the lost *art* of enlightenment through... ???
Miller Jew
peter li'ir key <k...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
"kamerm" <kam...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
Hi K
>Some learning requires doing.
Agreed. And if I may say, thinking is a "doing" -- thought FORMS are
issued outward.. although I understand what your saying.
>Modern Zen (at least in the West) has largely lost the art of
>realization through sudden blows. Blows to the body via cudgels,
>etc are frowned on by the legal authorities. However, blows to
>the ego via words are legal although socially undesireable.
>Here in the grove, the verbal form of this "skillful means" is still
practiced.
Other than the constancy to train one to learn *self-discipline*, I
think this physical means played itself out a milleniums ago. It only
affected those that didn't have the understanding not to sense a
higher incoming aspect that needed greater discipline; our emotional
fields reactions that would then take precedent; then on to mental
discipline and to intuitive potentialities and kinetics. And that
blame would be on the pseudo-teachers.
From the Taoist perspective through (Taoist fundamentals of change and
transformation building from) evolution into finer and more subtle
arenas would follow through; emotional and mental sentiencing would
then be far more acute in the pain that would need to be controlled.
K
>Your methods and results appear far more effective than the
>protracted "ember wars" (not hot enough for flame) in az. While
>flame wars can be found all over the UseNet, only in the grove is
>there ever any point to them other than gratifying the participants'
>egos.
Methods and results may not be distant, but for sure we have no
interest in gratifying the participants ego through physical cudgery;
that only attracts the same attention.
>Here the mood and technique sometimes are likewise significantly
>different.
That is certainly true. That I feel I can comprehend the ways that
Chan/Zen developed their disciplinary needs for the enlightenment in
the east, but the western ways confuses me. I've noticed the ways of
Taoism of the east quite harmonious from many western folks embrace of
it, but "Modern Zen (at least in the West)" is quite confusing to me.
>Rick is a swaggering bravo of some attainment, but with no concept of
>the compassion animating the Master's cane. Perhaps Rick will grace
>me with a lesson or two -- he'll find little attainment, but plenty
>of compassion!
Disregarding your bringing our Rick, this interest me to ask about the
"Master's cane" (cudgel? again) -- this "physical" value. Could you
further clarify? Is this so much an attraction in Modern Zen?
Regards,
--Zhou
peter li'ir key
>Other than the constancy to train one to learn *self-discipline*, I
>think this physical means played itself out a milleniums ago. It only
>affected those that didn't have the understanding not to sense a
>higher incoming aspect that needed greater discipline; our emotional
>fields reactions that would then take precedent; then on to mental
>discipline and to intuitive potentialities and kinetics. And that
>blame would be on the pseudo-teachers.
shut up zhou.
you don't know what you are talking about.
and learn to speak english one of these days.
peter li'ir key
k...@springhaven.org
rick
Peter,
Take tyagi out of your ass and get a life.
kam...@my-dejanews.com
violence is risky and often counter-productive, it's
also sometimes the only way to get a person unstuck. The
pain and surprise seem to make people both more flexible
and more alert. A sudden attack also bypasses all but the
most entrenched mental defences.
The old Zen masters used to give disciples whacks with a
hand, stick, or whatever was available, whenever they got
stuck on something and couldn't be pursuaded to put it
aside. Later on, a cane (sometimes iron tipped) became part
of the ritual trappings of a teaching Zen Master. I don't
know how often it was actually used (as opposed to sharp
word, hand, etc).
Disciples, especially those of some attainment, sometimes
get fixated on some minor realization. Realizations don't
matter though. No one's keeping score, and even if you're
lucky enough to realize something, there's probably still a
whole lot more to go.
Lay people and disciples can be stuck on a self-image, a
logical framework, an obsessive love. Darn near anything
you can think or feel can become over-blown and block the
person from a clear view of (at least their part of)
reality.
Psycho-analysis and other psycho-therapies can sometimes
help, but they're slow. Worse, they focus pretty
exclusively on social or physical maladjustments. Problem
is, socially adjusted people often have no concept of
reality, and succeed anyway because of stubborn conformance
to norms. Psycho-therapy would only drive them in deeper.
So, what should you do if you feel you just have to do
something? (Both compassion and skill are required, or
you're just being another ass-hole.) Whacking away the
fixation with some well chosen or inspired words would be
ideal. Even bruising the fixation might help the person
realize it was there and stop identifying with it.
Anyway, enough of my mangling, interpreting, and para-
phrasing. I'll go look for some references.
In article <6qoqe7$l...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
zho...@ix.netcom.com(Miller Jew) wrote:
> ref: the lost *art* of enlightenment through...???
>
> peter li'ir key <k...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
> "kamerm" <kam...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> Hi K
>
> >Some learning requires doing.
>
> Agreed. And if I may say, thinking is a "doing" -- thought FORMS are
> issued outward.. although I understand what your saying.
>
> >Modern Zen (at least in the West) has largely lost the art of
> >realization through sudden blows. Blows to the body via cudgels,
> >etc are frowned on by the legal authorities. However, blows to
> >the ego via words are legal although socially undesireable.
> >Here in the grove, the verbal form of this "skillful means" is still
> practiced.
>
> Other than the constancy to train one to learn *self-discipline*, I
> think this physical means played itself out a milleniums ago. It only
> affected those that didn't have the understanding not to sense a
> higher incoming aspect that needed greater discipline; our emotional
> fields reactions that would then take precedent; then on to mental
> discipline and to intuitive potentialities and kinetics. And that
> blame would be on the pseudo-teachers.
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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JERRYBURKH
you don't know what you are talking about.
and learn to speak english one of these days.
peter li'ir key
k...@springhaven.org<<
Eat Shit & die you little jerk.....
jer
Omnivore
kam...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
snip
>The old Zen masters used to give disciples whacks with a
>hand, stick, or whatever was available, whenever they got
>stuck on something and couldn't be pursuaded to put it
>aside. Later on, a cane (sometimes iron tipped) became part
>of the ritual trappings of a teaching Zen Master. I don't
>know how often it was actually used (as opposed to sharp
>word, hand, etc).
I'd wonder if a lack of whack when a student has come to expect it would
be as affective?
Miller Jew
>k...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (peter li'ir key) wrote:
>Miller Jew <zho...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>and you shouldn't talk when its a full moon..
P
>hrm... i should have said that to you.
>
>the flattery has gone to your head.
Nah...
as warm as soul/te's ever be
flattery's merely fleeting..
but let's get real:
ya wanna come over and pay my present bills?
I don't think so.
-
-yet -- a happy Taoist :-)
( now where'd dem damn stamps go? )
Z!
peter li'ir key
>>k...@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (peter li'ir key) wrote:
>>Miller Jew <zho...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>and you shouldn't talk when its a full moon..
>>the flattery has gone to your head.
>Nah...
>as warm as soul/te's ever be
>flattery's merely fleeting..
so are other thing you cherish.
that's a lame excuse.
>but let's get real:
>ya wanna come over and pay my present bills?
>I don't think so.
>-yet -- a happy Taoist :-)
>( now where'd dem damn stamps go? )
e pluribus non sequitur.
if only you were really that attentive.
the flattery has gone to your head.
TomLupe
It would appear to most that his supposed problems are in yer head. You color
him any way you like.... he is still Z to the rest of us.
Uncolored and just Z.
Keep dat eternal smile Z!!
jer
++++ Shantytown Resident Rodent Developer ++++
Shanty town --Give us your decrepid, ignorant, Stupid & the ugly
Free space fer all ( except grovies). squalid conditions, Filth & ignorance
abound. A resident owned community.
rick
>
>
>
>
If I thought that
do you think I would praise him?
Zhou is not at all pretenious.
He has never claimed to be the master
that I call him. In fact he has sent me e-mail in
the past saying it embarrased him.
Go hide in a bottle of scotch
and come back when you have a point.
Omnivore
peter li'ir key wrote in message
snip
>
>e pluribus non sequitur.
>
What is that?
United we babble?
peter li'ir key
>peter li'ir key wrote:
>> the flattery has gone to your head.
>If I thought that
>do you think I would praise him?
this isn't about you.
what you think is unimportant to me.
>Zhou is not at all pretenious.
you are welcome to your opinion.
zhou's pretense isn't enlightenment.
>He has never claimed to be the master
>that I call him. In fact he has sent me e-mail in
>the past saying it embarrased him.
yes, you are quite embarrassing.
>Go hide in a bottle of scotch
>and come back when you have a point.
i'm back.
* * *
you don't know what i'm at.
but that's unlikely to stop you.
rick
> * * *
>
> you don't know what i'm at.
> but that's unlikely to stop you.
>
>
Ok, Zhou will handle it just fine, I'm sure.
drown yourself in it.
peter li'ir key
your faith in people is quite like your vision.
TomLupe
My My you sure have a lot of opinions these days..... Are we to take this as
fact or as another assholes' opinion? Take a good look at yourself peter.. (if
you dare).
kamerm
<6qpvq0$pvg$1...@nnrp2.snfc21.pbi.net>...
Absolutely. Sometimes students whacked masters too. Perhaps that's
the true reason for the cane's iron tip? ;-)
kam...@my-dejanews.com
accomplish. Lesson in that somewhere?
I've found no (English) reference that devotes any attention
to the history of the Zen "waking stick" (kyosaku) or it's
possible predecessor, the Buddhist ceremonial staff (nyoi).
This certainly doesn't mean that there is no such research,
and any pointers from/to those with further interest are
welcome in this thread.
Here's what I've gleaned from parenthetical comments:
The buddhists brought many things with them to Japan,
including the monk's ceremonial, but functional staff
known as a "nyoi". (IMHO, the staff's roles as walking
stick and "weapon at hand" probably had more to do with
iron tips, etc, then any philosophic or teaching
considerations.)
Already existant in the Ch'an tradition was the use of
what in the Zen tradition is called kyosaku or "waking
stick" (anyone know the Chinese?). The principal use
of this device is to administer painful lessons, usually
in the futility of trying to sleep during group meditation.
Its metaphoric tie-in to rude awakenings may have something
to do with its popularity as a tool of spiritual awakening
in Zen history and folk-lore.
Stories and traditions involving these 2 originally
distinct items seem to have become confounded and merged
as Zen matured into a tradition distinct from Ch'an.
But I could be wrong. Any Zen historians lurking?
Interestingly (but perhaps irrelevantly) a modern Japanese
martial art known as Shorinji Kempo (appears to be a fusion
of Kung-Fu and Zen) teaches the use of the "Nyoi den: club".
Looks like Zhou hit on a good doctoral research project
for someone. Not me. Already have a job!
In article <6qpl90$8gk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
kam...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> The simple answer (from where I stand only) is that while
> violence is risky and often counter-productive, it's
> also sometimes the only way to get a person unstuck. The
> pain and surprise seem to make people both more flexible
> and more alert. A sudden attack also bypasses all but the
> most entrenched mental defences.
>
> The old Zen masters used to give disciples whacks with a
> hand, stick, or whatever was available, whenever they got
> stuck on something and couldn't be pursuaded to put it
> aside. Later on, a cane (sometimes iron tipped) became part
> of the ritual trappings of a teaching Zen Master. I don't
> know how often it was actually used (as opposed to sharp
> word, hand, etc).
<Snip>
> Anyway, enough of my mangling, interpreting, and para-
> phrasing. I'll go look for some references.
>
> In article <6qoqe7$l...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
> zho...@ix.netcom.com(Miller Jew) wrote:
> > ref: the lost *art* of enlightenment through...???
> >
<Big Snip>
musician
> Already existant in the Ch'an tradition was the use of
> what in the Zen tradition is called kyosaku or "waking
> stick" (anyone know the Chinese?). The principal use
> of this device is to administer painful lessons, usually
> in the futility of trying to sleep during group meditation.
> Its metaphoric tie-in to rude awakenings may have something
> to do with its popularity as a tool of spiritual awakening
> in Zen history and folk-lore.
something-or-other Palin - you know that guy from Monty Python (I think
he said "wewease Woger"). He has a travel show on the BBC now (really
very good). He was once in Japan and went to a Zen monastary (at least I
think it was a Zen Bhuddist monastary). He was invited to the meditation
(to show his viewers a little of what it's like) and there was a monk
with a "waking stick" there. Palin explained that the stick was used to
awaken the participants, but I got the feeling that was an
oversimplified pr type explanation. Then they showed how the stick was
administered. The so-called sleeping monk would lean forward, the stick
monk (meditators were eleveated a little - sitting on beds or someting -
couldn't see exactly) would then feel along the upper spine of the
"sleeping" monk untill he had found a specific spot. He rubbed that spot
with his fingers about three times in a small circular motion. Then he
stood back and hit once soft for accuracy and once reasonably (but not
ridiculously) hard. He then repeated those two blows precisely.
Then he walked over to Palin and did exactly the same thing. My
immediate reaction was that it had something to do with an energy
meridian or chakra or whatever you wanna call it
--
musician
kamerm
I forget which. It hurts. It startles. The precision helps avoid
side-effects (like the stick handler getting too enthusiastic ;-))
There's a lot more to it, but you can get that by dangling a
little bait in az.
musician <jos...@globalxs.nl> wrote in article
<1ddok13.c9s...@94.145.dialin.mxs.nl>...
rick
>
> 100% correct. The ideal spot is the junction of 2 meridians.
> I forget which. It hurts. It startles.
It moves the assemblage point?
The same "device" is mentioned by Carlos Casteneda as being used
on him by Don Juan, to produce the What may be considered to be the
same effect. Only Don Juan used his hand on that spot.
ld...@pathcom.com
Another good spot is between and above the eyes, just outside the pineal
gland. Tap three times with the middle finger, saying: Hellooo..anybody
home?? Bloomin' golden flower eh! --lawrence
kam...@my-dejanews.com
rsat...@iglou.com wrote:
> kamerm wrote:
> >
> > 100% correct. The ideal spot is the junction of 2 meridians.
> > I forget which. It hurts. It startles.
>
> It moves the assemblage point?
>
> The same "device" is mentioned by Carlos Casteneda as being used
> on him by Don Juan, to produce the What may be considered to be the
> same effect. Only Don Juan used his hand on that spot.
>
Could be. What's "the assemblage point" (what discipline, etc uses
the term the way you have in mind)?
Might be a good topic for a cross-post to az or apz?
rick
>
> In article <35D25E...@iglou.com>,
> rsat...@iglou.com wrote:
> > kamerm wrote:
> > >
> > > 100% correct. The ideal spot is the junction of 2 meridians.
> > > I forget which. It hurts. It startles.
> >
> > It moves the assemblage point?
> >
> > The same "device" is mentioned by Carlos Casteneda as being used
> > on him by Don Juan, to produce the What may be considered to be the
> > same effect. Only Don Juan used his hand on that spot.
> >
>
> gland. Tap three times with the middle finger, saying: Hellooo..anybody
> home?? Bloomin' golden flower eh! --lawrence
>
Never heard of it. Must be a canadian thing. eh!
Much the same as being obsessed with the I-ching I would imagine.
Do you do it often?
musician
> kamerm wrote:
> >
> > 100% correct. The ideal spot is the junction of 2 meridians.
> > I forget which. It hurts. It startles.
>
> It moves the assemblage point?
>
> The same "device" is mentioned by Carlos Casteneda as being used
> on him by Don Juan, to produce the What may be considered to be the
> same effect. Only Don Juan used his hand on that spot.
long live the spots
and who's holdin' dam jug anyway.............
--
musician
rcma...@netcom.com
>In article <35D25E...@iglou.com>,
> rsat...@iglou.com wrote:
>> kamerm wrote:
>> >
>> > 100% correct. The ideal spot is the junction of 2 meridians.
>> > I forget which. It hurts. It startles.
>>
>> It moves the assemblage point?
>>
>> The same "device" is mentioned by Carlos Casteneda as being used
>> on him by Don Juan, to produce the What may be considered to be the
>> same effect. Only Don Juan used his hand on that spot.
>>
>
>the term the way you have in mind)?
Hi rick, kamerm, and all,
The basic idea of donJuan's teachings (see Castaneda's work) is,
that we are "assembled" at a certain "point" (assemblage point),
which is the point of social consensus (conditioning), and that that
is how we are collectively holding "up" this world of "ordinary
reality".
The idea is to move our assemblage point to the point of "silent
knowledge", i.e. the knowledge we all have, but which has largely
been buried under our ordinary concerns of everyday life.
I believe rick is referring to "the nagual's blow" administered by
a sorcerer to the apprentice, which is something akin to other
descriptions; for example the hindu guru using "shaktipat" with
a disciple.
donJuan:
"... in the universe there is an unmeasurable, indescribable force
which sorcerers call intent, and absolutely everything that exists
in the entire cosmos is attached to intent by a connecting link.
.. That sensation of being bottled up is experienced by every
human being. It is a reminder of our existing connection with
intent. For sorcerers this sensation is even more acute, precisely
because their goal is to sensitize their connecting link until they
can make it function at will."
The Power of Silence
Rosemarie
musician
> Another good spot is between and above the eyes, just outside the pineal
> gland. Tap three times with the middle finger, saying: Hellooo..anybody
> home?? Bloomin' golden flower eh! --lawrence
.......someone said "ain't nobody here but us chickens"!?
--
musician
musician
> kamerm wrote:
> >
> > 100% correct. The ideal spot is the junction of 2 meridians.
> > I forget which. It hurts. It startles.
>
> It moves the assemblage point?
>
> The same "device" is mentioned by Carlos Casteneda as being used
> on him by Don Juan, to produce the What may be considered to be the
> same effect. Only Don Juan used his hand on that spot.
just reread the above.......
"assemblage point"
all of a sudden I find myself wondering how this fits in with the "brain
as center" arguement (I'm paraphrasing you here and I know I could be
wildly innacurate but I thought you argued for a biological base as
perceptor/viewer)
--
musician
rick
>
> In <6qv5rk$9ea$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, kam...@my-dejanews.com writes:
> >In article <35D25E...@iglou.com>,
> >> kamerm wrote:
> >> >
> >> > 100% correct. The ideal spot is the junction of 2 meridians.
> >> > I forget which. It hurts. It startles.
> >>
> >> It moves the assemblage point?
> >>
> >> The same "device" is mentioned by Carlos Casteneda as being used
> >> on him by Don Juan, to produce the What may be considered to be the
> >> same effect. Only Don Juan used his hand on that spot.
> >>
> >
Thanks Rosemarie
I'm glad I didn't have to dig out my books.
I don't have as good a grasp of the teaching as you anyway.
rick
>
> rick <rsat...@iglou.com> wrote:
>
> > kamerm wrote:
> > >
> > > 100% correct. The ideal spot is the junction of 2 meridians.
> > > I forget which. It hurts. It startles.
> >
> > It moves the assemblage point?
> >
> > The same "device" is mentioned by Carlos Casteneda as being used
> > on him by Don Juan, to produce the What may be considered to be the
> > same effect. Only Don Juan used his hand on that spot.
>
>
> "assemblage point"
>
> all of a sudden I find myself wondering how this fits in with the "brain
> as center" arguement (I'm paraphrasing you here and I know I could be
> wildly innacurate but I thought you argued for a biological base as
> perceptor/viewer)
>
> --
> musician
Regardless of the sensory perception and the area the input
comes from, the brain is still the processor and display viewer of
what is perceived. Rosemarie has posted an accurate discription
of what I was refering to. Which to me seems to be a perception
rather than a biological point of functionality....
Rosemarie:
kamerm
> In <6qv5rk$9ea$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, kam...@my-dejanews.com writes:
> >In article <35D25E...@iglou.com>,
> >> kamerm wrote:
> >> >
> >> > 100% correct. The ideal spot is the junction of 2 meridians.
> >> > I forget which. It hurts. It startles.
> >>
> >> It moves the assemblage point?
> >>
> >> The same "device" is mentioned by Carlos Casteneda as being used
> >> on him by Don Juan, to produce the What may be considered to be the
> >> same effect. Only Don Juan used his hand on that spot.
> >>
> >
> >the term the way you have in mind)?
>
> Hi rick, kamerm, and all,
>
> that we are "assembled" at a certain "point" (assemblage point),
> which is the point of social consensus (conditioning), and that that
> is how we are collectively holding "up" this world of "ordinary
> reality".
>
> knowledge", i.e. the knowledge we all have, but which has largely
> been buried under our ordinary concerns of everyday life.
>
> I believe rick is referring to "the nagual's blow" administered by
> a sorcerer to the apprentice, which is something akin to other
> descriptions; for example the hindu guru using "shaktipat" with
> a disciple.
>
> donJuan:
> "... in the universe there is an unmeasurable, indescribable force
> which sorcerers call intent, and absolutely everything that exists
> in the entire cosmos is attached to intent by a connecting link.
> .. That sensation of being bottled up is experienced by every
> human being. It is a reminder of our existing connection with
> intent. For sorcerers this sensation is even more acute, precisely
> because their goal is to sensitize their connecting link until they
> can make it function at will."
> The Power of Silence
> Rosemarie
>
>
Oh great, another book on the reading list.. Thanks Rosemarie!
Rick, if that was what you meant by the "assemblage point", then
I don't know whether or how it's related to Zen. Guy with the pen name
Dirk in az might know.
musician
> Regardless of the sensory perception and the area the input
> comes from, the brain is still the processor and display viewer of
> what is perceived. Rosemarie has posted an accurate discription
> of what I was refering to. Which to me seems to be a perception
> rather than a biological point of functionality....
>
> Rosemarie:
> > The basic idea of donJuan's teachings (see Castaneda's work) is,
> > that we are "assembled" at a certain "point" (assemblage point),
> > which is the point of social consensus (conditioning), and that that
> > is how we are collectively holding "up" this world of "ordinary
> > reality".
ok.......now I get to causality. The view from here is; we maintain and
create this place. So it seems that the above two paragraphs are
diametrically opposed (not nessecarily a bad thing). How does it work
that the brain processes and views while creating and is the assemblage
a "view" or something else that I don't have a grip on yet?
--
musician
rick
The brain processes and views and creates constantly.
Input from the senses is compliled(created) into a view of reality
which is holographically stored and reviewed as "ordinary reality."
The assemblage point is the point in your "Gestalt" that you
focus your intent of perception upon. The idea of the blow to
back was to cause a shift in the focus of perception that caused
an alternate view of reality to be perceived.
rcma...@netcom.com
>rick <rsat...@iglou.com> wrote:
>
>> Regardless of the sensory perception and the area the input
>> comes from, the brain is still the processor and display viewer of
>> what is perceived. Rosemarie has posted an accurate discription
>> of what I was refering to. Which to me seems to be a perception
>> rather than a biological point of functionality....
>>
>> Rosemarie:
>> > The basic idea of donJuan's teachings (see Castaneda's work) is,
>> > that we are "assembled" at a certain "point" (assemblage point),
>> > which is the point of social consensus (conditioning), and that that
>> > is how we are collectively holding "up" this world of "ordinary
>> > reality".
>
>ok.......now I get to causality. The view from here is; we maintain and
>create this place. So it seems that the above two paragraphs are
>diametrically opposed (not nessecarily a bad thing). How does it work
>that the brain processes and views while creating and is the assemblage
>a "view" or something else that I don't have a grip on yet?
>
>
>--
>musician
Hi musician,
I'll let donJuan speak for himself, for he said it better than I ever could.
Hope this helps to get a better understanding of something that is not
easily described, which accounts for the variety of colorful descriptions
of all the different systems and teachings. :-)
Rosemarie
"The first truth is that the world is as it looks and yet it isn't. It's
not as solid and real as our perception has been led to believe, but it
isn't a mirage either. The world is not an illusion, as it has been said
to be; it's real on the one hand, and unreal on the other. Pay close
attention to this, for it must be understood, not just accepted. We
perceive. This is a hard fact. But what we perceive is not a fact of
the same kind, because we learn what to perceive."
"... our rationality alone cannot come up with an answer about the
reason for our existence. Every time it tries, the answer turns into
a matter of beliefs. The old seers took another road, and they did find
an answer which doesn't involve faith alone."
"..first of all, one must become aware that the world we perceive
is the result of our assemblage points being located at a specific
spot."
"... the average man, incapable of finding the energy to perceive
beyond his daily limits, called the realm of extraordinary perception
sorcery, witchcraft, or the work of the devil, and shied away from
it without examining it further. ... Turn everything into what it really
is: the abstract, the spirit, the nagual. There is no witchcraft, no
evil, no devil. There is only perception."
"There is something in all of us that can make us witness with our
entire body. ... because man is composed of the Eagle's emanations,
man need only revert back to his components. The problem arises
with man's awareness; it is his awareness that becomes entangled
and confused. At the crucial moment when it should be a simple case
of the emanations acknowledging themselves, man's awareness is
compelled to interpret."
Carlos Castaneda, "The Fire from Within"
musician
I worked today. feeling relaxed with my glass of wine.......
I just read and replied rc's post, and then turn to this one.......
>
> The brain processes and views and creates constantly.
> Input from the senses is compliled(created) into a view of reality
> which is holographically stored and reviewed as "ordinary reality."
> The assemblage point is the point in your "Gestalt" that you
> focus your intent of perception upon. The idea of the blow to
> back was to cause a shift in the focus of perception that caused
> an alternate view of reality to be perceived.
ok...then..........
if we're assembled else where - then the view is not compiled in the
brain?
I'm still unclear a bit (in trying to see from your view)
--
musician
musician
> Hi musician,
> I'll let donJuan speak for himself, for he said it better than I ever could.
> Hope this helps to get a better understanding of something that is not
> easily described, which accounts for the variety of colorful descriptions
> of all the different systems and teachings. :-)
> Rosemarie
-hefty snip-
Hi rc,
tx for this post. It was a while ago that I read the first four in the
C. Castenada series. I don't have them anymore (casualties of my first
marriage) and I must admit that I don't recognise the title you site. I
heard that there were a lot more books now. Would you suggest a book for
me so that I can brush up in general on Don Juans view?
--
musician
rcma...@netcom.com
Hi,
the books I find myself quoting from most often are "The Fire From Within"
and "The Power of Silence", which are CC's 7th and 8th books respectively.
Next to those two books, my favourites are "Journey to Ixtlan" and "Tales
of Power", his 3rd and 4th books. If you are interested in dreaming, then
you might want to get his 9th book, "The Art Of Dreaming". I have not yet
read his latest books which were released shortly before his death.
Rosemarie
>
>--
>musician
rick
All of what I was talking about occurs in the brain.
processing, viewing, creation of views, storage of views.
Compliation is a function of the processor and the processor is
the brain.
The assemblage point is the point on your awareness
horizon, or "gestalt" where ordinary reality is perceived.
A shift in the point that your awareness is focused on,
causes a separate reality to be perceived. An example would
be the altered perception of someone that has taken a
psychotropic drug. Ordinary reality is suspened and the
separate or alternate reality is the focus of the assemblage
point.
Miller Jew
rick <rsat...@iglou.com> wrote:
>
>The brain processes and views and creates constantly.
>Input from the senses is compliled(created) into a view of reality
>which is holographically stored and reviewed as "ordinary reality."
>The assemblage point is the point in your "Gestalt" that you
>focus your intent of perception upon. The idea of the blow to
>back was to cause a shift in the focus of perception that caused
>an alternate view of reality to be perceived.
Not sure where this thread derived from, but I'm gathering this is our
normal physiological textbook start on our organic brain mechanism,
plus with the mind's play (although even now scientist still don't know
what the mind is to brain flesh. Nonetheless, our perceptions "gestalt"
--or "whole as different from the sum of its parts"-- will shift as
alterations force a change of perception from what was once our normal
concensus-driven reality.
Rick ( I repeat)
>The idea of the blow to back was to cause a shift in the focus of
>perception that caused an alternate view of reality to be perceived.
The way by which our view of reality is changed (and there are many
ways) offers us clues to this whole-gestalt process. Through such
alterations, this change of concept changes one's reality, since
concepts direct precepts as much as precepts impinge on concepts.
Regards,
--Zhou
peter li'ir key
>>your faith in people is quite like your vision.
>>Peter<<
>My My you sure have a lot of opinions these days.....
i'm always full of opinions.
>Are we to take this as fact or as another assholes' opinion?
>Take a good look at yourself peter.. (if you dare).
i dare.
now, what did i say? how does your opinion of me color it?
your faith in people is quite like your vision.
peter li'ir key
>Uncolored and just Z.
uncolored.
>Keep dat eternal smile Z!!
this is the color of z.
and z knows how odd this color is.
lisa
When the Shoe Fits
Ch'ui the draftsman
Could draw more perfect circles freehand
Than with a compass.
His fingers brought forth
Spontaneous forms from nowhere. His mind
Was meanwhile free and without concern
With what he was doing.
No application was needed
His mind was perfectly simple
And knew no obstacle.
So, when the shoe fits
The foot is forgotten,
When the belt fits
The belly is forgotten,
When the heart is right
"For" and "against" are forgotten.
No drives, no compulsions,
No needs, no attractions:
Then your affairs are under control.
You are a free man.
Easy is right. Begin right
And you are easy.
Continue easy and you are right.
The right way to go easy
Is to forget the right way
And forget that the going is easy.
[xix. 12.]
from _The Way of Chuang Tzu_, by Thomas Merton
peter,
the shoe fits z.
lisa
lisa
>
> >the shoe fits z.
>
> that is for z. to say.
>
i see no limp. there is no need for z to say.
> * * *
>
> the colors of the world enter through the eye.
and love permeates the soul.
lisa
peter li'ir key
>the shoe fits z.
that is for z. to say.
* * *
the colors of the world enter through the eye.
musician
> peter li'ir key wrote:
> >
> > lisa <lk...@gte.net> wrote:
> > >the shoe fits z.
> >
> > that is for z. to say.
> >
>
> i see no limp. there is no need for z to say.
>
> > * * *
> >
> > the colors of the world enter through the eye.
>
> and love permeates the soul.
>
> lisa
suddenly found myself wondering if love could also shift the assemblage
point?
--
musician
TomLupe
>the shoe fits z.
>>that is for z. to say.
the colors of the world enter through the eye.
peter li'ir key
no Lisa made the remark it is for lisa to say.
Lisa sees Z perhaps different than you.
she colors him not. (or not as much?)
nothing is required from Z. You made the original observation. You chose to
color Z as
a something (still not sure what). big ego?
Z just is. everything else you created & own.
>>the colors of the world enter through the eye.
no the colors I talk about come from the mind.
The eye took it in as colorless the mind made him this & that.......
tl
peter li'ir key
>Lisa sees Z perhaps different than you.
>she colors him not. (or not as much?)
she colors him.
and zhou says this or that as it pleases him.
>nothing is required from Z. You made the original observation. You chose to
>color Z as
>a something (still not sure what). big ego?
not that.
>Z just is.
smile colored.
>everything else you created & own.
do apply your measure to yourself.
* * *
ethos
lisa
>
> suddenly found myself wondering if love could also shift the assemblage
> point?
>
> --
howdy!
question for you, musician. not being able to keep up with the thread
which was talking about the assemblage point, could you give me one of
those gist things on it?
thanks,
lisa
musician
sorry Li - I got no handle on that one yet. Refer to rcmartin or rick.
happy hunting
--
musician
kam...@my-dejanews.com
Good idea!
Hi Rosemarie and Rick, would either or both of you care
to post a list of your favorite books on Shamanism?
I've heard folks speak of it before re both Tao and Zen,
but had no idea it might still have a substantial
influence on basic practices.
ld...@pathcom.com
kam...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <1ddyeol.17j...@36.145.dialin.mxs.nl>,
> jos...@globalxs.nl (musician) wrote:
> > lisa <lk...@gte.net> wrote:
> >
> > > musician wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > suddenly found myself wondering if love could also shift the assemblage
> > > > point?
> > > >
> > > > --
> > >
> > > howdy!
> > > question for you, musician. not being able to keep up with the thread
> > > which was talking about the assemblage point, could you give me one of
> > > those gist things on it?
> > > thanks,
> > > lisa
> >
> > sorry Li - I got no handle on that one yet. Refer to rcmartin or rick.
> >
> > happy hunting
> >
> > --
> > musician
> >
>
> Good idea!
>
> Hi Rosemarie and Rick, would either or both of you care
> to post a list of your favorite books on Shamanism?
> I've heard folks speak of it before re both Tao and Zen,
> but had no idea it might still have a substantial
> influence on basic practices.
Yeah, frankly I'm confused also.
Is the 'assemblage point' inside our outside of the identity?
A mystery for me!
--ld
rcma...@netcom.com
>In article <6rc96d$e9c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> kam...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> In article <1ddyeol.17j...@36.145.dialin.mxs.nl>,
>> jos...@globalxs.nl (musician) wrote:
>> > lisa <lk...@gte.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > > musician wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > suddenly found myself wondering if love could also shift the assemblage
>> > > > point?
Hi,
Yes, all powerful emotions can. That is for example largely the reason why/
when the "nagual's blow" or "shaktipat" works. It is applied by the teacher
to the student and it acts due to three vital "ingredients", one being the
"energy" that is being transferred from teacher to student, the second
being the element of surprise, and the third indispensable one being the
high regard the student has for his teacher. :-)
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > >
>> > > howdy!
>> > > question for you, musician. not being able to keep up with the thread
>> > > which was talking about the assemblage point, could you give me one of
>> > > those gist things on it?
Hi Lisa :-)
It is just another way of looking at it. We largely create our own reality.
That is what is mainly meant by it. It points out that we can change our
reality, and the metaphorical description used is "moving our assemblage
point".
>> > > thanks,
>> > > lisa
>> >
>> > sorry Li - I got no handle on that one yet. Refer to rcmartin or rick.
>> >
>> > happy hunting
>> >
>> > --
>> > musician
>> >
>>
>> Good idea!
>>
>> Hi Rosemarie and Rick, would either or both of you care
>> to post a list of your favorite books on Shamanism?
>> I've heard folks speak of it before re both Tao and Zen,
>> but had no idea it might still have a substantial
>> influence on basic practices.
Hi kamerm, here are my 4 favorite books, all by C.Castaneda:
Journey to Ixtlan
Tales of Power
The Fire from Within
The Power of Silence.
>
>Yeah, frankly I'm confused also.
>Is the 'assemblage point' inside our outside of the identity?
Hi lawrence, is this a trick question? Ahahahaha! Give me a
definition of what's ultimately inside and what's outside and maybe
we can get closer to the answer. ;-)
When we have managed to move our assemblage point, we have
effectively changed all of reality. And not only that, along with
having changed the present, we have also changed the past.
Wild, eh? :-)
>A mystery for me!
Yes, these are all just attempts at describing the indescribable
and its workings; ultimately there is the mystery. :-)
Best regards to all,
Rosemarie
kamerm
<01bdcb1a$5cd827e0$LocalHost@default>...
<SNIP>
> Hi kamerm, here are my 4 favorite books, all by C.Castaneda:
> Journey to Ixtlan
> Tales of Power
> The Fire from Within
> The Power of Silence.
Thanks!
rick
>
> In article <1ddyeol.17j...@36.145.dialin.mxs.nl>,
> jos...@globalxs.nl (musician) wrote:
> > lisa <lk...@gte.net> wrote:
> >
> > > musician wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > suddenly found myself wondering if love could also shift the assemblage
> > > > point?
> > > >
> > >
> > > howdy!
> > > question for you, musician. not being able to keep up with the thread
> > > which was talking about the assemblage point, could you give me one of
> > > those gist things on it?
> > > lisa
> >
> > sorry Li - I got no handle on that one yet. Refer to rcmartin or rick.
> >
> > happy hunting
> >
> > --
> > musician
> >
>
> Good idea!
>
> Hi Rosemarie and Rick, would either or both of you care
> to post a list of your favorite books on Shamanism?
> I've heard folks speak of it before re both Tao and Zen,
> but had no idea it might still have a substantial
> influence on basic practices.
>
>
I have a list of books that have influenced my interest in
Shamanism. These are also books that influenced my opinions
and research directions in Anthropology:
To start I would like to say that all of the books
by Carlos Castaneda have been an Influence, even though they are
not generally considered to be anthropological. I have read
them all except the last part of the Power of Silence and
the Art of Dreaming. I don't know of any written after the
Art of Dreaming. Rosemarie provided a list of them here already.
Also these are favorites:
Historical Atlas of World Mythology, by Joseph Campbell.
Vol. I part 1. Mythologies of the Primitive Hunters and Gatherers.
part 2. Mythologies of The Great Hunt.
Vol. II part 1. The Sacrifice, part 2. Mythologies of the Primitive
Planters, Northern America. part 3. Mythologies of the Primitive
Planters, Middle and South Americas.
Harper&Row Publishers.
Shamanism - Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy, by Mircea Eliade
Princeton University press.
Understanding Cultures - perspectives in Anthropology and
Social Theory, by Robert C. Ulin
University of Texas press.
Anthropological Approaches to the Study of Religion.
Edited by Michael Banton.
Tavistock Publications.
Territorial Imperative, by Robert Ardrey
Dell Publishing.
Yanomano - The Fierce People , by Napoleon A. Chagnon
Holt, Rinehart a Winston publisher.
The Way of the Shaman, by Michael Harner
Harper Collins Publishers.
The Jivaro , by Michael Harner
Doubleday Publishers.
Religions of Man , by Huston Smith
Harper & Row Publishers.
Religion and the Decline of Magic, by Keith Thomas
Charles Scribner's Son, Mcmillian Pubblishing Co.
Black Elk Speaks, by John G. Neihardt
Washington Square Press.
Humankind, by Peter Farb
Houghton Miffin Co. Publishers
Cannibals and Kings, by Marvin Harris
Vintage Books, Random House.
Plants of The Gods - The Sacred, Healing and Hallucinogenic Power
by Richard Evans Schultes and Albert Hoffman
Healing Arts Press.
Food of the Gods - The Search for the Original Tree of Knowledge
by Terence McKenna
Bantam Books Publishers
The Celts, by T.G.E Powell
Thames and Hudson Publishers
Celtic Mythology, by Ward Rutherford
Sterling Publishing Co. Inc.
Fire in the head - Shamanism and the Celtic Spirit, by Tom Cowan
Harper Collins Publishers
The Way of Wyrd - Tales of an Anglo-Saxon Socrcerer, by Brian Bates
Harper Collins Publishers
Anthropology of Folk Religion, edited by Charles Leslie
Vintage Books, Random House.
Crack in the Cosmic Egg - Challenging Constructs of Mind & Reality
by Joseph Chilton Pearce
Julian Press Inc.
The Kirlian Aura - Photographing the Galaxies of Life
edited by Stanley Krippner and Daniel Rubin
Doubleday & Company Inc. Publishers
kamerm
<SNIP>
For someone who likes to know nothing, you read a lot!
As someone who likes to read, I thank you.
kam...@my-dejanews.com
rcma...@netcom.com wrote:
> >> In article <1ddyeol.17j...@36.145.dialin.mxs.nl>,
> >> jos...@globalxs.nl (musician) wrote:
> >> > > > suddenly found myself wondering if love could also shift the
assemblage
> >> > > > point?
>
> Yes, all powerful emotions can. That is for example largely the reason why/
> when the "nagual's blow" or "shaktipat" works. It is applied by the teacher
> to the student and it acts due to three vital "ingredients", one being the
> "energy" that is being transferred from teacher to student, the second
> being the element of surprise, and the third indispensable one being the
> high regard the student has for his teacher. :-)
>
:-}