Medical Dog Tags
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
Recently I have been told, by a number of Medical Professional
Types, that it might be a Good Idea if I were in invest in something
known as a Medic Alert. This suggestion has been advanced before
and I've always managed to conveniently disregard it.
A Medic Alert for those who are Not In The Know, is a little tag, not
unlike the one my dog wears for her rabies vaccine, which lets those
in the Medical Profession know, in the event of untoward happenings,
that there might be an Actual Medically Diagnosed Reason for said
occurrence. This tag is engraved with The Condition and a Phone
Number. The reason for engraving The Condition is obvious, the
reason for the Phone Number is so that the Good Folks at Medic Alert
can explain The Condition to any Medical Types who have spent the
last forty years under a rock.
I don't want one. For a number of Good Reasons.
I guess I'm being unreasonable, but I don't like the idea of a stainless
steel dog-tag dangling in my cleavage. These things come on long
chains, the better to hide them beneath one's clothing...where I'm
sure they do one hell of a lot of good since ripping open shirts is not
generally the Primary Response of most Medical Types. This means
that as one is collapsing one has to either have the presence of mind
to fish the thing out into view or run the risk that Those Who Need
To Know are going to be Operating In Ignorance.
There is, of course, a second option, one can wear the wretched thing
out in full view at all times. This is not an option which interests
me. To start with, the insignia, ye olde little Snake On A Stick and
the words "Medic Alert", are bright red on the silver steel... to say
that they are noticeable is a bit of an understatement. Flipping it
over is an equally bad choice because then the engraving for The
Condition shows.
ObBeenThere: I used to wear one of these little disks about a decade
ago. When the chain broke I somehow never managed to
replace it. Eventually the disk was swallowed by the
mess atop the dresser, ne'ermore to see the light of day.
I haven't missed it.
Try as one might, there are occasions when the little demon sneaks
out into the open unbeknownst to the wearer...I know from
experience what happens when these little disks are visible to all
and sundry. One gets asked questions which one would Rather Not
Answer. For some reason, tangible evidence of Something Medical in
the form of a warning label, is equivalent to an invitation to pry.
Worse than that are those that don't ask, but actually grab at the tag
to Read For Themselves.
!Peeve: Perhaps it's merely the location of the charm, but more than
one Impetuous Individual has gotten themself roundly swatted for
Having Their Hands Where They Don't Have Any Business Being.
ObPre-emptiveStrike: I know these things come in bracelet form.
However I have a peculiar idiosyncrasy...I don't
like thing on me wrist that can get caught on
other things.
However, bowing to Repeated Orders from the Medical Powers That
Be, I actually went so far as to contact the firm and request
information. To my surprise these horrid things now come in
Designer Editions. For a mere $300.00 to $700.00 one can now have
their Medical Anomalies engraved in 14K gold. For another $300.00
or so, one can even have a chain to hang it upon. Insulin Dependence
made fashionable, as it were. I did note that buried in an obscure
corner of the brochure they did manage to mention that the Old
Fashioned stainless versions are still available...for $35.00 initial
fee and $15.00/year thereafter. Imagine my profound relief.
I didn't bother reading the bit about "Your Medical Condition", I know
I'm not going to find My Medical Condition buried between "diabetic"
and "insulin dependent". In fact, having been down this road before, I
had a good idea what was going to happen when I placed ObPhoneOrder.
Nevertheless, I bit the bullet and dialled. The person on the other
end of the phone was busy taking down Vital Information (like cheque
number) and then we came to the part I was dreading.
"Condition"
"[.....]"
"What?"
"Do you want me to spell it?"
"I think you should speak to one of our Medical Professionals on
staff."
I was duly transferred to the Medical Professional of the Day. And a
perky voiced Professional she was, too.
"I understand you want "[...]" engraved on your tag."
"Yes. Is there a problem with that?"
"Is this for you?"
"Yes."
"You're a woman, aren't you?"
"Last time I checked...is there some difficulty?"
"Well, women don't suffer from that."
Despite the urge to say "Thank you for that information, would you
please fax it to my doctor?" I refrained and persevered.
"You're a trifle behind on your journal reading, aren't you?
Say, about fifteen years, or so?"
"No, we have the most up-to-date information..."
"Then I suggest you update it once more. Women can get this if
they come from a particularly inbred family line. Would you
like to discuss my pedigree?"
Well, no, she wouldn't. Furthermore, she didn't really want to issue
the damned thing without a letter or fax from the ObMedicalTyrant
himself, stating that yes, he had made this diagnosis and yes, it
was, to the best of his knowledge, accurate in spite of my sex.
Peeve: Try to do the Right Thing and end up thwarted.
!Peeve: Being able to call and say "I tried to get the tag like you
told me, but they wouldn't issue it because they think you've
made the wrong diagnosis."
I do so love fireworks displays.
Predictably, ObTyrant wanted the Name, Rank and Serial Number of
the Medical Professional I had spoken with...he also wanted the phone
number. I suspect, had it been in his powers, he would have also
liked to request an air strike of the firm in question, but why should
I be the only one stymied?
GigaPeeve: Not being able to hear what was said to them. Arrogant people,
particularly those who have reason to be arrogant, don't like
having their judgement questioned. The blast I received was
sufficient to leave me wondering if the building was going to
be left standing when he finished with them.
Dhe end result was that The Tag was issued as requested and to my
dismay, arrived this morning in the mail. It is currently dangling off
a lampshade in my office where it alternately winks and glares at me
as the light catches it. I think the lampshade is where it's going to
stay for the time being...after all, I agreed to *get* it, I never
made any mention about *wearing* it.
Yours, defying the odds
Deirdre
--
| Deirdre Sholto-Douglas | e-mail: fi...@Mercury.mcs.com |
| | |
******* The only acceptable substitute for intelligence *******
is silence.
Bob O'Brien
Two words, Deirdre, one of them optional:
ankle bracelet.
Bob O`Bob
--
****Fee for reviewing unsolicited commercial mail: $500 minimum.****
Do not send email to this address. JUST DON'T DO IT.
Post a follow-up, or find another way to address me. Any email received
here may be subject to *active* SPAM countermeasures. You wouldn't like it.
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
In alt.peeves Bob O'Brien <ob...@best.com> wrote:
: Two words, Deirdre, one of them optional:
: ankle bracelet.
I see. Should I wear it on the inside or the outside of my
wellies?
That might be a workable solution if I were the girly-girl
sort that consistently wears clothing where access to the
ankles is possible. As it is though, my normal attire of
jeans and boots makes said suggestion an exercise in futility.
The only time I don't wear trousers when working is when I'm
wearing ye olde e-suit...perhaps I could hang it off the
breathing gear.
Actually, what I may do is remove the chain and stuff the
charm in with my driver's licence. Hopefully, anyone looking
for identification will find it in the process...not that
they're going to have a clue what to do with the information
anyway.
Julian Macassey
In article <5fccdr$c7k$1...@Mars.mcs.net>,
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas <fi...@MCS.COM> wrote:
>In alt.peeves Bob O'Brien <ob...@best.com> wrote:
>: Two words, Deirdre, one of them optional:
>
>: ankle bracelet.
>
>I see. Should I wear it on the inside or the outside of my
>wellies?
>
I see you've finally come to your senses and given up on that
waterproof shoe quest.
Now you need an ankle chain with enough girth go round the
outside of those wellies. Reading the bracelet inscription through all
those layers of mud and dried dung might be a challenge though.
--
Julian Macassey, 415.647.2217
Jim Paradis
Yeah, my dad had not one but *two* of them thar dog-tags... he had
enough
medical conditions that we used to joke that one of them said "Continued
on next tag"
--
Jim Paradis j...@jrp.tiac.net
http://www.tiac.net/users/jrp/index.html
"It's not procrastination, it's my new Just-In-Time Workload Management
System!"
Calyxa Omphalos
In article <julianE6...@netcom.com>,
Julian Macassey <jul...@netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <5fccdr$c7k$1...@Mars.mcs.net>,
>Deirdre Sholto-Douglas <fi...@MCS.COM> wrote:
>>In alt.peeves Bob O'Brien <ob...@best.com> wrote:
>>: Two words, Deirdre, one of them optional:
>>
>>: ankle bracelet.
>>
>>I see. Should I wear it on the inside or the outside of my
>>wellies?
>
>outside of those wellies.
nah, just slip the charm onto the shoelaces and forget the chain
altogether...
-calyxa
Lenore Levine
ay...@netcom.com (Ayse Sercan) had to stop wearing the medicalert
bracelet she really needs, because:
>(she) noticed that the medicalert bracelets had become the latest fashion
>statement among young girls.
Congratulations, Ayse. You've just made the case for capital
punishment. And my cow orker (who's diabetic) will gladly join
you in administering it.
BonusPeeve: Gary also mentioned the people who needlessly turn
cardboard sun protectors out so the "Emergency: Call 911" side
shows through the windshield.
Come to think of it, I suggest that emergency indicators be used
as toggles. That is, we should assume that people who deliberately
use them without the existence of an emergency want one to happen
to them.
Lenore Levine
200 pounds of rompin', stompin' menopausal horror
--
"Knowing that there's a vampire in your guest room makes it difficult to
relax, and I was terrified of what I might dream." -- Stephen Dedman
Julian Macassey
In article <5fevop$f...@shellx.best.com>,
Good plan, but wellies, by their very design, don't have
laces.
Ask any sheep.
--
Julian Macassey, 415.647.2217
Larry Colen
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas (fi...@MCS.COM) wrote:
: I guess I'm being unreasonable, but I don't like the idea of a stainless
: steel dog-tag dangling in my cleavage. These things come on long
Get a tatoo.
--
Larry Colen l...@netcom.COM pager: 408-697-8377 (OYSTERS)
Racers Paradox:
Money can't buy happiness.
Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?
Ulrika O'Brien
fi...@MCS.COM (Deirdre Sholto-Douglas) wrote:
> "You're a trifle behind on your journal reading, aren't you?
> Say, about fifteen years, or so?"
> "No, we have the most up-to-date information..."
> "Then I suggest you update it once more. Women can get this if
> they come from a particularly inbred family line. Would you
> like to discuss my pedigree?"
[places right middle finger to brow and squints in a posture of
apparent concentration, or possibly dyspepsia]
You are a descendant of the royal Stewart line, yes? (...and
you will be coming into a large sum of money, soon...)
>Dhe end result was that The Tag was issued as requested and to my
>dismay, arrived this morning in the mail. It is currently dangling off
>a lampshade in my office where it alternately winks and glares at me
>as the light catches it. I think the lampshade is where it's going to
>stay for the time being...after all, I agreed to *get* it, I never
>made any mention about *wearing* it.
Perhaps you could have a nice, subdued scarlet H embroidered onto all
your shirts.
--
"Criticism is the only known antidote to error." -- David Brin
Ulrika O'Brien***ulr...@aol.com***caveat lector
Richard G Clegg
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas (fi...@MCS.COM) wrote:
: A Medic Alert for those who are Not In The Know, is a little tag, not
: unlike the one my dog wears for her rabies vaccine.
Hmm... there're a number of people posting to alt.peeves who might need
to carry a tag to assure people that they're not actually rabid but I
wouldn't have placed you as one of them.
--
Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
Dept. of Mathematics (Network Control group) Uni. of York.
email: ric...@manor.york.ac.uk
www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
In alt.peeves Ulrika O'Brien <uaob...@uci.edu> wrote:
: You are a descendant of the royal Stewart line, yes? (...and
<raised eyebrows> The Stuarts were hardly the only set of Scots
screwing their nearest and dearest...it's a small country, after
all. Anyway, ghod knows why they'd bother, after that little
charade in France it's obvious it wasn't to keep the money in the
family.
: you will be coming into a large sum of money, soon...)
How nice. How large?
: Perhaps you could have a nice, subdued scarlet H embroidered onto all
: your shirts.
For what? "Heretic?"
Kelly Fitzpatrick
>fi...@MCS.COM (Deirdre Sholto-Douglas) wrote:
>>I guess I'm being unreasonable, but I don't like the idea of a stainless
>>steel dog-tag dangling in my cleavage. These things come on long
>>chains, the better to hide them beneath one's clothing...where I'm
>>sure they do one hell of a lot of good since ripping open shirts is not
>>generally the Primary Response of most Medical Types.
Your humble servant hereby volunteers to perform this crucial
lifesaving function.
Kelly "Just checking for tags, officer!" Fitzpatrick
Ulrika O'Brien
fi...@MCS.COM (Deirdre Sholto-Douglas) wrote:
>In alt.peeves Ulrika O'Brien <uaob...@uci.edu> wrote:
>
>: You are a descendant of the royal Stewart line, yes? (...and
>
><raised eyebrows> The Stuarts were hardly the only set of Scots
>screwing their nearest and dearest...it's a small country, after
>all. Anyway, ghod knows why they'd bother, after that little
>charade in France it's obvious it wasn't to keep the money in the
>family.
The Stuarts are the one family that I know for a fact produced
get where females of the line were prone to an otherwise
all-male disease. It seemed a durned big a coincidence to
be some *other* mostly all-male disease found also in limited
cases in women of a particular inbred line. Then again, the
world is full of strange coincidences.
>: Perhaps you could have a nice, subdued scarlet H embroidered onto all
>: your shirts.
>
>For what? "Heretic?"
"Hemophiliac." The disease in question. Have you got a
different one?
Marilyn Matte
In article <5fkjl7$b...@news.service.uci.edu> Ulrika O'Brien <uaob...@uci.edu> writes:
>"Hemophiliac." The disease in question. Have you got a
>different one?
Correct, although it's a condition rather than a disease.
(Those who lurk, learn.)
mmm
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
: The Stuarts are the one family that I know for a fact produced
: get where females of the line were prone to an otherwise
: all-male disease. It seemed a durned big a coincidence to
: be some *other* mostly all-male disease found also in limited
: cases in women of a particular inbred line. Then again, the
: world is full of strange coincidences.
Why coincident? Scotland is a *small* country, as I stated
before. And even commoners can screw their relatives...how
else can you explain Kentucky?
: >For what? "Heretic?"
: "Hemophiliac." The disease in question. Have you got a
: different one?
Guess so. Being a bleeder would be a solution in my case. If I
wasn't clear, it was probably intentional and if you're *really*
curious, my e-mail address is in my .sig.
Julian Macassey
In article <5ft3f5$4l8$1...@Mars.mcs.net>,
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas <fi...@MCS.COM> wrote:
>
>Why coincident? Scotland is a *small* country, as I stated
>before. And even commoners can screw their relatives...how
>else can you explain Kentucky?
Easy. It's populated with lowland Scots. Besides close
relatives, some of the more adventurous did try the odd injun.
--
Julian Macassey, 415.647.2217
sensei . co . uk
fi...@MCS.COM (Deirdre Sholto-Douglas) spake thusly:
>Why coincident? Scotland is a *small* country, as I stated
>before.
I think you misspelled "annexe to England", Dee-dee.
Hope this helps.
Jon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Useless, bleating, piece of arse-dull shit that
you are.
Mike Slocombe, <mi...@urban75.demon.co.uk>, complains
about "infantile abuse".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Frans Buijsen
Lenore Levine wrote:
> Come to think of it, I suggest that emergency indicators be used
> as toggles. That is, we should assume that people who deliberately
> use them without the existence of an emergency want one to happen
> to them.
In the course of the Grand Yoorpean Unification the local emergency
number
is changing (from 0611 to 112, in case you care to know).
Last week the phone company enabled the new number and started
advertizing
the change.
Almost immediately the emergency desk was flooded by people calling them
to check whether the new number really worked.
--
Frans Buijsen
Ulrika O'Brien
fi...@MCS.COM (Deirdre Sholto-Douglas) wrote:
>If I wasn't clear, it was probably intentional ...
Shock and amazement. Could it be that I was similarly
vague at first to respect that?
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
: >If I wasn't clear, it was probably intentional ...
: Shock and amazement. Could it be that I was similarly
: vague at first to respect that?
You call trailing clues about like breadcrumbs (First the
Stuart line and then "beginning with an 'H'") vague?! In
this group? You have a pretty low estimation of the
deductive ability hereabouts, don't you?
Free Clue =>=> The only way to keep things vaguely alluded
to in *this* forum is to omit them entirely.
The above is the main reason my original post contained
[...] instead of an actual condition. Those in the group
I consider friends already know and I don't care to share
with the remaining 50,000+ lurking.
The peeve wasn't about the condition, the peeve, in case you
don't read for content, was about a medical warning label.
The medical facts themselves have no bearing whatsoever
on the peevishness of wearing a dog tag...you, alone, some-
how managed to miss the fact that omitting the condition
was not an invitation to play Guess The Anomaly.
Now, of course, you're stuck waving the I Meant To Do That
banner. How long can you hold it aloft?
Rev. Feorag NicBhride
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">eval(1*1);</SCRIPT>
<BLINK><FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
Frans Buijsen<frans....@NOSPAM.tip.nl> wrote
(in article <332400...@NOSPAM.tip.nl>):
>In the course of the Grand Yoorpean Unification the local emergency
>number
>is changing (from 0611 to 112, in case you care to know).
We had that a while back but in this case, BT decided not to be daft about
it. So, if you're in trouble, you can ring the new number (if you say it's
112 I'll believe you) or the good old number (999). Not that many people
know about the new number. I also heard that 911 works here as well...
bb
Feorag
--
feo...@antipope.demon.co.uk "Bung some barley-sugar in hot water, spice
it up with a close relative of cannabis, and
allow it to go mouldy. Drink the result."
242 lbs before cooking
In article <lrcE6I...@netcom.com>, Larry Colen <l...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Deirdre Sholto-Douglas (fi...@MCS.COM) wrote:
>: I guess I'm being unreasonable, but I don't like the idea of a stainless
>Get a tatoo.
I like this idea. Especially for hemophilia.
andy
ba...@abingdon.sun.com
--
"Punishment is now unfashionable. Why? Because it creates moral
distinctions among men, which, to the democratic mind are odious.
We prefer a meaningless collective guilt to a meaningful individual
responsibility." -- Thomas Szasz
Julian Macassey
In article <slrn5i8ru7...@antipope.demon.co.uk> feo...@antipope.org writes:
><SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">eval(1*1);</SCRIPT>
><BLINK><FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
>Frans Buijsen<frans....@NOSPAM.tip.nl> wrote
>(in article <332400...@NOSPAM.tip.nl>):
>
>>In the course of the Grand Yoorpean Unification the local emergency
>>number
>>is changing (from 0611 to 112, in case you care to know).
>
>We had that a while back but in this case, BT decided not to be daft about
>it. So, if you're in trouble, you can ring the new number (if you say it's
>112 I'll believe you) or the good old number (999). Not that many people
>know about the new number. I also heard that 911 works here as well...
Why did they pick 999 in the YooKay as the "emergency" number
you may ask? You're not going to ask, so I'll tell you anyway.
They ran tests on the Brit rotary dials and found that dialing
111 caused too many errors. 0 was taken for Operator, so you couldn't
dial 000 as the selectors just dumped you on the first 0 to the
Operator. So, they did 999 which dumped you to the emergency
dispatcher. You could also easily dial 999 in the dark by using two
fingers, the first finger found 0 next to the stop and the 9 was the
other finger which was next to it.
Other countries had other plans. Denmark wouldn't let you dial
0 for an operator without dropping 25 0re in the slot, but 000 got you
emergency - with no money.
The peeve is of course that the inefficient, conservative
Brits had a single nationwide emergency number in the 1930s and the
Yanks took until the 1980s to get it together. Until then, you called
the local copper shop, fire brigade etc. Progress.
Then of course when cellular ferns came out, they didn't have
911 available and they didn't know how to route them - Highway patrol?
Which sheriffs jurisdiction etc.
--
Julian Macassey, N6ARE jul...@bongo.tele.com Voice: 415.647.2217
Pete Young
Rev. Feorag NicBhride wrote:
>
> <SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">eval(1*1);</SCRIPT>
> <BLINK><FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
Peeve: People who think they know what they're doing.
Go and ask Parsons, he at least knows how to make this work
properly. In return perhaps you can teach him how to write
something that's worth reading.
One of these days, I'll get round to building a newsreader.
But until then, it's Mozilla or bust.
--
____________________________________________________________________
Pete Young pyo...@srd.bt.co.uk Phone +44 1473 640885
"Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life"
Jon Parry-McCulloch
> They ran tests on the Brit rotary dials and found that dialing
>111 caused too many errors. 0 was taken for Operator, so you couldn't
>dial 000 as the selectors just dumped you on the first 0 to the
>Operator.
Gods! But that takes me back a few years... the old click dagadagadaga
brbrbrbrb of the selectors and the low whine of the tone generator.
Brings tears to my eyes, it does.
Jon
Julian Macassey
In article <3326B4...@srd.bt.co.uk> Pete Young <pyo...@srd.bt.co.uk> writes:
>Rev. Feorag NicBhride wrote:
>>
>> <SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">eval(1*1);</SCRIPT>
>> <BLINK><FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
>
>But until then, it's Mozilla or bust.
Haven't you folk out at Martlesham heard about the Forte
newsreader? Even on remote, snake infested Guam they know that
Netflake is not a newsreader/poster.
Looks like we're going to need some new ordinances here in
Peevetown.
1. Only one account per person. No his & her accounts allowed.
e-mail is NOT a Fax machine.
2. No posting from web Browsers.
Peeve?: If JennyG was at the right point in her menstrual cycle she
would have taken care of these annoying little problems ages ago.
M Holmes
fi...@MCS.COM (Deirdre Sholto-Douglas) wrote:
>I guess I'm being unreasonable, but I don't like the idea of a stainless
>steel dog-tag dangling in my cleavage.
Let's not be too hasty here. Post a gif and we can have a vote...
FoFP
Angus McIntyre
In article <1997Mar13.1...@bongo.tele.com>,
jul...@bongo.tele.com (Julian Macassey) wrote:
> 2. No posting from web Browsers.
Slogan for a new generation:
"Posting to Usenet from a Web browser makes as
much sense as surfing the Web with a newsreader."
Slogan two:
"If you're the kind of person who likes to eat
soup with a fork, NetScape has a newsreader for you."
Actually, I've nothing really against the idea of a Web browser
providing a newsreader and other functions. After all, for the average
novice home user who happens to have a 300Mhz Pentium MMX, 256MB of RAM
and 1GB free on their hard drive, NetScape Communicator makes a *lot* of
sense. It's just that all the integrated newsreaders seem to be so
atrociously badly implemented. There's nothing to say that it *couldn't*
be done right. Just that to date, nobody has.
GearheadWebPeeve: There's something new and nasty out there, which
doesn't have the good manners to collapse relative pathnames before
sending requests to the server. I don't know what it is, but it's
messing up my log analysis scripts. I'd like it caught and shot before
it develops any more bad habits, please.
A
--
an...@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~angus
"You ask me, do I love you? Does the Pope live in the woods? "Airhead"
Quod erat demonstrandum, baby. (Oooh! You speak French!)" Thomas Dolby
o r c e l l . c h i . i l . u s
In article <3326B4...@srd.bt.co.uk>,
Pete Young <pyo...@srd.bt.co.uk> wrote:
>Rev. Feorag NicBhride wrote:
>>
>> <SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">eval(1*1);</SCRIPT>
>> <BLINK><FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
>
>
>Go and ask Parsons, he at least knows how to make this work
>properly. In return perhaps you can teach him how to write
>something that's worth reading.
No, it's not worth the trouble, since Americans aren't civilized
enough to be of any interest to a European. At least not when
there's not a war going on.
>One of these days, I'll get round to building a newsreader.
>But until then, it's Mozilla or bust.
Really? You mean there's a platform out there that you can get
Netscape for that doesn't have either Unix or an operating system
with a million other newsreaders floating around. Shoot, in these
parts you can get hit on the head by the newsreaders dropping out of
trees if you don't watch your step.
____
david parsons \bi/ o...@pell.chi.il.us
\/
Glen Quarnstrom
fo...@tattoo.ed.ac.uk (M Holmes) wrote:
For some other interesting ideas as to where to attach the medical
tag, she could visit Calyxa's web page.
--
gl...@cyberhighway.net
Glen Quarnstrom
o r c @ p e l l . c h i . i l . u s (david parsons) wrote:
>Content-Type: text/html
Why are you posting HTML messages in this newsgroup? If some newbie
did that, he'd get flamed to hell and back. So why is it that folks
like you and Ayse can do it, and nobody complains?
--
gl...@cyberhighway.net
Roger Lee
In article <333ccf63...@news.cyberhighway.net>,
Probably because his and Ayse's posts are well formatted, well thought
out missives that happen to have content and style. Can we say that
for most newbies that use the point-and-drool method of posting?
--
If electricity comes from electrons,
does morality come from morons?
Pink Boy
gl...@cyberhighway.net (Glen Quarnstrom) writes:
>o r c @ p e l l . c h i . i l . u s (david parsons) wrote:
>Why are you posting HTML messages in this newsgroup? If some newbie
>did that, he'd get flamed to hell and back. So why is it that folks
>like you and Ayse can do it, and nobody complains?
Pest control.
Mr Foo
Pink Boy
o r c @ p e l l . c h i . i l . u s (david parsons) writes:
> No, it's not worth the trouble, since Americans aren't civilized
> enough to be of any interest to a European. At least not when
> there's not a war going on.
Speaking of that, now that the cold war is over and Germany
has been re-unified, when are you guys going to starting
picking sides for the next rumble? I suggest France and
Germany against Britain and Italy. That way the guys
with the nukes will be on different sides.
Mr Foo
Steve Daniels (Official JBT of a.p)
On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:24:05 GMT, gl...@cyberhighway.net (Glen
Quarnstrom) wrote:
>o r c @ p e l l . c h i . i l . u s (david parsons) wrote:
>
>>Content-Type: text/html
>
>Why are you posting HTML messages in this newsgroup? If some newbie
>did that, he'd get flamed to hell and back. So why is it that folks
>like you and Ayse can do it, and nobody complains?
I wrote to Ayse about that, and she said that she was dinkin'
around with something that wasn't going to work out. As far as
I'm concerned, if I have to open Nutscrape to read it, it isn't
worth it.
--
Only a moron would believe any of this crap.
mave...@lakeshoreconn.com in alt.food.mcdonalds
sensei . co . uk
jul...@bongo.tele.com (Julian Macassey) spake thusly:
>Haven't you folk out at Martlesham heard about the Forte
>newsreader?
Eh? Feorag's at Martlesham?
Peeve: I am.
!Peeve^n(*): Thirteen working days left before I get out of the
shithole and start my new job.
Jon
(*) where is very big.
Kelly Fitzpatrick
>Even on remote, snake infested Guam they know that
>Netflake is not a newsreader/poster.
ObKneejerk: Guam is *not* snake infested! Not! Not! Not! Nope, no
snakes here! Um, waitaminnit while I unwrap this little bastard from
the keyboard and throw him outside to the wolves. Okay, Nope, no
snakes. Oops, did I mention the ravening wolves? Gosh, I hope the
Washington Post doesn't see this...
Kelly "Hanging from the trees like thick, brown spaghetti" Fitzpatrick
>
> Looks like we're going to need some new ordinances here in
>Peevetown.
>
> 1. Only one account per person. No his & her accounts allowed.
>e-mail is NOT a Fax machine.
>
> 2. No posting from web Browsers.
>
Glen Quarnstrom
r...@netcom.com (Roger Lee) wrote:
>In article <333ccf63...@news.cyberhighway.net>,
>Glen Quarnstrom <gl...@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
>>o r c @ p e l l . c h i . i l . u s (david parsons) wrote:
>>
>>>Content-Type: text/html
>>
>>Why are you posting HTML messages in this newsgroup? If some newbie
>>did that, he'd get flamed to hell and back. So why is it that folks
>>like you and Ayse can do it, and nobody complains?
>
>Probably because his and Ayse's posts are well formatted, well thought
>out missives that happen to have content and style. Can we say that
>for most newbies that use the point-and-drool method of posting?
Well, lovely. I can agree with that totally. Problem is, Agent is
not an HTML browser, so it doesn't recognize HTML tags, it just
presents them as part of the message. Now, with Charlie's method, all
I have to do is ignore the minor annoyance of the tags, which I'm more
than willing to do to forstall the influx of hundreds, if not
thousands of nit-wits flooding us with animated, full-color,
sound-enhanced, blinking, UglyFont atrocities in lieu of "smileys."
However, when David's editor adds the line "Content-Type: text/html"
to the headers, Agent interprets the message as an HTML document, and
only shows me a logo with none of the included message. At this
point, I can do one of three things:
1) Skip to the next message, which is what I do with such messages in
most other newsgroups.
2) Pick one of several methods to launch the message, wait for an
eternity for MSIE to load the damn thing, and then get to enjoy
whatever set of arcane characters the perp is using to frustrate
browser users. This is mildly amusing. Once.
3) Toggle Agent to "show raw message," read the post, and then toggle
the option off again. Or, (3-b) choose "f" to post a reply, read the
message, and then cancel the reply.
I suspect that eliminating or altering the "Content-Type: text/html"
line would solve the problem nicely. Failing that, I imagine I'll be
using Option One most of the time, and I'd hate to miss any of the
good stuff posted by the regulars.
Glen Quarnstrom
das...@netcom.com (Pink Boy) wrote:
>gl...@cyberhighway.net (Glen Quarnstrom) writes:
>
>>o r c @ p e l l . c h i . i l . u s (david parsons) wrote:
>
>>Why are you posting HTML messages in this newsgroup? If some newbie
>>did that, he'd get flamed to hell and back. So why is it that folks
>>like you and Ayse can do it, and nobody complains?
>
>Pest control.
Are you saying that Parsons is a pest? 'Cause it's *his* message that
I can't read without jumping through hoops.
--
gl...@cyberhighway.net
Glen Quarnstrom
ay...@netcom.com (Ayse Sercan) wrote:
><blink><bold><h1>
>gl...@cyberhighway.net wrote:
>>Why are you posting HTML messages in this newsgroup? If some newbie
>>did that, he'd get flamed to hell and back. So why is it that folks
>>like you and Ayse can do it, and nobody complains?
>
>Because Orc and I are doing it *just* to fuck with Netscape users.
Problem is, you're fucking with me and other Forte Agent users, and
we're NOT using Nutscrape to read mail. See my explanation in
response to Roger's message.
>But feel free to flame me for being a clueless newbie, and we'll see what
>happens, OK?
While I appreciate the kind invitation, I think I'll save it for a
more appropriate occasion, if it's all the same to you. If you could
see your way clear to remove or modify the "Content-Type: text/html"
line in your headers, though, it'd be helpful, I think. Or would you
prefer I not read your posts?
--
gl...@cyberhighway.net
Glen Quarnstrom
dan...@cdsnet.net (Steve Daniels (Official JBT of a.p)) wrote:
>On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:24:05 GMT, gl...@cyberhighway.net (Glen
>Quarnstrom) wrote:
>
>>o r c @ p e l l . c h i . i l . u s (david parsons) wrote:
>>
>>>Content-Type: text/html
>>
>>Why are you posting HTML messages in this newsgroup? If some newbie
>
>I wrote to Ayse about that, and she said that she was dinkin'
>around with something that wasn't going to work out. As far as
>I'm concerned, if I have to open Nutscrape to read it, it isn't
>worth it.
My sentiments exactly. I suppose it could work as a sort of reverse
kill-file or something. Eliminating the "html" from the header line
would probably fix it, since Charlie and Feo use a similar stunt, and
Agent handles their posts transparently.
--
gl...@cyberhighway.net
Julian Macassey
In article <332af...@poppy.anglianet.co.uk> sen...@anglianet.co.uk (Jon Pussy-McCulloch) writes:
>jul...@bongo.tele.com (Julian Macassey) spake thusly:
>
>
>>Haven't you folk out at Martlesham heard about the Forte
>>newsreader?
>
>Eh? Feorag's at Martlesham?
Nope, she isn't, Pete Young is I assume. If you could read your
newsreader and do followups appropriately, you would see that:
[In article <3326B4...@srd.bt.co.uk> Pete Young <pyo...@srd.bt.co.uk> writes:
[>Rev. Feorag NicBhride wrote:
[>>
[>> <SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">eval(1*1);</SCRIPT>
[>> <BLINK><FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
[>
[>One of these days, I'll get round to building a newsreader.
[>But until then, it's Mozilla or bust.
Notice how the attributions go? See how there are two people
writing there? See how the last last one to write has an address
bt.co.uk ? Notice how it is the pyoung entity that is mentioning the
Netflake noosreeder?
HTH
Pete Young
Julian Macassey wrote:
> Haven't you folk out at Martlesham heard about the Forte
> newsreader?
I take it that you are offering to port it to Unix for me?
!Peeve: thanks to Charlie I now have a new newsreader called slrn,
and jolly good it is too. Consider this my last post from nutscrape.
Julian Macassey
In article <332D2A...@srd.bt.co.uk> Pete Young <pyo...@srd.bt.co.uk> writes:
>Julian Macassey wrote:
>
>> Haven't you folk out at Martlesham heard about the Forte
>> newsreader?
>
>I take it that you are offering to port it to Unix for me?
If you are running Unix, you have no excuse for using
Netflake. There are more choices of Unix newsreaders than there are
whores in Soho.
I assumed that you were using Nutflake because it was the only
thing handy that ran on an MS-DROSS machine.
!peeve: Linux distribution comes with trn and other news readers.
Bob O Brien
Julian Macassey <jul...@bongo.tele.com> wrote:
>
> Looks like we're going to need some new ordinances here in
>Peevetown.
It would appear that an extra character found its way into your
helpful and appropriate suggestion.
Bob O`Bob
--
****Fee for reviewing unsolicited commercial mail: $500 minimum.****
Do not send email to this address. JUST DON'T DO IT.
Post a follow-up, or find another way to address me. Any email received
here may be subject to *active* SPAM countermeasures. You wouldn't like it.
o r c e l l . c h i . i l . u s
In article <slrn5iohf3....@antipope.demon.co.uk>,
Charlie Stross <charlie @ antipope . org> wrote:
><BLINK>Get a real newsreader<FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
.
.
.
>Second, Begin the attribution line (as above) with an HTML comment. Like
>this:
>
><BLINK>Get a real newsreader<FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
Interesting thing about doing it the way you've been doing it. I've
been proofreading my posts with Netscape, in my quest for newsreading
purity (and, parenthetically, what the fuck is Free Agent doing
trying to interpret HTML in news articles? News is text, damnit, not
some stupid cheap imitation of html for the people who are too poor
to get a IP connection to the outside world.) and when I view your
articles with Netscape, I see, in plain english, the above-mentioned
text, which doesn't do anything except clutter up the screen, leaving
your commentary to be read by each and every netscape user. The
simple addition of the Content-type: header, which is not a news
header last I checked (though I should really look at son-of-rfc1036
or whatever Henry Spencer's latest definition of news is called to
see if the html camel has stuck its nose under the tent.) changes this
baffling display of html tags into what it was intended to be; a GET
A BETTER NEWS READER request to the poor unfortunates who are stuck
using broken news readers.
The easy solution, which won't hurt at all, is, of course, to get
a better news reader.
David A. Guidry
In article <5gllsa$m...@shellx.best.com>, Bob O Brien <ob...@best.com> wrote:
>Julian Macassey <jul...@bongo.tele.com> wrote:
>> Looks like we're going to need some new ordinances here in
> ^
>>Peevetown.
>
>It would appear that an extra character found its way into your
>helpful and appropriate suggestion.
Two, unless you want to count rare and obsolete definitions.
Pedantically yours,
--
David A Guidry Systems and Network Administrator
College of Arts and Sciences Northwestern University
Glen Quarnstrom
o r c @ p e l l . c h i . i l . u s (david parsons) wrote:
>In article <slrn5iohf3....@antipope.demon.co.uk>,
>Charlie Stross <charlie @ antipope . org> wrote:
>><BLINK>Get a real newsreader<FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
> .
> .
> .
>>Second, Begin the attribution line (as above) with an HTML comment. Like
>>this:
>>
>><BLINK>Get a real newsreader<FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
Well, this is all the quote provided by Mr. Parsons here, so I can't
tell whether he's addressing Charlie, me, both of us, or just rambling
on at random. Since I've gone to the trouble to decode his HTML, I
suppose I might just as well see if I can make some sense of what
follows.
> Interesting thing about doing it the way you've been doing it. I've
> been proofreading my posts with Netscape, in my quest for newsreading
> purity (and, parenthetically, what the fuck is Free Agent doing
> trying to interpret HTML in news articles? News is text, damnit, not
It's not Free Agent, Junior, it's Agent, the registered full version.
It just happens to be by far the most popular Windows-based
newsreader, so unless you want to deprive all Agent users of your
charm and wit in your Quixotic attempts to Save UseNet From The Evil
HTML Hordes, it might behoove you to make a small adjustment or two in
your posting technique.
> some stupid cheap imitation of html for the people who are too poor
> to get a IP connection to the outside world.) and when I view your
I don't know where you got that silly notion. Agent requires a full
ISP connection.
> articles with Netscape, I see, in plain english, the above-mentioned
> text, which doesn't do anything except clutter up the screen, leaving
> your commentary to be read by each and every netscape user. The
> simple addition of the Content-type: header, which is not a news
> header last I checked (though I should really look at son-of-rfc1036
> or whatever Henry Spencer's latest definition of news is called to
> see if the html camel has stuck its nose under the tent.) changes this
> baffling display of html tags into what it was intended to be; a GET
> A BETTER NEWS READER request to the poor unfortunates who are stuck
> using broken news readers.
I'm sure that Forte will be pleased to hear your considered evaluation
of their excellent newsreader. Agent users are, presumably, following
UseNet conventions. It's YOU who's playing HTML games, and to expect
all Agent users to get a "better" newsreader is outrageously arrogant
and presumptuous of you.
> The easy solution, which won't hurt at all, is, of course, to get
> a better news reader.
I think this is where I came in.
You just can't win against elitists who think that *their* way is the
*only* way, and that I somehow am not worthy to read your words of
wisdom unless I install and learn some variety of Unix and a
Unix-based newsreader. Go ahead and keep posting your HTML crap, orc,
and I'll respect your desire to put yourself in an automatic killfile.
In the meantime, I'll snicker at the idea that you're doing EXACTLY
the same thing that you're whining about; posting HTML in a text-based
newsgroup. How you can rationalize that it's better when you do it
than when some lamer posting with Netscape does it escapes me, but
then, I'm not a computer weenie, so what do I know?
--
gl...@cyberhighway.net
Jon Parry-McCulloch
> Notice how the attributions go? See how there are two people
>writing there? See how the last last one to write has an address
>bt.co.uk ? Notice how it is the pyoung entity that is mentioning the
>Netflake noosreeder?
Listen, Dickface, Pete Young _is_ Feorag.
Don't you know _anything_?
Jon
Pete Young
Julian Macassey <jul...@bongo.tele.com> spluttered indignantly:
> If you are running Unix, you have no excuse for using
>Netflake.
Noted. As I said, thanks to Chas for directions to slrn, which is a vast
improvement. I'm just a lazy git at heart.
>There are more choices of Unix newsreaders than there are
>whores in Soho.
I'll have to take your word for that.
Pete Young
On 13 Mar 1997 17:00:42 -0800, david parsons <o...@pell.chi.il.us> wrote:
> No, it's not worth the trouble, since Americans aren't civilized
> enough to be of any interest to a European. At least not when
> there's not a war going on.
That's not fair. Some of us take a keen interest in the affairs of the
former colonies.
Julian Macassey
In article <332fb7c0....@news.axion.bt.co.uk>,
You mean Feorag, through total boredom, asumes the personna of
Pete Young and Flames herself?
Now tell me, does Feorag dress up as Pete or does Pete dress
up as Feorag?
--
Julian Macassey, 415.647.2217
Ayse Sercan
dan...@cdsnet.net wrote:
>I wrote to Ayse about that, and she said that she was dinkin'
>around with something that wasn't going to work out. As far as
>I'm concerned, if I have to open Nutscrape to read it, it isn't
>worth it.
That's right. I was experimenting with it, but got enough complaints
about previously-readable posts turning into garbage that I gave it up.
Besides, I hate fucking MIME-encoded messages like Daniels' e-mail, and
this makes me as guilty as the people who send me that shit.
Peeve: Newsreaders, real newsreaders, that try to pretend to be HTML
browsers.
--
ay...@netcom.com
"If you try to play kissy-face with a turtle, it'll grab on to your lip.
And emergency room staff will have *no* sympathy" --Matt Harper
Charlie Stross
<BLINK>Get a real newsreader<FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
Glen Quarnstrom<gl...@cyberhighway.net> wrote (in article <334486b2...@news.cyberhighway.net>):
>
>It's not Free Agent, Junior, it's Agent, the registered full version.
>It just happens to be by far the most popular Windows-based
>newsreader, so unless you want to deprive all Agent users of your
>charm and wit in your Quixotic attempts to Save UseNet From The Evil
>HTML Hordes, it might behoove you to make a small adjustment or two in
>your posting technique.
This ain't a problem by me. At least, I _presume_ most people who use
Agent (a commercial product) do so out of choice? And they use it on
Windows -- again, out of choice? Then it's their fault if they've paid
for a brain-dead product that doesn't work properly. (And I'm inclined
to think the net would be a better place if everybody who _voluntarily_
'surfed' it using Windows disappeared tomorrow. But that's another
jihad.)
>I don't know where you got that silly notion. Agent requires a full
>ISP connection.
What's a full ISP connection, daddy?
(Clue: are you talking about a live NNTP connection, or can it maintain
its own offline spool? Does it -- bwahahaha! -- force you to keep a server
connection up while you're reading news? Can it deal with service via UUCP?
Do you want Dolby with that DS-3?)
[ snip ]
:
>I'm sure that Forte will be pleased to hear your considered evaluation
>of their excellent newsreader. Agent users are, presumably, following
>UseNet conventions.
If you read what Orc wrote, you'll see he was referring to the official
usenet specifications. You, however, were simply guessing. You are
WRONG. He is RIGHT. Your use of 'presumably' is an acceptable fig-leaf
if you choose to admit your error at this point.
:
>You just can't win against elitists who think that *their* way is the
>*only* way, and that I somehow am not worthy to read your words of
>wisdom unless I install and learn some variety of Unix and a
>Unix-based newsreader.
Wrong. We expect you to use a newsreader that follows the standards and
is not broken. If Forte fix their product, fine. Otherwise, I think you've
got grounds for a class action lawsuit against them, or whatever else
you can do to someone who sells you software for communicating via a
specified protocol and which doesn't behave as advertised.
>In the meantime, I'll snicker at the idea that you're doing EXACTLY
>the same thing that you're whining about; posting HTML in a text-based
>newsgroup. How you can rationalize that it's better when you do it
>than when some lamer posting with Netscape does it escapes me, but
>then, I'm not a computer weenie, so what do I know?
I'm posting an HTML line in my postings specifically to FUCK UP people
who try to read news using Netscape 4. Unless you WANT the whole of usenet
to turn into a mess of quivering HTML posted by a million "me too" losers
who assume that Lamescape's latest is The State Of The Art, you really
should admit that I've got a point. If in the course of such postings a
bug is uncovered in ANOTHER newsreader, well, get the manufacturers to
fix it!
Shit. Why is usenet these days overrun by useless fucks who couldn't write
their own newsreader if you socked them over the head with a copy of
the s-lang manual? What are things coming to??
Please don't answer that ...
--
Charlie Stross charlie @ antipope.org http://www.antipope.org/
"Hello. I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature file and I
will bring good luck. Also, your computer may not crash at midnight on
December 31st, 1999."
Iain Brown
On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 00:02:54 GMT, ay...@netcom.com (Ayse Sercan) wrote:
>That's right. I was experimenting with it, but got enough complaints
>about previously-readable posts turning into garbage that I gave it up.
>Besides, I hate fucking MIME-encoded messages like Daniels' e-mail, and
>this makes me as guilty as the people who send me that shit.
>
>Peeve: Newsreaders, real newsreaders, that try to pretend to be HTML
>browsers.
Agent does a pretty good job there. If it sees a message with a
Content-type: text/html, it wants to invoke a browser. Charlie's posts
it handles just fine, yours had the Content-type set, and Agent
decided that it wasn't a browser. I think that's reasonable behaviour.
Glen Quarnstrom
k...@acpub.duke.edu (Strayhorn) wrote:
>In article <334486b2...@news.cyberhighway.net>,
>gl...@cyberhighway.net wrote:
>
>
>> It just happens to be by far the most popular Windows-based
>> newsreader,
>
>Uh, was this meant to be a _compliment_?
Only if you want to pick a fight. If your intention is to piss off
the most people with the least effort, it helps to know where they're
concentrated, right?
--
gl...@cyberhighway.net
Glen Quarnstrom
ia...@aint.com (Iain Brown) wrote:
This was exactly my point, but somehow Charlie either didn't read what
I wrote or misunderstood it, and so took a rather condescending swipe
at Agent, Windows, PCs, and all those other evil things that computer
elitists love to rave on about when things get dull. Evidently things
get dull a lot in the life of a computer weenie.
--
gl...@cyberhighway.net
david parsons
WARNING: Geekery ahead; abandon all hope ye who enter here!
In article <334486b2...@news.cyberhighway.net>,
Glen Quarnstrom <gl...@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
>o r c @ p e l l . c h i . i l . u s (david parsons) wrote:
>
>>In article <slrn5iohf3....@antipope.demon.co.uk>,
>>Charlie Stross <charlie @ antipope . org> wrote:
>>><BLINK>Get a real newsreader<FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
>> .
>> .
>> .
>>>Second, Begin the attribution line (as above) with an HTML comment. Like
>>>this:
>>>
>>><BLINK>Get a real newsreader<FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
>
>Well, this is all the quote provided by Mr. Parsons here, so I can't
>tell whether he's addressing Charlie, me, both of us, or just rambling
>on at random. Since I've gone to the trouble to decode his HTML, I
>suppose I might just as well see if I can make some sense of what
>follows.
>
>> Interesting thing about doing it the way you've been doing it. I've
>> been proofreading my posts with Netscape, in my quest for newsreading
>> purity (and, parenthetically, what the fuck is Free Agent doing
>> trying to interpret HTML in news articles? News is text, damnit, not
>
>It's not Free Agent, Junior, it's Agent, the registered full version.
Oh, well now *that's* different. So now you've not only got broken
software, but you've got broken software that you PAID for. Well,
this is probably time for you to ask your vendor if they've got a
way to make your purchase pay attention to the way news is actually
defined instead of treating it as some sort of poor cousin to html.
>It just happens to be by far the most popular Windows-based
And it's broken. Oh, what a brave new world the PC marketplace is;
nothing like being in the land where standards are nothing more than
an annoying inconvenience to be ignored, and damn those people who
actually adhere to the way they're written.
>> some stupid cheap imitation of html for the people who are too poor
>> to get a IP connection to the outside world.) and when I view your
>
>I don't know where you got that silly notion. Agent requires a full
>ISP connection.
And what, pray tell, is a 'full ISP connection'? A uucp connection
with waffle, a T3 running into mae-west, or some indeterminite thing
in the middle?
>> The easy solution, which won't hurt at all, is, of course, to get
>> a better news reader.
>
>I think this is where I came in.
>
>You just can't win against elitists who think that *their* way is the
>*only* way, and that I somehow am not worthy to read your words of
>wisdom unless I install and learn some variety of Unix and a
>Unix-based newsreader.
No, child, I don't particularly care if you get Unix, NT, Amigados,
or fire up the old C-64 and read news in 40-column glory. You see,
good newsreaders exist for all of them, and it's only your fault
that you didn't fork out money for one of them. But I'll bet you
had a much spiffier installer, so that's easily worth the broken
software.
>In the meantime, I'll snicker at the idea that you're doing EXACTLY
>the same thing that you're whining about; posting HTML in a text-based
>newsgroup.
Perhaps it's HTML in the relaxed adherence to standards that the PC
world uses (ie: if it has anything in it that can be interpreted as
html, it's html) but I could make it a lot prettier if I was trying.
No, I'll stick to regular rfc1036-conformant text (though perhaps not
son-of conformant, since the meanings for SHOULD and SHOULD NOT have,
like the meaning of rfc, changed over time.) and weed out the
ignorant and the stupid.
sensei . co . uk
ay...@netcom.com (Ayse Sercan) spake thusly:
>Besides, I hate fucking MIME-encoded messages like Daniels' e-mail,
Then fuck someone or something else.
Jon
sensei . co . uk
jul...@bongo.tele.com (Julian Macassey) spake thusly:
>There are more choices of Unix newsreaders than there are
>whores in Soho.
That's as maybe, but if you'd met Pete, you'd know that whilst
the number of whores in Soho is high, the choice open to him is
small.
Jonj
Glen Quarnstrom
cha...@antipope.org (Charlie Stross) wrote:
><BLINK>Get a real newsreader<FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
>
>Glen Quarnstrom<gl...@cyberhighway.net> wrote (in article <334486b2...@news.cyberhighway.net>):
>>
>>It's not Free Agent, Junior, it's Agent, the registered full version.
>
>This ain't a problem by me. At least, I _presume_ most people who use
>Agent (a commercial product) do so out of choice? And they use it on
Correct.
>Windows -- again, out of choice? Then it's their fault if they've paid
>for a brain-dead product that doesn't work properly. (And I'm inclined
You have yet to establish that it *doesn't* work properly.
>to think the net would be a better place if everybody who _voluntarily_
>'surfed' it using Windows disappeared tomorrow. But that's another
>jihad.)
It's also another illustration of condescending compu-nerdy elitism.
Besides, using Agent to read news hardly qualifies as "surfing."
>>I don't know where you got that silly notion. Agent requires a full
>>ISP connection.
>
>What's a full ISP connection, daddy?
How the hell should I know? I'm just a poor farm boy. I don't know
nuthin' about these infernal machines except where the ON button is.
>(Clue: are you talking about a live NNTP connection, or can it maintain
Yes.
>its own offline spool? Does it -- bwahahaha! -- force you to keep a server
Of course it's an offline reader, although it can be used to read mail
online too. I'm flattered that you think I'm a good enough writer
that I could post my stuff live rather than laboriously compose,
revise, and edit it offline, though.
>>I'm sure that Forte will be pleased to hear your considered evaluation
>>of their excellent newsreader. Agent users are, presumably, following
>>UseNet conventions.
>
>If you read what Orc wrote, you'll see he was referring to the official
I read what he said, which was that he was not sure of the specs, and
was only guessing.
>usenet specifications. You, however, were simply guessing. You are
>WRONG. He is RIGHT. Your use of 'presumably' is an acceptable fig-leaf
>if you choose to admit your error at this point.
I was wrong about *what,* exactly? If you'll point out my error, I'll
be happy to admit it.
>>You just can't win against elitists who think that *their* way is the
>>*only* way, and that I somehow am not worthy to read your words of
>>wisdom unless I install and learn some variety of Unix and a
>>Unix-based newsreader.
>
>Wrong. We expect you to use a newsreader that follows the standards and
>is not broken. If Forte fix their product, fine. Otherwise, I think you've
As I said, you have yet to establish that it doesn't follow standards,
or that it's "broken."
>got grounds for a class action lawsuit against them, or whatever else
>you can do to someone who sells you software for communicating via a
>specified protocol and which doesn't behave as advertised.
And these specified protocols are engraved on stone tablets somewhere,
I suppose, and are never changed, and are followed religiously by
everybody? Riiiiight.
Either the UseNet standard provides for HTML or it doesn't. If it
does, then Agent is handling it in what seems to be an elegant and
logical way. If it doesn't, then d'orc is the one violating the
standards.
>>In the meantime, I'll snicker at the idea that you're doing EXACTLY
>>the same thing that you're whining about; posting HTML in a text-based
>>newsgroup. How you can rationalize that it's better when you do it
>>than when some lamer posting with Netscape does it escapes me, but
>>then, I'm not a computer weenie, so what do I know?
>
>I'm posting an HTML line in my postings specifically to FUCK UP people
>who try to read news using Netscape 4. Unless you WANT the whole of usenet
The point is that I'm NOT using Netscape or MSIE to read or post news.
Besides, if you'd taken the time to read what I've written on this
topic before you decided to attack my choice of hardware and software,
you might have realized that I said that your method didn't bother me,
and that I agreed with and supported it. It's orc's posts that cause
a minor, annoying problem. Now, if *your* way works, then the obvious
solution is for orc to do it your way. If your way *doesn't* work, as
orc implied, then you're hardly in a position to be lecturing me on
the topic, are you?
>to turn into a mess of quivering HTML posted by a million "me too" losers
>who assume that Lamescape's latest is The State Of The Art, you really
>should admit that I've got a point. If in the course of such postings a
Of course you've got a point (which I agreed with some time back) but
I doubt that even you believe that this little token battle is going
to have the slightest effect on the inevitable. I'm on your side in
this futile exercise, and you (and/or orc) are doing your best to
antagonize me? How smart is that?
>bug is uncovered in ANOTHER newsreader, well, get the manufacturers to
>fix it!
I doubt that it's a bug. It works very well to allow me to bypass
most of the binaries, .gifs, .jpgs, .wavs, zips, and HTML messages
that have been cluttering up newsgroups the last few months. If orc
wants to add himself to that group automatically, it's really no big
deal, I suppose.
>Shit. Why is usenet these days overrun by useless fucks who couldn't write
>their own newsreader if you socked them over the head with a copy of
>the s-lang manual? What are things coming to??
You really don't think that everybody who reads news should be a
programmer, do you? If that were true, you'd likely be out of a job.
You've always struck me as a reasonable guy, Charlie, which is why I
was a bit taken aback when you jumped on me about this, particularly
when I was reporting on what happened with *orc's* style, not yours.
Besides, Netscape and MSIE are a fact of life, and are going to be
getting even more ubiquitous in the future. The next version of MSIE
is going to be integrated into WIN95, and will probably make it even
easier to use for the default newsreader. Seems to me that if the
defenders of plain ASCII in UseNet want to fight a battle against the
creeping crud of musical, colorized cartoon postings, it ill behooves
them to antagonize all the people using Agent, which, like it or not,
*is* a "real" newsreader, not a browser.
Another thing while I'm ranting here: I've never asked nor expected
any quarter from peevers for *what* I write or how I write it.
Attacking me for my choice of hardware and software pissed me off the
first time it happened, but I admit there was some reason for it,
however small. Jumping my ass in this case makes no sense to me,
however. Nobody's attacking Jenny for using AOL. Nobody's telling
Kelly that *he* has a "broken" newsreader, and that he's a blooming
idiot for using Windoze. But all of a sudden when I tell orc what
happens in Agent when he uses the "Content: html" tag in his messages,
you're all over me like stink on stark.
OK, I feel better now. Gimme your best shot.
--
gl...@cyberhighway.net
Charlie Stross
<BLINK>Use a real newsreader<FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
Glen Quarnstrom<gl...@cyberhighway.net> ranted
(in article <33417800...@news.cyberhighway.net>):
>cha...@antipope.org (Charlie Stross) wrote:
:
>> You, however, were simply guessing. You are
>>WRONG. He is RIGHT. Your use of 'presumably' is an acceptable fig-leaf
>>if you choose to admit your error at this point.
>
>I was wrong about *what,* exactly? If you'll point out my error, I'll
>be happy to admit it.
Sure. See below ...
>>Wrong. We expect you to use a newsreader that follows the standards and
>>is not broken. If Forte fix their product, fine. Otherwise, I think you've
>
>As I said, you have yet to establish that it doesn't follow standards,
>or that it's "broken."
See below ...
>And these specified protocols are engraved on stone tablets somewhere,
>I suppose, and are never changed, and are followed religiously by
>everybody? Riiiiight.
>
>Either the UseNet standard provides for HTML or it doesn't.
BINGO!
Usenet, Glen, predates HTML by more than a decade.
The header lines which may be used in a usenet posting were initially
set forth in RFC822, then updated -- 1035 being the most recent official
version.
AFAIK, it is acceptable to add header lines for client use if the tags
begin with X- (as in: X-No-archive: , X-posting-host:, and so on). It
is NOT acceptable to start mingling bastardized HTTP/1.0 headers in
with NNTP headers.
Orc punted a bogus header at your software. It fell over, because the
RIGHT thing to do with information you don't understand (in a network
context) is to pass it on unaltered, or ignore it.
The standard is not engraved on stone -- it's engraved in a hundred
different pieces of software, all of which _try_ to adhere to it,
because to do aught else will cause havoc, confusion, and incompatability.
Protocols like NNTP exist to facilitate communication. They do so by
making it feasible to freely exchange messages formatted in a specific
way. The golden rule is: if it ain't in the spec, ignore it and try to
continue processing as usual. (Unless of course you're trying to do
something really critical -- unlike nooz -- in which case the thing
to do on receiving unexpected input is to sound the siren, light the
lamp, and launch all missiles.)
Your newsreader is broken; it tries to handle the headers in a bogus
manner. No matter that it seems logical to you -- nobody _else_ does it
that way.
>If it
>does, then Agent is handling it in what seems to be an elegant and
>logical way. If it doesn't, then d'orc is the one violating the
>standards.
You have, quite simply, got things entirely upside down.
Orc is completely right to call you on it. You're wrong to respond on it;
the appropriate response is to complain to the vendor. Bug report it.
> ...... I'm on your side in
>this futile exercise, and you (and/or orc) are doing your best to
>antagonize me? How smart is that?
Because you go on to say ...
>>bug is uncovered in ANOTHER newsreader, well, get the manufacturers to
>>fix it!
>
>I doubt that it's a bug.
Within the meaning of the specifications for usenet news, it IS a bug.
Or at least a feature that should be user-configurable and indicated as
being strictly a hack that should NOT be relied on, because it is vendor-
specific and not honoured by other newsreaders and not part of the RFC
and liable to go away in some future release of MS Usenet For Losers(TM).
>>Shit. Why is usenet these days overrun by useless fucks who couldn't write
>>their own newsreader if you socked them over the head with a copy of
>>the s-lang manual? What are things coming to??
>
>You really don't think that everybody who reads news should be a
>programmer, do you? If that were true, you'd likely be out of a job.
Yes, I do. And I'd rather usenet was a _lot_ smaller. But I'm just an
old fuckwit who remembers what it was like in the middle years (not even
a true old-timer, like some of the people not mixing it in here).
>You've always struck me as a reasonable guy, Charlie, which is why I
>was a bit taken aback when you jumped on me about this, particularly
>when I was reporting on what happened with *orc's* style, not yours.
>Besides, Netscape and MSIE are a fact of life, and are going to be
>getting even more ubiquitous in the future. The next version of MSIE
>is going to be integrated into WIN95, and will probably make it even
>easier to use for the default newsreader.
Chortle. I've just been having fun with Microsoft's idea of how to
handle web/OS integration. Suffice to say, I was not entirely in favour
of Windows before ... but now I consider it a major security risk.
>Another thing while I'm ranting here: I've never asked nor expected
>any quarter from peevers for *what* I write or how I write it.
>Attacking me for my choice of hardware and software pissed me off the
>first time it happened, but I admit there was some reason for it,
>however small. Jumping my ass in this case makes no sense to me,
>however.
We're jumping on your ass because you started *COMPLAINING ABOUT ORC*
because you interpreted his postings as indicating that *HIS* software
was buggy, whereas in point of fact it's *YOURS* that is not behaving
itself.
Do I need to repeat that in 72-point gothic bold garamond before you get
the message?
We're simply administering the wire brush, a bit limply but with sufficient
vigour to abrade the haemorrhoids of hubris that tickled you to assume that
you were right, and we were wrong.
--
Charlie Stross charlie @ antipope.org http://www.antipope.org/
"Hello. I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature file and I
will bring good luck. Also, your computer may not crash at midnight on
December 31st, 1999."
<IMG SRC="COM1:" ALT="Help keep usenet a web-browser free zone!">
Bob O Brien
david parsons <o...@pell.chi.il.us> wrote:
>
> Oh, well now *that's* different. So now you've not only got broken
> software, but you've got broken software that you PAID for. Well,
> this is probably time for you to ask your vendor if they've got a
> way to make your purchase pay attention to the way news is actually
> defined instead of treating it as some sort of poor cousin to html.
Peeve: trn 3.5 is similarly hobbled, it wants to load something
to view orc's posts.
!Peeve: instead of making assumptions, it throws up its
figurative hands and asks the user to make a decision.
Hitting (v)erbose twice makes it shut up and show the entire post.
Angus McIntyre
In article <3332e...@poppy.anglianet.co.uk>,
sensei @ anglianet . co . uk (Jon Parry-McCulloch) wrote:
> ... if you'd met Pete, you'd know that whilst the number
>of whores in Soho is high, the choice open to him is small.
In terms of numbers, or in terms of stature?
Speaking of members of the oldest profession, it's always been a peeve
of mine that when walking through the seedier areas of major cities, I
rarely fail to escape getting propositioned. I used to live in a
declining red-light area in Brussels - in fact, I had a series of
Romanian lap-dancers as upstairs neighbours - and my homeward journey
along the Emile Jacqmainlaan was usually punctuated by cries of
"Monsieur veut un petit 'look'?" from the flat-capped simpletons outside
the strip joints and the frantic tapping of the portly whore behind the
window of the first dive after Place de Brouckere.
I've always assumed that the representatives of the demi-monde would
only bother with men who looked either (a) absurdly prosperous, or (b)
sexually desperate. Since my wardrobe consists of the kind of clothes
that most students burn after their first year at university I clearly
couldn't have been mistaken for a wandering Rothschild. The inevitable
and unpalatable conclusion is that I must look as if I couldn't possibly
get laid any other way, and as if I might actually be willing to pay for
the privilege of a sweaty five-minute tumble with one of the ancient and
repulsive hags who frequented that particular quarter. This does not
exactly work wonders for one's ego, let me tell you.
I thought for a while that it was just Brussels, until I was passing
through Soho one day, and a woman dressed like a wealthy American
tourist singled me out from the crowd to ask me "Nice girls?" in a
conspiratorial tone of voice. I had the momentary urge to freeze her
with a haughty glare and ask "My good woman - do I *look* like the kind
of man who frequents prostitutes?" but I was afraid that she might
answer in the affirmative.
On the plus side, I still get spontaneously offered drugs on the street
by dealers in places like Camden Town, with a flattering emphasis on the
'younger' items (i.e. grass and E's) from their pharmacopeia. I don't
mind having the air of a drug-crazed degenerate, but thinking that you
look like the kind of saddo who has to pay for sex(*) is extremely
discouraging.
Angus "Not that kind of boy" McIntyre
(*) Yeah, I know that *everybody* pays for sex, one way or another.
But in the better relationships, the bill isn't usually presented
immediately.
--
an...@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~angus
"I am here by the will of the people ... and "Metrophage"
I will not leave until I get my raincoat back." Richard Kadrey
Charlie Stross
<BLINK>Use a real newsreader<FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
Angus McIntyre<an...@pobox.com> wrote (in article <AF59DD5A...@193.105.194.21>):
>On the plus side, I still get spontaneously offered drugs on the street
>by dealers in places like Camden Town
Consider yerself lucky.
I was drinking with the ObT the other week, in his reincarnation as a
London meedja ho', in the vicinity of said alternative market. His
plaint was that he works in Camden, lives a couple of miles away -- and
every time he gets the tube home, one or more people try to _buy_ drugs
from him.
Which is worse? Being mistaken for a drug-crazed degenerate, or being
mistaken for a drug-DEALING degenerate? Especially in an area with as
heavy a police presence as Camden ...
Nosy
<In article <slrn5j8oe6....@antipope.demon.co.uk> cha...@antipope.org (Charlie Stross) writes:
<<BLINK>Use a real newsreader<FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
Shouldn't that be "Get a real newsreader"?
<Angus McIntyre<an...@pobox.com> wrote (in article <AF59DD5A...@193.105.194.21>):
<>On the plus side, I still get spontaneously offered drugs on the street
<>by dealers in places like Camden Town
< I was drinking with the ObT the other week, in his reincarnation as a
< London meedja ho', in the vicinity of said alternative market. His
< plaint was that he works in Camden, lives a couple of miles away -- and
< every time he gets the tube home, one or more people try to _buy_ drugs
< from him.
< Which is worse? Being mistaken for a drug-crazed degenerate, or being
< mistaken for a drug-DEALING degenerate? Especially in an area with as
< heavy a police presence as Camden ...
Well, if the ObT would just quit carrying around flasks
of that stuff he calls "Tea" mebbe he'd not look so,
so, well...
<<IMG SRC="COM1:" ALT="Help keep usenet a web-browser free zone!">
ObPeeve: Netscrape.
Angus McIntyre
In article <slrn5j8oe6....@antipope.demon.co.uk>,
cha...@antipope.org (Charlie Stross) wrote:
>Angus McIntyre<an...@pobox.com> wrote (in article
><AF59DD5A...@193.105.194.21>):
>
>>On the plus side, I still get spontaneously offered drugs on the street
>>by dealers in places like Camden Town
>
>Consider yerself lucky ... the ObT ... works in Camden ... and ...
>people try to _buy_ drugs from him ... Which is worse? ... Especially
>in an area with as heavy a police presence as Camden ...
This does not surprise me. In fact, it's quite possible that what I
interpreted as attempts to sell were in fact offers to *buy* (when
you've got someone mumbling 'speed, coke, hash ...' at you out of the
side of their mouth, it's sometimes hard to make out the nature of the
exact commercial transaction that's being proposed; this is why verbs
are considered non-optional in most well-constructed sentences).
Camden - I refer to Camden in London, not to Camden, NJ, although for
all I know it may be true there as well - has a higher-than-normal
proportion of Fucked-Up People. In fact, it has several generations of
Fucked-Up People (People of Up-Fuckedness? Differently-Copulated
Persons?), ranging from puffy-faced derelicts clutching cans of Special
in the tube station, down to fresh-faced teenagers scouring the streets
for someone who'll sell them something to make their Saturday nights
move and shimmer. The latter group in particular have no sense of
discrimination, and will try to buy drugs from *anyone*. Most of them
still tend to shy away instinctively from anything in blue serge with
big boots and a walkie-talkie, but everyone else is fair game.
This suggests a strategy for Claudio. All he needs to do is to dress for
work in shiny black shoes, dark blue or grey trousers with knife-edge
creases, and, crucially, a well-ironed short-sleeved shirt in either
light blue or white. In short, in the unofficial uniform of every
off-duty cop in the United Kingdom. I don't know if it's true in the USA
- what's the well-dressed Jack-Booted Thug wearing these days? - but
half the cops in the UK seem to affect a 'civilian dress' that bears an
uncanny resemblance to their working clothes. This is particularly
useful at rock festivals, where 'spotting the plainclothes cops' is
almost a formality.
Angus "... and a little military moustache" McIntyre
--
an...@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~angus
"Once a year of inspiration could be written in a day.
But what's the point in writing when you've nothing left to say?"
["Ixion pinned", Blyth Power]
Julian Macassey
In article <AF5AD5D4...@193.105.194.21>,
Angus McIntyre <an...@pobox.com> wrote:
>In article <slrn5j8oe6....@antipope.demon.co.uk>,
>
On matters of drug dealing, cops and their sartorial style:
>This suggests a strategy for Claudio. All he needs to do is to dress for
>work in shiny black shoes, dark blue or grey trousers with knife-edge
>creases, and, crucially, a well-ironed short-sleeved shirt in either
>light blue or white. In short, in the unofficial uniform of every
>off-duty cop in the United Kingdom. I don't know if it's true in the USA
>- what's the well-dressed Jack-Booted Thug wearing these days? - but
>half the cops in the UK seem to affect a 'civilian dress' that bears an
>uncanny resemblance to their working clothes.
Over here in the YooEss, we have of course yer standard issue
uniform rozzer and yer Detectives. Of course detectives dress like
detectives.
But here in the land of entrapment, we have "undercover" cops.
In other words people who will misrepresent themselves, lie, cheat,
steal, cajole and break the law in order to get others to break the
law so they can be arrested. Why is this? Well the legal/justice
bidness has made it so that this is about the only way left to gather
admissable evidence. Yet another example of losing freedoms, so crims
can have more - another peeve for another time.
But, most undercover fuzz pretend to be in the drug bidness.
So, they try an affect the style of your serious drug desperado. This
should mean they look like Southern rock musicians (Greg Alman, Levon
Helm, Dr, John). But no, they are cops, often also ex-military. So of
course being unwashed and unkempt is out. But they need the hair and
beard stuff. Washed, styled hair and neatly trimmed beards. So, if
you are in a dodgy situation and some guy who looks like an architect
is hanging about, he is the "undercover cop".
--
Julian Macassey, 415.647.2217
alfi...@chaffee.net
On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 17:51:40 +0000, cha...@antipope.org (Charlie
Stross) pontificated
>
>(buncha HTML garbage deleted)
>
>(Clue: are you talking about a live NNTP connection, or can it maintain
>its own offline spool? Does it -- bwahahaha! -- force you to keep a server
>connection up while you're reading news? Can it deal with service via UUCP?
>Do you want Dolby with that DS-3?)
>
Clue:
Yes,Yes
No
Yes
OF Course NOT
>--
>Charlie Stross charlie @ antipope.org http://www.antipope.org/
>
>"Hello. I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature file and I
>will bring good luck. Also, your computer may not crash at midnight on
>December 31st, 1999."
>
OH GOD how cutsey a sig, Charlie, Talk about drivel on the net
BTW, from comp.os.linux.misc
**Quoted text**
I'm looking for an off-line news-reader for Linux that operates in a
similar way to Forte Agent on Windows. It should allow me to download
the new headers for the selected groups, disconnect, select the
threads I want to read and then reconnect to download the articles.
This is a good way of reading articles in high volume groups where
only a small number of threads are of interest.
I've installed skim which operates in this way, but it's quite a basic
news-reader. Are there any other offline readers for linux?
Alternatively, is it possible to coerce an on-line reader into
operating in the way I want? Could an on-line reader be made to read
articles downloaded by some other program, such as skim? Are there
patches for on-line readers to convert them into off-line readers?
Thanks
--
_________________________________ o
_______________________________________
(`._ __--'/
_______________________ __,+\-\__ ____----~~~~~ .'
( )|/'( ) __-~
________________________ ~~ ~~ ______----~~~
al...@mj12.demon.co.uk
**end quoted text**
JIM
If you want a cute sig, insert here!
Julian Macassey
In article <33355afb...@news.dx.net>, <alfi...@chaffee.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 17:51:40 +0000, cha...@antipope.org (Charlie
>Stross) pontificated
>>
>>(buncha HTML garbage deleted)
>>Do you want Dolby with that DS-3?)
>
>
>**Quoted text**
>I'm looking for an off-line news-reader for Linux that operates in a
>similar way to Forte Agent on Windows. It should allow me to download
>the new headers for the selected groups, disconnect, select the
>threads I want to read and then reconnect to download the articles.
Wow! A means of grabbing news and reading off line? That would
be a novel idea! I'm sure that's never been done before.
Cluetime: uucp, inews, trn
Runs on Linux and gasp! Unix. Was running years, yes years,
before the PeeCee owners were more cogniscent of anything besides
Fidonet and V22 modems.
So, all you whiners with cheezy PeeCee software, catch a clue,
spend $40 or so on some Linux CDs and run real news, not an imitation.
Furthermore, a peever has already written how you should do
this in a recent version of the Linux journal.
--
Julian Macassey, 415.647.2217
Charlie Stross
<BLINK>Use a real newsreader<FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
alfi...@chaffee.net<alfi...@chaffee.net> drooled (in article <33355afb...@news.dx.net>):
>On Wed, 19 Mar 1997 17:51:40 +0000, cha...@antipope.org (Charlie
>Stross) pontificated
>>
>>"Hello. I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature file and I
>>will bring good luck. Also, your computer may not crash at midnight on
>>December 31st, 1999."
>>
>OH GOD how cutsey a sig, Charlie, Talk about drivel on the net
It's a sig. Get with the program. Don't _you_ want one too?
>
>BTW, from comp.os.linux.misc
>
>**Quoted text**
>I'm looking for an off-line news-reader for Linux that operates in a
And your point is ...?
-- Charlie (puzzled) Stross
--
Charlie Stross charlie @ antipope.org http://www.antipope.org/
"Hello. I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature file and I
will bring good luck. Also, your computer may not crash at midnight on
December 31st, 1999."
<IMG SRC="COM1:" ALT="Help keep usenet a web-browser free zone!">
Nosy
<In article <5h1go4$s...@shellx.best.com> ob...@best.com (Bob O Brien) writes:
< david parsons <o...@pell.chi.il.us> wrote:
< >
< > Oh, well now *that's* different. So now you've not only got broken
< > software, but you've got broken software that you PAID for. Well,
< > this is probably time for you to ask your vendor if they've got a
< > way to make your purchase pay attention to the way news is actually
< > defined instead of treating it as some sort of poor cousin to html.
< Peeve: trn 3.5 is similarly hobbled, it wants to load something
< to view orc's posts.
That's the first sensible thing I've read about trn.
Just about any sentient being ought to want to load *something*
upon viewing one of D'orcs nntp emissions, it seems to me.
< !Peeve: instead of making assumptions, it throws up its
< figurative hands and asks the user to make a decision.
Is that a great newsreader, or what?
< Hitting (v)erbose twice makes it shut up and show the entire post.
Kinda slow to take a hint, O'Bob is...
david parsons
<bold>It's the death of the net<blink><font face=wingdings>
In article <5h1go4$s...@shellx.best.com>, Bob O Brien <ob...@best.com> wrote:
>david parsons <o...@pell.chi.il.us> wrote:
>>
>> Oh, well now *that's* different. So now you've not only got broken
>> software, but you've got broken software that you PAID for. Well,
>> this is probably time for you to ask your vendor if they've got a
>> way to make your purchase pay attention to the way news is actually
>> defined instead of treating it as some sort of poor cousin to html.
>
>Peeve: trn 3.5 is similarly hobbled, it wants to load something
>to view orc's posts.
Aaack.
It's the apocolypse.
Well, I suppose that in the brave new world of everything being
html, all the people who matter will have orgasms over
<bold>peeve:</bold><italic>it's the apocolypse</italic>
while fossils like myself will be hunted in the streets for the
temerity of actually wanting to read the damned posts.
____
david parsons \bi/ "Why do we have to hide from the police, Daddy?"
\/ "Because we use vi, son. They use emacs."
-- dave fischer (da...@cca.org)
Glen Quarnstrom
o...@pell.chi.il.us (david parsons) wrote:
><bold>It's the death of the net<blink><font face=wingdings>
>In article <5h1go4$s...@shellx.best.com>, Bob O Brien <ob...@best.com> wrote:
>>david parsons <o...@pell.chi.il.us> wrote:
<"broken software" strawman torched>
>>Peeve: trn 3.5 is similarly hobbled, it wants to load something
>>to view orc's posts.
> Well, I suppose that in the brave new world of everything being
> html, all the people who matter will have orgasms over
>
> <bold>peeve:</bold><italic>it's the apocolypse</italic>
>
> while fossils like myself will be hunted in the streets for the
> temerity of actually wanting to read the damned posts.
Well, if self-indulgent fossils like you continue to insist on making
it difficult for others who just want to read the damned posts, then
your fate will be well deserved.
--
gl...@cyberhighway.net
Pete Young
Julian Macassey <jul...@netcom.com> spluttered indignantly:
>
> Now tell me, does Feorag dress up as Pete or does Pete dress
>up as Feorag?
Rats. Looks as though our secret is out. Which one of us is going
to tell Charlie?
cd skogsberg
><BLINK>Use a real newsreader<FONT FACE="WingDings"><FONT SIZE="+3">
>alfi...@chaffee.net<alfi...@chaffee.net> drooled (in article <33355afb...@news.dx.net>):
>>BTW, from comp.os.linux.misc
>>
>>**Quoted text**
>>I'm looking for an off-line news-reader for Linux that operates in a
>
>And your point is ...?
Agent (and, by extension, FreeAgen) isn't such a crappy newsreader as
some people on alt.peeves make it out to be. I (using FA) have no
problems with orc's posts. It may be that Glen has some other problems
with his computer. I dunno.
><IMG SRC="COM1:" ALT="Help keep usenet a web-browser free zone!">
Nice one.
cd
--
Long live the new flesh!
cd skogsberg 52/30 days left c...@alfakonsult.se
david parsons
In article <slrn5j7gv0....@antipope.demon.co.uk>,
Charlie Stross <charlie @ antipope . org> wrote:
>
>
>Glen Quarnstrom<gl...@cyberhighway.net> ranted
>>And these specified protocols are engraved on stone tablets somewhere,
>>I suppose, and are never changed, and are followed religiously by
>>everybody? Riiiiight.
>>
>>Either the UseNet standard provides for HTML or it doesn't.
>
>BINGO!
>
>Usenet, Glen, predates HTML by more than a decade.
>
>The header lines which may be used in a usenet posting were initially
>set forth in RFC822, then updated -- 1035 being the most recent official
>version.
1036, actually. 1035 is a domain names document.
Interesting thing about the bogus newsreader catcher. I just had
a runaround with a fairly clueless individual in one of the scsi
groups who saw the header and sent me a "don't post html" note.
So I explained that news wasn't html, and this was a way to catch
broken newsreaders.
He sent back a response saying no, it's html, because Content-Type:
is a html header, and you shouldn't post html because it's icky.
Umm, no, it's usenet news, and that has nothing to do with html;
if your newsreader is interpreting this header as anything other
than noise, it's broken.
He sent back a moderately spittle-flecked post saying LOUDLY that
"no, it's html, and my newsreader(*) is PERFECT in every way."
[* one of the variants of Agent, no doubt]
No, really, it's usenet news, but I would welcome any reference
from either rfc1036 or son-of-1036 that said that content-type
was a reserved header.
He screamed back "I HATE HTML AND I'M GOING TO KILLFILE YOU, PLUG
MY EARS, AND HOLD MY BREATH UNTIL YOU STOP DOING IT!!!!!!!"
I'll bet he'll turn an appealing shade of blue before he passes
out.
Peeve: it would be considered mean to randomise my from address
and put the <blink> tags in a group where I actually try to get
useful information, so I'll need to resist the temptation to
troll the Microsoft customers.
!Peeve: I just checked rfc1036 again. ``Any unrecognised headers are
allowed and will be passed through unchanged.'' Roughly translated,
Glen, that means you need to get a working newsreader.
____
david parsons \bi/ Don't treat news as HTML. It's the law.
\/
Glen Quarnstrom
c...@alfakonsult.se (cd skogsberg) wrote:
>Agent (and, by extension, FreeAgen) isn't such a crappy newsreader as
>some people on alt.peeves make it out to be. I (using FA) have no
>problems with orc's posts. It may be that Glen has some other problems
>with his computer. I dunno.
Nope. As I pointed out, Agent *will* display a message in "raw"
content, which, if I interpret Charlie's comments correctly, is
exactly what it's supposed to do. FA does this, as it doesn't have
capabilities to decode much of anything. Agent will decode MIME and
several other types of encoding, which it then represents with an
icon. You can then choose how to deal with that particular message.
This is a handy way to ignore all the dreck being posted in text
newsgroups from people using Netscape and MSIE. Orc deliberately
chooses to include himself in this group when he adds the "Content:
HTML" line. Then he shouts the "broken newsreader" mantra in a futile
attempt to detract from the fact that he's the one playing games.
It's not that big a deal for me to be able to read his posts if I
choose to do so. It's even simpler with the new version of Agent
which just came out this week. I just don't see what he thinks he's
gaining by forcing others to have to make adjustments for his posting
style.
--
gl...@cyberhighway.net
Jason M. Sullivan
In article <3345f674...@news.cyberhighway.net>,
Glen Quarnstrom <gl...@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
>
>Nope. As I pointed out, Agent *will* display a message in "raw"
>content, which, if I interpret Charlie's comments correctly, is
>exactly what it's supposed to do. FA does this, as it doesn't have
>capabilities to decode much of anything. Agent will decode MIME and
>several other types of encoding, which it then represents with an
>icon. You can then choose how to deal with that particular message.
>
>This is a handy way to ignore all the dreck being posted in text
>newsgroups from people using Netscape and MSIE. Orc deliberately
>chooses to include himself in this group when he adds the "Content:
>HTML" line. Then he shouts the "broken newsreader" mantra in a futile
>attempt to detract from the fact that he's the one playing games.
>It's not that big a deal for me to be able to read his posts if I
>choose to do so. It's even simpler with the new version of Agent
>which just came out this week. I just don't see what he thinks he's
>gaining by forcing others to have to make adjustments for his posting
>style.
In a sense, what I'm going to say here has all been said before (by some
that are much more knowledgeable than I). However, you still steadfastly
cling to the assertion that you Just Don't Get It. Whether that's actually
true or not (who knows, maybe you like poking a stick into this particular
hornet's nest), is something probably worth addressing; but I'll let
someone else take care of that. Follow me here...
Usenet originally started as an agreement between several individuals on
a network to pass around information in a particular way. There were
only a couple of computers on the network way back then (early 80's), so
the standards worked themselves out pretty quickly.
This small network grew pretty quickly and somehow came to include the
DARPA network, and other networks around the world. It grew more or
less of it's own volition, and the original cabal of people developed a
standard standard making process (the RFC or "Request for Comments"
process). This had two benefits: It encouraged development of new
stuff, and it made sure everyone knew how the new stuff worked so that
they could make other stuff that worked with or worked like the new
stuff. In other words: "Compatibility is Cool". I'll get back to that.
Usenet News evolved in such a way. The RFC system has literally
hundreds of papers discussing the transmission, storage, and format of
Usenet News. RFC 1036 (which has been mentioned before) discusses the
format of news messages. All newsreaders are obliged to follow the
instructions of RFC 1036, or they risk not processing news properly.
Compatibility is Cool.
There are two types of header lines in a news message: Required and
Optional. Required headers are such things as "From:" and "Subject:"
lines; optional headers include the "Reply-To:" and "Sender:" lines.
According to RFC 1036, newsreaders are safe to ignore optional lines
and still expect to "read" the message. The full text of this RFC is
available here (http://www.pasteur.fr/cgi-bin/mfs/01/10xx/1036) if you
want to read it.
Ok, the problem lies in the definition of "safely". The people who make
Netscape (and other browsers), have decided that it's ok to place the
(optional) "Content type:" header line in that section so that browsers
can see it and process HTML tags in the article accordingly. Technically,
it is. Usenet was designed to be easily extensible. One might even
consider this "progress"
The argument against that is that news postings with HTML gobbledegook in
them look like so much crap to the majority of newsreaders, and that this
"Content-Type:" header seems to have been sprung on an unaware Usenet
community without regard to the established methods of standards (in fact,
there's already a standard that probably should have been followed for
this: RFC 1505. Compatibility is Cool).
Netscape and their ilk have therefor ascribed to the hight of hubris and
rudeness by attempting to arbitrarily define standards for the Usenet
community without first consulting said community. No, there's no cabal
here, but there _is_ an accepted way of doing things. By doing things
otherwise, a gauntlet has been thrown.
The guerilla response is to encode things with this arbitrary format in
such a way as to render them unusable to those that follow it. Civil
Disobedience, if you will. If the Browser-Thumpers insist on treading on
the establishment, we will make their Followers (and, by extension, them)
pay. We can't scream "Look at the RFC" to Netscape, because their response
would probably be "So?" You are now caught in the middle (an unenviable
place) of a religious war.
The question remains "Is Glen's Newsreader Broken?" Well, maybe. By
deciding to side with the Browser-Thumpers, Forte has (in effect) sided
with the forces of chaos and anarchy. While not technically wrong,
they're certainly not very nice. They are of the opinion "Might makes
Right" without stopping to see if they actually are Right (or have Might).
Where does that leave you? Well, that really depends on who you want to
read. A.P. is rapidly developing into a browser-hostile zone, and
browser-friendly newsreaders are going to have a tough time of it. I
suspect it won't end soon, and I suspect David won't be the only one.
The short answer? Get a different newsreader, or learn to love WingDings.
--
//// Jason M. Sullivan -O jason.m....@worldnet.att.net
|c-oo <A HREF="http://sunsite.unc.edu/splay/Jason/">Jason</A>
\_- "Life's a compromise... Fortunately, it's also a cereal!"
david parsons
In article <3345f674...@news.cyberhighway.net>,
Glen Quarnstrom <gl...@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
>newsgroups from people using Netscape and MSIE. Orc deliberately
>chooses to include himself in this group when he adds the "Content:
>HTML" line. Then he shouts the "broken newsreader" mantra in a futile
>attempt to detract from the fact that he's the one playing games.
Eh? I don't think I've made any attempt to hide that I'm trying
to convince people to stop using newsreaders that treat news as
html for the poor and downtrodden (or, as you quaintly put it,
"play".)
>I just don't see what he thinks he's
>gaining by forcing others to have to make adjustments for his posting
>style.
You mean plain text, following rfc1036 conventions? I know, it's
pretty dull when compared to the high-quality html that litters the
net, but some of us still remember the days when content mattered.
If I can stop people from using Netscape to post (does IE allow
people to spew html-encoded goo to usenet?) I'll consider it a win.
But at this point using netscape 4, in full vomit-forth-html
multimedia splendor, is beginning to seem like an option. Yeah, so
nobody who doesn't use netscape will be able to read my posts, but
enough people have enbraced stupid "extensions" to news so that I
won't be annoyed by the other people that you Mozilla, the worst of
all possible newsreaders. Just what is it about the internet,
anyway? It's as if every stupid idea that comes along is leapt on as
the next best thing, from converting news into a poor cousin of html
to MIME, a wonderful way of making formerly readable text into some
mish-mash that's painful to read unless you've got one of the slow
decoders available to it, all the way to enthusiastic support of the
land barons who control popular namespace and are busily showing why
it's a really stupid idea to give capitalists a monopoly. Having trn
go over to the stupid side is really proof of something, though I
can't really say what -- I can see a future where every newsreader
first starts doing mime, then html, and then goes the way of netscape
where, Hey!, you might as well decode EVERYTHING as html because
that's what people expect now.
____
david parsons \bi/ if you've got a read news as news button, why don't you
\/ use it?
gl...@cyberhighway.net
In article <5hk71k$n...@pell.pell.chi.il.us>,
o...@pell.chi.il.us (david parsons) wrote:
>
> In article <3345f674...@news.cyberhighway.net>,
> Glen Quarnstrom <gl...@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
> >newsgroups from people using Netscape and MSIE. Orc deliberately
> If I can stop people from using Netscape to post (does IE allow
> people to spew html-encoded goo to usenet?) I'll consider it a win.
Yeah, I'm sure it does, although I've never tried to use it for posting.
There's an option to check for "HTML" format for outgoing mail or news,
though.
> But at this point using netscape 4, in full vomit-forth-html
> multimedia splendor, is beginning to seem like an option. Yeah, so
[...]
> can't really say what -- I can see a future where every newsreader
> first starts doing mime, then html, and then goes the way of netscape
> where, Hey!, you might as well decode EVERYTHING as html because
> that's what people expect now.
But do you seriously think that you'll have any effect at all on this
creeping "elegance?" If all the Peeves regulars were to join you in your
crusade, would it make the slightest bit of difference to the rest of the
net? I haven't noticed any influx of HTML posts here or in similar
groups like a.f.u. There's an increasing number of them in some of the
less disciplined groups, but that seems to indicate to me that tactics
other than what you're using woud be more effective.
Feel free to convince me otherwise, however, and I may join you. I've
never shied from tilting at windmills.
Ironically, I'm posting this from Deja News, which tells me it's using
Mozilla to post this.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet