America the Great?
Immortalist
growth of any of the world's major industrialized nations. Don't you remember the
pessimism of 20 years ago, when the critics said Japan and Germany are overtaking
the U.S.? Ridiculous.
Now, they say that India and China are overtaking us. Don't you believe it. We
may hit a few bumps, but America always moves ahead. That's what Americans do.
We move prosperity ahead.
We move prosperity ahead. We move freedom ahead. And we move people ahead.
...Terrorism is more insidious than Communism, because it yearns to destroy not
just the individual, but the entire international order. ...George W. Bush
...knows you don't reason with terrorists. You defeat them. He knows you can't
reason with people blinded by hate. You see, they hate the power of the
individual. They hate the progress of women. They hate the religious freedom of
others. And they hate the liberating breeze of democracy.
But, ladies and gentlemen, their hate is no match for America's decency.
We are the America that sends out the Peace Corps volunteers to teach our village
children. We are the America that sends out the missionaries and doctors to raise
up the poor and the sick.
We are the America that gives more than any other country to fight AIDS in Africa
and the developing world.
And we are the America that fights not for imperialism, but for human rights and
democracy.
You know, when the Germans brought down the Berlin Wall, America's determination
helped wield the sledgehammers. And when that lone, young Chinese man stood in
front of those tanks in Tiananmen Square, America stood with him. And when Nelson
Mandela smiled in election victory after all those years in prison, America
celebrated, too.
We are still the lamp lighting the world, especially those who struggle. No
matter in what labor camp they slave, no matter in what injustice they're
trapped, they hear our call. They see our light. And they feel the pull of our
freedom.
They come here, as I did, because they believe -- they believe in us. They come
because their hearts say to them, as mine did, "If only I can get to America."
You know, someone once wrote, "There are those who say that freedom is nothing
but a dream." They are right. It's the American dream.
No matter the nationality, no matter the religion, no matter the ethnic
background, America brings out the best in people.
Snipped from Arnold Schwarzenegger's Speech at GOP Convention
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/31/gop.schwarzenegger.transcript/index.html
ZenIsWhen
news:WIydncsuKMj...@comcast.com...
> The U.S. economy remains the envy of the world. We have the highest
economic
> growth of any of the world's major industrialized nations. Don't you
remember the
> pessimism of 20 years ago, when the critics said Japan and Germany are
overtaking
> the U.S.? Ridiculous.
>
> Now, they say that India and China are overtaking us. Don't you believe
it. We
> may hit a few bumps, but America always moves ahead. That's what Americans
do.
Obviously you know little about reality!
Immortalist
"ZenIsWhen" <ZenI...@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:10jc2ir...@corp.supernews.com...
Arnold Schwarzenegger said those things last night at the GOP convention.
Do you mean America will go the way of Britain and the Netherlands when they were
number one in everything? Or do you question the status of the USA as number one
in everything right now?
>
>
Constantinople
news:cYSdncos7LJ...@comcast.com:
Do you really expect an answer? The guy did not contradict any of the
points; he merely dismissed the whole thought. That is "argument by
attitude". He displays his attitude - that "you know little" (i.e.,
Arnold knows little) - and thereby strikes his posture of superior
knowledge. He's not trying to convince you of anything, since he hasn't
explained anything. So he isn't really engaging you on any intelligent
level. This is all about pose, all about display. Specifically, what
he's displaying is the "in", the "cool", the "oh so sophisticated"
attitude of anti-Americanism. He doesn't have to argue; in his own mind
he's won simply by having that attitude. He knows he's going to heaven,
and you're going to hell, he knows he's on the side of the beautiful
people and you're on the side of the rubes, the bumpkins, the yahoos,
and that is all he wants out of this.
Stranger
"Constantinople" <constan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns955796597...@140.99.99.130...
What more does he need to do? When discussing an overstuffed
glob of steroids who happens to be a piss poor thirdrate actor.
A toad would be superior.
>
>
>
>
Tim
economic
> growth of any of the world's major industrialized nations. Don't you
remember the
> pessimism of 20 years ago, when the critics said Japan and Germany are
overtaking
> the U.S.? Ridiculous.
I'm curious as to how Mr. S would define the U.S. economy. Is it still
accurate to speak of any countries economy as if it were an isolated and
independent entity?
>
> Now, they say that India and China are overtaking us. Don't you believe
it. We
> may hit a few bumps, but America always moves ahead. That's what Americans
do.
"Always"? I'm very suspicious of universal affirmatives when used in this
way.
>
> We move prosperity ahead.
For who? The gap between rich and poor is growing in the U.S. as it is in
many other countries. Who is prospering from the corporatization of the U.S.
and the rest of the world? The same technological innovations that America
helped create have put thousands out of work or have left them with menial
jobs that make "freedom" and "democracy" appear as some hellish nightmare
world.
>
> We move prosperity ahead. We move freedom ahead. And we move people ahead.
Blah, blah, blah.
>
> ...Terrorism is more insidious than Communism, because it yearns to
destroy not
> just the individual, but the entire international order. ...George W. Bush
> ...knows you don't reason with terrorists. You defeat them. He knows you
can't
> reason with people blinded by hate. You see, they hate the power of the
> individual. They hate the progress of women. They hate the religious
freedom of
> others. And they hate the liberating breeze of democracy.
O.K. there are plenty of wack jobs in the world who stand against many of
the good things that America has created or aided in bringing about. But all
that aside G.W. Bush said that he was no longer concerned about Bin Laden -
wha' the fuck? He went to war in Iraq over rumours and he's not worried
about Osama anymore? G.W.B isn't the sharpest stick in the forest regardless
of what side you butter your bread. Come on Arnie be honest - we both know
he don't shit from shinola. Lets face it tectonic plate movement and tornado
alley are more insidious than terrorism, communism, and G.W.B. put
together - now Arnie don't you have a fire to put out?
>
> But, ladies and gentlemen, their hate is no match for America's decency.
How could America be decent or indecent? Americans could but America? - come
on Arnie spare us the rhetorical B.S.
>
> We are the America that sends out the Peace Corps volunteers to teach our
village
> children. We are the America that sends out the missionaries and doctors
to raise
> up the poor and the sick.
We are the America that sends out napalm, cruise missiles, and our own poor
young in the name of corporate - I mean national - interest.
>
> We are the America that gives more than any other country to fight AIDS in
Africa
> and the developing world.
We are the America that sells 10* as much to Africa in weapons.
> And we are the America that fights not for imperialism, but for human
rights and
> democracy.
And oil - don't forget the oil Arnie.
>
> You know, when the Germans brought down the Berlin Wall, America's
determination
> helped wield the sledgehammers. And when that lone, young Chinese man
stood in
> front of those tanks in Tiananmen Square, America stood with him. And when
Nelson
> Mandela smiled in election victory after all those years in prison,
America
> celebrated, too.
Wow someone should write you guys a cheesy ten minute ballad with lots of
trumpet fanfares.
> We are still the lamp lighting the world, especially those who struggle.
No
> matter in what labor camp they slave, no matter in what injustice they're
> trapped, they hear our call. They see our light. And they feel the pull of
our
> freedom.
Tell that to the S. Americans who got that lamp shoved up where there aint
supposed to be no light.
> They come here, as I did, because they believe -- they believe in us. They
come
> because their hearts say to them, as mine did, "If only I can get to
America."
> You know, someone once wrote, "There are those who say that freedom is
nothing
> but a dream." They are right. It's the American dream.
And when there get there they get told sorry you can't come in.
>
> No matter the nationality, no matter the religion, no matter the ethnic
> background, America brings out the best in people.
But won't let them in.
Arnie has a mediocre speech writer who appears to be stuck in a nothing
sticks to us mode. America, like most Western democracies, is plagued with
intricate and complex problems - no patriotic speech will change that. That
we can't be wrong attitude is scary - it justifies the murder of innocents
in Iraq - they die in the name of freedom and peace - that's good right?
Constantinople
That is more posturing. There is nothing either verifiable or
falsifiable in your claim that a toad is superior to Arnold, because
it's not even a claim about facts, it's merely an expression of
attitude, and attitude is supreme these days among a certain crowd,
and may always have been supreme. "I despise him" is all you're
saying. It's not really anything that there's a good answer to, it
isn't really anything that can be discussed, because, being an
expression of your own attitude, it's like saying "I don't really care
for hip hop" or "I love chocolate ice cream". Since there isn't really
anything that can be disputed in such remarks, what's the point of
making them? The point is to establish a social hierarchy with
yourself as high up as you can push yourself. You're trying to push
yourself up in a pecking order by pushing other people down.
Stranger
You need to get a life and stop analyzing everything. You are making
yourself unhappy.
Immortalist
> news:cYSdncos7LJ...@comcast.com:
>
> >
> > "ZenIsWhen" <ZenI...@anywhere.com> wrote in message
> > news:10jc2ir...@corp.supernews.com...
> >> "Immortalist" <Reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:WIydncsuKMj...@comcast.com...
> >
> >> > The U.S. economy remains the envy of the world. We have the highest
> >> > economic growth of any of the world's major industrialized nations.
> >> > Don't you remember the pessimism of 20 years ago, when the critics
> >> > said Japan and Germany are overtaking the U.S.? Ridiculous.
> >> >
> >> > Now, they say that India and China are overtaking us. Don't you
> >> > believe it. We may hit a few bumps, but America always moves ahead.
> >> > That's what Americans do.
> >>
> >> Obviously you know little about reality!
> >>
> >
> > Arnold Schwarzenegger said those things last night at the GOP
> > convention.
> >
> > Do you mean America will go the way of Britain and the Netherlands
> > when they were number one in everything? Or do you question the status
> > of the USA as number one in everything right now?
>
> Do you really expect an answer?
Yes, I put up a couple of options to see if it was one or both or another
altogether.
> The guy did not contradict any of the
> points;
My statement didn't imply that he contradicted anything but was a question out of
mine own selfish curiosity.
> he merely dismissed the whole thought.
If that was his contention then you have answered the question for him.
Download this song;
residents constantinople
play very loud and think of Bush's head giant on a little body heading towards
the eastern empire on horse
Here I come Constantinople
Here I come coConstantinople
I am coming Constantinople
(ah ah bam bam eahonk eahonk)
Here I come
(ah ah)
All the leaves are off of the oak and
All of the sheep have followed the spoken
Word. I'm coming Constantinople
Here I come
So I stand out in the open
All my friends are with you I hope and
pray. I'm coming Constantinople
Here I come.
Here I come Constantinople
Here I come Constantinople
I am coming Constantinople
Here I come
Artist: Residents
Song: Constantinople
http://www.stlyrics.com/songs/r/residents8247/constantinople424201.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=residents+lyrics
> That is "argument by
> attitude". He displays his attitude - that "you know little" (i.e.,
> Arnold knows little) - and thereby strikes his posture of superior
> knowledge. He's not trying to convince you of anything, since he hasn't
> explained anything. So he isn't really engaging you on any intelligent
> level. This is all about pose, all about display. Specifically, what
> he's displaying is the "in", the "cool", the "oh so sophisticated"
> attitude of anti-Americanism.
Cool? Sounds like mainstream as Micheal Moore's apple pie with green spots of
mold on it you eat quickly. (ah ah)
Immortalist
"Tim" <a...@abc.abc> wrote in message
news:bI6dnf-Sgf9...@edaptivity.com...
>
> "Immortalist" <Reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:WIydncsuKMj...@comcast.com...
> > The U.S. economy remains the envy of the world. We have the highest
> economic
> > growth of any of the world's major industrialized nations. Don't you
> remember the
> > pessimism of 20 years ago, when the critics said Japan and Germany are
> overtaking
> > the U.S.? Ridiculous.
>
> I'm curious as to how Mr. S would define the U.S. economy. Is it still
> accurate to speak of any countries economy as if it were an isolated and
> independent entity?
>
> >
> > Now, they say that India and China are overtaking us. Don't you believe
> it. We
> > may hit a few bumps, but America always moves ahead. That's what Americans
> do.
>
> "Always"? I'm very suspicious of universal affirmatives when used in this
> way.
>
Probably meant "has always moved ahead in the past since it's inception..."
> >
> > We move prosperity ahead.
>
> For who? The gap between rich and poor is growing in the U.S. as it is in
> many other countries. Who is prospering from the corporatization of the U.S.
> and the rest of the world? The same technological innovations that America
> helped create have put thousands out of work or have left them with menial
> jobs that make "freedom" and "democracy" appear as some hellish nightmare
> world.
>
If we listened to this kind of logic the world would have disintigrated into a
puff of smoke a thousand years ago but we are still here. The revelation or
apocalypse may not happen that you seek after.
> >
> > We move prosperity ahead. We move freedom ahead. And we move people ahead.
>
> Blah, blah, blah.
>
I know this sounds strange when you are in Canada.
> >
> > ...Terrorism is more insidious than Communism, because it yearns to
> destroy not
> > just the individual, but the entire international order. ...George W. Bush
> > ...knows you don't reason with terrorists. You defeat them. He knows you
> can't
> > reason with people blinded by hate. You see, they hate the power of the
> > individual. They hate the progress of women. They hate the religious
> freedom of
> > others. And they hate the liberating breeze of democracy.
>
> O.K. there are plenty of wack jobs in the world who stand against many of
> the good things that America has created or aided in bringing about. But all
> that aside G.W. Bush said that he was no longer concerned about Bin Laden -
> wha' the fuck? He went to war in Iraq over rumours and he's not worried
> about Osama anymore? G.W.B isn't the sharpest stick in the forest regardless
> of what side you butter your bread. Come on Arnie be honest - we both know
> he don't shit from shinola. Lets face it tectonic plate movement and tornado
> alley are more insidious than terrorism, communism, and G.W.B. put
> together - now Arnie don't you have a fire to put out?
>
Ya but Syria and Iran still need their ruling elites destroyed ruthlessly and
that might take 4 mo years.
> >
> > But, ladies and gentlemen, their hate is no match for America's decency.
>
> How could America be decent or indecent? Americans could but America? - come
> on Arnie spare us the rhetorical B.S.
>
He probably meant Americans but his primary language was Austrian.
> >
> > We are the America that sends out the Peace Corps volunteers to teach our
> village
> > children. We are the America that sends out the missionaries and doctors
> to raise
> > up the poor and the sick.
>
> We are the America that sends out napalm, cruise missiles, and our own poor
> young in the name of corporate - I mean national - interest.
>
Girly men like you should talk, he might say, and with your methods the
terrorists would kill you quicker and deader than French sympathizers betrayed by
terrorists.
> >
> > We are the America that gives more than any other country to fight AIDS in
> Africa
> > and the developing world.
>
> We are the America that sells 10* as much to Africa in weapons.
>
We do more of everthing?
> > And we are the America that fights not for imperialism, but for human
> rights and
> > democracy.
>
> And oil - don't forget the oil Arnie.
>
That to he would probably admit.
> >
> > You know, when the Germans brought down the Berlin Wall, America's
> determination
> > helped wield the sledgehammers. And when that lone, young Chinese man
> stood in
> > front of those tanks in Tiananmen Square, America stood with him. And when
> Nelson
> > Mandela smiled in election victory after all those years in prison,
> America
> > celebrated, too.
>
> Wow someone should write you guys a cheesy ten minute ballad with lots of
> trumpet fanfares.
>
The truth does sound funny sometmes.
> > We are still the lamp lighting the world, especially those who struggle.
> No
> > matter in what labor camp they slave, no matter in what injustice they're
> > trapped, they hear our call. They see our light. And they feel the pull of
> our
> > freedom.
>
> Tell that to the S. Americans who got that lamp shoved up where there aint
> supposed to be no light.
>
Of course that depends upon how you define "injustice."
> > They come here, as I did, because they believe -- they believe in us. They
> come
> > because their hearts say to them, as mine did, "If only I can get to
> America."
> > You know, someone once wrote, "There are those who say that freedom is
> nothing
> > but a dream." They are right. It's the American dream.
>
> And when there get there they get told sorry you can't come in.
>
Do you mean legal or illegal immigrants?
> >
> > No matter the nationality, no matter the religion, no matter the ethnic
> > background, America brings out the best in people.
>
> But won't let them in.
>
You are acknolwedging the quota or upper number of immigrants allowed from each
country? Most countries have a similar policy, I don't where USA is different.
>
> Arnie has a mediocre speech writer who appears to be stuck in a nothing
> sticks to us mode. America, like most Western democracies, is plagued with
> intricate and complex problems - no patriotic speech will change that. That
> we can't be wrong attitude is scary - it justifies the murder of innocents
> in Iraq - they die in the name of freedom and peace - that's good right?
>
What innocents in Iraq and who mudered them. Have you been watching tv again?
Keynes
wrote:
Why not take it to alt.romance-novels ?
You are embarrassing yourself with this uncritical thinking,
this all-good all-bad dichotomy. It's just trashy prose and
does you no credit.
Tim
Now you sound like Arnie too. Is this the best you can do smokee - oh I
forgot I've dealt with you before so yeah that's about as much as I ought to
have expected.
Tim
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_cap
We have the highest economic
> growth of any of the world's major industrialized nations. Don't you
remember the
> pessimism of 20 years ago, when the critics said Japan and Germany are
overtaking
> the U.S.? Ridiculous.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_deb_ext
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_gro_199 - well your'e doing
better than Germany and the Japanese here.
> Now, they say that India and China are overtaking us. Don't you believe
it. We
> may hit a few bumps, but America always moves ahead. That's what Americans
do.
>
> We move prosperity ahead.
>
> We move prosperity ahead. We move freedom ahead. And we move people ahead.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_eco_fre
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_hum_dev_ind
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_lit_adu_at_hig_lit_lev
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_mat_app_gra_12
>
> ...Terrorism is more insidious than Communism, because it yearns to
destroy not
> just the individual, but the entire international order. ...George W. Bush
> ...knows you don't reason with terrorists. You defeat them. He knows you
can't
> reason with people blinded by hate. You see, they hate the power of the
> individual. They hate the progress of women. They hate the religious
freedom of
> others. And they hate the liberating breeze of democracy.
>
> But, ladies and gentlemen, their hate is no match for America's decency.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap
>
> We are the America that sends out the Peace Corps volunteers to teach our
village
> children. We are the America that sends out the missionaries and doctors
to raise
> up the poor and the sick.
>
> We are the America that gives more than any other country to fight AIDS in
Africa
> and the developing world.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_eco_aid_don_cap
>
> And we are the America that fights not for imperialism, but for human
rights and
> democracy.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/mil_exp_dol_fig_cap
>
> You know, when the Germans brought down the Berlin Wall, America's
determination
> helped wield the sledgehammers. And when that lone, young Chinese man
stood in
> front of those tanks in Tiananmen Square, America stood with him. And when
Nelson
> Mandela smiled in election victory after all those years in prison,
America
> celebrated, too.
>
> We are still the lamp lighting the world, especially those who struggle.
No
> matter in what labor camp they slave, no matter in what injustice they're
> trapped, they hear our call. They see our light. And they feel the pull of
our
> freedom.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/dem_civ_and_pol_lib
>
> They come here, as I did, because they believe -- they believe in us. They
come
> because their hearts say to them, as mine did, "If only I can get to
America."
> You know, someone once wrote, "There are those who say that freedom is
nothing
> but a dream." They are right. It's the American dream.
>
> No matter the nationality, no matter the religion, no matter the ethnic
> background, America brings out the best in people.
>
> Snipped from Arnold Schwarzenegger's Speech at GOP Convention
>
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/31/gop.schwarzenegger.transcript/index.html
>
>
>
Surely Mr. S's speech is hyperbole, wrapped in rhetoric, and propped up with
propaganda.
Constantinople
> "Constantinople" <constan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns955796597...@140.99.99.130...
>>That is "argument by
>>attitude". He displays his attitude - that "you know little" (i.e.,
>>Arnold knows little) - and thereby strikes his posture of superior
>>knowledge. He's not trying to convince you of anything, since he hasn't
>>explained anything. So he isn't really engaging you on any intelligent
>>level. This is all about pose, all about display. Specifically, what
>>he's displaying is the "in", the "cool", the "oh so sophisticated"
>>attitude of anti-Americanism.
>
>
> Cool? Sounds like mainstream as Micheal Moore's apple pie with green spots of
> mold on it you eat quickly. (ah ah)
There's an insular crowd set off from mainstream America. From the point
of view of that crowd, Michael Moore is fantastic, very "in". Recall
that he had a place of honor at the Democratic Convention. Recall that
his movie won the Cannes award - and going by the identity of the judges
I would guess that that endorsement represents the combined endorsement
of some group of Europeans, and the Hollywood crowd. Neither of them
mainstream America, both of them, I'm sure, pretty cut off from
mainstream America. To them, Michael Moore evidently is the man of the hour.
Immortalist
Ad Populum - AKA The Appeal to Popularity
The Appeal to Popularity has the following form:
- Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
- Therefore X is true.
The basic idea is that a claim is accepted as being true simply because most
people are favorably inclined towards the claim. More formally, the fact that
most people have favorable emotions associated with the claim is substituted in
place of actual evidence for the claim. A person falls prey to this fallacy if he
accepts a claim as being true simply because most other people approve of the
claim.
It is clearly fallacious to accept the approval of the majority as evidence for a
claim. For example, suppose that a skilled speaker managed to get most people to
absolutely love the claim that 1+1=3. It would still not be rational to accept
this claim simply because most people approved of it. After all, mere approval is
no substitute for a mathematical proof. At one time people approved of claims
such as "the world is flat", "humans cannot survive at speeds greater than 25
miles per hour", "the sun revolves around the earth" but all these claims turned
out to be false.
This sort of "reasoning" is quite common and can be quite an effective
persusasive device. Since most humans tend to conform with the views of the
majority, convincing a person that the majority approves of a claim is often an
effective way to get him to accept it. Advertisers often use this tactic when
they attempt to sell products by claiming that everyone uses and loves their
products. In such cases they hope that people will accept the (purported)
approval of others as a good reason to buy the product.
This fallacy is vaguely similar to such fallacies as Appeal to Belief and Appeal
to Common Practice. However, in the case of an Ad Populum the appeal is to the
fact that most people approve of a claim. In the case of an Appeal to Belief, the
appeal is to the fact that most people believe a claim. In the case of an Appeal
to Common Practice, the appeal is to the fact that many people take the action in
question.
This fallacy is closely related to the Appeal to Emotion fallacy, as discussed in
the entry for that fallacy.
Examples of Appeal to Popularity
"My fellow Americans...there has been some talk that the government is
overstepping its bounds by allowing police to enter peoples' homes without the
warrants traditionally required by the Constitution. However, these are dangerous
times and dangerous times require appropriate actions. I have in my office
thousands of letters from people who let me know, in no uncertain terms, that
they heartily endorse the war against crime in these United States. Because of
this overwhelming approval, it is evident that the police are doing the right
thing."
"I read the other day that most people really like the new gun control laws. I
was sort of suspicious of them, but I guess if most people like them, then they
must be okay."
Jill and Jane have some concerns that the rules their sorority has set are racist
in character. Since Jill is a decent person, she brings her concerns up in the
next meeting. The president of the sorority assures her that there is nothing
wrong with the rules, since the majority of the sisters like them. Jane accepts
this ruling but Jill decides to leave the sorority.
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22ad+populum%22
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Immortalist
"Tim" <a...@abc.abc> wrote in message
Thats right, you live for me?
http://tinyurl.com/5ms5c
>
Immortalist
"Keynes" <Key...@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
news:f3hdj0leljo2baeog...@4ax.com...
Actually it just happened and it is of some relation to political philosophy, but
apparently not to your liking.
What do you think though, when confronted with the very strong argument that the
USA is definately better than the rest of the shit hole countries on Earth?
>
>
>
Immortalist
"Tim" <a...@abc.abc> wrote in message
>
> "Immortalist" <Reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:WIydncsuKMj...@comcast.com...
> > The U.S. economy remains the envy of the world.
>
> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_cap
>
> We have the highest economic
> > growth of any of the world's major industrialized nations. Don't you
> remember the
> > pessimism of 20 years ago, when the critics said Japan and Germany are
> overtaking
> > the U.S.? Ridiculous.
>
> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_deb_ext
>
Doesn't say anything but that the USA and Brazil are the dealing with the largest
amounts of cash.
> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_gro_199 - well your'e doing
> better than Germany and the Japanese here.
>
Growth rate is deceptive if its not compared to existing volume of trade. This
argument is highly contingent.
> > Now, they say that India and China are overtaking us. Don't you believe
> it. We
> > may hit a few bumps, but America always moves ahead. That's what Americans
> do.
> >
> > We move prosperity ahead.
> >
> > We move prosperity ahead. We move freedom ahead. And we move people ahead.
>
> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_eco_fre
> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_hum_dev_ind
> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_lit_adu_at_hig_lit_lev
> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_mat_app_gra_12
>
Duh;
http://www.nationmaster.com/pie-T/eco_eco_ove
no question there that the main thing is we make more money than Canada or any
other shit hole on Earth.
http://www.nationmaster.com/pie-T/eco_exp
oh yah we export more than other girly countries to
http://www.nationmaster.com/pie-T/eco_gdp_gro_199
Gross Domestic Product is not something gross to Canadians but makes them look
like midgets in comparison to "the beast" baby.
In conclusion which leads me to believe that you selective input is biased by;
The Spotlight FALLACY
The Spotlight fallacy is committed when a person uncritically assumes that all
members or cases of a certain class or type are like those that receive the most
attention or coverage in the media. This line of "reasoning" has the following
form:
- Xs with quality Q receive a great deal of attention or coverage in the media.
- Therefore all Xs have quality Q.
This line of reasoning is fallacious since the mere fact that someone or
something attracts the most attention or coverage in the media does not mean that
it automatically represents the whole population. For example, suppose a mass
murderer from Old Town, Maine received a great deal of attention in the media. It
would hardly follow that everyone from the town is a mass murderer.
The Spotlight fallacy derives its name from the fact that receiving a great deal
of attention or coverage is often referred to as being in the spotlight. It is
similar to Hasty Generalization, Biased Sample and Misleading Vivideness because
the error being made involves generalizing about a population based on an
inadequate or flawed sample.
The Spotlight Fallacy is a very common fallacy. This fallacy most often occurs
when people assume that those who receive the most media attention actually
represent the groups they belong to. For example, some people began to believe
that all those who oppose abortion are willing to gun down doctors in cold blood
simply because those incidents received a great deal of media attention. Since
the media typically covers people or events that are unusual or exceptional, it
is somewhat odd for people to believe that such people or events are
representative.
For brief discussions of adequate samples and generalizations, see the entries
for Hasty Generalization and Biased Sample.
Examples of Spotlight
Bill: "Jane, you say you are a feminist, but you can't be."
Jane: "What! What do you mean? Is this one of your stupid jokes or something?"
Bill: "No, I'm serious. Over the summer I saw feminists appear on several talk
shows and news shows and I read about them in the papers. The women were really
bitter and said that women were victims of men and needed to be given special
compensation. You are always talking about equal rights and forging your own
place in the world. So, you can't be a feminist."
Jane: "Bill, there are many types of feminism, not just the brands that get media
attention."
Bill: "Oh. Sorry."
Joe: "Man, I'd never want to go to New York. It is all concrete and pollution."
Sam: "Not all of it."
Joe: "Sure it is. Everytime I watch the news they are always showing concrete
skyscrapers, and lots of pollution."
Sam: "Sure, that is what the news shows, but a lot of New York is farmlands and
forest. It is not all New York City, it just receives most of the attention."
Ann: "I'm not letting little Jimmy use his online account anymore!"
Sasha: "Why not? Did he hack into the Pentagon and try to start world war three?"
Ann: "No. Haven't you been watching the news and reading the papers? There are
perverts online just waiting to molest kids! You should take away your daughter's
account. Why, there must be thousands of sickos out there!"
Sasha: "Really? I thought that there were only a very few cases."
Ann: "I'm not sure of the exact number, but if the media is covering it so much,
then most people who are online must be indecent."
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22spotlight+fallacy%22
> >
> > ...Terrorism is more insidious than Communism, because it yearns to
> destroy not
> > just the individual, but the entire international order. ...George W. Bush
> > ...knows you don't reason with terrorists. You defeat them. He knows you
> can't
> > reason with people blinded by hate. You see, they hate the power of the
> > individual. They hate the progress of women. They hate the religious
> freedom of
> > others. And they hate the liberating breeze of democracy.
> >
> > But, ladies and gentlemen, their hate is no match for America's decency.
>
> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap
>
Looks like the per capita murder rate is lower than many countries.
How about the philantropy rate and the amount contributed to the world's
problems? I think this is what Arnold was talking about and there is no
comparison with the USA here.
> >
> > We are the America that sends out the Peace Corps volunteers to teach our
> village
> > children. We are the America that sends out the missionaries and doctors
> to raise
> > up the poor and the sick.
> >
> > We are the America that gives more than any other country to fight AIDS in
> Africa
> > and the developing world.
>
> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_eco_aid_don_cap
>
Per capita amounts of aid has no relation to the comparative amount given for the
solution to the aids problem.
------------------------------
Bono: Not Facing AIDS Crisis 'Foolhardy'
This is a partial transcript from "The O'Reilly Factor," Sept. 1, 2004, that has
been edited for clarity.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131198,00.html
BILL O'REILLY, HOST: Tonight, the lead singer of the rock group U2, the legendary
Bono. He has used his fame in a political way, forming a group called DATA, which
stands for Debt AIDS Trade Africa. The group tries to help that continent, which
is desperately poor, as you know, and ravaged with the HIV virus. What most
people don't know is that Bono has worked with both Democrats and Republicans on
Capitol Hill. He joins us now.
So are you a non-partisan guy?
BONO: I'm a non-partisan guy.
O’REILLY: You don't root?
BONO: I don't root anymore. Yes, I’ve stopped rooting. I'm rooting for people
that don't have a vote and for people whose faces we don't see.
O’REILLY: OK. So you're not going out with Springsteen to try to get Kerry
elected, you’re not going to do that?
BONO: I'm not going to do that. I love Bruce Springsteen, but I’m not going to do
that. I put all that behind me when I went to work for the world’s poorest and
most vulnerable. That’s what I have to do. It’s hard for an Irish rock star,
though, sometimes to shut up.
(LAUGHTER)
O’REILLY: Well, you don't have to shut up, it’s just about you have to make your
points in I think a broader way than saying, I like this guy, the other guy is
the devil. I think that alienates people. And you need bipartisan support, and
indeed you have bipartisan support in the United States, do you not?
BONO: Yes, yes -- no. We've worked very hard to have it. And it’s difficult. We
found the one thing that both parties can agree on, which is that it’s important
right now for America that the world sees the greatness of America through their
AIDS medicines, through their Peace Corps, through the real America, I see the
America I was a fan of.
That’s the America my father…
O’REILLY: Do you really believe America is a great country?
BONO: Yes, I do.
O’REILLY: Because a lot of Europeans do not.
BONO: Yes -- no, I mean, I'm like an annoying fan. I'm like the one that reads
the liner notes on the CD. I’m the one that -- I read the Declaration of
Independence before a speaking tour we did on AIDS in the Midwest. I've read the
Constitution. I've read these poetic tracks. And I suppose, you know, I'm just
going around trying to remind people that their country -- why it is great, and
in case they forget, why it’s great. Because the United States that I love is
like the Statue of Liberty with its arms open, give me your tired, your poor and
huddled masses. It’s not the continent behaving like an island, which sometimes
it behaves like.
O’REILLY: All right. Let’s get specific now. The United States gives more money
to poor people than any other country, raw dollars -- not per capita, raw dollars
we give, and we have given. We've freed billions of people all over the world.
But we have now a problem in this country, in the United States. We're fighting a
very intense war that takes an enormous amount of money to fight, just to protect
ourselves from people who would kill us. So that the largesse of the country is
skeptical.
They want the money to go where it's best needed. Now, Africa is your cause. That
is what you are front and center on, correct? Africa?
BONO: Yes. I wouldn't call it a cause, though.
O'REILLY: Well, whatever you want to say.
BONO: It's an emergency. 69,000 Africans dying every day of a preventable,
treatable disease.
O'REILLY: I've been to Africa as you. I'm not as widely traveled as you, but it
is a corrupt continent, it's a continent in chaos. We can't deliver a lot of the
systems that we send there. Money is stolen.
Now, when you have a situation like that, where governments don't really perform
consistently, where there's just corruption everywhere, how can you cut through
that?
BONO: It's funny, we worked with this administration on two things. Historic AIDS
initiative, and a thing called the Millennium Challenge, which is a way of
increasing aide flows to Africa, but only to countries that are tackling
corruption. So really important, and not well described initiative.
O'REILLY: So like Uganda, which is really trying to do something, the money would
flow there.
BONO: Yes.
O'REILLY: But in Sierra Leone, wouldn't go there.
BONO: Exactly.
O'REILLY: OK. I like that. Because that, at least, gives you a chance. You know,
your friend, Bob Geldof you know.
BONO: Yes.
O'REILLY: Remember, he raised all that money with the Live Aid he did. Very
little of it got to anybody.
BONO: Well, look, I've seen what it did. I've been to Africa, I've seen -- it did
a lot. But the reason I got involved in this whole business that I'm in now is
largely to do with Live Aide, and it engaged me and engaged my generation to
realize that we actually -- we can't escape what's going on in Africa, and that
we have to look at sometimes the structural problems of the poverty of Africa.
And it's true, Live Aide, we made -- I think $200 million on the English side.
And we thought, wow, we've cracked it. What an amazing thing. And then we realize
that Africa pays $200 million every week on old debts that it was lent by -- you
know, for Cold War reasons, you know, during the Cold War to dodgy dictators, and
we were still collecting those debts, even though it was two generations later.
O'REILLY: Yes. And all the money in Switzerland with Mobutu and all these guys.
Now, let's talk a little AIDS.
BONO: But there was corruption there on our part. You don't understand that.
O'REILLY: I don't know if it was corruption.
BONO: Not just on their part.
O'REILLY: I don't think you guys understood what you were getting into in the
Live Aid situation. Oh, you mean there was corruption on the USA's part?
BONO: No, it wasn't just the U.S., but Europe, all the rich countries lending
this money willy-nilly and then demanding it back a generation later. It was just
a mistake.
O'REILLY: Let's talk about AIDS, because this is a very controversial topic
within the United States itself. Now, we've got the epidemic under control here,
primarily by education and frightening people into safe sex and all of that. In
Africa, the education is almost nil. And that there's a tradition of men, as you
know, not having sex protected, because of some kind of macho thing involved in
it.
Now, Americans are going to say, I don't want my tax dollars going over to a
civilization or a society that no matter what you tell them, they're going to
continue to do disruptive practices. How do you answer that?
BONO: Look, if you see a car crash, somebody's lying there in the middle of the
road bleeding and it turns out they're a drunk driver, you're still going to call
an ambulance. We can't make these judgments about entire civilizations. We try to
re-educate people, we try to deal with the problem.
And by the way, not dealing with the problem with something like AIDS, which
metastasized, which grows on a geometric level, is really foolhardy. Because it
will be more expensive to deal with it later.
O'REILLY: Look, you can't force the truck drivers who are spreading AIDS all over
Africa, because they visit the hookers and then they drive their truck from one
to the other to the other. You can't force them to use condoms.
BONO: Let me tell you something -- just on truck drivers. Because we did this
tour through the Midwest, because politicians in D.C. said Americans don't care
about what's happening in Africa. They don't care what's happening with this AIDS
stuff. We believe they were wrong.
We went all over, schools, you know, colleges, churches. I was in a truck stop,
and there was this big, big guy, big truck driver, tattoos over his eye, you
know, like a big, big guy. And he heard what we were talking about, and he
interrupted us and he said did you say that 50 percent of all truck drivers are
going blind, they've all got this death sentence of AIDS.
BONO: And I said yes, they had some stupid practices, but they're all going to
die. He says I don't want to pass judgment on people, they made mistakes. He said
if you need someone to drive trucks over there, you've got me.
O'REILLY: Well, Americans are very generous people. And I think it's the kids
that are -- that's my focus, it's the important children.
BONO: But we can't even judge mentalism, and we're not wrong in the statements
you've made to excuse our inaction. That's not going to fly...
O'REILLY: We have to take action that's...
BONO: God is not going to accept that as an answer and history is not going to
accept that as an answer.
O'REILLY: True. But action has to be efficient and people in the United States,
most of us, are struggling to make our own lives solvent, and to ask them to give
more money to people who aren't going to help themselves is foolhardy. But I do
agree we have to find a way. Why hasn't the United Nations -- why hasn't the
United Nations taken a more aggressive posture in fighting the AIDS epidemic
which they are cut out to do?
BONO: I don't think that's true. I mean, the Global Health Fund to fight T.B.,
AIDS and malaria was set up by Kofi Annan. And this administration is funding it,
it's actually got bipartisans...
O'REILLY: Do you think you're doing a good job over there?
BONO: No one's doing a good enough job. Let me just say this. I have myself seen
people queuing up to die, three in a bed, two on top, one underneath.
O'REILLY: Right.
BONO: People who don't want to even admit they have the virus, because it's such
a stigma. They say they've got T.B. When you see people dying like that, you
just -- these -- these -- you know, you put away all your -- you just want to
reach out and do the right thing. We have these drugs, these anti-retroviral
drugs are great advertisements for America...
O'REILLY: Now what do you want America to do?
BONO: Get the message because these are great advertisements for America
products. For your technology, your ingenuity. Imagine China, when Europe was
going through the Bubonic Plague and lost -- 1/3 of Europe died in the Middle
Ages to the Black Death. Imagine, say, China had a treatment for the Black Death
and hadn't because it was difficult or expensive. What would we think of China
now?
O'REILLY: You want American drug companies then to send to Africa all the drugs
they can possibly...
BONO: I'm not asking drug companies to behave like philanthropists. I'm saying
we, our governments, United States and Europe, have to deal with this problem. If
we don't, we will reap a very ill wind. This is -- it's not just being bleeding
hearts here. The strategic implications. There's 10 million AIDS orphans in
Africa right now. There will be 20 by the end of the decade. 12 right now. This
is chaos. This is a consummating (ph) havoc, and the war against terror, which
you talk about every night, is bound up in the war against poverty. I didn't say
that. Colin Powell said that.
O'REILLY: I agree.
BONO: And we have to join the dots here.
O'REILLY: Let me ask you this. We liberated Iraq from a terrible dictator, Saddam
Hussein. And the polls show that most Iraqis don't appreciate America's sacrifice
in doing that. Do you think Africans would appreciate if Americans actually, you
know, said, OK, we're going to suffer financially, we're going to do what you
want. Do you think we'd be appreciated even if we did it?
BONO: I think it would turn around the way the United States is seen in the world
right now. I think that's one thing as well as it just being this great -- this
awful thing. This is a chance for the United States to redescribe itself to the
rest of the world, show its greatness, and respond to what is the greatest health
emergency in 600 years. I absolutely believe that. And the people who are
watching this show, people all over America, they are more interested in this
than the politicians in D.C. realize. I know this from...
O'REILLY: But they've been helpful to you, the politicians in D.C.
BONO: Yes, they have. But they're not talking. It's not on the news. It's not on
the agenda here. It's the greatest health crisis in 600 years but it's not on the
news.
O'REILLY: But it's not their fault when you've got the war on terror so intense
and so -- look, if 9/11 didn't happen, you would have a much easier time with
your crusade.
BONO: I disagree.
O'REILLY: Really?
BONO: Yes. I disagree. Two things happened on 9/11. There was -- the one that's
reported, of course, is the attack on America. But the one that has not been
reported, and reported with less disgust, is what happened in the aftermath,
which was those pictures around the world of people jumping up and down,
celebrating the Twin Towers turning to dust. One of the most disturbing -- they
were the most disturbing images for me as a fan and a person who loves America.
A lot of people and this great country went. I don't care who you are, a
politician, you stop that. How did this happen to us? How did this -- and this is
the America that liberated Europe? Not just liberated Europe, we built Europe
with the Marshall Plan which cost, by the way, 1 percent GDP over four years.
That's when "Brand USA" was at its brightest.
Right now "Brand USA" has taken some blows and some knocks. And I'm saying
there's an opportunity here. The Marshall Plan rebuilds Europe as a bulwark
against Sovietism in the Cold War. It was smart. It wasn't just goodness of
heart, which it also was. It was smart. And I'm saying in a hot war, here's a
chance now to redescribe ourselves and be a bulwark against other militarism.
O'REILLY: And you believe that the world's negative opinion of America would
change if America took the lead to save people in Africa?
BONO: One hundred percent. They are. America is taking the lead.
O'REILLY: But more aggressively.
BONO: I have to say this. President Bush has done it, John Kerry is big on AIDS.
What we want here is to -- why is it not an emergency? How can three of these a
week, three Madison Square Gardens a week, how can -- you know, a giant stadium
every two weeks disappearing, you know, a preventable, treatable disease like
AIDS, how can that not be an emergency?
O'REILLY: Because those people aren't in our eye line. Look at Darfur in the
Sudan? I submit to you that in theory, you are correct. And I'm glad you're doing
what your doing by the way. I admire you greatly for doing it. But I think, in
practice, it becomes more complicated. And I think you're right. If the United
States got out in front of this, started to introduce U.N. resolutions, that's
the way to go. But the world really has to come together.
BONO: They will on this. See, this is a war -- this is winnable. There is
actually -- it's really winnable. There's more lives at stake. It's a war against
a tiny little virus, as Bill Frist says. But it's, in a way, it's the one we all
agree on. This is the one where the United States.
O'REILLY: Yes, who's going to say, 'Yes, I want the African kids to die.' Nobody.
It's just a matter of how engaged they're going to get. How much they're going to
feel. Because we, again, have problems here that we have to take care of.
BONO: I understand that.
O'REILLY: Let me ask you a couple of questions. I understand the late Jesse
Helms, the arch conservative, the late Jesse Helms of North Carolina was a very
big booster of your cause, is that correct?
BONO: Yes. It's been amazing. I've been really surprised. You know, I came at
this from -- you know, I grew up in a Labour household, you can imagine in the
north side of Dublin. I have all my opinions. I have my opinions of
conservatives, and they weren't all good. And then I met some conservatives that
really turned me around on that. They were really just conservatives. They were
people that will had their convictions that were different to mine, but they held
them, you know, from a true place.
Then I met Jesse Helms, who you know, who people in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) wouldn't
speak to me because I was meeting Jesse Helms. And he did an extraordinary thing.
He did something no politician does. He publicly apologized for the way he had
thought about the AIDS virus. He says, 'I've got it wrong.' And he got emotional
about it, and he turned it around. And he made a lot of other people who were
very judgmental about AIDS...
O'REILLY: Look at it in a different way.
BONO: ... look at it in a different way.
O'REILLY: And our pal John Kasich was a champion on the Hill when he was
congressman from Ohio, is that correct?
BONO: Well, absolutely. I mean, I arrived in Washington, D.C. with Bobby Shriver,
with a Kennedy, and I was trying to get this done. And somebody says, I think it
was Arnold Schwarzenegger said, you might need some other folks to balance it up.
O'REILLY: Right. You got it in John.
BONO: I meet John Kasich and it helps. And look, it's very difficult to work both
sides of the aisle. But I'm telling you, this is the one thing...
O'REILLY: That can bring everybody together.
BONO: It works for people.
O'REILLY: I like it, and I think it can be done. You're going to have to work
hard to get it done. Is that a rosary around your neck there? Is that a rosary?
BONO: The pope gave me this, it's a Michelangelo designed. You know, when the
pope could stand up and carry around this big cross, this is a little miniature
of him. And myself and Geldof and Quincy Jones went to see him, and he swapped a
pair of my sunglasses for a rosary.
O'REILLY: I've never seen the pope wear your sunglasses.
BONO: You know what, there was a lot of photographs taken at that moment, because
he put them on.
O'REILLY: Well, look, I mean...
BONO: One day you might.
O'REILLY: You're certainly doing God's work. I mean, I admire you very much for
what you're doing.
BONO: God must have a great sense of humor to have me on board.
O'REILLY: No. No. We need people like you to command a worldwide audience and to
get people at least thinking about this. And then we need the politicians out
here in the convention, in both conventions to come up with a strategy. I do
agree that if America could take the lead, it would turn public opinion around
and help us in the war on terror.
I’ll give you the last word on it.
BONO: It a really, really important time right now in the world. And I'm a fan of
America, and my band comes here and we love it here. But it’s dangerous around
the world. We travel around the world.
O’REILLY: Yes, it’s dangerous.
BONO: And my father grew up, and his generation grew up, and they thought they
were American, they loved it so much. And I would just ask Americans to think
back when was the brand brightest.? And I'll tell you when it was. As I said
earlier, the Marshall Plan, it cost 1 percent of the GDP. Right now the United
States is at 0.15 percent, and in the list of the richest countries and what they
give to the poorest as a percentage, they are No. 22 in the list…
O’REILLY: OK. Well, we’ve…
BONO: Including private philanthropy, it makes it like No. 15. This is a great
country, generous, generous, generous people. I think if they think the money is
not going to be wasted, if it’s not going down a rathole, they're with us.
O’REILLY: All right, Bono.
BONO: Thank you.
O’REILLY: Thanks for coming in, a pleasure to meet you.
BONO: All right.
Content and Programming Copyright 2004 Fox News Network, L.L.C. ALL RIGHTS
RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2004 eMediaMillWorks, Inc. (f/k/a Federal
Document Clearing House, Inc.), which takes sole responsibility for the accuracy
of the transcription. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of
this material except for the user's personal or internal use and, in such case,
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eMediaMillWorks, Inc.'s copyrights or other proprietary rights or interests in
the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131198,00.html
Actually it was researhed well and all the points are supportable with debatable
evidence.
>
Tim
>
> O'REILLY: OK. Well, we've.
I like the way you use the spotlight fallacy against me but don't point it
at Arnie or your own B.S. Real cunning and subtle that. Nice try smokee but
as usual you just get aroused, shut your eyes to reality, and blow smoke -
just like Arnie did.
Tim
No I just find most of your stuff to be wrong and I point it out to you.
Your failure lies in assuming that you are some authority - I don't
recognize you as such. Apparently you spend a lot of time researching what
I'm doing though - keep it up smokee maybe, just maybe, you'll learn
something.
Keynes
wrote:
>
>"Keynes" <Key...@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
>> Why not take it to alt.romance-novels ?
>> You are embarrassing yourself with this uncritical thinking,
>> this all-good all-bad dichotomy. It's just trashy prose and
>> does you no credit.
>>
>
>Actually it just happened and it is of some relation to political philosophy, but
>apparently not to your liking.
>
>What do you think though, when confronted with the very strong argument that the
>USA is definately better than the rest of the shit hole countries on Earth?
America is rich and powerful, but it isn't wise or fair.
Compared to Europe and Canada, we can hardly call the US civilized.
We have no sense of community or feeling of mutual obligation.
American freedom is interpreted to mean 'every man for himself',
and not 'women and children first'. We sincerely believe that the
strong should feast on the weak. Our murder and crime rates are higher.
Given a pretty good constitution the US could be a good country,
but natural born americans are all spoiled brats living on the investments
of their fathers. You can take the bill of rights out on the street and
you will not find many who agree with it, and damn few who will recognize
it as the US bill of rights. Naturalized citizens are far more aware of their
rights and responsibilities. Americans are basically uninformed and
disinterested.
Political activists at the highest level are completely venal. They want the
job, the money, the influence, the power, and they will get it by any means
necessary. The ends justify the means, so we see them lying and bending to the
popular winds only if they somehow fail to shape that wind to their liking.
Soviet Russia rewrote history on a daily basis. In America we don't need
to do that. We can just depend on our incredibly short attention span.
The current adiministration obstructs, stalls, opposes, and then gives in,
signing legislation they despise with a heroic flourish and demanding
credit for it. But then, administratively, they gut the legislation.
America began as an oligarchy of small competing fiefdoms intended to
balance their competing interests and somehow come out in the acceptible
middle. The political class was an elite of wealth, sometimes with good
intentions. The rise of monopolies of the robber barons nearly sank the
nation into corruption and collapse, but it recovered. Then corporations
became the political actors with immense financial power, and not a bit
of personal responsibility, due to a misreading of a legal decision that
declared corporations as 'persons', but without any accountability.
Behind the shield of legal unaccountability, corporations have bought
the government in order to write all the laws in their favor. Now crime
is not crime. It's perfectly legal. Corporations own the very air, and
use it to profit from broadcasting ads, and to shape the American
Mind to their own specifications. Who gave them the air?
Consolidation of mass media by the corporations has allowed them to
shape the agenda and control the public mind. What a person may know
at ground level is seldom broadcast to others who may need to know it.
So we are led to think that our own bad luck is just a fluke and not a trend.
Certain self-serving questions are asked, and others suppressed. The
public has been pavlovian conditioned to react negatively to buzzwords
keeping the agenda of the elite safe from 'dangerous' thoughts. We are
kept in the 'mainstream' where the manipulators want us to be, even if
that media river keeps changing it's shape unaccountably. The US media
trivializes everything by sensationalizing inconsequential events and
ignoring the important information that a good citizen needs to know.
It's done as a bow to the free market, giving the public what they want
and will pay for, whatever that may be -- circuses and bloodsports,
soap operas with 'real people', and flushable fluff. Don't miss the
"Eat a Bug Show".
Now we are having an election in war time where americans are being
killed daily, the dollar is losing 1/3 of it's value, government spending
depends on the kindness of foreign investors to cover the deficit, wages
are declining, jobs have vanished and are not being replaced, and the
whole election is supposed to boil down to whether a medal is a medal,
or 'who would you like to have a beer with?'.
Help. We have fallen down, and can't get up again.
Keynes
wrote:
It takes real chutzpah to admit that the entire world disagrees
with your position, and still call yourself the 'mainstream' and
not a stinking backwater.
Alex Russell
> The U.S. economy remains the envy of the world. We have the highest economic
> growth of any of the world's major industrialized nations. Don't you remember the
> pessimism of 20 years ago, when the critics said Japan and Germany are overtaking
> the U.S.? Ridiculous.
>
> Now, they say that India and China are overtaking us. Don't you believe it. We
> may hit a few bumps, but America always moves ahead. That's what Americans do.
>
> We move prosperity ahead.
>
> We move prosperity ahead. We move freedom ahead. And we move people ahead.
The USA is still ahead, but they are doing their best to stifle
invovation with absurd patent and copyright laws, embargos on "weapons"
like pentium computers, protectionism (softwood lumber tariff for
example). The USA talks about free trade and free enterprise but in fact
wield their current economic clout like a weapon when ever it will help
some congressman get re-elected.
Farming subsidies, and tarrifs on textiles hurt developing countries a
great deal.
>
> ...Terrorism is more insidious than Communism, because it yearns to destroy not
> just the individual, but the entire international order. ...George W. Bush
> ...knows you don't reason with terrorists. You defeat them. He knows you can't
> reason with people blinded by hate. You see, they hate the power of the
> individual. They hate the progress of women. They hate the religious freedom of
> others. And they hate the liberating breeze of democracy.
"Terrorism" has never threatened the "American way of life". While 9-11
was a terrible tradegy the USA loses more people to car accidents every
year and no one is waging war on "driving".
The current USA government has used terror as an excuse to expand its
powers, and is cynically using the "war on terror" to re-elect Bush.
In a previous war a USA president said, "the only thing we need fear is
fear itself", while the Bush government peddles fear as a tool to bully
through facsist laws, invasions, and propel a re-election campaign.
>
> But, ladies and gentlemen, their hate is no match for America's decency.
>
And the so called war on terror is being mismanged by Bush. Why is the
Saudi Osama still at large? Why has Afghanistan been virtually
abanonded? So that a country that never threatended the USA could be
invaded.
> We are the America that sends out the Peace Corps volunteers to teach our village
> children. We are the America that sends out the missionaries and doctors to raise
> up the poor and the sick.
>
> We are the America that gives more than any other country to fight AIDS in Africa
> and the developing world.
>
> And we are the America that fights not for imperialism, but for human rights and
> democracy.
The USA has a very mixed past. Yes, the USA has done many noble things,
but they have also made mistakes. I don't think propping up or
installing a number of right wing dictatorships was "fighting for
democracy".
>
> You know, when the Germans brought down the Berlin Wall, America's determination
> helped wield the sledgehammers. And when that lone, young Chinese man stood in
> front of those tanks in Tiananmen Square, America stood with him. And when Nelson
> Mandela smiled in election victory after all those years in prison, America
> celebrated, too.
Then they passed the patriot act so they could spy on their own
citizens, declared a large number of people "enemy combatants" and
denied them the basic rights that the USA should be upholding and
protecting - even when inconvienent.
>
> We are still the lamp lighting the world, especially those who struggle. No
> matter in what labor camp they slave, no matter in what injustice they're
> trapped, they hear our call. They see our light. And they feel the pull of our
> freedom.
The lamp went out when the USA invaded Iraq.
>
> They come here, as I did, because they believe -- they believe in us. They come
> because their hearts say to them, as mine did, "If only I can get to America."
> You know, someone once wrote, "There are those who say that freedom is nothing
> but a dream." They are right. It's the American dream.
There is no doubt that the USA is still a better place to live than
large parts of the world, and that people from many parts wish to move
to the USA. At the same time I think the USA needs to stop and review
how it is trying to handle terrorism. The current efforts are
counterproductive.
Alex Russell
Constantinople
news:ldlej0t46d141rit4...@4ax.com:
And who exactly are you referring to by "you"? Me? Arnold? Michael Moore?
And exactly what position are you referring to? Your unclear, unspecific
charges are a bane of Usenet discourse, and also likely a problem in your
own thinking (i.e., it's likely that you don't even have clear in your own
head what you meant and will have to come up with something before
replying).
Constantinople
news:0DIZc.60606$jZ5.54837@clgrps13:
> Immortalist wrote:
>
>> The U.S. economy remains the envy of the world. We have the highest
>> economic growth of any of the world's major industrialized nations.
>> Don't you remember the pessimism of 20 years ago, when the critics
>> said Japan and Germany are overtaking the U.S.? Ridiculous.
>>
>> Now, they say that India and China are overtaking us. Don't you
>> believe it. We may hit a few bumps, but America always moves ahead.
>> That's what Americans do.
>>
>> We move prosperity ahead.
>>
>> We move prosperity ahead. We move freedom ahead. And we move people
>> ahead.
>
> The USA is still ahead, but they are doing their best to stifle
> invovation with absurd patent and copyright laws, embargos on
> "weapons" like pentium computers, protectionism (softwood lumber
> tariff for example). The USA talks about free trade and free
> enterprise but in fact wield their current economic clout like a
> weapon when ever it will help some congressman get re-elected.
>
> Farming subsidies, and tarrifs on textiles hurt developing countries a
> great deal.
They do this only because we are so great. If we were smaller, then
politics-as-usual would harm developing countries less.
Nor do I think we are special in regard to politics-as-usual, or if we
are special, it is that we have *less* government interference in the
economy than most other countries, as a proportion to our size.
You evidently believe that government interference in the economy is bad,
since you go on about patents and tariffs and subsidies. Right? That it
harms the economy. That it harms a country's own economy more than it
harms the economies of other countries - I would presume. And yet, the US
has tremendous economic clout - as you acknowledge. But if you believe
that government interference harms an economy, then the economic clout of
the US must be a result of there being sufficiently *little* government
interference for the economy to remain strong.
When people consider investing in foreign countries, what is their
primary concern? What is their primary fear? What causes them to
hesitate? Is it that they fear US tariffs?
In my (admittedly limited) experience: no. What people fear is the local
situation. They fear local lawlessness: primarily, the lawlessness of the
local government. This is what investors fear, and it is also what
travellers fear. That is not the fault of the US, and that is what is
primarily harming other countries. The problems of the different parts of
the world are primarily local.
Constantinople
news:o7hej010l2fbtvleo...@4ax.com:
> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 08:26:22 -0700, "Immortalist"
> <Reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Keynes" <Key...@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
>
>>> Why not take it to alt.romance-novels ?
>>> You are embarrassing yourself with this uncritical thinking,
>>> this all-good all-bad dichotomy. It's just trashy prose and
>>> does you no credit.
>>>
>>
>>Actually it just happened and it is of some relation to political
>>philosophy, but apparently not to your liking.
>>
>>What do you think though, when confronted with the very strong
>>argument that the USA is definately better than the rest of the shit
>>hole countries on Earth?
>
> America is rich and powerful, but it isn't wise or fair.
> Compared to Europe and Canada, we can hardly call the US civilized.
Europe had two great wars. It was the scene of both The Great War and
WWII. And of course many other wars. As was, of course, the rest of the
world (host to many bloody wars throughout history). So nobody really has
all that strong a claim to being "civilized". Now, you can try to make
the claim about being civilized by clearly defining what you mean by it.
> We have no sense of community or feeling of mutual obligation.
Not true. If you mean it in a relative sense (i.e., that we have less
sense of mutual obligation than Europeans) then where is the direct
evidence of this. Usually what I hear about (when I hear about the
spiritual superiority of Europeans) is something indirect and
unconvincing, like the argument that a free market economy is evidence
that the people are evil, and government controls on the economy are a
sign of the goodness of the people.
> American freedom is interpreted to mean 'every man for himself',
> and not 'women and children first'.
I'm afraid you're just blowing wind out of your ass.
> We sincerely believe that the
> strong should feast on the weak.
More wind out of the ass.
> Our murder and crime rates are
> higher.
See, that's what I mean when I talk about unconvincing evidence. You
interpret a high crime rate in a highly tendentious, almost an arbitrary
manner. No one need take you seriously. I don't take you seriously.
Tim
Wow it still amazes me how stupid you are. You spend an inordinate amount of
time cutting and pasting - out of that time a good portion usually deals
with 'logic' and fallacies of reason. And here you call the shit above a
"very strong argument". You couldn't argue your way out of a wet paper bag.
You say the "USA is definately better than the rest of the shit hole
countries on Earth" - therfore the U.S.A is the best shit hole in the world.
That's good smokee - but why are you bragging?
Keynes
wrote:
That's obvious. You belittle and snip.
You are dishonest and shallow, but you are entitled to make
cogent arguments like "more wind out of the ass".
I've got no time for unfortunate victims of Rectal-cranial disease.
So shut your eyes as you enter the shit list pool.
Plonk.
Constantinople
news:emvej0herrtc4reqi...@4ax.com:
No, I made valid points. You make highly contentious statements, and then
to back them up you present extremely weak evidence, interpreted by means
of vast leaps of logic (e.g., the leap connecting the crime rate with an
alleged American belief that the strong should feast on the weak).
You are the one making extreme claims about the US. It is your job to
back them up. It is my job to point out that they are not compelling as
they stand.
> You are dishonest and shallow, but you are entitled to make
> cogent arguments like "more wind out of the ass".
You are making foolish and extreme generalizations about the US with very
little evidence (at least, very little evidence in evidence). If your
statements do not qualify for the description "wind out of the ass", then
nothing does.
> I've got no time for unfortunate victims of Rectal-cranial disease.
> So shut your eyes as you enter the shit list pool.
>
> Plonk.
Now there goes a guy who would be happier with a blog. A blog without a
comments section, that is.
shikantaza
> Or do you question the status of the USA as number one in everything
> right now?
The U.S. is certainly number one in terrorism and murder.
G*rd*n
> > Or do you question the status of the USA as number one in everything
> > right now?
shikantaza <em...@email.email>:
> The U.S. is certainly number one in terrorism and murder.
There are people who like that. But does the U.S. really really
rate as #1 on a _per_capita_ basis? I doubt it.
--
(<><>) /*/
}"{ G*rd*n }"{ g...@panix.com }"{
{ http://www.etaoin.com | latest new material 5/10/04 <-adv't
Constantinople
Whatever. Meanwhile true evil is escalating. What happened in Beslan
goes even beyond what happened on 9/11 - not in scale, but in target.
Humanity is exploring the lowest depths of depravity. I can't help but
notice that the trailblazers are Muslim.
James A. Donald
On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 02:54:02 GMT, Constantinople
> Meanwhile true evil is escalating. What happened in Beslan
> goes even beyond what happened on 9/11 - not in scale, but in
> target. Humanity is exploring the lowest depths of depravity.
> I can't help but notice that the trailblazers are Muslim.
Some muslims appear to be shocked, and argue the offenders
should be punished. It is far from clear that a majority of
Muslims feel like this. The best gauge of Muslim opinion is
probably Al Jazeerah, which today reported with shock and
horror that civilians were killed in Fallujah by US bombing,
but failed to mention that terrorist groups in Fallujah had
killed large numbers of civilians, and evinced no shock and
horror at the Russian siege - no doubts, no concerns.
Of course, one can only assess public opinion in democracy,
and the only large Muslim democracy is Indonesia. (Turkey is
theoretically a democracy, but the Turkish army limits the
expression of Muslim politics) In Indonesia, it seems that a
majority oppose any punishment for Muslim terrorists striking
at infidels, which casts considerable doubt on the Bush program
of introducing democracy in the muslim world. Seems to me we
need a lot less democracy in the Muslim world, rather than
more.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
vZ+GEtKL/CKSzlGVhwhQ4qeg26Y3stVX3dLgKp85
4NpoQ9e5sL6etndrA0abH3e3jRJaEnHaF+uyEAqMR
Chzwmn
A great man once said that American politicians never got anywhere by
overestimating the American people. He was right: the best way to get votes is
th appeal to the most base instincts and gut reactions of the electorate. Bush
will win again because (despite being a draft dodger) he appears to be a
shootinist rootinest tootinist gun totin' tough guy who will shoot first and
hope no -one will ask questions later..
Never mind the economy. Never mind the destruction of the welfare and support
networks; health care and education. Bush and a small proportion of the
population will be unimaginably rich whilst the American economy descends into
a banana republic filled with poor, uneducated and cheap labour who can work as
house servants to those in protected environments with high fences and security
guards.
That is the future of the USA - learn to live with it!
Chzwmn
>
>You need to get a life and stop analyzing everything. You are making
>yourself unhappy.
True..
Chzwmn
>There's an insular crowd set off from mainstream America. From the point
>of view of that crowd, Michael Moore is fantastic, very "in". Recall
>that he had a place of honor at the Democratic Convention. Recall that
>his movie won the Cannes award - and going by the identity of the judges
>I would guess that that endorsement represents the combined endorsement
>of some group of Europeans, and the Hollywood crowd. Neither of them
>mainstream America, both of them, I'm sure, pretty cut off from
>mainstream America. To them, Michael Moore evidently is the man of the hour.
Yes Michael Moore is a breath of fresh air in a dirty political world. So is Al
Franken. But it's too late. Their words are like farting in the wind.
Chzwmn
Chzwmn
No 1 in murder
No. 1 in prison population.
No. 1 in Illiteracy rate in developed countries.
Chzwmn
>goes even beyond what happened on 9/11 - not in scale, but in target.
>Humanity is exploring the lowest depths of depravity. I can't help but
>notice that the trailblazers are Muslim.
I can't help but notice the lack of solidarity from the US with the Russian
government on "war on terror"
Thought for the day.
1 Most terrorists are Muslim
2 Most muslims are not terrorists
3 Most muslims do not support the slaying of naked children
Chzwmn
provision of health and education.
THe role of government is to provide business with a healthy and educated
workforce.
As there is a natural tendancy in capitalist systems to polarise wealth: so
that ultimately (without intervention) one person will control all wealth and
the rest would rely on that person's distributing the wealth downwards, it is
necessary for democratic governments to tax the rich more that the poor to
provide health and education to those that would not otherwise be able to
afford it.
Those most in need of education are children. CHildren have no wealth. People
need education BEFORE they have to ability to pay for it themsleves. As family
structure has been shaken over the last few decades, and there have always bee
children whose parents were incapable or unwilling to provide for them, it is
the duty of government NOW more than EVER to provide education and health care
for its citizens. The USA is cutting this provision.
Elections are being won on the promise of less taxes, less welfare. Sadly the
average American seems to short sighted to look beyond his/her next pay packet,
whilst ignoring the widescale tax fraud and corporate tax benefits bestowed on
the rich. Wake up !!!
zepp
<jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> --
>On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 02:54:02 GMT, Constantinople
>> Meanwhile true evil is escalating. What happened in Beslan
>> goes even beyond what happened on 9/11 - not in scale, but in
>> target. Humanity is exploring the lowest depths of depravity.
>> I can't help but notice that the trailblazers are Muslim.
Horrific as Beslan is, there's ample precedent to show that
Christianity cannot take the moral high ground. Hitler felt he was
doing the Lord's work when he murdered 12 million men, women and
children. Cromwell was the ultimate servant of God when he wiped out
a third of Ireland, mostly children. American's claimed manifest
destiny at the hand of God when they deliberately gave smallpox to the
Indians, wiping out entire tribes.
If you want to say that organized religion prompts people to commit
hideous and despicable acts, feel free. But don't try to say it's
limited to just one religion.
>
>Some muslims appear to be shocked, and argue the offenders
>should be punished. It is far from clear that a majority of
>Muslims feel like this. The best gauge of Muslim opinion is
>probably Al Jazeerah, which today reported with shock and
>horror that civilians were killed in Fallujah by US bombing,
>but failed to mention that terrorist groups in Fallujah had
>killed large numbers of civilians, and evinced no shock and
>horror at the Russian siege - no doubts, no concerns.
>
>Of course, one can only assess public opinion in democracy,
>and the only large Muslim democracy is Indonesia. (Turkey is
>theoretically a democracy, but the Turkish army limits the
>expression of Muslim politics) In Indonesia, it seems that a
>majority oppose any punishment for Muslim terrorists striking
>at infidels, which casts considerable doubt on the Bush program
>of introducing democracy in the muslim world. Seems to me we
>need a lot less democracy in the Muslim world, rather than
>more.
>
> --digsig
> James A. Donald
> 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
> vZ+GEtKL/CKSzlGVhwhQ4qeg26Y3stVX3dLgKp85
> 4NpoQ9e5sL6etndrA0abH3e3jRJaEnHaF+uyEAqMR
-
"It struck me as I was speaking to people in Bangor, Maine,
that this president sees America as we think about a 10-year-old
child," -- Andrew Card, ranking member of the West Wing
This confirms that all our right wing folks who made all kinds of
individualistic and anti-government grunts and honks during the 90s really
just want a government that is a cross between Jehovah and daddy.
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
James A. Donald
zepp
> Horrific as Beslan is, there's ample precedent to show that
> Christianity cannot take the moral high ground. Hitler felt
> he was doing the Lord's work when he murdered 12 million men,
> women and children.
Well if you want to argue that Islam is equivalent to Nazism, I
will buy that.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
bX9zm/UyC2e+38BgRmn3UhRnnxl0wozcxk/Mhxjg
4hFPrXjPuAz3oQrqjs0hh6x/ryrOwnghJWjAPJzJ8
Immortalist
"Chzwmn" <chz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040908055855...@mb-m06.aol.com...
You mean we need to learn to live with your pessimism is more like it for, like
the little boy who cried wolf, we are acclimated and habituated to you periods
without tampons. The USA is number one in most everything and you are not
prepared to admit some simple facts because of your left ideology which trips you
on the way to the dispenser.
Immortalist
> >> yourself up in a pecking order by pushing other people down.
> >
> >You need to get a life and stop analyzing everything. You are making
> >yourself unhappy.
>
> True..
>
> Arnold Schwarzenegger is what the American people deserve.
> A great man once said that American politicians never got anywhere by
> overestimating the American people. He was right: the best way to get votes is
> th appeal to the most base instincts and gut reactions of the electorate. Bush
> will win again because (despite being a draft dodger) he appears to be a
> shootinist rootinest tootinist gun totin' tough guy who will shoot first and
> hope no -one will ask questions later..
> Never mind the economy. Never mind the destruction of the welfare and support
> networks; health care and education.
What you call destruction is just an increase or a decrease. Its a matter of
degree not different kinds. You would call the ups and downs of an ocean wave
destruction when you pessimism and cynicism are painting a fearful picture where
none is required. You don't want a decrease so you demonize it as a "kind" of
destruction? Surely there must be increases and decreases wherever you are at, do
you label them with such temerity?
Immortalist
These exaggerated sentiments, harbored in the activities of your neurons, are in
fact what you deserve. It is humerous listening to your descriptions of them. You
torment yourself with a strange veiw of the world.
Immortalist
Therefore most Muslims should stop being cowards and ruthlessly slaughter most
terrorists?
Immortalist
> The only thing that distinguishes the first world with the third world is the
> provision of health and education.
> THe role of government is to provide business with a healthy and educated
> workforce.
> As there is a natural tendancy in capitalist systems to polarise wealth: so
> that ultimately (without intervention) one person will control all wealth and
> the rest would rely on that person's distributing the wealth downwards, it is
> necessary for democratic governments to tax the rich more that the poor to
> provide health and education to those that would not otherwise be able to
> afford it.
Mixed Economies
Somewhere between the complete laissez-faire capitalism of the market economy and
the strict central controls of the command economy lie the territories of the
mixed economies. In practice, every economy in the world is some form of a mixed
economy, but there are vast differences between them in terms of how much of each
economic theory they support. Generally, however, mixed economies will have
areas that are public (closest in principle to the command economy) and areas
that are private (most similar to a market economy).
Private Sector
These are areas of a nation's economy that are left to the self-regulating
devices of the market economy. If the government is involved in this sector at
all, it is only to function as a referee (to ensure fair competition between all
competitors). In Canada, many areas of the economy are within the private
sector. A quick trip to the mall will expose us to competition, profit motive,
entrepreneurs, privately owned land, labor and capital, and the laws of supply
and demand.
Public Sector
These are areas of a nation's economy deemed too important or not profitable
enough to be left to the private sector. Governments in mixed economies will get
involved in the production of some goods or services in order to guarantee
essential services to all citizens or to try and encourage private interest in
the economy. In Canada, services like public transportation and postal service
are examples of areas deemed too important to all citizens to leave to the
instabilities of the marketplace. Recently, in a wave of privatizations (selling
public sector companies to private owners), services like telephone companies,
liquor stores and registry services have been taken from the public sector and
placed in the private sector.
http://www.cssd.ab.ca/tech/social/tut9/lesson_25.htm
Once again you falsly state that the USA is a capitalist country when in fact it
is a mixed economy and mixed republic.
Immortalist
Are you responding directly to me? Did I give you permission? Son do you realize
what might happen to your ego if you partake in a conversation with me. Do you
want to torture suicide bomers before they get the bombs on to see how long it is
till they cry for their mommy again?
>
Immortalist
> No 1 on murder in a per capita basis
No 1. And don't you fucking forget it.
Constantinople
news:ls1uj054voiq2mmgu...@4ax.com:
> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:51:20 -0700, James A. Donald
> <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>
>> --
>>On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 02:54:02 GMT, Constantinople
>>> Meanwhile true evil is escalating. What happened in Beslan goes even
>>> beyond what happened on 9/11 - not in scale, but in target. Humanity
>>> is exploring the lowest depths of depravity. I can't help but notice
>>> that the trailblazers are Muslim.
>
> Horrific as Beslan is, there's ample precedent to show that
> Christianity cannot take the moral high ground.
Since I'm not a Christian but an atheist, it hardly matters to my point
whether Christianity can take the moral high ground. Moreover, whether
or not there were Christian evils in the past, the current state of the
world is what ought to concern us who are living in it right now, and in
this current state, the trailblazers are Muslim.
zepp
You think?
How many Iraqis have died as a consequence of Putsch's unprevoked
attack? How many were children?
>
James A. Donald
> 1 Most terrorists are Muslim
> 2 Most muslims are not terrorists
> 3 Most muslims do not support the slaying of naked children
Nor do they seem terribly upset by the slaying of naked children. I
checked out english translation of Al Jazeera. Seemed to think that
bombing terrorists in Fallujah was a crime against humanity, because
many innocent civilians were in the way, but targetting children was
business as usual.
Constantinople
news:jgeuj09r9fg8khvdk...@4ax.com:
Had the murderers aimed a bomb at Putin's house, missed, and hit the
Beslan school instead, then you would have had the same body count, the
same number of children. But it would not have been depraved.
It is not depraved to try to kill Putin, miss, and kill a school full of
children instead. Accidents are not depraved. Depravity requires
intention.
It is depraved to hold a school full of children hostage, and then to
murder as many of them as possible, shooting children in the back as
they flee.
James A. Donald
On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 01:18:21 GMT, Constantinople
> I keep assuming everyone knows what I know, has read what
> I've read. Maybe not. Anyway, here's one Iraqi perspective on
> the Americans in Iraq. Of course I already know who will
> reject this as so much shit because it conflicts with the
> Iraqi script that they composed in their heads long before
> Americans set foot in Baghdad. But here is this alternative
> view:
>
> http://messopotamian.blogspot.com/2004_08_01_messopotamian_ar
> chive.html#109320327690925450
Probably he does represent majority Iraqi opinion - as he
points out, Sadr seems none to keen to submit his power to the
vote.
Trouble is that what is now Iraq has for five thousand years
been ruled by violent men. Iraqis expect someone like Sadr to
rule, so tend to bow down before whoever murders the most
people.
Even in advanced countries, people tend to vote badly. In
muslim countries they tend to vote very badly. A genuinely
free election will probably get us a government reasonably
sympathetic to the USA, but is likely to produce a government
both Muslim and socialist - Baathism lite. The Iraqi economy
is and will be permanently collapsed because there is
insufficient terror to make socialism work, and insufficient
support for property rights and freedom of trade to make
capitalism work. Oil revenues will be dissipated in socialist
waste, and people will complain of unending economic collapse,
to be remedied by absurdly large amounts of US aid. That
genuinely democratic, reasonably pro US government, is likely
to be permanently in trouble not very different from its
present troubles.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
2/+RwOscN9mWtoshdkzUOCrbkzrYNY8/u4m2R+mj
4FhrzH35ngXIdp2hHj9agl7KFQK7Mu8Dd1ZdMEPoZ
BUSH=TERRORIST
<jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> --
>On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 02:54:02 GMT, Constantinople
>> Meanwhile true evil is escalating. What happened in Beslan
>> goes even beyond what happened on 9/11 - not in scale, but in
>> target. Humanity is exploring the lowest depths of depravity.
>> I can't help but notice that the trailblazers are Muslim.
>
>Some muslims appear to be shocked, and argue the offenders
>should be punished. It is far from clear that a majority of
>Muslims feel like this. The best gauge of Muslim opinion is
>probably Al Jazeerah, which today reported with shock and
>horror that civilians were killed in Fallujah by US bombing,
>but failed to mention that terrorist groups in Fallujah had
>killed large numbers of civilians, and evinced no shock and
>horror at the Russian siege - no doubts, no concerns.
>
>Of course, one can only assess public opinion in democracy,
>and the only large Muslim democracy is Indonesia. (Turkey is
>theoretically a democracy, but the Turkish army limits the
>expression of Muslim politics) In Indonesia, it seems that a
>majority oppose any punishment for Muslim terrorists striking
>at infidels,
>
Bush calls anyone who fights the US to prevent them from
stealing Iraq and it's oil a "terrorist".
If for example China illegally invaded the US, and the American
people fought to prevent them from stealing this country, are
American's "terrorists ? " If the couple of allies America has
left were to aid American's to fight off China, are they
"terrorists" as well ?
Bush and the US government, according to the definition of
a terrorist, are the only ones who qualify.
Definition of " TERRORIST" :
"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or
violence by a person or an organized group against
people or property with the intention of intimidating
or coercing societies or governments, often for
ideological or political reasons. "
Definition of " Ideological "
" a theory, or set of beliefs or principles, especially
one on which a political system, party or organization
is based : socialist/capitalist ideology "
WHEN MAN SACRAFICES THE LOVE OF POWER,
FOR THE POWER OF LOVE, ONLY THEN WILL
THERE WILL BE PEACE ON EARTH.
BUSH=TERRORIST
wrote:
>On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:51:20 -0700, James A. Donald
><jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>
>> --
>>On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 02:54:02 GMT, Constantinople
>>> Meanwhile true evil is escalating. What happened in Beslan
>>> goes even beyond what happened on 9/11 - not in scale, but in
>>> target. Humanity is exploring the lowest depths of depravity.
>>> I can't help but notice that the trailblazers are Muslim.
>
>Horrific as Beslan is, there's ample precedent to show that
>Christianity cannot take the moral high ground. Hitler felt he was
>doing the Lord's work when he murdered 12 million men, women and
>children. Cromwell was the ultimate servant of God when he wiped out
>a third of Ireland, mostly children. American's claimed manifest
>destiny at the hand of God when they deliberately gave smallpox to the
>Indians, wiping out entire tribes.
>
Bush purchased 25 million experimental anthrax vaccines, being
fully aware of the countless deaths, and major health problems in
young, healthy adults it has already caused.
Under homeland security, a bill was passed giving the government
the authority to force people to take these potentially lethal
vaccines if they refuse. It's also a felony if you refuse, and you
will be fined. What has this bill got to do with fighting terrorism ?
Absolutely nothing. But it does have something to do with your
right not to take a vaccine that could quite possibly kill you,
or cause major health problems you can pay high medical bills
for, and pain and suffering the rest of your life.
Under the Patriot Act, no one can sue the government for anything
the experimental anthrax vaccine may cause. They can force you
to take their potentially lethal vaccine, but you don't have any
rights to sue them for damages it may cause, or your family can't
sue because their vaccine killed you ? What has this clause got
to do with fighting terrorism ?
With Bush Sr being one of the most prejudice sub humans on the
planet, like Hitler, wanting an all white world, I'm betting these
vaccines are even more lethal than those given in the past, with
Bush planning on targeting Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, elderly etc.
What better way to exterminate millions, blaming it on an anthrax
attack that won't really exist. Just the propaganda that it does.
Only 15 million of the roughly 300 million doses of the smallpox
vaccine the government has or has ordered are licensed. White
House officials said they are reluctant to use unlicensed vaccines
in a non-emergency situation.
Why would you order non-licensed to begin with ? It's not as though
there's any emergency or rush to have the vaccine immediately on
hand.
People had better start waking up and questioning just what the
hell is going on, as their lives may very well depend on it.
Chzwmn
roundingly condemning the actions of the terrorists in Beslan, whilst
conducting his own terror campaign on the peole of Iraq
Chzwmn
>Trouble is that what is now Iraq has for five thousand years
>been ruled by violent men. Iraqis expect someone like Sadr to
>rule, so tend to bow down before whoever murders the most
>people.
What utter and complete bullshit!!! From a child of a 200 year old nation that
knows nothing of history - Total fuckwit!
Constantinople
"BUSH=TERRORIST" <news...@11.com> wrote in message
news:mk20k01t00i1csjkk...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:51:20 -0700, James A. Donald
> <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>
>> --
>>On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 02:54:02 GMT, Constantinople
>>> Meanwhile true evil is escalating. What happened in Beslan
>>> goes even beyond what happened on 9/11 - not in scale, but in
>>> target. Humanity is exploring the lowest depths of depravity.
>>> I can't help but notice that the trailblazers are Muslim.
>>
>>Some muslims appear to be shocked, and argue the offenders
>>should be punished. It is far from clear that a majority of
>>Muslims feel like this. The best gauge of Muslim opinion is
>>probably Al Jazeerah, which today reported with shock and
>>horror that civilians were killed in Fallujah by US bombing,
>>but failed to mention that terrorist groups in Fallujah had
>>killed large numbers of civilians, and evinced no shock and
>>horror at the Russian siege - no doubts, no concerns.
>>
>>Of course, one can only assess public opinion in democracy,
>>and the only large Muslim democracy is Indonesia. (Turkey is
>>theoretically a democracy, but the Turkish army limits the
>>expression of Muslim politics) In Indonesia, it seems that a
>>majority oppose any punishment for Muslim terrorists striking
>>at infidels,
>>
> Bush calls anyone who fights the US to prevent them from
> stealing Iraq and it's oil a "terrorist".
Anyone who is fighting to prevent the US from stealing Iraq may or may not
be a terrorist, but he is in either case a fool, since the US is no more
stealing Iraq then it stole Japan.
Those fighting American forces however are not fighting to prevent the US
from stealing Iraq. They no doubt have a variety of reasons. And there are
terrorists in Iraq.
Here's a muslim saying what I pointed out a moment ago, i.e., he says, "It
is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally
certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims":
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/190001_muslimterror09.html
Terror in Islam's name deplored
Commentators lament 'abduction' of a religion of peace
Thursday, September 9, 2004
By JOHN KIFNER
THE NEW YORK TIMES
BEIRUT, Lebanon -- The brutal school siege in Russia, with hundreds of
children dead and wounded, has touched off an unusual round of
self-criticism and introspection in the Muslim and Arab world.
"It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally
certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims,"
Abdel Rahman al-Rashed, the general manager of the widely watched satellite
television station Al-Arabiya said in one of the most striking of these
commentaries.
Writing in the pan-Arab newspaper Al Sharq al Awsat, Rashed said it was
"shameful and degrading" that not only were the Beslan hijackers Muslims,
but so were the killers of Nepalese workers in Iraq; the attackers of
residential towers in Riyadh and Khobar, Saudi Arabia; the women believed to
have blown up two Russian airplanes last week; and Osama bin Laden himself.
"The majority of those who manned the suicide bombings against buses,
vehicles, schools, houses and buildings, all over the world, were Muslim,"
he wrote. "What a pathetic record. What an abominable 'achievement.' Does
this tell us anything about ourselves, our societies and our culture?"
Rashed, like several other commentators, singled out Sheik Yusuf
al-Qaradawi, a senior Egyptian cleric living in Qatar who broadcasts an
influential program on al-Jazeera television and who has issued a fatwa, or
religious ruling, calling for the killing of U.S. and foreign "occupiers" in
Iraq, both military and civilian.
"Let us contemplate the incident of this religious sheik allowing, nay even
calling for, the murder of civilians," he wrote. "How can we believe him
when he tells us that Islam is the religion of mercy and peace while he is
turning it into a religion of blood and slaughter?"
Rashed recalled that in the past, leftists and nationalists in the Arab
world were considered a "menace" for their adoption of violence, and the
mosque was a haven of "peace and reconciliation" by contrast.
"Then came the neo-Muslims," he said. "An innocent and benevolent religion,
whose verses prohibit the felling of trees in the absence of urgent
necessity, that calls murder the most heinous of crimes, that says
explicitly that if you kill one person you have killed humanity as a whole,
has been turned into a global message of hate and a universal war cry."
In Jordan, a group of Muslim religious figures, meeting with the religious
affairs minister, Ahmed Heleil, issued a statement yesterday saying the
seizing of the school and subsequent massacre "was dedicated to distorting
the pure image of Islam."
In the Jordanian daily Ad Dustour, columnist Bater Wardam noted the
propensity in the Arab world to "place responsibility for the crimes of
Arabic and Muslim terrorist organizations on the Mossad, the Zionists and
the American intelligence, but we all know that this is not the case."
"They came from our midst," he wrote of those who had kidnapped and killed
civilians in Iraq, blown up commuter trains in Spain, turned airliners into
bombs and shot the children in Ossetia.
"They are Arabs and Muslims who pray, fast, grow beards, demand the wearing
of veils and call for the defense of Islamic causes," he said. "Therefore we
must all raise our voices, disown them and oppose all these crimes."
In Beirut, Rami Khouri, editor of the Daily Star, wrote that while most
Arabs "identified strongly and willingly" with armed Palestinian or Lebanese
guerrillas fighting Israeli occupation, "all of us today are dehumanized and
brutalized by the images of Arabs kidnapping and beheading foreign
hostages."
Calling for a global strategy to reduce terror, he traced what he called
"this ugly trek" in the Arab world to "the home-grown sense of indignity,
humiliation, denial and degradation that has increasingly plagued many of
our young men and women."
In Saudi Arabia, newspapers tightly controlled by the government -- which
finds itself under attack from Islamic fundamentalists -- were even more
scathing.
Under the headline "Butchers in the Name of Allah," a columnist in the
government daily Okaz, Khaled Hamed al-Suleiman, wrote that "the
propagandists of jihad succeeded in the span of a few years in distorting
the image of Islam."
"The time has come for Muslims to be the first to come out against those
interested in abducting Islam in the same way they abducted innocent
children," he added.
© 1998-2004 Seattle Post-Intelligencer
James A. Donald
<constan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <* US *> wrote in message
> news:8a91k0pr3eneavb7i...@4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:59:55 GMT, "Constantinople"
> > <constan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >>... And there are terrorists in Iraq...
> >
> > Well, until the Bush mob is forced out, anyway ...
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3631826.stm
>
I am hugely impressed that in the middle of a war, most people
are more prosperous, and freedom has increased. This sounds
like victory.
Of course victory will not necessarily achieve the intended
goals, but defeat would have been disastrous.
G*rd*n
>>>>>> Meanwhile true evil is escalating. What happened in Beslan goes
>>>>>> even beyond what happened on 9/11 - not in scale, but in target.
>>>>>> Humanity is exploring the lowest depths of depravity. I can't help
>>>>>> but notice that the trailblazers are Muslim.
zepp <zeppn...@finestplanet.com>:
>>>> Horrific as Beslan is, there's ample precedent to show that
>>>> Christianity cannot take the moral high ground.
Constantinople <constan...@yahoo.com>:
>>>Since I'm not a Christian but an atheist, it hardly matters to my
>>>point whether Christianity can take the moral high ground. Moreover,
>>>whether or not there were Christian evils in the past, the current
>>>state of the world is what ought to concern us who are living in it
>>>right now, and in this current state, the trailblazers are Muslim.
zepp <ze...@zeppscommentaries.com>:
> > You think?
> >
> > How many Iraqis have died as a consequence of Putsch's unprevoked
> > attack? How many were children?
Constantinople <constan...@yahoo.com>:
> Had the murderers aimed a bomb at Putin's house, missed, and hit the
> Beslan school instead, then you would have had the same body count, the
> same number of children. But it would not have been depraved.
>
> It is not depraved to try to kill Putin, miss, and kill a school full of
> children instead. Accidents are not depraved. Depravity requires
> intention.
>
> It is depraved to hold a school full of children hostage, and then to
> murder as many of them as possible, shooting children in the back as
> they flee.
Before assigning depravity points, one might want to reflect
that the main difference between ordering the bombing of a
city (e.g. Belgrade or Baghdad) when it is obvious that many
noncombatants will be killed, and killing them directly, is
one of dissimulation. Maybe we should demand that terrorists
and other murderers dissimulate more, as our legitimate
political leaders do, when they go about their business? But
sometimes even the most respectable officials do not dissimulate,
as when Secretary Albright said killing half a million Iraqi
children would be "worth it", "it" being some political goal
or other. In Timothy McVeigh's words, they were "collateral
damage".
In any case, the distinction between the most legitimated
statecraft and the most depraved terrorism is once again
proving very permeable (as it has so often in the past), as
the appended story indicates.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The Chechens' American Friends
==============================
The Washington neocons' commitment to the war on terror
evaporates in Chechnya, whose cause they have made
their own
By John Laughland
The Guardian (UK)
September 8, 2004
An enormous head of steam has built up behind the view
that President Putin is somehow the main culprit in the
grisly events in North Ossetia. Soundbites and
headlines such as "Grief turns to anger", "Harsh words
for government", and "Criticism mounting against Putin"
have abounded, while TV and radio correspondents in
Beslan have been pressed on air to say that the people
there blame Moscow as much as the terrorists. There
have been numerous editorials encouraging us to
understand - to quote the Sunday Times - the
"underlying causes" of Chechen terrorism (usually
Russian authoritarianism), while the widespread use of
the word "rebels" to describe people who shoot children
shows a surprising indulgence in the face of extreme
brutality.
On closer inspection, it turns out that this so-called
"mounting criticism" is in fact being driven by a
specific group in the Russian political spectrum - and
by its American supporters. The leading Russian critics
of Putin's handling of the Beslan crisis are the pro-US
politicians Boris Nemtsov and Vladimir Ryzhkov - men
associated with the extreme neoliberal market reforms
which so devastated the Russian economy under the
west's beloved Boris Yeltsin - and the Carnegie
Endowment's Moscow Center. Funded by its New York head
office, this influential thinktank - which operates in
tandem with the military-political Rand Corporation,
for instance in producing policy papers on Russia's
role in helping the US restructure the "Greater Middle
East" - has been quoted repeatedly in recent days
blaming Putin for the Chechen atrocities. The centre
has also been assiduous over recent months in arguing
against Moscow's claims that there is a link between
the Chechens and al-Qaida.
These people peddle essentially the same line as that
expressed by Chechen leaders themselves, such as Ahmed
Zakaev, the London exile who wrote in these pages
yesterday. Other prominent figures who use the Chechen
rebellion as a stick with which to beat Putin include
Boris Berezovsky, the Russian oligarch who, like
Zakaev, was granted political asylum in this country,
although the Russian authorities want him on numerous
charges. Moscow has often accused Berezovsky of funding
Chechen rebels in the past.
By the same token, the BBC and other media sources are
putting it about that Russian TV played down the Beslan
crisis, while only western channels reported live, the
implication being that Putin's Russia remains a highly
controlled police state. But this view of the Russian
media is precisely the opposite of the impression I
gained while watching both CNN and Russian TV over the
past week: the Russian channels had far better
information and images from Beslan than their western
competitors. This harshness towards Putin is perhaps
explained by the fact that, in the US, the leading
group which pleads the Chechen cause is the American
Committee for Peace in Chechnya (ACPC). The list of the
self-styled "distinguished Americans" who are its
members is a rollcall of the most prominent
neoconservatives who so enthusastically support the
"war on terror".
They include Richard Perle, the notorious Pentagon
adviser; Elliott Abrams of Iran-Contra fame; Kenneth
Adelman, the former US ambassador to the UN who egged
on the invasion of Iraq by predicting it would be "a
cakewalk"; Midge Decter, biographer of Donald Rumsfeld
and a director of the rightwing Heritage Foundation;
Frank Gaffney of the militarist Center for Security
Policy; Bruce Jackson, former US military intelligence
officer and one-time vice-president of Lockheed Martin,
now president of the US Committee on NATO; Michael
Ledeen of the American Enterprise Institute, a former
admirer of Italian fascism and now a leading proponent
of regime change in Iran; and R James Woolsey, the
former CIA director who is one of the leading
cheerleaders behind George Bush's plans to re-model the
Muslim world along pro-US lines.
The ACPC heavily promotes the idea that the Chechen
rebellion shows the undemocratic nature of Putin's
Russia, and cultivates support for the Chechen cause by
emphasizing the seriousness of human rights violations
in the tiny Caucasian republic. It compares the Chechen
crisis to those other fashionable "Muslim" causes,
Bosnia and Kosovo - implying that only international
intervention in the Caucasus can stabilize the
situation there. In August, the ACPC welcomed the award
of political asylum in the US, and a US-government
funded grant, to Ilyas Akhmadov, foreign minister in
the opposition Chechen government, and a man Moscow
describes as a terrorist. Coming from both political
parties, the ACPC members represent the backbone of the
US foreign policy establishment, and their views are
indeed those of the US administration.
Although the White House issued a condemnation of the
Beslan hostage-takers, its official view remains that
the Chechen conflict must be solved politically.
According to ACPC member Charles Fairbanks of Johns
Hopkins University, US pressure will now increase on
Moscow to achieve a political, rather than military,
solution - in other words to negotiate with terrorists,
a policy the US resolutely rejects elsewhere.
Allegations are even being made in Russia that the west
itself is somehow behind the Chechen rebellion, and
that the purpose of such support is to weaken Russia,
and to drive her out of the Caucasus. The fact that the
Chechens are believed to use as a base the Pankisi
gorge in neighboring Georgia - a country which aspires
to join NATO, has an extremely pro-American government,
and where the US already has a significant military
presence - only encourages such speculation. Putin
himself even seemed to lend credence to the idea in his
interview with foreign journalists on Monday.
Proof of any such western involvement would be
difficult to obtain, but is it any wonder Russians are
asking themselves such questions when the same people
in Washington who demand the deployment of overwhelming
military force against the US's so-called terrorist
enemies also insist that Russia capitulate to hers?
----------------------------------------------------
John Laughland is a trustee of the British Helsinki
Human Rights Group www.oscewatch.org
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1299318,00.html
James A. Donald
On 10 Sep 2004 10:05:47 -0400, g...@panix.com (G*rd*n) wrote:
> Before assigning depravity points, one might want to reflect
> that the main difference between ordering the bombing of a
> city (e.g. Belgrade or Baghdad) when it is obvious that many
> noncombatants will be killed, and killing them directly, is
> one of dissimulation.
One is entitled to strike at the enemy wherever he may be. A
little while ago, one of the president's spokesmen said, that
they would strike at the enemy, even though "he hides behind
the skirts of women and the laughter of children". No
dissimulation there. (I do not recall the context, but I
think they were threatening to flatten Fallujah.)
There is a big difference between striking at an enemy who
hides behind the laughter of children, and striking at the
laughter fo children.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
51ZRC+8maPiaVl0eFzNARxKPRCeQAVAMr/OAPtV+
4YOSZQZ0jslM2q50W7bUcwiabKZLVPMYJIFlTJrn2
M J Carley
>There is a big difference between striking at an enemy who hides
>behind the laughter of children, and striking at the laughter fo
>children.
There set out slowly, for a Different World,
At four, on winter mornings, different legs ...
You can't break eggs without making an omelette
--That's what they tell the eggs.
http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/jarrell-bio.html
--
E' la storia di un pasticciere, trotzkista, un pasticciere trotzkista
nell'Italia degli anni '50. E' un film musicale.
No MS attachments: http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
Joseph K.
>shikantaza wrote:
>> Immortalist wrote:
>>
>>> Or do you question the status of the USA as number one in everything
>>> right now?
>>
>>
>> The U.S. is certainly number one in terrorism and murder.
>
>Whatever. Meanwhile true evil is escalating. What happened in Beslan
>goes even beyond what happened on 9/11 - not in scale, but in target.
>Humanity is exploring the lowest depths of depravity.
Come'n. Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Joshua Holmes
: --
: On 10 Sep 2004 10:05:47 -0400, g...@panix.com (G*rd*n) wrote:
:> Before assigning depravity points, one might want to reflect
:> that the main difference between ordering the bombing of a
:> city (e.g. Belgrade or Baghdad) when it is obvious that many
:> noncombatants will be killed, and killing them directly, is
:> one of dissimulation.
:
: One is entitled to strike at the enemy wherever he may be.
I'm not so sure. What happens when the enemy is surrounded with
ten times more innocent? A hundred? A thousand? Does one have the right
to mow down a schoolyard of children to strike at the enemy?
One of the central principles of justice is proportion: the
punishment must fit the crime. While the Fallujah combatants* are
certainly no angels, mowing down their entire city just to get at them is
unjust.
* I don't think there's a neutral term. This is about as close as it
gets.
: There is a big difference between striking at an enemy who
: hides behind the laughter of children, and striking at the
: laughter fo children.
I find it hard to consider living in a city and being a bad guy to
be equivalent to taking a child hostage.
--
Joshua Holmes
jdho...@force.stwing.upenn.edu
Does a man tell you of sacrifice?
Beware, he intends to make you the bull.
Constantinople
"Joseph K." <ni...@none.com> wrote in message
news:uuh3k09fmvtnokstp...@4ax.com...
It's odd what you pick. If I were trying to add context to show that things
have been worse, I would mention the Jewish Holocaust, the very model of
genocide. But anyway I'm only talking about a particular historical
progression. In other places and other times one finds greater evils.
*us*
the western Baghdad city of Fallujah, press reports and medical sources said Thursday,
September 9. Local residents removed bodies from the rubble of a house in the city
demolished in the dead of night by a US missile while people were sleeping, a
correspondent for Agence France-Presse (AFP) on the scene ..."
http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/article.php?id=3170
"...estimates range from 10,000 to 30,000 killed since the United States invaded
in March 2003."
http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=6716
"...Iraqi borders were left unguarded for over six months, during which any terrorist,
gangster, drug dealer and sex trader had no trouble sneaking into the country. And the
Iraqis have been tossed from the frying pan into the fire. Death is closing on them from
every direction. Crime is taking its toll. And as President Bush and his aides continue to
boast of having made the world a safer place, Iraq slides deeper and deeper into
blood-shed and despair."
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/707/re5.htm
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 03:22:12 GMT, "Constantinople" <constan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
><* US *> wrote in message news:8a91k0pr3eneavb7i...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:59:55 GMT, "Constantinople"
>> <constan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>... And there are
>>>terrorists in Iraq...
>>
>> Well, until the Bush mob is forced out, anyway ...
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3631826.stm
>
>Voices from Iraq: Women speak out
>
>Some excerpts, taken from the statements of the 6 Iraqi
>women. Look for who is indicated or implied to be the
>malefactor, and who the benefactor.
From the site you mention:
"We are not free to come and go..."
"I am unable to go anywhere I want..."
"Iraqi women face tough choices in their country following
the US-led invasion and occupation."
Bush had no valid excuse to launch his illegal invasion of Iraq.
He's responsible for the loss of resources, infrastructure, employment,
security, health, and life of those helpless innocent people.
Bush is the world's worst terrorist, and the world knows it, even if you
want to pretend otherwise in your desperation and ignorance.
>... the
>current regime that can be freely criticized and that no
>longer bans certain goods.
You are mistaken: the Bush invasion has caused the
media to be shut down and dissenters have been shot.
The Bush invasion has probably produced a drug trade
that didn't exist to the same extent previously, though.
The terrorists are Bush and his corrupt cronies for what
they are imposing on the Iraqis.
*us*
"Recently, we began to see families who are enduring ill health and hunger..."
"...the kidnapping of children..."
"...The healthcare system is also a cause for concern, because central accountability
systems are absent and because many doctors have either emigrated or have been
assassinated..."
"If this situation continues, my family and I would consider leaving the country."
"...electricity is in short supply and that there is fear because of the security
situation..."
"The negative include the looting of our heritage such Iraq's antiquities, as well as the
lack of security and the chaos that this causes.
Lack of security makes life difficult in Iraq, especially for women."
"One of the scenes in Iraq now that really hurts is seeing some Iraqi children, who have
abandoned going to school, begging or doing menial jobs."
Those are the words of the few, the most privileged, those in the employ of the occupying
forces. Most suffer far worse.
James A. Donald
James A. Donald:
> > One is entitled to strike at the enemy wherever he may be.
Joshua Holmes
> I'm not so sure. What happens when the enemy is surrounded
> with ten times more innocent? A hundred? A thousand?
If one is stopped by a thousand, but not a hundred, then the
enemy will round up a thousand.
The laws of war require one to use the most selective means
available, but one may use whatever means necessary. US
reluctance to inflict civilian casualties in Iraq and in
Yugoslavia, led to more, not fewer, civilian casualties.
> Does one have the right to mow down a schoolyard of children
> to strike at the enemy?
Your pious reasoning leads straight to Beslan.
> One of the central principles of justice is proportion: the
> punishment must fit the crime. While the Fallujah
> combatants* are certainly no angels, mowing down their entire
> city just to get at them is unjust.
The US and Iraqi governments are trying every means short of
flattening the city. The terrorists in Fallujah respond by
engaging in one appalling act after another. In the end, they
have to be stopped, by the least destructive means that
suffice. That least destructive means may well be very
destructive - hence the theory of forward defense - try and
make sure that it is *foreign* civilians that die,
schoolchildren in Fallujah, rather than schoolchildren in
Beslan.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
+IpkfcIJQiLJpLcM9nvzWcCHTKDQpVpMYg/17fy/
4uYnMgLx8aEifwxojyFHFxMAoPpxZ738sQtypwcIt
James A. Donald
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:52:32 -0400, * US * wrote:
> Those are the words of the few, the most privileged, those in
> the employ of the occupying forces. Most suffer far worse.
That was from the BBC - an organization consistently hostile to
the Iraq war. Presumably those voices were representative, and
if there was any selection, it would be to make the war effort
look bad, rather than good.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
lV80fxKGguhvvKjLBfmehTFmKYGQggWiVkH6ldyY
4pNSZCCTtDRh9DVQAUtkxEHtf8yz2TeAvqrM/klYO
Chzwmn
>be a terrorist, but he is in either case a fool, since the US is no more
>stealing Iraq then it stole Japan.
This is a completely naive comment. Iraq will effectively belong to the USA as
all the industries there henceforth will depend on American imports. Iraq will
be utterly reliant on the good will of the US govrnmt and will have to keep
supplied by its industries. Iraq will, efectively belong to the US.
Constantinople
<* US *> wrote in message news:u564k0l9rv1desp6f...@4ax.com...
> "Women and children were among 12 people killed in an overnight fresh US
> missile strike of
> the western Baghdad city of Fallujah, press reports and medical sources
> said Thursday,
> September 9. Local residents removed bodies from the rubble of a house in
> the city
> demolished in the dead of night by a US missile while people were
> sleeping, a
> correspondent for Agence France-Presse (AFP) on the scene ..."
>
> http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/article.php?id=3170
Killed unintentionally, I think. Meanwhile many innocents are killed
intentionally, by the
Middle-Eastern terrorists that your third quote mentions, and by
Middle-Eastern
gangsters mentioned in your third quote, and by other Middle-Easterners
mentioned by
the Iraqi women quoted in the BBC article. Americans hate death, hate
killing, hate
dying. Many Middle-Easterners glory in killing and dying, considering it to
be
all good in the eyes of their God. The most dangerous people in the world
are the
ones who want to die.
Here's an article on the Death Cult that has gripped much of the Middle
East -
gripped some directly, infecting their minds and souls, and gripping the
rest through
intimidation.
:: This cult attaches itself to a political cause but
:: parasitically strangles it. The death cult has strangled
:: the dream of a Palestinian state. The suicide bombers
:: have not brought peace to Palestine; they've brought
:: reprisals. The car bombers are not pushing the U.S. out
:: of Iraq; they're forcing us to stay longer. The death
:: cult is now strangling the Chechen cause, and will bring
:: not independence but blood.
::
:: But that's the idea. Because the death cult is not really
:: about the cause it purports to serve. It's about the
:: sheer pleasure of killing and dying.
::
:: It's about massacring people while in a state of
:: spiritual loftiness. It's about experiencing the total
:: freedom of barbarism - freedom even from human nature,
:: which says, Love children, and Love life. It's about the
:: joy of sadism and suicide.
::
:: We should be used to this pathological mass movement by
:: now. We should be able to talk about such things. Yet
:: when you look at the Western reaction to the Beslan
:: massacres, you see people quick to divert their attention
:: away from the core horror of this act, as if to say: We
:: don't want to stare into this abyss. We don't want to
:: acknowledge those parts of human nature that were on
:: display in Beslan. Something here, if thought about too
:: deeply, undermines the categories we use to live our
:: lives, undermines our faith in the essential goodness of
:: human beings.
> "...estimates range from 10,000 to 30,000 killed since the United States
> invaded
> in March 2003."
>
> http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=6716
That is the total killed intentionally or accidentally by all parties, not
the total murdered
intentionally by Americans. Some Americans did murder some Iraqis (and some
Iraqis
did murder some Americans), but not 10,000.
> "...Iraqi borders were left unguarded for over six months, during which
> any terrorist,
So you do believe in Middle-Eastern terrorists.
> gangster, drug dealer and sex trader had no trouble sneaking into the
> country. And the
> Iraqis have been tossed from the frying pan into the fire. Death is
> closing on them from
> every direction.
And the perpetrators of these murders mentioned here are those sneaking past
the
borders, i.e., not Americans, who do not need to sneak past the borders.
> Crime is taking its toll.
Crime perpetrated by Middle-Easterners.
> And as President Bush and his aides continue to
> boast of having made the world a safer place, Iraq slides deeper and
> deeper into
> blood-shed and despair."
So says the Egyptian press, contradicting the accounts of many Iraqis
speaking for
themselves.
Chzwmn
Bush is as much a terrorist as the butchers of Beslan. The only difference is
that he can terrorise without any threat to his own life. The Beslan terrorists
are the scum of the earth, but what are Bush and Blair?
Chzwmn
>One is entitled to strike at the enemy wherever he may be. A
>little while ago, one of the president's spokesmen said, that
>they would strike at the enemy, even though "he hides behind
>the skirts of women and the laughter of children". No
>dissimulation there. (I do not recall the context, but I
>think they were threatening to flatten Fallujah.)
>
>There is a big difference between striking at an enemy who
>hides behind the laughter of children, and striking at the
>laughter fo children.
>
> --digsig
> James A. Donald
Sorry James but you have just lost the plot. Killing children for one's own
political gain is wrong, wherever they may be. It is easy for Bush and CHeney
to terrorise the world whilst filling their own pockets with dollars as their
own personal safety is not at risk. The butcher of Beslan risked their lives
for what they beleived in. I cannot imagine how a person could kill a child in
cold blood, but how much colder is Bush?
*us*
>That was from the BBC - an organization ...
Your ad hominem fallacy merely shows your incapability to offer discourse.
The fact remains that Iraq is far worse off after Bush's illegal invasion than
it was before it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3631826.stm
"Recently, we began to see families who are enduring ill health and hunger..."
"...the kidnapping of children..."
"...The healthcare system is also a cause for concern, because central accountability
systems are absent and because many doctors have either emigrated or have been
assassinated..."
"If this situation continues, my family and I would consider leaving the country."
"...electricity is in short supply and that there is fear because of the security
situation..."
"The negative include the looting of our heritage such Iraq's antiquities, as well as the
lack of security and the chaos that this causes.
Lack of security makes life difficult in Iraq, especially for women."
"One of the scenes in Iraq now that really hurts is seeing some Iraqi children, who have
abandoned going to school, begging or doing menial jobs."
Those are the words of the few, the most privileged, those in the employ of the occupying
forces. Most suffer far worse.
Remember them, today and every day:
*us*
>... I would mention the Jewish Holocaust, the very model of
>genocide. ...
The Bush family sure made a killing on it.
They'll do that again and again, until they're stopped.
*us*
>Killed unintentionally
Hardly. Bush intends to kill innocents, including children,
as part of his PNAC puppeteers' ghoulish goal of robbery.
"Women and children were among 12 people killed in an overnight fresh US missile strike of
the western Baghdad city of Fallujah, press reports and medical sources said Thursday,
September 9. Local residents removed bodies from the rubble of a house in the city
demolished in the dead of night by a US missile while people were sleeping, a
correspondent for Agence France-Presse (AFP) on the scene ..."
http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/article.php?id=3170
"...estimates range from 10,000 to 30,000 killed since the United States invaded
in March 2003."
http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=6716
"...Iraqi borders were left unguarded for over six months, during which any terrorist,
gangster, drug dealer and sex trader had no trouble sneaking into the country. And the
Iraqis have been tossed from the frying pan into the fire. Death is closing on them from
every direction. Crime is taking its toll. And as President Bush and his aides continue to
boast of having made the world a safer place, Iraq slides deeper and deeper into
blood-shed and despair."
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/707/re5.htm
Remember them, today and every day:
James A. Donald
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:48:51 -0400, * US * wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:40:15 -0700, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>
> >That was from the BBC - an organization ...
>
> Your ad hominem fallacy merely shows your incapability to offer discourse.
>
> The fact remains that Iraq is far worse off after Bush's illegal invasion than
> it was before it.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3631826.stm
The link you cite shows the opposite.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
et/7B80GnOIRmTiBq4w69+0cht+4IO62WkSW82Do
470QR6UnGeH/rWgF1eh5WA5E58rE4u9LFIf1UtwyS
Constantinople
> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:40:15 -0700, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>
> >That was from the BBC - an organization ...
>
> Your ad hominem fallacy merely shows your incapability to offer discourse.
Actually it's not fallacious to consider the source in this instance,
since CNN is conveying news rather than presenting a logical argument.
CNN's credibility as a source of that news is relevant.
In fact as I recall you just previously "committed" the same "fallacy"
when you claimed that the women being quoted are compromised and
suspect as witnesses.
Constantinople
> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:40:15 -0700, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>
> >That was from the BBC - an organization ...
>
> Your ad hominem fallacy merely shows your incapability to offer discourse.
Actually it's not fallacious to consider the source in this instance,
since CNN is conveying news rather than presenting a logical argument.
CNN's credibility as a source of that news is relevant.
In fact as I recall you just previously "committed" the same "fallacy"
when you claimed that the women being quoted are compromised and
suspect as witnesses.
*** sorry, BBC, not CNN ***
G*rd*n
> :> Before assigning depravity points, one might want to reflect
> :> that the main difference between ordering the bombing of a
> :> city (e.g. Belgrade or Baghdad) when it is obvious that many
> :> noncombatants will be killed, and killing them directly, is
> :> one of dissimulation.
James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> : One is entitled to strike at the enemy wherever he may be.
Joshua Holmes <jdho...@force.stwing.upenn.edu>:
> I'm not so sure. What happens when the enemy is surrounded with
> ten times more innocent? A hundred? A thousand? Does one have the right
> to mow down a schoolyard of children to strike at the enemy?
> One of the central principles of justice is proportion: the
> punishment must fit the crime. While the Fallujah combatants* are
> certainly no angels, mowing down their entire city just to get at them is
> unjust.
I am sure the pepetrators of the massacre at Beslan think
that they were hard, but just. I expect we shall see
terrorists who kill and destroy just for the hell of it,
but thus far all the recent ones who have been interviewed
claim the very highest and most idealistic motives -- as
do the State perpetrators of war.
AnimaMinima
> Snipped from Arnold Schwarzenegger's Speech at GOP Convention
Speaking of Arnie, what's he got against girls?
Alex K
>>Snipped from Arnold Schwarzenegger's Speech at GOP Convention
>
>
>
> Speaking of Arnie, what's he got against girls?
I think his beef was with "girlie _men_" not with girls.
Obviously that means he's of the opinion that men and women are
significantly different and that they have different desirable traits --
a very sensible opinion.
Cheers,
Alex
First Last
> [M]en and women are
> significantly different and. . . they have different desirable traits. . . .
The opposite seems true.
--
Alternative computer stuff, rewilding stuff, nihilism, and comedy:
http://home.earthlink.net/~e-group/homepage.html
Alex K
> Alex K wrote:
>
>> [M]en and women are significantly different and. . . they have
>> different desirable traits. . . .
>
> The opposite seems true.
In as much as the differences are measured relative to differences
between humans, the opposite doesn't seem all that true -- although it
could be true that the modern trend is towards a homogenization of the
characteristics of different sexes.
Cheers,
Alex
James A. Donald
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 02:42:56 GMT, "Constantinople"
> the Middle East - gripped some directly, infecting their
> minds and souls, and gripping the rest through intimidation.
>
>
> :: This cult attaches itself to a political cause but
> :: parasitically strangles it. The death cult has
> :: strangled the dream of a Palestinian state. The
> :: suicide bombers have not brought peace to
> :: Palestine; they've brought reprisals. The car
> :: bombers are not pushing the U.S. out of Iraq;
> :: they're forcing us to stay longer. The death cult
> :: is now strangling the Chechen cause, and will
> :: bring not independence but blood.
The purpose of the death cult is not an independent Palestine
or an independent Chechnya, but conversion of the world to
Islam, by making life harsh fo those who war not Muslim, or not
the correct version of Muslim.
In pursuit of this goal it is quite effective. In recent years
many millions of non muslims have fled places with large
numbers of Muslims, almost all of those fleeing being males -
death being a more ominous threat than rape.. Their land,
their sisters, their daughters, have come to be possessed by
Muslims. The net effect of the death cult has been a very
substantial increase in the Muslim religion., and in particular
those branches of the Muslim religion that most vigorously
support murder and terror, particularly Wahabism, which has
grown dramatically, enormously, through the violence that it
promotes.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
bk72SW2BxfEm4eowuOMjDDwCCIN622oPAqXaW9zo
4rgGacog7RT4C26yUJ+YmmD0adLw+v+i1d0bIUTeP
*us*
http://www.iraq.net/displayarticle5319.html
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 13:50:26 -0700, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>The link you cite ...
Read it: those working for the invaders are few, and they don't
experience what the majority experiences, and it's still not good.
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:40:15 -0700, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>That was from the BBC - an organization ...
Your ad hominem fallacy merely shows your incapability to offer discourse.
The fact remains that Iraq is far worse off after Bush's illegal invasion than
it was before it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3631826.stm
"Recently, we began to see families who are enduring ill health and hunger..."
*us*
>Actually it's not fallacious to consider the source ...
Of course it is. If you were properly educated, you'd know that.
""entrenched frustration and anger" at the U.S.-led occupation..."
*us*
>...just previously "committed" the same "fallacy"...
The facts for the privileged few do not represent those for the majority of others.
Logic, were you capable of it, would tell you that.
"Detailed new reports by two independent groups offer a devastating portrait of
the 16-month-old U.S. reconstruction effort in Iraq, blaming ongoing violence there
in large part on misplaced U.S. priorities, bureaucratic bungling and poor planning."
http://www.iraq.net/displayarticle5319.html
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:40:15 -0700, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>That was from the BBC - an organization ...
Your ad hominem fallacy merely shows your incapability to offer discourse.
The fact remains that Iraq is far worse off after Bush's illegal invasion than
*us*
> ... conversion of the world to
>Islam...
My, but you're gullible.
No follower of Islam would force you to convert.
The victims of the Bush regime would like you to quit
attacking, torturing, raping, maiming, and killing them.
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 02:42:56 GMT, "Constantinople" <constan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Killed unintentionally
Hardly. Bush intends to kill innocents, including children,
as part of his PNAC puppeteers' ghoulish goal of robbery.
"Women and children were among 12 people killed in an overnight fresh US missile strike of
the western Baghdad city of Fallujah, press reports and medical sources said Thursday,
September 9. Local residents removed bodies from the rubble of a house in the city
demolished in the dead of night by a US missile while people were sleeping, a
correspondent for Agence France-Presse (AFP) on the scene ..."
http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/article.php?id=3170
"...estimates range from 10,000 to 30,000 killed since the United States invaded
in March 2003."
http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=6716
"...Iraqi borders were left unguarded for over six months, during which any terrorist,
gangster, drug dealer and sex trader had no trouble sneaking into the country. And the
Iraqis have been tossed from the frying pan into the fire. Death is closing on them from
every direction. Crime is taking its toll. And as President Bush and his aides continue to
boast of having made the world a safer place, Iraq slides deeper and deeper into
blood-shed and despair."
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/707/re5.htm
Remember them, today and every day:
G*rd*n
> > Speaking of Arnie, what's he got against girls?
Alex K <alex...@gmail.com>:
> I think his beef was with "girlie _men_" not with girls.
> Obviously that means he's of the opinion that men and women are
> significantly different and that they have different desirable traits --
> a very sensible opinion.
The trope seems analogous to complaining about Whites who
show some non-White characteristics, physically or in such
cultural areas as music, clothing, or personal deportment.
This was more fashionable in the 1950s than it is now, but
the gist is very much the same: the X's are all very well in
their place, but superior beings (that is, het White men)
shouldn't imitate them or even watch too closely, because
that would be letting down the side.
I thought Americans had mostly left this kind of insecurity
behind and the folk in the hinterlands had turned to religious
zealotry in its stead in their quest to avoid thought and
knowledge. It's odd to see an apparently cheerful, successful
performer and businessman like Arnie come out with it at
regular intervals.
Joseph K.
<constan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"Joseph K." <ni...@none.com> wrote in message
>news:uuh3k09fmvtnokstp...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 02:54:02 GMT, Constantinople
>> <constan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>shikantaza wrote:
>>>> Immortalist wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Or do you question the status of the USA as number one in everything
>>>>> right now?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The U.S. is certainly number one in terrorism and murder.
>>>
>>>Whatever. Meanwhile true evil is escalating. What happened in Beslan
>>>goes even beyond what happened on 9/11 - not in scale, but in target.
>>>Humanity is exploring the lowest depths of depravity.
>>
>> Come'n. Remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
>
>It's odd what you pick.
Not that odd. Your comment joined a chorus a similar remarks i have
been bombarded with from the media these days. They all use the -est
suffix, like in lowest depravity, greatest evil, etc. What a short
memory span! The bombing of those two Japanese cities was surely the
greatest act of evil ever, instantly frying thousands of little
children (not to mention their mathers and almost all other living
things) playing in playgrounds and condemning thousands more to a life
with sickness and deformed offsprings. And it was all planned in cold
detail in the comfortable offices of the leaders of the State that
claims to be the greatest pursuer of Good and the greatest enemy of
Evil.
Thus, the Beslan stuff is just business as usual, nothing to be
impressed with, just the usual stuff in the fight of a budding State
against an established one.
>If I were trying to add context to show that things
>have been worse, I would mention the Jewish Holocaust, the very model of
>genocide.
I would give much more depravity points to the bombing of the Japanese
cities, just because it killed so many people so quickly. The
processing of Jewish meat by the Nazis was more like the sum of many
small evils. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that is another story, that was
one hell of a big evil.
> But anyway I'm only talking about a particular historical
>progression. In other places and other times one finds greater evils.
The thing that i don't like is the horrified tone, the manner of
speaking indicating such a great shock. Come'n. It's business as
usual. On the other hand, people like that stuff. It makes great fun.
It makes for interesting hours in front of the TV, and after watching
their TV sets, philosophers can join and put up a shocked expression
in their faces, and talk and find themselves such decent persons,
living in such a wonderful Nation.
Constantinople
> The thing that i don't like is the horrified tone, the manner of
> speaking indicating such a great shock.
Some of us are horrified by the murder of children. We're not all blase
about it like you.
Alex K
> AnimaMinima wrote:
>
>>>Speaking of Arnie, what's he got against girls?
>
>
> Alex K <alex...@gmail.com>:
>
>> I think his beef was with "girlie _men_" not with girls.
>>Obviously that means he's of the opinion that men and women are
>>significantly different and that they have different desirable traits --
>>a very sensible opinion.
>
>
>
> The trope seems analogous to complaining about Whites who
> show some non-White characteristics, physically or in such
> cultural areas as music, clothing, or personal deportment.
>
> This was more fashionable in the 1950s than it is now, but
> the gist is very much the same: the X's are all very well in
> their place, but superior beings (that is, het White men)
> shouldn't imitate them or even watch too closely, because
> that would be letting down the side.
>
I'm sorry but there is no link between racism or racist crimes and
claiming that men and women are different --for instance, they have
different sexual organs. I also have not seen Arnie claiming that the
penis is superior to the vagina in any absolute morally derogatory term.
It would be more like claiming that a man without a penis is not much of
a man.
Your musings above are just bits of self-righteous rants that the
left likes to indulge in -- soon we'll hear about the link between
imperialism and the unfairness of women being assigned to "their place"
in bearing children.
Cheers,
Alex
Chzwmn
The only country in the region which harbours and has supported the
perpertrators of 9/11 is Saudi Arabia. Many of the lawyer of the families and
businesses killed on that day are sueing the Saudi government. They are doing
what the Bush familiy in incapable of doing as they are best friends with Saudi
Arabia and are PERSONALLY paid great sums of money by them.
Is the worls gone fucking mad when we have to rely on shister lawyers for
justice that should be sought by the government????????
James A. Donald
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:45:49 -0400, * US * wrote:
> On 11 Sep 2004 13:54:30 -0700, constan...@yahoo.com (Constantinople) wrote:
>
> >...just previously "committed" the same "fallacy"...
>
> The facts for the privileged few do not represent those for the majority of others.
Most Iraqis cited in the BBC link believe they are better off. You
have no reason to believe those cited in the BBC link represent the
privileged few.
In view of the well known biases of the BBC, if there was any
selection at all it would be in the opposite direction.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
ne0dJV8Pwk8VF/sEZeroUIdg6IMScz7bQqOLbG6z
40cobNjHAIp1vlesMm/W6ohsHCogNIogdqIW4wDbW
Immortalist
"Chzwmn" <chz...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040912133720...@mb-m19.aol.com...
> THe attack on Iraq was indefensible.
> The only country in the region which harbours and has supported the
> perpertrators of 9/11 is Saudi Arabia.
Did USA attack Iraq because of 9/11 or problems with weapons inspectors?
James A. Donald
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:06:52 -0400, * US * wrote:
> No follower of Islam would force you to convert.
True, but many, perhaps most, feel themselves entitled to
murder or rape,( or both in random order without regard to
gender), those who fail to convert, or convert to the incorrect
version of Islam.
As was evident in Muslim coverage of the Beslan incident.
I see a lot of politically correct newspaper stories with
headlines like "Muslim media's criticism of terrorism gives us
hope" - but only *some* of the Muslim media criticise the
terrorists of Beslan. Some do, but an alarmingly large
proportion, perhaps a majority, do not.
--digsig
James A. Donald
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Joseph K.
I'm calling you hypocrites and puppets. It's all a pose, a fabricated
attitude, a result of collectivist manipulation and the desire to
conform.
James A. Donald
Joseph K
> >> The thing that i don't like is the horrified tone, the
> >> manner of speaking indicating such a great shock.
Constantinople
> >Some of us are horrified by the murder of children. We're
> >not all blase about it like you.
Joseph K
> I'm calling you hypocrites and puppets. It's all a pose, a
> fabricated attitude, a result of collectivist manipulation
> and the desire to conform.
You are rationalizing the murder of children. Defending
ourselves against the Japanese was not equivalent to taking
children hostage and murdering them.
--digsig
James A. Donald
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