spiritual transformation
shazi
the ancient dingzhou wenzi, the huainanzi,
and the received wenzi:
"penalties and punishments
are not sufficient to change customes
executions are not sufficient to avert treason.
only spiritual transformation has value."
in a commentary i have of the wenzi
from the PRC, spiritual transformation ("shen hua")
is defined as 'ziran zhi hua',
or 'natural transformation'.
perhaps the PRC version betrays
a bias away from the interpretation of 'shen'
as spirit or spiritual, but the composite term
'ziran' was already known to the authors
of the huainanzi and both wenzi versions.
i suspect that "shen hua"/spiritual transformation
has a deeper meaning.
not sure words can express it, though.
-shazi
noname
When you abandon your natural laziness and begin to think that life is
too short for wasting time, when every moment must be productive and
useful, you have lost sight of your own death and the realization that
anything other than the most frivolous wasting of time is throwing
your life into the abyss. There is some really cool stuff shattered
on the rocks at the bottom and if you spend several days poking around
without goal you might find a way back to the path; if not, lay down
and take a nap.
--
when you can't remember what you sig-line means
it's time to change it.
Bao Pu
> there is a line in common between
> the ancient dingzhou wenzi, thehuainanzi,
> and the received wenzi:
>
> "penalties and punishments
> are not sufficient to change customes
> executions are not sufficient to avert treason.
> only spiritual transformation has value."
>
> in a commentary i have of the wenzi
> from the PRC, spiritual transformation ("shen hua")
> is defined as 'ziran zhi hua',
> or 'natural transformation'.
> perhaps the PRC version betrays
> a bias away from the interpretation of 'shen'
> as spirit or spiritual, but the composite term
> 'ziran' was already known to the authors
>
> i suspect that "shen hua"/spiritual transformation
> has a deeper meaning.
>
> not sure words can express it, though.
>
> -shazi
Hi Shazi,
I've seen the term before. I think it might convey the same meaning as
Zihua 自化, as in Laozi 37.
In Huainanzi 1, we have:
舜: 口不設言，手不指麾，執玄德於心，而化馳若神。
Shun: "he spoke no words of instruction nor gestured any commands, and
yet, because he harbored dark De in his heart, his transforming
influence galloped everywhere with spirited efficacy." Lau & Ames p.
91 (Also found in Wenzi 1, but is attributed to the Zhenren).
Roger Ames discusses Shenhua on pages 133-5 of The Art of Rulership.
On page 58 he wrote, ""This notion of 'godlike
transformation' (Shenhua) is very close to the traditional conception
of virtue - a potency which encourages the natural development and
proper operation of the empire ... the potency of the ruler penetrates
and favorably influences the cosmic order ..."
Good and health and harmony,
Bao Pu
![{:-])))'s profile photo](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a/default-user=s40-c)
{:-])))
> shazi <shazi.dao...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> i suspect that "shen hua"/spiritual transformation
>> has a deeper meaning.
>>
>> not sure words can express it, though.
Lots of levels and meanings may be.
Realms one may enter and pass thru.
At times, everything appears bleak.
At times, everything appears hopeful.
At times, wonderful. At times, terrible.
The world may or may not have changed.
One's spirit may have gone thru clouds.
Now in the mountains, at the peak.
Now in the valley, in the shade.
Without leaving a room,
a world of room.
>as in Laozi 37.
Flipping a perspective,
is life seriously serious?
Games within games can
take shape and involve one.
Is life joyous and playful?
Sitting in the wings, off-stage,
one may take flight and sea
waves of transformation in place.
>Shun: "he spoke no words of instruction nor gestured any commands, and
>yet, because he harbored dark De in his heart, his transforming
>influence galloped everywhere with spirited efficacy."
>Roger Ames discusses Shenhua on pages 133-5 of The Art of Rulership.
>On page 58 he wrote, ""This notion of 'godlike
>transformation' (Shenhua) is very close to the traditional conception
>of virtue - a potency which encourages the natural development and
>proper operation of the empire ... the potency of the ruler penetrates
>and favorably influences the cosmic order ..."
A ruler of inches.
I can imagine however,
a leader so fine and great
as to simply be. Being simple,
simply being, spreads throughout
the land far and wide. Eventually,
in a span or a blink, all is well.
-ribbit
shazi
> shazi wrote:
> > only spiritual transformation has value."
>
> > has a deeper meaning.
>
> > not sure words can express it, though.
> Hi Shazi,
hey.
> I've seen the term before. I think it might convey the same meaning as
> Zihua 自化, as in Laozi 37.
zihua - self-transformation.
not sure. in one sense, shen/spirit is the self.
but it is also more. i sense a distinct difference
between things-transforming-of-themselves
versus spiritual-transformation.
while self may be isolated,
shen, in my reading, is the spirit-in-harmony-with-all-else.
transformation only occurs in connectedness with tianxia.
> In Huainanzi 1, we have:
> 舜: 口不設言，手不指麾，執玄德於心，而化馳若神。
> Shun: "he spoke no words of instruction nor gestured any commands, and
> yet, because he harbored dark De in his heart, his transforming
> influence galloped everywhere with spirited efficacy." Lau & Ames p.
> 91 (Also found in Wenzi 1, but is attributed to the Zhenren).
wenzi 1.8 has some of that, but not all.
perhaps related. in wenzi 1.8
與造化者為人，執玄德于心，而化馳如神。
one who participates in transformation makes men,
grasping dark De in his heart,
and transforms speedily like a spirit.
(last two lines same as lao & ames text,
but i cannot see how they got 'his transforming
influence' from 'hua'/transformation, or where
'everywhere' or 'efficacy' come from. these
words aren't in the text.
> Roger Ames discusses Shenhua on pages 133-5 of The Art of Rulership.
> On page 58 he wrote, ""This notion of 'godlike
> transformation' (Shenhua) is very close to the traditional conception
> of virtue - a potency which encourages the natural development and
> proper operation of the empire ... the potency of the ruler penetrates
> and favorably influences the cosmic order ..."
ah, but the question is whether the wang/di transform,
or do they establish the environment for spiritual transformation
among the people?
-shazi
shazi
>shazi wrote:
>>i suspect that "shen hua"/spiritual transformation
>>has a deeper meaning.
>>
>>not sure words can express it, though.
>>
>>-shazi
>
>When you abandon your natural laziness and begin to think that life is
>too short for wasting time, when every moment must be productive and
>useful, you have lost sight of your own death and the realization that
>anything other than the most frivolous wasting of time is throwing
>your life into the abyss. There is some really cool stuff shattered
>on the rocks at the bottom and if you spend several days poking around
>without goal you might find a way back to the path; if not, lay down
>and take a nap.
a nap would be good.
what's wrong with natural laziness?
why must every moment be productive?
what is 'useful'?
i think i'd prefer to be a gnarly tree.
-shazi
shazi
>baopu wrote:
>> shazi wrote:
>
>>> i suspect that "shen hua"/spiritual transformation
>>> has a deeper meaning.
>>>
>>> not sure words can express it, though.
>
>Lots of levels and meanings may be.
>Realms one may enter and pass thru.
>
>At times, everything appears bleak.
>At times, everything appears hopeful.
>At times, wonderful. At times, terrible.
>The world may or may not have changed.
>One's spirit may have gone thru clouds.
>Now in the mountains, at the peak.
>Now in the valley, in the shade.
>Without leaving a room,
>a world of room.
what is spirit, then?
in a flock of birds,
the ability to fly in formation
emerges as a characteristic of the flock,
not as the individual bird.
perhaps 'spirit' is the emergent property
of the being-in-relation-to-that-which-is.
if so, flowing/flying through the clouds
on the mountains or in the valley
or visiting the world while staying put
is the connection to what is,
and the experience of connectedness thereby.
>>as in Laozi 37.
>
>Flipping a perspective,
>is life seriously serious?
>Games within games can
>take shape and involve one.
>Is life joyous and playful?
>Sitting in the wings, off-stage,
>one may take flight and sea
>waves of transformation in place.
life is.
i zhuang zhou once dreamt...
...this called the transformation of things.
the joy of being a butterfly
was somehow a transformation.
or was it because zhuang could not
tell what he was?
>I can imagine however,
>a leader so fine and great
>as to simply be. Being simple,
>simply being, spreads throughout
>the land far and wide. Eventually,
>in a span or a blink, all is well.
in the era of han wendi and jingdi
under the influence of the huang-lao
beliefs of lady dou, the land prospered.
sure, there were issues, but in the end,
the people experienced wuwei in leadership,
relaxation of the punishments and penalties,
1.5% tax rates, yet the granaries were full
and the realm was at peace.
in this context, the writings of wenzi
and huainanzi arose. i find that interesting.
i find it equally interesting that the
received wenzi and received zhuangzi
(the versions we have today) arose during
the period of neotaoism.
there seems to be a kind of power
in 'spiritual transformation'.
>-ribbit
if a well-frog is imbued with such a spirit,
can it experience a n'ocean?
-shazi
Bao Pu
> > Hi Shazi,
>
> hey.
>
> > I've seen the term before. I think it might convey the same meaning as
> > Zihua 自化, as in Laozi 37.
>
> zihua - self-transformation.
> not sure. in one sense, shen/spirit is the self.
> but it is also more. i sense a distinct difference
> between things-transforming-of-themselves
> versus spiritual-transformation.
I read Shen-spirit as spirit-like. That is, mysteriously efficacious.
Harmony,
Bao Pu
noname
Are you practicing your speed-reading again shazi, or just not paying
attention?
noname
>jz wrote:
>
>>baopu wrote:
>>> shazi wrote:
>>
>>>> i suspect that "shen hua"/spiritual transformation
>>>> has a deeper meaning.
>>>>
>>>> not sure words can express it, though.
>>
>>Lots of levels and meanings may be.
>>Realms one may enter and pass thru.
>>
>>At times, everything appears bleak.
>>At times, everything appears hopeful.
>>At times, wonderful. At times, terrible.
>>The world may or may not have changed.
>>One's spirit may have gone thru clouds.
>>Now in the mountains, at the peak.
>>Now in the valley, in the shade.
>>Without leaving a room,
>>a world of room.
>
>what is spirit, then?
>in a flock of birds,
>the ability to fly in formation
>emerges as a characteristic of the flock,
>not as the individual bird.
Yet it is the bird's comfort in nearness that makes the flock.
>perhaps 'spirit' is the emergent property
>of the being-in-relation-to-that-which-is.
Maybe. Are you wearing a Stumper hat?
shazi
>shazi <shazi....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>noname wrote:
>>
>>>shazi wrote:
>>>>i suspect that "shen hua"/spiritual transformation
>>>>has a deeper meaning.
>>>>
>>>>not sure words can express it, though.
>>>>
>>>>-shazi
>>>
>>>When you abandon your natural laziness and begin to think that life is
>>>too short for wasting time, when every moment must be productive and
>>>useful, you have lost sight of your own death and the realization that
>>>anything other than the most frivolous wasting of time is throwing
>>>your life into the abyss. There is some really cool stuff shattered
>>>on the rocks at the bottom and if you spend several days poking around
>>>without goal you might find a way back to the path; if not, lay down
>>>and take a nap.
>>
>>a nap would be good.
>>
>>what's wrong with natural laziness?
>>why must every moment be productive?
>>what is 'useful'?
>>
>>i think i'd prefer to be a gnarly tree.
>>
>>-shazi
>
>Are you practicing your speed-reading again shazi,
well, with all these messages in a.p.t,
i just have to speed-read...
but reading again, i can see how i missed your meaning.
it just took me at least four reads to get it.
i'm just slow that way.
>or just not paying attention?
well, there's that too.
-shazi
shazi
>shazi wrote:
>>what is spirit, then?
>>in a flock of birds,
>>the ability to fly in formation
>>emerges as a characteristic of the flock,
>>not as the individual bird.
>Yet it is the bird's comfort in nearness that makes the flock.
somehow, yes.
to me that closeness/nearness/comfort
is the place where spirit resides.
in the boundaries between.
>>perhaps 'spirit' is the emergent property
>>of the being-in-relation-to-that-which-is.
>Maybe. Are you wearing a Stumper hat?
now that's an interesting comment.
one hat he wore was the one with 'emergence'
written on it. but if you'll recall,
he kept saying that 'dao is emergent',
which i never found to make sense,
because that which exists before
does not emerge from the 10k,
but the other way around.
hence, i did not say that above.
i said that perhaps spirit is an emergent property.
evidence of an underlying way of things.
big difference, imo.
take, for instance, the natural neural network of the mind.
billions of cells each having its own microcosm,
yet working as an integrated whole,
but not through any will or mind of itself,
the mind emerges from the natural neural network.
to many, that presence of 'mind' is spirit;
explaining somehow that such a coherence
and consciousness has a supernatural origin,
and for the sake of religion, a destination.
but it may not be so.
in fact, there is far more evidence that the mind
is simply emergent from the network.
he flock is a type of emergent network,
perhaps in some ways like the mind.
because of, as you say, the bird's comfort in nearness,
or whatever causes the emergence, the flock becomes
an entity, a being, a presence of 'mind';
again, not through any will or mind of itself,
the flock emerges from the underlying principle.
flocks, families, communities, usenet groups, nations...
each emerges with its sense of shen/spirit;
or as in the wenzi,
'the space between heaven and earth is the body of one being'.
therefore,
'I' am not just me,
'I' am not just consciousness
'I' am also the dream
'I' am somehow connected to all that is
yet,
'I' am nothing at all.
some may call this 'the transformation of things'.
-shazi
shazi
>> > I've seen the term before. I think it might convey the same meaning as
>> > Zihua ??, as in Laozi 37.
>>
>> zihua - self-transformation.
>> not sure. in one sense, shen/spirit is the self.
>> but it is also more. i sense a distinct difference
>> between things-transforming-of-themselves
>> versus spiritual-transformation.
>
>I read Shen-spirit as spirit-like. That is, mysteriously efficacious.
shen has many meanings,
spirit, spirit-like, spiritual...
and i think 'mysteriously efficacious'
works very well in most contexts.
but the question was more along what
spiritual transformation (shenhua) is.
sure, mysteriously efficacious transformtion wroks,
but how is that realted to zihua/self transformation?
seem to be two different things...
-shazi
{:-])))
[...shazi <shazi....@gmail.com> wrote] ...
>Are you practicing your speed-reading again shazi, or just not paying
>attention?
>when you can't remember what you sig-line means
>it's time to change it.
dew spelling counts
{:-])))
>jz wrote:
>>baopu wrote:
>>> shazi wrote:
>>
>>>> i suspect that "shen hua"/spiritual transformation
>>>> has a deeper meaning.
>there seems to be a kind of power
>in 'spiritual transformation'.
>
>>-ribbit
>
>if a well-frog is imbued with such a spirit,
>can it experience a n'ocean?
Aye.
Texts may be transformative.
-tis a secret tho,
hidden in plane sites
{:-])))
>baopu wrote:
>> shazi wrote:
>ah, but the question is whether the wang/di transform,
>or do they establish the environment for spiritual transformation
>among the people?
Carving blocks.
Does heads do?
Does tails do?
Is there a spoon?
^@%>---*=#
"{:-])))" <.........@.........> wrote in message
news:ja122499dp3vj4029...@4ax.com...
> shazi wrote:
>>baopu wrote:
>>> shazi wrote:
>
>>ah, but the question is whether the wang/di transform,
>>or do they establish the environment for spiritual transformation
>>among the people?
>
> Carving blocks.
> Does heads do?
do what ?
> Does tails do?
same as heads ? 50 50
> Is there a spoon?
fork yes
noname
When a person reads at a thing and misses its meaning, it is never
entirely his fault because someone wrote it; my bad.
noname
Not unless some unnamed sumbitch oars you upside the head.
--
noname
This "emergence" stuff is too complex for me. I can never figure out
who's on first. Essence maybe I can come closer to understanding. Or
maybe it's all over my head.
noname
Keynes was talking about "incomprehensible contradictions". When you
ponder an incomprehensible contradiction and turn it over to find that
underneath is a way of viewing it that is not contradictory at all,
you may have undergone a spiritual transformation. Or maybe just a
brain fart.
noname
A new perfume called "Eau de Spoon", called that because it smells of
the spoon's essence... sniffed, it throws you into the zone where
spoons and mountains become your very own chorus line... an essential
for every hiker on the way.
shazi
> shazi wrote:
> >flocks, families, communities, usenet groups, nations...
> >each emerges with its sense of shen/spirit;
> >or as in the wenzi,
> >'the space between heaven and earth is the body of one being'.
>
> This "emergence" stuff is too complex for me. I can never figure out
> who's on first. Essence maybe I can come closer to
> understanding. Or maybe it's all over my head.
I think a lot of confusion 'emerges' over emergence.
i'm not sure it's that hard,
or at least let's say there's a way of looking at it
that isn't that hard.
or maybe i just need to simplify it to my understanding
or lack thereof.
say the molecules in water individually
have a tendency to attract other molecules
at specific angles. when water becomes solid,
those angles will cause the ice to tend to
a structure, an order of sorts.
the result is not purely random, but
rather, a crystalline order 'emerges'
from the freezing water.
the snowflake is a thing
one of ten-k
emerging from molecule things.
but the snowflake doesn't operate alone either.
or maybe sometimes it does.
but a snowfall, a blizzard are things two
operating in non-random *ways*
emerging in an order of sorts.
the underlying tendency of the small
emerges as structure in the large.
likewise, as you noted, the tendency
of the birds to feel part-of the collective flock
emerges as a behavior of the flock as a whole.
human groups seem to operate in similar *ways*.
an individual may be kind and thoughtful,
but when part-of a group,
sometimes, the collective aggregation
of the tendency for fear to elicit
thoughtless cruel reactions in the name
of self-preservation results in an emergent
order of a mob.
-shazi
noname
>noname wrote:
>
>> shazi wrote:
>
>> >flocks, families, communities, usenet groups, nations...
>> >each emerges with its sense of shen/spirit;
>> >or as in the wenzi,
>> >'the space between heaven and earth is the body of one being'.
>
>>
>> This "emergence" stuff is too complex for me. I can never figure out
>> who's on first. Essence maybe I can come closer to
>> understanding. Or maybe it's all over my head.
>
>I think a lot of confusion 'emerges' over emergence.
>i'm not sure it's that hard,
>or at least let's say there's a way of looking at it
>that isn't that hard.
>or maybe i just need to simplify it to my understanding
>or lack thereof.
I find the term "emergent" to be unnecessary and obfuscative.
>say the molecules in water individually
>have a tendency to attract other molecules
>at specific angles. when water becomes solid,
>those angles will cause the ice to tend to
>a structure, an order of sorts.
>the result is not purely random, but
>rather, a crystalline order 'emerges'
>from the freezing water.
>
>the snowflake is a thing
>one of ten-k
>emerging from molecule things.
>
>but the snowflake doesn't operate alone either.
>or maybe sometimes it does.
>but a snowfall, a blizzard are things two
>operating in non-random *ways*
>emerging in an order of sorts.
>
>the underlying tendency of the small
>emerges as structure in the large.
The essential nature of things can have many aspects.
>likewise, as you noted, the tendency
>of the birds to feel part-of the collective flock
>emerges as a behavior of the flock as a whole.
>
>human groups seem to operate in similar *ways*.
>an individual may be kind and thoughtful,
>but when part-of a group,
>sometimes, the collective aggregation
>of the tendency for fear to elicit
>thoughtless cruel reactions in the name
>of self-preservation results in an emergent
>order of a mob.
The world is as it is, what does that say about the essential nature
of Tao?
shazi
> I find the term "emergent" to be unnecessary and obfuscative.
i think many try to obfuscate the word.
remember that stumper's worldview
was affected by zen
to him, language itself was a koan,
and his 'stumping' on terms like 'emergent'
was intended to elicit a nihilistic reaction.
'twas a game without an end, i found.
and the result was to vacate the term,
to render it 'unnecessary and obfuscative'.
otoh, leaving stumper's damage of the term aside,
'emergence' may explain something:
the fact that structure exists in the 10k
often in well-defined ways, is clearly a
result of the tendency of the underlying
components.
wikipedia has a pretty straightforward
article on it, without all the obfuscation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
That tendency is based in dao, imo.
whether you call that 'jing'/essential nature
or de or whatever, i'm not sure it makes a difference.
> >the underlying tendency of the small
> >emerges as structure in the large.
>
> The essential nature of things can have many aspects.
sure.
> >human groups seem to operate in similar *ways*.
> >an individual may be kind and thoughtful,
> >but when part-of a group,
> >sometimes, the collective aggregation
> >of the tendency for fear to elicit
> >thoughtless cruel reactions in the name
> >of self-preservation results in an emergent
> >order of a mob.
>
> The world is as it is, what does that say about the essential nature
> of Tao?
certainly not humane or benevolent.
it might be said that all organisms
have within them the tendency for self-annihilation.
but within the self-annhilation, the tendency for life.
yin inside of yang.
yang inside of yin.
hence, the cycle is complete,
and all things return to nothingness.
then return again to 10k
one yin, one yang, this called dao.
-shazi
Keynes
What can be said?
It's said that 'mind' is an emergent property in
termites, ants, bees, wasps, and such. Individually
the insects have no mind, yet together they work and
build a successful economy. Termite mounds are
taller (relative to the height of the insect) than our
tallest buildings, and together, greater than our largest
cities . They have air conditioning and efficient access
to water and food, plus even waste disposal.
Ants were the first farmers (of fungi), the first herders
(of aphids), the first raiders (army ants), the first slavers
of their own species, and generally beat us to the punch
in every way. No ant knows what to do or what it is
doing, but together they get great things done.
Sometimes I wonder if our own species has some great
collective overmind unknown to us that might account
for our apparent irrationality (in that we think we know
the right things to do [like peace, prosperity, brotherhood]
but can't ever do them).
In any case there is a wonderful order to the organic world
and the inorganic that is far beyond our understanding.
It beats our hearts and does all our breathing while we
intellectualize on trivialities.
noname
Maybe.
>In any case there is a wonderful order to the organic world
>and the inorganic that is far beyond our understanding.
>It beats our hearts and does all our breathing while we
>intellectualize on trivialities.
Too simple for us.
{:-])))
>>>when you can't remember what you
>>>sig-line means it's time to change it.
>>
>>dew spelling counts
>
>Not unless some unnamed sumbitch oars you upside the head.
>
>when you can't remember what you
>sig-line means it's time to change it.
Eye has a name,
it is difficult to put into words howEver.
To picture it, imagine {:-])))
and think iconic.
The sentence(s) you'd written
made sense to me after the second read.
At first, the idea of throwing one's life
into the abyss didn't sound like a bad idea.
But in your context I saw what you meant.
I forget the second sentence.
Spellings at times put a spell on me.
Things may catch and stick like a stick.
Attracting at tent ions, they go charging.
-in the mud
^@%>---*=#
"noname" <n...@no.no> wrote in message
news:7i1324591o0bu0boi...@4ax.com...
spiritual transformation or brain
fart. what's the difference ?
^@%>---*=#
and what can be said about the
essential nature ?
Keynes
The difference? The idea that brains fart.
^@%>---*=#
"Keynes" <Key...@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
news:1lq32459jkroni2ln...@4ax.com...
you think spiritual transformation
doesn't fart ?
Keynes
They say that persons have brains that think.
And then these persons initiate actions based
on that thinking. That's common belief.
Where's the transformation in that?
^@%>---*=#
in the not listening to that they
Nick Argall
> This "emergence" stuff is too complex for me. I can never figure out
> who's on first.
Nothing is on first, nothing is on first. Everything emerges from the
place(s) it emerges from. We don't have to know where it came from to
know that if it wasn't here before and it is here now, it must have
come from somewhere. (Unless it came from nowhere.)
> Essence maybe I can come closer to understanding. Or
> maybe it's all over my head.
Essence is yin, and solid, easier to get a handle on. Emergence/shen
is yang, a flitting figment that we can't grasp securely. Being in
constant motion and having no substance, it cannot be pinned down,
unlike essence. It's a different kind of thing, it requires a
different kind of understanding.
Nick
Essentially a daoist
shazi
>Essence is yin, and solid, easier to get a handle on.
>Emergence/shen is yang, a flitting
>figment that we can't grasp securely. Being in
>constant motion and having no substance, it cannot be pinned down,
>unlike essence. It's a different kind of thing, it requires a
>different kind of understanding.
interesting.
Although jing/essence is equated in yin in tcm,
i've never seen shen equated with yang or emergence.
shen http://www.zhongwen.com/d/175/x171.htm
may equate to spirit or that which is spiritual,
but doesn't imply yang or emergence
perhaps you mean 'sheng' http://www.zhongwen.com/d/165/x205.htm
which implies life, birth, emergence.
and of course the creative is yang.
but i could be confused as i always am.
what is your source?
-shazi
noname
I don't need no stinking yin nor yang neither.
The color of stupid is smart.
That's a flavor of loud.
The soda is fizzy.
--
there, see that? a flying monkey!
noname
{:-])))
>shazi <shazi....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Nick Argall <nar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Essence is yin, and solid, easier to get a handle on.
>>
>>>Emergence/shen is yang, a flitting
>>>figment that we can't grasp securely. Being in
>>>constant motion and having no substance, it cannot be pinned down,
>>>unlike essence. It's a different kind of thing, it requires a
>>>different kind of understanding.
>>
>>interesting.
Eye thought sew two.
>>Although jing/essence is equated in yin in tcm,
>>i've never seen shen equated with yang or emergence.
I would think a flitting figment
that we can't grasp securely would be yin.
Being in constant motion and having no substance,
not able to be pinned down, I'd figure that yin
as well. Much softer than yang.
Cud be a mixed bag.
>>shen http://www.zhongwen.com/d/175/x171.htm
>>may equate to spirit or that which is spiritual,
>>but doesn't imply yang or emergence
Fun stuff, at any rate, shape, size.
>>perhaps you mean 'sheng' http://www.zhongwen.com/d/165/x205.htm
>>which implies life, birth, emergence.
>>and of course the creative is yang.
>>
>>but i could be confused as i always am.
>>what is your source?
I figured he was his own source.
>How many are there?
Probably only one Nick Argall.
-----
have a sig.
no thanks, I quit smoking
-----
shazi
noname
Sources, you ninny. How many sources are there?
{:-])))
There may be a great number.
Suppose there are more than one.
God may be one. Dao may be one.
They may not be the same one
even tho folks may assert they are.
Planet Earth may be an intersect-
ion of a great variety of sources.
-in a bamboo grove
Nick Argall
On Jun 3, 11:49 am, shazi <shazi.dao...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nick Argall <narg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Essence is yin, and solid, easier to get a handle on.
> >Emergence/shen is yang, a flitting
> >figment that we can't grasp securely. Being in
> >constant motion and having no substance, it cannot be pinned down,
> >unlike essence. It's a different kind of thing, it requires a
> >different kind of understanding.
>
> interesting.
>
> Although jing/essence is equated in yin in tcm,
> i've never seen shen equated with yang or emergence.
> shenhttp://www.zhongwen.com/d/175/x171.htm
> may equate to spirit or that which is spiritual,
> but doesn't imply yang or emergence
>
> perhaps you mean 'sheng'http://www.zhongwen.com/d/165/x205.htm
> which implies life, birth, emergence.
> and of course the creative is yang.
>
> but i could be confused as i always am.
> what is your source?
My source is classes I attended on yin/yang theory, and the definition
of 'yin' as opposed to the definition of 'yang'.
Yin / Yang
Invisible / Visible
Solid / Ephemeral
Enduring / Temporary
Silent / Loud
Dark / Bright
Gentle / Forceful
Below / Above
Compressed / Dispersed
So, when we consider 'shen' in comparison with 'jing', we see that
'shen' is dispersed among all things, whereas 'jing' is concentrated
within things. You can see the strength of someone's shen from the
glow of healthy skin and their bright eyes, you can feel the strength
of someone's jing from the strength of their bones and their muscle.
This is why I say that of the 3 basic things that combine to make the
universe (shen, qi and jing) that shen is yang, relative to jing that
is yin.
Nick
shazi
very consistent with my readings as well.
yet, all things don't nicely break down
into yin and yang; as there is yin within yang
and yang within yin.
emergence can be an 'out there' concept,
but the tendency for emergence is not
ephemeral, but rather always happening.
yin emerges from yang, and vice versa.
therefore 'emergence' per se, is not yang.
fwiw. how have you been?
-shazi
Nick Argall
Of course! This is the essence of yin-yang theory!
> emergence can be an 'out there' concept,
> but the tendency for emergence is not
> ephemeral, but rather always happening.
> yin emerges from yang, and vice versa.
> therefore 'emergence' per se, is not yang.
Well, yes. But 'shen' is not 'emergence', well, maybe it's not.
Hmmm. 'shen' is the perceiver, the highest, the thing that is shared
everywhere. Maybe it is emergence. Oh well.
> fwiw. how have you been?
More up than down. Worked myself a bit too hard and came to a halt
rather ungracefully, I continue to be a bit yin deficient. Bit yang
deficient, too. Generally depleted. But not getting stuck the way
that I used to, which is good. Work is going well, my superiors have
a delightful tendency to follow my advice. And my personal
relationships are in good shape. All I need to do now is care for
'me', which I'm continuing to get better at.
How are you?
Nick
shazi
>> emergence can be an 'out there' concept,
>> but the tendency for emergence is not
>> ephemeral, but rather always happening.
>> yin emerges from yang, and vice versa.
>> therefore 'emergence' per se, is not yang.
>
>Well, yes. But 'shen' is not 'emergence', well, maybe it's not.
>Hmmm. 'shen' is the perceiver, the highest, the thing that is shared
>everywhere. Maybe it is emergence. Oh well.
to me, shen is that which unifies the 10k.
it is definitely outgoing, and what you say,
shared everywhere...the perceiver.
'emergence' is another thing.
order that results when things
do what they do naturally.
structure amidst the crowd.
perhaps shen, the affinity of things
to unify or relate in someways through
perception or attraction, may result
in emergence.
but neither shen, nor dao, is 'emergent',
but rather, the cause of emergence, perhaps,
where the resultant order or structure belies
the underlying way things work and relate together.
musing the unknowable, of course...
>> fwiw. how have you been?
>
>More up than down. Worked myself a bit too hard and came to a halt
>rather ungracefully, I continue to be a bit yin deficient. Bit yang
>deficient, too. Generally depleted.
...of qi? isn't a deficiency of yin
generally in relation to 'too much yang'?
>But not getting stuck the way
>that I used to, which is good.
i got myself stuck on something recently,
and it isn't pretty.
>Work is going well, my superiors have
>a delightful tendency to follow my advice.
always good.
>And my personal
>relationships are in good shape. All I need to do now is care for
>'me', which I'm continuing to get better at.
>How are you?
not sure, haven't stopped to take notice.
fine, now that you ask.
cheers!
-shazi
noname
>Nick Argall <nar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>More up than down. Worked myself a bit too hard and came to a halt
>>rather ungracefully, I continue to be a bit yin deficient. Bit yang
>>deficient, too. Generally depleted.
>
>...of qi? isn't a deficiency of yin
>generally in relation to 'too much yang'?
>
>>But not getting stuck the way
>>that I used to, which is good.
>
>i got myself stuck on something recently,
>and it isn't pretty.
When dogs get stuck a bucket of cold water usually unsticks them.
When people get stuck a bucket of cold events may be forthcoming.
>>Work is going well, my superiors have
>>a delightful tendency to follow my advice.
>
>always good.
As good as a gift-horse?
Nick Argall
Yeah, I find that I can't add to that usefully. Trying to pin these
things down too much can be fruitless and frustrating.
> >> fwiw. how have you been?
>
> >More up than down. Worked myself a bit too hard and came to a halt
> >rather ungracefully, I continue to be a bit yin deficient. Bit yang
> >deficient, too. Generally depleted.
>
> ...of qi? isn't a deficiency of yin
> generally in relation to 'too much yang'?
Logically, yes. But in practice, it is possible to be deficient in
both. If you can't get up in the morning, that can be due to a
deficiency of the 'rising' energy, yang. If you can't go to bed at
night, that can be due to a deficiency of the 'settling' energy, yin.
Both at once can be due to a deficiency of both energies. (There are
other possible reasons. This post is not medical advice.)
> >How are you?
>
> not sure, haven't stopped to take notice.
> fine, now that you ask.
Excellent!
Nick
shazi
>> perhaps shen, the affinity of things
>> to unify or relate in someways through
>> perception or attraction, may result
>> in emergence.
>>
>> but neither shen, nor dao, is 'emergent',
>> but rather, the cause of emergence, perhaps,
>> where the resultant order or structure belies
>> the underlying way things work and relate together.
>>
>> musing the unknowable, of course...
>
>Yeah, I find that I can't add to that usefully.
>Trying to pin these things down too much can be
>fruitless and frustrating.
ah, but if i have no expectations of
ever coming to an answer, i never get
frustrated, and the fruit of the discussion
is the raised awareness of dao, etc.
>
>> >> fwiw. how have you been?
>>
>> >More up than down. Worked myself a bit too hard and came to a halt
>> >rather ungracefully, I continue to be a bit yin deficient. Bit yang
>> >deficient, too. Generally depleted.
>>
>> ...of qi? isn't a deficiency of yin
>> generally in relation to 'too much yang'?
>
>Logically, yes. But in practice, it is possible to be deficient in
>both. If you can't get up in the morning, that can be due to a
>deficiency of the 'rising' energy, yang. If you can't go to bed at
>night, that can be due to a deficiency of the 'settling' energy, yin.
>Both at once can be due to a deficiency of both energies.
i'll have the think on that.
or not.
seems like qi accumulates when yin and yang
are in harmony. when yin and yang are
not in harmony, qi dissipates.
wenzi says that 'real people',
in harmony with dao, sleep without
dreaming. in effect, they sleep like a rock,
undisturbed by energy-stealing stress.
if one lacks harmony, one might be distressed
and fails to engage with yin to sleep.
then lacking sleep, there's no energy to arise.
hence, the seeming deficiency of both yin and yang
may well be the lack of harmony of yin and yang,
even when, or especially, when such are in too
extreme of a state.
just more musings...
>(There are other possible reasons.
>This post is not medical advice.)
and of course - not to be construed as anything at all...
cheers.
-shazi
{:-])))
>Nick Argall <nar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> perhaps shen, the affinity of things
>>> to unify or relate in someways through
>>> perception or attraction, may result
>>> in emergence.
Tis only natural.
>>> but neither shen, nor dao, is 'emergent',
>>> but rather, the cause of emergence, perhaps,
>>> where the resultant order or structure belies
>>> the underlying way things work and relate together.
>>>
>>> musing the unknowable, of course...
>>
>>Yeah, I find that I can't add to that usefully.
>>Trying to pin these things down too much can be
>>fruitless and frustrating.
Akin to searching for the core
of an onion or some other such
non-fruit thing with layers.
>ah, but if i have no expectations of
>ever coming to an answer, i never get
>frustrated, and the fruit of the discussion
>is the raised awareness of dao, etc.
A fruitless tree may yet gather moss.
-as a jam session gels
Nick Argall
Yes.
However, to say 'the seeming deficiency of both' is to deny the unity
of the root and the manifestation. The cause and the effect are not
separate, effects create causes for themselves while causes create
effects. To be deficient in yin and yang is to have a disharmony that
causes a deficiency of yin and yang. It is when we seek to understand
that disharmony that two concepts are no longer enough, so we carve
more.
Nick
noname
It seems to simplify things if you recognize that the entire
manifestation has a yang bias.
Nick Argall
Since yang is characterised by 'manifest' and yin by 'potential',
that's an accurate thing to say. I don't understand how that
particular truth is useful, though.
Nick
noname
What is balance within a yang-biased environment?
It is not the same as balance in a neutral environment.
When you exist in a yang-biased environment, is it better to be
balanced within that environment and thus yang-biased in a greater
view, or balanced in the greater view and thus yin-biased in the
manifestation?
Why does the TTC say know the strength of a man (yang) but keep a
woman's care (yin)? What does it really mean to hold fast to the
center?
Which center, the center within the yang-biased manifestation or
within the greater scheme of things? What exactly is their
difference?
> I don't understand how that particular truth is useful, though.
I don't understand how it can be useless.
Nick Argall
noname wrote:
> Nick Argall <nar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Jul 21, 2:09 pm, noname <n...@no.no> wrote:
> >> Nick Argall <narg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >However, to say 'the seeming deficiency of both' is to deny the unity
> >> >of the root and the manifestation. The cause and the effect are not
> >> >separate, effects create causes for themselves while causes create
> >> >effects. To be deficient in yin and yang is to have a disharmony that
> >> >causes a deficiency of yin and yang. It is when we seek to understand
> >> >that disharmony that two concepts are no longer enough, so we carve
> >> >more.
> >>
> >> It seems to simplify things if you recognize that the entire
> >> manifestation has a yang bias.
> >
> >Since yang is characterised by 'manifest' and yin by 'potential',
> >that's an accurate thing to say.
>
> What is balance within a yang-biased environment?
>
> It is not the same as balance in a neutral environment.
How so?
> When you exist in a yang-biased environment, is it better to be
> balanced within that environment and thus yang-biased in a greater
> view, or balanced in the greater view and thus yin-biased in the
> manifestation?
If you accept (yin) the yang of the environment and feed it back in,
is that yin in the greater view, or not?
Is it better to cross the road, or stay where you are?
Depends on the specifics of the situation.
> Why does the TTC say know the strength of a man (yang) but keep a
> woman's care (yin)?
Because there are situations where one is much more likely to give you
what you want than the other.
> What does it really mean to hold fast to the
> center?
>
> Which center, the center within the yang-biased manifestation or
> within the greater scheme of things? What exactly is their
> difference?
Better not to try to pin down something like that.
Hold fast to the center - know that there is an option that is
opposite to the one you are taking. Retain your ability to change
direction. Maintain a calm awareness of your actions, even when your
actions are not peaceful.
> > I don't understand how that particular truth is useful, though.
>
> I don't understand how it can be useless.
So it seems!
Please allow me to rephrase:
Why did you point out that particular truth in this particular
situation?
Nick
{:-])))
>noname asked, possibly rhetorically:
>> Why does the TTC say know the strength of a man (yang) but keep a
>> woman's care (yin)?
>
>Because there are situations where one is much more likely to give you
>what you want than the other.
My take has been
that yang leads to the falls, and going over.
Holding back a bit, keeping to the yin
helps me to not take an unwanted plunge.
noname
>noname wrote:
>
>> Nick Argall <nar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Jul 21, 2:09 pm, noname <n...@no.no> wrote:
>> >> Nick Argall <narg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> >However, to say 'the seeming deficiency of both' is to deny the unity
>> >> >of the root and the manifestation. The cause and the effect are not
>> >> >separate, effects create causes for themselves while causes create
>> >> >effects. To be deficient in yin and yang is to have a disharmony that
>> >> >causes a deficiency of yin and yang. It is when we seek to understand
>> >> >that disharmony that two concepts are no longer enough, so we carve
>> >> >more.
>> >>
>> >> It seems to simplify things if you recognize that the entire
>> >> manifestation has a yang bias.
>> >
>> >Since yang is characterised by 'manifest' and yin by 'potential',
>> >that's an accurate thing to say.
>>
>> What is balance within a yang-biased environment?
>>
>> It is not the same as balance in a neutral environment.
>
>How so?
A yang-biased environment requires a yin bias to offset the yang bias
of the environment and achieve relative balance within the
environment. The interesting question is, when that is done what
happens to one's balance on the outer level where there is no yang
bias.
>> Why does the TTC say know the strength of a man (yang) but keep a
>> woman's care (yin)?
>
>Because there are situations where one is much more likely to give you
>what you want than the other.
So you're saying the TTC is about getting what you want?