Faq on Tao of Physics
dw...@hotmail.com
In article <347E06...@livingston.net>,
>
> On Wed 11/26/97 13:43 -0600 pn...@jps.net wrote:
> >
> > amorfati wrote:
> > check out a pseudo-faq related to Tao of Physicss and
> > Dancing WuLi Masters
> > >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1756/
> >
> > checked it out, amusing and interesting but not too meaty, thought
> > you might like to include a reference to an earlier book in the same
> > theme
> >
> > "The Tao of Science" by RGH Siu, MIT Press, 1957
> > 'an essay on Western knowledge and Eastern wisdom'
> >
> An interesting reference. I was not previously aware of it.
Just saw 6th episode of 'Stephen Hawking's Universe' where
he talks about the Big Bang as having 'No beginning and
No End', if that aint a direct parallel to the Heart Sutra
'all dharmas are forms of emptiness, not born, not destroyed',
then I'll eat my mala beads. Stuff that one in yer faq!
faq tip: put some stuff about how knee-jerk some great
scientists can be when discussing such ideas, eg Jeremy Bernstein,
Leon Lederman, and Carl Sagan. Materialism aint dead yet!
(but if it's really a FAQ how come I never see anyone ever ask about
the 'Tao of Physics' then, huh? Has it become the 'conventional
wisdom' already? or is it just yesterday's news, ho-hum?)
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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"The Liberator"
Amorfati:
Are there are many people who are interested in TTOP?
I am
--
The Liber8r
The Liber8r can be reached by e-mail, voicemail and web site respectively:
lib...@mcs.com
1-708-222-3050 x4021
http://www.mcs.net/~liber8r
dw...@hotmail.com wrote in article <8811953...@dejanews.com>...
: In article <347E06...@livingston.net>,
:
john baez
In article <01bd010f$12d30b40$052a...@liber8r.mcs.net>,
\"The Liberator\" <lib...@mcs.com> wrote:
>Are there are many people who are interested in TTOP?
I'm interested in how it distorts the actual facts about physics
and eastern religions to make them seem more similar than they
are, and also how it treats very different eastern religions
(various forms of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism) as a single
undifferentiated mass from which one can randomly draw quotes -
a practice no serious scholar would ever indulge in.
Certainly there is a lot of truth to Taoism and to physics, and
to the extent that they're true, they are not in contradiction,
but rather in harmony.
However, Capra's way of going after this business is unfortunately
rather superficial.
Nate Engle
[sci.physics axed from the Newsgroups line]
john baez wrote:
> \"The Liberator\" <lib...@mcs.com> wrote:
> >Are there are many people who are interested in TTOP?
> I'm interested in how it distorts the actual facts about physics
> and eastern religions to make them seem more similar than they
> are, and also how it treats very different eastern religions
> (various forms of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism) as a single
> undifferentiated mass from which one can randomly draw quotes -
> a practice no serious scholar would ever indulge in.
Hmmm, I confess I've never read TTOP. I read "The
Dancing Wu Li Masters" once and it just didn't do much
for me. I'm not strictly opposed to using similarities
between things as a technique to facillitate learning,
but IMO Taoism has more to do with unlearning.
--
Nathan Engle Electron Juggler
Indiana University Dept of Psychology
BLOBn...@indiana.eduBLUB BLOBhttp://php.indiana.edu/~nengleBLUB
"Some Assembly Required"
Mountain Man
john baez wrote:
> \"The Liberator\" <lib...@mcs.com> wrote:
>
> >Are there are many people who are interested in TTOP?
>
> I'm interested in how it distorts the actual facts about physics
> and eastern religions to make them seem more similar than they
> are, and also how it treats very different eastern religions
> (various forms of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism) as a single
> undifferentiated mass from which one can randomly draw quotes -
At the top of the mountain you find it very cool.
There will be none of the dissimilarity that
you can see at the bottom of the path.
The fundamental principles of all religions are one.
- Yogaswami, Sri Lankar
> a practice no serious scholar would ever indulge in.
Horses for courses.
> Certainly there is a lot of truth to Taoism and to physics, and
> to the extent that they're true, they are not in contradiction,
> but rather in harmony.
>
> However, Capra's way of going after this business is unfortunately
> rather superficial.
At least he pursues it.
All the best,
Pete Brown
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QuoteForTheDay:
"It is the story of all life that is holy and is good to tell
and of us two-leggeds sharing in it with the four leggeds
and the wings of the air and all green things,
for these are the children of one mother
and their father is one Spirit"
- Black Elk, Sioux Elder
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Liberator"
Nate:
Is it unlearning or re-learning or non-learning?
Nathan Engle
"The Liberator" wrote:
> Nate:
>
> Is it unlearning or re-learning or non-learning?
"In pursuit of knowledge each day something is added,
In pursuit of Tao each day something is taken away."
Sounds like unlearning to me.
john baez
In article <348765...@magna.com.au>,
Mountain Man <prfb...@magna.com.au> wrote:
> JB wrote:
>> Capra's way of going after this business is unfortunately
>> rather superficial.
>
> At least he pursues it.
True. I was very excited by the Tao of Physics when I first
read it in high school... it really motivated me to study more
physics and eastern thought, as I'm sure it's motivated many others.
In that sense, it's a very good book. However, once one digs into the
stuff he's pointing at, there's not much reason to go back to him ---
it's rather wince-making. Indeed, a lot of people reading this
book are so annoyed by its superficiality that they get turned off
instead of on. That's unfortunate.
dez
john baez wrote:
> I was very excited by the Tao of Physics when I first
> read it in high school... it really motivated me to study more
> physics and eastern thought, as I'm sure it's motivated many others.
> In that sense, it's a very good book. However, once one digs into the
> stuff he's pointing at, there's not much reason to go back to him ---
I remember high school. I would hear a new song I liked on the radio and
go out and buy it. The first few times I played it, it was great. After a
while, though, it got old and I was ready to move on to the next song.
Every once in a while, I still pull out those old records.
dez
Joe Cummings
On 5 Dec 1997 20:31:47 -0800, ba...@math.ucr.edu (john baez) wrote:
>In article <348765...@magna.com.au>,
>Mountain Man <prfb...@magna.com.au> wrote:
>> JB wrote:
>>> Capra's way of going after this business is unfortunately
>>> rather superficial.
>>
>> At least he pursues it.
>
>True. I was very excited by the Tao of Physics when I first
>read it in high school..
What was surprising to me when reading Capra's exposition of Buddhism
was how closely it resemlbed marxist philosophy.
Joe Cummings
JayBuzin
Mountain Man wrote:
> QuoteForTheDay:
"It is the story of all life that is holy and is good to tell
and of us two-leggeds sharing in it with the four leggeds
and the wings of the air and all green things,
for these are the children of one mother
and their father is one Spirit"
- Black Elk, Sioux Elder <
thanx for that one
"The Liberator"
Nathan:
It sounds like re-learning to me.
: >
: > Is it unlearning or re-learning or non-learning?
:
: "In pursuit of knowledge each day something is added,
: In pursuit of Tao each day something is taken away."
:
: Sounds like unlearning to me.
--
"The Liberator"
John:
I must agree with you. TTOP is a GREAT introductory peice!
Can someone recommend to me another great work--possibly a little less
introductory?
Seriously Interested!
--
The Liber8r
The Liber8r can be reached by e-mail, voicemail and web site respectively:
lib...@mcs.com
1-708-222-3050 x4021
http://www.mcs.net/~liber8r
: >> Capra's way of going after this business is unfortunately
: >> rather superficial.
: >
: > At least he pursues it.
:
: True. I was very excited by the Tao of Physics when I first
: read it in high school... it really motivated me to study more
: physics and eastern thought, as I'm sure it's motivated many others.
: In that sense, it's a very good book. However, once one digs into the
: stuff he's pointing at, there's not much reason to go back to him ---
: it's rather wince-making. Indeed, a lot of people reading this
JayBuzin
Mark wrote:
Nathan wrote:
>: "In pursuit of knowledge each day something is added,
>: In pursuit of Tao each day something is taken away."
>:
>: Sounds like unlearning to me.
>It sounds like re-learning to me.
Reminds me of the story about a dude goes to have tea.
The master fills the cup overflowing.
(from Red Pine's translation)
TTC 28
"be uncarved wood again"
TTC 81
"the wise aren't learned
the learned aren't wise"
TTC 9
"Instead of pouring in more
better stop while you can"
TTC 15
"simple like uncarved wood"
TTC 19
"wear the undyed and hold the uncarved
...
get rid of learning and problems will vanish"
TTC 48
"Those who seek learning gain every day
those who seek the Way lose every day"
M:
>It sounds like re-learning to me.
Sounds like unlearning to me.
{;-])))
-J
Nathan Engle
"The Liberator" wrote:
> Nathan:
>
> It sounds like re-learning to me.
Perhaps. If you had ever done it I suspect that you might
agree that unlearning is the closer term.
> : > Is it unlearning or re-learning or non-learning?
> :
> : "In pursuit of knowledge each day something is added,
> : In pursuit of Tao each day something is taken away."
> :
> : Sounds like unlearning to me.
--
"The Liberator"
Sounds like words typed on a keyboard to me.
--Sorry, too tedius again.
"The Liberator"
Nathan:
I always am suspicious of those who claim wisdom. I even am suspicious
about myself and what I just wrote. We're all ignorant.
I write for myself as much as everyone else.
[Still sounds like re-learning to me. It's a cyclical/endless pursuit.]
--
The Liber8r
The Liber8r can be reached by e-mail, voicemail and web site respectively:
lib...@mcs.com
1-708-222-3050 x4021
http://www.mcs.net/~liber8r
Nathan Engle <nen...@indiana.edu> wrote in article
<348ED6...@indiana.edu>...
:
amor...@geocities.com
an alternate support for the un-learning side comes from
the venerable old Chinese (Taoist-influenced) Chan
poem 'Hsin Hsin Ming':
"Do not search for the Truth,
merely cease to cherish opinions."
as I read it, it says: if you want to know the 'Truth'
just examine your opinions, one by one, and throw them away.
When you have discarded them all, then the Truth which
has always been there all along will be evident to you.
(i.e. the 'Truth' of who you really are)
Which, BTW, is what science forces us to do too, to throw away our
opinions about geocentricity, anthropocentricity, locality, etc. etc.
Except science would have us hold on to our opinions about
repeatability, objectivity, and quantifiability. Oh well, some
opinions die hard... :)
for full text of Hsin Hsin Ming, see:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1756/
jayb...@aol.com (JayBuzin) wrote:
>
> Mark wrote:
> Nathan wrote:
> >: "In pursuit of knowledge each day something is added,
> >: In pursuit of Tao each day something is taken away."
> >:
> >: Sounds like unlearning to me.
>
> >It sounds like re-learning to me.
>
> Reminds me of the story about a dude goes to have tea.
> The master fills the cup overflowing.
>
> (from Red Pine's translation)
> TTC 28
> "be uncarved wood again"
>
> TTC 81
> "the wise aren't learned
> the learned aren't wise"
>
> TTC 9
> "Instead of pouring in more
> better stop while you can"
>
> TTC 15
> "simple like uncarved wood"
>
> TTC 19
> "wear the undyed and hold the uncarved
> ...
> get rid of learning and problems will vanish"
>
> TTC 48
> "Those who seek learning gain every day
> those who seek the Way lose every day"
>
> M:
> >It sounds like re-learning to me.
>
> Sounds like unlearning to me.
> {;-])))
> -J
JayBuzin
Hi amorfati,
Thanx.
(post was:
>an alternate support for the un-learning side comes from
>the venerable old Chinese (Taoist-influenced) Chan
>poem 'Hsin Hsin Ming':
>
> "Do not search for the Truth,
> merely cease to cherish opinions."
>
>as I read it, it says: if you want to know the 'Truth'
>just examine your opinions, one by one, and throw them away.
>When you have discarded them all, then the Truth which
>has always been there all along will be evident to you.
>(i.e. the 'Truth' of who you really are)
>
>Which, BTW, is what science forces us to do too, to throw away our
>opinions about geocentricity, anthropocentricity, locality, etc. etc.
>Except science would have us hold on to our opinions about
>repeatability, objectivity, and quantifiability. Oh well, some
>opinions die hard... :)
>
>for full text of Hsin Hsin Ming, see:
>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1756/ )
I'm tempted to visit the site.
Matter of fact, I'm all caught up with the current.
Time to take a swim.
Thanx again.
{:-])))
-J
Hermital
On Fri 112/12/97 19:41-0600 amor...@geocities.com wrote:
>
> an alternate support for the un-learning side comes from
> the venerable old Chinese (Taoist-influenced) Chan
> poem 'Hsin Hsin Ming':
http://magna.com.au/~prfbrown/hsinhsin.html
--
Alan
Spontaneous self-organization is to the life sciences
as perpetual motion machines are to physics.
Consciousness, Physics and the Holographic Paradigm:
(subtitle: BEYOND ZEN: The Footsteps of the Dragon)
http://www.livingston.net/hermital/intro.htm
Nate Engle
"The Liberator" wrote:
> Hi
Yes, I saw your response the first time, but since my answer
was still the same I figured I'd just exercise a little self-
censorship.
"The Liberator"
Nate:
How we behave under stress defines us. How am I doing?
Getting back to my point, learning something new and forgetting something
old sounds like re-learning to me. Unlearning sounds entirely like no
learning, and that's as bad as not forgetting. Relearning sounds like a
continual fact gathering and improvement. Am I making myself clear?
--
The Liber8r
The Liber8r can be reached by e-mail, voicemail and web site respectively:
lib...@mcs.com
1-708-222-3050 x4021
http://www.mcs.net/~liber8r
Nate Engle <nen...@indiana.edu> wrote in article
<3495F7...@indiana.edu>...
:
rick
Mark wrote:
>
> Nate:
>
> How we behave under stress defines us. How am I doing?
>
> Getting back to my point, learning something new and forgetting something
> old sounds like re-learning to me. Unlearning sounds entirely like no
> learning, and that's as bad as not forgetting. Relearning sounds like a
> continual fact gathering and improvement. Am I making myself clear?
>
> --
>
>
Forty-eight
In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired.
In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped.
Less and less is done
Until non-action is achieved.
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone.
The world is ruled by letting things take their course.
It cannot be ruled by interfering.
Tao Te Ching, Lao Tsu, Translation by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English
JayBuzin
Hi Mark!
One thing I'll say about the censershipping ltd
is that it added a different flavour to yer in-sense.
The Lib-man wrote:
[...]
>Unlearning sounds entirely like no learning,
>and that's as bad as not forgetting.
>Relearning sounds like a continual
>fact gathering and improvement.
>Am I making myself clear?
Seams to me that you've not done yer (CT/TTC) homework.
My understanding is that the Way
tends to a state of dust-free mirror-type being.
Would it be *semantically* correct to say
that one (ta) "relearns" a bad habit?
Or that one "unlearns" a bad habit?
-and don't gimme no shit here-
{;-])))
-J
George C. Lindauer
> How we behave under stress defines us. How am I doing?
> Getting back to my point, learning something new and forgetting something
> old sounds like re-learning to me. Unlearning sounds entirely like no
> learning, and that's as bad as not forgetting. Relearning sounds like a
> continual fact gathering and improvement. Am I making myself clear?
we are kind of in hazy definitional space here... while the taoists
speak of unlearning in a sense there is no such thing since we
as beings don't seem to be able to exist without some kind of
learning. Yet I think you have kind of misinterpreted the point,
or at least you are saying words which have in my mind become cliche.
For example, in the scientific world continual fact gathering and
improvement is the norm once you get around the politics... and yet
it is in my knowledge that they take certain things for granted
and keep going. Yet I also know that they have limited themselves
with their assumptions, there is a great deal of things they think
that are quite honestly wrong and can be verified as such by any
one who has the guts to do it. So to apply relearning honestly
scientists would have to give up much of what they have in order
to get something better, and to date they have never seemed willing
to do that until a situation forces them into it.
So, you are probably a little smarter leaning toward unlearning if you
want to continue, there is a great amount of trash that can be
cleared out on the way to something better. But both of these are
just terms, make up something that makes sense to you and
stick with it.
David
Gr8tao
Thanks Rick for posting 48 -
Been thinking much about this verse lately -" Nothing left Undone" is an
interesting and compelling thought.
Forty-eight
<some snipped ...>
Less and less is done
Until non-action is achieved.
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone.
Tao Te Ching, Lao Tsu, Translation by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English
Here are 2 more versions
Lin Yutang translation:
"By continual losing
One reaches doing nothing
By doing nothing, everything is done."
Hendricks
"They decrease and decrease
until they get to the point they do nothing
They do nothing, yet there is nothing left undone."
At first I thought there was conflict between this verse, its message, its Wu
Wei practice and my beloved verse from Rabbi Tarfon:
"It may not be given thee to complete the task called for, but that is no
reason why it should not be attempted. Be not disheartened by the greatness
and difficulty of what is before thee. Do as much as is in thy power."
On the surface they appear to be saying different things BUT if one looks
carefully, folds in the subilities and looks BELOW the surface of the language
construction and symantics .... wow! one can see the Same Outcome but different
emphasis in achieving the outcome!
Is it just me? Yes? No?
Madelynn
JayBuzin
I just picked up this copy today but:
re: v48
Gu Zengkun writes:
"He who seeks learning
must increase his knowledge every day;
He who seeks the Tao
must reduce his knowledge every day;
He reduces and reduces
until he reaches the state of inaction.
When reaching the state of inaction,
one can succeeds [sic] in everything.
To govern the world well,
one must take inaction as the principle.
If one governs with too much action,
one is not a worthy governor."
ISBN 7-301-02815-6
Peking University Press
Bejing, 1995
_Lao Tzu: The Book of Tao and Teh_
Nathan Engle
"The Liberator" wrote:
> Nate:
> How we behave under stress defines us.
How *you* behave under stress defines *you*. Without
any recollection of any time when you have not been under
stress, that comprises the full extent of your experience.
> How am I doing?
Still thrashing around, although I'm gratified to see
that you've climbed out of the kiddie pool.
> Getting back to my point, learning something new and forgetting something
> old sounds like re-learning to me.
Where did I ever say "learn something new"? Pursuit of
Tao is a matter of letting things go.
> Unlearning sounds entirely like no learning, and that's as bad
> as not forgetting.
If you say so. I confess I'd feel more convinced on
that point if I thought I'd seen any evidence that you'd
ever experienced what I'm talking about.
> Relearning sounds like a
> continual fact gathering and improvement. Am I making myself clear?
Oh yes. All too clear. You persist in acting as though
pursuit of Tao is something that can be broken down and
analyzed in terms of your clarity. It cannot. Let it go.
Nathan Engle
George C. Lindauer wrote:
> \"The Liberator\ (lib...@mcs.com) wrote:
> > Getting back to my point, learning something new and forgetting something
> > learning, and that's as bad as not forgetting. Relearning sounds like a
> > continual fact gathering and improvement. Am I making myself clear?
> we are kind of in hazy definitional space here...
Go with that feeling.
> while the taoists
> speak of unlearning in a sense there is no such thing since we
> as beings don't seem to be able to exist without some kind of
> learning.
For everything learned, unlearning is guaranteed to
follow. Some unlearn at death, others somewhat sooner.
George C. Lindauer
> Forty-eight
> <some snipped ...>
> Lin Yutang translation:
> Hendricks
it seems to me the whole point of that was, if you don't look to
try to obtain an outcome, one appears anyway and it is better than
anything you could have tried to make.
David
> Madelynn
Gr8tao
David writes:
>it seems to me the whole point of that was, if you don't look to try to obtain
an outcome, one appears anyway and it is better than anything you could have
tried to make.<
Thanx David an interesting POV, however, Linyutang says, " the doctrine of
inaction (Wu Wei) is usually difficult to understand. Interpretted in the
light of science, it means making use of natural forces to achieve one's object
with the greatest economy [of effort ]. " He also notes the the same words are
used
by Chuangtse in Chapter 61. Linyutang's take on the concept of Wu Wei was an
example of a fire. One can feed a fire log by log "but for the fire to spread
by itself, the process is continuous then."
When I look at that, try to see it in practical terms of one's life, I see us
here in the west making much ado over how we live and if we are living
"productively."
We also mourn the loss of an outcome. For example at funerals we hear, "isn't
it a shame he/she never got to see how all of this [whatever you want to add
here] turned out - he/she was so involved with it. "
To me then, the two sayings combined seem to convey a sense that the real
perception of Wu Wei or "doing our footwork in life with greatest economy of
the steps" does not mean that we must "complete" the task at hand. It is
enough to begin the ripple in the pond especially if that is all the "power"
you have at your disposal. You have not been unproductive then by any means
nor have you forced your way on the Universe......
Madelynn :) - just thinking .....
Ichin Shen
Gr8tao wrote:
>
> Thanks Rick for posting 48 -
> Been thinking much about this verse lately -" Nothing left Undone" is an
> interesting and compelling thought.
>
> Forty-eight
>
> <some snipped ...>
>
> Less and less is done
> Until non-action is achieved.
> When nothing is done, nothing is left undone.
>
> Tao Te Ching, Lao Tsu, Translation by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English
>
> Here are 2 more versions
>
> Lin Yutang translation:
>
> "By continual losing
> One reaches doing nothing
> By doing nothing, everything is done."
>
> Hendricks
>
> "They decrease and decrease
> until they get to the point they do nothing
> They do nothing, yet there is nothing left undone."
>
I also have problem with these interpretations/translations, why "doing
nothing" leaves "nothing undone"? Every mind is a Wei, and everything we
do requires a mind, is Wu-Wei just another empty rhetoric? The following
is how I read the verse:
"The way of Tao is to reduce [the words to describe the action], less
and less, until there's none (as no word to describe the action, the
action becomes Wu-Wei), Wu-Wei, [as nothing in the way of Tao] thus
nothing not done [by Tao]."
Contrary to most people think, Wu-Wei is not doing nothing but doing
everything necessary until you can do it in no-mind. Then, you would
have entered the realm of Tao.
In the clouds,
IS
> Is it just me? Yes? No?
>
> Madelynn
Gr8tao
gchenry writes:
> there is no chapter 61 in the zhuangzi.<
You are right I was typing too fast. I am using "The Wisdom of Laotse" page
229 and the quote as LinYutang has it on this page says its from Chuangtse 6:1.
I haven't yet looked there to follow up.
Madelynn
Miller Jew
ref: Subject: Re: V erse 48
gch...@panix.com (George Henry)
Gr8tao (gr8...@aol.com) wrote:
: David writes:
>it seems to me the whole point of that was, if you don't look to try
>to obtain an outcome, one appears anyway and it is better than
>anything you could have tried to make.
As a w/man thinketh, so s/he has created.
Gr8tao:
>: Thanx David an interesting POV, however, Linyutang says, "the
>doctrine of inaction (Wu Wei) is usually difficult to understand.
>Interpretted in the light of science, it means making use of natural
>forces to achieve one's object with the greatest economy [of effort
>].
Hmmmm.. maybe "greatest economy" means a great effort to transcend the
least effort. The 'least effort' meant being the inertia of the
necessary dense physical well-being--> itself, in contradistinction to
changing and transforming it into a lighter body. Mother earth
nurtures all 'dense and light bodies' and that is a 'straw dog'
caveat, too. Its a question of what you want.
Gr8tao
>" He also notes the the same words are used by Chuangtse in Chapter
>61. <--- ((( I don't see a CT 61 )))) Linyutang's take on the
concept of Wu Wei was an example of a fire. One can feed a fire log
by log "but for the fire to spread by itself, the process is
continuous then."
I can see how the change and transformation needed to lighten the body
may allow a different view of the metaphored fire; the energy made
rarified through (my pov's) intuitive clarity that encapsulates (hence
"wu-wei"/no-action's on --> the mental/rational means would then
spread a new process of conscious clarified livingness.
G
>the fire metaphor appears at the end of chapter 3.. there is no
>chapter 61 in the zhuangzi.
I'm looking at Victor Mair's translation of said chapter 3:
"Resins may be consumed when they are used for fuel, but the fire they
transmit knows no end." In a bit of a pov, "resins" is the
material/Mother tao's medium for our soul/Te's use, it is as
nurturingly consumed as needed for manifesting its soul/Te appearance;
the fire is the ch'i-light of our eternal soul/Te temporarily
manifesting through the "resins".
gratis!
-Zhou
"The Liberator"
Rick:
Isn't that quote/passage a doubleedged sword?
Why did you post it if you desire to let things happen?
[Don't get me wrong; it is an interesting post.]
: Forty-eight
:
: In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired.
: In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped.
:
: Less and less is done
: Until non-action is achieved.
: When nothing is done, nothing is left undone.
:
: The world is ruled by letting things take their course.
: It cannot be ruled by interfering.
:
: Tao Te Ching, Lao Tsu, Translation by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English
:
"The Liberator"
"Habit" means to do the same thing out of need.
I need no habit, pleasure nor purpose.
: Would it be *semantically* correct to say
: that one (ta) "relearns" a bad habit?
: Or that one "unlearns" a bad habit?
:
: -and don't gimme no shit here-
What is good/bad but the same creature.
George C. Lindauer
Ichin Shen (sierra...@oakweb.com) wrote:
> Gr8tao wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Rick for posting 48 -
> > Been thinking much about this verse lately -" Nothing left Undone" is an
> > interesting and compelling thought.
> >
> > Forty-eight
> >
> > <some snipped ...>
> >
> > Until non-action is achieved.
> > When nothing is done, nothing is left undone.
> >
> >
> >
> > Lin Yutang translation:
> >
> > "By continual losing
> > One reaches doing nothing
> > By doing nothing, everything is done."
> >
> > Hendricks
> >
> > "They decrease and decrease
> > until they get to the point they do nothing
> > They do nothing, yet there is nothing left undone."
> >
> I also have problem with these interpretations/translations, why "doing
> nothing" leaves "nothing undone"? Every mind is a Wei, and everything we
> do requires a mind, is Wu-Wei just another empty rhetoric? The following
> is how I read the verse:
> "The way of Tao is to reduce [the words to describe the action], less
> and less, until there's none (as no word to describe the action, the
> action becomes Wu-Wei), Wu-Wei, [as nothing in the way of Tao] thus
> nothing not done [by Tao]."
> Contrary to most people think, Wu-Wei is not doing nothing but doing
> everything necessary until you can do it in no-mind. Then, you would
> have entered the realm of Tao.
not quite... a lot of things we think are necessary aren'tand if we
keep doing them and just try to quit thinking about them we are
just doing something else that isn't necessary. Wu wei more or less means
quit doing all the stupid things we all think are so important
and get on with life.
David
George C. Lindauer
> gch...@panix.com (George Henry)
> Gr8tao (gr8...@aol.com) wrote:
> : David writes:
> >it seems to me the whole point of that was, if you don't look to try
> >to obtain an outcome, one appears anyway and it is better than
> >anything you could have tried to make.
> As a w/man thinketh, so s/he has created.
my point exactly, three are some things that would exist without us
thinking about them and when we insist on thinking about them
anyway we just muddy up the works.
> Gr8tao:
> >: Thanx David an interesting POV, however, Linyutang says, "the
> >doctrine of inaction (Wu Wei) is usually difficult to understand.
> >Interpretted in the light of science, it means making use of natural
> >forces to achieve one's object with the greatest economy [of effort
> >].
> Hmmmm.. maybe "greatest economy" means a great effort to transcend the
> least effort. The 'least effort' meant being the inertia of the
> necessary dense physical well-being--> itself, in contradistinction to
> changing and transforming it into a lighter body. Mother earth
> nurtures all 'dense and light bodies' and that is a 'straw dog'
> caveat, too. Its a question of what you want.
actually it is the other way around, using the least effort to
overcome the greatest effort. Of course I am defining least effort
differently... but lao tzu says something similar with that one
chapter where he is talking about the great and the small and what the
optimium positioning of each is.
> Gr8tao
> >" He also notes the the same words are used by Chuangtse in Chapter
> >61. <--- ((( I don't see a CT 61 )))) Linyutang's take on the
> concept of Wu Wei was an example of a fire. One can feed a fire log
> by log "but for the fire to spread by itself, the process is
> continuous then."
> I can see how the change and transformation needed to lighten the body
> may allow a different view of the metaphored fire; the energy made
> rarified through (my pov's) intuitive clarity that encapsulates (hence
> "wu-wei"/no-action's on --> the mental/rational means would then
> spread a new process of conscious clarified livingness.
all you get is new sensations and new powers. They count for nothing
if you keep acting according to the same rules as before... I think
christ said that.
> G
> >the fire metaphor appears at the end of chapter 3.. there is no
> >chapter 61 in the zhuangzi.
> I'm looking at Victor Mair's translation of said chapter 3:
> "Resins may be consumed when they are used for fuel, but the fire they
> transmit knows no end." In a bit of a pov, "resins" is the
> material/Mother tao's medium for our soul/Te's use, it is as
> nurturingly consumed as needed for manifesting its soul/Te appearance;
> the fire is the ch'i-light of our eternal soul/Te temporarily
> manifesting through the "resins".
sometimes I look at statements like that and wonder wow! What an imagination
to be able to soar so high! And then I remember sometimes it is
better to stick close to the source... not that I woul mind if I
had wings and could fly like a bird, mind you.
David
> gratis!
> -Zhou
rick
"The Liberator" wrote:
>
> Rick:
>
> Isn't that quote/passage a doubleedged sword?
>
> Why did you post it if you desire to let things happen?
>
> [Don't get me wrong; it is an interesting post.]
>
> : Forty-eight
> :
> : In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired.
> : In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped.
> :
> : Until non-action is achieved.
> : When nothing is done, nothing is left undone.
> : The world is ruled by letting things take their course.
> : It cannot be ruled by interfering.
> :
> :
>
Learn something from it,
if not but what tao is
and what it is that is discussed here.
this group is about tao
not your ideas of what the Dalai Lama said,
or your ideas of connected opposits,
or your ideas of about gremlins,
or your diddies about scared organs and shit.
It was to give you an idea about what people here
think about learning and how it relates to tao.
ken
So who is counting?
Gr8tao <gr8...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19971218192...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> David writes:
>
> >it seems to me the whole point of that was, if you don't look to try to
obtain
> an outcome, one appears anyway and it is better than anything you could
have
> tried to make.<
>
> Thanx David an interesting POV, however, Linyutang says, " the doctrine
of
> inaction (Wu Wei) is usually difficult to understand. Interpretted in
the
> light of science, it means making use of natural forces to achieve one's
object
> with the greatest economy [of effort ]. " He also notes the the same
words are
> used
> by Chuangtse in Chapter 61. Linyutang's take on the concept of Wu Wei
was an
> example of a fire. One can feed a fire log by log "but for the fire to
spread
> by itself, the process is continuous then."
>
DoctorNine
sierra...@oakweb.com (Ichin Shen) wrote:
IS
> I also have problem with these interpretations/translations, why "doing
> nothing" leaves "nothing undone"? Every mind is a Wei, and everything we
> do requires a mind, is Wu-Wei just another empty rhetoric?
No. It is fundamental.
IS
>The following is how I read the verse:
>
> "The way of Tao is to reduce [the words to describe the action], less
> and less, until there's none (as no word to describe the action, the
> action becomes Wu-Wei), Wu-Wei, [as nothing in the way of Tao]
> thus nothing not done [by Tao]."
>
> Contrary to most people think, Wu-Wei is not doing nothing but doing
> everything necessary until you can do it in no-mind. Then, you would
> have entered the realm of Tao.
One has to understand what is meant by 'action' and 'inaction' in order
to understand the concept.
'Action' is something that proceeds from Ego and projects our Desire
onto the 10,000 things. It is basically a conscious, willful act.
'Inaction' on the other hand, isn't really simple quietism, although
there are some ancient commentators who interprete it so. Rather,
like the knife cutting the sinew of the ox, our movements are ordered
by the circumstances that we find ourselves in. A shih/fei is *felt*
and so the guiding principle is played upon us, as a cog in the whirling
intricacies that make up the One. How well we wield what Zhou calls
our merit/te is how well we hold to the One, without injecting our
personal opinion and desires into our response to the 10,000: we
move in and out, hollow, like the bellows...
My personal opinion, FWIW.
DoctorNine
Thornton Prime
DoctorNine wrote:
> >The following is how I read the verse:
> >
> > "The way of Tao is to reduce [the words to describe the action], less
> > and less, until there's none (as no word to describe the action, the
> > action becomes Wu-Wei), Wu-Wei, [as nothing in the way of Tao]
> > thus nothing not done [by Tao]."
> >
> > Contrary to most people think, Wu-Wei is not doing nothing but doing
> > everything necessary until you can do it in no-mind. Then, you would
> > have entered the realm of Tao.
>
> One has to understand what is meant by 'action' and 'inaction' in order
> to understand the concept.
>
> 'Action' is something that proceeds from Ego and projects our Desire
> onto the 10,000 things. It is basically a conscious, willful act.
>
> 'Inaction' on the other hand, isn't really simple quietism, although
> there are some ancient commentators who interprete it so. Rather,
> like the knife cutting the sinew of the ox, our movements are ordered
> by the circumstances that we find ourselves in. A shih/fei is *felt*
> and so the guiding principle is played upon us, as a cog in the whirling
> intricacies that make up the One. How well we wield what Zhou calls
> our merit/te is how well we hold to the One, without injecting our
> personal opinion and desires into our response to the 10,000: we
> move in and out, hollow, like the bellows...
>
> My personal opinion, FWIW.
> DoctorNine
I agree with your perspective, Doc9.
I think it is important to point out that Daoism does not have a
full-blown psychology and does not really elaborate on the role of the
mind. "No-mind" is a very Buddhist term invented long after Daoism
originated. While Buddhists certainly seem to benefit much from an
understanding of Daoism, it is important to note that Daoism was a
thriving philosophical system long before Buddhism arrive3d on the
scene.
Daoists seem to do things freom their guts, the mind doesn't really seem
to be there or not there. I question whether no-mind has much to do with
the original ideas propounded in Daoism.
thornton
JayBuzin
w/my .02 ante
Doc et al wrote:
[...beautiful stuff]
Doing nothing, nothing is left undone;
transports/transcends\beams me
to a place\non/place
wherein ego "i" disappears
as I am One-with all.
From this view, in stillness,
-everything is happening-
nothing is left undone.
When 'i' am being a human doing,
versus simply being a human being,
there is no end to the tasking
-spoken out
from the hub-
{;-])))
-J
Gr8tao
Jay writes:
>From this view, in stillness,
-everything is happening-
nothing is left undone.
When 'i' am being a human doing,
versus simply being a human being,
there is no end to the tasking<
Well said! You have a gift for wordsmithing!
But I ask here ... So you could not fold in the other saying either?
Interesting!
It must only BE me who sees they share a common bond. But then may be the bond
of common sight is seen only from that "Still Veiw" where EVERYTHING is
happening and nothing is left undone.
Madelynn :)
JayBuzin
Madelynn wrote:
J wrote:
[re: while doing nothing--->everything happens anyway :]
[...s]
>But I ask here ...
>So you could not fold in the other saying either?
I'm not sure what the other saying in the fold was/is?
TTC 48 translated by Gu Zhengkun gives a different spin.
"When reaching the state of inaction,
one can succeeds [sic] in everything."
To me, this suggests being *in the groove/zone*
that place wherein is super-conductivity or "coherence"
such that there is no-resistance or laser-beamish focus.
>It must only BE me who sees they share a common bond.
Nodtall. I _know_ eggzactly where yer radiating from.
The center of the center of all centers is identical.
The know\One/thingy (nothing/void/etc.) remains the hub.
I only tease Tod cuz the shear-weight of evidence
rips the clown outta me. Over-all, imo, while connotations overlap
denotations of G-d and Tao differ.
sum-antic-ally
{:-])))
-J
ken
Nice opinion!
DoctorNine <docto...@aol.com> wrote in article
<doctornine-ya024080...@news.zippo.com>...
> sierra...@oakweb.com (Ichin Shen) wrote:
>
> IS
> > I also have problem with these interpretations/translations, why "doing
> > nothing" leaves "nothing undone"? Every mind is a Wei, and everything
we
> > do requires a mind, is Wu-Wei just another empty rhetoric?
>
> No. It is fundamental.
>
> IS
Ichin Shen
Thornton Prime wrote:
>
> DoctorNine wrote:
>
> I agree with your perspective, Doc9.
>
> I think it is important to point out that Daoism does not have a
> full-blown psychology and does not really elaborate on the role of the
> mind. "No-mind" is a very Buddhist term invented long after Daoism
> originated. While Buddhists certainly seem to benefit much from an
> understanding of Daoism, it is important to note that Daoism was a
> thriving philosophical system long before Buddhism arrive3d on the
> scene.
>
> Daoists seem to do things freom their guts, the mind doesn't really seem
> to be there or not there. I question whether no-mind has much to do with
> the original ideas propounded in Daoism.
>
> thornton
The earliest record on Taoism, imo, is recorded in the Yellow Emperor
Classic, also known as Nei-Ching, or Su-Wen and Ling-Shu, where Yellow
Emperor (Huang Di) and his minister Qi-Bo discoursed the "Tao" of having
a good life, which included subjects on medicine, health, nutrition, and
its surrounding, the ancient Chinese cosmology—Yin-Yang. The Classics
laid the foundation of Traditional Chinese Medicine, which provided the
foundation of how ancient Chinese viewed their lives and the world view,
and consequently became Taoism.
"What receives things is called Xin ("Heart"), the movement of Heart is
called Yi ("Thought"), the meaning made in Thought is called Zhi
("Will"), the preference of Will is called Si ("Conscious"), the desire
of Conscious is called Lu ("Contemplate"), through Contemplating then
handling things is called Zhi ("Wisdom")." (Ling-Shu, chapter
Five-Color) As I've never trained in psychology, so the implication of
this passage is left for experts to interpret. However, imo, the
Taoism's view of life begins with thought. The natural state of Xin is
called Wang-Wo-Wu-Xing, "selfless and formless," which is also a state
of Wu-Nien (no thought).
To enhance the health, early Taoists also practiced Dao-Yin, an early
form of Qi-Gong. One method of Dao-Yin was "Jing-Zuo-Tiao-Xi,"
literally, "sit quietly and harmonize the breathing," which, imo, was
being adapted as "Zuo-Chan" in Chan Buddhism.
Buddhism found its way to China in the East Han Dynasty (AD 25-220), but
did not thrive for several centuries because its theory of samsara
(reincarnation) was incompatible with Confucianism and Taoism until it
adapted large portion of Chinese way of thinking and with the help of
non-Han emperors before it started to taking root in China. Chinese
Buddhism is no longer Indian alone but a product of two cultures. The
Chan Buddhism's doctrine on no-mind is only finalized by six patriarch
Hui-Neng, who was credited as the founder of true Chinese Chan (Zen).
What strikes me odd is that, unlike Western religion which different
religion has different practice and uses different terminology and
believers do not really convert readily, the philosophy, religion, and
other cultural teaching of Chinese all use the same Chinese language and
characters, why a particular term must be said by a particular group?
The person who achieves the state of Wang-Wo-Wu-Xing may not even
practice Taoism or Buddhism but a martial artist, what should s/he call
her/himself? Just a thought.
FWIW,
IS
Miller Jew
ref: Subject: Re: V erse 48
IS
> I also have problem with these interpretations/translations, why
>"doing nothing" leaves "nothing undone"? Every mind is a Wei, and
>everything we do requires a mind, is Wu-Wei just another empty
>rhetoric?
D9
>No. It is fundamental.
IS
>The following is how I read the verse:
>
>"The way of Tao is to reduce [the words to describe the action],
>less and less, until there's none (as no word to describe the action,
>the action becomes Wu-Wei), Wu-Wei, [as nothing in the way of Tao]
>thus nothing not done [by Tao]."
>
>Contrary to most people think, Wu-Wei is not doing nothing but doing
>everything necessary until you can do it in no-mind. Then, you would
>have entered the realm of Tao.
D9
>One has to understand what is meant by 'action' and 'inaction' in
>order to understand the concept.
>
>'Action' is something that proceeds from Ego and projects our Desire
>onto the 10,000 things. It is basically a conscious, willful act.
>
>'Inaction' on the other hand, isn't really simple quietism, although
>there are some ancient commentators who interpret it so.
Agree "inaction" is not so 'passive'. In tangent to this, the long-
extent manners in the "act" of zen/chan meditating is a quiet
'dynamic'. It's also a "conscious, willful act". It is a vital
relational affect-ion effected between the (capitalized Soul/Te -->
Ego's need and it's (necessarily "appearing") (lower-case
ego)/persona/personality's need TO surrender to the Soul/Te's
proddings to voice Soul/Te's Self's contact in the Mother/Mater/Matter
Tao's "earth-bound" world. That the intuitive contact of a Soul/Te on
its personally materialized medium makes for the empathetic communique
with the rest of the fellow spirits in human embodiment. 'Action' and
'inaction' might be seen distinquished in this way of approach for
defining these terminologies.
D9
>Rather, like the knife cutting the sinew of the ox, our movements are
>ordered by the circumstances that we find ourselves in.
There is a (action) concentration here (to answer a bit to Lisa's
notes re: :your move") that indeed, focuses on "the circumstances that
we ( as shih/fei's) find ourselves (in-volved) in".
D9
>A shih/fei is *felt* and so the guiding principle is played upon us,
>as a cog in the whirling intricacies that make up the One.
We recognize a condition or situation brewing in our incessant
interelating with the 10K Oneness; we then focus into service for un-
selfish action, for one's other aspects attracting (in-volving) back
into us. This is a shih/fei in action of in-action or un-self-ish
action. The Soul/Te --in its maturing state of Qualitative
knowingness-- through the mastering of all human conditions for having
mastered the human conditions-- recognizes and identifies the 10K Te's
as One with h/hers, for having been experienced in it. In a no-
egoistical sensing, but now in full scope of synthetic group aligning
"shih/fei"'s a *felt* sensing for "action". The harmonious nature of
"shih/fei"-ing moves into potential disturbances without being
kinetically disturbed.
D9
>How well we wield what Zhou calls our merit/te is how well we hold to
>the One, without injecting our personal opinion and desires into our
>response to the 10,000:
>
>we move in and out, hollow, like the bellows...
>
Indeed. If we get on with identifying and activating with the "Life"
in a Life-"form" we will make the "formed" bellows "full" of "Life".
D9
>My personal opinion, FWIW.
I am in "agreement" with your "personal opinion".
:::bowing:::
--Zhou
Thornton Prime
Ichin Shen wrote:
[Good, brief history of Daoism and Buddhism]
I agree with most of what you have written here. There are striking
similarities between early Daoism and Buddhism, and there is strong
evidence of early meditative practices in Daoist circles that would be
comparable to Zen meditation today.
I do think, though, that the classical Chinese concept of xin (heart) is
as similar to the Buddhist concept of mind as the Homeric concept of
heart is to the Freudian concept of the unconscious. It is important to
realize that for many Buddhists the mind was an obstacle -- an idea
entirely foreign to the Chinese understanding of xin. The Buddhists were
rather practical and clinical in their understanding of the mind --
which struck Daoists as foreign.
> What strikes me odd is that, unlike Western religion which different
> religion has different practice and uses different terminology and
> believers do not really convert readily, the philosophy, religion, and
> other cultural teaching of Chinese all use the same Chinese language and
> characters, why a particular term must be said by a particular group?
> The person who achieves the state of Wang-Wo-Wu-Xing may not even
> practice Taoism or Buddhism but a martial artist, what should s/he call
> her/himself? Just a thought.
True. Daoism and Buddhism do not fall into categories of Western
religion that exclude practices and beliefs. We do have to remember,
though, that this is not the way things have always been. At the time of
Lao Zi, Confucius, Zhuang Zi, Mo Zi, Mencius, etc. the schools of
Confucius, Lao Zi, Mo Zi, etc. were in clear ideological conflict with
each other (though not in the same way that Judaism is in conflict with
Islam in Israel today).
I do not want to say that the idea of no-mind is inconsistent with
Daoism, only that it is not inherent to Daoism. One can faithfully
practice Daoism without ever stumbling across mind or no mind. Another
practicioner of Daoism might even hold that mind = xin = true nature, in
which context, the concept of no-mind is not only strange, but
meaningless.
The original poster declared "Contrary to most people think, Wu-Wei is
not doing nothing but doing
everything necessary until you can do it in no-mind." I can agree (to
some degree) with this perspective of the Dao, but have to point out
that it is decidedly Buddhist and not the only perspective of the Dao.
thornton
Miller Jew
ref: Subject: Re: V erse 48
Thornton Prime <thor...@yoyoweb.com> wrote:
Ichin Shen wrote:
>[Good, brief history of Daoism and Buddhism]
>
>I agree with most of what you have written here. There are striking
>similarities between early Daoism and Buddhism, and there is strong
>evidence of early meditative practices in Daoist circles that would
>be comparable to Zen meditation today.
Hi Thornton:
In relating and keeping this to somewhat of an esoteric-academic venue
there has always been universal ancient wisdom schools that dwelt
heavily in "phenomenal" activities. In other words, if you review the
telephathic and intuitive manners of communication they processed, you
would then be able to bypass the cultural and environmental (physical,
mental and emotional) historics laid in that human (without Tao) study.
You have these wisdom schools in India as well as in China (and other
locations); and their roots laid 'sheathed' in esoteric or occult
(hidden) teachings for their fear of accentuating powers, forces, and
their energy plays that could cause havoc to the environment and to
those human (daos) that would misuse them. It was the case with the
Brahman caste. We see this in the mythological unveilings of Gautama
Buddha re-memboring there was more to life than was taught to him
inside his exclusionary "insiders" club. That it was his will to feel
the times ripe to expand their teachings for larger mass consuming
(that even today, the invisible caste is still denounced by the
hierarchy shows the crystalization and de-crystalizing in
constant (taoist) ebbing and flowing). Nonetheless in regards to my
POV on the Buddha, the early daoist were no different than the
Brahmans for the same (fearful) reason. If we can use common sense to
provide us with an historical review of that (3000 year + past)
ascenting times I suggest we have to accept and work (and they did)
with that ancient periods human spiritual 'nascent' growing.
T ( I repeat):
>and there is strong evidence of early meditative practices in Daoist
>circles that would be comparable to Zen meditation today.
I forget where, but the TTC mentions "heals" or was it the Chuang Tzu?
But the ancient Chinese performed meditation through a method of using
their heals on their buttocks to prop them up for meditation.
In another relationship to Hindu-Chinese meditation practice. The
TTC/12 mentions the sage "seeks to satisfy (the craving of) the belly,
and not the (insatiable longing of the) eyes. He puts from him the
latter, and prefers to seek the former"/ Legge. In this broken-up
esoteric piece possibly deciphered, the "belly" represents the lower
(sankrit) "chakra" located in the fleshly stomach area, the movement
here for arising our etheric ch'i from below to above to eventually
align all ch'i centers/chakra's into one great encapsulating, radiating
'presence', the "christ (son->'sun') consciousness come LIT, merry
x-mas-'bodhi' (tree-tops)!
Z! $ bamboo grove
George Henry
Miller Jew (zho...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: ref: Subject: Re: V erse 48
:
: IS
: > I also have problem with these interpretations/translations, why
: >"doing nothing" leaves "nothing undone"? Every mind is a Wei, and
: >everything we do requires a mind, is Wu-Wei just another empty
: >rhetoric?
: D9
: >No. It is fundamental.
: IS
: >The following is how I read the verse:
: >
: >"The way of Tao is to reduce [the words to describe the action],
: >less and less, until there's none (as no word to describe the action,
: >the action becomes Wu-Wei), Wu-Wei, [as nothing in the way of Tao]
: >thus nothing not done [by Tao]."
i had always interpreted this to mean do-- without doing. wei-wu-wei.
: >Contrary to most people think, Wu-Wei is not doing nothing but doing
: >everything necessary until you can do it in no-mind. Then, you would
: >have entered the realm of Tao.
i see this.. i responded..
: D9
: >One has to understand what is meant by 'action' and 'inaction' in
: >order to understand the concept.
: >
: >'Action' is something that proceeds from Ego and projects our Desire
: >onto the 10,000 things. It is basically a conscious, willful act.
ego is preceeded by ??
: >'Inaction' on the other hand, isn't really simple quietism, although
: >there are some ancient commentators who interpret it so.
for the most part 'buddhist" >> were they smiling ?? <<
quietism is kinda hard to define.. when asked they say little or nothing.
there is the marrow in the bone.. wonder what that means??
: Agree "inaction" is not so 'passive'. In tangent to this, the long-
: extent manners in the "act" of zen/chan meditating is a quiet
: 'dynamic'. It's also a "conscious, willful act". It is a vital
: relational affect-ion effected between the (capitalized Soul/Te -->
: Ego's need and it's (necessarily "appearing") (lower-case
: ego)/persona/personality's need TO surrender to the Soul/Te's
: proddings to voice Soul/Te's Self's contact in the Mother/Mater/Matter
: Tao's "earth-bound" world. That the intuitive contact of a Soul/Te on
: its personally materialized medium makes for the empathetic communique
: with the rest of the fellow spirits in human embodiment. 'Action' and
: 'inaction' might be seen distinquished in this way of approach for
: defining these terminologies.
look into the pool.. watch the thoughts arise.
: D9
: >Rather, like the knife cutting the sinew of the ox, our movements are
: >ordered by the circumstances that we find ourselves in.
: There is a (action) concentration here (to answer a bit to Lisa's
: notes re: :your move") that indeed, focuses on "the circumstances that
: we ( as shih/fei's) find ourselves (in-volved) in".
shih-fei the daoist realization.. the running of lists.. the like and
dislike .. the ordering of priorities .. the constant change .. did i say
flux ?? i wonder.. and wander.. freedom 'yu' i change i know.. but wonder
how the changes come about.. scuse me wonering again.
: D9
: >A shih/fei is *felt* and so the guiding principle is played upon us,
: >as a cog in the whirling intricacies that make up the One.
: We recognize a condition or situation brewing in our incessant
: interelating with the 10K Oneness; we then focus into service for un-
: selfish action, for one's other aspects attracting (in-volving) back
: into us. This is a shih/fei in action of in-action or un-self-ish
: action. The Soul/Te --in its maturing state of Qualitative
: knowingness-- through the mastering of all human conditions for having
: mastered the human conditions-- recognizes and identifies the 10K Te's
: as One with h/hers, for having been experienced in it. In a no-
: egoistical sensing, but now in full scope of synthetic group aligning
: "shih/fei"'s a *felt* sensing for "action". The harmonious nature of
: "shih/fei"-ing moves into potential disturbances without being
: kinetically disturbed.
a fly i swat.. i smell a rose.. moon half-full in the garden.
hmm.. i digress.. i forgot.. where am i ??
: D9
: >How well we wield what Zhou calls our merit/te is how well we hold to
: >the One, without injecting our personal opinion and desires into our
: >response to the 10,000:
: >
: >we move in and out, hollow, like the bellows...
: >
: Indeed. If we get on with identifying and activating with the "Life"
: in a Life-"form" we will make the "formed" bellows "full" of "Life".
classic words and correct..
: D9
: >My personal opinion, FWIW.
: I am in "agreement" with your "personal opinion".
: :::bowing:::
me too.. (we do alot of that here) i also forge cancel.
---g
--
George Henry
: > Daoists seem to do things freom their guts, the mind doesn't really seem
: > to be there or not there. I question whether no-mind has much to do with
: > the original ideas propounded in Daoism.
mind ?? that hurts..
---g
if i had a mind
i wo
uldn't be here
contracted/fractured
--
George Henry
: [Good, brief history of Daoism and Buddhism]
: I agree with most of what you have written here. There are striking
: similarities between early Daoism and Buddhism, and there is strong
: evidence of early meditative practices in Daoist circles that would be
: comparable to Zen meditation today.
not really.. chan was a later fusion.. 600 years later..
: I do think, though, that the classical Chinese concept of xin (heart) is
: as similar to the Buddhist concept of mind as the Homeric concept of
: heart is to the Freudian concept of the unconscious. It is important to
: realize that for many Buddhists the mind was an obstacle -- an idea
: entirely foreign to the Chinese understanding of xin. The Buddhists were
: rather practical and clinical in their understanding of the mind --
: which struck Daoists as foreign.
hsin .. heart/mind .. a little more convoluted.
: > What strikes me odd is that, unlike Western religion which different
: > religion has different practice and uses different terminology and
: > believers do not really convert readily, the philosophy, religion, and
: > other cultural teaching of Chinese all use the same Chinese language and
: > characters, why a particular term must be said by a particular group?
: > The person who achieves the state of Wang-Wo-Wu-Xing may not even
: > practice Taoism or Buddhism but a martial artist, what should s/he call
: > her/himself? Just a thought.
: True. Daoism and Buddhism do not fall into categories of Western
: religion that exclude practices and beliefs. We do have to remember,
: though, that this is not the way things have always been. At the time of
: Lao Zi, Confucius, Zhuang Zi, Mo Zi, Mencius, etc. the schools of
: Confucius, Lao Zi, Mo Zi, etc. were in clear ideological conflict with
: each other (though not in the same way that Judaism is in conflict with
: Islam in Israel today).
not?? ideological differences??
: I do not want to say that the idea of no-mind is inconsistent with
: Daoism, only that it is not inherent to Daoism. One can faithfully
: practice Daoism without ever stumbling across mind or no mind. Another
: practicioner of Daoism might even hold that mind = xin = true nature, in
: which context, the concept of no-mind is not only strange, but
: meaningless.
practise??
: The original poster declared "Contrary to most people think, Wu-Wei is
: not doing nothing but doing
: everything necessary until you can do it in no-mind." I can agree (to
: some degree) with this perspective of the Dao, but have to point out
: that it is decidedly Buddhist and not the only perspective of the Dao.
wei-wu-wei.. the spontaneous doing without heart/mind.
---g
--
ken
As the old Zen guy said " Eat when you are hungry and sleep when you are
tired and all the rest takes care of itself". The Tao that can be named
etc!
George Henry <gch...@panix.com> wrote in article
<67jto1$c...@panix2.panix.com>...
ken
Ichin Shen <sierra...@oakweb.com> wrote in article
<349CC2...@oakweb.com>...
> Thornton Prime wrote:
> >
> > DoctorNine wrote:
> >
> > I agree with your perspective, Doc9.
> >
> > I think it is important to point out that Daoism does not have a
> > full-blown psychology and does not really elaborate on the role of the
> > mind. "No-mind" is a very Buddhist term invented long after Daoism
> > originated. While Buddhists certainly seem to benefit much from an
> > understanding of Daoism, it is important to note that Daoism was a
> > thriving philosophical system long before Buddhism arrive3d on the
> > scene.
> >
> > Daoists seem to do things freom their guts, the mind doesn't really
seem
> > to be there or not there. I question whether no-mind has much to do
with
> > the original ideas propounded in Daoism.
> >
> What strikes me odd is that, unlike Western religion which different
> religion has different practice and uses different terminology and
> believers do not really convert readily, the philosophy, religion, and
> other cultural teaching of Chinese all use the same Chinese language and
> characters, why a particular term must be said by a particular group?
> The person who achieves the state of Wang-Wo-Wu-Xing may not even
> practice Taoism or Buddhism but a martial artist, what should s/he call
> her/himself? Just a thought.
>
> FWIW,
> IS
You could say all roads lead to Rome?
>
Miller Jew
ref: Subject: Re: V erse 48
"ken" <po...@cnl.com.au> wrote:
K
>As the old Zen guy said "Eat when you are hungry and sleep when you
>are tired and all the rest takes care of itself".
What if you can't find anything to eat although you are are hungry?
What if you can't find a way to sleep if you are tired? How can you
rest?
K
>The Tao that can be named etc!
Those who speak do not know;
Those who know do not speak.
This is what we were told by Lao Tzu.
Should we believe that he himself
was the one who knows;
How could it then be that he wrote
no less than five thousand words.
--Taoist P'o Chu-i/ nineth century
Welcome to the a.p.t. Ken, you're a Zen guy?
>g<
a Taoist,
--Zhou
>George Henry <gch...@panix.com> wrote in article
ken
Miller Jew <zho...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<67l1fi$7...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>...
> ref: Subject: Re: V erse 48
>
> "ken" <po...@cnl.com.au> wrote:
>
> K
> >As the old Zen guy said "Eat when you are hungry and sleep when you
> >are tired and all the rest takes care of itself".
>
> What if you can't find anything to eat although you are are hungry?
You die.
> What if you can't find a way to sleep if you are tired? How can you
> rest?
Try a sleeping pill. If that don't work see a doctor
>
> K
> >The Tao that can be named etc!
>
> Those who speak do not know;
> Those who know do not speak.
> This is what we were told by Lao Tzu.
> Should we believe that he himself
> was the one who knows;
> How could it then be that he wrote
> no less than five thousand words.
> --Taoist P'o Chu-i/ nineth century
>
Kindheartedness?
> Welcome to the a.p.t. Ken, you're a Zen guy?
Thanks for the welcome.I've been hanging about for the last couple of
months and thoroughly enjoyed it. Long time ago I was looking for something
and came across Zen. One day I found I wasn't looking anymore so assumed
that whatever it was I was looking for I'd already found.. Sometimes I wish
I knew what it was, but mostly just relaxing.
Not a lot of difference between Zen and Taoism? Rgds
Ps. If I meet the old Zen guy I'll tell him he doesnt know what he's
talking about?
Ichin Shen
Thornton Prime wrote:
>
> Ichin Shen wrote:
>
> [Good, brief history of Daoism and Buddhism]
>
[snip]
> The original poster declared "Contrary to most people think, Wu-Wei is
> not doing nothing but doing
> everything necessary until you can do it in no-mind." I can agree (to
> some degree) with this perspective of the Dao, but have to point out
> that it is decidedly Buddhist and not the only perspective of the Dao.
>
Why the statement must be "decidedly Buddhist"? ... What is the original
Buddhist doctrine on no-mind?
IS
> thornton
George Henry
Ichin Shen (sierra...@oakweb.com) wrote:
: [snip]
from the Chan/Zen side .. one must be able to 'lose one's mind' it's a
literal.
from the Buddhist side.. who cares.. either you are here or you are not.
---g
--
ken
Ichin Shen <sierra...@oakweb.com> wrote in article
<349EA1...@oakweb.com>...
> Thornton Prime wrote:
> >
> > Ichin Shen wrote:
> >
> > [Good, brief history of Daoism and Buddhism]
> >
>
> [snip]
>
> > The original poster declared "Contrary to most people think, Wu-Wei is
> > not doing nothing but doing
> > everything necessary until you can do it in no-mind." I can agree (to
> > some degree) with this perspective of the Dao, but have to point out
> > that it is decidedly Buddhist and not the only perspective of the Dao.
> >
>
> Why the statement must be "decidedly Buddhist"? ... What is the original
> Buddhist doctrine on no-mind?
I don't know?
>
> IS
>
> > thornton
>
Ichin Shen
George Henry wrote:
>
> Ichin Shen (sierra...@oakweb.com) wrote:
> : Thornton Prime wrote:
> : >
> : > Ichin Shen wrote:
> : >
> : > [Good, brief history of Daoism and Buddhism]
> : >
>
> : [snip]
>
> : > The original poster declared "Contrary to most people think, Wu-Wei is
> : > not doing nothing but doing
> : > everything necessary until you can do it in no-mind." I can agree (to
> : > some degree) with this perspective of the Dao, but have to point out
> : > that it is decidedly Buddhist and not the only perspective of the Dao.
> : >
>
> : Why the statement must be "decidedly Buddhist"? ... What is the original
> : Buddhist doctrine on no-mind?
>
>
> from the Buddhist side.. who cares.. either you are here or you are not.
>
> ---g
> --
Ken wrote:
>
> I don't know?
>
Buddhism is a mind, Taoism is also a mind, thus no-mind is in neither
but in the mind[of no-mind].
IS
ken
Ichin Shen <sierra...@oakweb.com> wrote in article
<349FFC...@oakweb.com>...
I don't mind if you don't mind!
>
lisa
>
> IS
> > I also have problem with these interpretations/translations, why
> >"doing nothing" leaves "nothing undone"? Every mind is a Wei, and
> >everything we do requires a mind, is Wu-Wei just another empty
> >rhetoric?
>
> D9
> >No. It is fundamental.
>
> IS
> >The following is how I read the verse:
> >
> >"The way of Tao is to reduce [the words to describe the action],
> >less and less, until there's none (as no word to describe the action,
> >the action becomes Wu-Wei), Wu-Wei, [as nothing in the way of Tao]
> >thus nothing not done [by Tao]."
> >
> >Contrary to most people think, Wu-Wei is not doing nothing but doing
> >everything necessary until you can do it in no-mind. Then, you would
> >have entered the realm of Tao.
[...]
Z:
That the intuitive contact of a Soul/Te on
> its personally materialized medium makes for the empathetic communique
> with the rest of the fellow spirits in human embodiment. 'Action' and
> 'inaction' might be seen distinquished in this way of approach for
> defining these terminologies.
> [...]
> D9
> >A shih/fei is *felt* and so the guiding principle is played upon us,
> >as a cog in the whirling intricacies that make up the One.
> Z:
> We recognize a condition or situation brewing in our incessant
> interelating with the 10K Oneness; we then focus into service for un-
> selfish action, for one's other aspects attracting (in-volving) back
> into us. This is a shih/fei in action of in-action or un-self-ish
> action. The Soul/Te --in its maturing state of Qualitative
> knowingness-- through the mastering of all human conditions for having
> mastered the human conditions-- recognizes and identifies the 10K Te's
> as One with h/hers, for having been experienced in it. In a no-
> egoistical sensing, but now in full scope of synthetic group aligning
> "shih/fei"'s a *felt* sensing for "action". The harmonious nature of
> "shih/fei"-ing moves into potential disturbances without being
> kinetically disturbed.
May I thank you gentlemen for the lively discourse on wu-wei. Recently
reading in Kuang Ming-Wu's _Butterfly as Companion_ about the
relationship between wu and wei:
Wu shows itself as a negative force that *loses* the objective phenomenal
wo-self [I believe this is what you mention as the lower-case ego, Z].
Wu shows itself in the disppearing of wo [thru the empathizing seeing of
self as part of One-ness as mentioned above] ". Wu selfs itself in its
unselfing.
Wu-wei can be understood in this context, and our understanding of wu-wei
sheds light on the un-wo-ing of wu. Chuang Tzu did not adopt Lao Tzu's
phrase, wei wu-wei. For the phrase is not only redundant but has two
dangers. It tends to make wu-wei into some*thing* to be contrived; in
wei-ing such wu-wei, the wei is re-introduced. In actuality, however,
the activity of wu-wei obtains of itself *in* the wu-ing of wei. Wu-wei
appears *in* its own act of self-disappearance; it is authenticated by
its self-catharsis.
>
> D9
> >How well we wield what Zhou calls our merit/te is how well we hold to
> >the One, without injecting our personal opinion and desires into our
> >response to the 10,000:
> >
> >we move in and out, hollow, like the bellows...
> >
> Z:
> Indeed. If we get on with identifying and activating with the "Life"
> in a Life-"form" we will make the "formed" bellows "full" of "Life".
>
> D9
> >My personal opinion, FWIW.
> Z:
> I am in "agreement" with your "personal opinion".
wu's or wo's, guys? :)
>
> :::bowing:::
>
> --Zhou
Regards,
Li