offshore. Fact of life.
This is a very complex issue..and does not lend itself to simplified
answers.
Gunner
Morton Davis
Jeffrey Turner
> "Seperatist9" <Border...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Business has been given a free ride over the last couple of years, much
>>to the benefit of the Chinese.
>
> And to the benefit of those less fortunate in this country who are able to
> afford to buy products that they might not otherwise be able to afford
> perhaps?
It hardly compensates for the loss of wages.
--Jeff
--
The shepherd always tries to persuade
the sheep that their interests and
his own are the same. --Stendhal
Jeffrey Turner
That's nice. Doesn't answer my question though. Besides,
you can't just sit around waiting for God to do anything.
God helps those that help themselves, you know. The
Administration doesn't seem to believe in anything but
helping themselves - to whatever they can get away with.
And it's the Republican administration that's trampling the
Constitution and the Republican Congress that won't lift a
finger to stop it.
pyotr filipivich
on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:59:35 GMT in misc.survivalism :
>
>>> The cashier gets my money, or I go elsewhere.
>>>
>>The reason retail outlets are moving toward these machines are three fold.
>>One is because they save on labor, thereby reducing their cost of operating,
>>which in turn means they can sell their products just a little bit cheaper.
>>Two because people do not like waiting in lines. And three, because by
>>using machines, they won't need what must be a pretty lousy job, standing
>>and working at a cash register all day....having to put up with those of us
>>who can be absolutely mean spirited from time to time....a machine does not
>>care if you get angry <g>
>>
>You missed #4
>
>It wont steal from you either.
OTOH, one reason Oregon doesn't allow self-service gas pumping:
unemployment. Someone has to be there to man the pumps.
Think of it as "special interest" welfare.
tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968.
Morton Davis
"pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:nhhp82peplebm1301...@4ax.com...
> Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Gunner <gun...@lightspeed.net>
wrote
> on Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:59:35 GMT in misc.survivalism :
> >
> >>> The cashier gets my money, or I go elsewhere.
> >>>
> >>The reason retail outlets are moving toward these machines are three
fold.
> >>One is because they save on labor, thereby reducing their cost of
operating,
> >>which in turn means they can sell their products just a little bit
cheaper.
> >>Two because people do not like waiting in lines. And three, because by
> >>using machines, they won't need what must be a pretty lousy job,
standing
> >>and working at a cash register all day....having to put up with those of
us
> >>who can be absolutely mean spirited from time to time....a machine does
not
> >>care if you get angry <g>
> >>
> >You missed #4
> >
> >It wont steal from you either.
>
> OTOH, one reason Oregon doesn't allow self-service gas pumping:
> unemployment. Someone has to be there to man the pumps.
> Think of it as "special interest" welfare.
>
with "hot pants service". He hired beautiful girls to pump the gas in very
short shorts and halter tops.
Robert Sturgeon
<jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
>Robert Sturgeon wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 21:36:15 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
>> <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>>Robert Sturgeon wrote:
>>>>On 10 Jun 2006 14:18:48 -0700, Seper...@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>Jerry Okamura wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>You either compete or you go out of business. If you go out of business,
>>>>>>these people would be out of a job in any event.
>>>>>
>>>>>That's rather simplistic.
>>>>>
>>>>>An immproved product, a superior product or finding new ways to appeal
>>>>>to your market are also methods of competition, none of which involve
>>>>>moving your company to China.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The operative phrase is "your company." I have every right
>>>>to move my company to China, if that's where I can get my
>>>>products manufactured on the most competitive basis.
>>>
>>>Why do Republicans hate America?
>>
>> They are much more likely to have something like "God Bless
>> America" stickers on their bumpers. Democrats' bumpers are
>> usually reserved for something like "Save the Whales."
>
>That's nice. Doesn't answer my question though.
OK, your question is ridiculous. I see no indication
whatsoever that the Republicans hate America.
> Besides,
>you can't just sit around waiting for God to do anything.
>God helps those that help themselves, you know. The
>Administration doesn't seem to believe in anything but
>helping themselves - to whatever they can get away with.
I thought you were discussing the Bush II Administration,
but the above accurately describes the Clinton
Administration.
>And it's the Republican administration that's trampling the
>Constitution and the Republican Congress that won't lift a
>finger to stop it.
Every administration since at least 1933 has trampled the
Constitution, and no Congress has stopped them.
Morton Davis
"Robert Sturgeon" <rst...@inreach.com> wrote in message
news:fnqq821cvlulmr28o...@4ax.com...
parties. They voted over 60% for Bush over Kerry. So the question: "Why do
the Republicans hate America?" is just plain silly.
stonej
A fellow smarter than me has done the calculations and
> showed that Wal*Mart results in a several hundred billion
> Dollar per year improvement in the well being of Americans,
> and foremost among those whose lives are being improved are
> the poor.
And the company is rewarded with an average 50% turnover rate per year.
Why are those ungrateful poor bastards turning their backs on such a
generous
company. :)
Too_Many_Tools
look...on purpose.
Having the ability to buy "cheap crap" (and most of it is just that)
does not compensate for loss of income, the cost to find new employment
and the subsequent lower wages and benefits that are occurring in the
United States.
It does allow companies to skim ever larger profits off the sheeple
while defraying their costs to the public...aka Walmart health
insurance.
TMT
Jeffrey Turner
Only a Republican would say that having your job outsourced is
good for you. And then not do anything to help people retrain.
>> Besides,
>>you can't just sit around waiting for God to do anything.
>>God helps those that help themselves, you know. The
>>Administration doesn't seem to believe in anything but
>>helping themselves - to whatever they can get away with.
>
> I thought you were discussing the Bush II Administration,
> but the above accurately describes the Clinton
> Administration.
Clinton wasn't great but at least he didn't loot trillions
from the national treasury.
>>And it's the Republican administration that's trampling the
>>Constitution and the Republican Congress that won't lift a
>>finger to stop it.
>
> Every administration since at least 1933 has trampled the
> Constitution, and no Congress has stopped them.
Oh, please. The secrecy, the midnight deportations, the
torture, the signing statements, the sneak and peek searches,
the illegal wiretaps, ad nauseum. Even Nixon's counsel, John
Dean, says this group is worse than Nixon's. And Congress
blocked Roosevelt's court packing venture, so I'd say you're
all wet.
Jerry Okamura
> Jerry Okamura wrote:
>> "Seperatist9" <Border...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Business has been given a free ride over the last couple of years, much
>>>to the benefit of the Chinese.
>>
>> And to the benefit of those less fortunate in this country who are able
>> to afford to buy products that they might not otherwise be able to afford
>> perhaps?
>
> It hardly compensates for the loss of wages.
A couple of thousand people, vs. a couple of hundreds of thousands of people
who buy the products? The people who lost their jobs, can always find
another job, and perhaps even a better paying job. The people who buy the
products, can only "hope" to be able to buy the product at a lower cost, not
a higher cost. Higher labor cost translates to higher cost of goods sold.
Jerry Okamura
> Jeff raises the point that the pro business crowd always seems to over
> look...on purpose.
>
> Having the ability to buy "cheap crap" (and most of it is just that)
> does not compensate for loss of income, the cost to find new employment
> and the subsequent lower wages and benefits that are occurring in the
> United States.
There is no lost of income. If you lost your job tomorrow, for whatever
reason, you can find another job. The only "income" you may have lost, is
that income you did not receive from the time you lost your job in the last
place you worked, to the time you find another job, or if the next job pays
less than the previous job, which has more to do with the skills you have,
than anything else.
>
> It does allow companies to skim ever larger profits off the sheeple
> while defraying their costs to the public...aka Walmart health
> insurance.
It ain't a free ride. If Walmart or any other company provides any benefit
to their employees, someone is going to pay for that cost. In the case of
Walmart, it will be the customers who will pay for the cost, because Walmart
will simply tack on the cost of that benefit to every product they sell.
Walmart does not really pay for the benefit, their custormers pay for the
benefit.
Str...@flashlight.net
And higher labor costs translates into more money made by individuals
to put back into the economy.
No economic system is stable unless it operates with rules and
within controllable borders. The second important reason for creating
the federal government was to better manage
foreign trade and relations. It is supposed to finance itself from
import duties and tariffs just as it did for 156 years. Now this
same government is being used against Americans.
LIke the opening of US borders to illegal aliens, special interests
have paid politicians to cause an imbalance of trade knowing that US
citizens and theri descendents will pay the difference.
The typical American does not benefit from strengthening China.
Setting aside the prospect of a future war with China, the lower cost
of goods that seem advantageous in the short run has increased
inflation and is adversely effecting the expectations of future
monetary security.
You people seem eager to forget that it was US technology and
knowledge, given to or secreted to, China, that catapulted China onto
the national scene. This was US technology created by and paid for by
US citizens. It was your wealth that has made China what it is.
This massive transfer of important technology and it's financing, and
the outsourcing of jobs, was done to benefit key corporations and to
weaken the structure and ethos of the middle class.
In essence you have financed certain failure.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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Jerry Okamura
<Str...@flashlight.net> wrote in message
news:q8ur829ve2tbqnd6n...@4ax.com...
How do you operate withing controllable borders? Especially in todays age?
You can only successfully "manage" foreign trade when all parties involved
are willing to be "managed". It cannot be "managed" if an country is not
willing to be "managed".
>
> LIke the opening of US borders to illegal aliens,
The illegal aliens are going to come regardless of what you do. You cannot
stop people from doing what they want to do. No country has ever been able
to stop people from doing what they want to do. You can make it a whole lot
harder for people to do what they want to do, and you can achieve some
success, but you cannot stop all the people.
special interests
> have paid politicians to cause an imbalance of trade knowing that US
> citizens and theri descendents will pay the difference.
The balance of trade is a problem, only when one side does not play by the
rules. The US does a better job of trying to play by the rules, then anyone
else. The trade imbalance with China is an example of one country not
playing by the rules. They have articficially kept their currency high,
which is the reason for the trade imbalance.
>
> The typical American does not benefit from strengthening China.
> Setting aside the prospect of a future war with China, the lower cost
> of goods that seem advantageous in the short run has increased
> inflation and is adversely effecting the expectations of future
> monetary security.
Countries who have a vested interest in the success of other countries, in
order to be successful themselves are not the ones who will wage war.
Countries which have vested interest in the success of other countries, do
not have an incentive not to wage war. The more that vested interest is,
the less inclined the country is willing to go to war, simply because it
would be cutting of ones foot. It does not help them, it hurts them.
>
> You people seem eager to forget that it was US technology and
> knowledge, given to or secreted to, China, that catapulted China onto
> the national scene. This was US technology created by and paid for by
> US citizens. It was your wealth that has made China what it is.
Sure it did.
>
> This massive transfer of important technology and it's financing, and
> the outsourcing of jobs, was done to benefit key corporations and to
> weaken the structure and ethos of the middle class.
Outsources, helps everyone. It helps those countries who have the cheap
labor to have their labor employed, it helps the consumers of this country
buy products which are less expensive, it particularly helps the least
fortunate in this country who could use all the breaks it can get, in where
and how their money is spent, it means that you can concentrate your efforts
to fill jobs that are better paying, it helps the local companies stay in
business, because you can bet your bottom dollar, there are foriegn
companies, who will make use of the inexpensive labor to under cut the
ability to US companies to compete.
Too_Many_Tools
Jerry Okamura wrote:
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1150127439.0...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > Jeff raises the point that the pro business crowd always seems to over
> > look...on purpose.
> >
> > Having the ability to buy "cheap crap" (and most of it is just that)
> > does not compensate for loss of income, the cost to find new employment
> > and the subsequent lower wages and benefits that are occurring in the
> > United States.
>
> There is no lost of income. If you lost your job tomorrow, for whatever
> reason, you can find another job. The only "income" you may have lost, is
> that income you did not receive from the time you lost your job in the last
> place you worked, to the time you find another job, or if the next job pays
> less than the previous job, which has more to do with the skills you have,
> than anything else.
Wrong...it is very obvious that you do not live in the real world. I
personally know of dozens of highly skilled people in different parts
of the country who have had their jobs outsourced. To the person, they
have not "found a job" in any short amount of time....try a year or
more for everyone of them. The ones who have found jobs have had to
accept significantly lower wages and fewer benefits. These people have
the same skills that American society considers to be highly desirable
from an income stand point.
The Bush economy, that of what it is, sucks for the middle class.
Anyone who doesn't see that makes me seriously question their motives.
TMT
> >
> > It does allow companies to skim ever larger profits off the sheeple
> > while defraying their costs to the public...aka Walmart health
> > insurance.
>
> It ain't a free ride. If Walmart or any other company provides any benefit
> to their employees, someone is going to pay for that cost. In the case of
> Walmart, it will be the customers who will pay for the cost, because Walmart
> will simply tack on the cost of that benefit to every product they sell.
> Walmart does not really pay for the benefit, their custormers pay for the
> benefit.
So you are saying that by Walmart not paying their people enough for
medical benefits it benefits the customer....who then pays higher taxes
to support social programs that provide the medical care? If you really
believe this is better, I invite you to sit in an emergency room for
hours and hours because of the volume of poor people who use it for
medical care because they can't afford insurance.
TMT
Greg Preston
"jonse" <9083...@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:1149790851....@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Roanoke Company Sends Jobs To China 275 Left Unemployed By Hooker
> Furniture
>
Get used to it, the yanks are simply reaping the rewards of the free market
economy they enjoyed pushing on other nations for years, the yanks were
happy enough when it was THEIR mass production systems wiping out other
nations industrial bases, now the yanks are getting a taste of their own
medicine, you reaps what you sow.
Jerry Okamura
the government drastically reduced spending on defense related work. A
whole lot of us lost our jobs during that period of time. I was among those
who were unemployed. Try seeing how easy it is to find a job, when there
are more workers looking for work, then they are employers hiring workers.
The examples you gave are all someone else's story, not yours. And how hard
did they "try" to find another job? What limitations did they put on
themselves to make it harder to find that job? You can lose your job of a
variety of reason, outsourcing is only one reason. You can get laid off,
when the compnay you are working for, declares bankruptcy. You can get laid
off when your company makes a big mistake, like when IBM stayed with
building mainframe computers, when the trend was toward smaller computers.
You can get laid off, when the government reduces spending in an area that
you are working in. You can have a very hard time finding a job, if your
specialty in too narrow, where not a whole lot of companies need your
particular talent. The primary reason a person canot find a job, is because
they do not really spend the time and effort, and make the necessary
sacrifices to find that job that they say they need.
> The Bush economy, that of what it is, sucks for the middle class.
Why?
>
> Anyone who doesn't see that makes me seriously question their motives.
>
And visa versa? One has to seriously question your motives when you make
statements like you are making?
Jerry Okamura
"Greg Preston" <surv...@virus.co.uk> wrote in message
news:reidnYqUoIU...@bt.com...
You cannot wipe out another nations industrial bases without that nation
doing some really dumb things.
Too_Many_Tools
Gary is right...the United States had little competition after WWII.
Times have changed...and your quality of life has and will continue to
decline because of it.
TMT.
Too_Many_Tools
Over the years, I have experienced it and I have seen dozens and dozens
of people I know also experience it.
Reality is bad things do happen to good people.
>From the sound of it, you have led a charmed life working in an
industry that is well known for overcompensating its employees with
cash and benefits. I invite you to join the real world and see how easy
it is to switch jobs without a loss of compensation and benefits.
TMT
Jeffrey Turner
> "Greg Preston" <surv...@virus.co.uk> wrote:
>>"jonse" <9083...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Roanoke Company Sends Jobs To China 275 Left Unemployed By Hooker
>>>Furniture
>>
>>Get used to it, the yanks are simply reaping the rewards of the free
>>market economy they enjoyed pushing on other nations for years, the yanks
>>were happy enough when it was THEIR mass production systems wiping out
>>other nations industrial bases, now the yanks are getting a taste of their
>>own medicine, you reaps what you sow.
>
> You cannot wipe out another nations industrial bases without that nation
> doing some really dumb things.
God only knows the Americans have done dumb things. Like
electing Reagan to two terms, and now Bush.
Gary Kleppe
>Jerry Okamura wrote:
>> "Greg Preston" <surv...@virus.co.uk> wrote:
>>>"jonse" <9083...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Roanoke Company Sends Jobs To China 275 Left Unemployed By Hooker
>>>>Furniture
>>>
>>>Get used to it, the yanks are simply reaping the rewards of the free
>>>market economy they enjoyed pushing on other nations for years, the yanks
>>>were happy enough when it was THEIR mass production systems wiping out
>>>other nations industrial bases, now the yanks are getting a taste of their
>>>own medicine, you reaps what you sow.
>>
>> You cannot wipe out another nations industrial bases without that nation
>> doing some really dumb things.
>
>God only knows the Americans have done dumb things. Like
>electing Reagan to two terms, and now Bush.
Hey, we're innocent of that last one -- assuming you mean Americans in general,
and not specific groups like the Supreme Court and Diebold.
Gary Kleppe
http://www.garykleppe.org/politics.html
http://www.illinoisprogressives.org/pdi/
So-called president G. W. Bush: POT
WTC attackers, whoever they are or were: KETTLE
Murdered civilians in New York, Afghanistan,
and, Iraq: BLACK
Jeffrey Turner
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>The Bush economy, that of what it is, sucks for the middle class.
>
> Why?
Because it follows in Reaganite policies that were designed to
transfer vast amounts of wealth from the middle to the upper
classes. That's why the rich get huge tax cuts. Try looking at
the graphs at the bottom of page 4 of this document to see
exactly how skewed towards the very wealthy these policies are.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2000pubs/p60-204.pdf
It's known as class warfare.
Jeffrey Turner
> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>Jerry Okamura wrote:
>>>"Seperatist9" <Border...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Business has been given a free ride over the last couple of years, much
>>>>to the benefit of the Chinese.
>>>
>>>And to the benefit of those less fortunate in this country who are able
>>>to afford to buy products that they might not otherwise be able to afford
>>>perhaps?
>>
>>It hardly compensates for the loss of wages.
>
> A couple of thousand people, vs. a couple of hundreds of thousands of people
> who buy the products? The people who lost their jobs, can always find
> another job, and perhaps even a better paying job. The people who buy the
> products, can only "hope" to be able to buy the product at a lower cost, not
> a higher cost. Higher labor cost translates to higher cost of goods sold.
Oh, the old "they can always find another job" lie. At higher
wages, even. You must be a trust funder. Every job lost
decreases demand, meaning fewer new jobs will be created. I
guess if you can speak Chinese you might be able to find work -
over there.
Too_Many_Tools
you right on this one.
Ever notice that the Government STOPS tracking once the unemployed
person's unemployment payments end.
Now why would they do that? Wouldn't you think that they would want to
know how long it took to find the next job....and to know if the new
job paid equal or more in compensation.
They have no data because they intentionally do not measure it.....nor
want to know.
Knowing the truth would not be in the interest of those who would be
responsible for having to fix the problem.
I have also found it very interesting to note the wringing of hands and
gnashing of teeth when unemployment walks the streets of Wall
Street....it would seem that labor cuts are only good for someone else
other than the company you work for.
TMT
Gunner
Im 52. Ive worked for companies that were outsourced, went bankrupt,
or simply closed their doors when the owners retired.
Ive been unemployed for at most.....3 months since I started working
at age 15.
Ive also had 7 different careers.
Those who will not change or adapt..die.
Gunner
"The importance of morality is that people behave themselves even if
nobody's watching. There are not enough cops and laws to replace
personal morality as a means to produce a civilized society. Indeed,
the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of
defense for a civilized society. Unfortunately, too many of us see
police, laws and the criminal justice system as society's first line
of defense." --Walter Williams
Gunner
<jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
>Jerry Okamura wrote:
>> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>>Jerry Okamura wrote:
>>>>"Seperatist9" <Border...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Business has been given a free ride over the last couple of years, much
>>>>>to the benefit of the Chinese.
>>>>
>>>>And to the benefit of those less fortunate in this country who are able
>>>>to afford to buy products that they might not otherwise be able to afford
>>>>perhaps?
>>>
>>>It hardly compensates for the loss of wages.
>>
>> A couple of thousand people, vs. a couple of hundreds of thousands of people
>> who buy the products? The people who lost their jobs, can always find
>> another job, and perhaps even a better paying job. The people who buy the
>> products, can only "hope" to be able to buy the product at a lower cost, not
>> a higher cost. Higher labor cost translates to higher cost of goods sold.
>
>Oh, the old "they can always find another job" lie. At higher
>wages, even. You must be a trust funder. Every job lost
>decreases demand, meaning fewer new jobs will be created. I
>guess if you can speak Chinese you might be able to find work -
>over there.
>
>--Jeff
While outsourcing is a huge issue, American companies that dont..have
learned to work smarter with fewer people.
I work in the manufacturing industry as a self employed service tech
and am in dozens of machine shops and factories every week.
A company that makes say..Widgets..used to have 200 people turning out
1000 Widgets a week.
They automated, machines now work faster and smarter. That same
company now turns out 5000 Widgets a week with 20 people.
Where did those surplus 180 people go? Well..we dont find em laying
dead on the streets.
A goodly number of them found other employment, or started their own
business's. Like I did.
http://currents.ucsc.edu/05-06/10-10/business.asp
Gunner
<too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Ever notice that the Government STOPS tracking once the unemployed
>person's unemployment payments end.
>
>Now why would they do that? Wouldn't you think that they would want to
>know how long it took to find the next job....and to know if the new
>job paid equal or more in compensation.
For sure. The Gubment doesnt want to have to explain where those huge
piles of starved to death corpses came from that windrow our streets
and sidewalks.
When Fred the buggy whip maker starves to death in his home..HUD comes
in, removes Fred and his load of maggots, repaints and recarpets and
then the house goes out on the market and the Gubment makes a huge
profit.
But dont tell anyone.
Jerry Okamura
If they cannot find another job, what are all these people who lost their
job doing?
Jerry Okamura
> "Oh, the old "they can always find another job" lie."....LOL, boy are
> you right on this one.
>
> Ever notice that the Government STOPS tracking once the unemployed
> person's unemployment payments end.
>
> Now why would they do that? Wouldn't you think that they would want to
> know how long it took to find the next job....and to know if the new
> job paid equal or more in compensation.
>
> They have no data because they intentionally do not measure it.....nor
> want to know.
>
> Knowing the truth would not be in the interest of those who would be
> responsible for having to fix the problem.
>
> I have also found it very interesting to note the wringing of hands and
> gnashing of teeth when unemployment walks the streets of Wall
> Street....it would seem that labor cuts are only good for someone else
> other than the company you work for.
>
Jerry Okamura
is, you have to work at finding another job. You cannot be your own worse
enemy, when looking for that job.
"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1150239983.6...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Jerry Okamura
foremost get a good education in the right fields, and you will not be left
behind. Second, don't assume that you only have to get the education to be
successful. An education only gets your foot in the door, what you do after
than is up to you. Third, in order to make any sense of the data, you have
to know what the education attainment level is for these people. For
instance, since union jobs are shrinking (part of the middle class), what is
the affect of that trend on middle class incomes, since these are jobs that
generally pay well, which requires less education. In other words, many
factors contribute to the trend. To look at only one factor is not only
misleading, it is rather simple minded, to say that is the root cause of the
problem.
"Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote in message
news:129026j...@corp.supernews.com...
Jerry Okamura
> Jerry Okamura wrote:
>> "Greg Preston" <surv...@virus.co.uk> wrote:
>>>"jonse" <9083...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Roanoke Company Sends Jobs To China 275 Left Unemployed By Hooker
>>>>Furniture
>>>
>>>Get used to it, the yanks are simply reaping the rewards of the free
>>>market economy they enjoyed pushing on other nations for years, the yanks
>>>were happy enough when it was THEIR mass production systems wiping out
>>>other nations industrial bases, now the yanks are getting a taste of
>>>their own medicine, you reaps what you sow.
>>
>> You cannot wipe out another nations industrial bases without that nation
>> doing some really dumb things.
>
> God only knows the Americans have done dumb things. Like
> electing Reagan to two terms, and now Bush.
>
rates, and high unemployement at the same time?
Miguel O'Pastel
"Jerry Okamura" <okamu...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:EkEjg.1290$MF6....@tornado.socal.rr.com...
M
Jerry Okamura
"Miguel O'Pastel" <nocapi...@tall.kid> wrote in message
news:JYydnUMX_aoP9g3Z...@speakeasy.net...
What war crimes did I commit? Does that mean that anyone who provides goods
and services to our military are also war ciminals? That farmer who grows
the crops that are needed to feed the soldiers are war criminals? The
people who work in manufacturing facilities that provide all the goods and
services, directly or indirectly are all war ciminals?
Jeffrey Turner
Some find jobs, often at much lower salaries. Some cobble
together enough work to get by. Some take early "retirement."
Some live on their spouse's income, and some, well there's
shelters and drugs and who knows what.
Too_Many_Tools
cannot be your own worse
enemy, when looking for that job."
Okay....I do strongly agree with you on this issue...one can often be
one's worst enemy.
I apoligize if I misread your comments...I took issue with what I
thought was the widely mistaken idea that finding another job is
easy....it almost never is and in the last few years I have seen many
highly qualified people lose their livelihoods due to no fault of their
own. They were current in their fields....fields that are
systematically being outsourced by this Administration while the cry
goes out that there is a "shortage" of trained people.
The only labor shortage in the United States is for highly skilled
people to work for no benefits and for minimum wages.
TMT
Morton Davis
"Miguel O'Pastel" <nocapi...@tall.kid> wrote in message
news:JYydnUMX_aoP9g3Z...@speakeasy.net...
>
germans...@yahoo.com
Jeffrey Turner wrote:
> Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> > On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:58:23 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
> > <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
> >>Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> >>>On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 21:36:15 -0400, Jeffrey Turner
> >>><jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
> >>>>Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> >>>>>On 10 Jun 2006 14:18:48 -0700, Seper...@aol.com wrote:
> >>>>>>Jerry Okamura wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>You either compete or you go out of business. If you go out of business,
> >>>>>>>these people would be out of a job in any event.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>That's rather simplistic.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>An immproved product, a superior product or finding new ways to appeal
> >>>>>>to your market are also methods of competition, none of which involve
> >>>>>>moving your company to China.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>The operative phrase is "your company." I have every right
> >>>>>to move my company to China, if that's where I can get my
> >>>>>products manufactured on the most competitive basis.
> >>>>
> >>>>Why do Republicans hate America?
> >>>
> >>>They are much more likely to have something like "God Bless
> >>>America" stickers on their bumpers. Democrats' bumpers are
> >>>usually reserved for something like "Save the Whales."
> >>
> >>That's nice. Doesn't answer my question though.
> >
> > OK, your question is ridiculous. I see no indication
> > whatsoever that the Republicans hate America.
>
> Only a Republican would say that having your job outsourced is
> good for you. And then not do anything to help people retrain.
Or an American PR whore trying to push good chinese press on Americans.
Wasn't the Chinese govt. hiring a PR firm out of Austin, Tx, for
awhile, when they were trying to buy UNOCAL?
Hey hey China, how many political prisoners did you execute today?
>
> >> Besides,
> >>you can't just sit around waiting for God to do anything.
> >>God helps those that help themselves, you know. The
> >>Administration doesn't seem to believe in anything but
> >>helping themselves - to whatever they can get away with.
> >
> > I thought you were discussing the Bush II Administration,
> > but the above accurately describes the Clinton
> > Administration.
>
> Clinton wasn't great but at least he didn't loot trillions
> from the national treasury.
>
> >>And it's the Republican administration that's trampling the
> >>Constitution and the Republican Congress that won't lift a
> >>finger to stop it.
> >
> > Every administration since at least 1933 has trampled the
> > Constitution, and no Congress has stopped them.
>
> Oh, please. The secrecy, the midnight deportations, the
> torture, the signing statements, the sneak and peek searches,
> the illegal wiretaps, ad nauseum. Even Nixon's counsel, John
> Dean, says this group is worse than Nixon's. And Congress
> blocked Roosevelt's court packing venture, so I'd say you're
> all wet.
Jerry Okamura
And some find jobs that are better paying?
Some cobble
> together enough work to get by.
And some who are because of the fact that they lost their jobs, ended up
being better off?
Some take early "retirement."
Which may not be a bad choice at all. Better to be retired, than working?
> Some live on their spouse's income, and some, well there's
> shelters and drugs and who knows what.
>
That is the point. You either figure out how to survive, or you die.
Jerry Okamura
> "What I did say is, you have to work at finding another job. You
> cannot be your own worse
> enemy, when looking for that job."
>
> Okay....I do strongly agree with you on this issue...one can often be
> one's worst enemy.
>
> I apoligize if I misread your comments...I took issue with what I
> thought was the widely mistaken idea that finding another job is
> easy....it almost never is and in the last few years I have seen many
> highly qualified people lose their livelihoods due to no fault of their
> own. They were current in their fields....fields that are
> systematically being outsourced by this Administration while the cry
> goes out that there is a "shortage" of trained people.
Huh? It is our responsibility and no one elses responsbility, to know what
may happen in the jobs we hold. If you work in an area that can be
outsourced, then you would be foolish not to expect that the outsources may
result in you being out of a job.
>
> The only labor shortage in the United States is for highly skilled
> people to work for no benefits and for minimum wages.
If you work for no benefits, that means you "choose" not to work for someone
who did not provide the benefits that you wanted. and no highly skilled
worker is going to work for minimum wages, or they are fools....
SisterIl...@aol.com
Jerry Okamura wrote:
> "Seperatist9" <Border...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1150062536.4...@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Gunner wrote:
> >> On 10 Jun 2006 18:04:09 -0700, "Seperatist9" <Border...@aol.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Robert Sturgeon wrote:
> >> >> On 10 Jun 2006 14:18:48 -0700, Seper...@aol.com wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Jerry Okamura wrote:
> >> >> >> You either compete or you go out of business. If you go out of
> >> >> >> business,
> >> >> >> these people would be out of a job in any event.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >That's rather simplistic.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >An immproved product, a superior product or finding new ways to
> >> >> >appeal
> >> >> >to your market are also methods of competition, none of which involve
> >> >> >moving your company to China.
> >> >>
> >> >> The operative phrase is "your company." I have every right
> >> >> to move my company to China, if that's where I can get my
> >> >> products manufactured on the most competitive basis.
> >> >
> >> >keep my business here, work to keep my business here, and repay those
> >> >who helped to educate and protect me, giving me a pretty good life.
> >> >
> >> >God Bless America, you greedy selfish piece of crap!
> >> >
> >>
> >> And if you are really lucky..the trustees give you a few dollars back
> >> after the auction.
> >>
> >> Gunner, who just lost $3000 to a company that went backrupt after the
> >> Chinese started making a clone of their product line..for 1/3 the price.
> >
> > Well, I don't believe in the "freehand of business," I think a
> > government has to impose SOME tariffs and taxes, just to protect it's
> > self, the country, and it's workers.
>
> This is one of those chicken and egg issues. If you interfere with the
> market to protect one part of your economy, the other country will do the
> same thing to protect one part of their economy. And that can result in a
> downward spiral, where each country, retaliates against the other countries
> actions to protect on part of their economy.
American business can afford to pay some tax on those services and
goods they are taking overseas. They benefit from American schools, the
American taxpayer and standard of living to create and establish their
businesses, they should be obligated to put something back. The free
hand of business will NOT work here, without egregiously harming
American interests. You cannot appease, fearful the other country will
economically retaliate.
> >
> > Business has been given a free ride over the last couple of years, much
> > to the benefit of the Chinese.
>
> And to the benefit of those less fortunate in this country who are able to
> afford to buy products that they might not otherwise be able to afford
> perhaps?
As opposed to what they have lost in standard of living, and basic
health insurance for themselves and their children? We are mortgaged to
the Chinese, in order to support the tax cuts. Isn't that where all the
housing money came from, to support the otherwise flat economy?
BTW, It's a myth propagated by businessmen that the poor benefit from
that cheap Chinese trash, let's be honest here. Those "savings" have
harmed Americans.
SisterIl...@aol.com
> > Jeff raises the point that the pro business crowd always seems to over
> > look...on purpose.
> >
> > Having the ability to buy "cheap crap" (and most of it is just that)
> > does not compensate for loss of income, the cost to find new employment
> > and the subsequent lower wages and benefits that are occurring in the
> > United States.
>
> There is no lost of income. If you lost your job tomorrow, for whatever
> reason, you can find another job. The only "income" you may have lost, is
> that income you did not receive from the time you lost your job in the last
> place you worked, to the time you find another job, or if the next job pays
> less than the previous job, which has more to do with the skills you have,
> than anything else.
But if I'm a Ford auto worker, making 20.00 an hour, or for that
matter, a computer engineer, I will not be able to make an equal wage,
given the majority of those jobs have been outsourced. I can work at
Starbucks for 8.00/hour, but I no longer have health care, or the
ability to purchase a house. So there is a loss of wages, as well as
standard of living.
Ford will be opening up a new factory in China, but I won't be buying.
I woud prefer to pay a higher price for an American made car, say, than
a lower priced one from China. Ultimately, it is my better interest to
support the American worker, and the American economy, if I want to
maintain my standard of living.
It's not as if the Chinese have our best interests at heart now, is it?
> >
> > It does allow companies to skim ever larger profits off the sheeple
> > while defraying their costs to the public...aka Walmart health
> > insurance.
>
> It ain't a free ride. If Walmart or any other company provides any benefit
> to their employees, someone is going to pay for that cost. In the case of
> Walmart, it will be the customers who will pay for the cost, because Walmart
> will simply tack on the cost of that benefit to every product they sell.
> Walmart does not really pay for the benefit, their custormers pay for the
> benefit.
Walmart made record profits, in the hundreds of billions, last year.
How much is enough? And the atmosphere inside their stores is horrible
-- angry workers, messy floors, merchandise scattered all over. Our
taxes also subsidize the health care costs of the Wal-Mart worker, as
most are on state health care plans, if I rememeber correctly. Frankly,
I think we'd all come out ahead if Wal Mart would raise it's prices a
bit, lower it's profit MARGIN, and pay it's workers decently.
Wal Mart has a responsiblity to America, too.
Sue
You'd have to ask their stockholders - folks like you and me.
> And the atmosphere inside their stores is horrible
>-- angry workers, messy floors, merchandise scattered all over.
I can't speak for other places but our Wal*Mart is neat and tidy and
the workers seem perfectly happy.
> Our
>taxes also subsidize the health care costs of the Wal-Mart worker, as
>most are on state health care plans, if I rememeber correctly. Frankly,
>I think we'd all come out ahead if Wal Mart would raise it's prices a
>bit, lower it's profit MARGIN, and pay it's workers decently.
What is "decently"? What would you consider to be the right hourly
wage for Wal*Mart to pay their employees? The Wal*Mart where I live
pays above minimum wage (California - $6.75 per hour).
>
>Wal Mart has a responsiblity to America, too.
They have a responsibility to their stockholders. Ordinary folks.
Ordinary Americans.
Sue
SisterIl...@aol.com
I"d have to say bullshit.
And this is another tired old business line trotted out. What we loose
in standard of living cannot be compensated by your little stock gain.
BTW, if you're middle class, you are loosing far more in your standard
of living than you are making in any stock gains. And if you're not
middle class, if you can easily afford your health care, you dont'
belong here, and somehow, you give yourself away, "Sue."
>
> > And the atmosphere inside their stores is horrible
> >-- angry workers, messy floors, merchandise scattered all over.
>
> I can't speak for other places but our Wal*Mart is neat and tidy and
> the workers seem perfectly happy.
That would be where, in Brigadoon, with Elvis, and JFK?
Don't you ever yearn for the real world?
As a troll, you suck, and as a Wal Mart shill, you are simply an
untouchable skank.
>
> > Our
> >taxes also subsidize the health care costs of the Wal-Mart worker, as
> >most are on state health care plans, if I rememeber correctly. Frankly,
> >I think we'd all come out ahead if Wal Mart would raise it's prices a
> >bit, lower it's profit MARGIN, and pay it's workers decently.
>
> What is "decently"? What would you consider to be the right hourly
> wage for Wal*Mart to pay their employees? The Wal*Mart where I live
> pays above minimum wage (California - $6.75 per hour).
Should we base that on Wal Mart profits?
What about taxes?
Tax rates can be too high for the average citizen, but corporate
profits, made at that citizens expense of health care and standard of
living, left untaxed, are allowable?
What about state tax payers subsidizing WAl MArts health care? If
you're an American tax payer < cough> you're paying for a Wal Mart
employee's trip to the emergency room.
Does that offset your capital gains, 'Sue?"
A country cannot sustain itself with this type of economic policy.
BTW, have you figured how we are going to pay for the Iraqi war yet?
Let me know, when you do, we'd all love to hear it...
>
> >
> >Wal Mart has a responsiblity to America, too.
>
> They have a responsibility to their stockholders. Ordinary folks.
> Ordinary Americans.
They have a responsibilty to teh country that pays for thier services.
Take your jingoistic PR bullshit and shove it up your fat tired ass.
OTOH, the flonk is looking for a few tired, cliched trolls, you might
go there...
Cleveland rawks, man...
> Sue
Gunner
>>
>> I can't speak for other places but our Wal*Mart is neat and tidy and
>> the workers seem perfectly happy.
>
>That would be where, in Brigadoon, with Elvis, and JFK?
>
>Don't you ever yearn for the real world?
>
>As a troll, you suck, and as a Wal Mart shill, you are simply an
>untouchable skank.
Whoops... Comrade Sisterfucker made a big mistake at this point
<pinko>
Robert Sturgeon
wrote:
(snips)
>> This is one of those chicken and egg issues. If you interfere with the
>> market to protect one part of your economy, the other country will do the
>> same thing to protect one part of their economy. And that can result in a
>> downward spiral, where each country, retaliates against the other countries
>> actions to protect on part of their economy.
>
>American business can afford to pay some tax on those services and
>goods they are taking overseas.
You want people to pay taxes on work they no longer do, or
on work they no longer have done by others? How in the
goofy heck would that work?
> They benefit from American schools, the
>American taxpayer and standard of living to create and establish their
>businesses, they should be obligated to put something back.
People pay income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, excise
taxes, and now you want them to pay extra taxes because they
buy something made in China instead of buying something made
in the U.S.? Next I suppose you'll want people to pay taxes
on things they used to buy, but no longer buy from anyone at
all...
> The free
>hand of business will NOT work here, without egregiously harming
>American interests.
The basic American interest is in having a free and open
market. This leads to a healthy, growing economy, and
people who can make more income and spend it more
efficiently.
> You cannot appease, fearful the other country will
>economically retaliate.
Trade isn't appeasement.
>> > Business has been given a free ride over the last couple of years, much
>> > to the benefit of the Chinese.
>>
>> And to the benefit of those less fortunate in this country who are able to
>> afford to buy products that they might not otherwise be able to afford
>> perhaps?
>
>As opposed to what they have lost in standard of living, and basic
>health insurance for themselves and their children? We are mortgaged to
>the Chinese, in order to support the tax cuts.
Wrong. The tax cuts have more than paid for themselves by
causing people to engage in more business, making more
money, and, on net, paying more taxes than they were paying
before.
> Isn't that where all the
>housing money came from, to support the otherwise flat economy?
>
>BTW, It's a myth propagated by businessmen that the poor benefit from
>that cheap Chinese trash, let's be honest here. Those "savings" have
>harmed Americans.
No, they have not. Everyone is better off when trade is
maximized and each of us does that which we are most
competitive at doing. If some of us aren't competitive at
doing anything, then they need to work on their skills. If
our country as a whole isn't competitive because we have
chosen to burden our businesses with high labor costs, high
regulatory costs, and high taxes, then we need to reconsider
those choices. But blaming business owners for accurately
responding to the market conditions we have created is
ultimately pointless and counter-productive.
--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/
morticide
You work, you pay taxes, the government spends the taxes...by your
argument, that makes ALL of us "war criminals."
And we wonder why Osama purposely targeted civilians on 11 Sept. 2001.
Morton Davis
"Robert Sturgeon" <rst...@inreach.com> wrote in message
news:aso2929jos7ch331s...@4ax.com...
> On 14 Jun 2006 18:18:40 -0700, SisterIl...@aol.com
> wrote:
>
> (snips)
>
> >> This is one of those chicken and egg issues. If you interfere with the
> >> market to protect one part of your economy, the other country will do
the
> >> same thing to protect one part of their economy. And that can result
in a
> >> downward spiral, where each country, retaliates against the other
countries
> >> actions to protect on part of their economy.
> >
> >American business can afford to pay some tax on those services and
> >goods they are taking overseas.
>
> You want people to pay taxes on work they no longer do, or
> on work they no longer have done by others? How in the
> goofy heck would that work?
>
>
left can not get and refuse to try. I saw a bit on GMS this morning about
how the prices on everything are up. The pundits can't figure out why. It's
OIL. Everythiung costs more OIL is used somewhere in the pipeline to the
marketplace. If the tree hugges had allowed new nuclear plnts to be built,
things would be better now. If they'd allowed new, more efficient,
refineries to be built where diustribution could be spread out to allow more
efficient distribution, things would be better now. But they DIDN'T, so
we're all going to pay the price for their bull headed stupidity in higher
prices on EVERYTHING we buy.
Jeffrey Turner
After 30 years in a Michigan auto plant? Highly doubtful.
>> Some cobble
>>together enough work to get by.
>
> And some who are because of the fact that they lost their jobs, ended up
> being better off?
Some people who play the lottery end up rich. I suggest you
spend your whole paycheck on tickets.
>> Some take early "retirement."
>
> Which may not be a bad choice at all. Better to be retired, than working?
Depends if you liked your job. Or if you needed the income.
>>Some live on their spouse's income, and some, well there's
>>shelters and drugs and who knows what.
>
> That is the point. You either figure out how to survive, or you die.
The cri de coeur of compassionate conservatism. I hope it's not
lost on Gunner, who claims that the streets aren't littered with
dead bodies. I wondered if you were mean or just stupid, now we
know.
Jeffrey Turner
> "Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>"What I did say is, you have to work at finding another job. You
>>cannot be your own worse
>>enemy, when looking for that job."
>>
>>Okay....I do strongly agree with you on this issue...one can often be
>>one's worst enemy.
>>
>>I apoligize if I misread your comments...I took issue with what I
>>thought was the widely mistaken idea that finding another job is
>>easy....it almost never is and in the last few years I have seen many
>>highly qualified people lose their livelihoods due to no fault of their
>>own. They were current in their fields....fields that are
>>systematically being outsourced by this Administration while the cry
>>goes out that there is a "shortage" of trained people.
>
>
> Huh? It is our responsibility and no one elses responsbility, to know what
> may happen in the jobs we hold. If you work in an area that can be
> outsourced, then you would be foolish not to expect that the outsources may
> result in you being out of a job.
>
>>The only labor shortage in the United States is for highly skilled
>>people to work for no benefits and for minimum wages.
>
>
> If you work for no benefits, that means you "choose" not to work for someone
> who did not provide the benefits that you wanted.
Yes, silly you, you could have stayed home and starved to death.
> and no highly skilled
> worker is going to work for minimum wages, or they are fools....
It helps to go into salary negotiations with a gun.
Jeffrey Turner
Yeah. Except that stagflation was a Ford thing. And what
should he have done with the Shah? He didn't start that U.S.
policy. So, unless you can point to the part of the Carter
economic policy that was responsible, I'll just ignore your
partisan hackery.
Jeffrey Turner
> There are a couple of simple solutions to the perceived problem. First and
> foremost get a good education in the right fields, and you will not be left
> behind.
You know somewhere where good educations grow on trees? Have
you seen the cost of four years of college lately? And how do
you know which are the "right fields"? If everyone goes into
those fields they aren't going to be much of a haven when the
job market contracts.
> Second, don't assume that you only have to get the education to be
> successful. An education only gets your foot in the door, what you do after
> than is up to you.
Gosh, yes. If you say that real sincerely, you could get work
as a "motivational speaker." Whether you win or lose, you're
still a rat.
> Third, in order to make any sense of the data, you have
> to know what the education attainment level is for these people. For
> instance, since union jobs are shrinking (part of the middle class), what is
> the affect of that trend on middle class incomes, since these are jobs that
> generally pay well, which requires less education. In other words, many
> factors contribute to the trend. To look at only one factor is not only
> misleading, it is rather simple minded, to say that is the root cause of the
> problem.
Yeah, magicians do that all the time. Keep your eye on the
right hand, now. Oops, what did she do with her left? But I
know what the trends are and know enough about economics to
know what went down. Cut the top marginal tax rates, borrow
from, rather than tax, the rich. Spend the middle class's
taxes paying interest to the rich. Make them raise their own
property taxes or do without. Destroy the unions. Lots of
factors, all pointing in the same direction.
It's amazing how few specifics you name. But it's not
surprising.
--Jeff
> "Jeffrey Turner" <jtu...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>Jerry Okamura wrote:
>>>"Too_Many_Tools" <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The Bush economy, that of what it is, sucks for the middle class.
>>>
>>>Why?
>>
>>Because it follows in Reaganite policies that were designed to
>>transfer vast amounts of wealth from the middle to the upper
>>classes. That's why the rich get huge tax cuts. Try looking at
>>the graphs at the bottom of page 4 of this document to see
>>exactly how skewed towards the very wealthy these policies are.
>>
>>http://www.census.gov/prod/2000pubs/p60-204.pdf
>>
>>It's known as class warfare.
--
Jeffrey Turner
You're in the other half of Fortune's ten richest Americans?
>>And the atmosphere inside their stores is horrible
>>-- angry workers, messy floors, merchandise scattered all over.
>
> I can't speak for other places but our Wal*Mart is neat and tidy and
> the workers seem perfectly happy.
I suppose they'd get fired if they didn't _seem_ perfectly happy.
>>Our
>>taxes also subsidize the health care costs of the Wal-Mart worker, as
>>most are on state health care plans, if I rememeber correctly. Frankly,
>>I think we'd all come out ahead if Wal Mart would raise it's prices a
>>bit, lower it's profit MARGIN, and pay it's workers decently.
>
> What is "decently"? What would you consider to be the right hourly
> wage for Wal*Mart to pay their employees? The Wal*Mart where I live
> pays above minimum wage (California - $6.75 per hour).
Gasp! Well, with wages like that, I can only guess how many of
them are Wal*Mart stockholders.
>>Wal Mart has a responsiblity to America, too.
>
> They have a responsibility to their stockholders. Ordinary folks.
> Ordinary Americans.
Not like _those_ people, who have to work for a living.
--Jeff