On Prayer

[Fred M. McNeill]

Better living through chemistry(coffee) and prayer.
Both brain management means.
"Faith" not required, particular
religion not required. The 'practice' of prayer
influences the brain, that is enough.
There is probably a genetic basis, as the effects are
ubiquitous in 'humans',

A good way to practice stories.
--


Frederick Martin McNeill
Phone: 858 206-3517
Poway, California, USA
Email mmcn...@fuzzysys.com
***********************************************
"Sure you can trust the Government, ask any Indian."
Ben Stein :“Fathom the Hypocrisy of a Government that
requires every citizen to prove they are insured....
but not everyone must prove they are a citizen.”
**************************************

[Dare]

"Fred M. McNeill" <mmcn...@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message news:qp3jp7puf9mvgcqie...@4ax.com...

> Better living through chemistry(coffee) and prayer.
> Both brain management means.
> "Faith" not required, particular
> religion not required. The 'practice' of prayer
> influences the brain, that is enough.
> There is probably a genetic basis, as the effects are
> ubiquitous in 'humans',

I have wondered about that....
does practice without faith(honest belief) 'work'?
Does it still have a similar brain influence
as prayer for a 'true believer'?
I'm thinking of ritual...or rote...recitation of prayers,
like the Hail Mary and Rosary, Lord's Prayer, etc....
does 'automatic' unthinking recital of a memorized prayer
have as much....or any....effect?
Some say they can even recite the prayer while thinking
of something else altogether.

> A good way to practice stories.

You're right...one's chosen story can make all the difference!
But, how much, if any, 'choice' does one really have?

[Fred M. McNeill]

On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 15:15:06 -0400, "Dare" <clyd...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Fred M. McNeill" <mmcn...@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message news:qp3jp7puf9mvgcqie...@4ax.com...
>> Better living through chemistry(coffee) and prayer.
>> Both brain management means.
>> "Faith" not required, particular
>> religion not required. The 'practice' of prayer
>> influences the brain, that is enough.
>> There is probably a genetic basis, as the effects are
>> ubiquitous in 'humans',
>
>I have wondered about that....
>does practice without faith(honest belief) 'work'?

Probably. Practice anything and it will become your experienced
reality. Especially if there is evidence (science) or
support (community or church).

>Does it still have a similar brain influence
>as prayer for a 'true believer'?

Probably not, building a model is not the same as
using it.

>I'm thinking of ritual...or rote...recitation of prayers,
>like the Hail Mary and Rosary, Lord's Prayer, etc....
>does 'automatic' unthinking recital of a memorized prayer
>have as much....or any....effect?

Probably.

[Doug Freyburger]

Dare wrote:

> "Fred M. McNeill" <mmcn...@fuzzysys.com> wrote:
>
>> Better living through chemistry(coffee) and prayer.
>> Both brain management means.
>> "Faith" not required, particular
>> religion not required. The 'practice' of prayer
>> influences the brain, that is enough.
>> There is probably a genetic basis, as the effects are
>> ubiquitous in 'humans',

The distinction between prayer and meditation is a matter of semantics
not a matter of medical effect. Both show improved blood pressure and
other reductions in symptoms of stress.

> I have wondered about that....
> does practice without faith(honest belief) 'work'?
> Does it still have a similar brain influence
> as prayer for a 'true believer'?

Buddhists meditate without any reference to deity and their meditation
works. Sufis do ritual dances but that is combined with belief.

> I'm thinking of ritual...or rote...recitation of prayers,
> like the Hail Mary and Rosary, Lord's Prayer, etc....
> does 'automatic' unthinking recital of a memorized prayer
> have as much....or any....effect?

Folks fall into trances while drumming or chanting. The distinction
between trance and meditation is a matter of semantics not a matter of
medical effect.

Chanting is one of several hypnotic induction methods. Hypnotism does
not require belief and has similar medical effects to meditation.

> Some say they can even recite the prayer while thinking
> of something else altogether.

I have no idea how beneficial that would be.

>> A good way to practice stories.
>
> You're right...one's chosen story can make all the difference!
> But, how much, if any, 'choice' does one really have?

There is an unlimited supply of verse that can be quoted. The amount of
choice is huge. What effect the material has, that part I can't say.

[tooly]

On Apr 26, 3:15 pm, "Dare" <clydad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Fred M. McNeill" <mmcne...@fuzzysys.com> wrote in messagenews:qp3jp7puf9mvgcqie...@4ax.com...

All it takes is BELIEVING in a higher existence, doesn't it? I mean,
just to THINK there is something out there WORTH reaching toward. It
provides us with reason to struggle if nothing else; to evolve to FLY
when once could only crawl...that sort of thing. But we need to
BELIEVE the struggle is WORTH the effort. Materialism [to the depths
it is now taken], leaves us sorely diminished in this gestaltive
force, IMHO. It is the greatest problem we face as an intelligence
creature.

Thank god for the illusionists, for they provide us with medium to
attach our consciousness to, like lichen on rock, that we buy time to
evolve. Well...but the illusionists are having a hard time of it
these days, up against the likes of Sir Fred and the rationalists
[Immort and company etc]. Prevailing hegemony takes us 'downward' and
downward still, in a spiraling emptiness of lost meanings, in a
reappraised awareness where all too often, we conclude 'there is
NOTHING worth it, any longer. Romance is dead; and all we are left
with is a bit of curiosity to get us by. Curiosity is not enough. And
of course, finally, there is the PAIN. Pain FORCES us to be here...but
without HOPE [which is where science leads us]....well, PAIN makes us
captives of hell is all.

I hope I'm wrong in all this of course. But I really don't think so.
I extrapolate you see; try to conclude where our visions lead upon the
foreseeable horizon. I think we all at least SENSE that we no longer
travel upon a HOPEFUL path today...in any respect. We killed off our
gods and then God Himself. I'm not sure what we would expect.

Ah well, me? I'm going to Disney World.

[jonathan]

"tooly" <rd...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:0744e274-c76d-49c7...@e9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

....................................


The placebo effect has plenty of benefits. But I think
you have to really believe the ritual is valid or worthwhile
for the effect to work. Maybe we should design such
a worthwhile 'ritual' for ourselves.

I ...believe our imagination, through the 'self-fulfilling prophecy'
can provide such benefits, while also having an even more powerful
effect of creating the future we ...want and believe in.

If we...imagine the ideal future, and really believe that vision
is good, we're likely to work to make that imagined future
a reality. So just as our future reality is highly dependent
upon our imagination, dreams and desires, so is our
current reality dependent on the dreams of the past.

In my opinion, Science 101 should be the science
of our imagination. How to imagine the best future
possible. Not just fanciful visions, but a future that
mathematically defines the best for the most.

Personal improvement would flow from the involvement
and excitement of helping see that shining goal move
forward.

Becoming an enthusiastic part to a much
greater whole is the path to fulfillment.
Imho.


Jonathan


s

[Dare]

"Fred M. McNeill" <mmcn...@fuzzysys.com> wrote in message news:no8jp753i03u7e879...@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 15:15:06 -0400, "Dare" <clyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I have wondered about that....
>>does practice without faith(honest belief) 'work'?
>
> Probably. Practice anything and it will become your experienced
> reality. Especially if there is evidence (science) or
> support (community or church).
> >
>> Does it still have a similar brain influence
>> as prayer for a 'true believer'?
>
> Probably not, building a model is not the same as
> using it.

What is 'practice'?
I think I understand the general idea of prayer/meditation
affecting brain processes...the theory....but when I have
practiced them, I don't perceive any change.
What am I doing wrong...or not doing right?

Your post raises an important(imo) point...
that humans seem to need a way to manage
the awareness of human constraints.
Seems 'we' 'know' just enough to be able to
make 'ourselves' frustrated and miserable...
some of 'us', anyway....but not enough to see
the 'whole' picture. Is finding and practicing
an effective brain management technique
necessary for survival in this, 'our' human condition?

What are some other techniques?

[Zinnic]

Why bother?

[Zinnic]

On Apr 26, 3:00 pm, Doug Freyburger <dfrey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dare wrote:

Ask the super-religious politicians.

[Doug Freyburger]

jonathan wrote:
>
> The placebo effect has plenty of benefits.

I suggest that calling the medical effects of meditation as placebo is a
self defeating approach. It is exercise for the brain.

> But I think
> you have to really believe the ritual is valid or worthwhile
> for the effect to work.

That's like saying you have to really believe that pumping iron or
running is effective for it to be so.

> Maybe we should design such
> a worthwhile 'ritual' for ourselves.

Absolutely. Design brain exercises explicity as such. Of course the
end result will be the same as for prayer and meditation. On the one
hand there are millennia of practice getting the effects of meditation
optimized. On the other hand when designing a brain exercise explicitly
as such the scientific method can be applied. None of us can beat
millennia of ad hoc experimentation on our own but given time the
scientific method does always beat any and all prior ad hoc
experimentation.