Is my choice reasonable; for those that know me in this forum....
kevirwin
longevity, whatsoever!!! (translation: almost every night, I hope I
won't wake up - - NOT depression, just realization of the horrors of
old age)
Situation: Seems there's a fair chance I have prostate cancer (i.e.,
the good doctors sticking their fingers up my ass could feel
"something; also my PSA blood test is way high abnormal), but the
doctors aren't saying "yes or no". That was the information I wanted –
yes or no.. They want to do a biopsy for the “final answer”.
I read up on it in the Internet. It is one of the easiest to cure, but
(1) chemotherapy is unpleasant & painful and (2) surgery has the
annoying side affect of incontinence (I told myself a long time ago,
trivial as it may seem, peeing all over myself is not a condition I
will suffer). Option#3 was to do nothing; most older men will die
**with** prostate cancer, not **from** it. The doctors do not feel 60
is old and that if I have it, some positive treatment plan is
preferable. I don’t understand the idea of doing minor surgery to get
a sample, if they might want to cut the whole thing away at some
point.
So question: While my daughters and other family members tell me how
foolish my indifference is, I say it’s my life and my choice – “doing
nothing” is a choice, not suicide; so is that reasonable (given I
don’t want to be here anyway)?????????
I know Mikey would miss his best internet buddy!!!
K e v
turtoni
> Preface: I'm old (60 in August); philosophically, I have no desire for
> longevity, whatsoever!!! (translation: almost every night, I hope I
> won't wake up - - NOT depression, just realization of the horrors of
> old age)
Damn; i thought 60 years old is young. What horrors are you refering too?
Pain?
> Situation: Seems there's a fair chance I have prostate cancer (i.e.,
> the good doctors sticking their fingers up my ass could feel
> "something; also my PSA blood test is way high abnormal), but the
> doctors aren't saying "yes or no". That was the information I wanted –
> yes or no.. They want to do a biopsy for the “final answer”.
Do the biopsy and go from there:
"During a biopsy a urologist obtains tissue samples from the prostate via
the rectum. A biopsy gun inserts and removes special hollow-core needles
(usually three to six on each side of the prostate) in less than a second.
Prostate biopsies are routinely done on an outpatient basis and rarely
require hospitalization. Fifty-five percent of men report discomfort during
prostate biopsy"
kevirwin
they just don't remove the whole prostate to start with....I think if
Immortalist saw my post, I'd have enough information to **do** a
biopsy...
As for old age, subjectivity is a key element in determining the
degree of "horror" an individual may expect. From my perspective:
(1) Recovery from disease or injury is elongated to almost scary
proportions. A sore neck I recently had took 6 full days to heal, when
at age 20, it would have been gone in about a day. (NOTE: That’s why
many old people are cautious, I suspect. We’re not afraid of taking
chances, we’re afraid of getting hurt and all the recovery time
required to heal.)
(2) All the 5 physical senses deteriorate at an alarming rate.
**Nothing** improves (and that includes intangible aspects of your
being, like - reasoning, personal spatial awareness, memory, etc.).
(3) If you believe that death is nothing more than “full anesthesia
that you don’t wake up from”, then the prospect of your ultimate
demise is not that daunting. Existentialistically, you are aware of
your own mortality, and as you age, you can readily see that the loss
of a few years in the “high-age” bracket doesn’t matter,
qualitatively. Plus, you’re going to die anyway and you won’t be aware
of that momentous event after it occurs, “Oh Death, where is thy
sting?”
(4) Pain remains the same (sensitivity-wise), but lasts longer due to
increased healing times. I’m acutely sensitive to physical pain and
will do anything to avoid it (During the Vietnam war, I knew I’d never
surrender, I’d force them to kill me).
None of this has prevented me from enjoying my early retirement; since
I **am** alive, I try to keep myself happy and those family members I
can assist to feel the same way. Even if I’d like to see “The End” to
this story, I’ll keep writing new chapters, as long as it remains more
of a comedy than a drama. “Quality of Life” is of paramount concern to
me; there’s only so much I’ll concede to age and keep playing (i.e. –
blindness is direct cause for “early termination” and while it
probably seems ludicrous or insane to others, urinating on myself
[whether because of prostate surgery or some other heinous aspect of
aging] is equally unacceptable….
This probably seems like some form of depression (which the medical
community keeps trying to treat), but I view it as a realistic
analysis of “aging and the subsequent options”.
Of course, all this – IMHO,
K e v
Robert Cohen
Hamilton Jordan died tonight from it.
Teddy Kennedy has been diagniosed with a malignant brain tumor.
There are many biotech etal companies tediously and expensively
working on cures & treatments, and their owners & stockholders are
trying to get very wealthy of course.
For several years, I took many vitamins & herbs, saw palmetto etal.
And I tried to cut down on eating meat.
Now I only take a multi-vite and drink green tea, which ain't too bad
with lemon juice.
I did also join the C n.g. & occasionally publicly discuss cures.
The group is apparently mostly C victims-survivors.
They discuss conventional and quack approaches, and there is a cool
oncologist who sometimes comments.
When one is in his sixties, one should be interested, since the
percentage of C's victims is clichely claimed to be 1 in 3 (or
whatever).
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.diseases.cancer/topics?hl=en
turtoni
> Well, first - thanks for the info on the biopsy. Now I understand why
> they just don't remove the whole prostate to start with....I think if
> Immortalist saw my post, I'd have enough information to **do** a
> biopsy...
Doing the biopsy shouldn't cause you much discomfort. You could even
consider taking some medication before and after the procedure for any
anticipated pain and or anxiety.
> As for old age, subjectivity is a key element in determining the
> degree of "horror" an individual may expect. From my perspective:
(well written interesting account snipped)
> This probably seems like some form of depression
> (which the medical community keeps trying to treat),
> but I view it as a realistic analysis of “aging and the
> subsequent options”.
> Of course, all this – IMHO,
> K e v
"DEPRESSION IS NOT A NORMAL OR A NECESSARY PART OF AGING. In fact, most
seniors are satisfied with their lives despite the challenges of growing
old."
Some ways to combat and prevent depression include:
Getting out in to the world – Try not to stay cooped up at home all day. Go
to the park, take a trip to the hairdresser, or have lunch with a friend.
Connecting to others – Limit the time you’re alone. If you can’t get out to
socialize, invite loved ones to visit you, or keep in touch over the phone
or email.
Participating in activities you enjoy - Pursue whatever hobbies or pastimes
bring or used to bring you joy.
Volunteering your time – Helping others is one of the best ways to feel
better about yourself and regain perspective.
Taking care of a pet – Get a pet to keep you company.
Learning a new skill – Pick something that you’ve always wanted to learn, or
that sparks your imagination and creativity.
Enjoying jokes and stories – Laughter provides a mood boost, so swap
humorous stories and jokes with your loved ones, watch a comedy, or read a
funny book.
Maintaining a healthy diet – Avoid eating too much sugar and junk food.
Choose healthy foods that provide nourishment and energy, and take a daily
multivitamin.
Exercising - Even if you’re ill, frail, or disabled, there are many safe
exercises you can do to build your strength and boost your mood—even from a
chair or wheelchair."
bigfl...@gmail.com
GDay Kev,
> Well, first - thanks for the info on the biopsy. Now I understand why
> they just don't remove the whole prostate to start with....I think if
> Immortalist saw my post, I'd have enough information to **do** a
> biopsy...
You have given me the first good laugh of the day :-)
Thanks. No tumor on the humor......
>
> As for old age, subjectivity is a key element in determining the
> degree of "horror" an individual may expect. From my perspective:
Expectation is a very creative force.
> (1) Recovery from disease or injury is elongated to almost scary
> proportions. A sore neck I recently had took 6 full days to heal, when
> at age 20, it would have been gone in about a day. (NOTE: That’s why
> many old people are cautious, I suspect. We’re not afraid of taking
> chances, we’re afraid of getting hurt and all the recovery time
> required to heal.)
My expectation has been since my twenties, to keep my muscles and
joints stimulated with hard training without the 'joys' of
unpredictable physical contact. I do it better today, and am enjoying
the situation as it is, more than I have ever done. Consciousness
expansion is the game. I prefer my state to Stephen Hawking,
regardless of the percieved contribution to the culture.
It was gratifying to discover that some of the guys at Harvard have
discovered a link between muscle % and biological age, and muscle % is
a matter of self discipline.
>
> (2) All the 5 physical senses deteriorate at an alarming rate.
> **Nothing** improves (and that includes intangible aspects of your
> being, like - reasoning, personal spatial awareness, memory, etc.).
You are practicing "human anticipating". When I used to, I went to the
extreme and decided to start the mourning process as soon as my
daughters were born, because it was then that I knew I would have to
say goodbye. It is good to go to such extremes in your imagination,
because the lessons can be learned (consciousness expansion) without
the hard evidence.
>
> (3) If you believe that death is nothing more than “full anesthesia
> that you don’t wake up from”, then the prospect of your ultimate
> demise is not that daunting. Existentialistically, you are aware of
> your own mortality, and as you age, you can readily see that the loss
> of a few years in the “high-age” bracket doesn’t matter,
> qualitatively. Plus, you’re going to die anyway and you won’t be aware
> of that momentous event after it occurs, “Oh Death, where is thy
> sting?”
Thats not far from my earlier ramblings 'back then".
Since then I have realized that blissfull being has nothing whatever
to do with space time or matter.
Regardless of ones 'projection' (religious or otherwise), when you are
dead you wont be contemplating what it would be like to not be, so why
reverse that now, given that there IS hard evidence of
the 'Secret' of creative thinking.
>
> (4) Pain remains the same (sensitivity-wise), but lasts longer due to
> increased healing times.
Refer to my last sentence.
> I’m acutely sensitive to physical pain and
> will do anything to avoid it (During the Vietnam war, I knew I’d never
> surrender, I’d force them to kill me).
I am also, which is why I enjoy the 'pain' of danger free
performance.The pain of exhilleration, as opposed to the pain of
injury. The crossover being the injuries are overcome in proportion to
ones 'condition'
Of course, had you have been caught, you may not have been in the
position to force your demise.That was not your experience!!!
Years ago I turned my convertible over at 100 mls per hour, at 3 am in
the middle of nowhere. As it was going over, I became 'unconscious' as
it skidded along the road, through the bush and back onto the road
again, which is when I "came to".
There was no physical injury or impact to cause that lack of
consciousness. The confirmation I got from the experience was
remarkable.I was already confident that we always get the 'practical'
on the growth journey, in proportion to our individual capacity to
learn (This is one reason we cannot impose our experiences onto
another). I thought a good 'out of body' would have done the trick,
but the irony is, if you think you know the answer, you probably dont.
Meaning that current questions are based on current limitations. The
answer is always waiting at the next level of awareness, which is
where the journey ALWAYS takes you.
> None of this has prevented me from enjoying my early retirement; since
> I **am** alive, I try to keep myself happy and those family members I
> can assist to feel the same way.
Just be aware that giving does not neccesarily precipitate
'receiving'. Give anyway. You make room for 'more' :-)
>Even if I’d like to see “The End” to
> this story, I’ll keep writing new chapters, as long as it remains more
> of a comedy than a drama.
I hadnt read this when I referred to humor tumour ....Just love the
synchronicity of life.:-)
> “Quality of Life” is of paramount concern to
> me; there’s only so much I’ll concede to age and keep playing (i.e. –
> blindness is direct cause for “early termination” and while it
> probably seems ludicrous or insane to others, urinating on myself
> [whether because of prostate surgery or some other heinous aspect of
> aging] is equally unacceptable….
Dare I say, if you dont 'piss people off " then there's less
likelyhood of 'pissing yourself off".....
As a small child ,I was conscious of the whole biological process
being abhorrent to me. It took me many years to understand why.
>
> This probably seems like some form of depression (which the medical
> community keeps trying to treat), but I view it as a realistic
> analysis of “aging and the subsequent options”.
I alway laugh when people say "as I am getting older".....depending on
the company (not pissing people off becomes an art;-), I will often
say..."as opposed to ???..
> Of course, all this – IMHO,
Life is ALWAYS greater than the sum of its parts, and from where Im
standing you demonstrate that beautifully.
Cheers....and thanks
BOfL
> K e v
zinnic
> Preface: I'm old (60 in August); philosophically, I have no desire for
> longevity, whatsoever!!! (translation: almost every night, I hope I
> won't wake up - - NOT depression, just realization of the horrors of
> old age)
If you are old then I have been 'enjoying' the "horrors" of old age
for quite some time now. I sure have slowed down since I stopped
playing soccer as a 5O yo cos of hip arthritis. Took up golf, had both
hips replaced at 67 and walk 18 holes without discomfit.
About five weeks ago I dreamt I was playing soccer again. I agilely
evaded several defenders and took an almighty kick at goal. Woke up on
the bed room floor before I could see if I had scored a goal. But what
great, great memories and dreams old age offers. The alternative to
old age is to deny oneself the joyful memories of youthful days.
I am well over the hill and am coasting towards the oblivion you seem
to wish on yourself. If only I could find a brake to slow down the
accelerating pace at which time is passing. When life becomes a burden
to myself and others there are many ways to make a graceful exit!
..> Situation: Seems there's a fair chance I have prostate cancer
(i.e.,
> the good doctors sticking their fingers up my ass could feel
> "something; also my PSA blood test is way high abnormal), but the
> doctors aren't saying "yes or no". That was the information I wanted –
> yes or no.. They want to do a biopsy for the “final answer”.
> I read up on it in the Internet. It is one of the easiest to cure, but
> (1) chemotherapy is unpleasant & painful and (2) surgery has the
> annoying side affect of incontinence (I told myself a long time ago,
> trivial as it may seem, peeing all over myself is not a condition I
> will suffer). Option#3 was to do nothing; most older men will die
> **with** prostate cancer, not **from** it. The doctors do not feel 60
> is old and that if I have it, some positive treatment plan is
> preferable. I don’t understand the idea of doing minor surgery to get
> a sample, if they might want to cut the whole thing away at some
> point.
>
> So question: While my daughters and other family members tell me how
> foolish my indifference is, I say it’s my life and my choice – “doing
> nothing” is a choice, not suicide; so is that reasonable (given I
> don’t want to be here anyway)?????????
> I know Mikey would miss his best internet buddy!!!
>
> K e v
Frankly, I offer my sympathy but not my empathy. I think that you are
being unreasonable.
I remember pissing the bed when I was a child and pissing my pants as
a drunken man-child. It was embarassing but not really worth dying
for! :-)!
Wish the best for you
Zinnic
turtoni
"zinnic"
> I remember pissing the bed when I was a child and pissing my pants as
> a drunken man-child. It was embarassing but not really worth dying
> for! :-)!
> Wish the best for you
pissing yourself in a wetsuit is actually a nice feeling; especially if the
water around you is cold enough to feel like it's punching you in the face
as a wave crashes against your head.
tg
About the thing: I think you need to do some research on treatments;
if I understand correctly, there are better and worse surgeons and you
might get away with fewer side effects. Make sure to get tests and
multiple opinions.
About the psychology and philosophy stuff: It sounds a lot as if you
are afraid of losing control rather than experiencing the pain or
wetness or whatever physical symptom. You hinted at a diagnosis of
depression but how about PTSD? Fear is a worthy thing to fear.
Anyway, Kev, you are a long way from not being in control of your
destiny, so why not keep trying for a while. Getting a smile from your
family must still feel a little good.
-tg
kevirwin
Just wanted to say "thanks" to all, for the inputs...
As a "partial existentialist", my mortality holds no fear, nor does
the potentially imminent nature of the event hold any dread.
A strong survival instinct (at any cost) would logically be an aspect
of life heavily fortified by Nature. And yet suicide exists; I’m not
there, but I understand it…
Hey, where’s Mikey????
Thanks again,
K e v
zinnic
It is my understanding that Mike has his own sorrow in the condition
of his wife. Someone has even taunted him with it!
Z
kevirwin
>
> It is my understanding that Mike has his own sorrow in the condition
> of his wife. Someone has even taunted him with it!
> Z
Thanks Z....
I was afraid it might be something like that...
Mikey & I have had our "go-arounds", and yet I’ve said that I’m more
like him than anyone else in this forum. And even though I
**thought** I had no "verbal boundaries", I found there are lines I
**won’t** cross (that others will) ….I saw enough before to know that
Mikey has a strong affection for his wife.
K e v
zinnic
Re Mike. You have said you are "more like him than anyone else on this
forum"
I missed that. Most intriguing. I have seen you concede that others
may have a legitimate point of view. Would you care to expand?
Mike rejects even those who agree with his fundamental philosophy but
offer a moderate version of his extreme views. He wants no allies
and labels anyone, who disagrees to any degree with his views, as
Kantian, communistic, parasitic, effing assholes.
I hope his obsession with the Libertarian fallacy of the self-
sufficient individual will be modified by his society's caring and
helpful responses to his tragic circumstance.
Zinnic
bigfl...@gmail.com
A good example of the extreme levels of consciousness that exist, even
within a fairly small circle like this one.To most of us, it is
incomprehansible that someone could be so loathsome to act in such a
way.
He has already sufferd major tragedy in his life, and is often why
people 'lash out; at others.
He shows amazing capacity to be receptive occasionally.
He seems to be more like Borg in that way, or should that be
IceBorg :-)
BOfL
kevirwin
>
> - Show quoted text -
okay, I brought it up, so I'll amplify...
Mikey wants to be an individual and the "libertarian agenda" appears
to open that door for him; I do it (i.e pursue individual goals) with
no political affiliation whatsoever. We both strongly support
individual choice in determining our own “pursuit to happiness” (as
hard as that is on this miserable sphere). So you could say we both
want the right to do as we please (I’m going to give you the credit of
understanding that inherent in such a philosophy is the obvious
courtesy to allow others the same right; so please, no ludicrous
rejoinder about, “Well, what if you want to take someone’s property??”
or “What if you want sex with any woman you chose??” so violence
against another sentient being is a “no-no”, it isn’t part of any
coherent individualistic creed, nor would it make sense on a planet
where social interaction is required to survive.
Mikey tends to be a realist and accepts the inputs from his sensory
organs as being reliable enough to make fundamental decisions on the
nature of his physical presence.
I tend to agree, but avoid the Kant-Rand debates like the plague.
Beliefs abound in this forum, but compelling evidence doesn’t. I
believe you’re correct on this, Z -- Mikey wants no allies.
Mikey is anti-social (so am I), unfriendly (so am I), confrontational,
(so am I), reactive (so am I), indifferent (so am I) and arrogant (so
am I). I see some of the same anger in him that I have. Neither of us
are particularly happy in the situation we find ourselves (He drank, I
did drugs [including alcohol]). I believe our personalities are
probably similar, but just manifest themselves differently to other
“interested parties”.
This comparison comes with several (hopefully obvious) major
differences – Such as, Mikey is without empathy to another’s position,
which I have pointed out to him on numerous occasions. The inability
to at least “understand” another’s view cripples him in any debate,
but I could never get through to him on that…..
Anyway, that’s the “off-the-top-of-my-head” answer. It’s also a
“feel” from being in this forum for the past 2 and ½ years….
K e v
zinnic
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
I must have missed all the occasions in which Mike showed "amazing
capacity to be receptive" to anyone. I am "amazed" that he showed that
capacity. A difference in our concepts of what receptivity is may
be relevent. My guess is that we would disagree.
Your suggestion that he is Borg-like is beyond my comprehension, Borg
deliberately writes nonsense. Mike unconsciously writes nonsense,
kevirwin
separated at birth, just above Brian's post???
I must be insecure about the lack of acknowledgement...
K e v
zinnic
Hi Kev, I read your analysis of yourself and Mike. I will respond
when I get back after the Memorial week end.
Z.
zinnic
> On May 22, 9:56 pm, zinnic <zeenr...@gate.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 22, 2:48 pm, kevirwin <kevir...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On May 22, 2:52 pm, zinnic <zeenr...@gate.net> wrote:
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi, Kev I'm baaack from my weekend.
My excuse for not responding earlier was a cop-out. I simply did not
know how to respond. I still don't.
My problem is that I take people at face value. I am uncomfortable
with ascribing motivations to other's actions. For example, I think
that the argument that individuals who enjoy being 'kind' to others
are actually self-serving rather than being truly benevolent is BS.
Kindly is as kindly does, and cruelly is as cruelly does, are
sufficient judgements for me and, in the absence of just cause, I see
no reason to regress into underlying motivations. Turtles, stand
underneath, all the way down!
Like you, I am reluctant to discuss third parties in my posts and so I
will restrict myself to simply disagreeing with your claim of being
a "twin" with Mike. I also had 'go-around' sessions with Mike but my
'feeling' is that he is deliberately obtuse and obscene to disguise
the insecurity of his 'fundamentalist' political and philosophical
belief. He frantically clings to the scriptures of both.
Mike, a Libertarian, derides and insults a man (Kant) who writes
"there can be nothing more dreadful than the actions of a man should
be subjected to the will of another". Go figure!
Anyone who, despite supporting Mike's main thesis, suggests the
slightest difference in view elicits rage and the accusation of
being "a Kantian Communistic C**t". This is Mike's favorite
'philosophical' reponse when he is asked to justify his claims.
But I repeat myself. I just fail to see any 'twinning'.
Long after reaching your age, I watched my only child recover her life
after a marriage break-up, and have had the time to enjoy the growth
of my grand daughter from newborn to a seven year old. I look
forward to seeing her mature into a beautiful lady before I
terminate. Maybe not, but who knows?
I am a old fart but I intend to hang around as long as I want. My
family also want that. I am sure that your family does also, so put up
with the inconveniences of old age, even if only to humor your loved
ones. They need you!.
BTW, you no longer have the option of dying young and beautiful. So
make yourself useful in your old age! :-)!
All the best
Zinnic
kevirwin
quoted)
<quote>
...., so put up with the inconveniences of old age, even if only to
humor your loved ones. They need you!.
Since you took the time to reply, I just wanted to let you know I saw
your response (I believe it's rude not to acknowledge it)..No response
required on your part.
The partially quoted text is **exactly** why I'm still here. They
**really** do need me...
see ya' around the forum (My biopsy isn't until June 26th-- in the
meantime, I'll lie around in the sun and go for skin cancer!!)
K e v
bigfl...@gmail.com
One of my goals is to both confuse and inspire the mortician.
I want him to think "I hope Im in such good shape when Ive snuffed
it".....:-)
Like your idea of the sun tan. The extra radiation may be just what
you need.
Ill guarantee that the academics havnt done a double blind trial with
that possibility :-).
BOfL
kevirwin
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
hey Brian,
I told the doctor I didn't want a local anesthesia for the biopsy. I
want to be totally out; I don’t want to witness any part of it. I hope
he doesn’t think less of me (that actually might not be possible, I
may already be his all-time worst patient).
Knowledge is power, I’ll know on the 26th of June (which,
coincidently, was the day of my aborted suicide in 1996 – gosh, I
never would have known Mikey!!!)
Things are becoming more peculiar, must (might) be a sign of
something. On the bright side, my 16-year-old said when I die, she’d
cremate my body and sprinkle the ashes at one of the pyramids. I like
that…
It's better to burn out, than fade away,
K e v