Should we teach vegitarian cookery in schools?

[Andy Wainwright]

A lower meat consumption has a few advantages. Less land is required to
grow food as well as the animal welfare issue.

I'm a failed veggie- put simply my cookery skills weren't up to
providing a meat free balanced diet that provided me with sufficent
energy etc.

Better cooking skills are essential to provide that balanced diet with
less meat. Reducing meat consumption is a possible way of solving the
food crisis with an increasing gloabl population, but skills are needed
for that to happen. For example, most people could get by on meat once
or twice a week, for the nutritional content and enjoyment, indeed some
manage with none at all.

If we encouraged vegitarianism in home economics, maybe the meat that
was left could be better treated when alive, hence less cruelty and
better productive use of land.

Any opinion?

[Vidcapper]

I'm staying an omnivore.
--
Regards,

Paul Hyett

[Basil Jet]

On 2013\05\06 08:12, Vidcapper wrote:
>
> I'm staying an omnivore.

More vegetarians is a great benefit to society, though,
because it's more fun to eat meat while they're watching you.

[JNugent]

On 06/05/2013 02:14, Andy Wainwright wrote:

> A lower meat consumption has a few advantages. Less land is required to
> grow food as well as the animal welfare issue.

It's cheaper as well.

> I'm a failed veggie- put simply my cookery skills weren't up to
> providing a meat free balanced diet that provided me with sufficent
> energy etc.

You don't have to swear off meat to enjoy vegetarian dishes. I am an
omnivore but often eat dishes which would satisfy a vegan, for the
simple reason that the way they are prepared, they taste great.

> Better cooking skills are essential to provide that balanced diet with
> less meat. Reducing meat consumption is a possible way of solving the
> food crisis

What "food crisis"?

> with an increasing gloabl population, but skills are needed
> for that to happen. For example, most people could get by on meat once
> or twice a week, for the nutritional content and enjoyment, indeed some
> manage with none at all.

> If we encouraged vegitarianism in home economics, maybe the meat that
> was left could be better treated when alive, hence less cruelty and
> better productive use of land.

> Any opinion?

Teachers should keep their noses out of politics.

Is that the sort of thing you meant?

[Norman Wells]

Andy Wainwright wrote:

> I'm a failed veggie- put simply my cookery skills weren't up to
> providing a meat free balanced diet that provided me with sufficent
> energy etc.
>
> Better cooking skills are essential to provide that balanced diet with
> less meat.

It's not the cooking that provides a balanced diet, it's the food.

[pensive hamster]

Huh? That's a bit like saying: 'It's not the food that provides a
balanced diet, it's the digestive process'.

A balanced diet is the result of a number of processes and factors.
Selection of ingredients is a part of cooking skills, along with other
factors.

[Andy Wainwright]

Humans are certainly "designed" as omnivores- we have the teeth for example.

It's a hard one though if you like your food- including good meat- but
love animals. TV Chef HFW suggested that meat eaters could actually help
animal welfare by choosing well-treated animals to eat and making better
use of them such as eating offal and so forth- and he has a point.

[AC]

I wouldn't encourage or favour it, but it should be part of the
curriculum. Kids should learn that some vegie meals are edible and
sometimes even nice.

One thing I would point out is that veggie is often lazy. You don't have
to cook vegetables enough to make them not poison you. Meat you need to
worry about storage and cooking. Vegetables are easy and pretty much
worry free. So, if you are lazy and cant be arsed with dates and
cooking, veggie stuff is an easy out.


--
AC

[Andy Wainwright]

Interesting. I like food, and it's an issue with me finding a veggie
option that isn't bland and boring. Linda McCartney's soya pies are
actually very nice, I prefer them to real meat ones, but weigh in at
about three times the price of Iceland horse (or whatever) ones.

I still reckon it's harder to go vegitarian if you want something tasty
and nutritious. It's possible, but more imagination is needed in the
dishes.

[JNugent]

On 06/05/2013 14:03, pensive hamster wrote:

> On May 6, 9:02 am, "Norman Wells" <h...@unseen.ac.am> wrote:
>> Andy Wainwright wrote:

>>> I'm a failed veggie- put simply my cookery skills weren't up to
>>> providing a meat free balanced diet that provided me with sufficent
>>> energy etc.
>
>>> Better cooking skills are essential to provide that balanced diet with
>>> less meat.
>
>> It's not the cooking that provides a balanced diet, it's the food.
>
> Huh? That's a bit like saying: 'It's not the food that provides a
> balanced diet, it's the digestive process'.

Only a tiny bit like saying that.

"Diet" is a term used to describe the contents of what one eats, not the
process by which one digests it.

> A balanced diet is the result of a number of processes and factors.
> Selection of ingredients is a part of cooking skills, along with other
> factors.

Apart from selection of ingredients and processing them so as to
preserve their nutritional value (and, one supposes, relative
quantities), what are those other factors?

[Vidcapper]

Or horse? :p

--
Regards,

Paul Hyett

[Norman Wells]

Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article
> <9f1bdae8-c28c-4d4f...@a6g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,

> pensive hamster <pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On May 6, 9:02 am, "Norman Wells" <h...@unseen.ac.am> wrote:
>>> Andy Wainwright wrote:
>>>> I'm a failed veggie- put simply my cookery skills weren't up to
>>>> providing a meat free balanced diet that provided me with sufficent
>>>> energy etc.
>>>
>>>> Better cooking skills are essential to provide that balanced diet
>>>> with less meat.
>>>
>>> It's not the cooking that provides a balanced diet, it's the food.
>>
>> Huh? That's a bit like saying: 'It's not the food that provides a
>> balanced diet, it's the digestive process'.
>

> Recent work indicates cooking is part of a balanced diet. Cooking
> effectively pre-digests food so that humans can extract more
> nutrition with a shorter alimentary canal. It also means more
> calories to being smart instead of churning chyme.

What foods, apart from grass, can you think of that cannot be digested
without cooking?

And if your diet is 'balanced' why would you need to eat something
fortified with B12 or take tablets or get injections every 3 months?

[Norman Wells]

Andy Wainwright wrote:

> It's a hard one though if you like your food- including good meat- but
> love animals. TV Chef HFW suggested that meat eaters could actually
> help animal welfare by choosing well-treated animals to eat and
> making better use of them such as eating offal and so forth- and he
> has a point.

We do make good use of them. What on earth does he think happens to the
offal and so forth?

And if he thinks we should be eating more of the animal than we do, why
is he so against commercially produced sausages, burgers and pies?

[JNugent]

Nowt wrong with horse as long as it's honestly labelled. I have seen it
on open sale in France and italy, but cannot say that I have eaten it.

Nowt wrong with offal either. I can eat a nice piece of pig's liver now
and then. Or lamb's kidneys. And roast stuffed sheep hearts are, as far
as I am concerned, a delicacy.

[pensive hamster]

On May 6, 4:20 pm, JNugent <jennings...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On 06/05/2013 14:03, pensive hamster wrote:

[...]

> > A balanced diet is the result of a number of processes and factors.
> > Selection of ingredients is a part of cooking skills, along with other
> > factors.
>
> Apart from selection of ingredients and processing them so as to
> preserve their nutritional value (and, one supposes, relative
> quantities), what are those other factors?

Knowledge, availability, and time (and possibly others I haven't
thought of).

Knowledge of the ingredients and nutritional components necessary for
a balanced diet.

Availabilty of those ingredients. There is the concept of food
poverty:
http://www.sustainweb.org/foodaccess/what_is_food_poverty/
In some areas, there are outlets selling fast food, but none selling
fresh fruit and vegetables (unless you have a car and can go further
afield).

Time - a harassed single mum in a tower block, or even a busy office
worker, may not have the time or inclination to prepare a salad
nicoise say, so its burger and chips again.

In days of yore, families would sit down together for an evening meal,
and dad would grow veggies in the allotment. Apparently nowadays there
are children who don't realise milk comes from a cow. They have never
even seen a cow. So that factor might come under knowledge, or
possibly as another factor - habituation (to eating proper meals and a
balanced diet).

And that is before even considering aesthetic factors - the culinary
skills necessary to preparing varied and appetising food, and the
ability to make 'healthy' food tempting and tasty as well.

[JNugent]

On 06/05/2013 18:19, pensive hamster wrote:

> On May 6, 4:20 pm, JNugent <jennings...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> On 06/05/2013 14:03, pensive hamster wrote:
> [...]
>>> A balanced diet is the result of a number of processes and factors.
>>> Selection of ingredients is a part of cooking skills, along with other
>>> factors.
>>
>> Apart from selection of ingredients and processing them so as to
>> preserve their nutritional value (and, one supposes, relative
>> quantities), what are those other factors?

> Knowledge, availability, and time (and possibly others I haven't
> thought of).
> Knowledge of the ingredients and nutritional components necessary for
> a balanced diet.

That's just another way of saying "selection".

> Availabilty of those ingredients. There is the concept of food
> poverty:
> http://www.sustainweb.org/foodaccess/what_is_food_poverty/
> In some areas, there are outlets selling fast food, but none selling
> fresh fruit and vegetables (unless you have a car and can go further
> afield).

A bit far-fetched.

> Time - a harassed single mum in a tower block, or even a busy office
> worker, may not have the time or inclination to prepare a salad
> nicoise say, so its burger and chips again.

And that's always someone else's fault, of course.

> In days of yore, families would sit down together for an evening meal,
> and dad would grow veggies in the allotment. Apparently nowadays there
> are children who don't realise milk comes from a cow. They have never
> even seen a cow. So that factor might come under knowledge, or
> possibly as another factor - habituation (to eating proper meals and a
> balanced diet).
>
> And that is before even considering aesthetic factors - the culinary
> skills necessary to preparing varied and appetising food, and the
> ability to make 'healthy' food tempting and tasty as well.

And that's just another way of saying "processing".

[pensive hamster]

On May 6, 7:07 pm, JNugent <jennings...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On 06/05/2013 18:19, pensive hamster wrote:

[...]

> > And that is before even considering aesthetic factors - the culinary
> > skills necessary to preparing varied and appetising food, and the
> > ability to make 'healthy' food tempting and tasty as well.
>
> And that's just another way of saying "processing".

As in "Cordon Bleu processing" ...?

[Mrcheerful]

Andy Wainwright wrote:
> A lower meat consumption has a few advantages. Less land is required
> to grow food as well as the animal welfare issue.
>
> I'm a failed veggie- put simply my cookery skills weren't up to
> providing a meat free balanced diet that provided me with sufficent
> energy etc.

IIUC Humans evolved with a diet of meat, fish, vegetables, fruit, nuts,
berries and anything else they could find. But they did not evolve to be
able to manage long term on a diet without meat. It takes millions of years
to change by evolution the basic diet, we are struggling with our diet
already due to the introduction about ten thousand years ago of grain, the
last 150 years or so has really hurt humans with the mass use of processed
foods made in factories. Move over to natural whole foods and your health
will improve, but try to leave out all meat and your health will suffer.

[JNugent]

If only, eh?

Still... I suppose that for some harassed "single mum" in a tower block
(as the model appears to be), if you can't prepare the family meal to
Gordon Blue standards, you might just well make it Tesco Value burger
and frozen chips again.

[pensive hamster]

Nah, Waitrose.

http://www.waitrose.com/shop/ProductView-10317-10001-134075-Heston+from+Waitrose+2+Ultimate+Beef+Burgers

Heston from Waitrose, 2 Ultimate Beef Burgers 250g £5.29

"My extensive experiments have shown that the ultimate burger is made
with a blend of three different cuts of meat minced in such a way that
the strands of mince lie in the same direction before slicing into
burgers."

[White Spirit]

On 06/05/13 02:14, Andy Wainwright wrote:

> I'm a failed veggie- put simply my cookery skills weren't up to
> providing a meat free balanced diet that provided me with sufficent
> energy etc.

What you mean is, you were too lazy to cook properly.

[White Spirit]

On 06/05/13 17:21, Norman Wells wrote:

> And if your diet is 'balanced' why would you need to eat something
> fortified with B12 or take tablets or get injections every 3 months?

None of the vegetarians and vegans I know have to do any of those
things, you ignorant cockslime.

[Norman Wells]

I was merely quoting one person here who has not eaten meat for 20
years, which I would guess classes him as a vegetarian.

This was his recommendation:

"Eat Food fortified with B12 or take tablets or get injections every 3
months".

Since you know so much about it, perhaps you'd answer the point. Why
would you need to do that if your diet is 'balanced'?

[White Spirit]

On 06/05/13 20:52, Norman Wells wrote:

> I was merely quoting one person here who has not eaten meat for 20
> years, which I would guess classes him as a vegetarian.

> This was his recommendation:

> "Eat Food fortified with B12 or take tablets or get injections every 3
> months".

> Since you know so much about it, perhaps you'd answer the point. Why
> would you need to do that if your diet is 'balanced'?

You wouldn't.

[Nightjar]

On 06/05/2013 02:14, Andy Wainwright wrote:
> A lower meat consumption has a few advantages. Less land is required to

> grow food...

Sheep, goats and the world's most widely eaten meat, chicken, can all be
raised on land you can't use for crops.

...

> I'm a failed veggie- put simply my cookery skills weren't up to
> providing a meat free balanced diet that provided me with sufficent

> energy etc....

So, buy a decent cookery book.

Colin Bignell

[Norman Wells]

Well, that's strange, because he's not the only one here who's had

problems. Another wrote:

" I'm a failed veggie- put simply my cookery skills weren't up to
providing a meat free balanced diet that provided me with sufficent
energy etc."

Perhaps you'd like to explain that?

You see, it's well-documented that if you don't eat meat, dairy, or
eggs, there's no proven way to get vitamin B12 without supplementing,
nor certain essential amino acids needed for the production of the
proteins the body requires.

This knowledge is a certain indicator that a vegan or strict vegetarian
diet is not natural, nor balanced.

[Bill]

Something like 40% of the population of India is vegetarian, they
don't either...

[White Spirit]

On 06/05/13 22:03, Norman Wells wrote:

> White Spirit wrote:

>>> Since you know so much about it, perhaps you'd answer the point. Why
>>> would you need to do that if your diet is 'balanced'?

>> You wouldn't.

> Well, that's strange, because he's not the only one here who's had
> problems. Another wrote:

> " I'm a failed veggie- put simply my cookery skills weren't up to
> providing a meat free balanced diet that provided me with sufficent
> energy etc."

> Perhaps you'd like to explain that?

He explained it himself - his cookery skills were lacking. Bear in mind
that you're also talking about a drug addict who has a methadone
prescription so I would be careful about accepting his testimony
regarding having energy to do things.

> You see, it's well-documented that if you don't eat meat, dairy, or
> eggs, there's no proven way to get vitamin B12 without supplementing,
> nor certain essential amino acids needed for the production of the
> proteins the body requires.

> This knowledge is a certain indicator that a vegan or strict vegetarian
> diet is not natural, nor balanced.

Your use of 'natural' is a value judgement. It is human nature to make
choices and that includes diet. As for the argument about B12 and amino
acids, millions of people in India are very much alive and well, as Bill
pointed out.

[Andy Wainwright]

True.

[Vidcapper]

Maybe they don't *have* to, but do they choose to? :)

In any case, a vegetarian diet always looks boring, what with the lack
of variety...


--
Regards,

Paul Hyett

[Vidcapper]

On 06/05/2013 22:03, Norman Wells wrote:

>
> You see, it's well-documented that if you don't eat meat, dairy, or
> eggs, there's no proven way to get vitamin B12 without supplementing,
> nor certain essential amino acids needed for the production of the
> proteins the body requires.
>
> This knowledge is a certain indicator that a vegan or strict vegetarian
> diet is not natural, nor balanced.
>
>

But what *is* a balanced diet? Lions seem to manage OK on just meat, and
cattle on just grass...

--
Regards,

Paul Hyett

[Roger Dewhurst]

On May 6, 1:14 pm, Andy Wainwright

<andrewrichardwainwri...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> A lower meat consumption has a few advantages. Less land is required to

> grow food as well as the animal welfare issue.
>

> I'm a failed veggie- put simply my cookery skills weren't up to
> providing a meat free balanced diet that provided me with sufficent
> energy etc.
>

> Better cooking skills are essential to provide that balanced diet with
> less meat. Reducing meat consumption is a possible way of solving the
> food crisis with an increasing gloabl population, but skills are needed
> for that to happen. For example, most people could get by on meat once
> or twice a week, for the nutritional content and enjoyment, indeed some
> manage with none at all.
>
> If we encouraged vegitarianism in home economics, maybe the meat that
> was left could be better treated when alive, hence less cruelty and
> better productive use of land.
>
> Any opinion?

We evolved as omnivores. It is best to stay that way. Vegetarians
are usually wimps anyway.

[AlanG]

On Mon, 06 May 2013 20:37:42 +0100, White Spirit
<wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12_deficiency
"The UK Vegan Society, the Vegetarian Resource Group, and the
Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, among others, recommend
that vegans either consistently eat B12-fortified foods or take a
daily or weekly B12 supplement to meet the recommended
intake.[58][59][68]

It is important for vegans, who possess limited food sources of B12,
and anyone else wishing to obtain B12 from food sources other than
animals, to consume foods that contain little or no pseudovitamin-B12
and are high in biologically active B12. However, there have been no
significant human trials of sufficient size to demonstrate enzymatic
activity of B12 from nonbacterial sources, such as Chlorella and
edible sea algae (seaweeds, such as lavers), although chemically some
of these sources have been reported to contain B12 that seems
chemically identical to active vitamin.[22][23] However, among these
sources, only fresh sea algea such as Susabi-nori (Porphyra
yezoensis)[25][26] have been reported to demonstrated vitamin B12
activity in B12 deficient rats. This has yet to be demonstrated for
Chlorella, and no study in rats of any algal B12 source has yet to be
confirmed by a second independent study. The possibility of
algae-derived active forms of B12 presently remains an active topic of
research, with no results that have yet reached consensus in the
nutritional community."

[Andy Walker]

On 07/05/13 06:53, Vidcapper wrote:
> But what *is* a balanced diet? Lions seem to manage OK on just meat,
> and cattle on just grass...

How many of them live past 70? Even 40? How many Nobel
prizes have they won between them? Chart-topping hits? Winning
goals at Wembley? I'll give you that the Lions are quite decent
at rugger.

--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.

[R. Mark Clayton]

Yes.

"Andy Wainwright" <andrewricha...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:km6vvh$k49$1...@dont-email.me...

[pensive hamster]

Lions seem to get quite a lot of film work though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Films_about_lions
'The following 15 pages are in this category ...'

[Jake]

"White Spirit" <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote in message
news:km99u7$7ko$1...@dont-email.me...

I think you will find these are not vegans, but lacto-ovo vegetarians, i.e.
they consume dairy - e.g Jainism

It is a matter of fact that the vegan lifestyle only became possible with
the recent (on the human evolutionary timescale) scientific advances in
artificial dietary supplements, as evidenced by the lack of any purely vegan
societies in the historical record.

[Jake]

"Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e62go8prg7ubpfp2j...@4ax.com...

Lacto-ovo vegetarians like these are able to source B12 from dairy products.

I believe Norman is referring to raw vegetarianism, also known as veganism,
which means consumption of any animal products are forbidden, thus ruling
out the eggs and milk comprising the B12 source in these Indian diets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacto-vegetarianism

[ldxdx]

dangers of extreme (or radical change of diet)

this guy (who played the big bloke 'john coffey' in the green mile)

When Duncan was cast as the Kingpin in 2002,[10] he faced the dual
challenge of portraying a typically white character[11][12] and having to
gain 40 pounds to fit the character's large physique. In July 2006,
Duncan showed interest in returning for the role of the Kingpin, but
stated that he would not be willing to regain the weight that he had lost.
[13] In 2009, he stopped eating meat and later appeared in a PETA ad
campaign, touting the health benefits and his increased strength from a
vegetarian diet.[14][15]

Michael Clarke Duncan (December 10, 1957 – September 3, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Clarke_Duncan

[White Spirit]

On 07/05/13 17:49, Jake wrote:

> It is a matter of fact that the vegan lifestyle only became possible with
> the recent (on the human evolutionary timescale) scientific advances in
> artificial dietary supplements,

Then explain to me why I and other vegans I know who don't use such
supplements are alive and perfectly healthy.

> as evidenced by the lack of any purely vegan
> societies in the historical record.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In fact, there have
been remains of 'bog people' that when examined showed that they had
eaten only plant material and grains. The assumption made is that they
ate meat rarely but there is no evidence either way so it is hardly a
sound basis for pontification on your part.

[Jake]

"White Spirit" <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote in message

news:kmbli3$vu$1...@dont-email.me...

I take it that by snipping out the first half of my post that you agree that
the reason millions of people in India do without B12 supplements in their
diet is because they are consuming animal products. They are eating a diet
rich in dairy products that provide the necessary B12. However these
products are not acceptable to vegans, so vegans must take supplements.

There is evidence of strict no-harm lacto-ovo vegetarian societies enduring
their diets throughout history, and these are still in existence today.
Unlike these, there are no enduring vegan societies or indeed any evidence
of such. You ignore other plausible conclusions that may be drawn when
finding remains of humans who only ate plant materials.

Before the advent of supplements, there may well have been attempts at raw
veganism, short lived as they must have been. Indeed there have been many
studies on the subject. You might be interested in much of the original
research work on anaemia by Thomas Addison in the late 19th century.

You don't provide any details about exactly what you eat on a daily basis,
so I can't comment, apart from saying that you will nevertheless be aware
that all the mainstream vegan societies strongly advise their adherants to
supplement their diets with B12, as does every respected nutrional
authority. Maybe you should ask them why would they do that if it wasn't
necessary?

In any case, I'd rather rely on peer reviewed scientific research and
dietary advice from nutritionists and vegan societies than personal
anecdotes.

[White Spirit]

On 07/05/13 23:36, Jake wrote:

> "White Spirit" <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:kmbli3$vu$1...@dont-email.me...

>> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In fact, there have been
>> remains of 'bog people' that when examined showed that they had eaten only
>> plant material and grains. The assumption made is that they ate meat
>> rarely but there is no evidence either way so it is hardly a sound basis
>> for pontification on your part.

> I take it that by snipping out the first half of my post that you agree that
> the reason millions of people in India do without B12 supplements in their
> diet is because they are consuming animal products.

You can take it any way you please - don't stop on my account.

> They are eating a diet
> rich in dairy products that provide the necessary B12. However these
> products are not acceptable to vegans, so vegans must take supplements.

I prefer reingesting cecotrope faeces, but my dinner guests always seem
to take offense at my table manners.

> There is evidence of strict no-harm lacto-ovo vegetarian societies enduring
> their diets throughout history, and these are still in existence today.
> Unlike these, there are no enduring vegan societies or indeed any evidence
> of such. You ignore other plausible conclusions that may be drawn when
> finding remains of humans who only ate plant materials.

If you read what I wrote properly, you will see that I wasn't ignoring
anything.

> Before the advent of supplements, there may well have been attempts at raw
> veganism, short lived as they must have been. Indeed there have been many
> studies on the subject. You might be interested in much of the original
> research work on anaemia by Thomas Addison in the late 19th century.

I didn't specifically mention raw veganism.

> You don't provide any details about exactly what you eat on a daily basis,
> so I can't comment, apart from saying that you will nevertheless be aware
> that all the mainstream vegan societies strongly advise their adherants to
> supplement their diets with B12, as does every respected nutrional
> authority. Maybe you should ask them why would they do that if it wasn't
> necessary?

Obviously they don't drink enough stout.

> In any case, I'd rather rely on peer reviewed scientific research and
> dietary advice from nutritionists and vegan societies than personal
> anecdotes.

Be my guest but it appears to me that many of them are hedging their
bets while the usual gaggle of Usenet hyenas will take any opportunity
to regurgitate the usual FUD along with typical hackneyed remarks.