Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" - an excellent book ...
bookbu...@my-deja.com
Hugh Bonney <hbo...@netcom14.netcom.com> wrote:
> In soc.culture.china Markku J. Saarelainen <mjs...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> : I would suggest every highschool student to read Sun Tzu's "the Art
> of : War" .... But it's titled the Art of War. You are suggesting
> that it be retitled the Art of Life instead. Is that the future you
> want? Is a Social Contract possible in such a regime? The culture the
> book comes from does not use that idea except within blood relations;
> otherwise good behavior is essentially negotiated and a web of
> relationships formed. Sometimes it seems like a war of all against
> all otherwise.
> Of course, I'm stating it so flatly to make the point.
> China is so old and complex that any kind of social idea is there
> somewhere. But it's only lately that a code of law ideally
> independent of an individual's power is being put in effect for
> business. Since life there doesn't draw lines between business and
> life especially, this law may prove subversive - that is, create
> radical social change by creating an expectation of law across all of
> life. One hopes it will all work out and ensure a prosperous future.
> Throwing away a few thousand years of very hard-won social progress
> on the ground of real-politik (?) is, IMHO, not a good idea. Studying
> the material later so as not to be made a fool of out in the world
> may be useful for some people.
> H.---
What about the usefulness of learning to read at more than the literal
level, as allegory, moral fable, parable of experience, etc.?
bookburn
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
me...@my-deja.com
complex value and principle messages; therefore he used the military
and combat as a metaphor only for this purpose. For over 2000 years Sun
Tzu has been read literally. This is a serious misunderstanding of
intent.
K'Prie
Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999, 11:51am (PST+8)
From: me...@my-deja.com
Re: Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" - an excellent book
> You are right on the mark. Sun Tzu intended that
> his book convey complex value and principle
> messages; therefore he used the military and
> combat as a metaphor only for this purpose. For
> over 2000 years Sun Tzu has been read literally.
> This is a serious misunderstanding of intent.
Nonsense. The noblemen who were the patrons of Sun Tzu and other
purveyors of martial wisdom had very practical reasons to support them
as advisors: To win wars. Sun Tzu bubbled to the top in fame because
his concise 13 Chapters were the most effective methods, proven time and
again in the many battles of the Warring States period. It is also
interesting to note that Japan, which possessed the Art of War, did
precisely the opposite of what was counselled by Sun Tzu during their
prosecution of the Pacific war--perhaps the Japanese took it as metaphor
and considered it out of date.
K'Prie
--
Woman awakening to her own Xena-consciousness brings liberation.
bookbu...@my-deja.com
Here is an example of what is said in part of _The Art of War_. Are
there not many levels of interpretation possible?
V. Energy
<snip>
4. That the impact of your army may be like a grindstone dashed against
an egg--this is effected by the science of weak points and strong.
5. In all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle,
but indirect methods will be needed in order to secure victory.
6. Indirect tactics, efficiently applied, are inexhaustible as Heaven
and Earth, unending as the flow of rivers and streams; like the sun and
moon, they end but to begin anew; like the four seasons, they pass away
to return once more.
7. There are not more than five musical notes, yet the combinations of
these five give rise to more melodies than can ever be heard.
8. There are not more than five primary colors (blue, yellow, red,
white, and black), yet in combination they produce more hues than can
ever been seen.
9. There are not more than five cardinal tastes (sour, acrid, salt,
sweet, bitter), yet combinations of them yield more flavors than can
ever be tasted.
10. In battle, there are not more than two methods of attack--the
direct and the indirect; yet these two in combination give rise to an
endless series of maneuvers.
11. The direct and the indirect lead on to each other in turn. It is
like moving in a circle--you never come to an end. Who can exhaust the
possibilities of their combination?
12. The onset of troops is like the rush of a torrent which will even
roll stones along in its course.
13. The quality of decision is like the well-timed swoop of a falcon
which enables it to strike and destroy its victim.
14. Therefore the good fighter will be terrible in his onset, and
prompt in his decision.
15. Energy may be likened to the bending of a crossbow; decision, to
the releasing of a trigger.
16. Amid the turmoil and tumult of battle, there may be seeming
disorder and yet no real disorder at all; amid confusion and chaos,
your array may be without head or tail, yet it will be proof against
defeat.
17. Simulated disorder postulates perfect discipline, simulated fear
postulates courage; simulated weakness postulates strength.
18. Hiding order beneath the cloak of disorder is simply a question of
subdivision; concealing courage under a show of timidity presupposes a
fund of latent energy; masking strength with weakness is to be effected
by tactical dispositions.
19. Thus one who is skillful at keeping the enemy on the move maintains
deceitful appearances, according to which the enemy will act. He
sacrifices something, that the enemy may snatch at it.
20. By holding out baits, he keeps him on the march; then with a body
of picked men he lies in wait for him.
21. The clever combatant looks to the effect of combined energy, and
does not require too much from individuals. Hence his ability to pick
out the right men and utilize combined energy.
22. When he utilizes combined energy, his fighting men become as it
were like unto rolling logs or stones. For it is the nature of a log or
stone to remain motionless on level ground, and to move when on a
slope; if four-cornered, to come to a standstill, but if round-shaped,
to go rolling down.
23. Thus the energy developed by good fighting men is as the momentum
of a round stone rolled down a mountain thousands of feet in height. So
much on the subject of energy.
Regards, bookburn
lawrence day
> Group: alt.philosophy.taoism
> Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999, 11:51am (PST+8)
> From: me...@my-deja.com
> Re: Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" - an excellent book
>
> > You are right on the mark. Sun Tzu intended that
> > his book convey complex value and principle
> > messages; therefore he used the military and
> > combat as a metaphor only for this purpose. For
> > over 2000 years Sun Tzu has been read literally.
> > This is a serious misunderstanding of intent.
>
> Nonsense. The noblemen who were the patrons of Sun Tzu and other
> purveyors of martial wisdom had very practical reasons to support them
> as advisors: To win wars. Sun Tzu bubbled to the top in fame because
> his concise 13 Chapters were the most effective methods, proven time and
> again in the many battles of the Warring States period. It is also
> interesting to note that Japan, which possessed the Art of War, did
> precisely the opposite of what was counselled by Sun Tzu during their
> prosecution of the Pacific war--perhaps the Japanese took it as metaphor
> and considered it out of date.
Perhaps ending Western Imperialism in Asia was such an over-riding concern
that the Japanese disregarded all else?
Evaluating history is rarely as easy as seperating white hats from black..
-l
K'Prie
Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999, 12:53pm (PST+3)
From: ld...@pathcom.com (lawrence day)
Re: Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" - an excellent book ...
> Perhaps ending Western Imperialism in Asia was
> such an over-riding concern that the Japanese
> disregarded all else?
Despite their high-falutin' name for it: "Greater East Asia
Co-Prosperity Sphere" the Japanese empire from 1941 to 1945 was
primarily concerned with carrying their loot (mostly oil) back to the
Fatherland, and many of the conquered peoples looked back on the yoke of
western imperialism as the "Good Old Days." Strategically, it was a bad
proposition, on account of all our submarines sending Japanese shipping
to the bottom of the South China Sea.
K'Prie
From: bookbu...@my-deja.com Re: Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" - an
excellent book ...
> Here is an example of what is said in part of _The
> Art of War_. Are there not many levels of
> interpretation possible?
> V. Energy
> <snip>
> 4. That the impact of your army may be like a
> grindstone dashed against an egg--this is effected
> by the science of weak points and strong.
Against Xena's mysterious strategy Caesar positioned centuries (a
fighting unit with 100 men) in many places, not knowing where she would
strike. Thus, anywhere Xena chose to attack, she encountered only
century level opposition.
> 5. In all fighting, the direct method may be used
> for joining battle, but indirect methods will be
> needed in order to secure victory.
Xena engages with her main force, fixing their attention. Then she
attempts to get into their rear with her extraordinary force, to set
fire to their supplies and cause general calamity.
> 6. Indirect tactics, efficiently applied, are
> inexhaustible as Heaven and Earth, unending as
> the flow of rivers and streams; like the sun and
> moon, they end but to begin anew; like the four
> seasons, they pass away to return once more.
Xena's army can be likened to the three-headed hound of Hades, Cerberus.
Cut off the left head, and the middle and right head counterattacks.
Cut off the right head, and the middle and left head counterattacks.
Cut off the middle head, and the right and left head counterattacks.
> 11. The direct and the indirect lead on to each
> other in turn. It is like moving in a circle--you never
> come to an end. Who can exhaust the possibilities
> of their combination?
Yet the object of war is swift victory, not clever and prolonged
maneuvers. A campaign that lasts into the harvest season will deplete
the treasury, and the sovereign will issue a mournful edict.
> 12. The onset of troops is like the rush of a torrent
> which will even roll stones along in its course.
Xena's army can be likened to water conforming itself to the shape of a
pitcher. Where the enemy is strong she withdraws. Where the enemy is
weak she presses him. Where the enemy matches her she engages him.
> 13. The quality of decision is like the well-timed
> swoop of a falcon which enables it to strike and
> destroy its victim.
Xena pretends dormancy, patiently waiting for the enemy's supremely
unprotected moment, then she strikes!
> 14. Therefore the good fighter will be terrible in
> his onset, and prompt in his decision.
The inferior commander is addicted to the advice of his lieutenants, and
dares not make a move without lengthy consultations. In a stalemate
Xena moves at random to shake loose opportunities like apples from a
tree, then she grabs them!
> 15. Energy may be likened to the bending of a
> crossbow; decision, to the releasing of a trigger.
Gentle pushes on a swing, well-timed, will get it moving fast. Wise
decisions in the field multiplies the effectiveness of Xena's small
force to match that of Caesar's numberless legions.
> 16. Amid the turmoil and tumult of battle, there
> may be seeming disorder and yet no real disorder
> at all; amid confusion and chaos, your array may
> be without head or tail, yet it will be proof against
> defeat.
When the enemy cannot discern the shape of your forces he is helpless to
formulate a counterblow.
> 17. Simulated disorder postulates perfect
> discipline, simulated fear postulates courage;
> simulated weakness postulates strength.
Xena pretends what she is not to entice the enemy into making a rash
advance.
> 19. Thus one who is skillful at keeping the enemy
> on the move maintains deceitful appearances,
> according to which the enemy will act. He
> sacrifices something, that the enemy may snatch
> at it.
Thus spake Xena: "The fish that nibbles at every bait is soon caught."
> 20. By holding out baits, he keeps him on the
> march; then with a body of picked men he lies in
> wait for him.
"Nothing like a good A.M. Bush to get the blood flowing!" --Xena, The
Prodigal.
> 21. The clever combatant looks to the effect of
> combined energy, and does not require too much
> from individuals. Hence his ability to pick out the
> right men and utilize combined energy.
In turn-of-the-century corporate circles this is called "Synergy."
Sharon Heintz
Just an add on to your recommendation.. also the "Art of Peace" by, and
forgive my spelling of the name, Moeribi Usehiba, the founder of Aikido :)
P, L, H :)
bookbu...@my-deja.com
K_P...@webtv.net (K'Prie) wrote:
BB:> > Here is an example of what is said in part of _The
> > Art of War_. Are there not many levels of
> > interpretation possible?
> > V. Energy
> > <snip>
> > > 5. In all fighting, the direct method may be used
> K'Prie
On the corporate battle field, wouldn't Zena be used or eliminated by
strategists who recognize agressive operators? From what I hear, Sun
Tzu could openly advocate his philosophy and prevail as a company man.
The question seems to be whether Sun Tzu's military strategies and
tactics reflects principles of a philosophy like Taoism.
bookburn
Looking at
K'Prie
Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999, 9:24am (PST+8)
From: bookbu...@my-deja.com
> On the corporate battle field, wouldn't Zena be
> used or eliminated by strategists who recognize
> agressive operators? From what I hear, Sun Tzu
> could openly advocate his philosophy and prevail
> as a company man.
TOP 14 Signs Xena Is Your Supervisor
1. A beautiful short-haired, blonde secretary in a backless chemise
takes dictation on a scroll.
2. Your assigned cubicle still has a few drops of your predecessor's
blood where they missed a spot.
3. Your company makes little ceramic jugs that burst into flames when
thrown.
4. The title of the sexual harrassment seminar is, "Are You Suicidal?"
5. The total quality slogan is, "Don't Be Sorry, Just Improve"
6. There is no number six.
7. The motivational slogan is, "Kill 'Em All!"
8. Reserved executive horse stalls.
9.. It's the only workplace in the world with pinups of the boss.
10. There are no days off
12. Instead of pencil-sharpeners there are sharpening stones.
13. The company picnic is always by a lake or a river that has a great
variety of fish.
14. The job interview lasts less than 20 seconds and you never forget
the experience.
> The question seems to be whether Sun Tzu's
> military strategies and tactics reflects principles of
> a philosophy like Taoism.
This is very apparent in Chapter IV on Dispositions, where Sun Tzu (who
was actually Xena, BTW, but I digress) explains that the excellent
commander subdues his enemy without fighting, and so he gains no
reputation for valor or tactical genius. Indeed, in verse 15 we read
"Those skilled in war cultivate the Tao, and are therefore able to
formulate victorious policies."
D. Henderson
><You are right on the mark. Sun Tzu intended that his book convey
><complex value and principle messages; therefore he used the military
><and combat as a metaphor only for this purpose. For over 2000 years Sun
><Tzu has been read literally. This is a serious misunderstanding of
><intent.
><
><
><>
><> What about the usefulness of learning to read at more than the literal
><> level, as allegory, moral fable, parable of experience, etc.?
><>
><> bookburn
><>
><> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
><> Before you buy.
><>
><
><
><Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
><Before you buy.
Erh, from what do you get inside information on Sun Tzu's intent?
IMO Sun Tzu is a model of conflict and THAT is mirrored in many
different things, not just military conflict, but ethical conflict,
political, martial arts, etc. There are very strong overtones of what
we might consider Taoist thought in there, but I don't know whether
that is so or if the Sun Tzu is drawing also on the same schools (Yin
Yang and others) that the Taoists also drew on.
The fact that is rooted in the military though, can be clearly seen in
the shifts that occured between the Sun Tzu and the Sun Pin.
I find Sawyer's translation the best in this regard, unlike my other
favorite, SB Griffith, he also draws on the Taoist texts to provide
the spiritual side and concepts. Cleary is good but Sawyer integrates
both Cleary and Griffith into a coherent whole.
--
! ?
Lao Wombat
me...@my-deja.com
of Tao, or whether it is a Taoist inspired work. Whichever, Sun Tzu
cannot be understood without the Tao.
K'Prie
me...@my-deja.com wrote:
> The only question that cannot be answered is whether Sun Tzu is a book
> of Tao, or whether it is a Taoist inspired work. Whichever, Sun Tzu
> cannot be understood without the Tao.
And the Tao cannot be understood by reading about it
or taking a college course or by discussing it on the
Usenet. It is only grasped by living it. To quote
Jimmy Swaggart, "I know it in my knower."
--
K'Prie
Woman awakening to her own Xena-consciousness
brings liberation.
Jaybuzin0000
> me...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> The only question that cannot be answered is whether Sun Tzu is a book
>> of Tao, or whether it is a Taoist inspired work. Whichever, Sun Tzu
>> cannot be understood without the Tao.
I've yet to read the sun-ster.
Nathan mentions him often enuf.
Perhaps sum-daze he'll visit\attack me?
>And the Tao cannot be understood by reading about it
>or taking a college course or by discussing it on the
>Usenet. It is only grasped by living it. To quote
>Jimmy Swaggart, "I know it in my knower."
he told that
to the hooker
who blew him in his blower?
-jest curious
>Woman awakening to her own Xena-consciousness
>brings liberation
man awakening to Unconsiousness
realizes an unconscious that is conscious?
"A master tailor doesn't cut." -Lao Tzu
-rumpled suit
but hey! my mother used to smoke.
All Hearts!
except fer the clubs-
{;-])))
K'Prie
Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999, 8:38pm (PST+8)
From: jaybuz...@cs.com (Jaybuzin0000)
>> It is only grasped by living it. To quote Jimmy
>> Swaggart, "I know it in my knower."
> he told that
> to the hooker
> who blew him in his blower?
Good thing they weren't caught having sex standing up, some parishoners
might have thought they were dancing.
K'Prie
--
Woman awakening to her own Xena-consciousness brings liberation.
D. Henderson
><
><
><>
><> IMO Sun Tzu is a model of conflict and THAT is mirrored in many
><> different things, not just military conflict, but ethical conflict,
><> political, martial arts, etc.
><
><It is a model of achieving objectives without conflict.
The object is to resolve conflict. If there was no conflict, there
would be no objective.
"War is a matter of vital importance to the state; a matter of life
and death; the road either to survival or to ruin. Hence it is
imperitive that it be studied thoroughly."
Do you think that might be why they called it "The Art of War"?
><
><There are very strong overtones of what
><> we might consider Taoist thought in there, but I don't know whether
><> that is so or if the Sun Tzu is drawing also on the same schools (Yin
><> Yang and others) that the Taoists also drew on.
><
><When Sun Tzu was written The Tao was the unquestioned gospel of the
><day. He would have been unable to separate himself from it.
Warring States period? There was no unquestioned gospel in that day.
You had mo-ists, Tao-ists, Confucianists, Legalists, etc.
><>
><> The fact that is rooted in the military though, can be clearly seen in
><> the shifts that occured between the Sun Tzu and the Sun Pin.
><
><I don't understand your point here. Sun Pin is military. Sun Tzu is
><anti-military.
Both describe concepts in terms of tactical application of forces that
changed over the period from the Sun Tzu (infantry and chariot mostly)
to Infantry and Cavalry in Sun Pin.
><> I find Sawyer's translation the best in this regard, unlike my other
><> favorite, SB Griffith, he also draws on the Taoist texts to provide
><> the spiritual side and concepts. Cleary is good but Sawyer integrates
><> both Cleary and Griffith into a coherent whole.
><
><None of these compare to the clean work of Giles. Sawyer is dreadful.>
Why is Sawyer dreadful?
And have you read all of these?
><
><Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
><Before you buy.
--
! ?
Lao Wombat
davidgj...@my-deja.com
>
> IMO Sun Tzu is a model of conflict and THAT is mirrored in many
> different things, not just military conflict, but ethical conflict,
> political, martial arts, etc.
It is a model of achieving objectives without conflict.
There are very strong overtones of what
> we might consider Taoist thought in there, but I don't know whether
> that is so or if the Sun Tzu is drawing also on the same schools (Yin
> Yang and others) that the Taoists also drew on.
When Sun Tzu was written The Tao was the unquestioned gospel of the
day. He would have been unable to separate himself from it.
>
> The fact that is rooted in the military though, can be clearly seen in
> the shifts that occured between the Sun Tzu and the Sun Pin.
I don't understand your point here. Sun Pin is military. Sun Tzu is
anti-military.
>
> I find Sawyer's translation the best in this regard, unlike my other
> favorite, SB Griffith, he also draws on the Taoist texts to provide
> the spiritual side and concepts. Cleary is good but Sawyer integrates
> both Cleary and Griffith into a coherent whole.
None of these compare to the clean work of Giles. Sawyer is dreadful.>
davidgj...@my-deja.com
> ><It is a model of achieving objectives without conflict.
> would be no objective.
You need to revisit the Tao.
> "War is a matter of vital importance to the state; a matter of life
> and death; the road either to survival or to ruin. Hence it is
> imperitive that it be studied thoroughly."
"War" is a mis-translation.
> Do you think that might be why they called it "The Art of War"?
> ><
> ><When Sun Tzu was written The Tao was the unquestioned gospel of the
> ><day. He would have been unable to separate himself from it.
> Warring States period? There was no unquestioned gospel in that day.
> You had mo-ists, Tao-ists, Confucianists, Legalists, etc.
You do not know your ancient Chinese history.
> ><> The fact that is rooted in the military though, can be clearly
seen in
> ><> the shifts that occured between the Sun Tzu and the Sun Pin.
> ><
> ><I don't understand your point here. Sun Pin is military. Sun Tzu is
> ><anti-military.
> Both describe concepts in terms of tactical application of forces that
> changed over the period from the Sun Tzu (infantry and chariot mostly)
> to Infantry and Cavalry in Sun Pin.
I repeat....Sun Pin is about conflict and violence. It is the
Clausewitz of two millennia ago. It is not Sun Tzu.
> ><None of these compare to the clean work of Giles. Sawyer is
dreadful.>
> Why is Sawyer dreadful?
> And have you read all of these?
Yes. Sawyer invents Sun Tzu comments when he can't find any to support
his absurd analyses.
rick
>
> Group: alt.philosophy.taoism
>
> > his book convey complex value and principle
> > messages; therefore he used the military and
> > combat as a metaphor only for this purpose. For
> > over 2000 years Sun Tzu has been read literally.
> > This is a serious misunderstanding of intent.
>
> purveyors of martial wisdom had very practical reasons to support them
> as advisors: To win wars. Sun Tzu bubbled to the top in fame because
> his concise 13 Chapters were the most effective methods, proven time and
> again in the many battles of the Warring States period. It is also
> interesting to note that Japan, which possessed the Art of War, did
> precisely the opposite of what was counselled by Sun Tzu during their
> prosecution of the Pacific war--perhaps the Japanese took it as metaphor
> and considered it out of date.
>
>
Perhaps you should have answered this one as Questar
it would have sounded more believable.
You have made the K'Prie character too much of an air head
for such a interest in Japanese history and Sun Tzu.
rick
>
> Despite their high-falutin' name for it: "Greater East Asia
> Co-Prosperity Sphere" the Japanese empire from 1941 to 1945 was
> primarily concerned with carrying their loot (mostly oil) back to the
> Fatherland,
Shouldn't that have been motherland?
A feminist needs to maintain perspective or
'her' readers will suspect 'her' sincerety.
D. Henderson
><
><> ><It is a model of achieving objectives without conflict.
><> The object is to resolve conflict. If there was no conflict, there
><> would be no objective.
><
><
><You need to revisit the Tao.
Do you really think conflict lies outside the Tao?
><> "War is a matter of vital importance to the state; a matter of life
><> and death; the road either to survival or to ruin. Hence it is
><> imperitive that it be studied thoroughly."
><
><"War" is a mis-translation.
Then its one used by Giles.
><> Do you think that might be why they called it "The Art of War"?
><
><> ><
><> ><When Sun Tzu was written The Tao was the unquestioned gospel of the
><> ><day. He would have been unable to separate himself from it.
><> Warring States period? There was no unquestioned gospel in that day.
><> You had mo-ists, Tao-ists, Confucianists, Legalists, etc.
><
><You do not know your ancient Chinese history.
We differ.
I rely on Graham, "Disputers of the Tao", "China's Cultural
Achivements During the Warring States" not sure of the title.
"Sources of Chinese Tradition" "The Chinese Machiavelli" "Ancient
China in Transition" and "The Cambridge History of China: Qin and
Han"
><
><> ><> The fact that is rooted in the military though, can be clearly
><seen in
><> ><> the shifts that occured between the Sun Tzu and the Sun Pin.
><> ><
><> ><I don't understand your point here. Sun Pin is military. Sun Tzu is
><> ><anti-military.
><> Both describe concepts in terms of tactical application of forces that
><> changed over the period from the Sun Tzu (infantry and chariot mostly)
><> to Infantry and Cavalry in Sun Pin.
><
><I repeat....Sun Pin is about conflict and violence. It is the
><Clausewitz of two millennia ago. It is not Sun Tzu.
><
><
><> ><None of these compare to the clean work of Giles. Sawyer is
><dreadful.>
><> Why is Sawyer dreadful?
><> And have you read all of these?
><
><Yes. Sawyer invents Sun Tzu comments when he can't find any to support
><his absurd analyses.
Examples?
><
><Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
><Before you buy.
--
! ?
Lao Wombat
Rob Lent
I forget the author's name, however.
Rob Lent
davidgj...@my-deja.com
should avoid contact and go into defensive mode. Then, if attacked,
they will be able to defeat the aggressor. He says Master Sun "clearly
advocated" defense as a military strategy and that one wins through
strategic use of offense and defense. Master Sun said nothing of the
sort. There are dozens of such examples.
Jaybuzin0000
[...s]
>You need to revisit the Tao.
I think I'm gunna enjoy this thread, lots!
Welcome to the grove.
-in search of
bottomless cup of coffee
on a berry bright Solstice morn-
{:-])))
K'Prie
davidgj...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Sawyer says that when confronted with a superior opponent, commanders
> should avoid contact and go into defensive mode. Then, if attacked,
> they will be able to defeat the aggressor. He says Master Sun "clearly
> advocated" defense as a military strategy and that one wins through
> strategic use of offense and defense. Master Sun said nothing of the
> sort. There are dozens of such examples.
You avoid defeat by defense, you attain victory with offence.
IV:5. "Security against defeat implies defensive tactics;
ability to defeat the enemy means taking the offensive." --Sun Tzu
--
K'Prie
Woman awakening to her own Xena-consciousness
brings liberation.
davidgj...@my-deja.com
davidgj...@my-deja.com
But really, I would prefer to be less bound than what is suggested by
either of these images.
>
> Welcome to the grove.
>
> -in search of
> bottomless cup of coffee
> on a berry bright Solstice morn-
> {:-])))
>
D. Henderson
wrote:
><That is an excellent book. I also like "Zen in the Martial Arts" as well.
><I forget the author's name, however.
><
><Rob Lent
Joe Hyams, studied with Bruce Lee and others. Some have criticized it
on the MA ngs as shallow IIRC,.but I liked it.
But, by far the best book is The Romance of the Three Kingdoms which
is full of the exploits and strategems of the Taoist sage Zhuge Liang
(Kungming).
Douglas Henderson
davidgj...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Sawyer says that when confronted with a superior opponent, commanders
> should avoid contact and go into defensive mode. Then, if attacked,
> they will be able to defeat the aggressor. He says Master Sun "clearly
> advocated" defense as a military strategy and that one wins through
> strategic use of offense and defense. Master Sun said nothing of the
> sort. There are dozens of such examples.
>
> > ><Yes. Sawyer invents Sun Tzu comments when he can't find any to
> support
> > ><his absurd analyses.
> > Examples?
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
The following are from the Giles translation
The general who is skilled in defense hides in the most secret recesses of
the earth; he who is skilled in attack flashes forth from the topmost
heights of heaven. Thus on the one hand we have ability to protect
ourselves; on the other, a victory that is complete.
***
Hence the general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know what
to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know
what to attack
The former is almost word for word the same as Sawyer
For the latter the same
K'Prie
Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999, 11:52pm (PST+8)
From: davidgj...@my-deja.com
Re: Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" - an excellent book ...
> I may well be in the "grove", or I could as easily
> be in the groove. But really, I would prefer to be
> less bound than what is suggested by either of
> these images.
People who shore up falsehoods as truths build walls to protect their
"truth" from outside contamination. Circles wall us off from ourselves.
K'Prie
--
bookbu...@my-deja.com
davidgj...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I may well be in the "grove", or I could as easily be in the groove.
> But really, I would prefer to be less bound than what is suggested by
> either of these images.
Surely not "bound" in any promethean sense. My experience has been that
APT respects boundaries, and I'm sure we all are aware of our
limitations.
bookburn
> >
> > Welcome to the grove.
> >
> > -in search of
> > bottomless cup of coffee
> > on a berry bright Solstice morn-
> > {:-])))
> >
>
davidgj...@my-deja.com
there.
Commanders who hide do not win.
> > Sawyer says that when confronted with a superior opponent,
commanders
> > should avoid contact and go into defensive mode. Then, if attacked,
> > they will be able to defeat the aggressor. He says Master Sun
"clearly
> > advocated" defense as a military strategy and that one wins through
> > strategic use of offense and defense. Master Sun said nothing of the
> > sort. There are dozens of such examples.
> >
> > > ><Yes. Sawyer invents Sun Tzu comments when he can't find any to
> > support
> > > ><his absurd analyses.
> > > Examples?
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
>
> The following are from the Giles translation
>
> The general who is skilled in defense hides in the most secret
recesses of
> the earth; he who is skilled in attack flashes forth from the topmost
> heights of heaven. Thus on the one hand we have ability to protect
> ourselves; on the other, a victory that is complete.
>
> ***
>
> Hence the general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know
what
> to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know
> what to attack
>
> The former is almost word for word the same as Sawyer
>
> For the latter the same
>
>
Jaybuzin0000
>jay extended a virtual hand:
>I may well be in the "grove", or I could as easily be in the groove.
Bamboo shoots-without-shooting.
Slong as yer wheels don't hit a rut,
it sounds kinda groovy, two-me.
>But really, I would prefer to be less bound than what is suggested by
>either of these images.
okay.
how about: Unplugged?
>> Welcome to the grove.
>>
>> -in search of
>> bottomless cup of coffee
>> on a berry bright Solstice morn-
putting folk songs
on the merry spindle
and revving up calliope
-from the conscessionstand
next to the happy fish bridge
{:-])))
Jaybuzin0000
>dgj wrote:
[...]
Sorry for throwing off the topic of this thread.
I was enjoying the chariot ride. Please ignore me.
>> But really, I would prefer to be less bound than what is suggested by
>> either of these images.
>
>Surely not "bound" in any promethean sense. My experience has been that
>APT respects boundaries, and I'm sure we all are aware of our
>limitations.
the sage is Unlimited!
>bookburn
knowing boundaries
but unknowing that
which is unbounded
-an unreal taoist
{:-])))
Douglas Henderson
Tell that to Vo Nguyen Giap.
shitskoi.
--
Douglas Henderson
Jaybuzin0000
>dh wrote:
[...s]
>You are not alone in seeing what is not there, and not seeing what is
>there.
>
>Commanders who hide do not win.
david, are you suggesting
that the Sun Tzu is an esoteric writing?
I.e. having to do with an internal war?
I'm a bit confused,
which is nothing new.
>> > Sawyer says that when confronted with a superior opponent,
>commanders
>> > should avoid contact and go into defensive mode. Then, if attacked,
>> > they will be able to defeat the aggressor. He says Master Sun
>"clearly
>> > advocated" defense as a military strategy and that one wins through
>> > strategic use of offense and defense. Master Sun said nothing of the
>> > sort. There are dozens of such examples.
>> The following are from the Giles translation
>>
>> The general who is skilled in defense hides in the most secret
>recesses of
>> the earth; he who is skilled in attack flashes forth from the topmost
>> heights of heaven. Thus on the one hand we have ability to protect
>> ourselves; on the other, a victory that is complete.
is this, assuming it's Sun Tzu,
a kinda of nei-tan type thingy, iyo?
>> Hence the general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know
>what
>> to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know
>> what to attack
is the resistence movement also within?
>> The former is almost word for word the same as Sawyer
>>
>> For the latter the same
someone get me a ladder!
-tia
{:-])))
D. Henderson
That for me is the great thing about old master sun. His models work
on so many different levels. On the level of nations, and on the
levels of individuals and on the level of internal working. Where
ever there is a conflict his indirect path works.
As I have said, the concept of Yin Yang permeates his works but I have
more reading to do as to whether his writings are founded in Taoism or
if the Yin Yang school that fed the Taoists also fed him.
One problem is his dates, which are like those of Lao Tzu, in other
words, either Spring and Autumn or Warring States. He may come before
or after Lao Tzu depending on what dates you pick. Also like Lao Tzu,
there is debate as to whether he as an individual existed, or if the
book is a compendium of wise sayings.
Another problem is the translation of certain terms rooted in Yin-Yang
symbolism. Sometimes a phrase is translated that one should camp on
the "sunny" hillsides, sometimes the same phrase is translated as
"favorable" IIRC both depending on your interpretation of Yang at that
given moment.
But his sayings have permeated Chinese military writing since then.
He is cited in the Romance of the THree Kingdoms, Mao-Tse Tung
paraphrased him and Giap followed him.
I have about six different translations at this point, although there
are more.
lawrence day
Yo all,
Just let me add into this discussion that the theories also apply to
playing chess. I've consistently taught 'yang' methods to 'yin' personalities
and vice versa. fwiw,
--lawrence
bookbu...@my-deja.com
> > ><is this, assuming it's Sun Tzu,a kinda of nei-tan type thingy,
> > ><iyo?
> > ><>> Hence the general is skillful in attack whose opponent does
> > ><>> not know what to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose
> > ><>> opponent does not know what to attack
> > ><is the resistence movement also within?
> > ><>> The former is almost word for word the same as Sawyer
> > ><>> For the latter the same
> > ><someone get me a ladder!
> > ><-tia
> > ><{:-])))
> > That for me is the great thing about old master sun. His models
> > work on so many different levels. On the level of nations, and on
> >the levels of individuals and on the level of internal working.
> > Where ever there is a conflict his indirect path works.
> Yo all,
> Just let me add into this discussion that the theories also apply to
> playing chess. I've consistently taught 'yang' methods to 'yin'
> personalities and vice versa. fwiw,
> --lawrence
I've been wondering about "end games," whether there comes a moment
when, after an apparently favorable series of moves, you are out of
position and an opponent has an opportunity to turn the situation
around. What about those communist chess players, seemingly in
disarray after challenge by the west, are they still playing to win
using subtle, indirect methods; win the war after losing battles?
bookburn
bookbu...@my-deja.com
> Sorry for throwing off the topic of this thread.
> I was enjoying the chariot ride. Please ignore me.
> >> But really, I would prefer to be less bound than what is suggested
> >> by either of these images.
> >Surely not "bound" in any promethean sense. My experience has been
> >that APT respects boundaries, and I'm sure we all are aware of our
> >limitations.
> the sage is Unlimited!
Far out, man!
> >bookburn
> knowing boundaries
> but unknowing that
> which is unbounded
> -an unreal taoist
> {:-])))
What is APT here (pun intended) is "boundless" as the notion
of "strife" and "the Boundless," Anaximander's version of yin-yang. The
Boundless is the infinite fund of material extending in all directions
from which the world arises and returns (in B. Russell, Wisdom of the
West). Aw Sum.
Those practical Romans had a god named Terminus who apparently ruled
over all boundaries and measurements--obviously not a Taoist.
Regards, bookburn
bookbu...@my-deja.com
K_P...@webtv.net (K'Prie) wrote:
> Group: alt.philosophy.taoism
> Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999, 11:52pm (PST+8)
> From: davidgj...@my-deja.com
> Re: Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" - an excellent book ...
>
> > less bound than what is suggested by either of
> > these images.
> People who shore up falsehoods as truths build walls to protect their
> "truth" from outside contamination. Circles wall us off from
> ourselves.
I like the idea of "grove" in Hesse's _The Glass Beads Game_, where the
elite student hears about a master monk, travels a great distance on
foot to appear there, sees little going on around a bamboo enclosed
fish pool, but evidently passes a brief examination by being prepared
to stay or leave.
After staying for some important lessons, he leaves to become head of
the whole chess playing musical academy, but when he invites the monk
to come for his installment as the Grand Master, the monk does not
reply.
> K'Prie
> --
> Woman awakening to her own Xena-consciousness brings liberation.
>
>
CAJ
consider shortening the book of the dead? what is life without death,
peace without war, dark without light?
K'Prie
Date: Sat, Dec 25, 1999, 1:54am (PST+3)
From: Cryst...@webtv.net (CAJ)
Life without the boundary of death to give it brevity and urgency would
be dull. If we extended our life indefinitely by medical advances, we
would try to eliminate the possibility of car accidents or murder, so we
would never leave our house.
Peace without war would permit evil states such as Nazi Germany to
oppress their people and commit genocide without an answer by the family
of nations.
K'Prie
--
My node on the Grid:
http://community.webtv.net/K_Prie/1
lawrence day
This also happens in middlegames. Caught up in the enthusiasm of pressing
forward one can easily overextend one's position. A couple of World champs
who specialized in defensive technique and refuting overplays were Emanual
Lasker and
Tigran Petrosian, both endgame wizards.
> What about those communist chess players, seemingly in
> disarray after challenge by the west, are they still playing to win
> using subtle, indirect methods; win the war after losing battles?
The famous 'Soviet School' specialized in counterattacks,
blockading the centre and allowing one's opponent to press forward
on one side of the board before counterattacking on the other.
The cavalry becomes very important. Military strategists who understood
the subtle use of apparent retreat were General Kuznetsov (vs Napolean) and
iirc Alexander the Great.
One way this strategy might be applied within an individual is in problem
solving,
like say 'Where did I put my thingamajig??'. Active conscious thinking about
the
question (ie, yang) may lead to dead ends, but retreating (yin) and not
thinking about it (as in 'sleeping on it') may allow the answer to appear
effortlessly in the morning.
--lawrence
Jaybuzin0000
>CAJ wrote:
>Re: Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" - an excellent book ...
>> every element of life is contained in this book,
>> should we not also consider shortening the book
>> of the dead? what is life without death, peace
>> without war, dark without light?
my first thought
was how the TTC and the Sun Tzu
may be complementing one another?
i.e. short\long?
I've not heard, however, that the ST is
a book reknown for its Tao Chia allignment.
The analects may revolve around Tao,
and yet somehow it isn't Tao Chia?
Having not read either, I can't say much.
Perhaps those who've read both can extrapolate
the con\di-vergence between, say, the CT?
-tia
>Life without the boundary of death to give it brevity and urgency would
>be dull.
Two-me;
perhaps this is true, or perhaps k'not.
As an immortal\eternal One;
life\death is of little consequence.
> If we extended our life indefinitely by medical advances, we
>would try to eliminate the possibility of car accidents or murder, so we
>would never leave our house.
are you serious?
I doubt that the fear would grow.
You could be right tho, in that sum opposite may arise.
Probably, given Lao-tzu's Tao, this eventuality
would not appear until an extreme was reached.
We would try to eliminate car accidents, etc.,
as a means to extend life; not via
the other way around, imso.
>Peace without war would permit evil states such as Nazi Germany to
>oppress their people and commit genocide without an answer by the family
>of nations.
Is it your logic, or has my brain slipped a neuron?
How is genocide a form of peace?
Peace would be obtained when folks ceased
to place a value upon attaining peace. Yet,
far prior to that ideal even coming close,
a return to counting on knots is necessitated.
every other odd;
semi-Unreal
{:-])))
CAJ
as well.
in the following ways:
1. Intention (mindfullness?)
2. Preparation (purpose?)
3. Action (non-action?)
I remain a most respectful student,
bookbu...@my-deja.com
lawrence day <ld...@pathcom.com> wrote:
> bookbu...@my-deja.com wrote:
<snip>
> > > Yo all,
> > > Just let me add into this discussion that the theories also
> > > apply to playing chess. I've consistently taught 'yang' methods
> > > to 'yin' personalities and vice versa. fwiw,
> > > --lawrence
> > I've been wondering about "end games," whether there comes a moment
> > when, after an apparently favorable series of moves, you are out of
> > position and an opponent has an opportunity to turn the situation
> > around.
> This also happens in middlegames. Caught up in the enthusiasm of
> pressing forward one can easily overextend one's position. A couple
> of World champs who specialized in defensive technique and refuting
> overplays were Emanual Lasker and Tigran Petrosian, both endgame
> wizards.
> > What about those communist chess players, seemingly in
> > disarray after challenge by the west, are they still playing to win
> > using subtle, indirect methods; win the war after losing battles?
> The famous 'Soviet School' specialized in counterattacks,
> blockading the centre and allowing one's opponent to press forward
> on one side of the board before counterattacking on the other.
> The cavalry becomes very important. Military strategists who
> understood the subtle use of apparent retreat were General Kuznetsov
> (vs Napolean) and iirc Alexander the Great.
In Tolstoy's _War and Peace_a strange mystical atmosphere seems to
account for happenings, like when Pierre stumbles during a duel and
shoots his oponent against his wishes, then walks untouched through a
bombardment at the front in his top hat; Kutuzov, the rough block of a
general, weeps when he hears the strategy of retreating and burning
Moscow because he knows it must happen. Trapped Napoleon in the Russian
winter, didn't he? Tolstoy adds a special last part to the novel
explaining what happened, but it's as if he, too, is part of the
mystery. But I digress unless someone can help explain the Taoism of
it.
> One way this strategy might be applied within an individual is in
> problem solving, like say 'Where did I put my thingamajig??'. Active
> conscious thinking about the question (ie, yang) may lead to dead
> ends, but retreating (yin) and not thinking about it (as in 'sleeping
> on it') may allow the answer to appear effortlessly in the morning.
> lawrence
> > bookburn
lisa
><snip>
>
>In Tolstoy's _War and Peace_a strange mystical atmosphere seems to
>account for happenings, like when Pierre stumbles during a duel and
>shoots his oponent against his wishes, then walks untouched through a
>bombardment at the front in his top hat; Kutuzov, the rough block of a
>general, weeps when he hears the strategy of retreating and burning
>Moscow because he knows it must happen. Trapped Napoleon in the Russian
>winter, didn't he? Tolstoy adds a special last part to the novel
>explaining what happened, but it's as if he, too, is part of the
>mystery. But I digress unless someone can help explain the Taoism of
>it.
>
Who else but taoists see beauty in war? Who else uses straw dogs for fancy
battle maneuvers?
Who else sees the mystical beauty of walking through the enemy unharmed?
Yet, is it part of daoism to want/need to win?
How about winning, whatever it takes?
What is winning?
rgds,
lisa
bookbu...@my-deja.com
The character Pierre already had withdrawn from the competition for his
lady love, yet was entrained by some greater design. In this
perspective, it seems our will is just a momentary illusion. But as
Pierre does win his love in the end by acting forthrightly, it appears
he might have avoided a lot of problems by acting strongly in the
beginning.
bookburn
> How about winning, whatever it takes?
> What is winning?
> rgds,
> lisa
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jaybuzin0000
>lf wrote:
>>bb wrote:
[...]
>> >Moscow because he knows it must happen. Trapped Napoleon in the
>Russian
>> >winter, didn't he? Tolstoy adds a special last part to the novel
>> >explaining what happened, but it's as if he, too, is part of the
>> >mystery. But I digress unless someone can help explain the Taoism of
>> >it.
I think the famous Taoist, Kenny Rogers,
sang about it in _The Gambler_?
>> Who else but taoists see beauty in war? Who else uses straw dogs for
>< fancy battle maneuvers? Who else sees the mystical beauty of walking
>> through the enemy unharmed?
hmmm.
I saw a movie recently called _Wyatt Earp_
that sounded kinda like it. Maybe Doc,
as portrayed in that movie, was a Taoist?
>> Yet, is it part of daoism to want/need to win?
Lao-tzu talks about greater\lesser states.
A state may lose a war but win something else.
Depends on priorities. Tao Chia does seem
to speak of "long life."
>The character Pierre already had withdrawn from the competition for his
>lady love, yet was entrained by some greater design. In this
>perspective, it seems our will is just a momentary illusion. But as
>Pierre does win his love in the end by acting forthrightly, it appears
>he might have avoided a lot of problems by acting strongly in the
>beginning.
could he actually have done other?
Kuo Hsiang suggests things cannot be otherwise.
>> How about winning, whatever it takes?
>> What is winning?
Winning has to do with a type of view.
When us\them is no longer seen,
when this\that are no longer opposed;
it could be said that one has won\One
whatever game it was?
-@three
in the morning
{:-])))
davidgj...@my-deja.com
then I suggest you do not offer to prove (or disprove) a principle by
the evidence of one incident.
>
> Tell that to Vo Nguyen Giap.
>
> shitskoi.
> --
> Douglas Henderson
>
davidgj...@my-deja.com
"war" is a mental or intellectual exercise? If that is your question,
then I would say Sun Tzu was speaking of real world engagements...not
intellectualizing about events. But perhaps I miss your point.
davidgj...@my-deja.com
shares with Confucism the belief that war occupies a position on the
social continuum....that events swing from "peace" to "war" with
inevitability. The Tao though makes it clear one should do what one can
to reduce or limit the time, activity, loss or importance of the war
phase.
On your second point, the first issue to dwell upon is the nature of
"win". To start, you must move away from Western win-lose dualism in my
view.
>
> Who else but taoists see beauty in war? Who else uses straw dogs for
fancy
> battle maneuvers?
> Who else sees the mystical beauty of walking through the enemy
unharmed?
>
> Yet, is it part of daoism to want/need to win?
>
> How about winning, whatever it takes?
> What is winning?
>
> rgds,
> lisa
davidgj...@my-deja.com
millions dead and wounded, the great losses and tragedies caused by the
second world war. How can one think that was in any way a solution?
> Peace without war would permit evil states such as Nazi Germany to
> oppress their people and commit genocide without an answer by the
family
> of nations.
>
> K'Prie
> --
> My node on the Grid:
> http://community.webtv.net/K_Prie/1
>
>
D. Henderson
><Sorry....this means nothing to me. If this is a "real world" reference
><then I suggest you do not offer to prove (or disprove) a principle by
><the evidence of one incident.
><>
><> Tell that to Vo Nguyen Giap.
><>
><> shitskoi.
><> --
><> Douglas Henderson
><>
><
><
><Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
><Before you buy.
There was that little incident called the Indochina/Vietnam war from
about 1947 to 1975. You may have heard of it.
Esther Jacobs
>Life without the boundary of death to give it brevity and urgency would
>be dull.
You tell them sweetheart.
> If we extended our life indefinitely by medical advances, we
>would try to eliminate the possibility of car accidents or murder, so we
>would never leave our house.
That is so true.
>
>Peace without war would permit evil states such as Nazi Germany to
>oppress their people and commit genocide without an answer by the family
>of nations.
>
Oh honey, I just love how deep and pithy
you can be on your replys. When are
we going to meet? I just have to have you.
Regards, Esther
________________________
* Love does what Hate can not *
>http://community.webtv.net/K_Prie/1
PS. your photo is wonderfully cute.
I would love to kiss those lips.
K'Prie
Date: Mon, Dec 27, 1999, 1:35pm (PST+8)
From: davidgj...@my-deja.com
>>Peace without war would permit evil states such
>> as Nazi Germany to oppress their people and
>> commit genocide without an answer by the family
>> of nations.
> But it was this very mind-set that Sun Tzu
> opposed. Consider the millions dead and
> wounded, the great losses and tragedies caused
> by the second world war. How can one think that
> was in any way a solution?
Certainly the 26.6 million Soviet fatalities on the eastern front, the 6
million murdered Jews in Europe, and the 7.8 million Chinese civilians
slain by Imperial Japan, were not due to a bloody Allied "solution," but
can be laid right at the door of the Axis "problem."
Jaybuzin0000
>I understand neither esoteric nor internal. Are you asking if sun tzu's
>"war" is a mental or intellectual exercise?
I thought you were saying
that Sun Tzu is not about any real "war."
Apparently you are simply not in agreement
with how a particular writer "translates"?
Such a situation arises with the TTC at times.
Folks of a traditional\classical Tao Chia inclination
take offense at several of the modern
interpretations\interpolations, especially
when they are presented as translations.
Is your gripe along those lines?
Was there any demographic reason
why the translation was faulty? Excuses
have been made for "unacceptable" versions
of the TTC, based on "political correctness";
i.e. to say anything at all, it had to be xyz.
I can't imagine such a problem with the ST.
>If that is your question,
>then I would say Sun Tzu was speaking of real world engagements...not
>intellectualizing about events.
>But perhaps I miss your point.
no.
But I think I may be missing yours entirely.
When you said that:
>> >Commanders who hide do not win.
I thought maybe there was something else
involved beneath the apparent\obvious
situation of the situation.
never mind tho.
I'll just watch the fireworks.
{:-])))
davidgj...@my-deja.com
but which generated some many wonderful new Canadian citizens. For the
latter, we thank you.
> ><>
> ><> Tell that to Vo Nguyen Giap.
davidgj...@my-deja.com
of the author to speak of "war". My book will make all of this quite
clear.
> no.
> But I think I may be missing yours entirely.
> When you said that:
> >> >Commanders who hide do not win.
> I thought maybe there was something else
> involved beneath the apparent\obvious
> situation of the situation.
>
> never mind tho.
> I'll just watch the fireworks.
> {:-])))
>
D. Henderson
Ohh, you writing a BOOK! All becomes clear. Good-bye.
Jaybuzin0000
>jay had written:
>"Art of War" was not part of the original title,
So it was simply called, the Sun Tzu?
>nor was it the intent
>of the author to speak of "war".
what was his intent?
> My book will make all of this quite clear.
ah-ha! Teh plot thickens
as muddy water begins to settle.
Can you give us a sneak-peak?
>> I'll just watch the fireworks.
-thanx.
{:-])))
davidgj...@my-deja.com
>
> >"Art of War" was not part of the original title,
>
> So it was simply called, the Sun Tzu?
Yes. Books were given only the name of their author. I don't know how
the Analects or TTC fit into this. They are also likely later
inventions. Anyone know?
>
> >nor was it the intent
> >of the author to speak of "war".
>
> what was his intent?
To define how the affairs of state could be conducted with minimal cost
and loss.
> > My book will make all of this quite clear.
>
> ah-ha! Teh plot thickens
> as muddy water begins to settle.
> Can you give us a sneak-peak?
See above for sneak-peek. I am working on final edit as we chat. Then
in new year, will seek publisher.
chino...@my-deja.com
davidgj...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> > >"Art of War" was not part of the original title,
> >
> > So it was simply called, the Sun Tzu?
>
> Yes.
yes.
>Books were given only the name of their author.
no.
some books, but not all.
especially where multiple texts were attributed to a single author,
each text carried its own name.
made easier the distinguishing of
t'his from t'hat
(don'tcha no).
>I don't know how
> the Analects or TTC fit into this.
they do not, and did not,
for "this" is predicated
upon an erroneous proposition.
things were also loose enuf
in them bygone daze o' your
for some texts to carry multiple names.
thus, the TTC
also be known
as the lao tzu.
>They are also likely later
> inventions. Anyone know?
yes, ah does;
and no,
daze is not
-- not anymore so
than names such as
"lao tzu" or "chuang tzu",
anyway, that is....
> > >nor was it the intent
> > >of the author to speak of "war".
yet neither (and hardly) was it his intent **not** to speak
thereof.
and indeed,
mr. sun had **much** to say
on the manner of the conduct
of armed conflict
should it come to that.
> > what was his intent?
who can read minds
millenia after de fact?!
what can be spoken of
is only
what characters comprise the text
attributed to one mr. sun
and what shades of meaning
might **reasonably** be wrung
from out of them.
> To define how the affairs of state could be conducted with minimal
cost
> and loss.
including (and especially):
WAR,
& its avoidance.
unless we do not share the same text...
or...
unless one considers all the soldier-talk therein
solely and exclusively
meta-phor-ic-al in nature.
> > > My book will make all of this quite clear.
eye sea...
> > ah-ha! Teh plot thickens
> > as muddy water begins to settle.
> > Can you give us a sneak-peak?
>
> See above for sneak-peek. I am working on final edit as we chat. Then
> in new year, will seek publisher.
ah...
and when it comes
to sneak-peeks
toward yer book on
the Art of War
would you agree that
ming2 qiang1 yi4 duo3,
an4 jian4 nan2 fang2?
chino
chino...@my-deja.com
davidgj...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > ><It is a model of achieving objectives without conflict.
> > The object is to resolve conflict. If there was no conflict, there
> > would be no objective.
>
> You need to revisit the Tao.
>
> > "War is a matter of vital importance to the state; a matter of life
> > and death; the road either to survival or to ruin. Hence it is
> > imperitive that it be studied thoroughly."
>
> "War" is a mis-translation.
i would be fascinated to see
what you suggest
as the **correct** translation.
and to see on what basis
you so assert (i.e.,
where'd ya un-learn
yer wenyanwen?)
> > Do you think that might be why they called it "The Art of War"?
>
> > ><
> > ><When Sun Tzu was written The Tao was the unquestioned gospel of
the
> > ><day. He would have been unable to separate himself from it.
> > Warring States period? There was no unquestioned gospel in that
day.
> > You had mo-ists, Tao-ists, Confucianists, Legalists, etc.
>
> You do not know your ancient Chinese history.
he knows it fair well, imo,
whereas with you, good sir, 'twould seem:
you do not know your ancient chinese philosophy.
tao was no "unquestioned gospel of the day";
tao was (and is)
an empty signifier, a blank sheet,
upon each and every contending school
projected its very own variant view.
what a confucian understood by "tao"
overlapped with but varied from
what a mohist understood by "tao"
which in turn again
overlapped with but varied from
what a taoist understood by "tao"
and so on
and so on
and so forth.
even within
that later-constructed category
we now use to look back
retrospectively-wise
the taoists à la lao tzu
and those à la chuang tzu
and the neo-taoists later
and so forth
all held subtly differing
views of "tao".
chino
"a mind is a terrible thing to waste"
D. Henderson
><Ah yes. The US event that caused so many horrendous and useless deaths,
><but which generated some many wonderful new Canadian citizens. For the
><latter, we thank you.
><
><> ><>
><> ><> Tell that to Vo Nguyen Giap.
><> There was that little incident called the Indochina/Vietnam war from
><> about 1947 to 1975. You may have heard of it.
><> --
><> ! ?
><> Lao Wombat
><>
><
><
><Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
><Before you buy.
Oh, yes, the American event that was abetted by the British and
Chinese and perpetuated by the French from the 1860's to 1954.
Thought without learning is perilous.
knock, knock, anyone home?
Douglas Henderson
davidgj...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > >"Art of War" was not part of the original title,
> >
> > So it was simply called, the Sun Tzu?
>
> Yes. Books were given only the name of their author. I don't know how
> the Analects or TTC fit into this. They are also likely later
> inventions. Anyone know?
>
In the late first century BC the scholar Liu Hsiang noted an 'Art of War'
by Sun Tzu in three scrolls and the former Han historian noted "The Art of
War of Sun Tzu of Wu" in eighty-two chapters.
So the term, "The Art of War" in referring to the Book is of early
provenance. The reference of Sima Qian begins "Sun Tzu was a native of
Ch'i who by means of his book on the art of war secured an audience" with
the King of Wu.
>
> > >nor was it the intent
> > >of the author to speak of "war".
> >
> > what was his intent?
>
> To define how the affairs of state could be conducted with minimal cost
> and loss.
>
> > > My book will make all of this quite clear.
> >
> > ah-ha! Teh plot thickens
> > as muddy water begins to settle.
> > Can you give us a sneak-peak?
>
> See above for sneak-peek. I am working on final edit as we chat. Then
> in new year, will seek publisher.
>
Hmm, I can call forth spirits from the vasty deep...
chino...@my-deja.com
Douglas Henderson <sons...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
> davidgj...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > >
> > > >"Art of War" was not part of the original title,
> > >
> > > So it was simply called, the Sun Tzu?
> >
> > Yes. Books were given only the name of their author. I don't know
how
> > the Analects or TTC fit into this. They are also likely later
> > inventions. Anyone know?
> >
>
> In the late first century BC the scholar Liu Hsiang noted an 'Art of
War'
> by Sun Tzu in three scrolls and the former Han historian noted "The
Art of
> War of Sun Tzu of Wu" in eighty-two chapters.
>
> So the term, "The Art of War" in referring to the Book is of early
> provenance. The reference of Sima Qian begins "Sun Tzu was a native
of
> Ch'i who by means of his book on the art of war secured an audience"
with
> the King of Wu.
as best as i can recall,
the earliest references are just to the "sun tzu",
meaning "the text written by sun tzu"...
but certainly the the title "the art of war"
is, as you say, of early provenance.
p'raps mr. davey jones' issue therewith
[hey! was he in the monkees?!]
is that somehow the english title
"the art of war"
does a disservice and
mistranslates
the original chinese "bing1 fa3"...
so on that off chance,
let us make perfectly clear
that "bing1 fa3" translates
as follows:
soldier/warrior/military method/skill/art/law
U B de judge.
do we prefer "the art of the warrior"?
if not, then what?
chino
rick
>
>
> so on that off chance,
> let us make perfectly clear
> that "bing1 fa3" translates
> as follows:
> soldier/warrior/military method/skill/art/law
>
> U B de judge.
>
> do we prefer "the art of the warrior"?
>
> if not, then what?
>
Mr. Cornell gets my vote.
Or perhaps we should wait till they make the movie
and see what they call it.
Perhaps a comedy called, "Fuck it Dude, let's go bowling"
Jaybuzin0000
I'd composted a post
in which eye had deter-underminded
that the bing was a cherry in crosby
stills and nash-rambler's dash-board.
Haven't been to the web-site tho.
{:-])))