Is a Degree useless
arealman
with a Degree because generally, they had been found to be useless.
I have to say this tends to fit in with my own experience. I only ever
employed one person with a degree who was actually any good. Granted
sometimes their highly specialised knowledge might be useful but overall
performance was invariably lacking to say the very least.
Given a completely free hand, I would tend to operate on the same basis as
the cited Company.
Anyone else found similar.
arealman
TOa2671644
>From: "arealman" Ma...@Playboy.com
>Date: 28.06.01 19:19 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit
>Message-id: <9hfovj$ojm$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>
>
>Today I heard about a Company who had a firm policy never to employ anyone
>with a Degree because generally, they had been found to be useless.
>
or almost no, importance.
(http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html has more).
peter
<Ma...@Playboy.com> stated: -
Only to the extent which a degree means the owner passed exams to get it
- there is no guarantee he or she will be able to perform or think
logically or understand how the world works -
Of my sister's three children two have degrees and one hasn't - the one
who hasn't earns twice as much as the other two but all three earn over
35,000 a year and have highly responsible and high pressure jobs in
London.
A degree is a beginning but I would not take anyone who has a degree and
assume they know anything about any subject other than the one they took
for the degree. Also I would examine a person's work record with a lot
more attention than I would his academic record.
>
>
>arealman
>
>
--
peter
rifleman1
"arealman" <A graduate with a degree is like a lighthouse in a desert,
brilliant but utterly useless.
Alexskidot
vocationally or academically is rubbished as a matter of course.
How often do you hear people saying that Very intelligent but no commonsense?
Yet when you ask these people to define commonsense they have a difficult time
articulating a reasonable answer.
We have a situation in the UK where there is a skill shortage. Yet when highly
skilled people turn up at interview they are turned away simply because they
are deemed to bright!
I would laugh if it was not so tragic. We have a managerial base that has
evolved through such policy in British business. It is therefore no surprise
that a large proportion of those that dictate recruitment policy are uneducated
- either from a vocational or academic viewpoint that they see themselves
somehow better qualified to do a job that some one who has spent perhaps 6
years formal training plus relevant work experience.
Ask any one of these people who believe degrees etc are useless if they would
prefer to see a doctor who is qualified or one who is not.
We have rank hypocracy regarding education and vocation training in this
country. It all stems back to the powerfull elites desire not to educate the
masses to any great extent.
Go to any school where the underpriveledged are taught. You will hear talk
along the same lines.
"Don't like that brainy git".
"He's dead boring, does his homework at night"
I can name many in my own area of work who have been victimised by not only
being formally qualified but also have many years professional experience. The
sad fact is, due to the Thatcher years it created a situation where not only
the education system failed but also real vocational training such as formal
apprenticeships.
The result? A poor quality under educated workforce who believe education and
training is bad for them. Which includes - unfortunately - Recruiters.
I have heard a number of these actually suggesting that they would never
consider employing anyone who as achieved a 1st. Incredible but true.
Alex
Xpucmo
"arealman" <Ma...@Playboy.com> wrote in message
news:9hfovj$ojm$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk...
it just opens doors that remain shut for those without.
rifleman1
>
> We have a situation in the UK where there is a skill shortage. Yet when
highly
> skilled people turn up at interview they are turned away simply because
they
> are deemed to bright!
Skill and craft shortage definately, we have far two many graduates with no
experience of life or the real world taking over positions of
responsibilities or spouting off new trendy social engineering theories and
fucking everything up.I had well educated graduates attached to my army unit
and bright as they were they could not do the job and would have killed
themselves in no time at all, the same happened when I was working for B & Q
they would give me college grads full of bright ideas who would immeadiatly
screw up everything they came in contact with. Give me aprentices with a bit
of commonsense any day over some dozy twit fresh out of uni.
krasus
--
Krasus the wise.
---------------------------
rifleman1 <rifl...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:dqM_6.28582$QM1.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
krasus
> >Subject: Is a Degree useless
> >From: "arealman" Ma...@Playboy.com
> >Date: 28.06.01 19:19 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit
> >Message-id: <9hfovj$ojm$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>
> >
> >Today I heard about a Company who had a firm policy never to employ
anyone
> >with a Degree because generally, they had been found to be useless.
> >I have to say this tends to fit in with my own experience. I only ever
> >employed one person with a degree who was actually any good. Granted
> >sometimes their highly specialised knowledge might be useful but overall
> >performance was invariably lacking to say the very least.
> > Given a completely free hand, I would tend to operate on the same basis
as
> >the cited Company.
> >Anyone else found similar.
> >arealman
It tends to depend on the type of degree AND often the university they got
it from. Degrees in many subjects don't give people an easily reconizable
job skill. Knowing what the hell chaucer is talking about for example
doesn't really help someone sell stuff. A degree in history doesn't really
help someone with riflemans job - cleaning chemicle tiolets out. But
someone with a degree in physics could very well get a job in technical
design - so basically its courses for horses - if you dont do the right one,
its not going to do you much good.
Also, many of the old 'polytechniques' that pass themselves off as
Universities are bloody useless and the quality of education is very low -
ie about the same level as American education. These places get a
reputation and employeers may well stay away from them. I know some local
employeers have done such a thing for a particular school in milton keynes -
Stantonbury Campus. So going to a good University is also important.
Also - you just get asshole employeers who don't like to get shown up by
intelligent people.
rifleman1
A degree in history doesn't really
> help someone with riflemans job - cleaning chemicle tiolets out.
Ah but its honest decent work, something a lower form of life like you would
balk at.
rifleman1
"krasus" <kra...@hehe.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9hhq7n$jkp$1...@uranium.btinternet.com...
> This coming from the brainless wonder
>
both good and bad on this NG, when you only whinge on and on and on like a
stuck record, you sound more like a spoilt school child with every post, go
and listen to your s club 7 cd theres are good boy.
The Technical Manager
> It tends to depend on the type of degree AND often the university they got
> it from. Degrees in many subjects don't give people an easily reconizable
> job skill. Knowing what the hell chaucer is talking about for example
> doesn't really help someone sell stuff. A degree in history doesn't really
> help someone with riflemans job - cleaning chemicle tiolets out. But
> someone with a degree in physics could very well get a job in technical
> design - so basically its courses for horses - if you dont do the right one,
> its not going to do you much good.
One of the problems is that there seem to be too many students studying degrees
that are of no relevance to employers and not enough students studying stuff
which is genuinly useful and leads to careers.
For every electronic engineering applicant this year there were two 10 years
ago. The reverse seems true for art history and English literature.
Alexskidot
qualificatons are obviously no good on their own. Just the same as purely on
the Job experience is not necessarily a good thing either.
If we truly want a first class workforce, then there really is no alternative
to a combination of good education, formal training and on the job experience.
It is a mistake to believe one with the others is any good. Individually they
are all poor substitutes for the combined effects that they bring to gether.
Therefore anyone who turns someone away from a job who has achieved a good
degree is using their own incompetent experience to achieve a a result. The
effect? to create an atmosphere where people start to believe that good
education/training is hardly worthwhile. Something that Thatcher achieved quite
successfully.
lies damned lies and The Sun (who also believes that education is pointless, at
least one of their journalists told me. Her name? Jane Barnes)
Alex
arealman
peter wrote in message ...
>peter
agreed.
arealman
krasus wrote in message <9hhqq7$hr5$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>...
Well I had a graduate in Computer studies who could'nt even mangage a simple
task in SQL. Now you know how many commands there are in SQL to get to grips
with !!!
arealman
Xpucmo wrote in message <9hgasd$a6$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
It does that but it does not make it right.
You cannot pidgeon hole everybody of course but by an large I would keep the
academics in the back room doing whatever it is they are good at, and leave
the management and other aspects of the business to those with proven
ability.
>
arealman
arealman
Alexskidot wrote in message
<20010628190907...@ng-ci1.aol.com>...
>Typically British. Anyone who who takes time to educate themselves either
>vocationally or academically is rubbished as a matter of course.
Now that is not what I said. If you consider yourself to be educated, it's
rather a pity you failed to absorb the top post before launching your
crusade.
>The result? A poor quality under educated workforce who believe education
and
>training is bad for them. Which includes - unfortunately - Recruiters.
Recruiters ? Do Companies still alow a select few to recruit for them. Where
I worked we stopped that a few decades ago and let Managers recruit for
themselves.
>I have heard a number of these actually suggesting that they would never
>consider employing anyone who as achieved a 1st. Incredible but true.
For all you say however I employed many grads. Explain to me why some of our
people with a handful of O levels ran circles around them.
I see you have asked a number of people to define "Common sense" for you.
That does not surprise me.
arealman
>Alex
>
rifleman1
"Alexskidot" <Damn good post, and vety well balanced, its obvious to most
that it requires both academic study and on the job training, otherwise all
we will produce are academic vegetables like Krasus.
rifleman1
krasus
I dont whinge - thats your style, waaah the government took away my guns,
waaah the governments spends my taxes on poor people, waaah i dont like you
you're not white, waaah i dont know what a fact is, waaah id like to admit
im a right wing nazi mother fucker but im a coward. Sad case!
krasus
The Technical Manager <tec...@niobiumfive.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3B3C891C...@niobiumfive.co.uk...
> krasus wrote:
>
> > It tends to depend on the type of degree AND often the university they
got
> > it from. Degrees in many subjects don't give people an easily
reconizable
> > job skill. Knowing what the hell chaucer is talking about for example
> > doesn't really help someone sell stuff. A degree in history doesn't
really
> > help someone with riflemans job - cleaning chemicle tiolets out. But
> > someone with a degree in physics could very well get a job in technical
> > design - so basically its courses for horses - if you dont do the right
one,
> > its not going to do you much good.
> One of the problems is that there seem to be too many students studying
degrees
> that are of no relevance to employers and not enough students studying
stuff
> which is genuinly useful and leads to careers.
Deffinatley. Teachers are partly to blame for this as they give almost no
real guidance to students as to what degree to take. Also, society
constantly says you must go to uni. Finally, there are simply to many
university places on offer and its to easy to get into places. It used to
be a student required excellent grades to go to uni, then it dropped to
average grades and now its below average grades. My step brother was
getting 'university credit' for putting out the chairs for assembly at his
school - how pathetic is that.
> For every electronic engineering applicant this year there were two 10
years
> ago. The reverse seems true for art history and English literature.
Thats because english, history, geography, humanties, social studies and the
like are piss easy. Its just a case of repeating what other people have
said.
rifleman1
"krasus" <>
> Thats because english, history, geography, humanties, social studies and
the
> like are piss easy. Its just a case of repeating what other people have
> said.
>
rifleman1
> I dont whinge - thats your style, waaah the government took away my guns,
No they did not, they took my licence, my guns are stored in Kansas
> waaah the governments spends my taxes on poor people,
Its scroungers i complain about not poor people, I am poor,
waaah i dont like you
> you're not white,
I aint racist, its socialists I hate.
waaah i dont know what a fact is,
Sez he who has been corrected by three other posters in two days
waaah id like to admit
> im a right wing nazi mother fucker
Definately a right winger, but if I am a nazi then you must be a communist
???
but im a coward. Sad case!
Yes you are, you accuse me of cowardise, I have spent three tours of duty in
Belfast in the late 70's and early 80's and have sen members of my regiment
killed, I have spent days in Armagh stalking provos and was scared shitless
cos they were using a 50 cal barratt rifle that could and did kill us from
over a mile away, but I like my colleages got on with it whilst you were
pissing about at school,You say you wish to punch my lights out , on the
internet, without any method of achieving it, and when I point out that you
are behaving like a big baby you throw even more abuse and take a bigger
tantrum.
If you are so hell bent on acting your a shoe size not your age, feel free,
but dont fire shots off about something you know fuck all about.
>
>
Alexskidot
lies damned lies and The Sun
Alex
rifleman1
"Alexskidot" <alexs...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20010629183538...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
> Rifleman, if you are or have been in the armed forces, act with some
dignity.
>
Alexskidot
>that it requires both academic study and on the job training, otherwise all
>we will produce are academic vegetables like Krasus.
>
Don't misunderstand what I have said. Acadamia is not wrong. It is imperative
that "all" have the opportunity to undertake studies. Whether or not their
studies can be 'directly' related to their future work is neither here or
there. 'Indirectly' it will affect their future and this is beyond doubt. It
will affect their ability to lead a successful life.
Success in life is a term that is misused and grossly misunderstood over an
over again. Success is primarily about the way one enjoys life. If that means
achieving fame and fortune - great, achieve it. On the other hand if it means
sacrificing monetary kudos, so what? Provided you have achieved what you set
out to do in life then you will have succeeded anyway.
I have done 1 or two things in my life. Some I look back on and sigh. But
retrospect gets me no where. Forget yesterday, look at tomorrow. Yesterday no
longer exists. I therefore get on with it, and attempt to the best of my
ability to feel good about things.
Unfortunately, the way that we bring kids up and educate them perpetuates the
myth that the past was good, and that we must look upon it as an example to
repeat. This is wrong. It is a human, defeatest stance.
Are those that long for yesterday, so insecure that they cannot imagine that
tomorrow will bring better things? Poor education and the newspapers perpetuate
this myth. Nationalism is the past, it belongs to the realms of fear of what
may be.
You want to be positive and enjoy your life? Then buy a TV, buy the latest
computer. Feel satisfied. Does this work?. No, Why?
Don't expect a politician to answer that or Bill Gates. Education - Course we
don't need it, and neither do employers!
krasus
> Krasus says he likes duh free degrees.
You should take an english one because you clearly failed to understand what
my previous posts on this subject said Herr Rifleman.
krasus
Alexskidot <alexs...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20010629183538...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
I doubt Herr Rifleman was ever a real soldier - more likely he dresses up in
WW2 uniforms and listens to Hitlers speeches.
rifleman1
"krasus" You have become so pathetic that you must go to the killfile with
your mentor Serge, good by turd.
rifleman1
by a teenaage arsewipe.
David Buckley
krasus wrote:
That's a little kind. iirc Luton are known to accept 1N and 2U's as
sufficient!
> My step brother was
> getting 'university credit' for putting out the chairs for assembly at his
> school - how pathetic is that.
>
> > For every electronic engineering applicant this year there were two 10
> years
> > ago. The reverse seems true for art history and English literature.
>
> Thats because english, history, geography, humanties, social studies and the
> like are piss easy. Its just a case of repeating what other people have
> said.
I don't think the history, law and philosophy students I know would agree
with you. Most of the others are widely regarded as doss subjects though.
The ironic thing is that they are also subjects which require higher
qualifications
because the demand is greater because they are easier!
David Buckley
arealman wrote:
> Alexskidot wrote in message
> <20010628190907...@ng-ci1.aol.com>...
> >Typically British. Anyone who who takes time to educate themselves either
> >vocationally or academically is rubbished as a matter of course.
>
> Now that is not what I said. If you consider yourself to be educated, it's
> rather a pity you failed to absorb the top post before launching your
> crusade.
>
> >The result? A poor quality under educated workforce who believe education
> and
> >training is bad for them. Which includes - unfortunately - Recruiters.
>
> Recruiters ? Do Companies still alow a select few to recruit for them. Where
> I worked we stopped that a few decades ago and let Managers recruit for
> themselves.
>
> >I have heard a number of these actually suggesting that they would never
> >consider employing anyone who as achieved a 1st. Incredible but true.
>
> For all you say however I employed many grads. Explain to me why some of our
> people with a handful of O levels ran circles around them.
What line of business?
Nick Cooper
<rifl...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Yes you are, you accuse me of cowardise, I have spent three tours of duty in
>Belfast in the late 70's and early 80's and have sen members of my regiment
>killed, I have spent days in Armagh stalking provos and was scared shitless
>cos they were using a 50 cal barratt rifle that could and did kill us from
>over a mile away, but I like my colleages got on with it whilst you were
>pissing about at school,You say you wish to punch my lights out , on the
>internet, without any method of achieving it, and when I point out that you
>are behaving like a big baby you throw even more abuse and take a bigger
>tantrum.
"Fear" and "courage" are, of course, concepts that are so woefully
over-used by people who have really experienced neither that it's
nigh-on impossible for them to empathise with those that have. I've
studied military matters for years, and in fact I'd consider myself to
be moderately expert in some areas, but one can only grasp intagibly
at a tiny fraction of what being in combat must really be like. It's
hardly on the same level (a bit like comparing go-karting in Blackpool
to F1 racing at Brands Hatch), but on the occasions I've been
paintballing (viewed by ultra-PC types as suspect in itself!), being
in a constant state of half-panic (the time someone stuck a .357
Magnum in my face or the occasion I've had a knife at my throat
strangely pale in comparison!), desperately aware of every movement,
having to make split-second decisions whether to fire at a rustle of
leaves not knowing if it's a team-mate or the opposition, does perhaps
give a shred of a glimmer of an understanding. Funnily enough,
though, it was always notable that the biggest loudmouth, "I'm gonna
blast all you fuckers"-types were either the easiest to take out, or
could be found pinned down and cowering in some corner or other of the
woods. It was also surprising just how effectively you can play if
you team up with a mate who equally understands the concepts of
"covering fire" and a "pincher movement."
--
Nick Cooper
625-Online - classic British television:
http://www.625.org.uk
Lost in France (& Belgium) - Two weeks in Normandy, the Somme & Flanders:
http://freespace.virgin.net/nick.cooper/personal
Simon the Cat of 'HMS Amethyst':
http://freespace.virgin.net/nick.cooper/personal/moggies/simon/simon.htm
arealman
rifleman1 wrote in message ...
I should'nt be surprised if Kraut would'nt be more at home with Boys Own
arealman
rifleman1 wrote in message ...
>>
Perhaps he might care to meet you personally, do you think ?
arealman
rifleman1
"arealman" <Ma...@Playboy.com> wrote in message
He has said he wants to punch my face in , but not offered a way of
achieving it, He may if we did meet kick six colours out of me, but not
before I had rammed my fist down his throat, I aint bothered about losing a
fight, I have won some and lost a lot, esp when I was in the TA Paras many
moons ago, but it would cause me any lost sleep over a wanker like him.
>
>
krasus
>
> "krasus" You have become so pathetic that you must go to the killfile with
> your mentor Serge, good by turd.
Oh no - Herr Rifleman wont read my posts any more - boo hoo - never mind.
I'll still reply to yours just to make sure everyone knows what a right wing
piece of racist nazi scum you are.
arealman
In reality he is probably a frustrated schoolboy and makes big from the
safety of his bedroom.
kind regards
arealman
arealman
krasus wrote in message <9hlpuu$g16$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>...
Steve Frazer
> Interesting since the Nazis were socialists.
Please not this tired argument again. So the GDR was democratic? Right
that's that thread finished.............. Next you'll be saying Blair is a
socialist, so we can all laugh at you even more.
--
Steve
"Pity the man who knows his insignificance,
Pity the man who doesn't"
http://members.nbci.com/steve_frazer/
Dodgy
wrote:
>Today I heard about a Company who had a firm policy never to employ anyone
>with a Degree because generally, they had been found to be useless.
>
>I have to say this tends to fit in with my own experience. I only ever
>employed one person with a degree who was actually any good. Granted
>sometimes their highly specialised knowledge might be useful but overall
>performance was invariably lacking to say the very least.
>
> Given a completely free hand, I would tend to operate on the same basis as
>the cited Company.
>
>Anyone else found similar.
>
>
>arealman
>
YES !!! Absolutely. Personally i think that any form of engineering
degree, particularly in the information technology arena, should be
dropped.
And that's not just because i work in that field, have no degree and
want to protect my future !
Bring back the "closed shop" !
arealman
Marie
wrote:
>Today I heard about a Company who had a firm policy never to employ anyone
>with a Degree because generally, they had been found to be useless.
>
>I have to say this tends to fit in with my own experience. I only ever
>employed one person with a degree who was actually any good. Granted
>sometimes their highly specialised knowledge might be useful but overall
>performance was invariably lacking to say the very least.
>
> Given a completely free hand, I would tend to operate on the same basis as
>the cited Company.
>
>Anyone else found similar.
>
>
>arealman
No, no, no, no!
You should have entitled this thread with an essay question ......
'Degrees are useless'. Discuss.
First of all we have to narrow down the debate.
*What kind of work are you in, Arealman. Maybe the people who get
degrees in your field are being ill-served by their universities.*
I admire the manner in which you precipitated this thread. A
controversial, provocative thread title always attracts a lot of
participants.
However, there are so many degree courses available that it would be
foolish and crass to dismiss them all as 'useless'.
I mean, after all, you'd be very disappointed if you discovered that
your GP didn't have an MD or that the lawyer who is to defend you on a
trial of murder doesn't have a law degree.
So, the point is: where do you draw the line?
Do we go back to the year 0 like Pol Pot did? Do we raze our seats of
learning to the ground?
And, incidentally, the Tories precipitated on of the biggest
expansions of Higher Education in the last century. Blame them.
I have to say that I do have some sympathy with the view that children
are being pressured to go to university even though that might not
have been the ideal course of action for them. I wanted to study
performing arts at a specialised college but my parents wouldn't let
me. They demanded I go to Sixth Form College and do a-levels. The
stage just wasn't good enough for them.
But I take a philosophical view: I might not have been some great
film star. I'd have probably wound up as an extra ;-)
One last thing: a bit OT but loosely based on the topic of the thread:
I went to 6th form college and then on to uni. I received free
prescriptions up until I was 19. Recently I tutored a group of young
people who were doing Modern Apprenticeships. If one leaves school to
become a apprentice their income is very low and yet, according to the
boys I tutored they were being denied free dental treatment, free
prescriptions. Now that's what we call an anomaly in the law.
Does this strike anyone else as hideously unfair?
Marie & Bella the Cat
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
To err is human, to purr is divine
David Buckley
Arealman, could you trim superfluos material next time?
Thank you.
arealman
>No, no, no, no!
>You should have entitled this thread with an essay question ......
>'Degrees are useless'. Discuss.
>
>First of all we have to narrow down the debate.
>*What kind of work are you in, Arealman. Maybe the people who get
>degrees in your field are being ill-served by their universities.*
>
>I admire the manner in which you precipitated this thread. A
>controversial, provocative thread title always attracts a lot of
>participants.
Congratulations Marie. I deliberatly use a certain style to generate wide
discussion but you are the first and only one to have latched onto it. I
expect you have the rest of my character worked out too but keep it to
yourself, as he is still useful.
I retired at 46 Marie but I was in International Banking. It is always
difficult to define what I did as truly it was many and various things. When
it hit the fan, or there was a problem that appeared to be insurmountable,
thats when they said, "Put "arealman" on it. I don't regard myself as
especially clever Marie but I had a dogged perseverence and the ability to
delve to the very depth of detail that ensured my "projects were always
winners.
But enough of that.
>However, there are so many degree courses available that it would be
>foolish and crass to dismiss them all as 'useless'.
>
>I mean, after all, you'd be very disappointed if you discovered that
>your GP didn't have an MD or that the lawyer who is to defend you on a
>trial of murder doesn't have a law degree.
Accepted
>So, the point is: where do you draw the line?
But much as a Dr has obtained his degree ( and not an actual Doctorate ) he
still lacks the years of experience that will make him a good or bad Dr. And
I suppose this is my real point. Some people are clever at memorising books
and passing exams. I am not. But when these people are faced with a real
live problem to solve, suddenly the books and exams may not be enough.
>
>Do we go back to the year 0 like Pol Pot did? Do we raze our seats of
>learning to the ground?
No I don't seriously suggest people should stop taking Degrees. But we
should not automatically revere someone who has a degree either.
>And, incidentally, the Tories precipitated on of the biggest
>expansions of Higher Education in the last century. Blame them.
I don't think this is as simple as that. Computerisation in offices and
factories from the late 60's reduced dramatically the number of labour
intensive repetitive jobs and competition from abroad all conspired to force
modified thinking about the way we trained people. The fact that we are such
a dominant force in the worlds economies today lends credance to the
argument that the Thatcher years were, contrary to the pessimists beliefs,
our golden years.
>I have to say that I do have some sympathy with the view that children
>are being pressured to go to university even though that might not
>have been the ideal course of action for them. I wanted to study
>performing arts at a specialised college but my parents wouldn't let
>me. They demanded I go to Sixth Form College and do a-levels. The
>stage just wasn't good enough for them.
>
>But I take a philosophical view: I might not have been some great
>film star. I'd have probably wound up as an extra ;-)
In a different way I too was channeled into a direction not of my immediate
choosing. As it turned out. it did'nt matter, I did well and retired young
and I actually enjoyed many of my years at work. Whatever job you do will
become a chore because it is a job. Your hobbies ( which you would love to
do as a job ) also become a chore if you go ahead and turn them into a job.
Such is the fickle nature of life.
>
>One last thing: a bit OT but loosely based on the topic of the thread:
>I went to 6th form college and then on to uni. I received free
>prescriptions up until I was 19. Recently I tutored a group of young
>people who were doing Modern Apprenticeships. If one leaves school to
>become a apprentice their income is very low and yet, according to the
>boys I tutored they were being denied free dental treatment, free
>prescriptions. Now that's what we call an anomaly in the law.
>
>Does this strike anyone else as hideously unfair?
Many things like this are unfair, yet when it comes to squandering money on
Europe, Domes and race issues, the Governmnet purse know no bounds. This is
just one of the many reasons I hold Bliar in such uttter and total contempt.
I hope this is cohesive reply but it was done in a hurry , in stages
...sorry if I missed anything.
arealman
Marie
wrote:
>
>
>>No, no, no, no!
>>You should have entitled this thread with an essay question ......
>>'Degrees are useless'. Discuss.
>>
>>First of all we have to narrow down the debate.
>>*What kind of work are you in, Arealman. Maybe the people who get
>>degrees in your field are being ill-served by their universities.*
>>
>>I admire the manner in which you precipitated this thread. A
>>controversial, provocative thread title always attracts a lot of
>>participants.
>
>Congratulations Marie. I deliberatly use a certain style to generate wide
>discussion but you are the first and only one to have latched onto it. I
>expect you have the rest of my character worked out too but keep it to
>yourself, as he is still useful.
Yes and this is a useful technique in a political newsgroup. You want
to aim for a wide range of participants. I am disturbed however by
those who label such techniques 'trolling'. - the art of provoking an
entire newsgroup. Here, however, the term is irrelevant as this
group's raison d'etre is controversial political debate.
I can understand why people accuse others of trolling in the
alt.support hierarchy but not in a political newsgroup where fierce
political debate is the newsgroup's raison d'etre.
I may not always agree with you Areal man but ain't that the point.
You seem to have the capacity to argue in a rational and persuasive
manner without (for the most part) resorting to personal insults.
>
>I retired at 46 Marie but I was in International Banking. It is always
>difficult to define what I did as truly it was many and various things. When
>it hit the fan, or there was a problem that appeared to be insurmountable,
>thats when they said, "Put "arealman" on it. I don't regard myself as
>especially clever Marie but I had a dogged perseverence and the ability to
>delve to the very depth of detail that ensured my "projects were always
>winners.
>But enough of that.
That rocks! Not everyone needs to have a university degree to be
successful, although that seems to be the mode of thinking that the
government is enmeshed in at the moment. I think about my father's
relatives. They all got to grammar school and they ended to doing
a-levels but very few of them went to university. My relatives have
high powered jobs in the civil service and they achieved this by sheer
hard work - working up through the ranks. I have an aunt who has a
high profile job at Customs and Excise. I have an uncle who has a
very high position in the civil service, (he won't tell me what -
official secrets) An indication of his importance is that whenever he
needs to be sent to London he travels there by plane from Liverpool. I
also have an aunt who is a alcoholic but who attained a high position
in the civil service - she managed a DSS office in Liverpool.
Unfortunately she is an alcoholic and a bottle of whisky was always in
her desk drawer. She was found out eventually and was forced to take
early retirement. She now lives on a pension which pays almost as
much as her wages.
Incidentally (for the benefit of Rifleman - you will make sure he sees
this, won't you): the two of my aunts I mentioned are single mothers
(they are Catholic too. Talk about the ultimate act of rebellion.
There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth when my grandparents
found out BUT my aunts have never received state benefits. They have
always worked. I think the decline of the extended family has a lot
to answer for when it comes to mothers on benefits, with no hope of
ever getting a job. Perhaps as 'adopt a granny' scheme is in order!
(snipped)
>
>>So, the point is: where do you draw the line?
>
>But much as a Dr has obtained his degree ( and not an actual Doctorate ) he
>still lacks the years of experience that will make him a good or bad Dr. And
>I suppose this is my real point. Some people are clever at memorising books
>and passing exams. I am not. But when these people are faced with a real
>live problem to solve, suddenly the books and exams may not be enough.
Well, exactly. Which is why we have junior doctors who are just
learning the ropes. My mother is a psychiatric nurse who frequently
voices her irritation at the fact that nursing degrees have changed so
much - They are now classroom based with the odd bit of work
experience. My mother thought it was much better in the old days when
most training occurred on the wards. She says it is now 'too much
theory and not enough practice'.
>>
>>Do we go back to the year 0 like Pol Pot did? Do we raze our seats of
>>learning to the ground?
>
>
>No I don't seriously suggest people should stop taking Degrees. But we
>should not automatically revere someone who has a degree either.
No, this is a perfectly reasonable position. I know many people who
having obtained all the degrees under the sun who can't handle LIFE.
You need more than a degree to lead a successful life. You also need
tenacity and confidence in yourself. Intellect alone is not nearly
enough.
>
>
>>And, incidentally, the Tories precipitated on of the biggest
>>expansions of Higher Education in the last century. Blame them.
>
>
>I don't think this is as simple as that. Computerisation in offices and
>factories from the late 60's reduced dramatically the number of labour
>intensive repetitive jobs and competition from abroad all conspired to force
>modified thinking about the way we trained people. The fact that we are such
>a dominant force in the worlds economies today lends credance to the
>argument that the Thatcher years were, contrary to the pessimists beliefs,
>our golden years.
Yes. I recognise that what happened in the eighties was part of an
economic evolutionary process. And the Thatcher years were indeed
'golden years' for SOME people (loadsamoney - the Harry Enfield
character springs to mind). They weren't too bad for me if I'm honest
(Apart from the anorexia but I can't really blame the Tories for a
self -inflicted illness) What annoyed me about the Tories is that
many of them shouted from the rooftops that a certain amount of
unemployment was a necessary evil and those same Tories would come
down off those rooftops and berate people for being unemployed. Does
that make sense to you? They also (particularly Thatcher) exhibited
no understanding of what it was like to have your community ripped
apart by the closure of a local mine of factory. Perhaps she'd
undergone an empathy bypass at an earlier time in her life!
I think one positive outcome of the Thatcher years is that so many
mature students had a taste of university in later life (and probably
got more out of it. Incidentally, there was a guy in one of my
classes at college who was doing a degree in History and Italian. He
was a mature student who had worked in international banking - he
worked in an Italian bank. You're not that guy, are you Arealman?????
;-)
I have more to say on this subject.
And will return to the debate in due course.
Keep those controversial topics coming!
'rie
Marie & Bella the Cat