so
tara
actor, writer/ song writer and singer. A truly good person. But he is
suffering terribly. There are no jokes here, no cajolances to make him
'feel better'.
It is what it is. And it isn't funny.
We need to get him into rehab but it will take a while, couple of weeks it
looks like. Meantime, I have him here.
The suffering is big. We, me and Jess are not suffering but we see his.
And this in itself is a form of suffering.
So...where does Buddhism/zen come into this. How does it help this real life
situation.
thanks,
Tara
Robyn
"tara" <jpine@jetemail{removethis}.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BC7000FB...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
> I have at this moment, a crack addict in my back bedroom. He is a
briliant
> actor, writer/ song writer and singer. A truly good person. But he is
> suffering terribly. There are no jokes here, no cajolances to make him
> 'feel better'.
> It is what it is. And it isn't funny.
>
> We need to get him into rehab but it will take a while, couple of weeks it
> looks like. Meantime, I have him here.
Beware of co-dependency. It can be formed with anyone, no matter what the
relationship, imo.
>
> The suffering is big. We, me and Jess are not suffering but we see his.
> And this in itself is a form of suffering.
>
> So...where does Buddhism/zen come into this. How does it help this real
life
> situation.
>
> thanks,
>
> Tara
>
This probably won't answer your question.
In my humble opinion, I don't think you should worry about what Buddhist
books and the Buddhist people say about this. Only you know the situation.
You can see this person's changes in mood/behavior and your own changes in
response to his. You also can't change this person. Whatever he needs, you
*can't* give it to him. (That's just my opinion.)
You can force change on him, such as putting him in a car and hauling him
off to a clinic, but I wouldn't do that without about three or four people
physically helping you in your presence at that time. And then, wait for
more than a little backlash from him. That doesn't mean he's not a "good
person," just that it's a normal response based on my experiences.
I don't pretend that I have "the answers," just whatever answer pops into
my head at that time, so I'm sorry if this isn't helpful or what you're
looking for.
I do, however, have experience in living with people with addictions, so if
you want to talk about it, you can e-mail me by taking one of the number
ones out of my above "reply" address. :)
Robyn
Mike Biggins
Forget for the moment that he is a brilliant whatever.
See him simply as a human being.
Apply compassion, which it appears you have.
Then consider choice.
This man chose to take Crack.
Therefore he can unchoose to take it.
However the way down the mountain can sometimes more perilous than the way
up. It is easy to slip and fall.
A good guide is needed here.
Remember that on the way up the mountain. (The path leading to his
addiction. He became blinded by the Light). The actual experience of the
drug.
Explain to him that although he believes everything he thinks sees and
experiences. He is actually looking at a movie screen, in his own mind of
what he perceives reality to consist of.
Here, so that I do not lose you, I am thinking of Plato's Cave in the
Republic.
Before the experince of realisation.
Then the path towards it.
Love and Light
Mike.
"tara" <jpine@jetemail{removethis}.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BC7000FB...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
tara
(in message <c2eavn$unq$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>):
> Dear Tara
>
> Forget for the moment that he is a brilliant whatever.
>
> See him simply as a human being.
> Apply compassion, which it appears you have.
>
> Then consider choice.
>
> This man chose to take Crack.
> Therefore he can unchoose to take it.
>
> However the way down the mountain can sometimes more perilous than the way
> up. It is easy to slip and fall.
>
> A good guide is needed here.
>
> Remember that on the way up the mountain. (The path leading to his
> addiction. He became blinded by the Light). The actual experience of the
> drug.
>
> Explain to him that although he believes everything he thinks sees and
> experiences. He is actually looking at a movie screen, in his own mind of
> what he perceives reality to consist of.
>
> Here, so that I do not lose you, I am thinking of Plato's Cave in the
> Republic.
>
> Before the experince of realisation.
>
> Then the path towards it.
>
> Love and Light
> Mike.
I'm gonna let him read this Mike. Thanks so much, my friend.. Your words are
a great help to me.
love,
Tara
Robert Epstein
tara wrote:
you took him in.
that's a start.
and you care about him.
that's something too.
what else is there to do but be present,
and make the situation as possible as you can?
robert
tara
(in message <404ABDFF...@yahoo.com>):
ahh, yes, Robert, this it the answer I needed to hear
love
Tara
>
> robert
>
tara
(in message <w2y2c.75037$PR3.1104896@attbi_s03>):
>
> "tara" <jpine@jetemail{removethis}.net> wrote in message
> news:0001HW.BC7000FB...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
>> I have at this moment, a crack addict in my back bedroom. He is a
> briliant
>> actor, writer/ song writer and singer. A truly good person. But he is
>> suffering terribly. There are no jokes here, no cajolances to make him
>> 'feel better'.
>> It is what it is. And it isn't funny.
>>
>> We need to get him into rehab but it will take a while, couple of weeks it
>> looks like. Meantime, I have him here.
>
> Beware of co-dependency. It can be formed with anyone, no matter what the
> relationship, imo.
>
>>
>> The suffering is big. We, me and Jess are not suffering but we see his.
>> And this in itself is a form of suffering.
>>
>> So...where does Buddhism/zen come into this. How does it help this real
> life
>> situation.
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Tara
>>
>
> This probably won't answer your question.
>
> In my humble opinion, I don't think you should worry about what Buddhist
> books and the Buddhist people say about this
No I'm not really concerned about this.
. Only you know the situation.
> You can see this person's changes in mood/behavior and your own changes in
> response to his. You also can't change this person. Whatever he needs, you
> *can't* give it to him. (That's just my opinion.)
Your opinion is valid and right.
>
> You can force change on him, such as putting him in a car and hauling him
> off to a clinic, but I wouldn't do that without about three or four people
> physically helping you in your presence at that time. And then, wait for
> more than a little backlash from him. That doesn't mean he's not a "good
> person," just that it's a normal response based on my experiences.
yes
>
> I don't pretend that I have "the answers," just whatever answer pops into
> my head at that time, so I'm sorry if this isn't helpful or what you're
> looking for.
No, on the contrary, I appreciate and value what you say, thanks.
>
> I do, however, have experience in living with people with addictions, so if
> you want to talk about it, you can e-mail me by taking one of the number
> ones out of my above "reply" address. :)
:) thanks Robyn.
Tara
>
> Robyn
>
>
MDHJWH
WOAH GIRL! Way before zen gets a look in, important facts need be
conveyed if it's advice in handling this situation you are asking for.
Is he still using?
Can he get his hands on crack in your area?
Is any professional help avialable in your area?
Has he come to you because he thinks you will help him through
withdrawal?
If he is withdrawing are his physical symptoms being managed with the
aid of a tranquilizer?
What are his physical symptoms?
Has he a history other drug use? (Keep him off coffee for now if you
can)
Would he agree to drinking large amounts of water, preferably at least
2 litres a day to speed up detox?
Has this guy any connection with spirtual practices or religion?
I suspect Buddhism has already 'come into this' as you are so aware of
his suffering. You seem to be saying that you regret not being able to
share it.Share it fully & I suspect you wont be able to help him.
Now to the most practical suggestion I can make. If this bod doesn't
have a long history of abusing tranquillizers, try & get him onto 5mg
day of valium. Keep the bottle to yourself & dish em out as needed if
you don't trust him with them.If you know of a good acupuncturist who
understands withdrawal treatment, try & get him to attend at least
twice a week.
I'm lighting a candle butterlfly.
Ayn Marx
daywalker
"tara" <jpine@jetemail{removethis}.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BC7000FB...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1422684.stm
Robyn
"tara" <jpine@jetemail{removethis}.net> wrote in message
If you don't mind my asking, if you're not really concerned about it, then
why did you ask: "So...where does Buddhism/zen come into this. How does it
help this real life situation."
:)
Robyn
tara
(in message <808df0f8.0403...@posting.google.com>):
> tara <jpine@jetemail{removethis}.net> wrote in message
> news:<0001HW.BC7000FB...@news1.on.sympatico.ca>...
>> I have at this moment, a crack addict in my back bedroom. He is a
>> briliant
>> actor, writer/ song writer and singer. A truly good person. But he is
>> suffering terribly. There are no jokes here, no cajolances to make him
>> 'feel better'.
>> It is what it is. And it isn't funny.
>>
>> We need to get him into rehab but it will take a while, couple of weeks it
>> looks like. Meantime, I have him here.
>>
>> The suffering is big. We, me and Jess are not suffering but we see his.
>> And this in itself is a form of suffering.
>>
>> So...where does Buddhism/zen come into this. How does it help this real
>> life
>> situation.
>
> WOAH GIRL! Way before zen gets a look in, important facts need be
> conveyed if it's advice in handling this situation you are asking for.
>
> Is he still using?
Two relapses since Jan 1st. The last one was a week and a half ago.
> Can he get his hands on crack in your area?
yes
> Is any professional help avialable in your area?
It's here, but there is a wait. He is seeing a doctor tomorrow. couple of
weeks ago he tried to check himself into the local psyc hosp. No beds.
Unless he wanted to be stapped down in the hall. He declined.
> Has he come to you because he thinks you will help him through
> withdrawal?
not really. Just a friend.
> If he is withdrawing are his physical symptoms being managed with the
> aid of a tranquilizer?
Yes
> What are his physical symptoms?
Night sweats, hyper, even with tranquilizors, broken sleep. Depressed. He
should be on anti depressants but apparently re-hab won't allow you in if you
are on them. Will have more info tomorrow when he sees a new doctor.
> Has he a history other drug use?
No other
(Keep him off coffee for now if you
> can)
> Would he agree to drinking large amounts of water, preferably at least
> 2 litres a day to speed up detox?
Will try
> Has this guy any connection with spirtual practices or religion?
No.
>
> I suspect Buddhism has already 'come into this' as you are so aware of
> his suffering. You seem to be saying that you regret not being able to
> share it.
No, it just gets me down, the futility and the waste of a life. I just don't
know what to do and I wish I could 'fix' it somehow. But I can't.
Share it fully & I suspect you wont be able to help him.
so true.
>
> Now to the most practical suggestion I can make. If this bod doesn't
> have a long history of abusing tranquillizers, try & get him onto 5mg
> day of valium. Keep the bottle to yourself & dish em out as needed if
> you don't trust him with them.If you know of a good acupuncturist who
> understands withdrawal treatment, try & get him to attend at least
> twice a week.
>
> I'm lighting a candle butterlfly.
Thanks :)
I guess my house is a safe environment for him. He knows that he can't be
here unless he is straight and straight is what and how he wants to be. I've
never had any experience with anyone who does drugs like this. So I'm
learning. . Crack is available out there if he wants it. He has been trying
to stay away from the whole scene. So he has been going back and forth
between his grandfather's house in the country and my house.
thanks for your help and suggestions.
sincerely,
Tara
>
> Ayn Marx
tara
(in message <3YB2c.120$6y1....@news20.bellglobal.com>):
Thanks.
>
>
tara
(in message <p8J2c.78649$ko6.417073@attbi_s02>):
I don't know. Right now I'm not thinking very straight.
tara
>>>> thanks Robyn.
>>
>> Tara
>>>
>>> Robyn
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Robyn
"tara" <jpine@jetemail{removethis}.net> wrote in message
No biggie. :)
Robyn
daywalker
"tara" <jpine@jetemail{removethis}.net> wrote in message
tara
(in message <p8J2c.78649$ko6.417073@attbi_s02>):
Upon reflection.. gaaggghhh. I was not so much concerned, or worried -
more curious, I think. Damn this damnible curiosity of mine. lol But
this newsgroup is, after all... alt.philosophy.zen no? But no, I was
honestly just looking for answers.
Funny how things are serious and at the same time they are not.
I let it all out, my current frustration and concern, in a place where I've
been corresponding with people on apz about zen for a long time...and have
developed friendships and become close to many here. So, why would I not ask
for the opinion of those who actually practice zen in their lives. asking
how I can cope with a zen perspective. What good is zen or Buddhism for
that matter if it is not practical and is relative to daily life.
I can and will probably talk with a psychologist friend of mine about this
current situation I'm trying to understand and cope with. And maybe get
another perspective. But the spiritual one is, I think the most important to
me. The spiritual is ironically and ultimately, the most practical. For
me.
And look what I got here. Look at the answers. Many valuable and truly
helpful responses. Very valuable. All are really. And I am very grateful
for them. Yours included.
We need to reach out. And not be afraid of doing this.
Tara
>>>> thanks Robyn.
>>
>> Tara
>>>
>>> Robyn
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Mike Biggins
"tara" <jpine@jetemail{removethis}.net> wrote in message
Thanks Tara.
Sometimes .... Maybe.
Philosophy
Is the healer.
Love and Light
Mike.
tara
(in message <c2ip2m$tp5$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>):
Philosophy is sometimes the key and often the catalyst for change. But just
as often, a word in a grocery story about the weather or the current news or
anything really will do it. Depends on where we are coming from
maybe...what we are lookig for.or where we want to be.
Tang Huyen
>
> "tara"
> > Lifeform Bri:
> > > "tara"
> > >> tara:
> > >>> Lifeform Bri:
> > >>>> "tara"
> > >>>>> a test maybe but not a contrived one.
> > >>> It wasn't a real test. Only one after the fact.
> > >>> I would never test you. Nor would I say bye bye to you.
> > >> P.S. It was not a test. I couldn't and don't do that.
> > > What do you think about the quotes I've snipped?
> > Maybe everything is a test. A test implies that there are
> > correct and incorrect answers. And even no answer is an
> > answer.
> >
> > If there is evaluation at all, even if there is no conscious
> > testing, then was it a test? If so, who is being tested.
> > The evaluator perhaps.
> >
> > Do we test the water before we jump in. Is this possible. Or
> > do we just jump in and then decide if the water is too cold
> > or too hot. If it is not what we thought it would be, do we
> > blame the water. Or do we look at our expectations and/or
> > perception of what the water 'should' be.
> >
> > The real test if there is one, is our reaction to the
> > temperature or the swiftness of the water.
> >
> > In either case, the tester is the tested.
> >
> > In any case, right now, I'm too tired to think. :) And I
> > wasn't thinking when I said what you quoted. I was simply
> > reacting. I'll look at that.
> I was just noticing the thickness of denial: It wasn't..., I
> would never..., I couln't and don't...
I'd agree with you there. She was throwing cocky challenges (which
is a polite way of putting it) around:
"So much for on line Buddism. ha ha. figures!"
"So...where does Buddhism/zen come into this. How does it help
this real life situation."
In alt.philosophy.zen Robyn asked her a relevant question:
"If you don't mind my asking, if you're not really concerned
about it, then why did you ask: "So...where does Buddhism/zen
come into this. How does it help this real life situation."
Tara to me seems well over her head here. She sounds like dizzy
or drunk or something. And it has been two days.
Tang Huyen
Robert Epstein
Tang Huyen wrote:
well you guys keep on jerking off.
enjoy.
robert
Robert Epstein
> Lifeform Bri wrote:
>>I was just noticing the thickness of denial: It wasn't..., I
>>would never..., I couln't and don't...
And you, Brian, shame on you. Licking Tang's ass like that. I mean,
it's even more unseemly than your usual confessional bullshit.
robert
Fô
wrote:
"Dizzy or drunk sounding" would be appropriate for anyone, I'd reckon,
given the circumstances. I don't think you should judge her 'over her
head'. It's unfair.
It's in exactly such circumstances that we find what we're made of,
rather than this comfy, virtual little b.b.s.
"Mors certa, vita incerta"
Lifeform Bri
"Tang Huyen" <tang_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:404D1EE9...@yahoo.com...
I don't know what's going on with Tara or anybody else for that matter. I
do know she confused me, and for this I thank her for helping me to realize
that I would be better off flying kites rather than trying to get every last
detail accounted for. The details here being the questions: "Is she
serious?", "What magic words do I have that will make her see what she has
to do?", "Am I being tested?"
So maybe I'm over my head too.
Lifeform Bri
"Fô" <1111...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:orgq40hantb1sfnep...@4ax.com...
> It's in exactly such circumstances that we find what we're made of,
> rather than this comfy, virtual little b.b.s.
>
I apply practise to things like not making snide remarks or being calm when
the boss corrects me on my mistakes. I don't take in crack addicts and
think I can "zen" them to recovery.
Lifeform Bri
Raan
Reveal this freedom to him.
Accept his freedom.
--
></>
www.freewebs.com/raan
"tara" <jpine@jetemail{removethis}.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BC7000FB...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
Tang Huyen
> "Fô"
> > It's in exactly such circumstances that we find what
> > we're made of, rather than this comfy, virtual little b.b.s.
> I apply practise to things like not making snide remarks or
> being calm when the boss corrects me on my mistakes. I don't
> take in crack addicts and think I can "zen" them to recovery.
Tara tossed around cocky challenges, which seemed like gentile
versions of calling the Lord in vain. She appeared to me to go
to her limit or beyond -- to tempt fate -- and then to challenge
Buddhism/Zen or on-line Buddhism (us here) to help her with her
real-life situation.
Her mood would be best described as giddy.
She has a good heart, but is it appropriate for a single mother
to take in a crack addict, even if he is a friend? Wouldn't her
child alone be already more than enough of a challenge?
Stretching herself thin between her child and her friend the
crack addict would tax her resources enormously, methinks. Isn't
she swallowing more than she can chew?
But she's an adult responsible for herself. My remarks are only
idle speculation. I admire her good heart and wish her the best.
Tang Huyen
Fô
wrote:
>Lifeform Bri wrote:
>
>> "Fô"
>
>> > It's in exactly such circumstances that we find what
>> > we're made of, rather than this comfy, virtual little b.b.s.
>
>> I apply practise to things like not making snide remarks or
>> being calm when the boss corrects me on my mistakes. I don't
>> take in crack addicts and think I can "zen" them to recovery.
your practice sucks. take that as a correction.
The Boss
>Tara tossed around cocky challenges, which seemed like gentile
>versions of calling the Lord in vain. She appeared to me to go
>to her limit or beyond -- to tempt fate -- and then to challenge
>Buddhism/Zen or on-line Buddhism (us here) to help her with her
>real-life situation.
on a newsgroup? get real. she just wanted someone to visit with, to
talk to at the time.
>Her mood would be best described as giddy.
fine, who cares?
>
>She has a good heart, but is it appropriate for a single mother
>to take in a crack addict, even if he is a friend? Wouldn't her
>child alone be already more than enough of a challenge?
>Stretching herself thin between her child and her friend the
>crack addict would tax her resources enormously, methinks. Isn't
>she swallowing more than she can chew?
that's how we find what we can chew, and what chews us up, isn't it?
Finally someone's actually putting buddhism into practice, rather than
bleating endlessly about what defines it, what it smells
like,blah,endless blah.
What she's doing may be reckless, but she's not seeing him as CRACK
ADDICT like you are- she's seeing a person suffering.
So I say God bless her, may the buddha mind strengthen her, whatever
she needs to see her through.
>But she's an adult responsible for herself. My remarks are only
>idle speculation. I admire her good heart and wish her the best.
>
>Tang Huyen
She knows that. same here.
Pema
> I have at this moment, a crack addict in my back bedroom. He is a briliant
> actor, writer/ song writer and singer. A truly good person. But he is
> suffering terribly. There are no jokes here, no cajolances to make him
> 'feel better'.
> It is what it is. And it isn't funny.
>
> We need to get him into rehab but it will take a while, couple of weeks it
> looks like. Meantime, I have him here.
>
> The suffering is big. We, me and Jess are not suffering but we see his.
> And this in itself is a form of suffering.
>
> So...where does Buddhism/zen come into this. How does it help this real life
> situation.
>
> thanks,
>
> Tara
Dear Tara,
It is deadly serious. I will not say one thing to make you feel
better, or give you some pansy assed advice.
I would call every source and ask what advice the experts vcan give
you to traverse this 2 week time period.
Compassion must be tempered with wisdom or more harm will occur.
Right now, this guy is not a brilliant artist or whatever. (I hear a
slight potential for enabling here.) right now, he is a crack addict,
and you will need to get to that temporary truth with nothing else
attached in order to help him and keep you and jess sane. first, hide
anything of value, setimental or financial, trust is not an option.
Realize he will have to continue illegal drug use while he is in your
home or will have a horrid detox in front of you, either way, hunker
down. make sure he brings NO drugs or druggie friends home. either you
or jess should be home while he is there. This is as much for him as
it is for you, it is harder to accept help from someone you feel you
have harmed, if he steals from you (and the chances are pretty good he
would) he can withdraw from his support system.
That's very buddhist, be practical, call a spade a spade, do what is
going to forward the best outcome for all. I don't think you have any
issues with compassion, but you need to detach from this guy.
above you state:
> I have at this moment, a crack addict in my back bedroom. He is a briliant
> actor, writer/ song writer and singer. A truly good person.
You've said 7 things about the guy, only one was about his crack
addiction. then you say but he is this, and this, and this,.. No, he's
not, he was those things, he's just a crack addict now. Do you see
where i am coming from and where i am going with this? The best way to
help someone in difficulty is to be detached, you don't sound like
your there yet(it's totally understandable) and the potenial for
enabling is high until you can deal with him detached, centered and
clear of mind.
So that's it, get detached and acknowledge the reality of what this
person is right now so you can assist him to the degree you want to.
I am gonna be a bit nervous about this tara until i hear you tell me
he is in and all is well. your compassion is to be comended, it is so
kind of you and jess to really pitch in and help instead of just
flapping your yaps about it.
please let us know how everything goes. I'm getting worried, arg1 i
have to detach too!
bows,
pema
Robyn
"tara" <jpine@jetemail{removethis}.net> wrote in message
Exactly. Life is totally absurd and I love it that way.
> I let it all out, my current frustration and concern, in a place where
I've
> been corresponding with people on apz about zen for a long time...and have
> developed friendships and become close to many here. So, why would I not
ask
> for the opinion of those who actually practice zen in their lives. asking
> how I can cope with a zen perspective. What good is zen or Buddhism for
> that matter if it is not practical and is relative to daily life.
IMO, zen is everyday life. There is no book about what zen is, although
people keep trying to write it. I don't think there should be any set rules
to what zen is, although people keep trying to create them. And people can
philosophize about it in a philosophy forum, but we'll do nothing more than
talk about ideas, theories or concepts. That's not actually living in a real
life situation.
My point was, don't expect to get anything other than people's idle chat
here. I still think that only *you* know the situation you're in, and while
we can dole out advice, our advice won't mean anything. You control what you
think and do and so does your friend who's battling addiction. We can't make
anyone think or do anything they don't want to. There is no zen rule book on
how to handle friends addicted to illegal drugs, so, imo, "zen" has nothing
to say about it.
> I can and will probably talk with a psychologist friend of mine about
this
> current situation I'm trying to understand and cope with.
I think that's a good idea. Perhaps you can find someone who specializes in
addiction?
And maybe get
> another perspective. But the spiritual one is, I think the most important
to
> me. The spiritual is ironically and ultimately, the most practical. For
> me.
Do you distinguish between "spiritual" and just living your life? Is there a
time when you're not being spiritual? I bet there isn't.... :)
Robyn
tara
(in message <rPb3c.3237$Up2.1679@pd7tw1no>):
ha ha, looks like I'm doing the former and it's a first for me. But I'm
definitely not trying to or think I can do the later.
But I think this is as much about real life as is remaining calm when your
boss disses ya
There is not much I can do other than provide a place for him to be until he
gets into rehab. (see Robert's reply to me). There doesn't seem to be
anywhere else he can go where it is safe and the temptation to relapse isn't
there other than to his grandfather's house where things are not very calm.
His grandfather is just starting chemo for in-operable cancer and his mother
is there and is going kind of crazy.
Believe me, this is not my lifestyle and I've never experienced anything like
this before, not in a personal way. But the situation is there and is in
front of me. I can't turn him away. We do what we can, when we can with
what we have. And if we can't, we can't. It's not about virtue and it's not
about failure it's about what is. Is that not practical zen in a way. My
daughter comes first of course, always...(Tang, ;) If I find that it's too
much, having him here, I will have to ask him to go. But he is the kind of
person that if he sees this happening, he will leave of his own accord.
If I wasn't 'calm' and kind of lost it here, well, I guess I fell down but
that's ok, I forgive myself. We are all vulnerable and you can't predict
what life situation will present itself nor can you predict how you will
respond. And I don't think we should worry about how we respond. Do unto
others as you would have them do unto you seems to take care of a lot of it.
I'm sounding like a moralistic idiot here so enough already. Time to carry
some water and chop some wood.
Thanks to everyone.
love,
Tara
>
>
tara
(in message <q8ir4093c555t9uu0...@4ax.com>):
>> Tara tossed around cocky challenges, which seemed like gentile
>> versions of calling the Lord in vain. She appeared to me to go
>> to her limit or beyond -- to tempt fate -- and then to challenge
>> Buddhism/Zen or on-line Buddhism (us here) to help her with her
>> real-life situation.
>
> on a newsgroup? get real. she just wanted someone to visit with, to
> talk to at the time.
this is true. this is what I wanted.
>> Her mood would be best described as giddy.
>
> fine, who cares?
ha ha, :)
>>
>> She has a good heart, but is it appropriate for a single mother
>> to take in a crack addict, even if he is a friend? Wouldn't her
>> child alone be already more than enough of a challenge?
>> Stretching herself thin between her child and her friend the
>> crack addict would tax her resources enormously, methinks. Isn't
>> she swallowing more than she can chew?
>
> that's how we find what we can chew, and what chews us up, isn't it?
>
> Finally someone's actually putting buddhism into practice, rather than
> bleating endlessly about what defines it, what it smells
> like,blah,endless blah.
> What she's doing may be reckless, but she's not seeing him as CRACK
> ADDICT like you are- she's seeing a person suffering.
Yes, who cares why or how, suffering is suffering.
> So I say God bless her, may the buddha mind strengthen her, whatever
> she needs to see her through.
>
>> But she's an adult responsible for herself. My remarks are only
>> idle speculation. I admire her good heart and wish her the best.
>>
>> Tang Huyen
>
> She knows that. same here.
thanks,
sincerely,
Tara
Tang Huyen
Robyn wrote:
> We can't make anyone think or do anything
> they don't want to.
Right. This is especially true with people who
systematically resist advice, even well-meaning
advice.
> There is no zen rule book on how to handle
> friends addicted to illegal drugs, so, imo, "zen"
> has nothing to say about it.
Buddhism and Chan are about freedom, so
what rules have they? And the best they do is
to remain silent, so what have they to say,
regardless of the specific issue?
Tang Huyen
tara
(in message <ntk3c.89194$ko6.539011@attbi_s02>):
>>>
>>> If you don't mind my asking, if you're not really concerned about it,
> then
>>> why did you ask: "So...where does Buddhism/zen come into this. How does
> it
>>> help this real life situation."
>>
>> Upon reflection.. gaaggghhh. I was not so much concerned, or worried -
>> more curious, I think. Damn this damnible curiosity of mine. lol
> But
>> this newsgroup is, after all... alt.philosophy.zen no? But no, I was
>> honestly just looking for answers.
>> Funny how things are serious and at the same time they are not.
>
> Exactly. Life is totally absurd and I love it that way.
LOL pretty boring if it wasn't eh
>
>> I let it all out, my current frustration and concern, in a place where
> I've
>> been corresponding with people on apz about zen for a long time...and have
>> developed friendships and become close to many here. So, why would I not
> ask
>> for the opinion of those who actually practice zen in their lives. asking
>> how I can cope with a zen perspective. What good is zen or Buddhism for
>> that matter if it is not practical and is relative to daily life.
>
> IMO, zen is everyday life. There is no book about what zen is, although
> people keep trying to write it. I don't think there should be any set rules
> to what zen is, although people keep trying to create them. And people can
> philosophize about it in a philosophy forum, but we'll do nothing more than
> talk about ideas, theories or concepts. That's not actually living in a real
> life situation.
Well, it's all real life, even here. but yes I know what you mean
>
> My point was, don't expect to get anything other than people's idle chat
> here.
there are pearls everywhere. Even the sand where the pearls are found is
valuable maybe even more so.
I still think that only *you* know the situation you're in, and while
> we can dole out advice, our advice won't mean anything. You control what you
> think and do and so does your friend who's battling addiction. We can't make
> anyone think or do anything they don't want to. There is no zen rule book on
> how to handle friends addicted to illegal drugs, so, imo, "zen" has nothing
> to say about it.
well, all the responses I've been given are helpful. This is the way I see
them. But ultimately, of course, and always, I am the one who makes the
decisions for me. Because I know this, I can ask for advice and appreciate
it.
>
>> I can and will probably talk with a psychologist friend of mine about
> this
>> current situation I'm trying to understand and cope with.
>
> I think that's a good idea. Perhaps you can find someone who specializes in
> addiction?
>
> And maybe get
>> another perspective. But the spiritual one is, I think the most important
> to
>> me. The spiritual is ironically and ultimately, the most practical. For
>> me.
>
> Do you distinguish between "spiritual" and just living your life? Is there a
> time when you're not being spiritual? I bet there isn't.... :)
You win the bet. :) But there never was one, was there.
bows,
Tara
tara
(in message <7cc3084b.04030...@posting.google.com>):
wow! good practical stuff Pema and I'm taking it to heart. All of it.
>above you state:
>> I have at this moment, a crack addict in my back bedroom. He is a
>> briliant
>> actor, writer/ song writer and singer. A truly good person.
>
> You've said 7 things about the guy, only one was about his crack
> addiction.
But he is all of these things.
then you say but he is this, and this, and this,.. No, he's
> not, he was those things, he's just a crack addict now. Do you see
> where i am coming from and where i am going with this?
yes I do.
The best way to
> help someone in difficulty is to be detached, you don't sound like
> your there yet(it's totally understandable) and the potenial for
> enabling is high until you can deal with him detached, centered and
> clear of mind.
Such a very difficult thing to do, for me. One of the reasons I chose not to
go into counselling was because of that very thing. I was unable to distance
myself. Do just fine with animals though. :)
And the irony is, in that business, you can't really help someone unless you
can remain detached. Am learning this. Even so, it is a struggle for even
the best psychologists to do this. When they can't, they usually send the
client to another shrink. This 'attachment' can be an aversion as well.
> So that's it, get detached and acknowledge the reality of what this
> person is right now so you can assist him to the degree you want to.
> I am gonna be a bit nervous about this tara until i hear you tell me
> he is in and all is well. your compassion is to be comended, it is so
> kind of you and jess to really pitch in and help instead of just
> flapping your yaps about it.
> please let us know how everything goes. I'm getting worried, arg1 i
> have to detach too!
don't worry, it will be ok. hugs. :)
bows to you.
tara
> bows,
> pema
tara
(in message <cRe3c.13431$6y1.6...@news20.bellglobal.com>):
> Without attachment
> Reveal this freedom to him.
> Accept his freedom.
I agree. Right on. Thanks
Tara
tara
(in message <404DF396...@yahoo.com>):
When we are free we can choose to be silent or to speak. Some times there
are things to say, sometimes not. What is this "best" thing. Is "the best
they do is to remain silent" a rule.
tara
>
> Tang Huyen
>
small tortoiseshell
hey tara ...
not much to say really. had a girlfriend once that got hooked on
heroin after we split up. together with a friend, that later became
her boyfriend, and father of her child, we were sitting on her moore
or less 24 hours for a week before she got into a detox program. Shes
clean now. Another friend died a couple of years ago from a coctail of
whisky and heroin, choking on his own puke. gone. 34 years old. i was
on my way to the mountains and dropped by a cafe to say hello to
friends, and was so happy to see him. had been abroad for a year. he
gave me a big bearhug, and asked if i would join the party for a beer
or two. couldnt a said, am on my way to the mountains. when i came
down after 10 days, he was dead, and funeral over. he died the very
night we saw eachother. dont do this alone.
a candle for you and your friend tomorrow ...
tara
(in message <8aae3013.04030...@posting.google.com>):
so good to hear.
Another friend died a couple of years ago from a coctail of
> whisky and heroin, choking on his own puke. gone. 34 years old. i was
> on my way to the mountains and dropped by a cafe to say hello to
> friends, and was so happy to see him. had been abroad for a year. he
> gave me a big bearhug, and asked if i would join the party for a beer
> or two. couldnt a said, am on my way to the mountains. when i came
> down after 10 days, he was dead, and funeral over. he died the very
> night we saw eachother. dont do this alone.
I hear you
>
> a candle for you and your friend tomorrow ...
thanks for sharing this.
and again :) for the candle.
Ayn lit one too.
so many candles burning...so nice to know..
people are so good
bless you small tortoiseshell. I'm overwhelmed by all of the kindness here.
Silent or not, doesn't matter, I can feel it.
tara
Awaken21
> I have at this moment, a crack addict in my back bedroom. He is a briliant
> actor, writer/ song writer and singer. A truly good person. But he is
> suffering terribly. There are no jokes here, no cajolances to make him
> 'feel better'.
> It is what it is. And it isn't funny.
>
> We need to get him into rehab but it will take a while, couple of weeks it
> looks like. Meantime, I have him here.
>
> The suffering is big. We, me and Jess are not suffering but we see his.
> And this in itself is a form of suffering.
>
> So...where does Buddhism/zen come into this. How does it help this real life
> situation.
>
> thanks,
>
> Tara
Hi Tara, I'm not sure if you're interested or already know, but
support groups for families of people who suffer from serious
addictions can be a huge rescource, particularly to someone like
yourself who is living with the person. Not just in emotional ways but
also in information and experiences.
Also if you have some kind of a regular spiritual practice, like
meditation, now is probably not a great time to give it up. :-)
I will be defering merit in your direction, stay safe.
Lifeform Bri
>
> your practice sucks. take that as a correction.
>
That's not a correction. That's your youth talking.
Parking lot. After school.
Lifeform Bri
"Lifeform Bri" <life...@thisplanet.here> wrote in message
news:vvv3c.758098$ts4.702704@pd7tw3no...
>
> "Fô" <1111...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:q8ir4093c555t9uu0...@4ax.com...
>
> >
> > your practice sucks. take that as a correction.
> >
>
> That's not a correction. That's your youth talking.
>
Correction:
That's not a correction; that's your youth talking.
> Parking lot. After school.
>
>
Raan
"tara" <jpine@jetemail{removethis}.net> wrote in message
We are all crack addicts.
Only the crack is the rift
Between us, and them and that.
--
></>
www.freewebs.com/raan
tara
(in message <29c89f8.04030...@posting.google.com>):
> tara <jpine@jetemail{removethis}.net> wrote in message
> news:<0001HW.BC7000FB...@news1.on.sympatico.ca>...
>> I have at this moment, a crack addict in my back bedroom. He is a
>> briliant
>> actor, writer/ song writer and singer. A truly good person. But he is
>> suffering terribly. There are no jokes here, no cajolances to make him
>> 'feel better'.
>> It is what it is. And it isn't funny.
>>
>> We need to get him into rehab but it will take a while, couple of weeks it
>> looks like. Meantime, I have him here.
>>
>> The suffering is big. We, me and Jess are not suffering but we see his.
>> And this in itself is a form of suffering.
>>
>> So...where does Buddhism/zen come into this. How does it help this real
>> life
>> situation.
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Tara
>
> Hi Tara, I'm not sure if you're interested or already know, but
> support groups for families of people who suffer from serious
> addictions can be a huge rescource, particularly to someone like
> yourself who is living with the person. Not just in emotional ways but
> also in information and experiences.
True, and I am going to get all the help I can.
>
> Also if you have some kind of a regular spiritual practice, like
> meditation, now is probably not a great time to give it up. :-)
:)
>
> I will be defering merit in your direction, stay safe.
:))) will do.
Tara
tara
(in message <Sdw3c.15709$6y1.9...@news20.bellglobal.com>):
another little gem. thanks again
>
Robert Epstein
Fô wrote:
Yup, Tang turns out to be the pernicious bitch we've sometimes suspected
him of being. You're a cold little fucker at times, Tang.
Since you seem to be totally lacking in compassion, your philosophical
knowledge counts for shit.
Oh, and this does not count as me losing my cool, dear friend. It is
just a clear-eyed assessment of what you really are.
Robert
Robert Epstein
Lifeform Bri wrote:
Maybe so. Adopting Tang's phraseology and trying to get in his good
graces will get you just where Tara being friendly to Tang got her. He
will turn on you when he feels like it with all the deliberation of a
lizard.
Robert
Robert Epstein
Lifeform Bri wrote:
My understanding is that this is a friend of Tara's. I suppose you'd
leave your friend out on the street in these circumstances? At some
point that might be appropriate, but Tara never said that she was trying
to "zen him into recovery" or taking the role of his practitioner. She
was trying to give him a benign situation to stay in until he could be
taken into rehab. Why you would want to distort Tara's intentions and
make her look bad when she is in a difficult circumstance is beyond me.
Is there something wrong with you that we don't already know about, I
mean in terms of your humanity and your ability to stay true to your own
basic human values?
Robert
Robert Epstein
Lifeform Bri wrote:
ah! a shit-eating grin; how appropriate!
robert
Robert Epstein
Tang Huyen wrote:
well that's a little better.
robert
Robert Epstein
Lifeform Bri wrote:
Brian, you know damn well you never show up for these bouts.
Poor Fo will have to punch himself in order to have a fight.
robert
tara
(in message <404FF3B...@yahoo.com>):
Not about any of this Robert. But, having a 'big brother' is the most
important thing that has ever happened to me here. And it feels as real as
it would if it was a fact in 'real life' . Makes me feel so secure and
protected in a way. god it feels good
I am so lucky to have you. And you can beat me up all you want. Well.... I
will punch you back. But. ohhh so thanks for being you..
love, love, so much,
Tara
>
> robert
>
Lifeform Bri
I was smiling at the truth. Would you rather I cower, Mistress?
Lifeform Bri
>
>
> Lifeform Bri wrote:
>
> > "Fô" <1111...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:q8ir4093c555t9uu0...@4ax.com...
> >
> >
> >>your practice sucks. take that as a correction.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > That's not a correction. That's your youth talking.
> >
> > Parking lot. After school.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Brian, you know damn well you never show up for these bouts.
How could I?
> Poor Fo will have to punch himself in order to have a fight.
>
Ain't that always the way.
Lifeform Bri
Robert, you're talking to the mirror again. I'm over here.
tara
(in message <0001HW.BC7561D5...@news1.on.sympatico.ca>):
And I don't need or want a response, ok. no mushy mushies. I mean that.
a hug would be very cool.
but..a good bat to the head will do just fine. Nothing at all is ok too.
tara
deadman1952
<epsteinr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"We've...?" So who the hell is this "we've," Robert? You and Ron?
> Since you seem to be totally lacking in compassion, your philosophical
> knowledge counts for shit.
>
> Oh, and this does not count as me losing my cool, dear friend. It is
> just a clear-eyed assessment of what you really are.
>
> Robert
Herein, Robert displays his mastery of words--and his "compassion" for
Tang.
Robert also proves that he is a hot big celibate at times (and spaces)
when it comes to this newsgroup.
Joey
P.S. By The Way, "Can you dig it? I knew that you could."
deadman1952
<life...@thisplanet.here> wrote:
> "Robert Epstein" <epsteinr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:404FF3B...@yahoo.com...
> >
> >
> > Lifeform Bri wrote:
> >
> > > "Robert Epstein" <epsteinr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:404D4337...@yahoo.com...
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Lifeform Bri wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>I was just noticing the thickness of denial: It wasn't..., I
> > >>>>would never..., I couln't and don't...
> > >>>>
> > >>
> > >>And you, Brian, shame on you. Licking Tang's ass like that. I mean,
> > >>it's even more unseemly than your usual confessional bullshit.
> > >>
> > >>robert
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > <smiling>
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ah! a shit-eating grin; how appropriate!
> >
> > robert
> >
>
> I was smiling at the truth. Would you rather I cower, Mistress?
Yes--just as Robert cowers in Tara's virtual presence.
Joey
P.S. By The Way, how come the only couple that posts here is Mike and
Chantal?
deadman1952
<life...@thisplanet.here> wrote:
Taking the words out of my mouth again, eh?
Joey
P.S. By The Way, taking sides around here now seems to consist of those
who crosspost to alt.zen versus those who don't crosspost to alt.zen.
Is it any wonder that I'm so confused? "I'm just sitting on a fence.
People say I got no sense."
Raan
"deadman1952" <deadm...@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:110320040027349398%deadm...@earthling.net...
Yes. I like how you said that.
My somewhat simple and graphically sickening argument against glib
rationalizations for abortion which are generally espoused by politically
correct postmodernists, met with Robert's accusation that I lacked
compassion for the plight of the individual female contemplating having an
abortion and the anguish of her decision. The very fact of this anguish
itself shows there is no glib rationalization possible and only leaves
compassion as the means to approach the subject. But any way, Robert is
passionate about such issues as part of his nature (and career choice), so
it is to be expected. Hasn't he accused you of some such similar cold
heartedness in the past? Weren't you being just a little bit cold hearted
in the above post anyway??
"Deadman is a person in your neighborhood."
--
></>
www.freewebs.com/raan
Raan
When my 'woman' (I am her 'man') tried posting here she was attacked from
all sides until she stopped posting. That's how come we as a couple do not
post here. Do you remember?
--
></>
www.freewebs.com/raan
Fô
not necessary, robert. just reading any of your posts is like a punch
to the head.
small tortoiseshell
ha! its so simple really. other IS self. the kindness you 'feel', as i
see it, is your 'greater' self aligning with your 'lesser' self, and
at some point, perhaps they merge, . if one cannot face other, how the
heck can one face One-Self ? i go on my nose all the time, running
into challenges far beyond my capacity, .but just right now these
days, i-m flowing the flow and mother universe is showering me with
blessings, so
happy growings Tara :)
Tang Huyen
Robert Epstein wrote:
> Yup, Tang turns out to be the pernicious
> bitch we've sometimes suspected him of
> being. You're a cold little fucker at times,
> Tang.
>
> Since you seem to be totally lacking in
> compassion, your philosophical knowledge
> counts for shit.
>
> Oh, and this does not count as me losing
> my cool, dear friend. It is just a clear-eyed
> assessment of what you really are.
>
> Robert
All accepted, with thanks.
However, just to be fair, if you claim of
yourself: "It is just a clear-eyed assessment
of what you really are", may the same not
be claimed for the replies to Tara from
Lifeform Bri and me, in right, even if not
in fact?
If you claim to know my mind better than
I do, I'll readily grant that to you. No
contest.
Tang Huyen
Takuji seiji
<jpine@jetemail{removethis}.net> writes:
>So...where does Buddhism/zen come into this. How does it help this real life
>
>situation.
>
>thanks,
>
>Tara
>
for it is far wiser to bury one's treasure
where it cannot be found
even so to own the land therein it lies
than to show it off in public
wherein the common thief takes it
as its own
tara
(in message <8aae3013.04031...@posting.google.com>):
>>
>> bless you small tortoiseshell. I'm overwhelmed by all of the kindness
>> here.
>> Silent or not, doesn't matter, I can feel it.
>>
>> tara
>
> ha! its so simple really. other IS self. the kindness you 'feel', as i
> see it, is your 'greater' self aligning with your 'lesser' self, and
> at some point, perhaps they merge, . if one cannot face other, how the
> heck can one face One-Self ? i go on my nose all the time, running
> into challenges far beyond my capacity, .but just right now these
> days, i-m flowing the flow and mother universe is showering me with
> blessings, so
>
> happy growings Tara :)
:)
even growing sideways, is still a growing. We all eventually find the sun.
tara
tara
(in message <404FF396...@yahoo.com>):
>
>
> Lifeform Bri wrote:
>
>> "Fô" <1111...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:orgq40hantb1sfnep...@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>>> It's in exactly such circumstances that we find what we're made of,
>>> rather than this comfy, virtual little b.b.s.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I apply practise to things like not making snide remarks or being calm when
>> the boss corrects me on my mistakes. I don't take in crack addicts and
>> think I can "zen" them to recovery.
>
>
> My understanding is that this is a friend of Tara's. I suppose you'd
> leave your friend out on the street in these circumstances? At some
> point that might be appropriate,
but Tara never said that she was trying
> to "zen him into recovery" or taking the role of his practitioner. She
> was trying to give him a benign situation to stay in until he could be
> taken into rehab.
This is exactly what I'm doing and the most that I can do.
Tara
tara
(in message <110320040033391298%deadm...@earthling.net>):
No--not so. I've never seen Robert cower..to anyone.
tara
(in message <20040311141352...@mb-m28.aol.com>):
hmmm. I need a while to reflect on this one. :)
Tara
>
>
>
>
Noah Sombrero
>for it is far wiser to bury one's treasure
> where it cannot be found
>even so to own the land therein it lies
>
> than to show it off in public
> wherein the common thief takes it
> as its own
A box of gold in the ground is of no use to anybody.
There is no wisdom in having treasure.
Also no wisdom in thwarting the common thief.
But patch the roof
And provide food
And ask for help
when you need it.
Noah Sombrero
Takuji seiji
<somb...@mm.st> writes:
>Subject: Re: Re: so
>From: Noah Sombrero <somb...@mm.st>
>Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:27:20 -0800
"Don't transfer the cow's load to the bull"
-- Atisha
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field;
the which when a man has found, he hides, and for joy thereof
goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field."
---Matthew 13:44
the wise recognize the suffering they see in others
as a treasure hid within themselves
moreover they hide it within themselves
even so for the joy thereof
do the wise sell all that they have
to keep it for themselves --as their own
how much more do the foolish appear
who make a public spectacle of such matters be
placing their friends upon judgments seat
Lifeform Bri
"Noah Sombrero" <somb...@mm.st> wrote in message
news:i1m150dl0h3f10kr9...@4ax.com...
I'm really confused. I don't even know if I should be asking for help.
Lifeform Bri
"Lifeform Bri" <life...@thisplanet.here> wrote in message
news:N3a4c.780192$X%5.138176@pd7tw2no...
>
> > But patch the roof
> > And provide food
> > And ask for help
> > when you need it.
> >
> > Noah Sombrero
> >
>
> I'm really confused. I don't even know if I should be asking for help.
>
>
Never mind. The feeling will pass.
Noah Sombrero
The good thing about needing help is that you will not be confused about it.
Noah Sombrero
Noah Sombrero
> the wise recognize the suffering they see in others
> as a treasure hid within themselves
> moreover they hide it within themselves
> even so for the joy thereof
> do the wise sell all that they have
> to keep it for themselves --as their own
>
> how much more do the foolish appear
> who make a public spectacle of such matters be
> placing their friends upon judgments seat
How much simpler life is for those who know themselves to be unwise,
and so are free to not consider such things when urgent suffering presents
its self. If such an unwise person should feel lacking in the knowledge necessary
to mend that suffering, such a person would not hesitate to ask for help.
Noah Sombrero
Robert Epstein
tara wrote:
thanks Tara.
lots of love,
robert
Robert Epstein
Lifeform Bri wrote:
> "Robert Epstein" <epsteinr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:404FF3B...@yahoo.com...
>
>>
>>Lifeform Bri wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Robert Epstein" <epsteinr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:404D4337...@yahoo.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Lifeform Bri wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>I was just noticing the thickness of denial: It wasn't..., I
>>>>>>would never..., I couln't and don't...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>And you, Brian, shame on you. Licking Tang's ass like that. I mean,
>>>>it's even more unseemly than your usual confessional bullshit.
>>>>
>>>>robert
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>><smiling>
>>>
>>>
>>ah! a shit-eating grin; how appropriate!
>>
>>robert
>>
>>
>
> I was smiling at the truth. Would you rather I cower, Mistress?
>
>
>
sometimes a smile is hard to interpret. thanks for the update.
and that's "Ma'am" to you.
robert
Robert Epstein
Lifeform Bri wrote:
actually you are nowhere,
and so is the mirror.
robert
Robert Epstein
tara wrote:
no bats to the head from this boy.
a hug is nice though.
robert
Robert Epstein
deadman1952 wrote:
that's a good question. maybe I meant the royal "we've." not sure.
>>Since you seem to be totally lacking in compassion, your philosophical
>>knowledge counts for shit.
>>
>>Oh, and this does not count as me losing my cool, dear friend. It is
>>just a clear-eyed assessment of what you really are.
>>
>>Robert
>>
>
> Herein, Robert displays his mastery of words--and his "compassion" for
> Tang.
fair enough. but it's possible that this is compassionate, on the off
chance that Tang doesn't see what he's doing.
> Robert also proves that he is a hot big celibate at times (and spaces)
> when it comes to this newsgroup.
>
> Joey
I don't get that, Joey. you're over my head, or somewhere where it's not.
> P.S. By The Way, "Can you dig it? I knew that you could."
and I don't even get the quote. you're making me feel inadequate. oh well.
robert
Robert Epstein
deadman1952 wrote:
only one keyboard per geek?
robert
Robert Epstein
deadman1952 wrote:
this quote I get.
sometimes I think I've got nothing in my head
but Stones.
robert
Robert Epstein
Raan wrote:
it was a difficult period.
and she had very strong points of view as do we all.
personally I'd be happy to have her visit again.
robert
Robert Epstein
Fô wrote:
wow, talk about kicking a guy when he's up.
robert
Robert Epstein
Tang Huyen wrote:
yes in right if not in fact, as you say.
but our compassion only exists in judicious exercising of such rights.
well, I have to admit that all I'm left with really is the abyss, and I
opened it up myself. but it's not a bad place to stand, curtains ripped
aside.
if there's anything worthy of note here, do me a favor and take note of
it. otherwise, the moment is finished.
robert
Robert Epstein
Noah Sombrero wrote:
and when the thief comes to visit
give him a small gift
robert
deadman1952
<Raa...@One.org> wrote:
Actually, now that you mention it, I do (vaguely).
Forgive me if I was among the ones who attacked her (sincerely).
But I have since forgotten her name (or handle).
Joey
P.S. By The Way, I have probably said "Thank you" more than I've said
"I'm sorry" in my lifetime, but I'm saying both right now to you and
your woman.
deadman1952
<Raa...@One.org> wrote:
> "deadman1952" <deadm...@earthling.net> wrote in message
> news:110320040027349398%deadm...@earthling.net...
> > In article <404FF299...@yahoo.com>, Robert Epstein
> > <epsteinr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Fô wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 20:33:29 -0500, Tang Huyen <tang_...@yahoo.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>>I was just noticing the thickness of denial: It wasn't..., I
> > > >>>would never..., I couln't and don't...
> > > >>>
> > > >>I'd agree with you there. She was throwing cocky challenges (which
> > > >>is a polite way of putting it) around:
> > > >>
> > > >>"So much for on line Buddism. ha ha. figures!"
> > > >>
> > > >>"So...where does Buddhism/zen come into this. How does it help
> > > >>this real life situation."
> > > >>
> > > >>In alt.philosophy.zen Robyn asked her a relevant question:
> > > >>
> > > >>"If you don't mind my asking, if you're not really concerned
> > > >>about it, then why did you ask: "So...where does Buddhism/zen
> > > >>come into this. How does it help this real life situation."
> > > >>
> > > >>Tara to me seems well over her head here. She sounds like dizzy
> > > >>or drunk or something. And it has been two days.
> > > >>
> > > >>Tang Huyen
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > "Dizzy or drunk sounding" would be appropriate for anyone, I'd reckon,
> > > > given the circumstances. I don't think you should judge her 'over her
> > > > head'. It's unfair.
> > > > It's in exactly such circumstances that we find what we're made of,
> > > > rather than this comfy, virtual little b.b.s.
> > > >
> > > > "Mors certa, vita incerta"
> > > >
> > > > www.thehungersite.com
> > >
> > > Yup, Tang turns out to be the pernicious bitch we've sometimes suspected
> > > him of being. You're a cold little fucker at times, Tang.
> >
> > "We've...?" So who the hell is this "we've," Robert? You and Ron?
> >
> > > Since you seem to be totally lacking in compassion, your philosophical
> > > knowledge counts for shit.
> > >
> > > Oh, and this does not count as me losing my cool, dear friend. It is
> > > just a clear-eyed assessment of what you really are.
> > >
> > > Robert
> >
> > Herein, Robert displays his mastery of words--and his "compassion" for
> > Tang.
> >
> > Robert also proves that he is a hot big celibate at times (and spaces)
> > when it comes to this newsgroup.
> >
> > Joey
> >
> > P.S. By The Way, "Can you dig it? I knew that you could."
>
> Yes. I like how you said that.
> My somewhat simple and graphically sickening argument against glib
> rationalizations for abortion which are generally espoused by politically
> correct postmodernists, met with Robert's accusation that I lacked
> compassion for the plight of the individual female contemplating having an
> abortion and the anguish of her decision. The very fact of this anguish
> itself shows there is no glib rationalization possible and only leaves
> compassion as the means to approach the subject. But any way, Robert is
> passionate about such issues as part of his nature (and career choice), so
> it is to be expected. Hasn't he accused you of some such similar cold
> heartedness in the past? Weren't you being just a little bit cold hearted
> in the above post anyway??
> "Deadman is a person in your neighborhood."
All righty, then!
The problem here seems to be my confusion between the terms
"compassion" and "conpassion" (not to mention "propassion").
As for plain old "passion," I actually love Robert--even when he
insists on playing the tough guy with a heart of gold (or the sensitive
guy with a heart of ice).
Oops, wait a minute--that's my role!
"Mirror, mirror..."
Joey
P.S. By The Way, Ron, you do know how I really feel about--aw, never
mind.
deadman1952
<takuj...@aol.com> wrote:
What?
No quotation marks?
Thief!
Joey
P.S. By The Way, not "common," though.
deadman1952
<epsteinr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Nearest (according to Ron) and dearest Robert,
"Hot big celibate" is my version of the opposite (or mirror image) of
"cold little fucker."
Also, you are right: I'm somewhere your head is not.
Joey
P.S. By The Way, THE WARRIORS (1979). Or maybe Billy Crystal first.
Elephino. (And the correct answer is: Billy Crystal.)
deadman1952
<epsteinr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hah!
Good answer!
Joey
P.S. By The Way, laughing hurts me--so don't make me do it again.
deadman1952
<epsteinr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Did someone mention the English plural of my last name in Spanish?
Joey
P.S. By The Way, "When he was nearly thirteen, my brother Jem got his
arm badly broken at the elbow."
Allen L. Barker
Tara,
How are you dealing with this in your own mind? You asked
where Zen/Buddhism comes into this. It comes into this in
your own mind. I don't mean to be trite, though it may
sound like that. Zen flows out from practice; it is not
some set of rules. At some point you have to play it by
ear. You chose to take this person in, from your intuition
and free working. I can't second-guess it, and no one else
can either. Some people have offered some good advice, which
you should certainly consider.
Take care of yourself, trust yourself, but be careful not
to get caught in false notions. Keep up whatever Zen
practice you subscribe to. I'll beam whatever good karma
I can your way :-).
--
Mind Control: TT&P ==> http://www.datafilter.com/mc
Home page: http://www.datafilter.com/alb
Allen Barker
Takuji seiji
<somb...@mm.st> writes:
>Subject: Re: Re: Re: so
>From: Noah Sombrero <somb...@mm.st>
>Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:49:13 -0800
indeed the ignorant do not consider such things
when it is not their own urgent sufferings
Takuji seiji
<deadm...@earthling.net> writes:
>Subject: Re: so
>From: deadman1952 <deadm...@earthling.net>
>Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:42:36 GMT
indeed
I am guilty
small tortoiseshell
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 9:26:15 -0500, small tortoiseshell wrote
> (in message <8aae3013.04031...@posting.google.com>):
>
> >>
> >> bless you small tortoiseshell. I'm overwhelmed by all of the kindness
> >> here.
> >> Silent or not, doesn't matter, I can feel it.
> >>
> >> tara
> >
> > ha! its so simple really. other IS self. the kindness you 'feel', as i
> > see it, is your 'greater' self aligning with your 'lesser' self, and
> > at some point, perhaps they merge, . if one cannot face other, how the
> > heck can one face One-Self ? i go on my nose all the time, running
> > into challenges far beyond my capacity, .but just right now these
> > days, i-m flowing the flow and mother universe is showering me with
> > blessings, so
> >
> > happy growings Tara :)
>
>
> :)
> even growing sideways, is still a growing. We all eventually find the sun.
>
> tara
how is your friend?
would it be to much to ask you to read this poem by William Blake to him? :
The Tyger
Tyger Tyger, burning bright,
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy fearful symmetry
In what distant deeps or skies.
Burnt the fire of thine eyes!
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand, dare sieze the fire!
And what shoulder, & what art.
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand! & what dread feet!
What the hammer! what the chain,
In what furnace was thy brain
What the anvil, what dread grasp,
Dare its deadly terrors clasp!
When the stars threw down their spear
And water'd heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see
Did he who made the Lamb make thee!
Tyger Tyger burning bright,
In the forests of the night:
What immortal hand or eye,
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry.
small tortoiseshell
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 9:26:15 -0500, small tortoiseshell wrote
> (in message <8aae3013.04031...@posting.google.com>):
>
> >>
> >> bless you small tortoiseshell. I'm overwhelmed by all of the kindness
> >> here.
> >> Silent or not, doesn't matter, I can feel it.
> >>
> >> tara
> >
> > ha! its so simple really. other IS self. the kindness you 'feel', as i
> > see it, is your 'greater' self aligning with your 'lesser' self, and
> > at some point, perhaps they merge, . if one cannot face other, how the
> > heck can one face One-Self ? i go on my nose all the time, running
> > into challenges far beyond my capacity, .but just right now these
> > days, i-m flowing the flow and mother universe is showering me with
> > blessings, so
> >
> > happy growings Tara :)
>
>
> :)
> even growing sideways, is still a growing. We all eventually find the sun.
>
> tara
heres a woodcut by e.munch made in 1899.
Raan
To be honest I found it pretty distracting to have her on here lol She has
since found her own forums for discussion on her own exclusive site. I will
certainly pass on your sentiment though.
--
></>
www.freewebs.com/raan
Raan
I will certainly convey your message to her. I do not particularly recall
who did what at the time and have no wish to rehash any of it. She was Tala
at first but out of deference to Tara changer her name to Kayla. I
appreciate your comment and we both accept your apologies (uncertain if that
shouldn't go both ways) and you are of course, welcome.
--
></>
www.freewebs.com/raan
Raan
I doubt I know how your really feel about anything Joey.
Were you referring to Mister Rogers by any chance at all?
--
></>
www.freewebs.com/raan