Zen
LaoTzu
that zen is nothing but taoist meditation in practice, but that's just
my humble opinion. Any comments?
Moonshadao
Do a google search on past discussions.
alt.zen is another newsgroup. Zen is
born from Taoism and Buddhism.
Taoist philosophy is not zen.
Keynes
Taoist philosophy is instructive. Zen is practical.
Taoism suggests. Zen shuns theory and goes
for the experience that the taoism descibes.
Ch'an (zen) means 'meditation' and includes it,
but there's more to it than just sitting. The most
baffling method used is the koan, a paradoxical
story of conversation that makes incomprehensible
points. Rational answers are no use.
The mind road is cut off.
Zen is ultimately challenging since it attempts
to completely transform one, top to bottom.
It's not for the merely curious or faint hearted.
daywalker
"Keynes" <Key...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:vrvlvv42lm5m26sl5...@4ax.com...
zisixi
> What are the main differences between zen and pure taoism? I'm feeling
> that zen is nothing but taoist meditation in practice, but that's just
> my humble opinion. Any comments?
While some Taoists practice Zen meditation,
and some Zen Buddhists do Tai Ji Chuan,
there are "Taoist" meditation practices.
I'm currently listening to Ken Cohen's
"Taoism: Essential Teachings of the Way and Its Power"
wherein he describes several different types of Taoist meditation practices.
I've also purchased (but not yet read) B. K. Frantzis's
"Relaxing Into Your Being: Breathing, Chi & Dissolving the Ego,
The Water Method of Taoist Meditation - Volume 1",
which is all about a form of Taoist Meditation.
I'll give a review when I'm done reading it, but first I'm reading
Eva Wong's "Taoism: A complete introduction to the history, philosophy,
and practice of an ancient Chinese spiritual tradition", which
also has some information on Taoist meditation.
From what I gather, Taoist meditation owes a bit to
Yoga practices from a historical perspective. There is also
quite a bit that may be traced back to early Shamanic practice.
Another bit that might be discussed is how tightly Taoist Meditation
is tied to the religious Taoist traditions (taojiao), vs. the philosophical
tradition (taojia), if you're going to bother with that distinction.
small tortoiseshell
cortious snip,
>
> From what I gather, Taoist meditation owes a bit to
> Yoga practices from a historical perspective.
this is what i wonder about... breathing ... and the cultivation of
it, that is so primary, that i cannot imagine it not to have emerged
at a very early stage in china, as well as in India,
There is also
> quite a bit that may be traced back to early Shamanic practice.
how long ago is that?
>
Moonshadao
About 10,000 years, but in china about 5000 years ago.
Yin and yang theory and Wu Hsing(5 element theory)
are at least that old.
Moonshadao
Also some meditation practices and qi-gong(Chi-kung)
practices relate back to shamantic use of mushrooms and
other 'psychedelics'. That stuff goes back even futher than
10,000 years.
bookburn
"zisixi" <zis...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MlSKb.766230$Tr4.2202981@attbi_s03...
My appreciation of Taoism essentials comes from T'ai Chi standing
meditation practice. The manual I consciously follow describes
10 principals for developing the T'ai Chi body, and I find each
extrememly engrossing. These are: 1) posture, 2)
relaxation/sung, 3) harmony of mind-body, 4)
differentiation/yin-yang, 5) centering/tan tien & ming tang, 6)
circularity/5 bows, 7) continuity/extension & flow of chi, 8)
slowness, 9) softness, and 10) sinking. After five years, I
still dwell on the 2nd step, relaxation.
Many indications in Taoist scriptures suggest need for meditation
about the big picture and one's place in it, not just
manipulating chi. Like, going from child/unshaped block to what?
How to keep Taoist cosmology purely philosophical yet personally
meaningful seems to be the trick.
bookburn
daywalker
"Moonshadao" <Moons...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3FFC1E...@aol.com...
what i get from the texts is that
any meditation that is premeditated
is contrived and unnatural.
Moonshadao
Tao-chiao is contrived and unnatural.
Most 'taoist' practices that involve
alchemy and manipulation by a practitioner
are contrived and unnatural.
That is why Tao-chia and Tao-chiao are
separated from each other. The philosophy
says to live life naturally and accept misfortune,
and death as natural. Taoist religion says that
life can be prolonged and enhanced. In this way
they are actually opposites.
daywalker
i see
i don't think i am interested in the religious Tao
just the translations - the tzu's
{8-])))
>what i get from the texts is that
>any meditation that is premeditated
>is contrived and unnatural.
even tso-wang and hsin-chai?
small tortoiseshell
> Moonshadao wrote:
> >
> > small tortoiseshell wrote:
> > >
> > > "zisixi"
> > >
> > > cortious snip,
> > >
> > > >
> > > > From what I gather, Taoist meditation owes a bit to
> > > > Yoga practices from a historical perspective.
> > >
> > > this is what i wonder about... breathing ... and the cultivation of
> > > it, that is so primary, that i cannot imagine it not to have emerged
> > > at a very early stage in china, as well as in India,
> > >
> > > There is also
> > > > quite a bit that may be traced back to early Shamanic practice.
> > >
> > > how long ago is that?
> > >
> > > >
> >
> > About 10,000 years, but in china about 5000 years ago.
> > Yin and yang theory and Wu Hsing(5 element theory)
> > are at least that old.
what chinese breathing practice has changed less since then, do you know ?
also, what chinese martial art are most pre-occypied with breathing as base?
zisixi
> > daywalker
-snip-
> > what i get from the texts is that
> > any meditation that is premeditated
> > is contrived and unnatural.
> Tao-chiao is contrived and unnatural.
> Most 'taoist' practices that involve
> alchemy and manipulation by a practitioner
> are contrived and unnatural.
> That is why Tao-chia and Tao-chiao are
> separated from each other. The philosophy
> says to live life naturally and accept misfortune,
> and death as natural. Taoist religion says that
> life can be prolonged and enhanced. In this way
> they are actually opposites.
Hadn't thought of it that way about meditation,
but I can see what you mean.
I have been thinking about this
as it concerns Taoist poetry.
It turns out
that there are
a number of "rules".
I wonder though, how the concepts of
"contrived and unnatural"
relate to wu wei.
I also wonder about
the definition of
contrived
or
unnatural.
From my perspective
matter
coming together
to form a star
could be
a contrivance
of gravity.
zisixi
> >dw
> even tso-wang and hsin-chai?
doesn't everyone daydream?
Moonshadao
>
> Moonshadao <Moons...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<3FFC1E...@aol.com>...
> > Moonshadao wrote:
> > >
> > > small tortoiseshell wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "zisixi"
> > > >
> > > > cortious snip,
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From what I gather, Taoist meditation owes a bit to
> > > > > Yoga practices from a historical perspective.
> > > >
> > > > this is what i wonder about... breathing ... and the cultivation of
> > > > it, that is so primary, that i cannot imagine it not to have emerged
> > > > at a very early stage in china, as well as in India,
> > > >
> > > > There is also
> > > > > quite a bit that may be traced back to early Shamanic practice.
> > > >
> > > > how long ago is that?
> > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > About 10,000 years, but in china about 5000 years ago.
> > > Yin and yang theory and Wu Hsing(5 element theory)
> > > are at least that old.
>
> what chinese breathing practice has changed less since then, do you know ?
No. I would guess you are refering to qi-gong(chi-kung)
Breathing is the foundation of all Chi-kung. It is
probably as old as the idea of yin/yang.
Breathing is Yin and Yang.
> also, what chinese martial art are most pre-occypied with breathing as base?
>
Tai-chi-chaun is the one that it is most important.
Breathing is important though in all forms of Chinese martial arts
Yunlong/Ichen would be a better person to ask though.
He knows more about it than I do.
small tortoiseshell
> small tortoiseshell wrote:
> >
> > Moonshadao <Moons...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<3FFC1E...@aol.com>...
> > > Moonshadao wrote:
> > > >
> > > > small tortoiseshell wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "zisixi"
> > > > >
> > > > > cortious snip,
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From what I gather, Taoist meditation owes a bit to
> > > > > > Yoga practices from a historical perspective.
> > > > >
> > > > > this is what i wonder about... breathing ... and the cultivation of
> > > > > it, that is so primary, that i cannot imagine it not to have emerged
> > > > > at a very early stage in china, as well as in India,
> > > > >
> > > > > There is also
> > > > > > quite a bit that may be traced back to early Shamanic practice.
> > > > >
> > > > > how long ago is that?
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > About 10,000 years, but in china about 5000 years ago.
> > > > Yin and yang theory and Wu Hsing(5 element theory)
> > > > are at least that old.
> >
> > what chinese breathing practice has changed less since then, do you know ?
>
> No. I would guess you are refering to qi-gong(chi-kung)
> Breathing is the foundation of all Chi-kung. It is
> probably as old as the idea of yin/yang.
> Breathing is Yin and Yang.
yes,
>
> > also, what chinese martial art are most pre-occypied with breathing as base?
> >
>
> Tai-chi-chaun is the one that it is most important.
> Breathing is important though in all forms of Chinese martial arts
>
> Yunlong/Ichen would be a better person to ask though.
> He knows more about it than I do.
this is just fine, gives me something to google on ...
thanks,
{8-])))
The sage does not dream, iirc.
At least, his sleep is dreamless.
Zz said that it's all a dream.
Well, ribbit, mebbe.
daywalker
"{8-])))" <me@home> wrote in message
news:n5hrvvom0qvi7egdv...@4ax.com...
it seems strange that someone
wouldn't dream at all.
i don't understand this.
kitznegari thinks it has wings
>At least, his sleep is dreamless.
>Zz said that it's all a dream.
>Well, ribbit, mebbe.
ribbit? is there a frog in your throat, love?
- k i t z -
i will take you to the oracle, but first i must aporogize.
http://spinning_plates.tripod.com
zisixi
> >z6i
>> {8-])))
>> >>dw
>> > even tso-wang and hsin-chai?
> >doesn't everyone daydream?
My impression
from both ZhuangZi's butterfly story,
as well as the Cohen stuff I just finished listening to
(Taoism: Essential Teachings of the Way and Its Power
by Sounds True Audio presentations)
is that dreaming can be a very important
type of meditation.
{8-])))
You don't recall having dreamless sleep?
Sometimes things are not always literal.
"The saying goes, that the sage's life is the
outworking of Heaven and his death is the
transformation of everything. When he is still,
his Virtue is like yin; when he is moving, his
pervasiveness is like yang. He brings neither good
fortune nor bad. He acts and moves in response to
forces beyond. When he finds something, he rises
up. He ignores knowledge and nostalgia, following
only the pattern of Heaven. So he risks no
disaster from Heaven, nor complications from
things, no accusation from anyone, no charges from
the spirits of the dead. In life he floats; at
death he rests. He does not consider and plot, nor
design for the future. He shines but is not seen;
his good faith has no record; his sleep is
dreamless and he wakes without fear. His spirit is
pure and without blemish; his soul never tires.
Empty, selfless, calm and detached, he is in
harmony with Heaven's Virtue. "
http://www.panlatrevo.com/texts/chuangtzu/index.php?chapter=15
{8-])))
>jay wrote:
>>The sage does not dream, iirc.
>>At least, his sleep is dreamless.
>>Zz said that it's all a dream.
>>Well, ribbit, mebbe.
>
>ribbit? is there a frog in your throat, love?
The Well Frog and the Great Turtle
Haven’t you ever heard about the frog in the
caved-in well? He said to the great turtle of the
Eastern Sea, “What fun I have! I come out and hop
around the railing of the well, or I go back in
and take a rest in the wall where a tile has
fallen out. When I dive into the water, I let it
hold me up under the armpits and support my chin,
and when I slip about in the mud, I bury my feet
in it and let it come up over my ankles. I look
around at the mosquito larvae and the crabs and
the polliwogs and I see that none of them can
match me. To have complete command of the water
of one whole valley, and to monopolize all the
joys of a caved-in well – this is the best there
is! Why don’t you come sometime and see for
yourself?”
But before the great turtle of the Eastern Sea
had even gotten his left foot in the well his
right knee was already wedged fast. He backed out
and withdrew a little, and then began to describe
the sea. “A distance of a thousand miles cannot
indicate its greatness; a depth of a thousand
fathoms cannot express how deep it is. In the
time of Yu there were floods for nine years out of
ten, and yet its waters never rose. In the time
of T’ang there were droughts for seven years out
of eight, and yet its shores never receded. Never
to alter or shift, whether for an instant or an
eternity; never to advance or recede, whether the
quantity of water flowing is great or small – this
is the great delight of the Eastern Sea!” When
the frog in the caved-in well heard this, he
dumbfounded with surprise, crestfallen, and
completely at a loss.
~~ Chuang Tzu, Autumn Floods
Translated by B. Watson
{8-])))
In the CT are m'any stories.
One chapter points to Zz dreaming.
Another chapter points to dreamlessness.
Points are made to communicate sum ting.
When teh ox f'alls, a-p'art, One awakens.
kitznegari thinks it has wings
<snip story of frog and turtle>
i need to think about this...
daywalker
"{8-])))" <me@home> wrote in message
> On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:50:42 -0500, "daywalker"
> <o...@o.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"{8-])))" <me@home> wrote in message
> >news:n5hrvvom0qvi7egdv...@4ax.com...
> >> >z6i
> >> >> {8-])))
> >> >> >dw
> >> >
> >> >> >what i get from the texts is that
> >> >> >any meditation that is premeditated
> >> >> >is contrived and unnatural.
> >> >
> >> >> even tso-wang and hsin-chai?
> >> >
> >> >doesn't everyone daydream?
> >>
> >> The sage does not dream, iirc.
> >> At least, his sleep is dreamless.
> >> Zz said that it's all a dream.
> >> Well, ribbit, mebbe.
> >
> >it seems strange that someone
> >wouldn't dream at all.
> >i don't understand this.
>
> You don't recall having dreamless sleep?
> Sometimes things are not always literal.
i recall not remembering my dreams
i am pretty sure i dream every nite
>
> "The saying goes, that the sage's life is the
> outworking of Heaven and his death is the
> transformation of everything. When he is still,
> his Virtue is like yin; when he is moving, his
> pervasiveness is like yang. He brings neither good
> fortune nor bad. He acts and moves in response to
> forces beyond. When he finds something, he rises
> up. He ignores knowledge and nostalgia, following
> only the pattern of Heaven. So he risks no
> disaster from Heaven, nor complications from
> things, no accusation from anyone, no charges from
> the spirits of the dead. In life he floats; at
> death he rests. He does not consider and plot, nor
> design for the future. He shines but is not seen;
> his good faith has no record; his sleep is
> dreamless and he wakes without fear. His spirit is
> pure and without blemish; his soul never tires.
> Empty, selfless, calm and detached, he is in
> harmony with Heaven's Virtue. "
> http://www.panlatrevo.com/texts/chuangtzu/index.php?chapter=15
>
waht has this to do with dreamless sleep?
LaoTzu
you remember and actively live the dream the more you're in contact
with yourself. This also works for me. And the more you're nervous the
more you don't remember them. I can of course be wrong.
small tortoiseshell
> "{8-])))" <me@home> wrote in message
> news:400tvv4a05ekj0t4j...@4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 17:50:42 -0500, "daywalker"
> > <o...@o.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"{8-])))" <me@home> wrote in message
> > >news:n5hrvvom0qvi7egdv...@4ax.com...
> > >> >z6i
> > >> >> {8-])))
> > >> >> >dw
>
> > >> >> >what i get from the texts is that
> > >> >> >any meditation that is premeditated
> > >> >> >is contrived and unnatural.
>
> > >> >> even tso-wang and hsin-chai?
> > >> >
> > >> >doesn't everyone daydream?
what has daydreaming to do with meditation?
> > >>
> > >> The sage does not dream, iirc.
> > >> At least, his sleep is dreamless.
> > >> Zz said that it's all a dream.
> > >> Well, ribbit, mebbe.
> > >
> > >it seems strange that someone
> > >wouldn't dream at all.
> > >i don't understand this.
no wonder ... have you ever 'stopped' hyperventilating for one minute?
> >
> > You don't recall having dreamless sleep?
> > Sometimes things are not always literal.
>
> i recall not remembering my dreams
> i am pretty sure i dream every nite
how, if you do not recall?
>
> >
> > "The saying goes, that the sage's life is the
> > outworking of Heaven and his death is the
> > transformation of everything. When he is still,
> > his Virtue is like yin; when he is moving, his
> > pervasiveness is like yang. He brings neither good
> > fortune nor bad. He acts and moves in response to
> > forces beyond. When he finds something, he rises
> > up. He ignores knowledge and nostalgia, following
> > only the pattern of Heaven. So he risks no
> > disaster from Heaven, nor complications from
> > things, no accusation from anyone, no charges from
> > the spirits of the dead. In life he floats; at
> > death he rests. He does not consider and plot, nor
> > design for the future. He shines but is not seen;
> > his good faith has no record; his sleep is
> > dreamless and he wakes without fear. His spirit is
> > pure and without blemish; his soul never tires.
> > Empty, selfless, calm and detached, he is in
> > harmony with Heaven's Virtue. "
> > http://www.panlatrevo.com/texts/chuangtzu/index.php?chapter=15
> >
>
> waht has this to do with dreamless sleep?
everything, he is finished, and you are not, thats why you dont get
it, lol ... nothing sticks to him and he sticks to nothing, what can
possibly be 'processed' by a 'subconciusness' then? , he doesnt HAVE a
subconciousness, all is clear, finished, poff, gone, etc.etc. ,,
should be pretty simple. you quote a couple of miles of letters each
day, and is as fast asleep as anyone i have heard ... lol ...
{8-])))
>jay wrote:
>>day wrote:
>> >"{8-])))
>> >> >z6i
>> >> >> {8-])))
>> >> >> >dw
>> >> >
>> >> >> >what i get from the texts is that
>> >> >> >any meditation that is premeditated
>> >> >> >is contrived and unnatural.
>> >> >
>> >> >> even tso-wang and hsin-chai?
>> >> >
>> >> >doesn't everyone daydream?
>> >>
>> >> The sage does not dream, iirc.
>> >> At least, his sleep is dreamless.
>> >> Zz said that it's all a dream.
>> >> Well, ribbit, mebbe.
>> >
>> >it seems strange that someone
>> >wouldn't dream at all.
>> >i don't understand this.
>>
>> You don't recall having dreamless sleep?
>> Sometimes things are not always literal.
>
>i recall not remembering my dreams
>i am pretty sure i dream every nite
Suppose that dreaming is symbolic
for a kind of restlessness while asleep.
Could it be that to say the sage sleeps
without dreaming suggests such a thing?
>> "The saying goes, that the sage's life is the
>> outworking of Heaven and his death is the
>> transformation of everything. When he is still,
>> his Virtue is like yin; when he is moving, his
>> pervasiveness is like yang. He brings neither good
>> fortune nor bad. He acts and moves in response to
>> forces beyond. When he finds something, he rises
>> up. He ignores knowledge and nostalgia, following
>> only the pattern of Heaven. So he risks no
>> disaster from Heaven, nor complications from
>> things, no accusation from anyone, no charges from
>> the spirits of the dead. In life he floats; at
>> death he rests. He does not consider and plot, nor
>> design for the future. He shines but is not seen;
>> his good faith has no record; his sleep is
>> dreamless and he wakes without fear. His spirit is
>> pure and without blemish; his soul never tires.
>> Empty, selfless, calm and detached, he is in
>> harmony with Heaven's Virtue. "
>> http://www.panlatrevo.com/texts/chuangtzu/index.php?chapter=15
>>
>
>waht has this to do with dreamless sleep?
It says, "... his sleep is
>> dreamless and he wakes without fear. "
What it has to do with is that the sage sleeps
without dreaming. Iirc he also breathes
thru the bottom of his feet. -fwiw
But what about tso-wang and hsin chai?
Are they not forms of Tao Chia meditation?
daywalker
"small tortoiseshell" <_cl...@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:8aae3013.04010...@posting.google.com...
there there
do you feel better now?
small tortoiseshell
definitely, i know that you have no clue what all this sage-business
is about now, it helps :)
zisixi
>> daywalker
>>> {8-])))
>>>> daywalker
>>>>> {8-])))
>>>>>> z6i
>>>>>>> {8-])))
>>>>>>>> dw
>>>>>>>> what i get from the texts is that
>>>>>>>> any meditation that is premeditated
>>>>>>>> is contrived and unnatural.
>>>>>>> even tso-wang and hsin-chai?
>>>>>> doesn't everyone daydream?
> what has daydreaming to do with meditation?
I was positing
that some might consider
some types of daydreaming
as meditation.
and perhaps it is.
I'd not really thought of it
until I typed it.
now that I think of it,
I can see
how it might be
-snip-
zisixi
>> zisixi
>>>>> even tso-wang and hsin-chai?
>>>> doesn't everyone daydream?
yup
For me personally,
dreaming is an important part
of my practice.
It is often through dreams
that the reality of a situation
becomes apparent to me.
small tortoiseshell
> When teh ox f'alls, a-p'art, One awakens.
thanks,
Anuruddha uttered :
He had no in-&-out breathing,
the one who was Such, the firm-minded one,
imperturbable
& bent on peace:
the sage completing his span.
With heart unbowed
he endured the pain.
Like a flame's unbinding
was the liberation
of awareness.
{8-])))
... ...
>>>>>>>> {8-])))
>>>>>>>>> dw
>
>>>>>>>>> what i get from the texts is that
>>>>>>>>> any meditation that is premeditated
>>>>>>>>> is contrived and unnatural.
>
>>>>>>>> even tso-wang and hsin-chai?
Carving an ox has been said to be
an act of volition. Did Cook Ting really
love Tao best?
>>>>>>> doesn't everyone daydream?
>
>> what has daydreaming to do with meditation?
>
>I was positing
>that some might consider
>some types of daydreaming
>as meditation.
>and perhaps it is.
>I'd not really thought of it
>until I typed it.
>now that I think of it,
>I can see
>how it might be
Tso-wang might involve
allowing thoughts to float as water
vapour droplets f'all, trickles turn
to streams returning in too
a n'ocean.
Bughuggger
>> that zen is nothing but taoist meditation in practice, but that's just
>> my humble opinion. Any comments?
Zen the flairist, but some practicality in their gardens and rituals. Taoist
the practicalist but some flair in their martial arts.
DW
Craig
"Bughuggger" <bughu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040121000235...@mb-m03.aol.com...
Eh?
Does the mechanic take the car for a test drive?
Bughuggger
Don't get what you mean. I'm too practical.
DW
Craig
I'd think that Taoist could be into Zen or marital arts or farming
or dabble in this and that arts and crafts or practice some discipline.
Even a Taoist would not have time to do everything
Maybe I should have asked if Taoist is like a mechanic.
Was a silly thought of something or other being like a test drive.
Poor metaphor on my part anyway.