Who's the guy on the bull?
Harry Flashman
BJ (vjo...@istar.ca) wrote:
: I think it might be from the Ten Bulls story...
:
: "...In the twelfth centurythe Chinese master Kakuan drew
: the pictures of the Ten Bulls, baseing them on ealier
: Taoist bulls, and wrote comments in prose and verse..."
: pg211 chp 21 Entering the Stream Edited by Samuel Bercholz
: and Sherab Chodzin Kohn
:
: I think it is an alagory of the spiritual path and/or
: tameing the mind (tameing the bull?)
Thanks. This is sort of along the lines I was thinking. For more practical
reasons, even though this is sort of what comes to my mind, I was
wondering if the frequency of this image in my reading, is an indication
of whether this is a "cultural icon" of sorts? In other words, is this
*the* accepted message of the image? (Sort of like the vinegar tasters
paintings.)
Scott
lisa
Harry Flashman wrote:
>
> Hello.
>
> Recently, in my studies I've been seeing a few repeated images in early
> Chinese art.
>
> I remember once reading a story about someone riding a tiger as a show of inner peace (see TTC chapter 50 as an example). Does anyone remember
the name of this gentleman? Does anyone havea translation of this story
if it exists?
Scott,
I looked in Joseph Campbell's, _The Mythic Image_, and came across a
piece of a man and a tiger from the Shang Dynasty, 1523-1027 BC, but the
man is not riding the tiger. In this one the tiger is quite a bit more
imposing than the man and has sort of melded with him. Campbell's
commentary:
Interpreters have differed as to whether the animal represented here is
meant to be eating or protecting the human being, who appears, indeed to
be rather more pleased than discomposed by what is occurring. However,
the tiger in China...is a beast symbolic of earth, and as such
representative (whether male or female) of the female, receptive, yin
principle in nature; the yang, the male , being represented by the
dragon... In this Chinese piece, it is the feline symbol of the consuming
power of Mother Earth that is seen taking her willing child back to her
bosom.
> Also, I frequently see images of someone riding a bull. Is there a
> similar (the same?) story behind this image? Who is this?
This is different than the one of Lao riding the ox out of town?
Hope this helps.
Lisa
BJ
Harry Flashman <sir...@clark.net> wrote in article
<5r50t0$d...@clarknet.clark.net>...
>
> Hello.
>
> Recently, in my studies I've been seeing a few repeated
images in early
> Chinese art.
>
> I remember once reading a story about someone riding a
tiger as a show of
> inner peace (see TTC chapter 50 as an example). Does
anyone remember the
> name of this gentleman? Does anyone havea translation of
this story if it
> exists?
>
> Also, I frequently see images of someone riding a bull.
Is there a
> similar (the same?) story behind this image? Who is this?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Scott
>
>
I think it might be from the Ten Bulls story...
"...In the twelfth centurythe Chinese master Kakuan drew
the pictures of the Ten Bulls, baseing them on ealier
Taoist bulls, and wrote comments in prose and verse..."
pg211 chp 21 Entering the Stream Edited by Samuel Bercholz
and Sherab Chodzin Kohn
I think it is an alagory of the spiritual path and/or
tameing the mind (tameing the bull?)
Any body else know?
Miller Jew
ref: Re: Who's the guy on the bull?
"BJ" <vjo...@istar.ca> wrote:
Harry Flashman <sir...@clark.net> wrote:
> Hello.
>
Recently, in my studies I've been seeing a few repeated
images in early Chinese art.
>
> I remember once reading a story about someone riding a
>tiger as a show of inner peace (see TTC chapter 50 as an example).
>Does anyone remember the name of this gentleman? Does anyone have a
>translation of this story if it exists?
"BJ":
>Also, I frequently see images of someone riding a bull.
>Is there a similar (the same?) story behind this image? Who is this?
>Scott
I haven't run across art work showing a person riding a tiger but in
Kristofer Schipper's recent book "The Taoist Body" shows something
like this on its front cover jacket. It illustrates "Chang Kuo-lao,
Taoist statesman and one of the Eight Immortals, riding backward on
his *mule*."
With such symbolic similarities it wants me to work a relationship
between the human and the animal world.
BJ:
>I think it might be from the Ten Bulls story...
>"...In the twelfth century the Chinese master Kakuan drew
>the pictures of the Ten Bulls, basing them on earlier
>Taoist bulls, and wrote comments in prose and verse..."
>pg211 chp 21 Entering the Stream Edited by Samuel Bercholz
>and Sherab Chodzin Kohn
>
>I think it is an alagory of the spiritual path and/or
>taming the mind (taming the bull?)
>
>Any body else know?
Indeed it's a famous asiatic story depicting rich (instructional)
metaphors. I'm looking at the "Ten Bulls story" right now, and
interesting enough its graphically-illustrated and commented in the
"First Principles of Philosophy" by Manly P. Hall, the former
president-founder of the Philosophical Research Society.
Regards,
--Zhou
Harry Flashman
lisa (lk...@gte.net) wrote:
: Scott,
: I looked in Joseph Campbell's, _The Mythic Image_, and came across a
: piece of a man and a tiger from the Shang Dynasty, 1523-1027 BC, but the
: man is not riding the tiger. In this one the tiger is quite a bit more
: imposing than the man and has sort of melded with him. Campbell's
: commentary:
:
: Interpreters have differed as to whether the animal represented here is
: meant to be eating or protecting the human being, who appears, indeed to
: be rather more pleased than discomposed by what is occurring. However,
: the tiger in China...is a beast symbolic of earth, and as such
: representative (whether male or female) of the female, receptive, yin
: principle in nature; the yang, the male , being represented by the
: dragon... In this Chinese piece, it is the feline symbol of the consuming
: power of Mother Earth that is seen taking her willing child back to her
: bosom.
Thank you. This was interesting. I'll have to look into this further.
: This is different than the one of Lao riding the ox out of town?
This is what I want to find out. Is the image of Lao riding the Ox an
"icon"? In other words, does it appear that often and is suposed to be
that easily identifiable in Chinese culture? If I see a painting of a man
on an Ox, am I supposed to (according to the artist) assume it is Lao? Or
is there a more well known tale?
Any one?
Thanks.
Scott
Brian Funk
Harry Flashman wrote:
> Also, I frequently see images of someone riding a bull. Is there a
> similar (the same?) story behind this image? Who is this?
Hop- a-long lee, famoue bull rider! Rode the ro-daa-o circuit out of Handan.
To really know 'ol Hop just look into the mirror..................
bird
Miller Jew
ref: Subject: Re: Who's the guy on the bull?
sir...@clark.net (Harry Flashman) wrote:
lisa (lk...@gte.net) wrote:
Lisa:
>I looked in Joseph Campbell's, _The Mythic Image_, and came across a
>piece of a man and a tiger from the Shang Dynasty, 1523-1027 BC, but
>the man is not riding the tiger. In this one the tiger is quite a
>bit more imposing than the man and has sort of melded with him.
>Campbell's commentary:
>
>Interpreters have differed as to whether the animal represented here
>is meant to be eating or protecting the human being, who appears,
>indeed to be rather more pleased than discomposed by what is
>occurring. However, the tiger in China...is a beast symbolic of
>earth, and as such representative (whether male or female) of the
>female, receptive, yin principle in nature; the yang, the male ,
>being represented by the dragon... In this Chinese piece, it is the
>feline symbol of the consuming power of Mother Earth that is seen
>taking her willing child back to her bosom.
Scott:
>Thank you. This was interesting. I'll have to look into this further.
Tx too Lisa.
Scott:
>This is different than the one of Lao riding the ox out of town?
>
>This is what I want to find out. Is the image of Lao riding the Ox an
>"icon"? In other words, does it appear that often and is suposed to
>be hat easily identifiable in Chinese culture? If I see a painting of
>a man on an Ox, am I supposed to (according to the artist) assume it
>is Lao? Or is there a more well known tale?
>
>Any one?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Scott
Before I get into its popular culture, the pictoral "icon" makes me
want to touch into its *symbolic* interpreting for whatever underlying
cause might have materialized it. Hence looking at its forces more
than relying on it as a popular image. I.e. touching into the idea or
archetype behind the imagery; as we can establish its subjective
intent onto our objective (materialized) viewing. So in introducing
it in this way of seeing an "icon", I'll comment:
Scott:
>This is what I want to find out. Is the image of Lao riding the Ox an
>"icon"?
Yes and no. *Yes* for a purposeful-reason, upon someone who --at its
first (pictorial) sighting already knows its meaning intellectually --
(and even better after having tapped into it intuitively) and *no* to
those that are (yet) knowing of its underlying meaning and takes it's
external mythology *literally*, rather then for its created purposing
-- mythology usually *hides* something. In this external case (or
"popular cultural" case) thinking it's a frustrated (or in some cases,
an individualistically-free-thinking) Lao getting out of the
political/social chaos and moving west) would not be fully correct
because there are more parts *underneath* its surface imagery.
I take the meaning of the ox and lao as meaning our body-medium is in
harmonious action with our spiritual mind, like our feet automatically
does our walking as our head feels to do so. Similarly, when Lisa
quoted Campbell saying "whether the animal represented here is meant
to be eating or protecting..." <-- note "protection" as an
anthropomorphic "icon" for "popular" physical well-being's sake...
"HOWEVER, the tiger in China...is a beast SYMBOLIC of earth"... breaks
the literal empirical or religious categorizing of (any) animal
qualities into (our) mental/intuitive meaning (AND its intentions) and
forces us to look at the "earth" too. And this is what Campbell
instructed here. Oft times this SYMBOLIC investigation allows us to
enter into the hidden purposes for having illustrated it.
Scott:
>In other words, does it appear that often and is supposed to be
>that easily identifiable in Chinese culture?...
Yes. It is so by its cultivating and we will see this graphically
illustrated quite often in this field of study. However many Chinese
do not cultivate what you are cultivating.
Scott:
>If I see a painting of a man on an Ox, am I supposed to (according to
>the artist) assume it is Lao? Or is there a more well known tale?
As a former visual/symbolist artist sometimes you may have to look at
its title to make your question more answerable. Otherwise, in a
traditional way of looking at this kind of artwork, you can can assume
it so, because --in this instance-- you're showing an "Ox"(water
buffalo) and it popularly attaches itself to Lao. A
traditionally-taught visual artist (however ones ethnicity) would
probably want to show its representative likeness (in this case- - of
an ox and Lao) to make *clear* it represents these common (cultural)
forms in order for it to represent *something else*. In the course of
this if you venture into symbolic studies you'll will find many
relationships about pictures of a w/man riding on (any animal) that
can be presented through this technique. I'm looking at a picture now
of a Kuan Yin riding on a dragon --or similarly-- of (the Greek) Atlas
bearing up the vault of heaven.
Scott:
>This is different than the one of Lao riding the ox out of town?
In Chinese mythology Lao is definitely shown riding the ox/buffalo out
of town, but there's that catch. It's mythology, and if we look into
what's hidden in this mythological story (ft) you'll be able to
capture many things that can change the *picture*. (To say the
least, I am sure many participants here can take this *ox ride*
further) >g<
Regards,
--Zhou
ft: Study any Campbell books; a great mediator at addressing and
revealing mythology's hidden agendas.
Wolfgang I Waas
BJ wrote:
> I think it might be from the Ten Bulls story...
>
> "...In the twelfth centurythe Chinese master Kakuan drew
> the pictures of the Ten Bulls, baseing them on ealier
> Taoist bulls, and wrote comments in prose and verse..."
> pg211 chp 21 Entering the Stream Edited by Samuel Bercholz
> and Sherab Chodzin Kohn
>
> I think it is an alagory of the spiritual path and/or
> tameing the mind (tameing the bull?)
>
The ten (earlier eight) bulls story may be traced back to India, it was
elephants in the beginning, if I remember rightly - but the guy on the
bull's back, might it not be simply Lao-tzu retiring to the west?
(cf. the wonderful poem by Bertolt Brecht - surely there's an english
translation somewhere)
All the best to all
Wolfgang
!
lisa (lk...@gte.net):
>>I looked in Joseph Campbell's, _The Mythic Image_, and came across a
>>piece of a man and a tiger from the Shang Dynasty, 1523-1027 BC, but
>>the man is not riding the tiger. In this one the tiger is quite a
>>bit more imposing than the man and has sort of melded with him.
>>Campbell's commentary:
>>
>>Interpreters have differed as to whether the animal represented here
>>is meant to be eating or protecting the human being, who appears,
>>indeed to be rather more pleased than discomposed by what is
>>occurring. However, the tiger in China...is a beast symbolic of
>>earth, and as such representative (whether male or female) of the
>>female, receptive, yin principle in nature; the yang, the male ,
>>being represented by the dragon... In this Chinese piece, it is the
>>feline symbol of the consuming power of Mother Earth that is seen
>>taking her willing child back to her bosom.
or manifesting as a part of an empowered being
Scott:
>>This is different than the one of Lao riding the ox out of town?
yes
#> ...Is the image of Lao riding the Ox an "icon"? In other words, does
#> it appear that often and is suposed to be hat easily identifiable in
#> Chinese culture? If I see a painting of a man on an Ox, am I
#> supposed to (according to the artist) assume it is Lao?
probably most common to the Chinese, yes
zho...@ix.netcom.com(Miller Jew):
>As a former visual/symbolist artist sometimes you may have to look at
>its title to make your question more answerable.
then again, some artists say best to interpret based on one's own condition.
do not be worried about the intent of the artist, for this is irretrievably
lost to todays' world. recapturing the origin is best done interior, not
through some historical and long-lost artist's work
thus:
ox -- the resistant and wild (though eventually domesticated) portion of
the individual
riding the ox (note often within bit) -- in tune with this energy
out of town -- liberating ourselves from the shell into which 'civilization'
has conditioned us
!
Harry Flashman <sir...@clark.net> (?):
#> ...someone riding a tiger as a show of inner peace ....
#> Does anyone remember the name of this gentleman? Does anyone havea
#> translation of this story if it exists?
chang tao ling? fu hsi? yellow emperor?
#> ...images of someone riding a bull. Is there a similar (the same?)
#> story behind this image?
no
#> Who is this?
10 zen circles. 'who' is the wrong question
water buffalo. lao tzu or many immortals (xi wang mu too)
"BJ" <vjo...@istar.ca>:
# ...from the Ten Bulls story...
# "...In the twelfth centurythe Chinese master Kakuan drew
# the pictures of the Ten Bulls, baseing them on ealier
# Taoist bulls, and wrote comments in prose and verse..."
# pg211 chp 21 Entering the Stream Edited by Samuel Bercholz
# and Sherab Chodzin Kohn
# I think it is an alagory of the spiritual path and/or tameing the
# mind (tameing the bull?)
# Any body else know?
mind at one with body, motive material force in alliance with
integrated personal identity, motion, activity, power