wu...nothingness...silence
shazi
nothingness in action
or in-action
or nothing...
the softest thing in the world
gallops over the hardest
only nothing enters into where there is no space
i therefore know the benefit of wuwei
wordless instruction teaches
the benefit of wuwei
the world rarely achieves it.
ddj43
words seem to engender conflict
in a grove at times.
otoh, harmony seems to lead to silence.
-shazi
![{:-])))'s profile photo](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a/default-user=s40-c)
{:-])))
[...]
> harmony seems to lead to silence.
We are, perhaps, basically, at peace
with each other at the moment.
Having gone round and round, 15 at least,
having said, for the most part, that which can be
put into words, well, h'ears one m'ore.
Lately the idea of being pneumatic has entered
into my heart-mind. Prior to being an air-bag
one might be said to be pre-born, unborn.
Emerging, there's that word again,
maybe getting a slap on the butt while hanging
upside-down from a doctor's other hand,
(do they really do that?) a so-called individual
takes a breath, becomes pneumatic.
It's only natural I guess.
The cord is cut, a journey begins.
One is conscious, but of what one may not know.
Sleep cycles. Unconsciousness occurs.
Awakenings happen.
Knowledge grows along with a great many cells.
Eventually there is usually a fledging.
A full fledged adult leaves the nest and soars.
After a spell, consciousness is no longer.
A last breath of air is exhaled. Not pneumatic
one is said to cease to be, to return to silence.
In the meanwhile, take air.
Pneuma. is it qi?
-turning locks,
unlocking, one may turn-
Keynes
There is silence even in noise.
But we seem to have fallen into vegetablism.
Roots sunk deep. All weeds beeten down.
Under the soil the potato speaks not.
We seem not to carrot all.
Since I was salad I thought I wanted this.
(Until I saw the vinnegarette tasters.)
The peace of the garden?
(Or maybe we've all just been busy yanking our yins.)
I know I have.
cheers and beers for all present and departed.
Keynes
Someone in another group cited a book.
It said that autopsies were forbidden in china,
but not beheadings. The empty veins in the
neck were assumed to carry air (rather than
blood), and this air was spiritual energy called
chi. (wind?) Dunno how factual that book was.
I tend not to think in terms of birth and death
very often. But when I do, I think that our bodies
all the same living first cell that has divided and
divided and divided and never has died.
Also that we literally are what we eat (obviously).
The sperm-egg cell has grown by converting 'food'
into our bodily form, which no longer resembles
pizza, even though it is. So one could say we are
primarily form, more importantly than the matter
that makes it. Still, a guy's gotta eat.
Most often I don't even think of life in time
but just look around in wonder. Very interesting.
shazi
> shazi wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > harmony seems to lead to silence.
>
> We are, perhaps, basically, at peace
> with each other at the moment.
ah yes.
i suspect that if we were physically in the grove,
sitting on stumps enjoying a draught,
there would be a distinct non-verbal dynamic in place.
such doesn't quite work in this medium.
hence harmony leads to slilence.
> Having gone round and round, 15 at least,
> having said, for the most part, that which can be
> put into words, well, h'ears one m'ore.
>
> Lately the idea of being pneumatic has entered
> into my heart-mind. Prior to being an air-bag
> one might be said to be pre-born, unborn.
are wind-bags born that way?
or is it something that develops with age?
> Emerging, there's that word again,
> maybe getting a slap on the butt while hanging
> upside-down from a doctor's other hand,
> (do they really do that?) a so-called individual
i don't think that they do that
or at least with mine they didn't.
> takes a breath, becomes pneumatic.
> It's only natural I guess.
ruach, spiritus, pneuma, qi...all something to do with gas.
or at least in their etymology.
little did I realize some years ago,
upon translating the neiye,
that i would embark on another view.
to those who wrote the guanzi,
spirit and qi are distinct things.
dao...de...jing...shen...qi...xin...
words mean something,
but sometimes these goblets
have different contents.
i have come to view 'spirit' as
something distinct from 'a spirit'.
so that the spirit is something that unifies
me with what is.
qi, otoh, seems to be the emotional/psychic energy
one possesses as a result of being capable of
being a condiut of such energy.
perhaps these gasbags are related,
but not the same.
there is a lot more written in guanzi/neiye and wenzi
on these topics than in the laozi and zhuangzi.
(paul van els sent me his dissertation on the wenzi,
it's quite fascinating)
> In the meanwhile, take air.
> Pneuma. is it qi?
I think there are significant differences.
-shazi
noname
>after four days of wordless discussion
>nothingness in action
>or in-action
>or nothing...
>
>the softest thing in the world
>gallops over the hardest
>only nothing enters into where there is no space
>i therefore know the benefit of wuwei
>wordless instruction teaches
>the benefit of wuwei
>the world rarely achieves it.
>ddj43
>
>words seem to engender conflict
>in a grove at times.
Are you looking for a fight?
>otoh, harmony seems to lead to silence.
>
>-shazi
Harmony leads to balance. Change is constant so balance can not
endure forever.
You've become a little too yin in the head maybe, need some yang to
kickstart the cycle?
--
when you can't remember what you sig-line means
it's time to change it.
noname
>On Mon, 12 May 2008 04:49:46 -0700 (PDT), shazi <shazi....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>after four days of wordless discussion
>>nothingness in action
>>or in-action
>>or nothing...
>>
>>the softest thing in the world
>>gallops over the hardest
>>only nothing enters into where there is no space
>>i therefore know the benefit of wuwei
>>wordless instruction teaches
>>the benefit of wuwei
>>the world rarely achieves it.
>>ddj43
>>
>>words seem to engender conflict
>>in a grove at times.
>>otoh, harmony seems to lead to silence.
>>
>>-shazi
>
>There is silence even in noise.
And vice versa for sensitive ears.
>But we seem to have fallen into vegetablism.
>Roots sunk deep. All weeds beeten down.
>Under the soil the potato speaks not.
>We seem not to carrot all.
>
>Since I was salad I thought I wanted this.
>(Until I saw the vinnegarette tasters.)
>
>The peace of the garden?
>(Or maybe we've all just been busy yanking our yins.)
>
>I know I have.
The weather has been allowing me to chop wood and carry water.
shazi
> shazi wrote:
> >words seem to engender conflict
> >in a grove at times.
> Are you looking for a fight?
;-)
> >otoh, harmony seems to lead to silence.
>
> >-shazi
>
> Harmony leads to balance. Change is constant so balance can not
> endure forever.
>
> You've become a little too yin in the head maybe, need some yang to
> kickstart the cycle?
it seems to me that when yang is in front,
i might want to carry yin on my back,
or in my head, as the case may be.
such also is a type of balance.
-shazi
{:-])))
>jz wrote:
>> shazi wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > harmony seems to lead to silence.
>>
>> We are, perhaps, basically, at peace
>> with each other at the moment.
>
>ah yes.
>
>i suspect that if we were physically in the grove,
>sitting on stumps enjoying a draught,
>there would be a distinct non-verbal dynamic in place.
>
>such doesn't quite work in this medium.
>
>hence harmony leads to slilence.
>
>> Having gone round and round, 15 at least,
>> having said, for the most part, that which can be
>> put into words, well, h'ears one m'ore.
>>
>> Lately the idea of being pneumatic has entered
>> into my heart-mind. Prior to being an air-bag
>> one might be said to be pre-born, unborn.
>
>are wind-bags born that way?
>or is it something that develops with age?
We are air-breathers by nature, by birth.
An individual without lungs won't last long.
The organism might be alive before birth.
I don't know if lungs are required at a
particular pre-natal stage or if mom is
able to provide oxygen thru hers alone.
Eye seas.
Thanks!
>-shazi
shazi
>shazi wrote:
>>are wind-bags born that way?
>>or is it something that develops with age?
i think you missed my point, but...
>We are air-breathers by nature, by birth.
>An individual without lungs won't last long.
>The organism might be alive before birth.
deep-ends on the definition of 'life'.
for some reason, those most hung up
on the prenatal definition of life
ascribe infallability to the shengjing.
yet it is that same shengjing which says
that life begins with the breath:
And the Lord God formed man
of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils
the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.
this same 'breath', or 'ruach' in hebrew
is the same n'ocean as 'qi' or 'shen' to some.
spirit, spiritus, pneuma...
yet human life may be more than 'breath',
but brain-waves, metabolism, circulation,
consciousness or not...
only 'breath' of air doesn't exist before birth.
>I don't know if lungs are required at a
>particular pre-natal stage or if mom is
>able to provide oxygen thru hers alone.
i don't think pre-natal lungs can
oxygenate blood through the same processes
as gulls do in fish. besides, the
oxygen in amniotic fluid would rapidly exhaust.
no, that's why you have a navel...
pondering such tings ina grove...
-shazi
{:-])))
>jz wrote:
>>shazi wrote:
>>>are wind-bags born that way?
>>>or is it something that develops with age?
>
>i think you missed my point,
It flashed past me in a flash.
Probably some talkers are born talkers.
Others may talk for some other reason.
Maybe insecurity. Other reasons as well,
could be genetic or environmental.
Once the first chop is made, ... ... ... .
Are song-birds born that way? Probably.
>but...
>
>>We are air-breathers by nature, by birth.
>>An individual without lungs won't last long.
>>The organism might be alive before birth.
>
>deep-ends on the definition of 'life'.
>for some reason, those most hung up
>on the prenatal definition of life
>ascribe infallability to the shengjing.
>yet it is that same shengjing which says
>that life begins with the breath:
>
>And the Lord God formed man
>of the dust of the ground,
>and breathed into his nostrils
>the breath of life;
>and man became a living soul.
>
>this same 'breath', or 'ruach' in hebrew
>is the same n'ocean as 'qi' or 'shen' to some.
>spirit, spiritus, pneuma...
>
>yet human life may be more than 'breath',
>but brain-waves, metabolism, circulation,
>consciousness or not...
>
>only 'breath' of air doesn't exist before birth.
Human life is certainly more than breath.
Vegetables are alive. A human, even though
able to breath, having brain-waves, etc.,
but if unconscious, is akin to a vegetable.
Ideas of quality of life and potential
may come into play. Can a dog be fully human?
>>I don't know if lungs are required at a
>>particular pre-natal stage or if mom is
>>able to provide oxygen thru hers alone.
>
>i don't think pre-natal lungs can
>oxygenate blood through the same processes
>as gulls do in fish. besides, the
>oxygen in amniotic fluid would rapidly exhaust.
>
>no, that's why you have a navel...
>
>pondering such tings ina grove...
Unborn, or pre-natal womb-swimmers
or floaters, might not be able to make a
sound via speech. Perhaps quiet, they are.
Kicking against the wall, mom might feel it
even though there were no words.
>-shazi
^@%>---*=#
"shazi" <shazi....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:494311aa-1cc8-4dc8...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> after four days of wordless discussion
nods and farts ?
shazi
>shazi wrote:
>>jz wrote:
>>>shazi wrote:
>
>>>>are wind-bags born that way?
>>>>or is it something that develops with age?
>>
>>i think you missed my point,
>
>It flashed past me in a flash.
>Probably some talkers are born talkers.
>Others may talk for some other reason.
>Maybe insecurity. Other reasons as well,
>could be genetic or environmental.
>Once the first chop is made, ... ... ... .
>
>Are song-birds born that way? Probably.
is the talking of an old windbag
anything more than the chirping of birds?
laughing, coughing, groans, gasps...
these are the primordial sounds of the
natural mind. therein lie the chirping
of birds.
but words are meant to have something to say.
and in so doing, convey a meaning.
yet the meaning of words, somehow,
is so much less effective than the
nonverbal.
human emotions communicate what words cannot.
>Ideas of quality of life and potential
>may come into play. Can a dog be fully human?
in terms of compassion, empathy,
perhaps the chinese might say, 'ren' for humanity/benevolence,
having perhaps the symbol for human as its radical,
i would say most emphatically, "YES".
and many who are physically human
are distinctly not so.
but the dog does so naturally,
whereas many people need to be taught humanity.
i remember some phd colleague i knew sometime back,
so totally narcissistic, he had no discernable
compassion whatsoever. Yet, having read books
on how to pursuade people, he would 'act'/wei
human - he tried to be friendly, kind, you know, 'human',
yet it was all an act; because his 'nature' was
not so.
one has to wonder what laozi meant in
the heirarchal descent through confucian virtues
in chapter 38.
humanity cannot be acted upon, it must flow,
much like the dog.
>Unborn, or pre-natal womb-swimmers
>or floaters, might not be able to make a
>sound via speech. Perhaps quiet, they are.
>Kicking against the wall, mom might feel it
>even though there were no words.
the presence of 'life' has an unusual effect
on the expectant mother
how can 'emotional bonding' be expressed in words?
or love?
-shazi
noname
>i remember some phd colleague i knew sometime back,
>so totally narcissistic, he had no discernable
>compassion whatsoever. Yet, having read books
>on how to pursuade people, he would 'act'/wei
>human - he tried to be friendly, kind, you know, 'human',
>yet it was all an act; because his 'nature' was
>not so.
Why, that dirty bastard!
To those who did not know him for the heartless narcissist as you did,
he must have seemed quite normal even though he was a lying fake. His
outer guise seemed quite normal didn't it. The son of a bitch!
Similarly the sage is consumed by harmony with Tao, and by following
Tao the sage appears to be "normal" and "human" for the most part,
even though he is not, really. Following Tao gives the sage an
appearance of compassion even though the selfish bastard cares only
for Tao.
Ah, to be like a dog, without guise and licking the hand of its
master, perhaps not even conscious of the licking as it follows only
Tao.
{:-])))
>j wrote:
>>shazi wrote:
>>>jz wrote:
>>>>shazi wrote:
>>
>>>>>are wind-bags born that way?
>>>>>or is it something that develops with age?
>>>
>>>i think you missed my point,
>>
>>It flashed past me in a flash.
>>Probably some talkers are born talkers.
>>Others may talk for some other reason.
>>Maybe insecurity. Other reasons as well,
>>could be genetic or environmental.
>>Once the first chop is made, ... ... ... .
>>
>>Are song-birds born that way? Probably.
>
>is the talking of an old windbag
>anything more than the chirping of birds?
Most likely not.
Especially given the context
or connotation of windbag.
>laughing, coughing, groans, gasps...
>these are the primordial sounds of the
>natural mind. therein lie the chirping
>of birds.
>
>but words are meant to have something to say.
>and in so doing, convey a meaning.
>yet the meaning of words, somehow,
>is so much less effective than the
>nonverbal.
Often that is true.
Another facet may be
and reflect how words induce knots
as well as being able, at times,
to free folks from those knots.
>human emotions communicate what words cannot.
Laughing, howling, sobbing.
A smile, a twinkle. A punch in the face.
>>Ideas of quality of life and potential
>>may come into play. Can a dog be fully human?
>
>in terms of compassion, empathy,
>perhaps the chinese might say, 'ren' for humanity/benevolence,
>having perhaps the symbol for human as its radical,
>i would say most emphatically, "YES".
>
>and many who are physically human
>are distinctly not so.
Attributes.
Is then an unborn child a fully human life?
>but the dog does so naturally,
>whereas many people need to be taught humanity.
Do away with learning
and people might again become human?
>i remember some phd colleague i knew sometime back,
>so totally narcissistic, he had no discernable
>compassion whatsoever. Yet, having read books
>on how to pursuade people, he would 'act'/wei
>human - he tried to be friendly, kind, you know, 'human',
>yet it was all an act; because his 'nature' was
>not so.
I can relate.
As age and experience creeps upon me
I find myself becoming more and more human.
Part of it could have to do with being involved
whereas when younger I was uninvolved
and at times prehaps more evolved.
>one has to wonder what laozi meant in
>the heirarchal descent through confucian virtues
>in chapter 38.
Doesn't he turn things upside down?
Among my impressions of a confucianism
is a strict adherence to rites, rituals, and
on up the ladder, hopefully reaching De.
Laozi might begin at the end and offer
pointers on how to remain therein.
>humanity cannot be acted upon, it must flow,
>much like the dog.
Yes.
But, as with humans,
are all dogs man's best friend?
Maybe some are not so compassionate
and would as soon eat a small child
as be its faithful companion.
>>Unborn, or pre-natal womb-swimmers
>>or floaters, might not be able to make a
>>sound via speech. Perhaps quiet, they are.
>>Kicking against the wall, mom might feel it
>>even though there were no words.
>
>the presence of 'life' has an unusual effect
>on the expectant mother
>
>how can 'emotional bonding' be expressed in words?
>or love?
Once the fish is caught
the net is set aside for a spell.
Words might weave something
into a relationship of sorts. As they do
here for example. Emotions may emerge
as wholes transcend their various p'arts.
Some folks fall in love thru the internet,
via words, without a sound, alone.
>-shazi
Emotions can be a trip.
-in m'ore ways than one
Keynes
wrote:
'Unborn child' is a contradiction of terms
coined by the undead. An attempt to decieve
by begging the question. What ought one to
do while being lied to at high volume?
>>but the dog does so naturally,
>>whereas many people need to be taught humanity.
>
>Do away with learning
>and people might again become human?
>
>>i remember some phd colleague i knew sometime back,
>>so totally narcissistic, he had no discernable
>>compassion whatsoever. Yet, having read books
>>on how to pursuade people, he would 'act'/wei
>>human - he tried to be friendly, kind, you know, 'human',
>>yet it was all an act; because his 'nature' was
>>not so.
>
In a way, things are as they appear to be.
The pretense of benevolence is benevolence
after all. For social purposes, motive may be
irrelevant compared to actions. For purposes
of Tao, it's the other way round maybe.
>I can relate.
>As age and experience creeps upon me
>I find myself becoming more and more human.
>Part of it could have to do with being involved
>whereas when younger I was uninvolved
>and at times prehaps more evolved.
>
>>one has to wonder what laozi meant in
>>the heirarchal descent through confucian virtues
>>in chapter 38.
>
>Doesn't he turn things upside down?
>Among my impressions of a confucianism
>is a strict adherence to rites, rituals, and
>on up the ladder, hopefully reaching De.
>Laozi might begin at the end and offer
>pointers on how to remain therein.
>
>>humanity cannot be acted upon, it must flow,
>>much like the dog.
>
Save me from flowing dogs and puppies.
{:-])))
> {:-]))) <.............@.............> wrote:
>>shazi wrote:
>>>j wrote:
>>>>Ideas of quality of life and potential
>>>>may come into play. Can a dog be fully human?
>>>
>>>in terms of compassion, empathy,
>>>perhaps the chinese might say, 'ren' for humanity/benevolence,
>>>having perhaps the symbol for human as its radical,
>>>i would say most emphatically, "YES".
>>>
>>>and many who are physically human
>>>are distinctly not so.
>>
>>Attributes.
>>Is then an unborn child a fully human life?
>>
>
>'Unborn child' is a contradiction of terms
>coined by the undead. An attempt to decieve
>by begging the question. What ought one to
>do while being lied to at high volume?
Turn down the volume?
What would you call a baby
that has yet to be born into the world?
Fetus is better, in your book?
To me such a term sounds sterile.
Is a fetus a fully human life?
>>>but the dog does so naturally,
>>>whereas many people need to be taught humanity.
>>
>>Do away with learning
>>and people might again become human?
>>
>>>i remember some phd colleague i knew sometime back,
>>>so totally narcissistic, he had no discernable
>>>compassion whatsoever. Yet, having read books
>>>on how to pursuade people, he would 'act'/wei
>>>human - he tried to be friendly, kind, you know, 'human',
>>>yet it was all an act; because his 'nature' was
>>>not so.
>>
>
>In a way, things are as they appear to be.
>The pretense of benevolence is benevolence
>after all.
A pretense is a pretense.
Genuine is genuine.
> For social purposes, motive may be
>irrelevant compared to actions. For purposes
>of Tao, it's the other way round maybe.
At times I reflect upon
how rules can stifle that which is genuine.
Rules may induce confusion in the heart.
Stress, being pulled in two directions at once,
might stem from such a situation.
Such may be a facet of a point made.
Some points are small. Others huge.
Keynes
wrote:
>Keynes <Key...@earthlinkspam.net> wrote:
>> {:-]))) <.............@.............> wrote:
>>>shazi wrote:
>>>>j wrote:
>
>>>>>Ideas of quality of life and potential
>>>>>may come into play. Can a dog be fully human?
>>>>
>>>>in terms of compassion, empathy,
>>>>perhaps the chinese might say, 'ren' for humanity/benevolence,
>>>>having perhaps the symbol for human as its radical,
>>>>i would say most emphatically, "YES".
>>>>
>>>>and many who are physically human
>>>>are distinctly not so.
>>>
>>>Attributes.
>>>Is then an unborn child a fully human life?
>>>
>>
>>'Unborn child' is a contradiction of terms
>>coined by the undead. An attempt to decieve
>>by begging the question. What ought one to
>>do while being lied to at high volume?
>
>Turn down the volume?
>
>What would you call a baby
>that has yet to be born into the world?
>Fetus is better, in your book?
>To me such a term sounds sterile.
>
>Is a fetus a fully human life?
>
Fully human life begins at around 30, if ever.
What is it about babies? The same folks who
hate people pretend to love babies. But only
until they're born, and then they're trash.
I think if a woman is not willing to love
and care for a baby, that baby is better
not to be born.
When society punishes the father as much
as they're willing to punish a mother then
I'll believe they're serious about the issue.
But not before.
noname
Society doesn't care about the baby any more than it cares about the
mother or the father. Society wants more consumer units to drive the
economy.