the ethics of forgiveness
Woody
Sports Illustrated about a heavily Christian rural community in Iowa.
Joe thomas, the high school football coach, was shot to death by Mark
Becker, 24, one of his former players whose life had fallen apart and who
had become addicted to methamphetamines. Becker is now charged with
first-degree murder and there are eyewitnesses.
The next morning the Becker family paid a visit to the Thomas family and
were warmly received, and they all prayed together. Becker's younger brother
is still on the football team and hangs out with the other kids same as
usual.
People get lost in metaphysical questions of God's existence, but there is a
lesson here about the right way to live your everyday life. I can't imagine
any bereaved family in my city having that much generosity of spirit.
Woody
durw...@hushmail.com
Sir Frederick
'Christianity' is actually about a personal pragmatic management
of one's own brain. 'Christ' was a pragmatic neuroscientist.
In addition to your story, consider such as the management of
guilt and other dispositions, offered by church practices,
under the folk talk guise of 'spiritual'.
The BORG
"Woody" <durw...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:oc36m.267337$op1.2...@en-nntp-05.dc1.easynews.com...
because Christians are a very unnatural and false people,
behaving as per written words rather than what comes
genuinely from the heart, self, character and soul of a
person.
Christians have this ulterior motive for their behaviour,
basically they want to go to heaven, so they become these
lying, false, rather unpleasant hypocritical people for this
aim.
If someone does something wrong, like murder, then love and
forgiveness are not good responses. This in effect
"sanctions" the wrong doing and states openly that the crime
may be committed again. Anger and hate are far better and
more genuine and natural reactions, and these "cause" the
wrong doings and sins to CEASE, rather then the love and
forgiveness Christian attitude, which merely sanctions bad
behaviour and often "encourages" more bad behaviour and
murder and sin, and thus in effect they are doing the
wrongdoer harm by this action by not assisting him or her to
understand that what they have done is wrong. Indeed a
large sin in itself.
Some purposely do this kind of thing to Christians in
particular simply because with their unnatural, false, love
and forgiveness - Christians do look so ludicrously funny.
The BORG COLLECTIVE
Robert Cohen
oughta forgive ....
I saw the sickening story on tv within the month or two
Here is the situation as I subjectively perceive, all subject to error
and change of my semi-maladaptive mind
The assumedly "mentally ill" star player muders his influential coach,
authority figure handing-out
reward & punishment
So, the illegal drug seemingly temporarily deadens the jock's
normative conscience & civil rationality
I could not tell from the story if the jock is deemed paychotic,
neurotic, pathological, or
whatever by ideally " forensic skilled shrinks," and when that
diagnosis had been made (before or after murder)
Justice?
Punishment?
Forgiveness?
Well, the entire community has been harmed too, as the coach
apparently managed a crucial river flood defense, a true leader
If the jury declares legal "insanity," then he's John Hinckeleyed &
Arthur Bremered <political assassins>, who've
now been RELEASED, the bastards aren't in prison any more, may a g
damne 'em to hell
"Forgiving murderer?"
Yes, it certainly seems our politically-culturally-prevailing
NORMATIVE reality
Personally, for me, my feeling has to be ... no, especially to our
"indulging society," which seemingly conveniently wraps
it all into a metaphysical or mystical faith-fate, i can't argue
about existence/non-existence of deity substantively anywhere but here
Well, we the ludicrous reactionaries have here in Georgia,
"guilty, but insanity," a catch 22 of catch 22s
The murderer goes to a State hospitalized prison, and then via
miracle becomes an humanitarian Albert Schwitzer acolyte and/or a
genius Birdman of Alcatrz, and so goes back to the courthouse
rehabilitated
He's judged "not now insane," and then may be punished, or perhaps
he's "indulged," depending upon prosecuting & defending lawyers'
skills with the twelve jurors
So a MAGNIFICENT CATCH 22 is inherently built-in here in my State of
Jaw-Ja
No incentive to become "sane," rational, and successfully deal with
demons & angers, et al, but I'm hopefully perceiving mistakenly
What do I really think?
I just told ya, bloodthirsty simpleton-shtunk-butthole-putz
Do I "forgive the murderers?"
NO: Forgive and forget are semingly impossibles for my "regressive"
mind obsession-take on murdering
So, I'll try to avoid jury duty again by telling them I read about it,
or I know
somebody on one side or the other, and it's worked and was true enough
too,
because I luv to read newspapers cover to infinty, and i also think
i sorta knew a petty crime defendant or probably some of his friends/
relatives
Perhaps that trademark Christian concept is "good" stuff for our
civilization, and so I'm
not gonna embarrassingly publicly actively oppose "indulgence," a
purposely very nasty connotation
of what I perceive is a pre-calculated risk for potential murderers,
including pre-calculating of sorts
by drugged methed monsters, because that's what we people do from
infancy, PERHAPS including the so-called
deemed "insane"
Woody
insanity and drug-addiction are excuses for crime.
What I read was about forgiving the murderer's _family_. His parents did
their best to help him. And they aren't being blamed for what he did. In
fact, the community is extending support to them too, because they've lost a
son.
In other ages, and in other places, the parents would have been burned alive
in their own house by a mob. I've read accounts of that happening. The fact
that they could visit the victim's family and all pray together for the dead
man and the young killer whose life is over, is progress.
Woody
durw...@hushmail.com
"Robert Cohen" <robt...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:02483970-5fda-4f40...@j9g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
Robert Cohen
> Forgiving the murderer, I would have trouble with. I've never accepted that
> insanity and drug-addiction are excuses for crime.
>
> What I read was about forgiving the murderer's _family_. His parents did
> their best to help him. And they aren't being blamed for what he did. In
> fact, the community is extending support to them too, because they've lost a
> son.
>
> In other ages, and in other places, the parents would have been burned alive
> in their own house by a mob. I've read accounts of that happening. The fact
> that they could visit the victim's family and all pray together for the dead
> man and the young killer whose life is over, is progress.
>
> Woody
>
> "Robert Cohen" <robtco...@msn.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I of course concur with the justice of not pogroming or burning out
"the Jews" for what that momser-bastard
has perpetrated for two dozen years, or whatever, and so I can easily
concede thattttt point of view
BUT surely somebodies observed a star jock's changed behavior (as at
least chronic meth
junkies apparently can be perceived from their decaying appearances &
personalities)
thus civilized feeling somebodies of the school/town shall (justly or
not) probably
feel some guilt forever for "existentially" not talking
the build-up to the murder was not discussed in what i saw on tv, and
i betcha
at least a trusted friend or two was aware of their apparent psycho-
becoming buddy
talking threateningly and irrationallly about his coach-"boss" bugging
the s out of him
if the drug did it perhaps after one or two bad (contaminated perhaps)
hits, then
i shouldn't be blaming the apparent silence of his friends and his
no doubt horrified parents whom i now more identify with
John Stafford
psychosis.
He misbehaves, harming society.
We look at the gravity of the misbehavior.
He kills, we kill him.
Problem solved.
Woody
"John Stafford" <now...@nowhere.nl> wrote in message
news:uoOdncoAodsBkMTX...@supernews.com...
I was more talking about how his parents have been treated well by the
community and even the victim's family. The parents didn't use meth and
didn't kill anybody. In fact, they did their best to help him. But elsewhere
and elsewhen they would have been punished for what he did, and that would
have been wrong.
Woody
durw...@hushmail.com
Robert Cohen
The convicted murderers in the Atlanta area do NOT generally receive
the death sentence.
Here's a brief assay imho why:
Holdout anti-death penalty jurors apparently are apparently much
responsible
For hundreds of years America's Black people were legalistically
"lynched," generally unfairly & miserably treated, and
therefore the huge reluctance understandibly remains amongst
descendants
Observing the recent outrage of the murdering of Courthouse trial
escapee precipitated
muders of I think five people, an absurdist drama trial costing
millions of dollars mainly
because of shameless publicly-paid defense lawyers (thus eating-up
the parsimonious Republican conjured State budget for defense of
indigents), the establishment did
popularly try maximally to get the murderer duly executed, but one or
two jurors heldout
for life sentence (not death sentence)
If you are worried about being a murder victim, and not having
the convicted murderer punished accordingly, stay away from
the Atlanta area as in my fear
Probably some lost conventions, because of this apparent
reputation as a crime hell is apparently widely rumored
Months ago, a close relative's car was broken-windowed and steering
wheel column trashed costing their insurance company how many
thousands, and Atlanta seems to slough-off such routine
shit, taking NO prints nor investigating an apparently trivial,
common "property crime" of thousands in damages--but priority
triage is their obvious reality & so who can argue that they're
bumbling
idiots, whom are mainly trained to stick people with chickenshite
traffic tickets,
take the routine accident & property crime reports, but a simple crime
investigation
is tv bullshite that dummies like me have believed are duly orderly
reality
Let's face it, we go to Iraq, Afghanistan et al to somehow 'police
em' so to speak, while our cities seem so dangerous,
which is nothing new of course, it's our ugly reality one duly
tries to avoid the seemingly normative petty crime-ridden city
They apparently have more people locked up than ever before, and seem
to spit them out
when they need the space for the newbie captured thugs
The first thing I'll do when I reign as King Cohen I, I would
decriminalize-medicalize recreational drugs
which do seem to be at the heart of crimes shittynesses, as their
illegality is seemingly destroying the polity because of the
damned crimes needed to buy 'em from friendly neighborhood pushers
Of course I'd also stress atabuse (sp?) type antidotes to legally-
morallly counter the worst decriminalized drugs, oh yes i would make
the
stuff legalistically mandatory, and fug the often very COURAGEOUS aclu
who would be bitchin about such practical necessity
The demented person that murdered the five people is of course psycho-
complex, while apparently cocaine figures in the lunacy & absurdity
of his hellishness
.
Giga
"Woody" <durw...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:oc36m.267337$op1.2...@en-nntp-05.dc1.easynews.com...
I wonder if being a small town they had some understanding of the forces
that motivated the killer. All we know hes a drug crazed killer, but they
probably knew him a lot better, as a human being who gradually went down the
wrong path, maybe had some bad luck etc etc. This would make forgiveness
easier, understanding may always lead to forgiveness?
BOfL
This is nothing whatever to do with Christianity, no more than it
would be to do with the fact they may have been a white, yellow or
black community, or from which country.
What it does demonstrate is great understanding. I wonder if they will
try to discover why Mr Becker got involved with drugs to begin with,
or just pray ?
There are many cases where people do so to try and escape dominating
influences, religious dogmatism being one.
BOfL
BOfL
> On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 12:36:37 -0400, "Woody" <durwoo...@hushmail.com> wrote:
> >I'm not Christian, but was particularly struck by a story in last week's
> >Sports Illustrated about a heavily Christian rural community in Iowa.
>
> >Joe thomas, the high school football coach, was shot to death by Mark
> >Becker, 24, one of his former players whose life had fallen apart and who
> >had become addicted to methamphetamines. Becker is now charged with
> >first-degree murder and there are eyewitnesses.
>
> >The next morning the Becker family paid a visit to the Thomas family and
> >were warmly received, and they all prayed together. Becker's younger brother
> >is still on the football team and hangs out with the other kids same as
> >usual.
>
> >People get lost in metaphysical questions of God's existence, but there is a
> >lesson here about the right way to live your everyday life. I can't imagine
> >any bereaved family in my city having that much generosity of spirit.
>
> >Woody
>
> 'Christianity' is actually about a personal pragmatic management
> of one's own brain. 'Christ' was a pragmatic neuroscientist.
> In addition to your story, consider such as the management of
> guilt and other dispositions, offered by church practices,
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Spiritual" is synonimous wth individuality.Christianity and "all"
other group activities cater for people who have yet to discover such
realty. Group therapy by any other description,where they share their
stories, including the 'belief' that 'they' are being spiritual.
BOfL
BOfL
> "Woody" <durwoo...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:oc36m.267337$op1.2...@en-nntp-05.dc1.easynews.com...
>
>
>
> > Woody
> > durwoo...@hushmail.com
>
> It is not really genuine forgiveness, it is hypocrisy
> because Christians are a very unnatural and false people,
> behaving as per written words rather than what comes
> genuinely from the heart, self, character and soul of a
> person.
Another example of a very limited interpretation.
Forgiveness is an invention from "within the group". Mirror images,
with poor understanding of the laws of self responsiblity.
You use the word 'false' and relate that to people. You also show
little understanding of how an individual develops. Illusions have to
be negotiated on the jouney to recognising reality.
You have to ultimately outgrow the collective...
BOfL
BOfL
In some so called 'black ops', a few receptive individuals are chosen
to go through mind altering programmes, allowing them to kill without
question, rather like the victim of a hypnotherapist.
There are two individuals who have confirmed their stories on youtube,
one admitting asasinations. Where does the group see his specific
culpability?
Some have also known to have committed murder while asleep (as in
sleep walking).
If the drug was taken unwillingly, how would that change views here?
There are many shades of grey in such issues.
BOfL
Robert Cohen
through 'n thru
The drug war is counterproductive as was Prohibition as per Milton
Friedman's wisdom that people understand but
simultaneously ignore <cognitive dissonance>
The enormous numbers of crimes generated by drug junkies ain't chopped
liver < But I like chopped liver, especially on onion roll>
The trillions of debt are more troubling to U,S. public confidence
than is being recognized-conceded <the non-sleeper elephant in room a
denying fool belatedly gets>
Would imposed or heavily pushed "austerity" help us or hurt us? <
seemingly BOTH, our ship of state is morte in the wawa, and we need a
push, Marx's 'inevfitable colllapse' prediction being fulfilled? >
Less cars are creating less traffic jamming simply because the approx
10 percent jobless and not now commuting
"My" oil saving concept is fee-motivated car-pooling, but if there
were an elephant in the cars' garage, it'd be sloughed-away, ridiculed
as impractical, unwokable devolution, and embarrassing to this
arrogant super-power
UInemployment ain't retreating, and the stimulus money is in reality
seemingly a deliberately bureaucratic kind of failing, semi bluffing,
airport mickey mousey take off shoes, patting-down the grandmas
J.K.
It seems that, instead of blaming and attacking, they united towards a
greater cause, which was to help prevent such tragedies, and to do so
with rational (as well as sympathetic) understanding.
Since reason and forgiveness are (potential) capacities of every human
mind-- that is, we start with a basis, which we can develop or allow
to recede-- we need not give sole credit to religion. Religion may
advocate doing good things, but it's up to people to bring their
existing potential (such as reason, understanding, sympathy,
sensibility, forgiveness, etc.) into real practice.
A common problem is claiming to hold beliefs/values/morals but not
sincerely practicing them (instead using them for attack/gain/
maneuvering/self-glorifying, hiding behind the appearance of
correctness). Any "true" follower of a religion or discipline will
need to overcome that sort of ungenuineness.
I praise that Iowa community, which ought to be a model for others who
(out of foolish zeal) launch religious attacks, severe tirades, and
so on, while forgetting their better selves.