religeous vs. philosophical
Fred Hickler
"philosophical" daoism (an article I read called it "mountain daoism" -
another called it "taojia") to "religeous" daoism (that same article called
it "taojiao") that involves worship of many gods. I suppose the
"philosophical" aspect is what is mainly practiced in the west and the
"religeous" mainly in China(?) (Also, I realize these classifications are
ultimately not very meaningful, but there does seem to be range of practice)
I practice tai chi and have been doing some reading, so I have a sense of
what the "philosophical" aspect is about. I'd like to learn more about the
"religeous" aspect. What are these gods that I've heard reference to?
A brief outline would be great, but a book/article/website recommendation
would be equally helpful
- fisheye
TAICHI10
It is my understanding that religion is submission to a God or gods.
Philosophy comes from people's attempt to understand the reality in which they
exist and the search for "wisdom" in the application of knowledge. religion is
a way of life and philosophy is the contemplation of that way. Several
philosophies have become religions as people create establishments of common
belief systems.
Taoism began as an attempt to improve people's use of their internal stengths
and a oneness with the universe. the essense of life being consistent with all
of creation.
Dave
Fred Hickler
----------
In article <20000314180448...@ng-da1.aol.com>, taic...@aol.com
(TAICHI10) wrote:
My question is not so much "what is the difference between the two types"
but more "what is the nature of the religeous aspect; what are its gods?"
And, again, a pointer to sources would be as helpful as an explanation.
Ruby
>It is my understanding that religion is submission to a God or gods.
>Philosophy comes from people's attempt to understand the reality in which they
>exist and the search for "wisdom" in the application of knowledge.
Religion is explicating belief.
The philosophy of religion is analyzing the concepts, problems, and doctrines of
belief without promoting or discouraging such belief.
The philosophy of rickism is to discourage the comparative study of taoism and
established beliefs.
Ruby
--
Life And Death Are The Same.
The Hall of Xena Lists: http://hometown.aol.com/rubyredinger/
lawrence day
> ----------
> In article <20000314180448...@ng-da1.aol.com>, taic...@aol.com
> (TAICHI10) wrote:
>
> > Greetings Fred,
> > It is my understanding that religion is submission to a God or gods.
> > Philosophy comes from people's attempt to understand the reality in which they
> > exist and the search for "wisdom" in the application of knowledge. religion
> is
> > a way of life and philosophy is the contemplation of that way. Several
> > philosophies have become religions as people create establishments of common
> > belief systems.
> > Taoism began as an attempt to improve people's use of their internal stengths
> > and a oneness with the universe. the essense of life being consistent with
> all
> > of creation.
> > Dave
> >
> My question is not so much "what is the difference between the two types"
> but more "what is the nature of the religeous aspect; what are its gods?"
> And, again, a pointer to sources would be as helpful as an explanation.
Hello, and welcome to the grove.
If you have assimilated the philosophy and are interested in bridging to the
'religion' then the book you are looking for is the Hua Hu Ching.
An edition from Shambala publications (1995) is available, translated by
Hua-ching Ni. It is subtitled "The Later Teachings of Lao-tzu".
But you won't find any reference to 'gods' or theism at all.
Taoism, and for that matter Buddhism, are closer to what the 'Western' mind
considers a psychology than a devotional system.
Good luck!
--lawrence
be.rock
> My question is not so much "what is the difference between the two types"
> but more "what is the nature of the religeous aspect; what are its gods?"
> And, again, a pointer to sources would be as helpful as an explanation.
chex out shambhala publications dictionary of taoism isbn 1 57062 203 5
chex out the works of livia khon esp. the taoist experience
chex out the works of isabelle robinet esp. taoism...the growth of a
religion
Nathan Engle
> My question is not so much "what is the difference between the two types"
> but more "what is the nature of the religeous aspect; what are its gods?"
Are you prepared for the fact that the religious
aspect has nearly as many individualistic manifestations
as there are people who have had them? My understanding
is that Taoist folk tradition in China reveres dozens
of lesser "dieties", most of whom I would probably
classify as nature spirits (animals, weather conditions,
etc). The words of men are sometimes considered worth
repeating, but the men aren't dieties themselves. Wisdom
is great, but not *that* great.
> And, again, a pointer to sources would be as helpful as an explanation.
Most of what you can find on that subject will
pertain to how it has manifested in China in the past.
Personally I am more concerned with how it is happening
in the west today, but I'm afraid we're still writing
that particular bit of history so I suppose that isn't
much use to you.
--
Nathan Engle
Shop Steward Electron Juggler's Guild, Local #1
nen...@indiana.edu http://php.indiana.edu/~nengle
"Some Assembly Required"
Tzaddik
>
Bullshit...
Religion is not the topic of this newsgroup.
Tzaddik
>
> My question is not so much "what is the difference between the two types"
> but more "what is the nature of the religeous aspect; what are its gods?"
There are no gods in taoist philosophy.
Taoist philosophy is the topic of discussion in this newsgroup.
Dana Phillips
Tzaddik wrote:
Rick does not decide what is or is not the topic. Rick though does make
himself the topic of many posts and I think that he might be a bit
lonely.
--
"Some have brains, and some haven't," Pooh says, "and there it is."
Dana Phillips
Tzaddik wrote:
In rick's opinion which may or may not be the same as others.
Tzaddik
Figure it out asshole.
Tzaddik
>
> Tzaddik wrote:
>
> > There are no gods in taoist philosophy.
> > Taoist philosophy is the topic of discussion in this newsgroup.
>
> In rick's opinion which may or may not be the same as others.
>
>
It is not a matter of opinion.
Both of those statements are a fact.
Dana Phillips
I am glad you are posting a reply to each and every one of my posts as
it makes is so much easier for me to find my own now. Let me know if
you need the names of the other ng's I post in so you can come there and
do this same thing.
Tzaddik wrote:
> The name of the newsgroup decided what the topic is.
> Figure it out asshole.
--
Dana Phillips
Tzaddik wrote:
Once again I say the same.
Omnivore
word?
Stay tuned......
--
Go here and click to donate. - Only costs you a moment.
http://www.thehungersite.com/
.
"Dana Phillips" <libera...@netcommander.com> wrote in message
news:38CFC2F9...@netcommander.com...
> Hey there buddy, old pal, good friend of mine:
>
> I am glad you are posting a reply to each and every one of my posts as
> it makes is so much easier for me to find my own now. Let me know if
> you need the names of the other ng's I post in so you can come there and
> do this same thing.
>
> Tzaddik wrote:
>
> > The name of the newsgroup decided what the topic is.
> > Figure it out asshole.
>
Dana Phillips
too many laughs.
Omnivore wrote:
> Will the eternal flame
How could it be called such and then go out? Is this a government thing?
lawrence day
> Tzaddik wrote:
>
> > Fred Hickler wrote:
> > >
> > > My question is not so much "what is the difference between the two types"
> > > but more "what is the nature of the religeous aspect; what are its gods?"
> > > And, again, a pointer to sources would be as helpful as an explanation.
> >
> > There are no gods in taoist philosophy.
> > Taoist philosophy is the topic of discussion in this newsgroup.
>
> In rick's opinion which may or may not be the same as others.
>
Heh heh, actually his opinion [not his methods] reflects many hereabouts.
It is possible that without him,
long ago this newsgroup would simply have dissolved
into an ordinary battlefield between evangelicals and sci-skeptics.
When he barks, when he bites, when he is silent:
there is a message there
that you [Dana] may have overlooked?
--lawrence
Dana Phillips
lawrence day wrote:
I would never underestimate Rick's role here nor would I try to ignore what signs
he gives. I have said my points many times but that is not the real issue with
Rick and me. I do not bow to him yet I can respect him when he deserves such
respect. I think he is being child like now and being me I have to state that.
My main opinion on this is when in doubt if the subject belongs in here you should
ask but I would not ask Rick as his standards are strict. If the subject is pure
religion in nature then I do feel it belongs in another ng. I also feel Rick
causes more than he cures with his heavy handed way.
GeoWCherry
>There are no gods in taoist philosophy.
>Taoist philosophy is the topic of discussion in this newsgroup.
>
So, say something about he topic.
George
GeoWCherry
>Religion is explicating belief.
Religion is an obfusticating belief. 500 years ago your church believed the
earth was the center of the universe and tortued "heretics" who (correctly)
disputed this. 100 years ago your church denied the theory of evolution. Now
your pope accepts the theory of evolution. Next the virgin birth will fall and
then heaven will fall. But the worst sin of the benighted Catholic church is
its campaign against birth control and abortion and its denial that there is
over populaltion as a result of just too many births (especially in third world
countries). What has your religion EVER explicated? The Catholic church is
wicked and commits many evil acts and plants many false thoughts.
George
GeoWCherry
>Religion is not the topic of this newsgroup.
So, say something about the topic.
George
Tzaddik
>
> Tzaddik wrote:
>
> >There are no gods in taoist philosophy.
> >
>
> So, say something about he topic.
>
> George
I think Martin Palmer provides a good summary of ancient thought
concerning tao and diety in the book,
"The Elements of Taoism".
" In Chapter 42 of the Tao Te Ching, we are told that the Tao is the
origin of everything. this is expressed
thus:
The Tao gives birth to the One;
The One gives birth to the Two;
The Two gives birth to the Three;
The Three gives birth to all things.
Tao is often called 'The Way' in translation. this does not really do
justice to its cosmological depth of meaning. In its manifestation
through the words of sages such as Lao Tzu (the Tao Te Ching),
Chuang Tzu (his book is named after him) or Lieh Tzu (likewise),
through the path trodden by sages and immortals and so forth,
it is indeed a Way, a path. But Taoism teaches that it is more than
that. Tao is the ultimate source of all, the origin before origin and
the uncreated which creates everything. The Tao Te Ching spells this out
clearly.
Chapter 32 talks of the Tao as being forever indefinable. It is the
power beyond power and it flows through the world, like a river heading
to the sea, back to its origin. Chuang Tzu says:
'The Tao has reality and evidence, but no action and no form.
It may be transmitted but cannot be received. It may be attained
but cannot be seen. It exists in and through itself. It existed
before Heaven and Earth, and indeed for all eternity. It caused
the gods to be divine and the world to be produced.'
(Chauang Tzu, Chapter 6.)
For Taoists, the Tao is the eternal ultimate, beyond even Unity and
Oneness. As such, it is also beyond language, a point which Chuang Tzu
makes time and time again in his writings. Thus we should turn from
these attempts to express the inexpressible, to its more visible
aspects, the Unity and interrelatedness of all life and the Way by which
Tao moves and creates both the material and spiritual worlds. What we
have to discard is the concept that Tao is in any sense a creator god.
In later Taoism, the Three Pure Ones of Taoism came to symbolize the
personification of these Taoist principles, but were intended to point
the way rather than be Creators. The Tao creates simply because it is
the actual essance of all things. It does not set out to 'create' but
things emerge as a result of Tao. It is what the Tao Te Ching refers to
as the 'natural way'. The great Taoist commentator of the third and
forth centuries AD, Kuo Hsiang, put it thus:
'But let us ask whether there is a Creator or not. If not, how
can he create things? If there is, he is capable of materializing
all the forms. Therefore before we can talk about creation, we must
understand the fact that all forms materialize by themselves. If we
go through the entire realm of existance, we shall see that there is
nothing, not even the penumbra, that does not transform itself
beyond the phenomenal world. Hence everything creates itself without
any direction of any Creator. Since things create themselves, they
are unconditioned. This is the norm of the universe.' -
(Commentary on Chuang Tzu, sec, 2, 2:46-47 - quoted in Bary,
Sources of Chinese Tradition.)
. " - end of quote from, "The Elements of Taoism, by Martin Palmer.
also...
" At the heart of the Way is the notion that Humanity needs to be in
accord with and flow with the Way. This means recognizing that we are
but part of something much greater and more significant. It is in
contradistiction to the western model of reality which posits God as the
ultimate, but gives Humanity a nearest-to-God role in the universe. In
the West, meaning is given to the rest of creation through human use
of it. This is the reverse of the Chinese and especially the Taoist
idea. " - Martin Palmer, The Elements of
Taoism.
Omnivore
> I doubt it. He has followed me to other ng's now and he keeps giving me
far
> too many laughs.
>
> Omnivore wrote:
>
> > Will the eternal flame
>
> How could it be called such and then go out? Is this a government thing?
For J.F.K. there was a temporary eternal flame.
Jackie put it out with some holy water.
In whatever Taoistic thoughts I might think I would consider that
emotional self to wish this body to be discarded and recycled as much as any
'waste'.
Intellectual self figures that folks may as well do as they please.
The universe has a long time to get around to recycling whatever
containers the folks may wish to preserve the corpse.
Doesn't take a government to get uppity aobut ideas of what may be
eternal. Folks of the current Empire seem to think it as eternal and any
Empire past.
I dunno. Maybe I ought to ask some of these folks what a proper Taoist
is supposed to think.
Some sure got ideas of what a proper Taoist is supposed to say.
>
> > go out someday with someone getting the last
> > word?
> > Stay tuned......
> >
> > --
> > Go here and click to donate. - Only costs you a moment.
> > http://www.thehungersite.com/
> >
> > .
> > "Dana Phillips" <libera...@netcommander.com> wrote in message
> > news:38CFC2F9...@netcommander.com...
> > > Hey there buddy, old pal, good friend of mine:
> > >
> > > I am glad you are posting a reply to each and every one of my posts as
> > > it makes is so much easier for me to find my own now. Let me know if
> > > you need the names of the other ng's I post in so you can come there
and
> > > do this same thing.
> > >
> > > Tzaddik wrote:
> > >
> > > > The name of the newsgroup decided what the topic is.
> > > > Figure it out asshole.
> > >
Tzaddik
Trolls want this discussion to continue.
But it is not about taoist philosophy is it?
DoctorNine
Thank you for your scholarship, Rick.
D9
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Omnivore
I fall for it myself.
.
"GeoWCherry" <geowc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000315155912...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
be.rock
> but more "what is the nature of the religeous aspect; what are its gods?"
> And, again, a pointer to sources would be as helpful as an explanation.
Congratulations!
What you now read is sacred scripture of the True Law of Numinous Treasure.
You should feel greatly honored, for the reception of this text is
determined by many countless, immeasurable, innumerable, incalculable,
myriad, infinite kalpas of performances of good deeds, rituals, and
ablutions.
Your receipt of this scripture is in accordance with the will of the Emperor
of the Undifferentiated Realm; the Celestial Lords of the Three Pure Realms:
Celestial Lord of the Limitless Ancient Beginning, Celestial Lord Jade
Emperor of the Sacred Spirit, and Celestial Lord of Virtue; the Mother
Empress of the West; the Mother of the Bushel of Stars; the Celestial Lord
of the Great Beginning; the Seven Star Lords of the Northern Bushel; the Six
Star Lords of the Southern Bushel; the Officers of the Celestial,
Terrestrial, and Water Realms; the Patron of the Arts and Literature; and
the Lords of the Five Mountains; not to mention numerous High, Outstanding,
Grand, Mysterious, Heavenly, Perfected, Spirit, Numinous, and Superior
immortals.
You should feel greatly honored indeed!
On receiving this scripture, you should effect a verbal commemoration and
earnest pledge to the Chancellery of the Heavenly Masters:
In such and such year (date, place), I, on receiving the scripture
corresponding to such and such rank, declare that my body, in its original
state, has been invested with the energy of the Old Lord Newly Appeared, but
that I am as yet unable to distinguish it myself. Therefore, I have today
prepared tokens of my faith and have come before the Master of the System to
ask him to transmit the [tome.] Henceforth, I know that my Agent is
so-and-so. Having this recorded by the authorities, I pledge henceforth to
respect the rules of the Covenant.
Upon reverent recitation and solemn benefaction of this oath of initiation
the following certificate is made valid and the recording of your name in
the Registers of Ascendents is made.
From Taoist Body 68
be.rock
> the gods to be divine and the world to be produced.'
why did you quote that fundamentalist tzaddik
i thought you were careful with your words
else theyd come up and bite
that tasty bait called god
or were you just blind
with what you
thought
was
phl
Ruby
says...
>
>Tzaddik wrote:
>
>>Religion is not the topic of this newsgroup.
>
>So, say something about the topic.
>
He cannot. He merely wants this newsgroup to have a God-shaped hole to
mirror the God-shaped hole in his own soul.
Ruby
--
Life And Death Are The Same.
The Hall of Xena Lists: http://hometown.aol.com/rubyredinger/
Ruby
says...
>Religion is an obfusticating belief. 500 years ago your church believed the
>earth was the center of the universe and tortued "heretics" who (correctly)
>disputed this.
The Holy Father John Paul II apologized for this in 1992.
> But the worst sin of the benighted Catholic church is
>its campaign against birth control and abortion
Such things are contrary to the mission of Catholics to make more Catholics.
> and its denial that there is
> over populaltion as a result of just too many births (especially in third
> world countries).
The earth's population is never more than the number of people we are
technically able to feed at any time 't'. If it ever grows more than this
number, then starvation reduces the population until it is under the line again.
So it is impossible to ever have "overpopulation," at least plus or minus 40
days, which is roughly the number of days it takes for starvation to kick in.
Omnivore
.
"Ruby" <rubyre...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8apnrl$2a...@edrn.newsguy.com...
> In article <20000315155912...@ng-fx1.aol.com>,
geowc...@aol.com
> says...
>
> >Religion is an obfusticating belief. 500 years ago your church believed
the
> >earth was the center of the universe and tortued "heretics" who
(correctly)
> >disputed this.
>
> The Holy Father John Paul II apologized for this in 1992.
And the current asshole is apologizing again.
Not so goddamned infallible ?
>
> > But the worst sin of the benighted Catholic church is
> >its campaign against birth control and abortion
>
> Such things are contrary to the mission of Catholics to make more
Catholics.
And gone are the glory days of killing all who would not become
catholicks.
>
> > and its denial that there is
> > over populaltion as a result of just too many births (especially in
third
> > world countries).
>
> The earth's population is never more than the number of people we are
> technically able to feed at any time 't'. If it ever grows more than this
> number, then starvation reduces the population until it is under the line
again.
> So it is impossible to ever have "overpopulation," at least plus or minus
40
> days, which is roughly the number of days it takes for starvation to kick
in.
You are mixing quality with quantity.
Sometimes you seem to have a sharp mind. Other times you seem to loose
it. - You seem quite into plagiarizing so I could suppose the less stupid
things you post are not much words of your own.
--
Go here and click to donate. - Only costs you a moment.
http://www.thehungersite.com/
.
>
Omnivore
--
Go here and click to donate. - Only costs you a moment.
http://www.thehungersite.com/
.
"Tzaddik" <dead...@taotalk.org> wrote in message
news:38CF94...@taotalk.org...
> Fred Hickler wrote:
> >
> > My question is not so much "what is the difference between the two
types"
> > but more "what is the nature of the religeous aspect; what are its
gods?"
> > And, again, a pointer to sources would be as helpful as an explanation.
>
Omnivore
>
>
> Tzaddik wrote:
>
> > Fred Hickler wrote:
> > >
> > > My question is not so much "what is the difference between the two
types"
> > > but more "what is the nature of the religeous aspect; what are its
gods?"
> > > And, again, a pointer to sources would be as helpful as an
explanation.
> >
> > There are no gods in taoist philosophy.
> > Taoist philosophy is the topic of discussion in this newsgroup.
>
opinion which may or may not be the same as others.> In others opinion which
may or may not be the same as Rick's or Dana's
and so it goes>
Omnivore
> Dana Phillips wrote:
> >
> > Tzaddik wrote:
> >
>
> > > Taoist philosophy is the topic of discussion in this newsgroup.
> >
> > In rick's opinion which may or may not be the same as others.
> >
> >
>
> Both of those statements are a fact.
>
You are just a Jack Web fan - "Just the facts ma'am."
Omnivore
>
>
> Tzaddik wrote:
>
> > Dana Phillips wrote:
> > >
> > > Tzaddik wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > > There are no gods in taoist philosophy.
> > > > Taoist philosophy is the topic of discussion in this newsgroup.
> > >
> > > In rick's opinion which may or may not be the same as others.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > It is not a matter of opinion.
> > Both of those statements are a fact.
>
Whazzat? - Opinions of facts?
The only fucking fact I can see is that some folks got opinions.
Omnivore
"lawrence day" <ld...@pathcom.com> wrote in message
news:38CFD418...@pathcom.com...
> Dana Phillips wrote:
>
> > Tzaddik wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > > My question is not so much "what is the difference between the two
types"
> > > > but more "what is the nature of the religeous aspect; what are its
gods?"
> > > > And, again, a pointer to sources would be as helpful as an
explanation.
> > >
> > > Taoist philosophy is the topic of discussion in this newsgroup.
> >
> > In rick's opinion which may or may not be the same as others.
> >
>
> It is possible that without him,
> long ago this newsgroup would simply have dissolved
> into an ordinary battlefield between evangelicals and sci-skeptics.
> When he barks, when he bites, when he is silent:
> there is a message there
> that you [Dana] may have overlooked?
[Dana] has almost certainly overlooked something.
You mention what is possible. That leaves almost everything else open as
possibility. All I can say of Rick's doing is that they would exclude other
possibilities of what would be without Rick's doings.
What do you think of Rick's doing of taking his bitch out to other
newsgroups?
Shit! - In my own view I would think that Rick manages to much throw out
the baby with the bathwater. - Or maybe would use such a scattergun as to
shoot ten chickens for every chicken stealing fox.
I dunno. maybe everyone else is such wimps that they need a rabid Rick
to defend (How should I punctuate that to convey ....)
What is the image? Some group can peacefully quote some Taoist scripture
at one another and feel safe for sake of a Rick who would rabidly keep them
safe from all distraction?
This ain't no goddamned bamboo grove so much as a militarily guarded
encampment. The regulars have discovered what limits they are allowed and
quietly submit to that.
Well shit on my petunia! - Religion has been a very great part of every
culture. It may well be that every cultures religion has been one to corrupt
some wiser folks metaphor into some worship of the noise and exclude the
meaning. -
But I would think there to be some great meaning in every culture coming
up with some religion and deities.
Just that in itself would give cause to consider that the worship and
belief is a lot of cockamamie bullshit. But there is reality in humans
predisposition to do that.
But maybe the folks of this Ng are too weak in themselves to be able to
exist as a group without some sheep dog or junkyard dog to keep some
elements at bay?
Shit! This NGK does not even much impress me as a decent place for
jumping off point.
What is a Taoist but someone who has, so far, failed?
Omnivore
alt.philosophy.taoism
Frequently Asked Questions
Introduction
TAOISM is Many Things.
What is a TAOIST?
What about Yin-Yang?
What is Wu-Wei?
Is TAOISM a Religion or Philosophy?
What is Western TAOISM?
What is Westernized TAOISM?
What do we know about Lao Tzu's life?
What about God?
What are the forms of Chinese TAOIST Religion in China?
What are TAOIST Sexual Practices all about?
Does anyone have any information or experience with the books by Mantak
Chia?
Where do TAOISTS go when they die?
Introduction
The purpose of the FAQ is to provide short and concise answers to Frequently
Asked Questions in the alt.philosophy.taoism newsgroup. The questions are
simple as are the answers. To find further confusion refer to the APT FAQ
Bibliography.
This FAQ comes in three parts:
The FAQ Proper - This document.
The following parts will be developed later:
The FAQ Bibliography - A list of known publications - which in time will
carry reviews.
The FAQ Links - The definitive collection of Web Links. Anything and
everything that claims to be TAOISM on the Web.
[sez]
TAOISM is Many Things.
TAOISM (DAOISM) is the philosophy of Lao Tzu (Laozi) that advocates the
simplicity of existence, that teaches non-interference with natural events
and the leaving of nothing undone.
It is also the philosophy of Chuang Tzu (Zhuangzi) which emphasizes the
relative nature of what we "know".
TAOISM is the application of TAOIST philosophy to a model for living.
TAOISM is a system of Chinese Religion founded on the teaching of Lao Tzu
and many other Chinese TAOIST teachers.
[sez/ch]
What is a TAOIST?
Tao (or Dao) literally means "The Way." It is a term used to refer to a
dynamic and interactive way of being whereby one acts and lives in harmony
with nature and change. A person following the Tao does not try to obstruct
natural processes taking place. This kind of action, and stillness - being -
requires great clarity of vision and strength of mind.
To seek and follow the Tao is, then, a difficult but venerable task. The
literal impossibility of expressing clearly and completely in words the
perceived subtleties and pervasive nature of the Tao, or any human
condition, underscores the value placed by Taoists on any individual's
unique experience in the world, while also making clear the responsibility
each individual has to engage the world in sincere interplay.
The great teachers of Taoism, such as Lao Tzu, often met this challenge in
communication with abstract yet profound verse, which tends to convey a vast
sense of openness.
[os]
A TAOIST is a person who attempts to live in harmony with the world and to
apply the principles of TAOISM to their behavior. Those who succeed find it
easy, those who fail work hard at it.
[sez]
What about Yin and Yang?
Taoists believe that the natural forces of this world are the product of
tension-- namely, the ongoing tension between yin and yang. Nothing in the
world is seen strictly as yin or strictly as yang, though one force may be
slightly dominant in a given place, for a time. Things which do not embody
both forces relatively evenly have been observed to not endure; out of their
imbalance and lack of flexibility in their surroundings, they perish.
Yin is describable with words like feminine, flexible, yielding, flowing,
poised, compromising, soft, weak, and patience.
Yang is described as masculine, decisive, rigid, piercing, reversing, hard,
strong, and overcoming.
Fundamental to a realistic understanding of these forces is the notion of
transformation, of change. No one object can embody a single force for a
remarkable period of time-- the farther it strays from being balanced, the
sooner it will have to "change its way" (or else destruct).
To use the example of a jogger, the harder (s)he runs, the sooner (s)he will
need to stop, rest, and relax. This change is predictable, as are many
others, to the astute Taoist.
In the end, walking the distance may have been more efficient.
[os]
What is Wu-Wei?
Wu-wei means having no deliberate (intentional) purpose and implies
non-interference in the natural order. Frequently it is misinterpreted to
mean doing nothing which can be wrongly mapped to the Western idiom of a
"carelessness" or an indifferent "laissez-faire" attitude.
[sez]
In Cantonese we pronounce [wu-wei] Mow why (both starting as low as your
voice will go and then going lower). It means "No why." (not "No, why?") No
answers to why questions.
In either dialect it is possible to read the wei in a different tone and
treat it as something like "purpose" or "end."
Actually it means acting without assigning things to conventional categories
used in society's guidance schemes--no naming and acting in virtue of a
thing's name. The relevant meaning of "wei" is "deem, regard."
[ch]
Is TAOISM a Religion or Philosophy?
TAOISM is both a Religion and a Philosophy. It is a philosophy when it is
discussed as such, it is a religion when it's teachings are adopted as a way
to live.
[sez]
Scholars divide TAOISM into philosophical and religious systems.
"Philosophical TAOISM" refers to the writings of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu and
the "Religious TAOISM" to a vast range of "popular" religious traditions in
China. Religious Taoism is historically related (mainly as an ancestor) to
Chinese [Chan] Zen Buddhism.
[ch]
I have a very technical answer for you.
Religion is the set of behavior manifest by people based on the things they
believe to be true. This set of beliefs may be conditioned or rationally
founded but not superficial. For example, people frequently act in ways that
are contrary to the things they profess - and this is because even though
they profess a thing their belief in it may only be superficial. By this
definition "socialism" and "capitalism" are both religions and this is a
little controversial. However, I prefer this definition to the popular one
because it is far less vague.
Philosophy is rather more detached - an intellectual exercise. TAOIST
Philosophy is what you might find enumerated in a philosophical encyclopedia
or text book and would, in general, be that set of premises put forward by
Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. There is nothing in Philosophy which dictates that a
person act upon it. When the behavior of a person is directly influenced by
a belief in a philosophical premise then that behavior is religious.
The Western TAOIST begins by acknowledging their Western nature, influences
and history yet is inspired by the philosophy of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. The
Western TAOIST witnesses the truth of the non-theistic TAO vision and the
other insights of TAOIST Philosophy and believes them to be eternal truths
beyond culture. So, a person does not need to be Chinese or even pay any
attention to Chinese Religious Taoism or Chinese Culture to be a TAOIST. The
Western TAOIST goes further and asks an important question. In the light of
the TAOIST enlightenment what are the implications on how we now behave?
With that question Western TAOISM becomes a religion which at times
challenges established Western behavior and at times affirms it.
You'll note that my definition of religion does not require the notion of
"God" - we frequently mistake Theism for Religion - they are not one and the
same thing. Religious Chinese Taoism has all the trappings that we would
popularly associate with "religion" in the West.
[sez]
What is Western TAOISM?
As it generally appears in the discussion forum of alt.philosophy.taoism
"Western TAOISM" is the application of TAOIST philosophy in the Western
context.
[sez]
What is Westernized TAOISM?
Westernized TAOISM is the modification of Chinese Religious TAOISM for a
Western audience.
[sez]
What do we know about Lao Tzu's life?
All about Lao Tzu's life is mystery and legend, some even doubt his actual
existence saying he was invented as the stuff of Myth. Also, depending on
which school of TAOISM you look at there are different stories - some of
those even go so far as to deify him. I'll give you my personal perspective
and view from a Western point of view.
Lao Tzu is a historical figure, a simple unassuming man who was a librarian
during the Han Dynasty. His understanding of the TAO was such that by
nothing other than his example he became widely respected as an enlightened
authority and practitioner of the philosophy we now know as TAOISM. When he
decided to leave the nation it was because he was tired of the imbalance of
the society. As he left the nation legend recounts several stops en route.
The most famous of these stops known in the Western world is the stop he
made overnight at the gates of the empire where he was asked to write down
his teachings and overnight he wrote the 5000 characters that make up the
TAO TE CHING. In this account he is never seen again.
Legend also has it that he stopped at the Dragon Gate (Lungmen) Caves where
he stayed for awhile and provided the foundations of one of the primary
Taoist Monastaries. In another account he is said to travel to India where
he met a young Prince and taught him all that he knew. This latter story is
recounted in the Hua Hu Ching - and though it never explicitly says that the
young Prince would become the Buddha it is widely regarded as an invention
of subsequent Taoist church to show that Buddhist enlightenment came from
Taoist sources.
Little else is known of Lao Tzu life and I'm sure that this is as he would
have it.
[sez]
What about God?
TAOISM is non-theistic. That is, TAOISM postulates or recognizes the
existence of a supreme ultimate force that, for want of a better word, is
called TAO. TAOISM is a Mystical philosophy. That is, it accepts the direct
experience of the supreme ultimate by individuals. There is no
personification of a supreme deity in TAOISM except for the pantheistic
forms in some versions of the Chinese religion.
[sez]
TAOISM is pan-theistic. That is, if you are prepared to let go of the notion
of personification TAOISM sees "God" everywhere.
[sez]
TAOISM is non-dualistic. Where Western religions postulate a supernatural
explanation of the wonders of natural existence, TAOISM rests in awe of
natural existence itself. It takes its guidance from the ways or paths in
nature -- TAO. It is a mystical religion in contrast to (a) prophetic
religions which prescribe certain beliefs and to (b) ritual religions that
prescribe fixed routines of religious activity. Lao Tzu declares that no TAO
in language is absolute and ridicules Confucian preoccupation with
traditional rituals. Sublime religiosity in TAOISM is an attitude of focus
and absorption we bring to anything we do. A large part of that attitude is
an ironic sense that while acting we do not suppose there is any cosmic plan
or purpose justifies what we do (wu-wei = no purpose). TAOISM's implicit
nature-worship may be regarded as pantheism and its emphasis on total
absorption in one's activities is sometimes confused with Western "mystical
experiences." However, TAOISTS seldom cite the resulting heightened state of
awareness as proof of any religious doctrine or being.
[ch]
What are the forms of Chinese TAOIST Religion in China?
Before the cultural revolution shook that continent there were three primary
forms of TAOIST religion in China. The Monastic TAOISM known as the "Lungmen
(Dragon Gate) TAOISTS," the "Chengyi TAOISTS" and the "Changtienssu
TAOISTS."
The Lungmen TAOISTS descend from the TAOIST Hermitage said to have been
founded by disciples of LAO TZU at the Lungmen grottoes near Loyang where
LAO TZU stopped for a while on his departure from the Chinese Empire. Their
teaching is the purest spiritual teaching of LAO TZU. They practiced
meditation and existed on a vegetable diet. They never cut their hair which
they wore in the style of those ancient days.
The Chengyi TAOIST Church was quite similar to the Lungmen but somewhat more
worldly as the monks ate meat, drank wine and sometimes married. They
practice spiritism and exorcism, study magic, love lore and ancient herbal
medicine. It is the form of TAOISM that supports a pantheistic collection of
popular gods around which there is associated much evolved ritual. The Chief
Deity being the Jade Emperor.
The Changtienssu Church (Heavenly Teacher Chang's) founded in the Han
Dynasty (206 B.C.E to 25 C.E). Live mostly in towns. Their occupation was
the writing of talismans and charms, black magic, fortune telling and
mediumistic phenomena. They openly married, cut their hair, ate and drank
everything. Teacher Chang persuaded the Emperor that a new vision of TAOISM
had been revealed to him and that it should be officially recognized. The
Emperor granted the request and thus was founded a TAOIST Church with a
central unifying ecclesiastical authority. Teacher Chang established a
definite hierarchy of priests with himself as Supreme Priest - sometimes
called the TAOIST "Pope." Also known as "The Heavenly Masters."
[sez/goullart]
What are TAOIST Sex Practices all about?
In a word, TAOIST sexual practices are about "immortality," dealing with the
circulation and preservation of essential energies (including the retention
of semen). The practice improves health, provides longevity, and enables the
development of an internal spiritual strength that survives physical death.
The practice may be implied from the TAOIST teaching of "returning"; found
in both Lao Tzu and the I Ching (Ye Jing).
Not all forms of TAOISM adhere to these practices.
[sez]
Does anyone have any information or experience with the books by Mantak
Chia?
Mantak Chi's work is one of the few detailed and functional descriptions
available of practices needed for the integration of spiritual and human
energies based on the Taoist notions of "returning" and "chi". These
essentially meditational practices unify spiritual and sexual energies in
the development of an inner spiritual strength by "circulating the light".
One physical manifestation of this practice being semen retention and
multiple full body orgasms for male practitioners - another stems menstrual
flow in the female practitioner. In turn this inner strength is said to
endow "immortality" - such that the spirit survives physical death (per the
Tao Te Ching).
If you are familiar with reading English translations of Chinese documents I
suggest you take a look at "The Secret of the Golden Flower" translated
either by Wilhelm or Cleary and available in all good bookstores. This is an
esoteric document but if you can manage the imagery is an excellent guide
written in the 18th century by Buddhists from the Taoist Oral tradition.
[sez]
Where do TAOISTS go when they die?
TAOISTS do not believe in the Wheel of Life of the Buddhists nor in the
Heaven or Hell of Christianity. "TAOISTS view existence as glorious. The
whole Universe, they teach, is a marvelous, vibrant Unity wherein
everything, visible and invisible, pulses with energy and changes. As being
develops through the experience of existence, its vessels ... are swept
onwards by the mighty stream of the eternal TAO to other forms of expression
and activity. Man does not die; he merely extends into new fields . ...
TAOISTS teach that the end of a person is the return to the Ultimate
Reality."
[sez/goullart]
"Huh???" or "Away! (i.e. Adao!)
[ch]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Editor: Steven Ericsson Zenith.
Written contributions by:
[sez] Steven Ericsson Zenith: ste...@thetemple.com
[os] Oliver Sterczyk: ster...@unixg.ubc.ca
[ch] Chad Hansen: hrx...@hkuxa.hku.hk
Sources and Quotes from:
Peter Goullart's "The Monastery of Jade Mountain"
The Shrine of Wisdom
TAOFAQ Published by The Temple of the Immortal Spirit:
http://www.thetemple.com/
Copyright FREE.
This publication may be freely copied and used for any purpose.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
lisa
> before Heaven and Earth, and indeed for all eternity. It caused
> the gods to be divine and the world to be produced.'
>
> (Chauang Tzu, Chapter 6.)
>
>For Taoists, the Tao is the eternal ultimate, beyond even Unity and
>Oneness. As such, it is also beyond language, a point which Chuang Tzu
>makes time and time again in his writings. Thus we should turn from
>these attempts to express the inexpressible, to its more visible
>aspects, the Unity and interrelatedness of all life and the Way by which
>Tao moves and creates both the material and spiritual worlds. What we
>have to discard is the concept that Tao is in any sense a creator god.
>In later Taoism, the Three Pure Ones of Taoism came to symbolize the
>personification of these Taoist principles, but were intended to point
>the way rather than be Creators. The Tao creates simply because it is
>the actual essance of all things. It does not set out to 'create' but
>things emerge as a result of Tao.
the mysterious mother. i love reading it and typing it.
It is what the Tao Te Ching refers to
>as the 'natural way'. The great Taoist commentator of the third and
>forth centuries AD, Kuo Hsiang, put it thus:
>
> 'But let us ask whether there is a Creator or not. If not, how
> can he create things? If there is, he is capable of materializing
> all the forms. Therefore before we can talk about creation, we must
> understand the fact that all forms materialize by themselves.
from which all things spring and to which all things return. who knows by
which this spontaneous springing-forth occurs. yes, it is mysterious and most
wondrous!
If we
> go through the entire realm of existance, we shall see that there is
> nothing, not even the penumbra, that does not transform itself
> beyond the phenomenal world. Hence everything creates itself without
> any direction of any Creator. Since things create themselves, they
> are unconditioned. This is the norm of the universe.' -
>
> (Commentary on Chuang Tzu, sec, 2, 2:46-47 - quoted in Bary,
> Sources of Chinese Tradition.)
>
> . " - end of quote from, "The Elements of Taoism, by Martin Palmer.
>
> also...
>
> " At the heart of the Way is the notion that Humanity needs to be in
>accord with and flow with the Way. This means recognizing that we are
>but part of something much greater and more significant. It is in
>contradistiction to the western model of reality which posits God as the
>ultimate, but gives Humanity a nearest-to-God role in the universe. In
>the West, meaning is given to the rest of creation through human use
>of it. This is the reverse of the Chinese and especially the Taoist
>idea. " - Martin Palmer, The Elements of
> Taoism.
Outstanding quotes and commentary. Gets the old engine revving!
I see George Cherry wasn't satisfied though. ::sigh::
I don't know about you, but that name, with a few letters mixed around, looks
like a name we know and love, rick. It indicates to me that Mr. Cherry is a
troll.
rgds,
--li
Dana Phillips
Ruby wrote:
> In article <20000315160030...@ng-fx1.aol.com>, geowc...@aol.com
> says...
> >
> >Tzaddik wrote:
> >
> >>Religion is not the topic of this newsgroup.
> >
> >So, say something about the topic.
> >
> He cannot. He merely wants this newsgroup to have a God-shaped hole to
> mirror the God-shaped hole in his own soul.
It is not that either. I have no idea of rick's soul or if he even says he has
one. I do find it funny that a few of the more extreme anti-God folks take on
all the worse attributes and personality that some find so deplorable in other
people's descriptions of God.
>
>
> Ruby
> --
> Life And Death Are The Same.
>
> The Hall of Xena Lists: http://hometown.aol.com/rubyredinger/
--
Dana Phillips
What I have found on the same subject as provided by http://www.remarq.com/
Description of the ng:
Taoism - Philosophy
All aspects of Taoism.
alt.philosophy.taoism
862 topics, 517 members
Note that it say all aspects of taoism.
Also here is the current list of people who post in the ng. It seems that it is
more than just rick. Keep in mind that many people also lurk and that some of
these names are different personas of the same person.
Member name
!
- gs -
23Skidooooo
a
A. Walkling-Ribeiro
Aaron Johnson
Aethelrede
Agent Smith
Al Klein
Alan
Alan S. Bernstein
Alex Wilding
Alexander Kalinowski
Allan Ploth
alle...@my-deja.com
AlphaOmega
Always420
Amber, Dan, DARE, or J...
amin
Anders Honore
Andrew Haley
Andrew Williams
Anna Coen
Arnold Vance
Avital Pilpel
AvS (Ardie Von Strenfried
B
Baraka Jaden
barry nelson
BB
be.rock
Beth Pierce
be...@jvlnet.com
be...@nospam.jvlnet.com
Bill
Bill
Bill
Bill Bonde
Bill Snyder
Bill Taylor
bird ^v^
BlabHayes
Bonnie Datta
bookburn
bookbu...@my-deja.com
Bootfasa
Boris Nikiforov
Brad McCormick, Ed.D.
BRAD4AND2
Brer Rabbit
brian
Brian Cadd
Bronwyn
bruce borello
Bryan J. Maloney
BTS1243
bubba_chuck
CAJ
calv...@my-deja.com
Cameron McKeel
CandiDelite
Carl Brown
Catalin Nimitan
catul...@my-deja.com
ccdrogan
cde
Chad L
Chantal Ct
Charmed
chino...@my-deja.com
Chris McCormack
Chris McCormack
Chris Wylie
Chris__Dadds
Christopher A. Lee
Christopher H. Holte
Christopher Robin
Clif Barnes
Cody
CoffeeHead
Conner Baldwin
Cor Kuin
Craig Chilton
CSABA HARANGOZO
cyberclay
Cyberia
cyndi...@my-deja.com
cythera
D. Henderson
Daimonic
Dale
Dale Tilson
dan
dan
Dan Cook
Dan Pixley
Dana Phillips
Dana Phillips
dao_d...@my-deja.com
dar
Dave Bester
Dave Palermo
Dave Winslow
DaveMirr
David Bringen
David Burleson
David Dibler
David E.J. Perez
David G Dick
David Lindauer
David O'Bedlam
davidgjonesjtbs@my-dej...
DavorNicali
davy...@my-deja.com
Dayamati Dharmachari
de_man
dead...@earthling.net
dead...@earthlink.net
Dean Crabb
Dean Crabb
Dean Crabb
de...@jungtao.com
Delia
Derek & Stephanie
Derek Ayre
Dharmadeva
DharmaTroll
DireWolf
Dirk Bruere
DLS
Dobador
DoctorNine
DoctorNine
DoctorNine
Dominik Pusch
Don H
Don James
Don_JV44
doo-doo
dow
dps104
Dr Sinister
Dragonfly
drak...@aol.com
dr...@ecity.net
Dunun
duti...@my-deja.com
dw
e.
ecotao
ecotao
Ed Belt
Ed Seedhouse
Elgar
Elizabeth J. Jelich-Gr...
Emily Smirle
empty
Eric Chomko
Eric Hocking
Erick W. Neiss
erikc
Ermanna
Ernest Brown
Ernest Dumenigo
Esther Jacobs
Esther Jacobs
Esther Jacobs
et...@yahoo.com
EuphoriaDJ
Evelyn Ruut
ex_...@my-deja.com
Fish
Member name
FlaccidTao
Flash
Food-for-thought
Fred Hickler
Free Thought
Fringe4
Frog-in-a-well
G
gareth Allwyn-Evans
garry
Gary Stroud
GebSald
genein
Geoffrey Siskind
George Henry
GeoWCherry
Gerth-Robey
gg...@columbia.edu
Gil & Wendy
gj
Gleason Pace
GOPBill
Gracie
Graham Healey
grandwazoo
Greg Gruschow
Gregory J. Rosenthal
grimgard
grsh...@my-deja.com
Guoxiu49
Guoxiu49
Hakkalow
Hari Har Singh
Harlan Messinger
HASSAN .
HealingSky
Henrik =?iso-8859-1?Q?...
Hiatt
Hodologica
HRGI news
hts...@my-deja.com
HungrySoul
Ichin Shen
Infinity Complex
info...@my-deja.com
inova
Ischade
Ismal Morrissette
J Yuschenko
Jack Williams
Jackie
James
James Woodhouse
janiej...@my-deja.com
jaro...@my-deja.com
Jason
JASON MATCHETT
Jason Travis
JayBuzin
Jaybuzin0000
Jazz
JDT
Jean Paul Turcaud
jeff
Jeff Fairman
Jeff Fairman
Jeff Ridley
Jeffrey A. Young
Jess
Jess
jesse l nowells
Jew
Jigme Dorje
Jigme...@mindful.com
Jillaruni
Jim Burns
Jim Fish
Jim Kurtz
Jimmie Walker
Jimmy Lind
JMNugent
Job ter Haar
joe record
John C. Randolph
John E. M.
John Kahila
John Timothy Hall
John Waterman
JohnathanBird
JOH...@worldnet.att.net
Jon C. Gilbert
Jon Schultz
Joni Nummi
Joseph S. Powell,III
Joshua O'Brien
jouleki
Joyful Undead
Juha Vinnurva
JunFanGF
Just me
K'Prie
K'Prie
K'Prie
K'Prie
K'Prie
kamerm
Karen Bowe
Karl Senior
Kayll Harrington
ken
Ken R.D.
kentr
Kevin R H Sheffield
k...@springhaven.org
Klaus Schmetterling
kojak
Kwanseum
Lady Simone
LaganzaF
Lamia
Lare / Mo Lei-Li ( =?i...
lark...@my-deja.com
lauri...@my-deja.com
lawrence day
lee
Lee Mansfield
Lee Wilson
leebert
Leo Sgouros
Leo Wong
le...@yahoo.com
Lexicon
LHM
liaM
liberator
lightchannel
li...@flash.net
lisa
lkfox
llow (UDIL
loosel...@my-deja.com
LoveMinusO
ltl...@mindspring.com
MacLee
Magenta
Mahasanti
Malcolm Timbers
mant...@my-deja.com
Marcus Godfrey
Marcus S. Turner
margaret
Mark & Stella Charneski
Mark Dunlop
Mark Richardson
Mark Sentesy
MarsRules
Martin Ellison
MarvinGlover
Mathias Alvebring
mdhjwh
me...@my-deja.com
Michael
Michael B. Baker
Michael Brlecic
Michael Schn
Mike Barber
Mike Biggins
Mike Driscoll
Mike Kingscott
Mike Wrona
mindgazer
MOhton
Member name
Moonshadao
Moonshadao
Moonshadao
Mr.Bones
mr...@my-deja.com
muqt...@my-deja.com
musician
nameless
Nathan Engle
Nathen
Ned Ludd
Nevermind
NewsReader81
nf
Nick
Nick Ruisi
Ninna Love
nous...@my-deja.com
Nuncio
nwsbr...@my-deja.com
O'mnivore
Odysseus
Okamura
Omnivore
Omnivore
one_hand_clapping@my-d...
P. Blauw
pangolin
part-time taoist
Pastor Frank
Patrick Alexander
Paul
Paul Fortin
Paul Hilling
Pavestone
Peaceful Harbor
Philip
piet...@my-deja.com
polly_jean
pricer...@my-deja.com
Proteus
Punnadhammo
pura...@tiscalinet.it
PZ Myers
Quester
R O A D R U N N E R
Raymond Camarillo
Rebecca Askew
Reg
Renelda D
Rev. Brian Regan
Rev. Mykeru
Richard
Richard Kennaway
Rick H
RICK47SHAE
RMLinstead
Road Toad
RoadRunner
Rob
Rob Lent
Robert Cline
Robert Ward
ROBERT YAGELOWICH
robinandlynne
Roger Garin-Michaud
ronh
ror...@dmbb.de
ror...@my-deja.com
Rose
Ruby
Ruby
Ruth Mott
Ryan
Sa Wei-Dao
(=?iso-8859...
sab...@my-deja.com
sam_p...@my-deja.com
Sanford Manley
SansR
Sarah Whitworth
Sciamachy
SCTCA
Seaepul
Sepp Rothwangl
Serial # 0
Seth
Shari Berkowitz
Sharon Heintz
si...@telebot.com
Skeptic
Slarty
Snake Eyes
Snakey
Sniper
Softshadow
sons...@mindspring.com
spaced
spacejan
spade
Spaghettis
Spawn
Sphere
Stavros
steely dan
Stephen Gilman
Stephen Johnston
Stephen Knight
Stephen R Gould
Steuard Jensen
Steve Carter
Steve Q.
Steve Q.
STEVEN BOTTS
Steven Lightfoot
sunbeam_wayferer
Susan Diller
Sword of Truth
syncretism
TAICHI10
Tang Huyen
tao frog
tassnee8
tee...@spamtrap.com
Temporal Rift
Terry Gardner
terry gardner
ThclG
The Bellman
The Omikron Group
the softrat
Theravad
Thomas.Elliott
TJaymars
Tom Billings
Tomas Berndtsson
Tomek
to...@my-deja.com
Troll
TrolleyDriver
tsh...@my-deja.com
Turiyan "OG: original
...
turnb...@webtv.net
twhalen2
Tzaddik
uchu1
universalpakua
us...@it.moc
Vadim Osipov
Vasos Panagiotopoulos
...
vaughn croteau
Veronique
vie...@my-deja.com
Wally Anglesea
Wally Chapman
water
whereiswisdom
will hunting
William R. Cousert
winnerej
WivFam
wulf.dieterich@debitel...
wulf_dieterich@my-deja...
X
xiwangmu
xtem...@hotmail.com
yak...@my-deja.com
Yves
zensufi
zhuge...@my-deja.com
Zxdad
zz
ZZZ
~{UT@ojE~}Chiew Lee
Yih
Omnivore wrote:
--
Tzaddik
>
Catholic bullshit and wants me to write about 'ruby' in alt.tv.xena
Will I have fun?
Tzaddik
>
He merely wants this newsgroup to have a God-shaped hole to
> mirror the God-shaped hole in his own soul.
>
> --
Just trying to rid it of the asshole shaped hole
that you fill.
Tzaddik
>
> I do find it funny that a few of the more extreme anti-God folks take on
> all the worse attributes and personality that some find so deplorable in other
> people's descriptions of God.
>
I find that most of the god loving assholes take on the
attributes and personality of the sheep that they screw.
Talk sheep to us Dana. You should know that language well.
Dana Phillips
Omnivore wrote:
> "lawrence day" <ld...@pathcom.com> wrote in message
> news:38CFD418...@pathcom.com...
> > Dana Phillips wrote:
> >
> > > Tzaddik wrote:
> > >
> > > > Fred Hickler wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > My question is not so much "what is the difference between the two
> types"
> > > > > but more "what is the nature of the religeous aspect; what are its
> gods?"
> > > > > And, again, a pointer to sources would be as helpful as an
> explanation.
> > > >
> > > > There are no gods in taoist philosophy.
> > > > Taoist philosophy is the topic of discussion in this newsgroup.
> > >
> > > In rick's opinion which may or may not be the same as others.
> > >
> >
> > Heh heh, actually his opinion [not his methods] reflects many hereabouts.
> > It is possible that without him,
> > long ago this newsgroup would simply have dissolved
> > into an ordinary battlefield between evangelicals and sci-skeptics.
> > When he barks, when he bites, when he is silent:
> > there is a message there
> > that you [Dana] may have overlooked?
> > --lawrence
>
> [Dana] has almost certainly overlooked something.
hard to see all. I rely on my friends to tell me when something may trip me up
that I did not see.
>
> You mention what is possible. That leaves almost everything else open as
> possibility. All I can say of Rick's doing is that they would exclude other
> possibilities of what would be without Rick's doings.
> What do you think of Rick's doing of taking his bitch out to other
> newsgroups?
That is not the wisest thing to do in any situation.
>
> Shit! - In my own view I would think that Rick manages to much throw out
> the baby with the bathwater. - Or maybe would use such a scattergun as to
> shoot ten chickens for every chicken stealing fox.
> I dunno. maybe everyone else is such wimps that they need a rabid Rick
> to defend (How should I punctuate that to convey ....)
A key.
>
> What is the image? Some group can peacefully quote some Taoist scripture
> at one another and feel safe for sake of a Rick who would rabidly keep them
> safe from all distraction?
Sounds like government to me and that is strange to find the tao group
supporting such things.
>
> This ain't no goddamned bamboo grove so much as a militarily guarded
> encampment. The regulars have discovered what limits they are allowed and
> quietly submit to that.
Does that make me an invading force? Maybe I should put on war paint.
>
> Well shit on my petunia! - Religion has been a very great part of every
> culture. It may well be that every cultures religion has been one to corrupt
> some wiser folks metaphor into some worship of the noise and exclude the
> meaning. -
> But I would think there to be some great meaning in every culture coming
> up with some religion and deities.
> Just that in itself would give cause to consider that the worship and
> belief is a lot of cockamamie bullshit. But there is reality in humans
> predisposition to do that.
> But maybe the folks of this Ng are too weak in themselves to be able to
> exist as a group without some sheep dog or junkyard dog to keep some
> elements at bay?
I can not see what there is to fear of religion or spirituality. If one does
not like it then one simply says so and is done with it. To censor it gives it
the push it needs to invade. To meet it head on sends it in if you want and
away if you want that. To censor it leaves it in place for all time.
>
> Shit! This NGK does not even much impress me as a decent place for
> jumping off point.
It is rare that anyone even stops to help a newbie find information on the
topic.
>
> What is a Taoist but someone who has, so far, failed?
--
Dana Phillips
Tzaddik wrote:
So it be another day. Are you ready to learn?
You should not have crossed the lines you crossed rick. You should have kept things
in this ng and not into other ng's or via email to the real world. When you want
this to end you will have to be the one who asks me to do so. The time for reason
and compassion is long past.
Tzaddik
>
>or via email to the real world.
I don't use E-mail.
Tzaddik
> What I have found on the same subject as provided by http://www.remarq.com/
>
> Description of the ng:
> Taoism - Philosophy
> All aspects of Taoism.
>
> Note that it say all aspects of taoism.
>
That entry was made by a person at a North Carolina
University when he allowed the newsgroup to be added to
his news server. There is no official entry.
Omnivore
> Ruby Troll wrote:
> >
>
> Catholic bullshit and wants me to write about 'ruby' in alt.tv.xena
> Will I have fun?
>
Will not you both?
llow
> lisa
> lkfox
> llow (UDIL
Hark! My name was invoked!
Hi lisa, Lawrence, rick, Omnivore(?) and all. Happy St. Patrick's
day. Etc.
Going back to lurking :*)
*L*.
--
Amendment IX
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "
/** */ Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
lisa
>> llow (UDIL
>Hark! My name was invoked!
>Hi lisa, Lawrence, rick, Omnivore(?) and all. Happy St. Patrick's
>day. Etc.
>Going back to lurking :*)
>*L*.
>--
And to you, *L* :) (is *L* two eyes and a nose??)
Lisa
lday
Oy! Note that there is recognition of the existence of
'spiritual worlds'. Taoism is no more a dry atheistic materialism
than it is a dry theistic belief system.
The 'watercourse way' is wet!
Taken as a contrast of 'creationism' with 'taoism' this may be
true. However Taoism seems more 'taoist' in Shao-yung than
Kuo-hsiang. Kuo may well have been a 'great commentator' on
Taoism, but after all, he represents the hsuan-hsueh school which
raised Confucius above the Taoist sages. At least he was a
thinker, granted. And lucid.
Compare Shao chapter 26:
"The Great Ultimate [ie, tai-chi] is the One. It produces the two
(yin and yang) without engaging in activity. The two (in their
wonderful changes and transformations) constitute the spirit.
Spirit engenders number, number engenders form, and form
engenders concrete things."
To me, this suggests an ongoing process, moment by moment in
current history, and accessible to human investigation (as we
call it now: science) and much in contradistinction to the
'western' creationism, or even Newton, where the 'creator' sets
it in motion, then retires.
However, bottomline-ishly, both Taoism and Neo-Taoism reject an
anthropomorphic 'creator' god. Tao is always here and now, not an
ancient patriarch.
>
>from which all things spring and to which all things return.
who knows by
>which this spontaneous springing-forth occurs. yes, it is
mysterious and most
>wondrous!
>
> If we
>> go through the entire realm of existance, we shall see that
there is
>> nothing, not even the penumbra, that does not transform
itself
>> beyond the phenomenal world. Hence everything creates
itself without
>> any direction of any Creator. Since things create
themselves, they
>> are unconditioned. This is the norm of the universe.' -
>>
>> (Commentary on Chuang Tzu, sec, 2, 2:46-47 - quoted in Bary,
>> Sources of Chinese Tradition.)
Uh, just for the record, (from me old college text:-) the
Chuang-tzu chapters are written by YP Mei, de Bary just edited.
>>
>> . " - end of quote from, "The Elements of Taoism, by Martin
Palmer.
>>
>> also...
>>
>> " At the heart of the Way is the notion that Humanity needs
to be in
>>accord with and flow with the Way. This means recognizing that
we are
>>but part of something much greater and more significant. It is
in
>>contradistiction to the western model of reality which posits
God as the
>>ultimate, but gives Humanity a nearest-to-God role in the
universe. In
>>the West, meaning is given to the rest of creation through
human use
>>of it. This is the reverse of the Chinese and especially the
Taoist
>>idea. " - Martin Palmer, The Elements of
>> Taoism.
Yes! Good point!
>
>Outstanding quotes and commentary. Gets the old engine revving!
Yo Li,
reading this in remarq's condensed format, 'revving' became
'rewing' which absurdly also makes sense.
>
>I see George Cherry wasn't satisfied though. ::sigh::
>
>I don't know about you, but that name, with a few letters mixed
around, looks
>like a name we know and love, rick. It indicates to me that Mr.
Cherry is a
>troll.
geo? a troll? who woulda thunk it!
>
>rgds,
>--li
ah! Taoist philosophy in the grove..
what a breath of fresh air..
--la
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
lday
(...)
> What do you think of Rick's doing of taking his bitch out to
other
>newsgroups?
I don't like the 'method' myself.
And stepping on Datarat's tail seems poor strategy imo.
fwiw.
> Shit! - In my own view I would think that Rick manages to
much throw out
>the baby with the bathwater.
Yo! I just came across this metaphor this morning reading the
huahujing. But trying to refind it, instead came across this
wisdom (by the 'prince'):
"Rigid dogma..should be avoided both in the life of the
individual and by rulers of the masses. Rather than engaging in
worldly conflicts concerning fragments of the whole, disciples
should remain impartial. This can be acheived, not by taking a
neutral or indifferent stance, but by transcending the realm of
duality and embracing natural originalness." (hhc, 60)
- Or maybe would use such a
scattergun as to
>shoot ten chickens for every chicken stealing fox.
> I dunno. maybe everyone else is such wimps that they need a
rabid Rick
>to defend (How should I punctuate that to convey ....)
A heart path? Courage/cowardice? Energy/lassitude?
I get your drift, even tho the 'meaning' evaporated..
> What is the image? Some group can peacefully quote some
Taoist scripture
>at one another and feel safe for sake of a Rick who would
rabidly keep them
>safe from all distraction?
Yesbut, in reality monotheistic evangelism is afoot,
looking diligently for pockets of 'pagans' to convert.
Us in apt, sitting ducks?
> This ain't no goddamned bamboo grove so much as a militarily
guarded
>encampment. The regulars have discovered what limits they are
allowed and
>quietly submit to that.
Here's from commentary on Limitation (Chieh)(#60) in the i-ching:
"..Unlimited possibilities are not suited to man; if they
existed, his life would only dissolve in the boundless. To become
strong, a man's life needs the limitations ordained by duty, and
voluntarily accepted. The individual attains significance as a
free spirit only by surrounding himself with such limitations,
and by determining for himself what his duty is." (W/B, p. 232)
If true for the individual, how much more so for the newsgroup?
> Well shit on my petunia! - Religion has been a very great
part of every
>culture. It may well be that every cultures religion has been
one to corrupt
>some wiser folks metaphor into some worship of the noise and
exclude the
>meaning. -
> But I would think there to be some great meaning in every
culture coming
>up with some religion and deities.
> Just that in itself would give cause to consider that the
worship and
>belief is a lot of cockamamie bullshit. But there is reality in
humans
>predisposition to do that.
I agree.
> But maybe the folks of this Ng are too weak in themselves to
be able to
>exist as a group without some sheep dog or junkyard dog to keep
some
>elements at bay?
> Shit! This NGK does not even much impress me as a decent
place for
>jumping off point.
> What is a Taoist but someone who has, so far, failed?
To fail or suceed implies a goal.
Suppose there is no goal?
>
>
>
>
-l
DoctorNine
O
>[Dana] has almost certainly overlooked something
Immaterial. Dana does his thing, Rick his.
So what? Some tender sensibilities can't take
the vulgarity of a verbal brawl. Does that
mean the world suddenly becomes all quiet and
proper to make them feel comfortable?
What is, is.
Balance is within. Learning to find that, may
mean learning to put away notions of propriety.
O
>You mention what is possible. That leaves almost
>everything else open as possibility
Why is that a problem, in your opinion?
O
>All I can say of Rick's doing is that they would
>exclude other possibilities of what would be without
>Rick's doings
Rick is. Regarding exclusion of other possibilities,
there are many outcomes possible, regardless of who
does what. I thought you liked mathematics. This
seems obvious, no one can force the issue...
More of a 'so what' kind of thing.
O
>What do you think of Rick's doing of taking his
>bitch out to other newsgroups?
What Rick does is what Rick does.
Not my job to figure out if it's OK or not.
He will cause ripples which come back to him
as is indicated. I get the feeling he has
no problem with that, and understands it.
O
>Shit! - In my own view I would think that
>Rick manages to much throw out the baby with
>the bathwater. Or maybe would use such a
>scattergun as to shoot ten chickens for every
>chicken stealing fox
Again, what difference is this to you?
Many parts of the world are unjust...
Why is this injustice too much to bear?
Why object to one injustice and not another?
O
>I dunno. maybe everyone else is such wimps
>that they need a rabid Rick to defend
Hmmm...
What is there to defend?
These are just words on a screen.
Besides, I really don't think La, Li, Ken,
myself, etc., really need any help in
making our point known.
Loud noises, NG flooding, verbal assault,
all the tools of force; they really don't
mean anything. They can't stop anyone
from posting what they want to post. Even
if it bugs one or another.
Even calling folks at their workplace...
Did it stop anything? Of course not.
Only an idiot would think it even could.
O
>What is the image? Some group can peacefully
>quote some Taoist scripture at one another
>and feel safe for sake of a Rick who would
>rabidly keep them safe from all distraction?
I think you are missing the point.
If one wishes to so discuss, the surroundings
don't matter. Those who know, see it all pass.
Rick, Dana, Esther, The Lion of Judea or any
other poster. No one wanted a moderated group,
so this is what is left. It -is-.
Wanting it to be something else is pointless.
Just let it be.
Even an empty group is OK too, you know...
All things pass.
O
>This ain't no goddamned bamboo grove so much
>as a militarily guarded encampment
What you think you see, will become what -is-.
I thought you understood that.
O
>The regulars have discovered what limits they
>are allowed and quietly submit to that
Somehow, I haven't noticed you to be quietly
submitting to anything. Your argument is specious.
Rick submits? Me? Lawrence?
Sometimes it is better to let things pass.
Sometimes not. We each decide.
O
>Well shit on my petunia! - Religion has been a
>very great part of every culture. It may well
>be that every cultures religion has been one to corrupt
>some wiser folks metaphor into some worship of the noise
>and exclude the meaning
Actually, Craig, if someone hadn't cancelled almost
all of my earliest posts to this NG, you would find
that that was a long topic of discussion. It's never
been verboten to discuss those things. Red herring.
O
>But I would think there to be some great meaning
>in every culture coming up with some religion and
>deities
There is another NG devoted to that topic. This
one isn't. Very easy concept. Hard to put into
practice, it seems.
O
>But maybe the folks of this Ng are too weak in
>themselves to be able to exist as a group without
>some sheep dog or junkyard dog to keep some
>elements at bay?
Are you too weak? You are one of those folks.
Do you really think this to be true?
I thought you more perceptive than that.
O
>Shit! This NGK does not even much impress me
>as a decent place for jumping off point
Then jump off...
No one is forcing you to post here.
Why are you doing it, if you are so unimpressed?
O
>What is a Taoist but someone who has,
>so far, failed?
I think you need to work on that definition
a little bit, Craig. You sound kind of jaded.
Carry on.
DoctorNine
Omnivore
.
"DoctorNine" <doctornin...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:2b4c8452...@usw-ex0103-023.remarq.com...
> Craig, you consider
>
> O
> >[Dana] has almost certainly overlooked something
>
> Immaterial. Dana does his thing, Rick his.
> So what? Some tender sensibilities can't take
> the vulgarity of a verbal brawl. Does that
> mean the world suddenly becomes all quiet and
> proper to make them feel comfortable?
Ha ha - What material/immaterial? Rare would be anyone to now have
overlooked something.
I doubt the bugger be omniscient;-}
>
> What is, is.
>
> Balance is within. Learning to find that, may
> mean learning to put away notions of propriety.
May be.
>
> O
> >You mention what is possible. That leaves almost
> >everything else open as possibility
>
> Why is that a problem, in your opinion?
You impose something in your question for me to answer.
Or I just don't understand the question.
Tell me more aobut the problem and maybe I can get back to you about it.
>
> O
> >All I can say of Rick's doing is that they would
> >exclude other possibilities of what would be without
> >Rick's doings
>
> Rick is. Regarding exclusion of other possibilities,
> there are many outcomes possible, regardless of who
> does what. I thought you liked mathematics. This
> seems obvious, no one can force the issue...
>
> More of a 'so what' kind of thing.
My remark was just variation on my being fond of announcing, "If things
were different they just wouldn't be the same."
>
> O
> >What do you think of Rick's doing of taking his
> >bitch out to other newsgroups?
>
> What Rick does is what Rick does.
> Not my job to figure out if it's OK or not.
> He will cause ripples which come back to him
> as is indicated. I get the feeling he has
> no problem with that, and understands it.
Just a question. Didn't expect you to make a whole job of figuring it
out.
>
> O
> >Shit! - In my own view I would think that
> >Rick manages to much throw out the baby with
> >the bathwater. Or maybe would use such a
> >scattergun as to shoot ten chickens for every
> >chicken stealing fox
>
> Again, what difference is this to you?
> Many parts of the world are unjust...
> Why is this injustice too much to bear?
> Why object to one injustice and not another?
Observations must be objections?
I've been enjoying the whole affair.
>
> O
> >I dunno. maybe everyone else is such wimps
> >that they need a rabid Rick to defend
>
> Hmmm...
>
> What is there to defend?
> These are just words on a screen.
I dunno. I'd ask the same question.
>
> Besides, I really don't think La, Li, Ken,
> myself, etc., really need any help in
> making our point known.
Ok
>
> Loud noises, NG flooding, verbal assault,
> all the tools of force; they really don't
> mean anything. They can't stop anyone
> from posting what they want to post. Even
> if it bugs one or another.
Ha ha - Seems to lure them to respond.
Sometimes in life it may seem a sad state of affairs to observe someone
work counter to his stated goals. Here it can be hilarious.
>
> Even calling folks at their workplace...
> Did it stop anything? Of course not.
Hmmmm - When Rick threatened to slander me to my PO I had some thoughts
about the whole affair.
>
> Only an idiot would think it even could.
Guess you passed a judgement there.
>
> O
> >What is the image? Some group can peacefully
> >quote some Taoist scripture at one another
> >and feel safe for sake of a Rick who would
> >rabidly keep them safe from all distraction?
>
> I think you are missing the point.
Not unlikely. But we exchanged above about the missing of sometning.
>
> If one wishes to so discuss, the surroundings
> don't matter. Those who know, see it all pass.
> Rick, Dana, Esther, The Lion of Judea or any
> other poster. No one wanted a moderated group,
> so this is what is left. It -is-.
OK
>
> Wanting it to be something else is pointless.
> Just let it be.
Like you are doing here?
>
> Even an empty group is OK too, you know...
> All things pass.
Yea - Remarked about that myself just recent.
>
> O
> >This ain't no goddamned bamboo grove so much
> >as a militarily guarded encampment
>
> What you think you see, will become what -is-.
> I thought you understood that.
Now you don't think so?
Hell, this is just a monitor on my desk with words sent to it from here
and there.
Or it is this that and whatever metaphorical whatever that one would
make of it.
>
> O
> >The regulars have discovered what limits they
> >are allowed and quietly submit to that
>
> Somehow, I haven't noticed you to be quietly
> submitting to anything. Your argument is specious.
Think so?
>
> Rick submits? Me? Lawrence?
> Sometimes it is better to let things pass.
> Sometimes not. We each decide.
OK
>
> O
> >Well shit on my petunia! - Religion has been a
> >very great part of every culture. It may well
> >be that every cultures religion has been one to corrupt
> >some wiser folks metaphor into some worship of the noise
> >and exclude the meaning
>
> Actually, Craig, if someone hadn't cancelled almost
> all of my earliest posts to this NG, you would find
> that that was a long topic of discussion. It's never
> been verboten to discuss those things. Red herring.
Oh. ??
>
> O
> >But I would think there to be some great meaning
> >in every culture coming up with some religion and
> >deities
>
> There is another NG devoted to that topic. This
> one isn't. Very easy concept. Hard to put into
> practice, it seems.
What? - Some religious group? Might not find a lot of folks wanting Tao
discussed.
I don't care to much discuss religion here anyway. I guess I make
mention of what I wish.
Seems in this public forum that one may enter or refrain as one wishes
from participation in whatever verbal brawl happens to be going on.
>
> O
> >But maybe the folks of this Ng are too weak in
> >themselves to be able to exist as a group without
> >some sheep dog or junkyard dog to keep some
> >elements at bay?
>
> Are you too weak? You are one of those folks.
> Do you really think this to be true?
Maybe I phrased that all improper.
Isn't it a speculation with a question mark at the end and everything?
>
> I thought you more perceptive than that.
Did you? Maybe I do or don't perceive so much as you may think.
>
> O
> >Shit! This NGK does not even much impress me
> >as a decent place for jumping off point
>
> Then jump off...
Ha ha.......
>
> No one is forcing you to post here.
> Why are you doing it, if you are so unimpressed?
Nope. No one is forcing me.
Whatever gave you the idea I was unimpressed?
>
> O
> >What is a Taoist but someone who has,
> >so far, failed?
>
> I think you need to work on that definition
> a little bit, Craig. You sound kind of jaded.
Maybe you should look a little deeper at some things I say.
Was just a little inside joke betwixt myself.
?? - How to describe??......
Mebbe one rowing to the other shore has failed to achieve it at any time
before getting there. ??
Could as well say he is succeeding in the pursuit.
Jokes aren't as funny when they need be explained. - Oh well......
>
> Carry on.
And on and on........;-}
Omnivore
"lday" <ldayNO...@pathcom.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:00a0ef8e...@usw-ex0104-032.remarq.com...
> Craig wrote:
> (...)
>
> > What do you think of Rick's doing of taking his bitch out to
> other
> >newsgroups?
>
> And stepping on Datarat's tail seems poor strategy imo.
> fwiw.
Well, he certainly does it.
Not sure if I got a whole lot of feeling of like or not like. Other than
finding the whole affar amusing I guess I am quite ambivalent as far as
anything actually judgemental.
Wish i were more articulat though. Feedback from folks often seems that
they read a lot of emotional stuff into what I say.
>
> > Shit! - In my own view I would think that Rick manages to
> much throw out
> >the baby with the bathwater.
>
> Yo! I just came across this metaphor this morning reading the
> huahujing. But trying to refind it, instead came across this
> wisdom (by the 'prince'):
> "Rigid dogma..should be avoided both in the life of the
> individual and by rulers of the masses. Rather than engaging in
> worldly conflicts concerning fragments of the whole, disciples
> should remain impartial. This can be acheived, not by taking a
> neutral or indifferent stance, but by transcending the realm of
> duality and embracing natural originalness." (hhc, 60)
Hmmm - Got me to thinking of someone who may not generally be one to
draw attention to self or become involved in a lot.
Perhaps such a one would not post to a newsgroup?
>
>
> - Or maybe would use such a
> scattergun as to
> >shoot ten chickens for every chicken stealing fox.
> > I dunno. maybe everyone else is such wimps that they need a
> rabid Rick
> >to defend (How should I punctuate that to convey ....)
>
> A heart path? Courage/cowardice? Energy/lassitude?
> I get your drift, even tho the 'meaning' evaporated..
I saw some newbie post wanting to know about Taoism the other day.
I thought of suggesting that he not bother to read some goings on until
......
Well, guess that was about as far as I got with the thought.
Above was just poor description of one of many images that wander
through my addled brain from time to time.
>
> > What is the image? Some group can peacefully quote some
> Taoist scripture
> >at one another and feel safe for sake of a Rick who would
> rabidly keep them
> >safe from all distraction?
>
> Yesbut, in reality monotheistic evangelism is afoot,
> looking diligently for pockets of 'pagans' to convert.
> Us in apt, sitting ducks?
Ha ha - Yea, them is certainly pesky buggers with potential to overwhelm
by sheer numbers if given a chance.
Don't even follow what the founder said about spreading "The Word". I
thought that Jesus made it clear enough to leave where not welcomed.
Might be Toist view on when a "gift" becomes as an imposition.
>
> > This ain't no goddamned bamboo grove so much as a militarily
> guarded
> >encampment. The regulars have discovered what limits they are
> allowed and
> >quietly submit to that.
>
> Here's from commentary on Limitation (Chieh)(#60) in the i-ching:
> "..Unlimited possibilities are not suited to man; if they
> existed, his life would only dissolve in the boundless. To become
> strong, a man's life needs the limitations ordained by duty, and
> voluntarily accepted. The individual attains significance as a
> free spirit only by surrounding himself with such limitations,
> and by determining for himself what his duty is." (W/B, p. 232)
> If true for the individual, how much more so for the newsgroup?
Ha - There was a time I was giving a bit of what-for to someone. Pulled
myself up a bit of short for sake of considering that I may be as usurping
Ricks job;-}
>
> > Well shit on my petunia! - Religion has been a very great
> part of every
> >culture. It may well be that every cultures religion has been
> one to corrupt
> >some wiser folks metaphor into some worship of the noise and
> exclude the
> >meaning. -
> > But I would think there to be some great meaning in every
> culture coming
> >up with some religion and deities.
> > Just that in itself would give cause to consider that the
> worship and
> >belief is a lot of cockamamie bullshit. But there is reality in
> humans
> >predisposition to do that.
>
> I agree.
>
> > But maybe the folks of this Ng are too weak in themselves to
> be able to
> >exist as a group without some sheep dog or junkyard dog to keep
> some
> >elements at bay?
> > Shit! This NGK does not even much impress me as a decent
> place for
> >jumping off point.
> > What is a Taoist but someone who has, so far, failed?
>
> To fail or suceed implies a goal.
> Suppose there is no goal?
Then perhaps in the view of some observer who has not attined
goallessness the other has achieved a sort of success?
In some religious thing I read of some serene dude as havaing attained,
"a state of grace." For what impression I had of the affair I would suppose
Taoisms to have some counterpart.
Seems that here and anywhere folks can get into lot of bickering over
the way of wording something or other without seeking to find what was
meant.
Some seem to see this is ineffable and that is ineffable and conclude
that this=that. - Grass is trees kind of logic.
Oh well. I never did seem to communicate all that well with folks
anyway. Seems to be a lot of that going around though.
Goallessness may be worthy enough goal to pursue. ;-} I dunno. I have
not generally been one to find the same things of importance that seem to be
generally regarded as important.
In some idea of "Kill out ambition but work as one who is ambitions. " I
seem to have done better on the first part;-}
(Mebbe I ought scatter more smileys around through my crap? - Wonder if
that would just evoke doubt of my sincerity;-})
Dana Phillips
Omnivore wrote:
> "lday" <ldayNO...@pathcom.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:00a0ef8e...@usw-ex0104-032.remarq.com...
> > Craig wrote:
> > (...)
> >
> > > What do you think of Rick's doing of taking his bitch out to
> > other
> > >newsgroups?
> >
> > I don't like the 'method' myself.
> > And stepping on Datarat's tail seems poor strategy imo.
> > fwiw.
>
> Well, he certainly does it.
> Not sure if I got a whole lot of feeling of like or not like. Other than
> finding the whole affar amusing I guess I am quite ambivalent as far as
> anything actually judgemental.
> Wish i were more articulat though. Feedback from folks often seems that
> they read a lot of emotional stuff into what I say.
You are blunt frequently and that bluntness can smack people into seeing in you
what they felt being so smacked. They usually manage to get over it from what I
have seen.
>
>
> >
> > > Shit! - In my own view I would think that Rick manages to
> > much throw out
> > >the baby with the bathwater.
> >
> > Yo! I just came across this metaphor this morning reading the
> > huahujing. But trying to refind it, instead came across this
> > wisdom (by the 'prince'):
> > "Rigid dogma..should be avoided both in the life of the
> > individual and by rulers of the masses. Rather than engaging in
> > worldly conflicts concerning fragments of the whole, disciples
> > should remain impartial. This can be acheived, not by taking a
> > neutral or indifferent stance, but by transcending the realm of
> > duality and embracing natural originalness." (hhc, 60)
>
> Hmmm - Got me to thinking of someone who may not generally be one to
> draw attention to self or become involved in a lot.
> Perhaps such a one would not post to a newsgroup?
LD said "but by transcending the realm of duality and embracing natural
originalness" and you said, "Perhaps such a one would not post to a newsgroup"
and I say that the person LD describes would not post here or anywhere else. He
would be too busy transcending and embracing and being originalness.
>
>
> >
> >
> > - Or maybe would use such a
> > scattergun as to
> > >shoot ten chickens for every chicken stealing fox.
> > > I dunno. maybe everyone else is such wimps that they need a
> > rabid Rick
> > >to defend (How should I punctuate that to convey ....)
> >
> > A heart path? Courage/cowardice? Energy/lassitude?
> > I get your drift, even tho the 'meaning' evaporated..
>
> I saw some newbie post wanting to know about Taoism the other day.
> I thought of suggesting that he not bother to read some goings on until
> ......
> Well, guess that was about as far as I got with the thought.
> Above was just poor description of one of many images that wander
> through my addled brain from time to time.
I saw the same newbie and felt that he got to see things as they are when one
wakes up in the morning and jumps out of the bed to answer the beating on the
front door. When that door was open we were as naked.
I guess I am ng flooder and planter of weeds.
Be you.
Omnivore
.
"llow (UDIL)" <ll...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8atlas$lkj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...snip
> Hark! My name was invoked!
> Hi lisa, Lawrence, rick, Omnivore(?) and all. Happy St. Patrick's
> day. Etc.
> Going back to lurking :*)
> *L*.
Hi hi you too.
Goodness. I switch to different server and find posts that were not on
my other.
Hell of a note.
lawrence day
Omnivore wrote:
> "lday" <ldayNO...@pathcom.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:00a0ef8e...@usw-ex0104-032.remarq.com...
> > Craig wrote:
> > (...)
> >
> > > What do you think of Rick's doing of taking his bitch out to
> > other
> > >newsgroups?
> >
> > I don't like the 'method' myself.
> > And stepping on Datarat's tail seems poor strategy imo.
> > fwiw.
>
> Well, he certainly does it.
> Not sure if I got a whole lot of feeling of like or not like. Other than
> finding the whole affar amusing I guess I am quite ambivalent as far as
> anything actually judgemental.
> Wish i were more articulat though. Feedback from folks often seems that
> they read a lot of emotional stuff into what I say.
hmm, dunno, I'd sensed you were too wasted/ex-wasted to engage in partialities
much at all.
> > > Shit! - In my own view I would think that Rick manages to
> > much throw out
> > >the baby with the bathwater.
> >
> > Yo! I just came across this metaphor this morning reading the
> > huahujing. But trying to refind it, instead came across this
> > wisdom (by the 'prince'):
> > "Rigid dogma..should be avoided both in the life of the
> > individual and by rulers of the masses. Rather than engaging in
> > worldly conflicts concerning fragments of the whole, disciples
> > should remain impartial. This can be acheived, not by taking a
> > neutral or indifferent stance, but by transcending the realm of
> > duality and embracing natural originalness." (hhc, 60)
>
> Hmmm - Got me to thinking of someone who may not generally be one to
> draw attention to self or become involved in a lot.
> Perhaps such a one would not post to a newsgroup?
On the contrary, such a one would simply enjoy the choice to post or not.
> > - Or maybe would use such a
> > scattergun as to
> > >shoot ten chickens for every chicken stealing fox.
> > > I dunno. maybe everyone else is such wimps that they need a
> > rabid Rick
> > >to defend (How should I punctuate that to convey ....)
> >
> > A heart path? Courage/cowardice? Energy/lassitude?
> > I get your drift, even tho the 'meaning' evaporated..
>
> I saw some newbie post wanting to know about Taoism the other day.
> I thought of suggesting that he not bother to read some goings on until
> ......
> Well, guess that was about as far as I got with the thought.
yeah, but the six dots--that's 'later' eh? or close enough.
>
> Above was just poor description of one of many images that wander
> through my addled brain from time to time.
You could try poetry.
Then it doesn't matter if anyone 'understands'.
> > > What is the image? Some group can peacefully quote some
> > Taoist scripture
> > >at one another and feel safe for sake of a Rick who would
> > rabidly keep them
> > >safe from all distraction?
> >
> > Yesbut, in reality monotheistic evangelism is afoot,
> > looking diligently for pockets of 'pagans' to convert.
> > Us in apt, sitting ducks?
>
> Ha ha - Yea, them is certainly pesky buggers with potential to overwhelm
> by sheer numbers if given a chance.
> Don't even follow what the founder said about spreading "The Word". I
> thought that Jesus made it clear enough to leave where not welcomed.
> Might be Toist view on when a "gift" becomes as an imposition.
definitely true..der grey zone indeed.
> > > This ain't no goddamned bamboo grove so much as a militarily
> > guarded
> > >encampment. The regulars have discovered what limits they are
> > allowed and
> > >quietly submit to that.
> >
> > Here's from commentary on Limitation (Chieh)(#60) in the i-ching:
> > "..Unlimited possibilities are not suited to man; if they
> > existed, his life would only dissolve in the boundless. To become
> > strong, a man's life needs the limitations ordained by duty, and
> > voluntarily accepted. The individual attains significance as a
> > free spirit only by surrounding himself with such limitations,
> > and by determining for himself what his duty is." (W/B, p. 232)
> > If true for the individual, how much more so for the newsgroup?
>
> Ha - There was a time I was giving a bit of what-for to someone. Pulled
> myself up a bit of short for sake of considering that I may be as usurping
> Ricks job;-}
That would amuse him for sure;-)
> > > Well shit on my petunia! - Religion has been a very great
> > part of every
> > >culture. It may well be that every cultures religion has been
> > one to corrupt
> > >some wiser folks metaphor into some worship of the noise and
> > exclude the
> > >meaning. -
that seems normal.
mebbe 'grace'..mebbe 'holy spirit'..some resonance is natural,
but the anthropomorphism, and dualism..that seems distinct,
and without a Taoist parallel.
> Seems that here and anywhere folks can get into lot of bickering over
> the way of wording something or other without seeking to find what was
> meant.
I actually enjoy looking at the same passage in different translations.
It seems to make it richer/deeper. Choosing one interp over another, dunno,
just more mebbemebbe..
>
> Some seem to see this is ineffable and that is ineffable and conclude
> that this=that. - Grass is trees kind of logic.
> Oh well. I never did seem to communicate all that well with folks
> anyway. Seems to be a lot of that going around though.
> Goallessness may be worthy enough goal to pursue. ;-} I dunno. I have
> not generally been one to find the same things of importance that seem to be
> generally regarded as important.
yo! society sucks, a perpetual given ;-)
>
> In some idea of "Kill out ambition but work as one who is ambitions. " I
> seem to have done better on the first part;-}
>
> (Mebbe I ought scatter more smileys around through my crap? - Wonder if
> that would just evoke doubt of my sincerity;-})
I would guess not. More likely it would just clarify your degree of seriousness
re any partic topic. {{%-|}}
-l
Omnivore
>
>
> Omnivore wrote:
>
> > "lday" <ldayNO...@pathcom.com.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:00a0ef8e...@usw-ex0104-032.remarq.com...
> > > Craig wrote:
> > Well, he certainly does it.
> > Not sure if I got a whole lot of feeling of like or not like. Other
than
> > finding the whole affar amusing I guess I am quite ambivalent as far as
> > anything actually judgemental.
> > Wish i were more articulat though. Feedback from folks often seems
that
> > they read a lot of emotional stuff into what I say.
>
> hmm, dunno, I'd sensed you were too wasted/ex-wasted to engage in
partialities
> much at all.
Wasted? - Could you elaborate on that meaning?
snip
> >
> > Hmmm - Got me to thinking of someone who may not generally be one to
> > draw attention to self or become involved in a lot.
> > Perhaps such a one would not post to a newsgroup?
>
> On the contrary, such a one would simply enjoy the choice to post or not.
On the contrary?
When I say perhaps something is there is implication that perhaps there
isn't. Contrary would just imply other way then.
Oh well...... I dunno.
You claim such a one would simply enjoy the choice. I guess you must
know more about such a one than myself.
Again, I dunno. Can only speculate.
snip
> >
> > I saw some newbie post wanting to know about Taoism the other day.
> > I thought of suggesting that he not bother to read some goings on
until
> > ......
> > Well, guess that was about as far as I got with the thought.
>
> yeah, but the six dots--that's 'later' eh? or close enough.
Ha ha - Maybe if I was going to give dumb advice it could as well be to
suggest just joining into some argument and try to figure out what was going
on as things carry on.
>
> >
> > Above was just poor description of one of many images that wander
> > through my addled brain from time to time.
>
> You could try poetry.
> Then it doesn't matter if anyone 'understands'.
Hey! Butter me bread on the top mate
'cause that's how I like me bread.
When I ask for butter on top mate
Don't butter the bottom instead.
Put the jelly on top mate
'cause that's how I likes me jam.
When I ask for jelly on top mate
Please do it if you can.
I'd challenge anyone to find esoteric meaning in that one;-}
snip
>
> > > > Well shit on my petunia! - Religion has been a very great
> > > part of every
> > > >culture. It may well be that every cultures religion has been
> > > one to corrupt
> > > >some wiser folks metaphor into some worship of the noise and
> > > exclude the
> > > >meaning. -
>
> that seems normal.
Unfortunate. But if some of them religions had not come about i wonder
if many of the interesting stories would have endured?
Of course them religions gleefully destroy as much as they can of other
religions stories.
And so it goes......
Not much use to judge good or bad what merely is.
Some folks say, "Shit happens." - I have maintained that it is caused.
Comes to much the same thing though.
Yea - a parallel.
In some of my reading it has seemed that some of them "Holy Saints" got
over their anthropomorpnic god and it came much to something other than some
doting creature with plans and desires and such.
It was at times that may have gotten one tortured and burned, or at
least run out of town or kicked out of the monestary, to have been overly
clear about it though.
Hell, Job is a nice enough story about folks who fancy themselves to
know all of whatefore about God. It is written in a manner that does not
seem to offend folks even now who are much as the ones who were admonished
for bugging Job.
If a parallel were exact it would be tweo things only distinguishable by
being one and another identical or mirror image. If one had Taoistic ideas
and lived in some theocracy I would suppose he would need be quite careful
to couch his writings up in the local jargon or they may be used for
kindling at ones feet. (Mebbe in time of writing Job it was more in vogue
for the locals to pile on the rocks on heritic or anyone who pissed off to
many of the locals?)
>
> > Seems that here and anywhere folks can get into lot of bickering
over
> > the way of wording something or other without seeking to find what was
> > meant.
>
> I actually enjoy looking at the same passage in different translations.
> It seems to make it richer/deeper. Choosing one interp over another,
dunno,
> just more mebbemebbe..
Yea - Like that other thread with "disease" and "suffering" - Just the
carrying on about it does tend to give one opportunity to give it some more
thought of what meaning.
I only got a couple of translations laying around. - Shame I guess that
I only got the one language. - and haven't even mastered it.
>
> >
> > Some seem to see this is ineffable and that is ineffable and
conclude
> > that this=that. - Grass is trees kind of logic.
> > Oh well. I never did seem to communicate all that well with folks
> > anyway. Seems to be a lot of that going around though.
> > Goallessness may be worthy enough goal to pursue. ;-} I dunno. I
have
> > not generally been one to find the same things of importance that seem
to be
> > generally regarded as important.
>
> yo! society sucks, a perpetual given ;-)
Yea - but what else is there?
I have this ambition of being somewhat of a hermit when i am no longer
needed for current condition. - (Maybe by then it will have worn off what
bad name Kacyzinski may have made for hermits;-)
>
> >
> > In some idea of "Kill out ambition but work as one who is ambitions.
" I
> > seem to have done better on the first part;-}
> >
> > (Mebbe I ought scatter more smileys around through my crap? - Wonder
if
> > that would just evoke doubt of my sincerity;-})
>
> I would guess not. More likely it would just clarify your degree of
seriousness
> re any partic topic. {{%-|}}
> -l
I dunno. - I'd probably forget sometime and then folks would think me to
be just adamantly serious.
Is there a smiley that folks would commonly recognize as a grinning
sneer? ;-}
lawrence day
Omnivore wrote:
> .
> "lawrence day" <ld...@pathcom.com> wrote in message
> news:38D31684...@pathcom.com...
> >
> >
> > Omnivore wrote:
> >
> > > "lday" <ldayNO...@pathcom.com.invalid> wrote in message
> > > news:00a0ef8e...@usw-ex0104-032.remarq.com...
> > > > Craig wrote:
> snip
>
> > > Well, he certainly does it.
> > > Not sure if I got a whole lot of feeling of like or not like. Other
> than
> > > finding the whole affar amusing I guess I am quite ambivalent as far as
> > > anything actually judgemental.
> > > Wish i were more articulat though. Feedback from folks often seems
> that
> > > they read a lot of emotional stuff into what I say.
> >
> > hmm, dunno, I'd sensed you were too wasted/ex-wasted to engage in
> partialities
> > much at all.
>
> Wasted? - Could you elaborate on that meaning?
My memory may be faulty--wouldn't be the first time;-) but
didn't you mention burning out a lot of brain circuitry with meth?
The 'partiality' part, which Taoism doesn't want anyway, seems absent.
Just as I see it. It is not a put-down, just old hippie slang from the 60's..
eg, dialog:
me to Rompin' Ronnie, all ga-ga: "Geez! Bob Dylan stayed on your farm!
What was he like?"
Rompin' Ronnie: "It was hard to tell. He was way wasted."
> snip
>
> > >
> > > Hmmm - Got me to thinking of someone who may not generally be one to
> > > draw attention to self or become involved in a lot.
> > > Perhaps such a one would not post to a newsgroup?
> >
> > On the contrary, such a one would simply enjoy the choice to post or not.
>
> On the contrary?
Well, I mean 'no rule' one way or the other.
>
> When I say perhaps something is there is implication that perhaps there
> isn't. Contrary would just imply other way then.
oic, ok then, i agree.
> Oh well...... I dunno.
> You claim such a one would simply enjoy the choice. I guess you must
> know more about such a one than myself.
In real life, I'm shy and introverted.
Drawing a lot of attention makes me uneasy.
>
> Again, I dunno. Can only speculate.
>
> snip
>
> > >
> > > I saw some newbie post wanting to know about Taoism the other day.
> > > I thought of suggesting that he not bother to read some goings on
> until
> > > ......
> > > Well, guess that was about as far as I got with the thought.
> >
> > yeah, but the six dots--that's 'later' eh? or close enough.
>
> Ha ha - Maybe if I was going to give dumb advice it could as well be to
> suggest just joining into some argument and try to figure out what was going
> on as things carry on.
Aha! See, you wisely chose not to post it.
Maybe some folks deserve simple straight answers and other deserve to be
confused. Certainly that recent hurricane that passed through would be quite
confusing to your average newby, eh.
> > > Above was just poor description of one of many images that wander
> > > through my addled brain from time to time.
> >
> > You could try poetry.
> > Then it doesn't matter if anyone 'understands'.
>
> Hey! Butter me bread on the top mate
> 'cause that's how I like me bread.
> When I ask for butter on top mate
> Don't butter the bottom instead.
>
> Put the jelly on top mate
> 'cause that's how I likes me jam.
> When I ask for jelly on top mate
> Please do it if you can.
>
> I'd challenge anyone to find esoteric meaning in that one;-}
But it is absolutely true! Beyond a shadow of a doubt.
And, instantly understandable.
> snip
>
> >
> > > > > Well shit on my petunia! - Religion has been a very great
> > > > part of every
> > > > >culture. It may well be that every cultures religion has been
> > > > one to corrupt
> > > > >some wiser folks metaphor into some worship of the noise and
> > > > exclude the
> > > > >meaning. -
> >
> > that seems normal.
>
> Unfortunate. But if some of them religions had not come about i wonder
> if many of the interesting stories would have endured?
re-ligare, it binds togethor. Such 'religious' speculation never particularly
bothered me, but I didn't get the standard xian brainwashing, so I don't judge
those who came to Taoist philosophy precisely to escape it. If we can discuss
'spiritual' aspects without drifting into personal belief systems, well, that
seems a positive to me.
>
> Of course them religions gleefully destroy as much as they can of other
> religions stories.
Monotheism is competitive. 'Eastern' religio-philosophies look more like
'psychologies'; certainly they never 'fought it out' like Europe's endless
wars of belief systems. such sucked totally.
There's lots of 'Saints' by now. I don't know too much about them except
St. Lawrence, St. Francis, and St. John-of-the-Cross. Even then I look at them
as historical figures rather than religious icons. St. J's poetry sounds much
like Lao-tzu.
St. F talked to animals and birds--way Taoist. & St. L joked while getting
tortured to death on the grill, very daojiao in my understanding, fwiw.
If discussions re such stuck entirely to the comparatives, I mean the parallels
and resonances, then I doubt there would be a problem. But it is a slippery
slope into proselytizing etc.
>
> It was at times that may have gotten one tortured and burned, or at
> least run out of town or kicked out of the monestary, to have been overly
> clear about it though.
> Hell, Job is a nice enough story about folks who fancy themselves to
> know all of whatefore about God. It is written in a manner that does not
> seem to offend folks even now who are much as the ones who were admonished
> for bugging Job.
Oy! If you want a trip, hunt up Carl Jung's 'Answer to Job' and consider that it
was so controversial in the 30's that it was banned in America!
>
> If a parallel were exact it would be two things only distinguishable by
> being one and another identical or mirror image. If one had Taoistic ideas
> and lived in some theocracy I would suppose he would need be quite careful
> to couch his writings up in the local jargon or they may be used for
> kindling at ones feet. (Mebbe in time of writing Job it was more in vogue
> for the locals to pile on the rocks on heritic or anyone who pissed off to
> many of the locals?)
Taoists, being holists, can recognize that they are Tao.
But saying 'I am God' got some Sufi philosopher
executed, and only a few hundred years ago.
Enforced dualism seems nuts to me.
> > > Seems that here and anywhere folks can get into lot of bickering
> over
> > > the way of wording something or other without seeking to find what was
> > > meant.
> >
> > I actually enjoy looking at the same passage in different translations.
> > It seems to make it richer/deeper. Choosing one interp over another,
> dunno,
> > just more mebbemebbe..
>
> Yea - Like that other thread with "disease" and "suffering" - Just the
> carrying on about it does tend to give one opportunity to give it some more
> thought of what meaning.
Yo, indeed.
>
> I only got a couple of translations laying around. - Shame I guess that
> I only got the one language. - and haven't even mastered it.
>
> >
> > >
> > > Some seem to see this is ineffable and that is ineffable and
> conclude
> > > that this=that. - Grass is trees kind of logic.
> > > Oh well. I never did seem to communicate all that well with folks
> > > anyway. Seems to be a lot of that going around though.
> > > Goallessness may be worthy enough goal to pursue. ;-} I dunno. I
> have
> > > not generally been one to find the same things of importance that seem
> to be
> > > generally regarded as important.
The 'general regard' as society, eh.
> > yo! society sucks, a perpetual given ;-)
>
> Yea - but what else is there?
There's nature, neither human nor social.
And all the recorded words of the dead dudes..;-)
> I have this ambition of being somewhat of a hermit when i am no longer
> needed for current condition. - (Maybe by then it will have worn off what
> bad name Kacyzinski may have made for hermits;-)
I'll bet Kacyzinski will look different in the history books a hundred years
from now,
than how he looks now. Not an easy case at all in my opinion.
>
> >
> > >
> > > In some idea of "Kill out ambition but work as one who is ambitions.
> " I
> > > seem to have done better on the first part;-}
> > >
> > > (Mebbe I ought scatter more smileys around through my crap? - Wonder
> if
> > > that would just evoke doubt of my sincerity;-})
> >
> > I would guess not. More likely it would just clarify your degree of
> seriousness
> > re any partic topic. {{%-|}}
> > -l
>
> I dunno. - I'd probably forget sometime and then folks would think me to
> be just adamantly serious.
> Is there a smiley that folks would commonly recognize as a grinning
> sneer? ;-}
Our resident but vacationing icon-grandmaster jay will be back tomorrow,
and may have an answer to this one.
rgds,
--lawrence
Omnivore
Said i'd used the stuff.
If I mentioned seeming cloud on my head that was something that seemed
to come about a year into prison that concentration seemed to go plumb to
shit.
The way I would use meth when not involved with the "culture" seemed to
addle my head less than caffine.
That was way occasional use though. It is quite easy to become
'dependant'. Too much of any good thing makes of it not a good thing
anymore.
Not much of a topic for here though I guess.
>
> > snip
> >
> > > >
> > > > Hmmm - Got me to thinking of someone who may not generally be
one to
> > > > draw attention to self or become involved in a lot.
> > > > Perhaps such a one would not post to a newsgroup?
> > >
> > > On the contrary, such a one would simply enjoy the choice to post or
not.
> >
> > On the contrary?
>
> Well, I mean 'no rule' one way or the other.
I suppose.
I suppose anyone has as much choice to post or not.
Whatever.
>
> >
> > When I say perhaps something is there is implication that perhaps
there
> > isn't. Contrary would just imply other way then.
>
> oic, ok then, i agree.
Mebbe I need change some of my lack of writing style. Or at least pay
better attention to how folks interpret much of what I say.
I dunno if much use though. Believe it or not I often refrain from
saying this and that for sake of it seeming that I would just have to
explain what I really meant and then what I really meant by that.
Mebbe I been too much traumatized by my ex reinterpreting whatever I say
into something else. - Then in the prison rehab I would insist that I just
dealt drugs and didn't involve in other sort of crime. Just got told, "That
is denial" - Well, of course it is! - Better to just be quiet in the face
of folks who are just going to respond with a conditioned response I guess.
>
> > Oh well...... I dunno.
> > You claim such a one would simply enjoy the choice. I guess you must
> > know more about such a one than myself.
>
> In real life, I'm shy and introverted.
> Drawing a lot of attention makes me uneasy.
Ha ha - might have some things in common. I can overbear some of the
overbearing folks well enough though. But the peacable way is more my habit.
>
> >
> > Again, I dunno. Can only speculate.
> >
> > snip
> >
> > > >
> > > > I saw some newbie post wanting to know about Taoism the other
day.
> > > > I thought of suggesting that he not bother to read some goings
on
> > until
> > > > ......
> > > > Well, guess that was about as far as I got with the thought.
> > >
> > > yeah, but the six dots--that's 'later' eh? or close enough.
> >
> > Ha ha - Maybe if I was going to give dumb advice it could as well be
to
> > suggest just joining into some argument and try to figure out what was
going
> > on as things carry on.
>
> Aha! See, you wisely chose not to post it.
> Maybe some folks deserve simple straight answers and other deserve to be
> confused. Certainly that recent hurricane that passed through would be
quite
> confusing to your average newby, eh.
Yea - I guess I started to give my thought to describing what of that he
may avoid reading until he got better handle of what it was all aobut.
Then just had thoughts of this and that: - Ha ha - I think back to my
first posting to the group. What I found sporty may have just sent me with
tail tucked at some time or other in my life. - I dunno.
Well, I sit here with lot of thoughts that could turn into a very long
writing. Then I have thought it would come to lot of pointless work.
>
> > > > Above was just poor description of one of many images that
wander
> > > > through my addled brain from time to time.
> > >
> > > You could try poetry.
> > > Then it doesn't matter if anyone 'understands'.
> >
> > Hey! Butter me bread on the top mate
> > 'cause that's how I like me bread.
> > When I ask for butter on top mate
> > Don't butter the bottom instead.
> >
> > Put the jelly on top mate
> > 'cause that's how I likes me jam.
> > When I ask for jelly on top mate
> > Please do it if you can.
> >
> > I'd challenge anyone to find esoteric meaning in that one;-}
>
> But it is absolutely true! Beyond a shadow of a doubt.
> And, instantly understandable.
I have some recallection of the time I did that one.
Lot of folks about were of a mind to do things their way for my benefit
for my own good.
I was quite jolly happy riding down the road on my Sportster at the
moment of doing that silly composition.
>
> > snip
> >
> > >
> > > > > > Well shit on my petunia! - Religion has been a very great
> > > > > part of every
> > > > > >culture. It may well be that every cultures religion has been
> > > > > one to corrupt
> > > > > >some wiser folks metaphor into some worship of the noise and
> > > > > exclude the
> > > > > >meaning. -
> > >
> > > that seems normal.
> >
> > Unfortunate. But if some of them religions had not come about i
wonder
> > if many of the interesting stories would have endured?
>
> re-ligare, it binds togethor. Such 'religious' speculation never
particularly
> bothered me, but I didn't get the standard xian brainwashing, so I don't
judge
> those who came to Taoist philosophy precisely to escape it. If we can
discuss
> 'spiritual' aspects without drifting into personal belief systems, well,
that
> seems a positive to me.
Yea - I guess I have had a sore spot at Xianity. Think I was evolving
into a Taoist sort of direction before discovering TTC. - Then it did come
to my looking back at the Bible for some things that seemed to spark a
familirity.
It was Jung's "Answer to Job." That inspired me to take some more look
at that Bible stuff though.
That was lot of years ago.
>
> >
> > Of course them religions gleefully destroy as much as they can of
other
> > religions stories.
>
> Monotheism is competitive. 'Eastern' religio-philosophies look more like
> 'psychologies'; certainly they never 'fought it out' like Europe's endless
> wars of belief systems. such sucked totally.
An LSD inspiration from long ago was of "War of Idealogies." It was
something of Idealogies being some greater real(?) and us merely tools for
them to work it out through.
Then thought of the more something diminished its opposite the more it
diminished itself.
-I dunno memories of LSD thoughts are vague even when fresh.
But this may be place to try to hash over concepts/ideas that one never
found decent words to articulate. - Or just get into arguments about
whatever.
snip
> > >
> > > mebbe 'grace'..mebbe 'holy spirit'..some resonance is natural,
> > > but the anthropomorphism, and dualism..that seems distinct,
> > > and without a Taoist parallel.
> >
> > Yea - a parallel.
> > In some of my reading it has seemed that some of them "Holy Saints"
got
> > over their anthropomorpnic god and it came much to something other than
some
> > doting creature with plans and desires and such.
>
> There's lots of 'Saints' by now. I don't know too much about them except
> St. Lawrence, St. Francis, and St. John-of-the-Cross. Even then I look at
them
> as historical figures rather than religious icons. St. J's poetry sounds
much
> like Lao-tzu.
> St. F talked to animals and birds--way Taoist. & St. L joked while getting
> tortured to death on the grill, very daojiao in my understanding, fwiw.
> If discussions re such stuck entirely to the comparatives, I mean the
parallels
> and resonances, then I doubt there would be a problem. But it is a
slippery
> slope into proselytizing etc.
Yea - Even when not confronted with some determined to save my soul I
can distract myself well enough.
It wouls seem most often that the sould saver is not so much concerned
with my soul as with some more base motive which he would deny of course.
But there is a lot to that. It is not uncommon that one may have some
'revelation' and then enthusiastically go out to enlighten others and not
notice that some he would enlighten have considered his newfound thing to be
old hat. - Or some such.
Then folks tend to feel more secure in what they believe if they can get
others to say they believe the same. Proselytizing from that would amount to
one being driven to spread his own insecurity?
Was a time that myself would try to make some 'convert' to Tao view.
Think that got to seeming somewhat absurd pretty quick though.
>
> >
> > It was at times that may have gotten one tortured and burned, or at
> > least run out of town or kicked out of the monestary, to have been
overly
> > clear about it though.
> > Hell, Job is a nice enough story about folks who fancy themselves to
> > know all of whatefore about God. It is written in a manner that does not
> > seem to offend folks even now who are much as the ones who were
admonished
> > for bugging Job.
>
> Oy! If you want a trip, hunt up Carl Jung's 'Answer to Job' and consider
that it
> was so controversial in the 30's that it was banned in America!
I didn't know that. - I just ran onto it in Junior College days when I
became a bit of a Jung fan.
A favorite sport of mine at the time was to argue with them Campus
Crusade for Christ folks.
No shit. There I was:
New to the JC and fresh out of the Army. I was sitting alone on the
campus lawn and a couple of amiable seeming fellow approached to get
aquainted.
The conversation cam to them telling me some of their thoughts and
quickly started seeming a bit of rude lack of giving consideration to my
expressed thoughts.
I had not heard of "Witnessing" at that time.
Oh well. They pretty much made Campus Crusaders fair game for me. I
guess as aquired quite some popularity with campus "Freaks" I became more of
a target for them. Got the impression that some may have thought converting
me would influence what seemed my following. ??
Oh well. Proselytizers certainly do make nuisance of selves.
Rude bastards too. Don't even seem to have much respect for what Jesus
said of how to act if they were not well recieved.
>
> >
> > If a parallel were exact it would be two things only distinguishable
by
> > being one and another identical or mirror image. If one had Taoistic
ideas
> > and lived in some theocracy I would suppose he would need be quite
careful
> > to couch his writings up in the local jargon or they may be used for
> > kindling at ones feet. (Mebbe in time of writing Job it was more in
vogue
> > for the locals to pile on the rocks on heritic or anyone who pissed off
to
> > many of the locals?)
>
> Taoists, being holists, can recognize that they are Tao.
> But saying 'I am God' got some Sufi philosopher
> executed, and only a few hundred years ago.
> Enforced dualism seems nuts to me.
Jesus said something to his followers, "Ye are gods." - Interesting. -
Wonder how much lost in translation?
>
> > > > Seems that here and anywhere folks can get into lot of bickering
> > over
> > > > the way of wording something or other without seeking to find what
was
> > > > meant.
> > >
> > > I actually enjoy looking at the same passage in different
translations.
> > > It seems to make it richer/deeper. Choosing one interp over another,
> > dunno,
> > > just more mebbemebbe..
> >
> > Yea - Like that other thread with "disease" and "suffering" - Just
the
> > carrying on about it does tend to give one opportunity to give it some
more
> > thought of what meaning.
>
> Yo, indeed.
Heard in prison folks to say, "It's all good."
Wondered if there be some Taoists who never heard of Tao?
(Thinking of one who said that wh had just been kicked in the head off
his feet.)
>
> >
> > I only got a couple of translations laying around. - Shame I guess
that
> > I only got the one language. - and haven't even mastered it.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Some seem to see this is ineffable and that is ineffable and
> > conclude
> > > > that this=that. - Grass is trees kind of logic.
> > > > Oh well. I never did seem to communicate all that well with
folks
> > > > anyway. Seems to be a lot of that going around though.
> > > > Goallessness may be worthy enough goal to pursue. ;-} I dunno. I
> > have
> > > > not generally been one to find the same things of importance that
seem
> > to be
> > > > generally regarded as important.
>
> The 'general regard' as society, eh.
Folks seem to think stylish clothes and cars and such to be important.
Folks seem to think it important to be greatly concerned and angry about
something that goes on halfway around the planet or in the life of someone
else. Then if I don't share in their emotion of the whole affair they direct
that emotion at me as much as for my not sharing their opinion.
>
> > > yo! society sucks, a perpetual given ;-)
> >
> > Yea - but what else is there?
Aren't a lot of them there sages hermits?
Wonder how many of them image of old man on top the mt. went there for
sake of not wanting folks to come ask them silly questions aobut the meaning
of life? ;-}
Or does a Sage need be known and useful to travelers to be worthy of the
title?
But muself would just be a cantankeros shit who would go off for sake of
not having been all that successful at socialization.
But I can think of a lot of responses to such question as, "What is the
meaning of life." - Most would probably be insulting to the asker.;-}
>
> There's nature, neither human nor social.
> And all the recorded words of the dead dudes..;-)
Yup. I would suppose a lot of that there "enlightenment" comes in spite
of or independant of any sort of pursuit.
>
> > I have this ambition of being somewhat of a hermit when i am no
longer
> > needed for current condition. - (Maybe by then it will have worn off
what
> > bad name Kacyzinski may have made for hermits;-)
>
> I'll bet Kacyzinski will look different in the history books a hundred
years
> from now,
> than how he looks now. Not an easy case at all in my opinion.
Actually I thought a lot of his observations were well enough. What he
seemed to think of trying to do about it seemed misguided. Thinking that
anything could even be done about it seems misguided. So, obsessing over it
would seem a hell of drain of energy.
Oh well....
>
>snip
> >
> > I dunno. - I'd probably forget sometime and then folks would think
me to
> > be just adamantly serious.
> > Is there a smiley that folks would commonly recognize as a grinning
> > sneer? ;-}
>
> Our resident but vacationing icon-grandmaster jay will be back tomorrow,
> and may have an answer to this one.
> rgds,
> --lawrence
Yea - I saw some indication of soon to return.
Jaybuzin0000
>Craig had wondered:
[...]
>> Is there a smiley that folks would commonly recognize as a grinning
>> sneer? ;-}
the devilish ;-> might point to it.
perhaps w\an acrimonious acronym twooo
>Our resident but vacationing icon-grandmaster jay will be back tomorrow,
>and may have an answer to this one.
Eye hasn't done much with icons.
Verbal artistry is m'ore of Teh, pour me.
Leaving for Yueh, ...
passing bottomless
while arriving yesterday
{:-])))
Jaybuzin0000
>lawrence proposed:
[...]
>> > > > Perhaps such a one would not post to a newsgroup?
Real Taoists simply fish for fish
and perhaps talk turkey with sea turtles
along with an happy well-frog at times.
>> > > On the contrary, such a one would simply enjoy the choice to post or
>not.
>> >
>> > On the contrary?
>>
>> Well, I mean 'no rule' one way or the other.
>
> I suppose.
The ruler of no rule is extensive.
Measuring out vast reaches
the chih is Ever n'ear.
> I suppose anyone has as much choice to post or not.
> Whatever.
When it was time to go, Lao-tzu left.
When Yin Hsi said it was right to write,
Lao-tzu stopped at the gate and planted.
Do flowers have a choice?
The fruit of Tao falls on occasion,
at times eaten, at times fermenting.
anybody seen the jug?
{:-])))
It's me it's me, Earnest T.
Jaybuzin0000 wrote:
> Craig surmised:
> >lawrence proposed:
> [...]
>
> >> > > > Perhaps such a one would not post to a newsgroup?
>
> Real Taoists simply fish for fish
> and perhaps talk turkey with sea turtles
> along with an happy well-frog at times.
Would they troll for trolls since they fish for fish?
Would they talk tao with the meek who wish to inherit the earth?
Or would they simply sit in the shade?
>
>
> >> > > On the contrary, such a one would simply enjoy the choice to post or
> >not.
> >> >
> >> > On the contrary?
> >>
> >> Well, I mean 'no rule' one way or the other.
> >
> > I suppose.
>
> The ruler of no rule is extensive.
> Measuring out vast reaches
> the chih is Ever n'ear.
>
> > I suppose anyone has as much choice to post or not.
> > Whatever.
>
> When it was time to go, Lao-tzu left.
> When Yin Hsi said it was right to write,
> Lao-tzu stopped at the gate and planted.
>
> Do flowers have a choice?
Do weeds?
Can one tell the difference at all times?
Should one?
>
> The fruit of Tao falls on occasion,
> at times eaten, at times fermenting.
Doctor won't like it if I drink the wine. Too much sugar for us diabetics.
>
>
> anybody seen the jug?
> {:-])))
--
How do you do Nothing?" asked Pooh. "Well, it's when people call out
at you just as you're going off to do it, `What are you going to do,
Christopher Robin?' and you say, `Oh, nothing' and then you go and do
it. It means just going along, listening to all the things you can't
hear, and not bothering."
Omnivore
.
"Jaybuzin0000" <jaybuz...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20000319074049...@ng-fj1.news.cs.com...
> Craig surmised:
> >lawrence proposed:
> [...]
>
>
> and perhaps talk turkey with sea turtles
> along with an happy well-frog at times.
Sitting fishing by a lake once I took my line out of the water lest the
serenity of the moment be disturbed.
After awhile I threw it back again.
>
> >> > > On the contrary, such a one would simply enjoy the choice to post
or
> >not.
> >> >
> >> > On the contrary?
> >>
> >> Well, I mean 'no rule' one way or the other.
> >
> > I suppose.
>
> The ruler of no rule is extensive.
> Measuring out vast reaches
> the chih is Ever n'ear.
Perhaps where i use 'suppose' I often more mean "I speculate"?
>
> > I suppose anyone has as much choice to post or not.
> > Whatever.
>
> When it was time to go, Lao-tzu left.
> When Yin Hsi said it was right to write,
> Lao-tzu stopped at the gate and planted.
Was it a toll gate?
>
> Do flowers have a choice?
> The fruit of Tao falls on occasion,
> at times eaten, at times fermenting.
Left some scribblings in his wake for later comers to peruse or argue
about.
>
> anybody seen the jug?
Is that it there? Seems to have no bottom.
> {:-])))
>
lday
a grinning
>>> sneer? ;-}
>
>perhaps w\an acrimonious acronym twooo
>
tomorrow,
>>and may have an answer to this one.
>
Welcome back Smiley Dude!
Actually I mistypoed a tad: 'icon-grandmaster'
should be 'emoticon-grandmaster'.
>Verbal artistry is m'ore of Teh, pour me.
>
>Leaving for Yueh, ...
>
>passing bottomless
>while arriving yesterday
>{:-])))<--
Sample emoticon artistry: { = raised eyebrows;
: = eyes; - = knows; ] = goofy grin, [perhaps plastered?];
))) = big beard vibration due to chuckling.
But yer all time classic imo:
The emoticon for Cheshire cats:
:-) -) )
>
>
-l
Omnivore
.
"It's me it's me, Earnest T." <BassI...@mayberryhillbilly.com> wrote in
message news:38D4DBCD...@mayberryhillbilly.com...
>
snip
> Doctor won't like it if I drink the wine. Too much sugar for us
diabetics.
Does being diabetic in actuality follow into virutuality?
Chicken Little
Omnivore wrote:
> .
> "It's me it's me, Earnest T." <BassI...@mayberryhillbilly.com> wrote in
> message news:38D4DBCD...@mayberryhillbilly.com...
> >
> snip
>
> > Doctor won't like it if I drink the wine. Too much sugar for us
> diabetics.
>
> Does being diabetic in actuality follow into virutuality?
hell if I know.
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > anybody seen the jug?
> > > {:-])))
> >
> > --
> > How do you do Nothing?" asked Pooh. "Well, it's when people call out
> > at you just as you're going off to do it, `What are you going to do,
> > Christopher Robin?' and you say, `Oh, nothing' and then you go and do
> > it. It means just going along, listening to all the things you can't
> > hear, and not bothering."
> >
> >
> >
--
When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things,
you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you
is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people
looking at it.
---Winnie the Pooh
DoctorNine
It seems things are as they are, quite nicely
indeed, just at the moment of your return from
a little walk about, and turn around the block.
Was the quietude,
And silent interlude,
Refreshing?
You say:
JB
>Real Taoists simply fish for fish
>and perhaps talk turkey with sea turtles
>along with an happy well-frog at times.
Where you find it, methinks.
JB
>The ruler of no rule is extensive.
>Measuring out vast reaches
>the chih is Ever n'ear.
I hear rumors.
JB
>When it was time to go, Lao-tzu left.
>When Yin Hsi said it was right to write,
>Lao-tzu stopped at the gate and planted.
Thought you might not come back.
Noticed your net cast in the buddhist groups.
Many happy fish...
Some odd Tang and Mahasanti units play in
most strange ways therein (and on?)
JB
>Do flowers have a choice?
Dunno... They do bloom...
I wonder what the significance may be...
I really haven't been able to guess.
Such an energy bespeaks deep purpose.
It will out, or not.
No matter.
JB
>The fruit of Tao falls on occasion,
>at times eaten, at times fermenting.
Left to lie, what springs therefrom?
Perhaps flowers of a different sort.
Is this rocky ground, old friend?
JB
>anybody seen the jug?
We kept a new supply,
Of the old stuff,
Just for you.
(Proffering a swig...)
D9
be.rock
> Would they talk tao with the meek who wish to inherit the earth?
> Or would they simply sit in the shade?
trolling is fishing
very crude though
eye likes to fly
Dana Phillips
"be.rock" wrote:
No so. Nothing like a cold wind in the fall or winter, big powder puff
clouds in the sky, and no other boats to bounce your ass around. Musky
can be had which are great fighters and big bluegill if you know where.
We also have stripe and rock which can be a big thrill.
>
>
> eye likes to fly
I would rather wade and cast in a river.
--
Close your eyes and you will see clearly
Cease to listen and you will hear truth
Be silent and your heart will sing
Seek no contact and you will find union
Be still and you will move forward on the tide of spirit
Be gentle and you will need no strength
Be patient and you will achieve all things
Be humble and you will remain entire
Jaybuzin0000
>Jay wrote:
>>Craig wrote:
[...s]
>> >> > > > Perhaps such a one would not post to a newsgroup?
>>
>> Real Taoists simply fish for fish
>> and perhaps talk turkey with sea turtles
>> along with an happy well-frog at times.
>
>Would they troll for trolls since they fish for fish?
Since I'm not really a Real Taoist
my pov is only a croissant edge of that domain.
Assuming Chuang Tzu to be a real One,
and his buddy Hui Shih to be anOther,
I'd say, yes. The happy-troll-fish is not unlike
a white horse in the dessert of no-name.
>Would they talk tao with the meek who wish to inherit the earth?
two-me; a meek-One, with delusions,
is a sort of hyperbolic tame-idio-plumacy.
The meek may indeed inherit the earth
but I doubt that would be their intent\desire.
Never-the-less, assuming Lieh Tzu was a
Real Taoist, yes. He spoke with anybody,
even with shamans, and had so many visitors
in his house it kinda drove him nuts.
>Or would they simply sit in the shade?
Chuang Tzu enjoyed shade and mud.
Some folks might say that neither of those,
whom I mentioned, were Real Taoists
and share instead that Confucius
was the Really-Real One.
His behavior is strange,
as portrayed by the CT.
>> > I suppose anyone has as much choice to post or not.
>> Do flowers have a choice?
>
>Do weeds?
The idea that those who know don't say,
or that a Real Taoist wouldn't be a Usenetter,
reminds me that Lao Tzu did spoke of things.
He planted flowers at Yin Hsi's request.
It's been said that the nature of Tao is to yield.
Flowers and weeds generally are not ascribed
or attributed with having the power of choice.
Kuo Hsiang (a neo-mebbe-real-taoist)
suggests, to me, that there really isn't a choice.
As Doc had mentioned; the farmer who son
found the wild horses held the reins of mebbe.
>Can one tell the difference at all times?
Chuang Tzu, to me, suggests that a Real One
might be able to tell the differences _and_
by holding to the center is able to respond
effortlessly to the circumference of infinite
good or bad. _And_ at any point along the rim
any other point can be said to be good
or bad depending upon the frame of reference.
>Should one?
shoulding reminds me of paperwork.
shouldering burdens is not an easy task.
taoism tends to carry its own weight
without exerting effort. it fl'oats.
when shoulding,
the weights of others are compiled.
such a direct-ion reminds me of knowledge.
those who seek tao go the other way.
eye hesitates two-say what flowers should do,
or that weeds ought-not grow thither;
cuz things wither on their own
without any interventions
shoulds or oughts.
>> The fruit of Tao falls on occasion,
>> at times eaten, at times fermenting.
>
>Doctor won't like it if I drink the wine. Too much sugar for us diabetics.
Perhaps our new Sugarless Wine,
less filling, tastes great (like chicken!).
Now available in several assortmintys.
It's a candy and breathless taking.
-at a concession stand
next two teh wu; n'ear yu
{:-])))
Dana Phillips
Jaybuzin0000 wrote:
> Dana wrote:
> >Jay wrote:
> >>Craig wrote:
> [...s]
>
> >> >> > > > Perhaps such a one would not post to a newsgroup?
> >>
> >> Real Taoists simply fish for fish
> >> and perhaps talk turkey with sea turtles
> >> along with an happy well-frog at times.
> >
> >Would they troll for trolls since they fish for fish?
>
> Since I'm not really a Real Taoist
> my pov is only a croissant edge of that domain.
> Assuming Chuang Tzu to be a real One,
> and his buddy Hui Shih to be anOther,
> I'd say, yes. The happy-troll-fish is not unlike
> a white horse in the dessert of no-name.
So they would so what is there to do. I have read little of the old ones and
will one day get around to it.
>
>
> >Would they talk tao with the meek who wish to inherit the earth?
>
> two-me; a meek-One, with delusions,
> is a sort of hyperbolic tame-idio-plumacy.
> The meek may indeed inherit the earth
> but I doubt that would be their intent\desire.
Could not be as then they would not be meek.
>
> Never-the-less, assuming Lieh Tzu was a
> Real Taoist, yes. He spoke with anybody,
> even with shamans, and had so many visitors
> in his house it kinda drove him nuts.
So from this any who wish to visit the ng should. There must be something to
having an open house since an old one did it long ago. Wonder if he had a maid
to clean up the mess or if it was self serve all the way.
>
>
> >Or would they simply sit in the shade?
>
> Chuang Tzu enjoyed shade and mud.
> Some folks might say that neither of those,
> whom I mentioned, were Real Taoists
> and share instead that Confucius
> was the Really-Real One.
> His behavior is strange,
> as portrayed by the CT.
Most of what I have read by the confusion man has been lost in the cobwebs.
>
>
> >> > I suppose anyone has as much choice to post or not.
>
> >> Do flowers have a choice?
> >
> >Do weeds?
>
> The idea that those who know don't say,
> or that a Real Taoist wouldn't be a Usenetter,
> reminds me that Lao Tzu did spoke of things.
> He planted flowers at Yin Hsi's request.
> It's been said that the nature of Tao is to yield.
> Flowers and weeds generally are not ascribed
> or attributed with having the power of choice.
Only the gardener has that choice.
>
>
> Kuo Hsiang (a neo-mebbe-real-taoist)
> suggests, to me, that there really isn't a choice.
> As Doc had mentioned; the farmer who son
> found the wild horses held the reins of mebbe.
Think I read that tale on a www .
>
>
> >Can one tell the difference at all times?
>
> Chuang Tzu, to me, suggests that a Real One
> might be able to tell the differences _and_
> by holding to the center is able to respond
> effortlessly to the circumference of infinite
> good or bad. _And_ at any point along the rim
> any other point can be said to be good
> or bad depending upon the frame of reference.
Many weeds look really nice till later on when they take over the place and some
flowers look really ugly until that minute or two in which they invoke the
rainbow.
>
>
> >Should one?
>
> shoulding reminds me of paperwork.
> shouldering burdens is not an easy task.
> taoism tends to carry its own weight
> without exerting effort. it fl'oats.
>
> when shoulding,
> the weights of others are compiled.
> such a direct-ion reminds me of knowledge.
> those who seek tao go the other way.
>
> eye hesitates two-say what flowers should do,
> or that weeds ought-not grow thither;
> cuz things wither on their own
> without any interventions
> shoulds or oughts.
Correct on the way of plants. I am of like mind and thought such several days
ago.
On should's my pal Albert Ellis has said a few things. He does not like
should'ves and must'ves and I think refers to them as musterbation.
>
>
> >> The fruit of Tao falls on occasion,
> >> at times eaten, at times fermenting.
> >
> >Doctor won't like it if I drink the wine. Too much sugar for us diabetics.
>
> Perhaps our new Sugarless Wine,
> less filling, tastes great (like chicken!).
> Now available in several assortmintys.
> It's a candy and breathless taking.
That I will take. Thank you for thinking of us who have the less than perfect
body.
>
>
> -at a concession stand
> next two teh wu; n'ear yu
> {:-])))
--
lday
>>Do flowers have a choice?
>
>Dunno... They do bloom...
>I wonder what the significance may be...
>
>I really haven't been able to guess.
>Such an energy bespeaks deep purpose.
>It will out, or not.
>No matter.
>
>JB
>>at times eaten, at times fermenting.
>
>Left to lie, what springs therefrom?
>Perhaps flowers of a different sort.
LD:
Flowers are so cool as all the poets know.
They are flow-ers, and Dylan Thomas wrote,
"The force that through the green fuse drives the flower
Drives my green age."
Asked by a convention of 1950's psychologists to explain
the different world views of East and West
DT Suzuki started by comparing
two poems addressing a flower.
Basho in a 17-syllable haiku {well in Japanese it has 17:Yoku
mireba/
Nazuna hana saku/ Kakine kana.}:
"When I look carefully
I see the nazuna blooming
By the hedge!"
This seemed perceptive, holistic, synthetic, and 'ecological'.
Also I might add, brief--as few words as necessary.
Suzuki contrasted this with Tennyson:
"Flower in the crannied wall,
I pluck you out of the crannies;--
Hold you here, root and all, in my hand,
Little flower--but if I could understand
What you are, root and all, and all in all,
I should know what God and man is."
This view is conceptual, active and analytical,
it seperates the flower from its environment--
the flower's own destiny is irrelevent.
Flowers are deeply embedded in Zen.
While Mr. Herrigal was off taking his archery lessons,
Mrs. Herrigal was studying floral arrangement.
She says: "Arranging flowers is no pastime and is not intended
for
distraction. You must collect yourself beforehand and begin early
in the morning by performing all your activities without fuss,
without haste, and giving them the expression of inner balance
and harmony."
(Zen and the Art of Floral Arrangement, p. 18)
This reminds me of Japanese busynessmen spending records millions
of dollars to acquire van Gogh's Sunflowers painting.
The Zen infatuation with flowers goes right back to
the famous 'flower sutra'. Unlike other sutras this one had no
words.
Buddha held up a flower confusing everyone except Kasyapa who
smiled broadly and so became the first 'patriarch' of
Dhyana/Chan/Zen.
To translate into emoticon:
@-----:-)
The story may not be true, but as John Wu says
it doesn't matter,
because it captures the 'very spirit of Zen:
a flower that smiles evoking a smile that flowers.'
Tibetan Buddhism loved lotuses. Born in the dark mud, rooted
there,
they break into liquid water, then more up and up,
and blossom in the air. The wisdom of this
[solid-->liquid--.gas?]
is called
'the jewel in the lotus/ om mani padme hum'.
The idea, as I understand it, is to do
your blossoming in the most ethereal realm available.
Last summer I visited a friend who lives on a farm.
His sunflowers were 7 or 8 feet tall.
Like radar dish receivers the giant flowers
turn their faces to aim at the Sun,
drinking in starshine. Way cool. And predictable.
Lao-tzu figured divination itself [as predictability] was
the 'flower of the Tao'. Yet he preferred the fruit to the
flower.
flowing,
--lawrence
DoctorNine
JB
>>>Do flowers have a choice?
D9
>>Dunno... They do bloom...
>>I wonder what the significance may be...
>>
>>I really haven't been able to guess.
>>Such an energy bespeaks deep purpose.
>>It will out, or not.
>>No matter.
JB
>>>The fruit of Tao falls on occasion,
>>>at times eaten, at times fermenting.
D9
>>Left to lie, what springs therefrom?
>>Perhaps flowers of a different sort.
>>(...)
La
I wonder what 'most ethereal realms' I have available...
I'm thinking of a field of blue. Just a touch of green to
the palette. In the center a hot, yellow ball of light...
Cool, spring green carpets stretch away...
What!
It's right outside my window!
(Time to go, let me turn this thing off.)
DoctorNine
Dana Phillips
Jaybuzin0000 wrote:
> Dana wrote:
> >Jay wrote:
> >>Dana asked:
> [...s]
>
> >> >Would they talk tao with the meek who wish to inherit the earth?
>
> >> The meek may indeed inherit the earth
> >> but I doubt that would be their intent\desire.
> >
> >Could not be as then they would not be meek.
>
> Then to talk to such an One on a white-horse
> wood\p'u be an interesting block to uncarve.
A horse of any old color would do as I am fond of horses. They won't let me
play with sharp objects so I would have to call on you for the carving.
>
>
> >> Never-the-less, assuming Lieh Tzu was a
> >> Real Taoist, yes. He spoke with anybody,
> >> even with shamans, and had so many visitors
> >> in his house it kinda drove him nuts.
> >
> >So from this any who wish to visit the ng should.
>
> Cook Ting carves a mean ox
> and Men-shen are not easy to get around.
> Wei Ch'ang is even less popular and Kuan-ti
> is opposed to many. Fu-mo ta-ti looks small
> to a One of your stature. Chang Lang's leg
> often makes the kitchen quite warm.
Sounds like a gang to watch out for and it would be best to know they were there
in advance.
>
>
> >There must be something to
> >having an open house since an old one did it long ago.
>
> "Shortly after this,
> Po Hun Wu Jen went to see Lieh Tzu's home
> and found the doorway full of the shoes
> of many visitors. Po Hun Wu Jen stood
> facing north, with his staff in his hand
> and his chin resting upon it,
> until his chin became creased. He stood there
> for some time, then he went away without a word.
> The porter at the gate went in to Lieh Tzu
> and told him about this. Lieh Tzu grabbed his shoes
> and ran barefooted after Po Hun Wu Jen,
> catching up with him at the outer gate,
> where he said, 'Sire, having come here,
> are you now going to go away without giving me
> some medicine?'
> 'It is pointless,' he replied. 'I said to you
> that people would crowd around you, and so they have.
> It is not your fault that they come, but you cannot
> keep them away, so what use was my warning? ... ... ...
> Chuang Tzu said, 'To know Tao is easy,
> not to speak about it is hard. Knowing and not saying,
> this is to aspire to the Heavenly. Knowing and saying,
> this is to be subject to the human element. In the past
> people paid attention to the Heavenly, not to the human.'"
Thank you. I am always looking for such things and will see if it will fit in a
corner of my brain. As I took a pain killer earlier it may be wiser to not
trust the old head and I will mark it to save. Do not forget that many of us
are "new" to this in here and any links are references you can give are
appreciated much.
>
> [-from Palmer's CT, ch 32.]
>
> >Wonder if he had a maid
> >to clean up the mess or if it was self serve all the way.
>
> Apparently he had help at the gate.
> but in the end he did the dishes.
Glad I have kids and no longer need do them. Was a good time to reflect though.
>
>
> >Many weeds look really nice till later on when they take over the place and
> >some
> >flowers look really ugly until that minute or two in which they invoke the
> >rainbow.
>
> some stars burn slow and steady
> while others shoot across the sky
>
> All along the watchtower, ... ...
> two riders were approaching
> and the wind began to howl.
>
> -from times
> two-times too
> times beyond times-
> in the grove
Omnivore
> Craig wrote:
> >Jay wrote:
> >>lawrence wrote:
> [...s]
>
> >> When it was time to go, Lao-tzu left.
> >> When Yin Hsi said it was right to write,
> >> Lao-tzu stopped at the gate and planted.
> >
>
> It's pretty narrow. If the warden was obstinate
> an ox-cart would probably be detained.
>
> Even just riding upon an ox
> or perhaps walking on foot
> an eighty year old man
> might not feel much
> like fighting over words.
Asked, even without a please, I guess it was in his power to do.
Wonder if it came to that for sake of him not having a damned dollar?
Or it may have been that he was just finally asked to do what he'd had
some inclination anyway.
Or,..... ??
>
> >> Do flowers have a choice?
> >> The fruit of Tao falls on occasion,
> >> at times eaten, at times fermenting.
> >
> > Left some scribblings in his wake for later comers to peruse or argue
> >about.
>
> It's the nature of Tao to yield
> to the Man at times.
And I suppose he was not in a ruch anyway.
>
> >> anybody seen the jug?
> >
> > Is that it there?
>
> yes!
> eye has found it.
>
> >Seems to have no bottom.
>
> -indeed.
> passing around
> many embers glowing
Wishing for a drink to end all thirsts.
> {:-])))
>
Jaybuzin0000
>Jay wrote:
>>lawrence wrote:
[...s]
>> When it was time to go, Lao-tzu left.
>> When Yin Hsi said it was right to write,
>> Lao-tzu stopped at the gate and planted.
>
> Was it a toll gate?
Red Pine has a picture of Hanku Pass.
It's pretty narrow. If the warden was obstinate
an ox-cart would probably be detained.
Even just riding upon an ox
or perhaps walking on foot
an eighty year old man
might not feel much
like fighting over words.
>> Do flowers have a choice?
>> The fruit of Tao falls on occasion,
>> at times eaten, at times fermenting.
>
> Left some scribblings in his wake for later comers to peruse or argue
>about.
It's the nature of Tao to yield
to the Man at times.
>> anybody seen the jug?
>
> Is that it there?
yes!
eye has found it.
>Seems to have no bottom.
-indeed.
passing around
many embers glowing
{:-])))
Jaybuzin0000
>Jay wrote:
[...s]
>Yo, JB. Welcome back.
thanx.
and thanx to others too
who have extended their greetings.
>Was the quietude,
>And silent interlude,
>Refreshing?
It's always a trip
to watch mys'elf watching mySelf watching.
>Thought you might not come back.
I never left off reading.
>Noticed your net cast in the buddhist groups.
>Many happy fish...
Complete And Total
Fucking Idiot Sans Hat!
>Some odd Tang and Mahasanti units play in
>most strange ways therein (and on?)
It's the DT that catches my interest.
He's the best under-bridger in the mud, imso.
I imagined sum precepts of trolldom
and mebbe kneads two-return th'air
too-sea if'n responses are in order.
One of the gents I conversed with
seamed to be a very nice guy!
>JB
>>The fruit of Tao falls on occasion,
>>at times eaten, at times fermenting.
>
>Left to lie, what springs therefrom?
Drunken dirt of another colour?
>Perhaps flowers of a different sort.
perhaps.
I've seen some very strange Ones.
>Is this rocky ground, old friend?
the way is b'road, and Ever-smooth.
I wood enjoy uncarving a bit of p'u
when teh times ripen into such.
>Of the old stuff,
{:-])))
Jaybuzin0000
>Jay wrote:
>>Dana asked:
[...s]
>> >Would they talk tao with the meek who wish to inherit the earth?
>> The meek may indeed inherit the earth
>> but I doubt that would be their intent\desire.
>
>Could not be as then they would not be meek.
Then to talk to such an One on a white-horse
wood\p'u be an interesting block to uncarve.
>> Never-the-less, assuming Lieh Tzu was a
>> Real Taoist, yes. He spoke with anybody,
>> even with shamans, and had so many visitors
>> in his house it kinda drove him nuts.
>
>So from this any who wish to visit the ng should.
Cook Ting carves a mean ox
and Men-shen are not easy to get around.
Wei Ch'ang is even less popular and Kuan-ti
is opposed to many. Fu-mo ta-ti looks small
to a One of your stature. Chang Lang's leg
often makes the kitchen quite warm.
>There must be something to
[-from Palmer's CT, ch 32.]
>Wonder if he had a maid
>to clean up the mess or if it was self serve all the way.
Apparently he had help at the gate.
but in the end he did the dishes.
>Many weeds look really nice till later on when they take over the place and
Jaybuzin0000
>Jay wrote:
>> Dana wrote:
>> >Jay wrote:
>> >>Dana asked:
[...s]
>> >> >Would they talk tao with ...
>> >So from this any who wish to visit the ng should.
lurking is an axiom of netiquette.
>> Cook Ting carves a mean ox
>> and Men-shen are not easy to get around.
>> Wei Ch'ang is even less popular and Kuan-ti
>> is opposed to many. Fu-mo ta-ti looks small
>> to a One of your stature. Chang Lang's leg
>> often makes the kitchen quite warm.
>Sounds like a gang to watch out for and it would be best to know they were
>there
>in advance.
which is why lurking is axiomatic.
>> >There must be something to
>> >having an open house since an old one did it long ago.
>>
>> "Shortly after this,
>> Po Hun Wu Jen went to see Lieh Tzu's home
>> and found the doorway full of the shoes ...
>Do not forget that many of us
>are "new" to this in here and any links are references you can give are
>appreciated much.
Interpretations will probably always be many.
And the end of knowledge is nowhair in site.
Those who seek dao do less and less.
>> >Wonder if he had a maid
>> >to clean up the mess or if it was self serve all the way.
>>
>> Apparently he had help at the gate.
>> but in the end he did the dishes.
>
>Glad I have kids and no longer need do them. Was a good time to reflect
>though.
re: Lieh Tzu and the sorcerer;
"From that time on ...
He cooked for his wife and did the housework.
He took care of the pigs and was kind to everyone
and everything. He distanced himself from world matters
and freed himself from the entanglement of truths and lies.
He was no longer a piece of carved jade
but an unhewn block of wood. In the midst
of the muddy world, he remained true to himself,
and in simplicity and stillness he spent the rest of his life."
[-from Wong's _Lieh Tzu_]
DoctorNine
D9
>>Was the quietude,
>>And silent interlude,
>>Refreshing?
JB
>It's always a trip
>to watch mys'elf watching mySelf watching.
Watching the spring sproing, a la Lawrence.
D9
>>Thought you might not come back.
JB
>I never left off reading.
What is there to see.
D9
>>Noticed your net cast in the buddhist groups.
>>Many happy fish...
>>Some odd Tang and Mahasanti units play in
>>most strange ways therein (and on?)
JB
>It's the DT that catches my interest.
>He's the best under-bridger in the mud, imso.
>I imagined sum precepts of trolldom
>and mebbe kneads two-return th'air
>too-sea if'n responses are in order.
>One of the gents I conversed with
>seamed to be a very nice guy!
Lots of folks there are wise guys...
I generally find Ned worth a listen.
DT always has a point to poke, and
will arouse my interest. Theravad
has good sense, generally, imo.
I don't cotton to the eightfold path
dogma, but much of their wisdom is
dorectly translatable into Dao-speak.
D9
>>Is this rocky ground, old friend?
JB
>the way is b'road, and Ever-smooth.
>
>I wood enjoy uncarving a bit of p'u
>when teh times ripen into such.
Well; there it is!
Cheers!
D9
Dana Phillips
Jaybuzin0000 wrote:
> Dana wrote:
> >Jay wrote:
> >> Dana wrote:
> >> >Jay wrote:
> >> >>Dana asked:
> [...s]
>
> >> >> >Would they talk tao with ...
>
> >> >So from this any who wish to visit the ng should.
>
> lurking is an axiom of netiquette.
I do not visit polite society often as you can see by my news address.
Liked that ending. One day I will have to do that reading I have been putting
off for far too long.
>
>
> >Be gentle and you will need no strength
> >Be patient and you will achieve all things
> >Be humble and you will remain entire
--
Close your eyes and you will see clearly
Cease to listen and you will hear truth
Be silent and your heart will sing
Seek no contact and you will find union
Be still and you will move forward on the tide of spirit
Miller Jew
jaybuz...@cs.com ((Yo!)Jaybuzin0000) wrote:
Craig surmised:
lawrence proposed:
[...]
>Perhaps such a one would not post to a newsgroup?
J
>Real Taoists simply fish for fish
>and perhaps talk turkey with sea turtles
>along with an happy well-frog at times.
Cool.
And 'Spring-clean'? along side'em?
:::ahh.. ah-chiouu::: ;-)
. .
>>On the contrary, such a one would simply enjoy the choice to
>>post or not.
>>
>On the contrary?
Prolly in this case,
like what (CT's) Cook Ting would do.
>...
L
>Well, I mean 'no rule' one way or the other.
Yes; for understanding the situation one introspects,
rather than extroverts, to allow the former to 'way' over.
J
>The ruler
Yes, the Ruler on h/er Throne: our True Nature/Self.
J
>of no rule
Which was once our personality/ego/vehicle ruling,
since transformed autonomous to our True Self's rule.
J
>is extensive.
>Measuring out vast reaches
>the chih is Ever n'ear.
Indeed. What measures out introspectively is found vast.
As vast as our phenomenal life measures to fit it.
>I suppose anyone has as much choice to post or not.
>Whatever.
J
>When it was time to go, Lao-tzu left.
>When Yin Hsi said it was right to write,
>Lao-tzu stopped at the gate and planted.
Yes. From their taoist realization of the one-to-one
identification of spirit-as-matter's height, they became clearly
aware matter mattered. By such expansion, as these 'Lao-tzu's'
soared-out, they wrote'em-in too.
J
>Do flowers have a choice?
>
>The fruit of Tao falls on occasion,
>at times eaten, at times fermenting.
Tao always falls Tao
to flower Tao's Te,
'til Te blooms Tao.
J
>anybody seen the jug?
Ahh.. a Toast to Life!
Welcome back(s!) J :-)
>{:-])))
-Zhou
DoctorNine
JB
>>Real Taoists simply fish for fish
>>and perhaps talk turkey with sea turtles
>>along with an happy well-frog at times.
Z
>Cool.
>And 'Spring-clean'? along side'em?
>:::ahh.. ah-chiouu::: ;-)
The return of favorable winds make for
pleasant sailing...
La
>>Well, I mean 'no rule' one way or the other.
Z
>Yes; for understanding the situation one introspects,
>rather than extroverts, to allow the former to 'way'
>over.
DP was looking for an esoteric cup of tea?
JB
>>The ruler...
Z
>Yes, the Ruler on h/er Throne: our True Nature/Self.
Xin
JB
>>of no rule...
Z
>Which was once our personality/ego/vehicle ruling,
>since transformed autonomous to our True Self's rule.
Click
JB
>>is extensive.
>>Measuring out vast reaches
>>the chih is Ever n'ear.
Z
>Indeed. What measures out introspectively is found
>vast.As vast as our phenomenal life measures to fit
>it.
JB
>>When it was time to go, Lao-tzu left.
>>When Yin Hsi said it was right to write,
>>Lao-tzu stopped at the gate and planted.
Z
>Yes. From their taoist realization of the
>one-to-one identification of spirit-as-matter's
>height, they became clearly aware matter mattered.
>By such expansion, as these 'Lao-tzu's'
>soared-out, they wrote'em-in too.
Within/without
JB
>>Do flowers have a choice?
>>
>>The fruit of Tao falls on occasion,
>>at times eaten, at times fermenting.
Z
>Tao always falls Tao
>to flower Tao's Te,
>'til Te blooms Tao.
JB
>>anybody seen the jug?
Z
>Ahh.. a Toast to Life!
>
>Welcome back(s!) J :-)
To you both. (Cheers)
Jaybuzin0000
>Jay wrote:
[...s]
>D9
>>>Thought you might not come back.
>
>JB
>>I never left off reading.
>
>What is there to see.
the what
is a garden full of words
de-lighting the ears
>Cheers!
{:-])))
John Timothy Hall
> JB
>>>Do flowers have a choice?
>>
>>Dunno... They do bloom...
>>I wonder what the significance may be...
>>
>>I really haven't been able to guess.
>>Such an energy bespeaks deep purpose.
>>It will out, or not.
>>No matter.
>>
>>JB
>>>at times eaten, at times fermenting.
>>
>>Left to lie, what springs therefrom?
> LD:
Well, I must say I'm with Lao-tzu on this one, although on occasion I eat
flowers(I especially love wild violet flowers in the spring!) Divination has
a religious root: Divine; and as we are all aware, this is alt. PHILOSOPHY.
taoism, eh?
But the bottom line for me is: A Flower Does Not Talk.
Mute as a Lotus,
John-in Ottawa
--
Omnivore
"John Timothy Hall" <ed...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:8ba7es$2eo$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
> lday (ldayNO...@pathcom.com.invalid) writes:
snip
> But the bottom line for me is: A Flower Does Not Talk.
If you cannot hear then others cannot speak?
Brings image of ostrich with head buried and feeling quite invisible.
lday
figured divination itself [as predictability] was the 'flower of
the Tao'. Yet
he preferred the fruit to the flower.
flowing,
--lawrence
Well, I must say I'm with Lao-tzu on this one, although on
occasion I eat flowers(I especially love wild violet flowers in
the spring!)
Divination has a religious root: Divine; and as we are all aware,
this is alt. PHILOSOPHY. taoism, eh?
But the bottom line for me is: A Flower Does Not Talk.
{{"Yo! Buzzing bee! Come here and I will give you something sweet
and nutritious if you'll just carry these pollen bits on your
hairy legs over to yonder fragrant flower.." said the flower.
"Buzz! What a deal!" said the bee, "Now I can make honey!"
And they all lived happily ever after.:}}
Mute as a Lotus,
John-in Ottawa
hmm, well, re. 'divination', it is a western word; yinyangjia in
pinyin
is clearly a jia/chia. Even the historian Ssu-ma T'an did not
classify yinyangjia as a jiao/religion, although he did
distinguish it from his own form of Taoism. His view was based on
his current observations at the popular level, rather like
judging psychology by watching the
'Psychic Hotline' infomercials.
He wrote:
"It has been my observation that the yin-yang school in its
theories puts strong emphasis upon omens and teaches a great many
things to be shunned and tabooed. But in its work of arranging
correctly the all-important succession of the four seasons it
fills an essential need..The Taoists teach men to live a life of
spiritual concentration and to act in harmony with the unseen.
Their teaching is all-sufficient and embraces all things. Its
method consists in following the seasonal order of the yin-yang
school...It modifies its position with the times and responds to
the changes which come about in the world. In establishing
customs and practices and administering affairs it does nothing
that is not appropriate to the time and place.." (Sources of
Chinese Tradition, ed. de Bary, p. 190)
The primary observation of yinyangjia is the cyclical nature of
phenomena. It can be divided into binary (taichi), quarters
(seasonal), fifths (wu-hsing), eighths (pa kua) or 64th's
(I-ching). Thus it becomes a basis for foretelling, as simply as
Spring follows Winter. The 'West' may use religious words like
'divination' or 'augury' to translate foretelling, but weathermen
also foretell, and are hardly priests.
--lawrence
Jaybuzin0000
[...]
>The 'West' may use religious words like
>'divination' or 'augury' to translate foretelling, but weathermen
>also foretell, and are hardly priests.
qian zhi zhe,
dao zhi hua er yu zhi shi.
person with feet on a boat
monkey-mind very bright
at-times in balance
wear'in-times knot
>The primary observation of yinyangjia is the cyclical nature of
>phenomena.
that which waxes, wanes.
can you hold to yer croissant soul?
>The Taoists teach men to live a life of
>spiritual concentration and to act in harmony with the unseen.
>Their teaching is all-sufficient and embraces all things.
tso-wang
>Its
>method consists in following the seasonal order of the yin-yang
>school...
guessing eye
gots two-disagree
with the Ssu-ma-ster.
{:-])))
lday
Oh good, so do I!
He reminds me of the narrator in 'Rocky Horror'.
.serious, but out to lunch..
John Timothy Hall
> .
> "John Timothy Hall" <ed...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
> news:8ba7es$2eo$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
>> lday (ldayNO...@pathcom.com.invalid) writes:
> snip
>
>
> Brings image of ostrich with head buried and feeling quite invisible.
Mute means unabled to speak, deaf means one cannot hear. Perhaps you
should reread the whole post and rethink your position, eh. Just because
a flower does not speak doesn't mean it can't convey a profound message.
John-in Ottawa
--
John Timothy Hall
> ..drinking in starshine. Way cool. And predictable. Lao-tzu
> figured divination itself [as predictability] was the 'flower of
> the Tao'. Yet
> he preferred the fruit to the flower.
> flowing,
> --lawrence
>
> Well, I must say I'm with Lao-tzu on this one, although on
> occasion I eat flowers(I especially love wild violet flowers in
> the spring!)
> Divination has a religious root: Divine; and as we are all aware,
> this is alt. PHILOSOPHY. taoism, eh?
>
> and nutritious if you'll just carry these pollen bits on your
> hairy legs over to yonder fragrant flower.." said the flower.
> "Buzz! What a deal!" said the bee, "Now I can make honey!"
> And they all lived happily ever after.:}}
Anthropomorphism; plain and simple.
> Mute as a Lotus,
>
> John-in Ottawa
>
> hmm, well, re. 'divination', it is a western word; yinyangjia in
> pinyin
> is clearly a jia/chia. Even the historian Ssu-ma T'an did not
> classify yinyangjia as a jiao/religion, although he did
> distinguish it from his own form of Taoism. His view was based on
> his current observations at the popular level, rather like
> judging psychology by watching the
> 'Psychic Hotline' infomercials.
> He wrote:
> "It has been my observation that the yin-yang school in its
> theories puts strong emphasis upon omens and teaches a great many
> things to be shunned and tabooed. But in its work of arranging
> correctly the all-important succession of the four seasons it
> fills an essential need..The Taoists teach men to live a life of
> spiritual concentration and to act in harmony with the unseen.
> Their teaching is all-sufficient and embraces all things. Its
> method consists in following the seasonal order of the yin-yang
> school...It modifies its position with the times and responds to
> the changes which come about in the world. In establishing
> customs and practices and administering affairs it does nothing
> that is not appropriate to the time and place.." (Sources of
> Chinese Tradition, ed. de Bary, p. 190)
> The primary observation of yinyangjia is the cyclical nature of
> phenomena. It can be divided into binary (taichi), quarters
> (seasonal), fifths (wu-hsing), eighths (pa kua) or 64th's
> (I-ching). Thus it becomes a basis for foretelling, as simply as
> Spring follows Winter. The 'West' may use religious words like
> 'divination' or 'augury' to translate foretelling, but weathermen
> also foretell, and are hardly priests.
>
> --lawrence
"Read your horoscope and cheat your fate." -Joe South in "The Games People
Play", a song...we're in the West Lawrence, and you wrote the word
"divination". One reason I prefer Dharma Practice is that it has nothing to
do with God, gods or the super-natural. "Yes I do believe in your hexagram,
but could you tell me how they all knew the plan. Did you trip or slip on
their gifts? It was just a con, you knew it. Why di'ju it? I been hidin' in
the dawn. Tarred and feathered yeah, thistled and thorned. One or the other
he kindly warned. Now you look out your window tell me: what do you see? I
see a golden calf pointing back at me." The gullibility of a large percentage
of the human race never ceases to amaze me. People are tricked because they
want to be tricked.
The total harmony of the Tao and the Dharma embodied in Ch'an, to me, is
the perfection of wisdom. Try some violet flowers when they come up, you'll
like them!
John-in Ottawa(not so mute today)
--
Omnivore
> "Omnivore" (sun...@SPAMOFFpacbell.net) writes:
> > .
> > "John Timothy Hall" <ed...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
> > news:8ba7es$2eo$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
> >> lday (ldayNO...@pathcom.com.invalid) writes:
> > snip
> >
> >
> > Brings image of ostrich with head buried and feeling quite
invisible.
>
>
> Mute means unabled to speak, deaf means one cannot hear. Perhaps you
> should reread the whole post and rethink your position, eh. Just because
> a flower does not speak doesn't mean it can't convey a profound message.
>
> John-in Ottawa
What the hell are you talking about? You argue at me with different way
of saying same thing?
Mebbe you ought do your own advice. ?
John Timothy Hall
> .
> "John Timothy Hall" <ed...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
> news:8bcs8s$6rb$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
>> "Omnivore" (sun...@SPAMOFFpacbell.net) writes:
>> > .
>> > "John Timothy Hall" <ed...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
>> > news:8ba7es$2eo$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
>> >> lday (ldayNO...@pathcom.com.invalid) writes:
>> > snip
>> >
>> >> But the bottom line for me is: A Flower Does Not Talk.
>> >
>> > If you cannot hear then others cannot speak?
>> > Brings image of ostrich with head buried and feeling quite
> invisible.
>>
>>
>> Mute means unabled to speak, deaf means one cannot hear. Perhaps you
>> should reread the whole post and rethink your position, eh. Just because
>> a flower does not speak doesn't mean it can't convey a profound message.
>>
>> John-in Ottawa
>
> What the hell are you talking about? You argue at me with different way
> of saying same thing?
> Mebbe you ought do your own advice. ?
OK
--
lday
ed...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Timothy Hall) wrote:
>lday (ldayNO...@pathcom.com.invalid) writes:
>> ..drinking in starshine. Way cool. And predictable. Lao-tzu
>> figured divination itself [as predictability] was the 'flower
of
>> the Tao'. Yet
>> he preferred the fruit to the flower.
>> flowing,
>> --lawrence
>>
>> Well, I must say I'm with Lao-tzu on this one, although on
>> occasion I eat flowers(I especially love wild violet flowers
in
>> the spring!)
I looked carefully for a while this morning,
but no fowers seemed up yet in the Humber Valley.
our last snow: barely a week ago!
>> Divination has a religious root: Divine; and as we are all
aware,
>> this is alt. PHILOSOPHY. taoism, eh?
;-)
>> But the bottom line for me is: A Flower Does Not Talk.
>>
>> {{"Yo! Buzzing bee! Come here and I will give you something
sweet
>> and nutritious if you'll just carry these pollen bits on your
>> hairy legs over to yonder fragrant flower.." said the flower.
>> "Buzz! What a deal!" said the bee, "Now I can make honey!"
>> And they all lived happily ever after.:}}
>
> Anthropomorphism; plain and simple.
All cartoons are Taoist..simplified stuff..
>> Mute as a Lotus,
>>
>> John-in Ottawa
>>
>> hmm, well, re. 'divination', it is a western word; yinyangjia
in
>> pinyin
>> is clearly a jia/chia. Even the historian Ssu-ma T'an did not
>> classify yinyangjia as a jiao/religion, although he did
>> distinguish it from his own form of Taoism.
He lacked cosmogony.
> "Read your horoscope<--
Yer basic newspaper 'horoscope' column is to astrology
as the 'Psychic Hotline' is to psychic phenomena.
i and cheat your fate." -Joe South in
"The Games People
>Play", a song...we're in the West Lawrence,
Face facts, we're 'North', Canadians eh..
hmm, relatively, ok..
and you wrote the
word
>"divination". One reason I prefer Dharma Practice is that it has
nothing to
>do with God, gods or the super-natural.
Yo, indeed, no 'whims of the gods' variable present.)
"Yes I do believe in
your hexagram,
>but could you tell me how they all knew the plan. Did you trip
or slip on
>their gifts? It was just a con, you knew it. Why di'ju it? I
been hidin' in
>the dawn. Tarred and feathered yeah, thistled and thorned. One
or the other
>he kindly warned. Now you look out your window tell me: what do
you see? I
>see a golden calf pointing back at me."
hum, this suggests a back-and-forth dubiousity betwixt te unist
and dualist systems..?
> The gullibility of a
large percentage
>of the human race never ceases to amaze me. People are tricked
because they
>want to be tricked.
Yo, 'people' always suck, thus civilisation..
but 'subtract'! eh..
> The total harmony of the Tao and the Dharma embodied in
Ch'an, to me, is
>the perfection of wisdom.
agreed, & btw Tung-shan and Ts'ao-shan were Way familiar with the
I-ching encodings.
{Quotes available, if requested,but te dog is sniffin'..eh..
-l
Try some violet flowers when they come
up, you'll
>like them!
>
>
>John-in Ottawa(not so mute today)
>
>
>--
>
>
>
>
lday
jaybuz...@cs.com (Jaybuzin0000) wrote:
>John wrote:
>[...]
>
>> But the bottom line for me is: A Flower Does Not Talk.
>
>eye may find mys'elf going for a walk
>passing the flowers seaming to be screaming
>their purples and yellows so bright.
Longitude, latitude, 'twould interest
te Canards..
--lawrence
mu
Jaybuzin0000:
>> Real Taoists simply fish for fish
>> and perhaps talk turkey with sea turtles
>> along with an happy well-frog at times.
"It's me it's me, Earnest T." <BassI...@mayberryhillbilly.com>:
>Would they troll for trolls since they fish for fish?
>Would they talk tao with the meek who wish to inherit the earth?
>Or would they simply sit in the shade?
look, one of those television contraptions that addict the fingers
and eyes. yes, the brother one valley over with connections to
the academic world showed us that. we laughed and wondered where
we might fit a lizard into the works!! ::gales of mirth::
>> When it was time to go, Lao-tzu left.
>> When Yin Hsi said it was right to write,
>> Lao-tzu stopped at the gate and planted.
>>
>> Do flowers have a choice?
>
>Do weeds?
>Can one tell the difference at all times?
>Should one?
here they burn yard trash that has been weeded.
the flowers are left to wilt over the soil
mu
--
mailto:naga...@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html
mailto:bobo...@satanservice.org ; http://www.satanservice.org/
emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired
John Timothy Hall
> In article <8bcu16$938$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,
> ed...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John Timothy Hall) wrote:
>>lday (ldayNO...@pathcom.com.invalid) writes:
>>> ..drinking in starshine. Way cool. And predictable. Lao-tzu
>>> figured divination itself [as predictability] was the 'flower
> of
>>> the Tao'. Yet
>>> he preferred the fruit to the flower.
>>> flowing,
>>> --lawrence
>>>
>>> Well, I must say I'm with Lao-tzu on this one, although on
>>> occasion I eat flowers(I especially love wild violet flowers
> in
>>> the spring!)
>
> I looked carefully for a while this morning,
> but no fowers seemed up yet in the Humber Valley.
> our last snow: barely a week ago!
Wodinsday I wore shorts and rode my bicycle in to work. Saw crocus by canal
and morning dove on Cambridge.
>
>>> Divination has a religious root: Divine; and as we are all
> aware,
>>> this is alt. PHILOSOPHY. taoism, eh?
>
> ;-)
>
>>> But the bottom line for me is: A Flower Does Not Talk.
>>>
>>> {{"Yo! Buzzing bee! Come here and I will give you something
> sweet
>>> and nutritious if you'll just carry these pollen bits on your
>>> hairy legs over to yonder fragrant flower.." said the flower.
>>> "Buzz! What a deal!" said the bee, "Now I can make honey!"
>>> And they all lived happily ever after.:}}
>>
>> Anthropomorphism; plain and simple.
>
> All cartoons are Taoist..simplified stuff..
Flowers do not, I repeat, do not talk. Reality is not a cartoon. This
reminds me of the post where we were talking about feelings and you reverted
to baby-talk. Somewhere in John Wu's book is the quote: "He who is deluded
is spun round by the lotus. He who is enlightened spins the lotus around."
This is exactly what I said the other day about the goal of a man of
Tao.
>>> Chinese Tradition, ed. de Bary, p. 190)
>>> The primary observation of yinyangjia is the cyclical nature
> of
>>> phenomena. It can be divided into binary (taichi), quarters
>>> (seasonal), fifths (wu-hsing), eighths (pa kua) or 64th's
>>> (I-ching). Thus it becomes a basis for foretelling, as simply
> as
>>> Spring follows Winter. The 'West' may use religious words like
>>> 'divination' or 'augury' to translate foretelling, but
> weathermen
>>> also foretell, and are hardly priests.
>>>
>>> --lawrence
>>
>>
>> "Read your horoscope<--
>
> Yer basic newspaper 'horoscope' column is to astrology
> as the 'Psychic Hotline' is to psychic phenomena.
>
> i and cheat your fate." -Joe South in
> "The Games People
>>Play", a song...we're in the West Lawrence,
>
> Face facts, we're 'North', Canadians eh..
The 'North' of the 'West'...
> hmm, relatively, ok..
> and you wrote the
> word
>>"divination". One reason I prefer Dharma Practice is that it has
> nothing to
>>do with God, gods or the super-natural.
> Yo, indeed, no 'whims of the gods' variable present.)
How about 'whims of the Tao'? Divination strikes me as super-natural.
> "Yes I do believe in
> your hexagram,
>>but could you tell me how they all knew the plan. Did you trip
> or slip on
>>their gifts? It was just a con, you knew it. Why di'ju it? I
> been hidin' in
>>the dawn. Tarred and feathered yeah, thistled and thorned. One
> or the other
>>he kindly warned. Now you look out your window tell me: what do
> you see? I
>>see a golden calf pointing back at me."
>
> hum, this suggests a back-and-forth dubiousity betwixt te unist
> and dualist systems..?
That's just "The Band" from the album Big Pink. To me it speaks to the
all to prevalent practice of charlatens making money off other peoples
gullbiltiy. Like, "give me X amount of dollars and I'll cast these yarrow
stalks and tell your future". As you are aware, coins can also be employed.
Horoscopes and the Psychic hotline are just the most obvious examples of
this, and they do speak to psychology as Jung was well aware; as he says
in "Psycholgy and Religion": "If two or more people believe something, then
psychologically, it exists." As to whether something really exists, that is
up in the air. He used the example of the "virgin birth".
>> The gullibility of a
> large percentage
>>of the human race never ceases to amaze me. People are tricked
> because they
>>want to be tricked.
> Yo, 'people' always suck, thus civilisation..
> but 'subtract'! eh..
"Hell is other people." -Sartre
>> The total harmony of the Tao and the Dharma embodied in
> Ch'an, to me, is
>>the perfection of wisdom.
>
> agreed, & btw Tung-shan and Ts'ao-shan were Way familiar with the
> I-ching encodings.
> {Quotes available, if requested,but te dog is sniffin'..eh..
Yeah, I pissed him off so bad he came over to arbn and sniffed around
my shit over there. He's a tao-dog alright but has no Te and persists in
fucking himself online. He tried to play STUPID with me on that point but
I showed him the error of his ways. His posts are the epitome of small-
mindedness. Religion just means how one relates to one's existance or any-
thing of great personal importance like the Tao or being conscientious, rigid
and strict, which he trys to be and therefore refutes his own arguement
against religion by being so scrupulous about disallowing what he considers
religion here; but he's to narrow-minded to see this. He ignored me until
I pointed out his fundamental error of naming the Tao.
> Try some violet flowers when they come
> up, you'll
>>like them!
See you in the funnies!
John-in Ottawa
--