Interview with Jean-Marie Le Pen in Jewish magazine
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http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=153419
Le Pen ultimate
FROM the balcony of his home in the prestigious suburb of Saint Cloud,
Jean-Marie Le Pen has a sweeping view of Paris, that takes in the Eiffel
Tower, Montparnasse, and the white Sacre Coeur church in Montmarte, at the
northern edge of the city. The big three-story house is surrounded by a
green metal fence. Nothing about it would arouse any curiosity; there is no
guard posted at the entrance, and if there are any security cameras, they
are very well hidden. The only obvious nod to security is a standard
intercom at the gate.
A young man in a dark suit opens the front gate. We walk along the edge of
an expansive green lawn. Two statues of black butlers dressed in bright
green and holding lanterns flank the front door. Between them are two very
large straw baskets, of the kind used for pets. Their unusual size piques my
interest. "Oh that," the young man says. "Those are for Monsieur Le Pen's
two Dobermans. They're out in the yard now."
Statues of Joan of Arc fill the house; they can be found in every corner -
some on horseback, others in gold, silver and in marble. In the first-floor
room that serves as Le Pen's study, an oil painting in a polished wood frame
draws a visitor's attention. The portrait shows a smiling Le Pen (several
decades younger) against a black background. He is wearing a black patch
over his left eye.
"It was about 40 years ago, during an election campaign," he explains.
"Political rivals attacked me. I was savagely beaten. I was kicked in the
face and I lost my eye as a result."
His opponents might see the story of the patch as epitomizing his life. They
say he is a racist provocateur, someone who loves a fight, who stirs up
strife and contention; a despised and dangerous man who went looking for a
violent dust-up and lost his eye as a consequence. His contrasting version
of events fits in well with his regular complaints of being politically
slandered, of the deep-rooted misunderstandings and about systematic abuse
from the establishment.
Even the more jocular aspect that he seeks to ascribe to the whole episode
perfectly suits his personality: "On one occasion, a female political rival
claimed that I was looking at her with a `hard stare.' I replied: `But of
course, madam. You are looking at my glass eye,'" he says with a boisterous
laugh.
An encounter with Le Pen can be a bit of a culture shock. The man is blessed
with a rare, intoxicating charisma. Not for nothing did one Jewish political
activist in Paris tell me that, if it weren't for the anti-Semitic
overtones, he might well have been persuaded by Le Pen and ended up casting
his vote for the man. He looks different from up close. His features are
softer. His eyes (including the artificial one) are bright. He is wearing a
black suit and a blue and gray striped tie, with a matching handkerchief in
his jacket pocket. He continuously breaks into raucous laughter that all the
other people in the room find infectious.
Le Pen has good reason to smile. In 1998, his National Front experienced a
major crisis. His second-in-command, Bruno Megret, stepped down and founded
a competing party. In France, talk of a collapse of the extreme right was
rife. The media abandoned Le Pen. He was practically forgotten. Yet, in
recent weeks, he has gained surprising momentum. His support in the polls
stands at 13 percent. He has passed the Trotskyite Arlette Laguiller and the
nationalist-leftist Jean-Pierre Chevenement and established himself as "the
third man": the person whose statements and voters could determine the
identity of the next president of France in the upcoming presidential
elections, the first round of which will be held just two days from now, on
April 21.
Anti-Semitism in France? There's no such thing
These days, Le Pen is trying to portray himself as more moderate in an
effort to distance himself from the scandals of the past. He is still an
avowed opponent of immigration. He still holds extreme nationalist,
Euro-phobic and anti-American views, but he is careful to avoid saying
anything that could get him pinned once again with the anti-Semitic label
and tie him to the current wave of attacks in France. He watches the
anti-Semitic events from afar and agrees with the consensus that says they
are an import of the conflict in the Middle East.
"There has definitely been a rise in anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic acts in
the past year and a half," he says. "Curses and graffiti have given way to
attacks and incitement. It's all an outgrowth of what's happening in the
Middle East now. The height of the flames depends on how the conflict
develops, on the parties' readiness to reach a compromise."
It is very comfortable for Le Pen to observe all the anti-Semitic incidents
from the sidelines, explains Jean Daniel, editor of the weekly Le Nouvel
Observateur. He no longer needs to sully himself. The "Arabs" are doing the
job for him, say other analysts. They are "the real anti-Semites" and, at
the same time, they are earning the public's hatred. Moreover, says the
analysts, Le Pen is killing two birds with one stone: He believes the Muslim
immigrants are "a grave phenomenon," perhaps the biggest problem facing
France at the start of the 21st century. "There is a general problem of
gangs that live in the suburbs of the big cities. They are using the events
[in the Middle East] as ideological cover for their actions," he says.
Gangs?
"There is an Islamic population in France, most of which comes from the
North African countries. Though some may have French citizenship, they don't
have the French cultural background or sociological structure. They operate
according to a different logic than most of the population here. Their
values are different from those of the Judeo-Christian world. Not long ago,
they spat at the president of the republic. They booed when the national
anthem was played at a soccer game [in Paris, between the national teams of
France and Algeria]. These elements have a negative effect on all of public
security. They are strengthened demographically both by natural reproduction
and by immigration, which reinforces their stubborn ethnic segregation,
their domineering nature. This is the world of Islam in all its
aberrations."
Could "classic" anti-Semitism join with the "new" anti-Semitism in France?
"I have no idea what `classic anti-Semitism' is. I'm not familiar with this
term. I don't know where it comes from and what connection it has to France
and what is occurring here. There wasn't anti-Semitism in France. An
isolated incident can always happen. When two drivers curse each other on
the road, and one of them happens to be a Jew, you can't define that as
anti-Semitism. In recent years - before the intifada - there were three or
four incidents of anti-Semitism a year, and that's out of 18 million crimes
and violations of the law."
There has never been anti-Semitism in France? Aren't you forgetting some
things? What about the Dreyfus Affair?
"The Dreyfus Affair is an exceptional case. It's true that here and there
you can find some dregs of anti-Semitism, but the situation is the same in
every country. After all, you're not exactly a nation like all the other
nations. You are unique, if only because you are such an ancient people, and
because of the way you are spread all over the world and your obvious
success in many fields. But, in all honesty, anti-Semitism in France has
always remained on a minimal level, at the verbal level only. It never went
as far as pogroms."
And in the Vichy period?
"Vichy is a case unto itself. The Vichy government was under occupation and
carried out the orders of the German occupier. In French politics, there
isn't a single anti-Semitic party, from the political-ideological
standpoint."
Do you agree with Jacques Chirac's 1995 statement about France's
responsibility for the crimes of the Vichy government?
"No. France was not responsible for this criminal policy. France was an
occupied country, a country that surrendered and was left without the right
to choose. Therefore, to be fair, you cannot say that it was a willing
partner in this policy. On this I agree with De Gaulle [who viewed France as
a `resistance country' - A.P.], and with practically all the French leaders
aside from Jacques Chirac. I am sure that he made this statement for
electoral reasons. It was a showy move designed to win sympathy in certain
circles."
Which circles?
"In this case, Jewish circles. In a successful book that was published
recently ["L'homme qui ne s'aimait pas" - "The Man Who Didn't Love
Himself"], Eric Zemmour, a journalist from Le Figaro, quotes President
Chirac as saying after his declaration of French responsibility for Vichy
crimes: `I hope the Jews will stop pestering me from now on.'"
Do you consider Chirac's declaration a historic mistake?
"Yes. You cannot speak on behalf of a nation when you have no mandate to do
so. You also cannot speak on a nation's behalf about things that happened in
the past. He can express his personal opinion, but not in the name of
France. It's no coincidence that not one of Chirac's predecessors, including
De Gaulle - the great fighter against Vichy - did not make such a statement.
I'm always suspicious of people who repent of other people's sins."
In the past, there were Nazi collaborators in your party. Has there been a
deliberate change in the party, or have those people simply died out?
"I don't think it is accurate to say that the movement was founded or run by
Nazi collaborators. First of all, my influence in the party has always been
decisive and I have never compromised on these things. In the movement
itself, there was no mention of fascism or national-socialism. In my
speeches, I always condemned communism, national-socialism and fascism.
Incidentally, I define all of them as leftist movements that were spawned by
the French Revolution. The only reason that our movement was pegged with the
extremist label is because of our loyalty to the principle of `French
Algeria' and our opposition to the policy of separation from Algeria, which
De Gaulle instituted.
"There was no reason to label us as anti-Semitic. No reason at all. I do not
know one person in the National Front who committed even the most minor
hostile act against a Jewish person or Jewish property. As for me, even
though I have been accused of anti-Semitism countless times, no one has ever
heard me make anti-Semitic statements or engage in anti-Semitic behavior.
There just are people, organizations, that need an adversary and they want
the public to believe that this adversary is dangerous."
Xenophobe or anti-Semite?
Is Le Pen anti-Semitic? Surprisingly, observers do not have an unequivocal
reply to this question. For Jean Daniel, he is "a nationalist who hates
foreigners, but is not necessarily anti-Semitic." Theo Klein, a former
leader of the Jewish community in France, tends to concur: "Le Pen is a
xenophobe first and foremost. His attitude toward Jews is a product of his
theory that only someone who was born in France, and has no other
affiliation, is French." Noted commentator Dominique Moisi says that any
change in Le Pen is solely tactical. "Since crime is the main issue in the
elections, and since this is `his' issue, he can portray himself as the
expert and fully exploit the `I told you so' tactic by calling on the public
to vote for the `original' and not for poor imitations. He no longer needs
to make anti-Semitic statements, but fundamentally, he is still an
anti-Semite."
Pierre-Andre Taguieff, who has closely studied the National Front and
published a number of books about the party and about racism in France, says
the picture is somewhat complex: "Le Pen's electorate is definitely the most
anti-Jewish. According to polls published at the beginning of April, about
52 percent of his supporters are wary of Jews. Le Pen has to take note of
this statistic. He also certainly identifies with the conspiracy view held
by 34 percent of the French, who feel that the Jews have too much power,
that they control politics and manipulate it to suit their purposes."
Yet Taguieff, who recently published a best-seller about the "new
anti-Semitism" in France, is not quick to call Le Pen an anti-Semite: "It's
very hard to say. I'm convinced that his ideal is a France without Jews and
North Africans. But no one has ever been able to identify him unequivocally
as an anti-Semite. The anti-racist and anti-fascist circles in France tend
to exaggerate their legal victories against him and to forget those in which
he emerged triumphant. Overall, you could say it is a draw."
His wealth of past statements do not leave much room for doubt. The biggest
scandal arose in wake of a 1987 interview in which he was asked about the
Nazi gas chambers: "I'm not saying that the gas chambers didn't exist. I
couldn't see them myself. I haven't devoted any special study to the
subject, but I believe it is just a detail in the history of World War II."
When asked to elaborate about this "detail" in 1997, Le Pen explained: "If
you take a thousand-page book about World War II, the concentration camps
would take up two pages and the gas chambers would take up 10 to 15 lines.
That's what I call a detail."
He referred to the former socialist minister Michel Durafour as "Durafour
Crematoire," and described Jewish television star Anne Sinclair as "a juicy
kosher butcher." When asked directly by journalists whether he was an
anti-Semite, he responded: "I don't like Chagall and my favorite composer is
Wagner. Does that make me anti-Jewish?"
To return to the question of the so-called "new anti-Semitism." Some say
that the French government is closing its eyes to the problem for electoral
reasons. How big a part does the Arab vote play in these elections?
"I don't think there is such a thing as the `Arab vote' in France. The
residents of the suburbs who are responsible for the violent incidents don't
take part in the elections at all. The French government is simply fleeing
from responsibility. It is declining to grapple with the violent activity.
It fears that tackling it would heighten the violent atmosphere and so it is
preventing the security forces from intervening. This is a very risky
approach because you cannot retreat indefinitely: In the end, it won't be
possible to put off a response, and by then it will have to be at a much
higher level of violence than if it were done today."
Do you agree with claims that Israeli accusations of French anti-Semitism
were meant to encourage French Jews to move to Israel and perhaps to also
keep France from playing a role in the Middle East?
"I think that it is the Americans, more than Israel, who wish to keep France
from playing a role in the Middle East. In my judgement, there is a basic
popular sympathy for Israel in France, but the demonstrative sympathy tends
to go to the other side. In the current conflict, the French media is
pro-Arab for two reasons: The large Arab and Islamic presence in France
combined with the weight of the billion Muslims in the world, and the fact
that Sharon is a rightist. The hostility would be less if a leftist prime
minister was pursuing exactly the same policy."
Are you talking about just the media?
"I'm talking about the government and the French intelligentsia, too. The
government would have preferred not to take a stand, but the constant
presence of the Israeli-Arab conflict on our television screens made it an
issue that could no longer be avoided. The result is that you are now
experiencing what we experienced in the war in Algeria: The Israeli
government says that it is a victim of terrorist activity, but this activity
is less visible than the military strikes. I belonged to the 10th paratroop
division that was ordered to destroy the terror in Algiers. This was after a
series of terror attacks against civilians in public centers. The division
did wipe out terror, and it didn't do this by being gentle with the
terrorists. A war on terror is a brutal thing."
Does it include torture?
Le Pen's strong, deep voice fills the room; he is almost shouting, and
frequently waves his hands. Every now and then he grimaces, and it seems as
though he has forgotten he is giving an interview in the privacy of his own
home. At these moments, which are relatively rare, the Le Pen we know from
his public speeches comes to the surface - this is the Le Pen who ignites
the masses. At this point, he loses his calm demeanor. It's clear that the
subject of torture is a sensitive one.
"Torture, torture - What is torture? You have to define for me what torture
is."
What is your definition of torture?
"I don't know. I would define it as `a series of violent acts that cause
physical injury to individuals, actions that destroy the personality and
leave traces.' Police and military interrogations do not fit this definition
of torture. What's surprising is that the people who fought against torture
here are the communists. And the communists are the ones who used to
practice systematic mass torture in their own countries. The suffering
caused by the terrorists is the real torture. The struggle against
terrorists sometimes requires secrecy and it has its own rules. The enemy
must not be allowed the advantage that permits him to plant bombs when and
where he wants. In this struggle, everyone must carry his own burden."
ON one wall of his home is a large portrait of a younger Le Pen dressed in a
white uniform. His shirt is decorated with paratroop wings and various
medals. The painter dedicated his work "to Jean-Marie Le Pen, who is loyal
to France." Loyalty to the homeland is certainly a supreme virtue in Le
Pen's book. It is directly related to his justification of torture: Everyone
must carry his own burden, he says.
In 1987, the satirical weekly Le Canard Enchaine wrote that Le Pen himself
was an active participant in torture in Algeria. The Liberation newspaper
later published testimony of Algerian torture victims who described his
actions, which, they said, included beatings, kickings, floggings with whips
and chains, submersions and electric shocks. Le Pen, who claimed that his
reputation had been damaged, sued both newspapers for slander and lost
(though Le Canard Enchaine eventually lost in the appeals court). Today, it
seems that he does not wish to recall any details.
You were accused of having personally taken part in torture in Algeria.
"Me? I won in all the trials on this subject. All the people who made these
claims were denounced."
In other words, you proved that it wasn't true?
"Yes, certainly. Actually, no - I didn't have to prove that it wasn't true.
We live under the rule of law here. The burden was on the accusers to prove
their claims. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Supreme Court in Israel more or
less gave legal approval for ... let's not call it torture, which would just
play into the terrorists' hands. Let's call it `tough interrogations.'"
On the conflict in the Middle East, do you support a French mediation
initiative, would you prefer a European initiative, or to leave mediation to
the Americans?
"All the efforts at mediation are not effective. I wonder if international
influences might be harmful to negotiations, if they aren't pouring fuel on
the fire. There is a need for a direct understanding between Israel and the
Palestinians. I recognize that it is an exceedingly difficult situation:
Israel feels threatened, because it does not have strategic depth. At the
same time, its settlement policy is in doubt. The settlements are perceived
as an attempt to annex occupied territory. To be honest, I wouldn't want to
be in Mr. Sharon's place - and even less in Mr. Arafat's place (he bursts
into laughter). It's a terrible situation. Even when they are supported by
the West, the Israelis are still just several million versus a billion
Muslims. Fortunately, there will never be Islamic unity. They're all
different from one another and hostile to each other, thank God.
"The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is given totally disproportionate
coverage. It's a kind of permanent theater, an endless violent movie that
works more on the emotions than on reason."
Should the Israeli government have kept cameras out of the territories?
"That's the problem. We live in a world of entertainment. Cameras are
everywhere now. Everything is done before the open eyes of the citizens of
the world and these eyes don't always understand what they see. I think that
all the countries in the world that were in a state of war used censorship.
To conduct a war before the cameras, before the eyes of people who are
sitting in their armchairs 1,500 kilometers away, is a big impediment.
That's why I call it theater."
Can you understand the decision of the reservists in Israel who refused to
fight in the territories?
"As a former officer in the Foreign Legion, I think that discipline is an
army's main source of strength. What's happening [in Israel] is very
serious. As soon as the Israeli people ceases to stand behind the Israeli
army, the battle is lost."
Would you consider them traitors?
"I think that during war, you can't evade the difficult burden of war
discipline."
Do you think the military campaign that Sharon is waging in the territories
is justified?
"This is the policy that he declared. He is not betraying the commitments
that he made. He said from the beginning, `I will wage war,' and he is
waging a war with all the risks that involves. History will show if he was
right or wrong."
Can you understand the complaints in Israel about the "hypocritical"
European reaction?
"Certainly. After all, I got a similar reaction during the war in Algeria,
when I served in General Massu's 10th division. We were called upon to fight
the terrorism of the FLN (the Algerian nationalist movement that fought
against French colonialism). The intelligentsia at home criticized our
actions. It's very easy to criticize from the armchair in the living room. I
completely understand the State of Israel, which is seeking to defend its
citizens."
Muslims and other foreigners
What is your opinion of the war in Afghanistan and of statements like that
of Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who spoke of a "culture war"?
"That phrase is in fashion these days. The most worrisome thing about the
new Islam is the demographic data. This means it doesn't have to resort to
military means to take over a country. In France, there are six million
Muslim citizens who are recent arrivals. They entered in civilian dress, in
jeans. They'd never let six million people with weapons enter our territory.
But a person in jeans can become a soldier. If, despite their French
citizenship, these Muslims feel an affiliation with another entity, they
naturally become suspect in the eyes of those who one day will be compelled
to confront them."
Do you see the Muslims in France as "six million soldiers"?
"Today, entire areas in France are closed even to the security forces.
Sociological studies prove that potential rioters dominate in these areas.
The drug trade and gang violence thrive in these places, maybe religious
ideology, too. A propos this subject, I'll mention the complex problem of
Israeli Arabs: The problem with Islam lies in its incredible demographic
momentum. Over the next 20 years the population in four areas in the
Mediterranean and Middle East - Turkey, Iran, Egypt and the Maghreb - will
grow from 60-100 million inhabitants. They ought to be thought of as
superpowers. Let's hope that they will be pacifistic, but this is in no way
a sure thing. This is why we must protect our interests, our territory and
our heritage. In this context, I prefer a regime like that of Saddam Hussein
to, say, Saudi Arabia. The Ba'ath regime is secular and even permissive
toward other religions. Saudi Arabia is massively funding the spread of
Islam. It, rather than Iraq, should be viewed as a dangerous movement of
conquest."
Moisi describes Le Pen-ism as a unique phenomenon of the radical right: "He
combines pro-Israeli and even pro-Zionist attitudes with anti-Jewish
attitudes, and anti-Islamic attitudes with certain pro-Arab attitudes."
Taguieff says that Le Pen's internal contradictions are also expressed in
the sympathy he showed in the early 1990s for the fundamentalist Islamic
Salvation Front in Algeria, which fought the outgoing FLN regime; it is also
evident in his nostalgia for French imperialism versus his opposition to
Israeli settlements and the concept of the Greater Land of Israel.
The United States is apparently planning an attack on Iraq. How should
France respond?
"A war on Iraq is nothing more than a war for American material interests.
During the Gulf War, I derided all those who portrayed Iraq as the fourth
most powerful army in the world. It was ridiculous: To be one of the world's
most powerful armies, you have to manufacture arms and ammunition. Iraq was
crushed, its army was completely destroyed and the sanctions policy caused
hundreds of thousands of people to die of starvation.
"The problem with the Americans is that their disproportionate power makes
them undertake policies that aren't always balanced and well-considered, and
therefore dangerous. Today, there is worldwide tendency to dance to the tune
of the powerful. I, on the other hand, am a French patriot concerned with
the interests of France. Am I supposed to go crazy with admiration for the
Americans just because they are Americans?"
Do you condone the Israeli action against the Iraqi nuclear reactor?
"Yes, of course. That was an act of prevention. True, it doesn't conform to
international law, but in such a situation, there is no need to use it."
A romance with neofascism
A photographic biography edited by his daughter, Yan Marechal, says: "Le Pen
always had especially warm relations with his Italian colleagues," who
included Giorgio Almirante, founder of the neofascist movement MSI. On
another page, Franz Schoenhuber, the former leader of Germany's radical
right Republican party who served in the Waffen SS during the war, is
described as "a true friend of Le Pen. Much more than just a partner."
"Le Pen has very close ties with the radical right in Europe," says
Pierre-Andre Taguieff. "For 15 years, Le Pen has been openly embraced by
practically all the xenophobe nationalists and anti-Semites in Europe."
Le Pen would prefer to downplay these facts. "I have no connection with
Haider's party in Austria. I only spoke with Csurka (the anti-Semitic leader
in Hungary) once." He professes to have a hard time recalling the name of
the anti-Semitic leader of the Greater Romania party, Vadim Tudor: "I
haven't seen him in three years," he says, and then immediately says
something different.
In the past, you were linked with Franz Schoenhuber and his Republican party
in Germany.
"Schoenhuber did serve in the Waffen SS, but there are a million others like
him in Germany. After the war, he ran the television network in Munich,
served as a member of parliament and headed the Republican party. His first
wife was a Jew. So he wasn't an anti-Semite. In any case, this party has
disappeared. Schoenhuber retired and I have no connection with them."
Do you have any connection with the NPD [the neo-Nazi party in Germany]?
"No. I don't keep track of them or of their thinking and ideology."
In the confrontation between the German government and the NPD, whom do you
support?
"I don't have any opinion, because I don't know what struggle we're talking
about. I'm concerned only with France and its problems."
This struggle you say you know nothing about concerns outlawing the party.
"I am against such banning. Democracy is a framework for releasing natural
tensions - whether social, political or economic. It wouldn't be wise to
make martyrs out of people with such ideas."
You often talk about freedom of speech and expression. You even seem to be
advocating unlimited freedom of speech. Where does the boundary lie?
"The struggle against certain ideas must be made by confronting them with
other ideas."
Including the glorification of Hitler, or Stalin? Do you consider that
acceptable?
"There are people who do this. They should be allowed to speak and they shou
ld be contended with. I do not see any danger of a conference being held in
Paris where Hitler or Stalin supporters would gather. Today, there are
Trotskyites and Islamists. They also must be allowed freedom of expression.
If their expression is confined to words, it should not be restricted.
However, no mercy should be shown toward underground terrorist activity."
Did the European Union err when it imposed sanctions on Haider's Freedom
Party?
"Yes. The Austrians have a nationalist reflex and this did more to
strengthen it than anything else."
So would you like the EU to impose sanctions on your party?
"I won't ask them to do so; their demonization of me is sufficient."
Did your experience in the European Parliament change your views on Europe
and its process of unification?
"I insist that, even today, a nation should have the right to defend its
identity, its security, its freedom and the welfare of its citizens. I do
not agree that we ought to strip ourselves of our independence for the sake
of a supranational organization, whose future character is not clear to me."
How do you feel about the EU's enlargement process?
"Now they're even talking about Turkey's entry into the EU, and I ask, `What
does Asiatic Turkey have to do with Europe?' Having it join the EU is an
American interest and not a European interest. As a rule, I support a
`Europe of Nations.' In other words, a loose confederation of sovereign
states with a common cultural denominator."
When you open your wallet today, you have to pay with euros. What does that
do to you?
"It hurts. I call the euro `the currency of occupation'; it's the currency
of the European Bank, of Frankfurt [seat of the European Bank]. It doesn't
express anything for me. The franc, on the other hand, is bound to our
national and historic identity. The loss of our monetary independence will
lead to the loss of our budgetary independence, and then to our political
independence as well."
You talk about "the currency of Frankfurt." Are you concerned about the
developments in French-German relations?
"We mustn't delude ourselves. Europe is already `German.' Germany is the
geopolitical center of Europe. It is the largest country on the continent,
demographically and economically, and its influence will only grow after the
Eastern European countries are added to the EU, since they are essentially
the German hinterland."
Is the federalization of Europe a realistic possibility?
"I believe that is the direction in which we are heading. It is happening
faster and faster. Now they're saying that, as we already have the euro, we
should also establish a (European) government. And so we see people - like
Chirac, who 10 years ago was an opponent of Europe - proposing that Europe
should have an elected president, something that is of course contrary to
the French constitution, of which he (Chirac) is supposed to be the
defender."
In other words, you acknowledge that your camp, the nationalist camp, has
been defeated on the matter of Europe?
"Certainly. It's abundantly clear that the patriotic camp lost and continues
to lose. But this doesn't mean that it will always be this way."
Le Pen sees himself making it to the second round of the elections. That is
what he says in public, at least. According to his rosy scenario, he will
win 19 percent in the first round, surpassing Socialist Prime Minister
Lionel Jospin (who will take 18 percent) and then, on May 5, run against
Chirac (whom he predicts will get 22 percent in the first round). Most
analysts are not ready to take this possibility seriously. Le Pen is too
old, some say. He hasn't successfully reinvented himself, he's run out of
steam - These are some of the explanations now being offered. Others, like
Theo Klein for instance, warn that Le Pen is still "potentially" dangerous:
"There are enough French people who wish to protest and find the National
Front a convenient vehicle for expressing their protest. Keep in mind that
at least 50 percent of the voters have yet to decide whom they're going to
vote for."
Taguieff explains that any Le Pen success in the presidential elections
would be especially dangerous because it would enable his party to take
advantage of the momentum in the runup to the parliamentary elections
scheduled for June.
Many believe that the current election campaign will be Le Pen's last. The
National Front is considered a party without a political elite. Le Pen has
always made sure to keep top members of his party from rising any higher; he
has got rid of any charismatic and threatening figures, and anyone who
seemed likely to emerge as his successor. For this reason, the prevailing
assessment is that his retirement will spell the end of the National Front.
Le Pen begs to differ: "The cemeteries are full of indispensible people. My
central position in the movement derives from the fact that I founded it and
led it to important achievements. But when I am compelled to retire, someone
else will replace me. When this happens, the press will probably publish a
few long articles about my life, but three weeks later, no one will pay any
attention to me, except perhaps my personal friends who will raise a toast
on my birthday."
JEAN-MARIE Le Pen, 73, was born in the port city of Trinite-sur-Mer, in the
Bretagne province, on June 20, 1928. When he was 14, his father, a
fisherman, was killed when his ship hit a mine that had been planted by the
Germans. In 1949, he was elected president of the radical right-wing student
union at the University of Paris law school, where he got his degree. In
1954, he enlisted in the paratroops and was sent to serve in Indochina. In
1955, he was discharged and joined Pierre Poujade's populist movement. At
age 28, Le Pen became the youngest member of parliament in France's history.
He reenlisted in the army the same year, participated in the Suez campaign
and was subsequently sent to Algeria.
In 1972, he founded the National Front. The first time he ran for president,
in 1974, he got less than 1 percent of the vote. In 1988, his support leapt
to 14.4 percent, and in 1995, it went up to 15.2 percent. He has also been a
member of the European Parliament since 1984.
He is married to Jany (his second wife) and the father of three daughters
from his first wife, Pierrette.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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"I hope that at the end of this questionnaire, they won't put me before a
firing squad," jokes Jean-Marie Le Pen, after he consents to "risk it" and
play the association game.
The French Revolution - "A bloody calamity for the French people. This
revolution spawned two dreadful bastards: Nazism and communism."
Socialism - "Today's socialist parties are bourgeois parties whose stance is
the same as the declared stance of the centrist parties in the past. If
that's the case, then why not socialism? Still, I am not a socialist."
The Church - "I don't visit it often enough. That's what my late mother
would certainly think."
Racism - "I am not a racist. I do not understand the theory of the
superiority of the races at all, but there is a difference between the
races: Black is not white and white is not Japanese. That doesn't mean one
race or another should be idealized."
Xenophobia - "I am not a xenophobe. I am a Francophile."
French culture - "I believe in it. I think that France fulfills a unique
cultural role in the world and that the French language greatly enriches
world culture."
European unification - "I am totally against it."
The death penalty - "I am in favor."
The skullcap - "The skullcap that Catholic priests wear? I don't have
anything against the skullcap. It's a personal choice."
The Muslim veil - "It protects us from ugly women."
The Dreyfus Affair - "Dreyfus was exonerated and that concluded the affair.
We should remember that among those who sided with Dreyfus at the time were
people from the right, and that some from the left were among his
opponents." Auschwitz - "A concentration camp that symbolizes the
persecution of the Jews."
The gas chambers - "A method of extermination that also became a symbol of
that persecution."
Israel - "An extraordinary challenge in the world history of a people that
is trying to reconquer its homeland."
Zionism - "The movement that transformed the persistent aspiration of the
Jewish people in exile into a practical theory, and realized it."
De Gaulle - "A controversial personality, but the figure of 20th-century
French history."
A non-Christian president in France - "I am against it. I believe the
president should belong to the religion and culture of the majority of the
citizens."
Colonialism - "It had a positive influence on the development of the
populations that were subject to its authority. Of course, one could argue
at length about whether these populations are really happier in jeans and
tennis shoes than running barefoot in the wild. I have no answer to that."
Zinadine Zidane (the French soccer star, who is a Muslim of Algerian
background) - "A charming young man, a great player. Personally, I like
him."
Anne Sinclair (the Jewish television star who sued Le Pen for calling her "a
juicy kosher butcher," and won) - "My personal nemesis (He laughs). I never
understood why she was persecuting me. I think she got me mixed up with
someone else (more laughter). She always thought that I was the one using
wordplay to make a joke at her expense. But it wasn't me, it was someone
else."
Haider - "A brilliant opportunist who used his talents to appropriate
Austrian nationalism, and thereby gained a big political achievement,
without deriving any direct benefit from it."
Joan of Arc - "My favorite statesman (He uses the masculine formulation)."
Thatcher - "I admire her very much. `A real man,' like Golda Meir."
Collaborators with Hitler - "France was an occupied country. There were two
kinds of collaborators: those who were forced by the Nazis to collaborate
and those who viewed Hitler as the realization of anti-communist socialism.
The latter were almost all leftists, by the way."
Mitterrand - "A talented statesman. He was no more of a socialist than I am,
but he knew how to use the slogan of socialism for his own good, almost like
Jacques Chirac."
George Bush - "A fellow who is lucky to have had a father."
Women - "I'm in favor."
welsh witch
"dnm" <f0k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:aacug1$947v4$1...@ID-115737.news.dfncis.de...
******************************
One thing I noticed first and foremost...The description of his Le
Penn's home...How absolutely lovely it sounds....It contrasts vividly
wih the portrait of Neil Kinnock and his wife Glenys inveiled in the
papers this morning.
They must make loads of dosh on the gravy train they certainly don't
spend it on their surroundings. Their room looks bare, cold much
poisonous looking green in evidence and so uncomfortable! He's
sitting on a miserable looking chair and she's sitting on a coffee
table covered with what looks like cold tiles rhymes with what may be
the result of that too!
If you ask me all the condemnation of Le Penn is another type culture
misunderstanding as the Greeks couldn't understand the balmy plane
spotters!
I think le Penn has a large sense of humour a lot black of course but
he likes to "faittes marcher" as my French friends say!
I am certain he thought he was being funny when he said he'd put the
asylum seekers on a train to Tony Blair! Actually it is what he, Tony
Blair
http://jewishworldreview.com/
http://www.walk-wales.org.uk/minette.htm deserves all in his own
house!
Jon°
asylum seekers on a train to Tony Blair!"
There are well authenticated reports that he intends to send them first
class.
"welsh witch" <webmi...@nospam.com> wrote in message