What Is Postmodernism?
Simon Best
Hello!
I'm new here...
What's postmodernism? As in philosophically? What is postmodern
philosophy, if there is such a thing? Or is it some sort of collection
of philosophies?
I've asked about postmodernism in alt.postmodern, but I thought I should
probably ask here as well.
Being more specific...
What's the relationship between modernism and postmodernism?
What are the fundamental basics of postmodernism?
What are the postmodern positions on issues such as 'absolute truth',
'certain knowledge', and that sort of thing?
What misconceptions are there about postmodernism? (As in what is
postmodernism not?)
What else should I be asking about postmodernism?
Simon
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Personal: bars...@earthling.net
Yellow Skies: si...@yellowskies.com http://www.yellowskies.com
Everyone does their own signature to be different. How does that work?
James Archer
"Simon Best" <bars...@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:39AC1F8C...@earthling.net...
>
> Hello!
>
> I'm new here...
>
> What's postmodernism? As in philosophically? What is postmodern
> philosophy, if there is such a thing? Or is it some sort of collection
> of philosophies?
Ever seen /The Matrix/?
James
russell
Some people might suggest that it is everything after the
ideas of Nietzsche set in. Others (including myself) seem
to think that it is post wwii philosophy, philosophy after
the greatest catastrophe in the world. Yet others might say
that it is anything that postdates 'modern philosophy' which
starts with Kant. Others might suggest that it is simply
philosophy after the death of philosophy. I am sure there
are at least a dozen more explainations. I hope this
helped.
Russell
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
arami...@my-deja.com
russell <rew77N...@mindspring.com.invalid> wrote:
> Postmodernism is a very vauge subject.
>
> Some people might suggest that it is everything after the
> ideas of Nietzsche set in. Others (including myself) seem
> to think that it is post wwii philosophy, philosophy after
> the greatest catastrophe in the world. Yet others might say
> that it is anything that postdates 'modern philosophy' which
> starts with Kant. Others might suggest that it is simply
> philosophy after the death of philosophy. I am sure there
> are at least a dozen more explainations. I hope this
> helped.
>
> Russell
Ouch! Postmodernism is not that which merely postdates modernism.
Postmodernism includes that which modernism rejects. That is
postmodernism takes old constructs and re-uses them with new
(modernist) constructs. Postmodernism deconstructs traditional concepts
to reintroduce them with modern concepts. Modernism is exclusionary and
postmodernism is much more inclusionary.
Postmodernism takes the old classical elements and deconstructs them to
reintroduce them as something new. Postmodernism usually mixes new
things with old as well.
Modernism subjected value constructs to either, or scenarios, and
postmodernism adds to existing constructs to create new ones.
Here is a brief introduction to postmodernism -
http://www.colorado.edu/English/ENGL2012Klages/pomo.html
Try this search to learn a _lot_ more about postmodernist influences.
http://msie.yahoo.com/autosearch?p=postmodernism
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Michele Lidofsky
dominant world-view. There should be skepticism about any 'Grand
Narrative', since humans cannot assess anything in reality with 100%
objectivity, and therefore there are no absolute standards against which
any idea or concept can be measured.
Pluralism must rule, and the arts (and to some, the sciences, though
this idea is bitterly contested) must always reflect the Other, by
looking backward to the past, or sideways to other cultures.
Michele L.
Simon Best wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> I'm new here...
>
> What's postmodernism? As in philosophically? What is postmodern
> philosophy, if there is such a thing? Or is it some sort of collection
> of philosophies?
>
James Archer
> I'm afraid I have seen that film. A friend was enthusing about it,
> wishing to see it, so we went to see it. We were left somewhat
> unimpressed, though also amused (but probably not the way that was
> intended). Should I take 'The Matrix' to be a very postmodern film?
> Should I take it to be representative of postmodernism?
>
The latter. The basic concept of the so-called "matrix" was taken from
Baudrillard and some others, and then spiced up with some technolust and
kung fu. It's basically a metaphor for postmodernism, and a textbook
example of intertextuality.
I've got a big ol' paper on it somewhere on my hard drive. I'll see if I
can dig it up for ya.
James
Michele Lidofsky
>
> Michele Lidofsky wrote:
> >
> > Postmodernism is based on the concept that there can no longer be one
> > dominant world-view. There should be skepticism about any 'Grand
> > Narrative', since humans cannot assess anything in reality with 100%
> > objectivity, and therefore there are no absolute standards against which
> > any idea or concept can be measured.
>
> isn't it measured at all?
Postmodernism says that things cannot be objectively measured at all,
but
hey, you just asked someone to define it! I never signed up to *defend*
it! ;-) (I'm no great fan of postmodernism myself).
But if someone else wants to take on this question, be my guest....
> > Pluralism must rule, and the arts (and to some, the sciences, though
> > this idea is bitterly contested) must always reflect the Other, by
> > looking backward to the past, or sideways to other cultures.
> >
> > Michele L.
>
> 'Pluralism must rule' doesn't sound to me entirely consistent with
> 'Postmodernism is based on the concept that there can no longer be one
> dominand world-view' to me. Pluralism is itself a world view, or part
> of world views, isn't it? This is the sort of thing where I end up
> having difficulties.
When postmodernists say that pluralism must rule, I expect that they
mean that the prevailing philosophy of one's culture (east or west),
sex, or race must no longer be considered to be the dominant one.
If there IS no one dominant world-view, then pluralism rules - which by
postmodern definition must embrace ALL world-views - so maybe that
repudiates the paradox?
Michele
>
> Thanks Michele!
Simon Best
>
> In article <210046ed...@usw-ex0109-068.remarq.com>,
> russell <rew77N...@mindspring.com.invalid> wrote:
> > Postmodernism is a very vauge subject.
> >
> > Some people might suggest that it is everything after the
> > ideas of Nietzsche set in. Others (including myself) seem
> > to think that it is post wwii philosophy, philosophy after
> > the greatest catastrophe in the world. Yet others might say
> > that it is anything that postdates 'modern philosophy' which
> > starts with Kant. Others might suggest that it is simply
> > philosophy after the death of philosophy. I am sure there
> > are at least a dozen more explainations. I hope this
> > helped.
> >
> > Russell
>
> Ouch! Postmodernism is not that which merely postdates modernism.
> Postmodernism includes that which modernism rejects. That is
> postmodernism takes old constructs and re-uses them with new
> (modernist) constructs. Postmodernism deconstructs traditional concepts
> to reintroduce them with modern concepts. Modernism is exclusionary and
> postmodernism is much more inclusionary.
Deconstruction, that's something I'm going to have to learn more
about...
> Postmodernism takes the old classical elements and deconstructs them to
> reintroduce them as something new. Postmodernism usually mixes new
> things with old as well.
>
> Modernism subjected value constructs to either, or scenarios, and
> postmodernism adds to existing constructs to create new ones.
Sorry, I didn't really follow that last bit.
> Here is a brief introduction to postmodernism -
> http://www.colorado.edu/English/ENGL2012Klages/pomo.html
Thanks! It's all helping me to get some idea of postmodernism.
> Try this search to learn a _lot_ more about postmodernist influences.
> http://msie.yahoo.com/autosearch?p=postmodernism
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Yeah, I'll give search engines another try...
Simon Best
>
> Ever seen /The Matrix/?
>
> James
I'm afraid I have seen that film. A friend was enthusing about it,
wishing to see it, so we went to see it. We were left somewhat
unimpressed, though also amused (but probably not the way that was
intended). Should I take 'The Matrix' to be a very postmodern film?
Should I take it to be representative of postmodernism?
Simon
Simon Best
>
> Postmodernism is based on the concept that there can no longer be one
> dominant world-view. There should be skepticism about any 'Grand
> Narrative', since humans cannot assess anything in reality with 100%
> objectivity, and therefore there are no absolute standards against which
> any idea or concept can be measured.
Okay... According to which standards is postmodernism measured? Or
isn't it measured at all?
> Pluralism must rule, and the arts (and to some, the sciences, though
> this idea is bitterly contested) must always reflect the Other, by
> looking backward to the past, or sideways to other cultures.
>
> Michele L.
'Pluralism must rule' doesn't sound to me entirely consistent with
'Postmodernism is based on the concept that there can no longer be one
dominand world-view' to me. Pluralism is itself a world view, or part
of world views, isn't it? This is the sort of thing where I end up
having difficulties.
Thanks Michele!
Simon Best
>
> "Simon Best" <bars...@earthling.net> wrote in message
> news:39AC5D7D...@earthling.net...
>
> > wishing to see it, so we went to see it. We were left somewhat
> > unimpressed, though also amused (but probably not the way that was
> > intended). Should I take 'The Matrix' to be a very postmodern film?
> > Should I take it to be representative of postmodernism?
> >
>
> Baudrillard and some others, and then spiced up with some technolust and
> kung fu. It's basically a metaphor for postmodernism, and a textbook
> example of intertextuality.
>
> I've got a big ol' paper on it somewhere on my hard drive. I'll see if I
> can dig it up for ya.
>
> James
Thank you! That would be most helpful.
Simon Best
>
> Simon Best wrote:
> >
> > Okay... According to which standards is postmodernism measured? Or
> > isn't it measured at all?
>
> Postmodernism says that things cannot be objectively measured at all,
> but
> hey, you just asked someone to define it! I never signed up to *defend*
> it! ;-) (I'm no great fan of postmodernism myself).
Perhaps my question was a bit cheeky. So, may I ask why you're not a
great fan of postmodernism?
> > 'Pluralism must rule' doesn't sound to me entirely consistent with
> > 'Postmodernism is based on the concept that there can no longer be one
> > dominand world-view' to me. Pluralism is itself a world view, or part
> > of world views, isn't it? This is the sort of thing where I end up
> > having difficulties.
>
> When postmodernists say that pluralism must rule, I expect that they
> mean that the prevailing philosophy of one's culture (east or west),
> sex, or race must no longer be considered to be the dominant one.
Seems to me that one of the contentions between postmodernists and
modernists is whether or not this is the abyss of absolute relativity.
Until recently, I regarded the notion of absolute relativity as being a
self contradiction, on the basis that it is itself an assertion of an
absolute (that 'everything is relative', except, of course, absolute
relativity itself).
Now, I'm not so sure. It's 'cause of stuff like Godel's incompleteness
theorem (mathematics), where Kurt Godel essentially says to mathematics
(in mathematical language) 'Mathematics will never prove this assertion
to be true.'. Within mathematics, it's the old liar paradox ('This
statement is not true.'), though with the self contradiction going via
the context (mathematics, in this case).
Consider this: You, Michele Lidofsky, will never truly know this
statement to be true. Is it true? Do you know? Do you truly know? Do
you just suspect it's true? Do you believe it's true? But do you truly
know?
Now this: I, Simon Best, will never truly know this statement to be
true. Is it true? Do I know? If I ever truly know it to be true, it
isn't true, but that means I can't ever _truly_ know it to be true, so
it's true after all... Now, if you follow that paradox I'm now in, and
a part of, you can see how it is true. In just the same way, I know
that you will never truly know the previous, paradoxical statement to be
true, without it being a paradox for me (it's a pet paradox, belonging
to whoever's identified in the statement).
So, I'm wondering if, perhaps, assertions like 'everything is relative',
and other such seemingly self contradictory things, might just be the
same kind of thing?
Anyway...
> If there IS no one dominant world-view, then pluralism rules - which by
> postmodern definition must embrace ALL world-views - so maybe that
> repudiates the paradox?
>
> Michele
Thanks again, Michele!
Simon
russell
I clearly admited that my definitions were but several of
many.
Mr. Dave
Matrix": I'm suprised how few people noticed what book is open in Neo's room
right at the beginning of the film! [isn't the chapter "simulation and
simulacra"?]
If you do find that paper, are you going to post it to this NG? If not, could
you possibly mail it to me as well?
cheers,
Dave.
Mr. Dave
sorry I hadn't noticed you'd actually posted it below...
: )
Cheers!
James Archer
"Mr. Dave" <d...@mandav.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:39AD158F...@mandav.freeserve.co.uk...
> d'oh...
>
> sorry I hadn't noticed you'd actually posted it below...
Not a problem. Let me know what you think.
James
drache
I know you've probably received more answers than you bargained for, but I
have some stuff to add that from a quick review of what other people wrote,
has quite been discussed (although some of the things Im going to mention
will be repetitive).
Subject wise (and as I understand it), post modernism contains some on going
themes which set it apart from morderism and the previous philosophic
trends. First, is the idea of deconstruction and nihilism (Im a bit weary of
placing these 2 concepts together). A systematic breaking down of ideas in
not only philosophy, but also religion, literature, language, science etc
etc. Its always been my opinion that this deconstruction has its roots in
the idea of Nihilism (which Nietzsche speaks alot about). However this is
not necessarily so, and many people prolly disagree.
Second, alot of what happened in the beginning of the 20th century
influenced postmodernism quite a bit. Not only WWII and such, but also in
science. Quantum Mechanics and the introduction of a relative universe
turned alot of people on their head. I think the question went from being
"what is truth?" to "can there be truth?" Thus you have the introduction of
relativity in perspective, (Heidegger, Godamer, and many others write
volumes on this)... Also, from the question of truth and relativity you have
an emphasis on CONTEXT. Things become contextualized, including the thinker.
Lastly, I think the combination of the two ideas above lead to a
interdisciplinary contruction (for lack of a better term). As someone else
posted earlier, ideas and fields are put together and compared in ways never
done before. For example I think Kuhn did a bit of this in The Structure of
Scientific Revolutions.
Anyway, I hope this sheds some light on the topics within postmodernism.
Note, this is not by any means all of the topics, but I do think they are
some of the major ones which have shaped post modernism.
Kiki
--
"Wo ist doch der Blitz, der euch mit seiner Zunge lecke? Wo ist der Wahnsinn
, mit dem ihr geimft werden muesstet?"
"Where is the lightening that licks you with his tongue? Where is the
insanity with which you must be vaccinated?"
--Friedrich Nietzsche: Also Sprach Zarathrustra--
"Simon Best" <bars...@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:39AC1F8C...@earthling.net...
>
> Hello!
>
> I'm new here...
>
> What's postmodernism? As in philosophically? What is postmodern
> philosophy, if there is such a thing? Or is it some sort of collection
> of philosophies?
>
> I've asked about postmodernism in alt.postmodern, but I thought I should
> probably ask here as well.
>
> Being more specific...
>
> What's the relationship between modernism and postmodernism?
>
> What are the fundamental basics of postmodernism?
>
> What are the postmodern positions on issues such as 'absolute truth',
> 'certain knowledge', and that sort of thing?
>
> What misconceptions are there about postmodernism? (As in what is
> postmodernism not?)
>
> What else should I be asking about postmodernism?
>
> Simon
>
> --
>
____________________________________________________________________________
___
arami...@my-deja.com
russell <rew77N...@mindspring.com.invalid> wrote:
> Correct. I do not see your point in addressing me though.
> I clearly admited that my definitions were but several of
> many.
>
> Russell
Dear Russell, [note the personalization] ;-)
Er, no offense intended. :-/
Did you believe that because I was replying to your post that I was
addressing you personally? I clearly recognize that your post is no
more a complete summary of your knowledge on postmodernism, than was
mine.
russell
It has been an off week for me.
Sometimes you just feel like a brown pair of shoes in a
world of Tuxedos.
arami...@my-deja.com
russell <rew77N...@mindspring.com.invalid> wrote:
> I am sorry.
>
> It has been an off week for me.
>
> Sometimes you just feel like a brown pair of shoes in a
> world of Tuxedos.
>
> Russell
Rx. ... black shoe polish... qd
That should clear that right up for you.
Actually, what color is your tuxedo? Could brown shoes be postmodernist
fashion?
Simon Best
>
> In article <0b43b5e3...@usw-ex0108-062.remarq.com>,
> russell <rew77N...@mindspring.com.invalid> wrote:
> > I am sorry.
> >
> > It has been an off week for me.
> >
> > Sometimes you just feel like a brown pair of shoes in a
> > world of Tuxedos.
> >
> > Russell
>
> Rx. ... black shoe polish... qd
>
> That should clear that right up for you.
>
> Actually, what color is your tuxedo? Could brown shoes be postmodernist
> fashion?
I've got a velvet jacket...
--
_______________________________________________________________________________